This episode wraps up our Two Docs Talk Natural Products series spotlighting marijuana, psilocybin, and magic mushrooms as promising therapeutic alternatives. Dr. Kirvin-Dawes and Dr. Koren unveil the mysteries of THC and CBD, as cultural nuances of pain management in Jamaica, we also explore the therapeutic benefits of cannabis in treating certain cancers and alleviating the discomforts of chemotherapy.Â
The conversation takes an exciting turn as we delve into the potential of psilocybin and magic mushrooms as a promising therapeutic alternative. We emphasize the need for professional guidance while undergoing this unique psychedelic experience. You don't want to miss the convergence of nature, culture, and contemporary medicine.Â
Full Series:
🌿Two Docs Talk: Developing Natural Products Pt 1 - Unraveling the History of Nature-Inspired Medicine
🌿Two Docs Talk Developing Natural Products: Part 2 -From Ether to Red Yeast Rice
🌿Two Docs Talk Natural Products Part 3 The World of Psilocybin Therapy & Marijuana Regulation
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Have a question for Dr. Koren? Email him at askDrKoren@MedEvidence.com
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Music: Storyblocks - Corporate Inspired
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Narrator (00:01):
Welcome to MedEvidence , where we help you navigate the
truth behind medical researchwith unbiased, evidence-proven
facts, powered by ENCOREResearch Group and hosted by
cardiologist and top medicalresearcher, Dr.
Michael Koren.
Dr. Koren (00:17):
Hello again.
I'm Dr.
Michael Koren hosting anotherepisode of MedEvidence, and I
have the great pleasure andprivilege to be with my dear
friend and colleague, Dr.
Lisa Kirvin-Dawes, who is afriend of mine from medical
school and somebody that nowpractices internal medicine in
Jamaica.
She did her training with me inBoston and in New York and
(00:39):
eventually practiced a bit inMaryland and then moved down to
Jamaica where she is both acountry physician, helping
people with natural remedies andalso running internal medicine
at a hospital.
So those are two very, verydifferent things.
Lisa and I can do that, butanyhow, we're going to talk a
little bit more about thingsthat went from sort of natural
(01:03):
discoveries or even recreationaldrugs to therapies that are
either being studied or that weuse day to day, and Lisa has had
actually an interest incannabis and psilocybin.
You actually have a really nicelecture about cannabis at the
Academy of Physicians andClinical Research a couple of
years ago.
I learned a lot from thatlecture, so tell me a little bit
(01:25):
about how your interestdeveloped in those areas and
what you're doing with it thesedays.
Other than using it in college.
Excuse me, please edit that out, okay?
Dr. Kirvin-Dawes (01:38):
So in terms of cannabis, marijuana, we use it
in Jamaica a lot for medicalreasons.
It's one of the things weactually use for pain.
As I said, Jamaica uses a lotof natural remedies, so people
have always used it for pain andcancer.
When I moved back, I realizedwe had to use a lot of herbs
(02:00):
because the country couldn'tafford to buy big medicines
sometimes.
So for certain cancerspancreatic cancers, the nausea
and the pain we always usemarijuana, and they allowed you
to use it prior to becomingmarijuana becoming very popular
and then, because of politics,really try to be controlled.
(02:21):
As long as the consultant orthe attending in the hospital
was taking responsibility, youcould use it with patients.
Dr. Koren (02:29):
So as long as the attending was using it, then the
patient can use it as well.
By the way, I came up with thatbecause it was actually an
ethical principle in researchyears ago.
They used to say that toprotect the patients against the
use of products that were notproven, that were
(02:50):
investigational, that the PI theprincipal investigator can only
prescribe to the patients if heor she was willing to use it
himself?
Dr. Kirvin-Dawes (02:58):
Or if they were willing, okay, but granted,
that was actually a concept,but granted, though, what we
used it for and now I mean interms of cancers was really,
really helpful.
Even now, when we usechemotherapy, we realize, for
certain chemotherapy- if yougive marijuana they actually
(03:20):
have less nerve damage.
So they don't have the nerveproblems that a lot of people
get that have known with certainsort of chemotherapy.
So that's how we becameinterested.
We were using it mostly forcancer and pain in the early
days.
Dr. Koren (03:38):
Explain to people.
A lot of people know this, butsome people don't.
THC versus CBD Okay so.
Dr. Kirvin-Dawes (03:44):
THC is what people know it as it's part that
gets you high, but CBD is thepart that and that's
tetrahyba-hydro-cannabinoid.
Dr. Koren (03:53):
Cannabinoid, right, Cannabinoid.
Okay, thank you.
Dr. Kirvin-Dawes (03:57):
And the CBDs are usually what people think is
the one that actually ishelping to treat the problem.
However, you need both in orderfor it to work.
People say you need strictlyCBDs.
It doesn't tend to work that.
You always need a little THC toactivate it, and marijuana
probably has over 200 activecomponents in it.
(04:23):
So that is what becomes verytricky and we don't know which
ones are doing what.
We know some of the main ones,but we don't know all of them.
But you need both what the UShas done in many places to call
it CBD.
You have a lesser percentage ofTHC, but it's usually not just
none Interesting.
Dr. Koren (04:44):
Yeah, so that chemistry is fascinating.
So we obviously have receptorsin our body that respond to both
THC and CBD and there's beenresearch in the area.
I was very involved as aninvestigator in our organization
.
I was very involved in thestudies that looked at a drug
called Rimonabant, if youremember that from about 10, 15
(05:07):
years ago, Rimonabant.
Dr. Kirvin-Dawes (05:09):
That's about it.
Dr. Koren (05:10):
Yeah, and so that was basically something that was
being used for weight loss.
So we know that marijuanacauses the munchies and
Rimonabant blocked thosereceptors and was considered an
anti-munchies drug and itactually worked.
It worked really really well tohelp people lose weight.
But, it didn't come to themarket because it was increased
(05:33):
suicidality for people that weretaking the drug.
So obviously, as it helpedpeople lose weight, it also made
them feel more depressed.
And we actually had quite a fewpatients in those studies and a
lot of them did not want tostop the drug because they were
losing weight.
But they also said you know, Ifeel kind of blue and I'm not
feeling great, but I am at leastintellectually excited about
(05:56):
the fact that I'm not thathungry and I can control my
appetite.
So it was really interesting tosee that observation within a
randomized clinical trial thatultimately produced really neat
data about how these receptorsare activated and how we can
manipulate these receptors totry to create some medical
benefits.
But at the same time there's atrade off.
(06:16):
So I think that was fascinating.
But getting back sorry tointerrupt you, but getting back
to marijuana so you use that alot for pain Is that your number
one go to, or do you giveopioids at all?
Dr. Kirvin-Dawes (06:30):
We give opioids.
Now Jamaica is interesting.
We do not have a big opioidproblem.
Dr. Koren (06:38):
W hat's the theory for that?
Dr. Kirvin-Dawes (06:42):
We've been trying to figure it out.
I think our culture looks atpain differently, so that's part
of the problem.
It's sort of a culture whereyou just handle the pain, be a
man and just deal with it andmove on.
So, I think that's part of it iscultural as well, and we do use
(07:03):
a lot of marijuana for pain,but we use it to increase
appetite also with cancerpatients.
But I mean a lot of people interms of cancer use marijuana
and have been using it for manyyears.
People are allowed to, or usedto, grow their own marijuana
without regulation.
Now they have some regulationthat you're allowed to grow a
limited about per household.
Dr. Koren (07:24):
The government can get it on the deal right.
Dr. Kirvin-Dawes (07:25):
Yeah, it's become mostly over-regulated,
which is why Jamaican marijuana,which everybody used to know
about Jamaican Ganges, it's hardto get any more.
Narrator (07:37):
Is that right?
Dr. Kirvin-Dawes (07:38):
Yeah, because it's become very expensive to
grow, unless you're doing itillegally.
Dr. Koren (07:43):
Really.
Dr. Kirvin-Dawes (07:44):
The licensing are five to 15,000.
Dr. Koren (07:47):
Wow Interesting.
Dr. Kirvin-Dawes (07:49):
For a small plot.
Dr. Koren (07:52):
How many joints to get of a small plot.
It's bad.
Dr. Kirvin-Dawes (07:58):
It's really is over-regulated and they come in
and check.
You have to have electricfences, the security and the
average person that was growingmarijuana and the poor Gange
farm.
I can't do that.
It's out of business.
Dr. Koren (08:12):
Interesting.
Yes, the downside of regulationis you can sometimes take away
the means of survival for peoplein prosperity.
So let's move to psilocybin.
So tell me how you use that.
Dr. Kirvin-Dawes (08:26):
Magic mushrooms.
Yeah, there we go.
Well, it is not illegal inJamaica, while I hear in the US
it is.
Dr. Koren (08:34):
Yeah, I think it is pretty illegal here.
Dr. Kirvin-Dawes (08:36):
Right.
So in Jamaica it's not.
It's just not regulated.
So people are trying to do itquietly so it doesn't get
regulated.
But people have used magicmushrooms to.
They go on a retreat and theytake the mushrooms and then they
(08:57):
have certain insights intowhat's really been bothering
them.
So people say, like a week ofgoing on a retreat of mushrooms
somebody has said is equal to 20years of therapy.
Dr. Koren (09:09):
So interesting, okay.
Dr. Kirvin-Dawes (09:12):
It does put you I have tried it in another
state of mind and things thatyou haven't thought about in
years it does bring up.
It is a psychedelic, so peoplecan't see things.
I don't think people should doit on their own unless they know
and have done it before,because it can make people see
(09:32):
things and be very afraid.
You need proper support ofwhat's going on with you?
But in fact there are a numberof American retreats in Jamaica
doing psychedelic mushrooms.
I have friends who run programs.
Dr. Koren (09:48):
So how would you guide somebody in terms of this?
Is it, do you know how muchpsilocybin people are getting
per mushroom or has?
That depends on the mushroom.
Dr. Kirvin-Dawes (09:57):
Okay, so it depends on the mushroom.
There are certain grams and it.
Well, okay, this is a thingthat's not regulated well.
So you find most of the peoplethat run their own sites favor
certain types of mushrooms.
They all don't use the sameones, and so the amount of grams
you get and usually now they'rea little better and measuring
(10:19):
it in terms of grams, but itwill differ per each person and
your tolerance.
So they'll start lower, see howyou react, and then go up.
Dr. Koren (10:29):
I see.
So how long do you have toassess somebody's response, l
ike give me, get a little bitmore explicit.
Dr. Kirvin-Dawes (10:36):
You know the okay, so when you take it most
people you'll start to see aresponse in about three hours to
three hours, so you start withlike a half mushroom or no, they
come in pills about five grams.
Dr. Koren (10:48):
Okay, five gram pill Okay.
Dr. Kirvin-Dawes (10:50):
But it really depends on you.
Can anyway from 0.5,.
Some people start with onemilligram some people start with
two.
It really depends on the person.
Dr. Koren (11:02):
So when you prescribe that for somebody who's say,
has PTSD post-traumatic stressdisorder.
And they said Dr.
Dawes, I heard that you're theexpert on helping people with
this.
I'm talking to a therapist andnot getting anywhere.
I see these flashbacks of thegovernment taking over my
marijuana farm and I need yourhelp, so tell me how you would
(11:26):
address that patient.
Dr. Kirvin-Dawes (11:29):
Usually if they're interested in
psilocyberin therapy for PTSD.
I wouldn't recommend you juststart that on their own.
They actually need to go into atreatment program and actually
be there with a number of people, in case there are people that
can have psychotic episodes.
Dr. Koren (11:45):
Okay, so it's not something you wouldn't give them
a prescription for twomilligrams of magic mushrooms.
Dr. Kirvin-Dawes (11:53):
No.
Dr. Koren (11:53):
Okay, but you have a dispensary that you would trust
to.
Dr. Kirvin-Dawes (11:57):
Yes, we have.
There are a few dispensaries inJamaica.
Dr. Koren (12:00):
yes, and so how about a friend of yours that is gonna
be a little bit off the gridand say I'm really having a hard
time?
I was wondering if maybe amushroom weekend can.
Dr. Kirvin-Dawes (12:12):
Yeah, we have people there.
We have people we can refer to.
Okay, because you want to havepeople that if something happens
they know how to deal with it.
Dr. Koren (12:20):
Okay, so you would advise them to be with other
people.
Dr. Kirvin-Dawes (12:25):
Usually, most of the retreats are with
anywhere from 10 peoplealtogether.
Dr. Koren (12:34):
So you wouldn't advise it, staying home on the
weekend with your partner andtaking two milligrams of
mushrooms.
Dr. Kirvin-Dawes (12:38):
No, it shouldn't be done with somebody
who doesn't know anything aboutmushroom therapy.
Dr. Koren (12:42):
So the consequences are severe enough where it
should be done in some sort ofgroup setting where there's
people around.
Dr. Kirvin-Dawes (12:51):
You need support.
Yes.
But the thing is, because youdon't know who is going to, you
have some people that go throughit, and they're quite mild, and
there are other people thatjust go off and when you're
taking it.
Dr. Koren (13:01):
It's unpredictable.
Dr. Kirvin-Dawes (13:02):
Yeah, so you can predict.
Dr. Koren (13:04):
Yeah, yeah so.
Dr. Kirvin-Dawes (13:06):
You want somebody there when you're
seeing certain things, can helpyou to interpret it, because
people do see things.
Dr. Koren (13:13):
Yeah.
Dr. Kirvin-Dawes (13:13):
And to sort of help with the interpretation
and be supportive.
So it has to be someone thatthey trust as well.
So, no, not recommended to doit on your own, even if you have
access, unless you're veryexperienced.
Dr. Koren (13:26):
It's interesting.
Yeah, it's definitelyunpredictable.
Now I know there are clinicaltrials that are looking at it.
I know I brought up PTSDbecause I know specifically
there have been some trialstalking about that as a
potential, potential problemthat would particularly respond
well to psilocybin, and I knowthat it's been also looked at
(13:47):
for a severe depression.
And you know, having gone tocollege in the United States, I
also have some experience withsome college kids that took it.
In fact, my college roommatetook mushrooms when we were
senior.
He remained nameless one of mycollege roommates and he I don't
know what was going on, but hebecame obsessed with the idea of
(14:08):
burying a chair from ourapartment.
So he literally started liketrying to figure out how to get
shovels and build a hole orconstruct a hole that he can put
the chair in, to bury the chair.
And so where this came from Ihave no idea, but that was a
famous college story amongst mypeer group.
Dr. Kirvin-Dawes (14:36):
But it's interesting the whole concept of
him burying a chair if he hadsomeone there who knows what's
going on they actually sit andtalk to him a little bit about
it and sometimes you can getwhat they're really thinking
about.
But if the person has no,because it may not have been
about the chair, it may havebeen about burying a secret that
happened and it's reallybringing that out of the person.
Dr. Koren (14:53):
That's genius, oh my God.
I'm a little reluctant to saythis but the insight just hit me
on this particular person, butyou're exactly right.
It's funny how, like, you thinkabout things that happened
years ago and you have moreexperiences, and then your whole
insight changes and what youjust said just triggered
(15:14):
something that is spot on.
I can't say it on camerabecause it would identify the
person.
But now I just understandsomething in a very different
way thanI just did so.
Thank you for that.
And so that gets to our youknow sort of.
The final concept is how youget trained medical people to
interface with non-traditionaltherapies so that they tend to
(15:38):
have more good than harm and,either from a counseling
standpoint or a side effectmanagement standpoint or a dose
choosing standpoint or a patientselection standpoint, come up
with the best solutions, and wedesperately need more research
in those areas.
Dr. Kirvin-Dawes (15:58):
Well, what the herbal guys have told me is
that they feel disrespected andsome of them say I'm one of the
few doctors that will sit there,talk to them and actually work
with them.
I think because we go tomedical school and because we
have done different training,some of these guys have had
(16:19):
things passed down for years,have a lot of experience, have
seen what it does and we canlearn from each other.
It's just a about respect andthey need to feel our respect.
They don't feel respected.
Dr. Koren (16:33):
Well, respect is important, but structured
observation is also important.
Dr. Kirvin-Dawes (16:38):
You can work with them on that.
That's what they are thinking.
Well, you can.
Dr. Koren (16:42):
Yeah, and again I've been in a situation where people
have come to me I want to do astudy that shows this and the
other thing, and we always haveto tell people.
Well, how about if the studyshows your idea doesn't work?
So you have to be prepared forthat, and that's the humbling
part of doing clinical researchis that, as much as we believe
in something, once you put itthrough an objective test, it
may work and may not.
(17:02):
And, of course, if it doesn'twork doesn't mean that your idea
is completely nonsense.
It means that you need toredevelop your idea and come up
with a solution in which thatsituation will actually work to
accomplish what you're trying toaccomplish.
Hey, Lisa, this was a fabulousconversation.
I really appreciate it.
I always learned something fromyou.
(17:24):
It's a pleasure and keep thegood work and thank you for
being part of Two Docs.
Talk Natural Medicine.
Dr. Kirvin-Dawes (17:33):
Thanks for having me.
Narrator (17:35):
Thanks for joining the MedEvidence podcast.
To learn more, head over toMedEvidence.
com or subscribe to our podcaston your favorite podcast
platform.
Welcome to MedEvidence , where we help you navigate the
truth behind medical researchwith unbiased, evidence-proven
facts, powered by ENCOREResearch Group and hosted by
cardiologist and top medicalresearcher, Dr.
Michael Koren.
Dr. Koren (00:17):
Hello again.
I'm Dr.
Michael Koren hosting anotherepisode of MedEvidence, and I
have the great pleasure andprivilege to be with my dear
friend and colleague, Dr.
Lisa Kirvin-Dawes, who is afriend of mine from medical
school and somebody that nowpractices internal medicine in
Jamaica.
She did her training with me inBoston and in New York and
(00:39):
eventually practiced a bit inMaryland and then moved down to
Jamaica where she is both acountry physician, helping
people with natural remedies andalso running internal medicine
at a hospital.
So those are two very, verydifferent things.
Lisa and I can do that, butanyhow, we're going to talk a
little bit more about thingsthat went from sort of natural
(01:03):
discoveries or even recreationaldrugs to therapies that are
either being studied or that weuse day to day, and Lisa has had
actually an interest incannabis and psilocybin.
You actually have a really nicelecture about cannabis at the
Academy of Physicians andClinical Research a couple of
years ago.
I learned a lot from thatlecture, so tell me a little bit
(01:25):
about how your interestdeveloped in those areas and
what you're doing with it thesedays.
Other than using it in college.
Excuse me, please edit that out, okay?
Dr. Kirvin-Dawes (01:38):
So in terms of cannabis, marijuana, we use it
in Jamaica a lot for medicalreasons.
It's one of the things weactually use for pain.
As I said, Jamaica uses a lotof natural remedies, so people
have always used it for pain andcancer.
When I moved back, I realizedwe had to use a lot of herbs
(02:00):
because the country couldn'tafford to buy big medicines
sometimes.
So for certain cancerspancreatic cancers, the nausea
and the pain we always usemarijuana, and they allowed you
to use it prior to becomingmarijuana becoming very popular
and then, because of politics,really try to be controlled.
(02:21):
As long as the consultant orthe attending in the hospital
was taking responsibility, youcould use it with patients.
Dr. Koren (02:29):
So as long as the attending was using it, then the
patient can use it as well.
By the way, I came up with thatbecause it was actually an
ethical principle in researchyears ago.
They used to say that toprotect the patients against the
use of products that were notproven, that were
(02:50):
investigational, that the PI theprincipal investigator can only
prescribe to the patients if heor she was willing to use it
himself?
Dr. Kirvin-Dawes (02:58):
Or if they were willing, okay, but granted,
that was actually a concept,but granted, though, what we
used it for and now I mean interms of cancers was really,
really helpful.
Even now, when we usechemotherapy, we realize, for
certain chemotherapy- if yougive marijuana they actually
(03:20):
have less nerve damage.
So they don't have the nerveproblems that a lot of people
get that have known with certainsort of chemotherapy.
So that's how we becameinterested.
We were using it mostly forcancer and pain in the early
days.
Dr. Koren (03:38):
Explain to people.
A lot of people know this, butsome people don't.
THC versus CBD Okay so.
Dr. Kirvin-Dawes (03:44):
THC is what people know it as it's part that
gets you high, but CBD is thepart that and that's
tetrahyba-hydro-cannabinoid.
Dr. Koren (03:53):
Cannabinoid, right, Cannabinoid.
Okay, thank you.
Dr. Kirvin-Dawes (03:57):
And the CBDs are usually what people think is
the one that actually ishelping to treat the problem.
However, you need both in orderfor it to work.
People say you need strictlyCBDs.
It doesn't tend to work that.
You always need a little THC toactivate it, and marijuana
probably has over 200 activecomponents in it.
(04:23):
So that is what becomes verytricky and we don't know which
ones are doing what.
We know some of the main ones,but we don't know all of them.
But you need both what the UShas done in many places to call
it CBD.
You have a lesser percentage ofTHC, but it's usually not just
none Interesting.
Dr. Koren (04:44):
Yeah, so that chemistry is fascinating.
So we obviously have receptorsin our body that respond to both
THC and CBD and there's beenresearch in the area.
I was very involved as aninvestigator in our organization
.
I was very involved in thestudies that looked at a drug
called Rimonabant, if youremember that from about 10, 15
(05:07):
years ago, Rimonabant.
Dr. Kirvin-Dawes (05:09):
That's about it.
Dr. Koren (05:10):
Yeah, and so that was basically something that was
being used for weight loss.
So we know that marijuanacauses the munchies and
Rimonabant blocked thosereceptors and was considered an
anti-munchies drug and itactually worked.
It worked really really well tohelp people lose weight.
But, it didn't come to themarket because it was increased
(05:33):
suicidality for people that weretaking the drug.
So obviously, as it helpedpeople lose weight, it also made
them feel more depressed.
And we actually had quite a fewpatients in those studies and a
lot of them did not want tostop the drug because they were
losing weight.
But they also said you know, Ifeel kind of blue and I'm not
feeling great, but I am at leastintellectually excited about
(05:56):
the fact that I'm not thathungry and I can control my
appetite.
So it was really interesting tosee that observation within a
randomized clinical trial thatultimately produced really neat
data about how these receptorsare activated and how we can
manipulate these receptors totry to create some medical
benefits.
But at the same time there's atrade off.
(06:16):
So I think that was fascinating.
But getting back sorry tointerrupt you, but getting back
to marijuana so you use that alot for pain Is that your number
one go to, or do you giveopioids at all?
Dr. Kirvin-Dawes (06:30):
We give opioids.
Now Jamaica is interesting.
We do not have a big opioidproblem.
Dr. Koren (06:38):
W hat's the theory for that?
Dr. Kirvin-Dawes (06:42):
We've been trying to figure it out.
I think our culture looks atpain differently, so that's part
of the problem.
It's sort of a culture whereyou just handle the pain, be a
man and just deal with it andmove on.
So, I think that's part of it iscultural as well, and we do use
(07:03):
a lot of marijuana for pain,but we use it to increase
appetite also with cancerpatients.
But I mean a lot of people interms of cancer use marijuana
and have been using it for manyyears.
People are allowed to, or usedto, grow their own marijuana
without regulation.
Now they have some regulationthat you're allowed to grow a
limited about per household.
Dr. Koren (07:24):
The government can get it on the deal right.
Dr. Kirvin-Dawes (07:25):
Yeah, it's become mostly over-regulated,
which is why Jamaican marijuana,which everybody used to know
about Jamaican Ganges, it's hardto get any more.
Narrator (07:37):
Is that right?
Dr. Kirvin-Dawes (07:38):
Yeah, because it's become very expensive to
grow, unless you're doing itillegally.
Dr. Koren (07:43):
Really.
Dr. Kirvin-Dawes (07:44):
The licensing are five to 15,000.
Dr. Koren (07:47):
Wow Interesting.
Dr. Kirvin-Dawes (07:49):
For a small plot.
Dr. Koren (07:52):
How many joints to get of a small plot.
It's bad.
Dr. Kirvin-Dawes (07:58):
It's really is over-regulated and they come in
and check.
You have to have electricfences, the security and the
average person that was growingmarijuana and the poor Gange
farm.
I can't do that.
It's out of business.
Dr. Koren (08:12):
Interesting.
Yes, the downside of regulationis you can sometimes take away
the means of survival for peoplein prosperity.
So let's move to psilocybin.
So tell me how you use that.
Dr. Kirvin-Dawes (08:26):
Magic mushrooms.
Yeah, there we go.
Well, it is not illegal inJamaica, while I hear in the US
it is.
Dr. Koren (08:34):
Yeah, I think it is pretty illegal here.
Dr. Kirvin-Dawes (08:36):
Right.
So in Jamaica it's not.
It's just not regulated.
So people are trying to do itquietly so it doesn't get
regulated.
But people have used magicmushrooms to.
They go on a retreat and theytake the mushrooms and then they
(08:57):
have certain insights intowhat's really been bothering
them.
So people say, like a week ofgoing on a retreat of mushrooms
somebody has said is equal to 20years of therapy.
Dr. Koren (09:09):
So interesting, okay.
Dr. Kirvin-Dawes (09:12):
It does put you I have tried it in another
state of mind and things thatyou haven't thought about in
years it does bring up.
It is a psychedelic, so peoplecan't see things.
I don't think people should doit on their own unless they know
and have done it before,because it can make people see
(09:32):
things and be very afraid.
You need proper support ofwhat's going on with you?
But in fact there are a numberof American retreats in Jamaica
doing psychedelic mushrooms.
I have friends who run programs.
Dr. Koren (09:48):
So how would you guide somebody in terms of this?
Is it, do you know how muchpsilocybin people are getting
per mushroom or has?
That depends on the mushroom.
Dr. Kirvin-Dawes (09:57):
Okay, so it depends on the mushroom.
There are certain grams and it.
Well, okay, this is a thingthat's not regulated well.
So you find most of the peoplethat run their own sites favor
certain types of mushrooms.
They all don't use the sameones, and so the amount of grams
you get and usually now they'rea little better and measuring
(10:19):
it in terms of grams, but itwill differ per each person and
your tolerance.
So they'll start lower, see howyou react, and then go up.
Dr. Koren (10:29):
I see.
So how long do you have toassess somebody's response, l
ike give me, get a little bitmore explicit.
Dr. Kirvin-Dawes (10:36):
You know the okay, so when you take it most
people you'll start to see aresponse in about three hours to
three hours, so you start withlike a half mushroom or no, they
come in pills about five grams.
Dr. Koren (10:48):
Okay, five gram pill Okay.
Dr. Kirvin-Dawes (10:50):
But it really depends on you.
Can anyway from 0.5,.
Some people start with onemilligram some people start with
two.
It really depends on the person.
Dr. Koren (11:02):
So when you prescribe that for somebody who's say,
has PTSD post-traumatic stressdisorder.
And they said Dr.
Dawes, I heard that you're theexpert on helping people with
this.
I'm talking to a therapist andnot getting anywhere.
I see these flashbacks of thegovernment taking over my
marijuana farm and I need yourhelp, so tell me how you would
(11:26):
address that patient.
Dr. Kirvin-Dawes (11:29):
Usually if they're interested in
psilocyberin therapy for PTSD.
I wouldn't recommend you juststart that on their own.
They actually need to go into atreatment program and actually
be there with a number of people, in case there are people that
can have psychotic episodes.
Dr. Koren (11:45):
Okay, so it's not something you wouldn't give them
a prescription for twomilligrams of magic mushrooms.
Dr. Kirvin-Dawes (11:53):
No.
Dr. Koren (11:53):
Okay, but you have a dispensary that you would trust
to.
Dr. Kirvin-Dawes (11:57):
Yes, we have.
There are a few dispensaries inJamaica.
Dr. Koren (12:00):
yes, and so how about a friend of yours that is gonna
be a little bit off the gridand say I'm really having a hard
time?
I was wondering if maybe amushroom weekend can.
Dr. Kirvin-Dawes (12:12):
Yeah, we have people there.
We have people we can refer to.
Okay, because you want to havepeople that if something happens
they know how to deal with it.
Dr. Koren (12:20):
Okay, so you would advise them to be with other
people.
Dr. Kirvin-Dawes (12:25):
Usually, most of the retreats are with
anywhere from 10 peoplealtogether.
Dr. Koren (12:34):
So you wouldn't advise it, staying home on the
weekend with your partner andtaking two milligrams of
mushrooms.
Dr. Kirvin-Dawes (12:38):
No, it shouldn't be done with somebody
who doesn't know anything aboutmushroom therapy.
Dr. Koren (12:42):
So the consequences are severe enough where it
should be done in some sort ofgroup setting where there's
people around.
Dr. Kirvin-Dawes (12:51):
You need support.
Yes.
But the thing is, because youdon't know who is going to, you
have some people that go throughit, and they're quite mild, and
there are other people thatjust go off and when you're
taking it.
Dr. Koren (13:01):
It's unpredictable.
Dr. Kirvin-Dawes (13:02):
Yeah, so you can predict.
Dr. Koren (13:04):
Yeah, yeah so.
Dr. Kirvin-Dawes (13:06):
You want somebody there when you're
seeing certain things, can helpyou to interpret it, because
people do see things.
Dr. Koren (13:13):
Yeah.
Dr. Kirvin-Dawes (13:13):
And to sort of help with the interpretation
and be supportive.
So it has to be someone thatthey trust as well.
So, no, not recommended to doit on your own, even if you have
access, unless you're veryexperienced.
Dr. Koren (13:26):
It's interesting.
Yeah, it's definitelyunpredictable.
Now I know there are clinicaltrials that are looking at it.
I know I brought up PTSDbecause I know specifically
there have been some trialstalking about that as a
potential, potential problemthat would particularly respond
well to psilocybin, and I knowthat it's been also looked at
(13:47):
for a severe depression.
And you know, having gone tocollege in the United States, I
also have some experience withsome college kids that took it.
In fact, my college roommatetook mushrooms when we were
senior.
He remained nameless one of mycollege roommates and he I don't
know what was going on, but hebecame obsessed with the idea of
(14:08):
burying a chair from ourapartment.
So he literally started liketrying to figure out how to get
shovels and build a hole orconstruct a hole that he can put
the chair in, to bury the chair.
And so where this came from Ihave no idea, but that was a
famous college story amongst mypeer group.
Dr. Kirvin-Dawes (14:36):
But it's interesting the whole concept of
him burying a chair if he hadsomeone there who knows what's
going on they actually sit andtalk to him a little bit about
it and sometimes you can getwhat they're really thinking
about.
But if the person has no,because it may not have been
about the chair, it may havebeen about burying a secret that
happened and it's reallybringing that out of the person.
Dr. Koren (14:53):
That's genius, oh my God.
I'm a little reluctant to saythis but the insight just hit me
on this particular person, butyou're exactly right.
It's funny how, like, you thinkabout things that happened
years ago and you have moreexperiences, and then your whole
insight changes and what youjust said just triggered
(15:14):
something that is spot on.
I can't say it on camerabecause it would identify the
person.
But now I just understandsomething in a very different
way thanI just did so.
Thank you for that.
And so that gets to our youknow sort of.
The final concept is how youget trained medical people to
interface with non-traditionaltherapies so that they tend to
(15:38):
have more good than harm and,either from a counseling
standpoint or a side effectmanagement standpoint or a dose
choosing standpoint or a patientselection standpoint, come up
with the best solutions, and wedesperately need more research
in those areas.
Dr. Kirvin-Dawes (15:58):
Well, what the herbal guys have told me is
that they feel disrespected andsome of them say I'm one of the
few doctors that will sit there,talk to them and actually work
with them.
I think because we go tomedical school and because we
have done different training,some of these guys have had
(16:19):
things passed down for years,have a lot of experience, have
seen what it does and we canlearn from each other.
It's just a about respect andthey need to feel our respect.
They don't feel respected.
Dr. Koren (16:33):
Well, respect is important, but structured
observation is also important.
Dr. Kirvin-Dawes (16:38):
You can work with them on that.
That's what they are thinking.
Well, you can.
Dr. Koren (16:42):
Yeah, and again I've been in a situation where people
have come to me I want to do astudy that shows this and the
other thing, and we always haveto tell people.
Well, how about if the studyshows your idea doesn't work?
So you have to be prepared forthat, and that's the humbling
part of doing clinical researchis that, as much as we believe
in something, once you put itthrough an objective test, it
may work and may not.
(17:02):
And, of course, if it doesn'twork doesn't mean that your idea
is completely nonsense.
It means that you need toredevelop your idea and come up
with a solution in which thatsituation will actually work to
accomplish what you're trying toaccomplish.
Hey, Lisa, this was a fabulousconversation.
I really appreciate it.
I always learned something fromyou.
(17:24):
It's a pleasure and keep thegood work and thank you for
being part of Two Docs.
Talk Natural Medicine.
Dr. Kirvin-Dawes (17:33):
Thanks for having me.
Narrator (17:35):
Thanks for joining the MedEvidence podcast.
To learn more, head over toMedEvidence.
com or subscribe to our podcaston your favorite podcast
platform.
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