September 25, 2025 • 48 mins
In this episode of Mindfully Masculine, Charles and Dan dive into psychologist Dr. Orion Taraban’s provocative appearance on The Diary of a CEO. Taraban is known for his blunt take on dating, relationships, and masculinity—arguing that men are invisible until they bring value, that love is not earned but given, and that relationships at their core are transactional.
We unpack his biggest ideas, from the economics of attraction to the dangers of performative masculinity, and explore how they intersect with our own experiences and the work of thinkers like Robert Glover and Mel Robbins. Along the way, we wrestle with tough questions:
- Are relationships really just value exchanges dressed up as romance?
- What happens when men try to prove their worth with words instead of action?
- Can sublimating sexual energy actually fuel achievement and purpose?
- Is compromise the death of passion, or the foundation of long-term love?
Whether you agree with Taraban’s framework or find it too cold, his ideas force us to reconsider what we bring to the table—and what we expect in return.
What you’ll hear in this episode:
- Why Taraban sees love as a gift, not a transaction
- The distinction between performative masculinity and core masculinity
- How porn, OnlyFans, and substitutes for intimacy change men’s drive
- Why disappointment is the real beginning of every relationship
- How to balance the economics of love with the mystery of connection
For full episodes, audio, and video, visit mindfullymasculine.com
.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Charles (00:00):
It's not enough to just be a quote unquote great guy.
It's like you have to be agreat guy who's also willing to
put yourself out there to say,hey look, everybody, I'm, I'm a
great guy, and here's why.
Yeah, and you have to be ableto demonstrate that in ways that
are not easily faked, becauseit's a woman's job to figure out
.
Ok, is this guy really a greatguy, or is this guy somebody
(00:21):
who's just practiced acting andlooking like he's a great guy?
Dan (00:24):
Well, and I think what the doctor would say here is what
does great guy even mean?
Like what makes you great?
You need to go further thanthat.
You can't just say I'm a greatguy, oh, because what you?
Oh, one of the last things youshould.
Charles (00:37):
Like animals.
I mean like One of the lastthings you should do is try to
use your words to convincepeople you're a great guy,
because words, words are supercheap.
Welcome to the mindfullymasculine podcast.
This is charles, and thisepisode is coming to you a
little later than planned.
My work schedule has beenreally busy and also I had some
technical issues that tooklonger to resolve.
(00:59):
But here we are you're gettingan episode now, another one on
monday, and then we'll be backto our usual schedule.
This week we're talking aboutDr Orion Terriban's appearance
on Diary of a CEO.
He's a psychologist with a verydirect, no-nonsense style who
looks at relationships throughthe lens of behavioral economics
.
His ideas are provocative thatmen are invisible until they
(01:22):
bring value, that relationshipsare fundamentally transactional
and that masculinity comes downto spine and balls.
Dan and I will dig into what weagree with, where we push back
and how his perspective compareswith other voices we've
explored on the show.
For all of our full episodes,audio and video, check out
mindfullymasculinecom and enjoy.
Dan (01:43):
Good morning Charles.
Charles (01:54):
Hello Dan.
Dan (01:54):
How are you?
I'm doing well, excellent.
Check out mindfullymasculinecomand enjoy part of your day.
Charles (02:00):
It is no best part of my week we have still yet to
land on a long-term series, likewe usually do, and we're kind
of just uh, exploring some ofthe things that interest us
right now, that we are that wefind interesting, and so our
last episode was about the aigirlfriends and as part of that
(02:21):
we watched three video clipswhere it was discussed, and one
of those clips kind of grabbedus both a little harder than the
other two, which was the?
Uh, it was from an excerpt fromthe diary of a ceo podcast with
uh orion taraban, who is adoctor of psychology and he has
(02:42):
a very prominent YouTube channel.
I'm surprised I'd never heardof this guy before.
Maybe I'd seen his stuff andjust hadn't looked at it.
But Psych Hacks is the name ofhis YouTube channel and he's
written a book called the Valueof Others, and so he basically
looks at romantic or sexualrelationships through the prism
(03:05):
of behavioral economics and, uh,I find his, his style really
appeals to me because he reallyjust kind of boils everything
down to data and and here's howpeople behave and here's why
they behave that way, and here'sit's.
It's very analytical, which,like, I always try to remember
(03:30):
when I come upon informationlike that and it really
resonates with me.
I also try to keep in mind okay, man, there are some people who
would really not like this atall.
Just because the style is notis not what they're looking for
when it comes to relationshipadvice.
I mean, and you know, I'm, I'ma little bit of, uh, I'm, I'm a
bit sentimental, I'm a bitromantic and, um, I'm a bit in
(03:54):
the camp of I want myrelationship advice, or just the
way I talk about relationshipsI want there to be a little bit
of woo-woo and in there and thisguy has no time for that
whatsoever.
Dan (04:07):
Yeah.
To the point where, yeah, I, soI I've watched the full episode
that we're going to talk abouttoday and I've also listened to
his entire book and, uh, I foundboth to be extremely valuable,
but also, like, as I waslistening to it, I was very
aware of the fact, like thethings that make me into this
(04:28):
are the things that I think alot of other people would be
like I am not into this at allinteresting the way I look at it
is I appreciate him because heexplains to me why the woo woo,
some of that woo woo exists,like the, and, and to me that
kind of validates it and allowsme to then, I guess, more freely
(04:54):
dive into those types ofexperiences and knowing that
there is a reason for it, it'snot all based on pure feelings
and it reassures me that a lotof my instincts and intuitions
are more accurate than Iactually was believing to begin
(05:14):
with, and it's kind ofdismissing it.
Oh, you know, I'm doing this orshe's doing that because of just
the way we feel and there's noreal reason for it.
And then my mind goes to okay,could that be leading us down a
dangerous path?
And it could be.
But he explains what paths youpossibly could take based on
(05:36):
what you're doing in thosespecific situations, and I guess
we'll get more into thosespecific examples on the podcast
.
Charles (05:41):
Yeah, can you?
Can you think of anything inparticular that really jumped
out or resonated with you themost of what he had to say?
I mean, it doesn't have to bethe number one.
Yeah, something big, thatreally right.
Dan (05:53):
Yeah, um, a lot of it was just that be aware of what
you're bringing to the table,right in terms of the energy and
the value that you bring to therelationship.
People are only in, not only,but really people are in
(06:15):
relationships.
They have relationships becausethey're getting something out
of it right At some level.
Right and the value, and itcould just be good feelings,
that that is a valid, that youwere bringing somebody good
feelings and that is valid.
And to me that is nottransactional, that is not a
cold, you know business type ofrelationship.
It is transactional.
Charles (06:34):
But I think, okay, part of what he wants to do is is
kind of take the the negativestigma away from a word like
transactional right I.
I don't remember exactly thephraseology he uses, but he
basically says a successfulrelationship happens when two
people are trading non-identicalgoods that are of comparable
(06:55):
value to each other.
Because I mean, if you and Iare in a business relationship
and all I have to offer you arethe exact same things you have
to offer me, no matter howvaluable they are, it doesn't
matter.
There's no relationship to behad there.
If all you can offer me is whatI already have and all I can
offer you is what you alreadyhave, then there's no reason for
us to trade or engage with eachother at all.
(07:16):
It has to be I've got somethingto give you and you've got
something to give me, andthey're very different from each
other, but we both think thatthey're worth about the same and
the closer we can get to that,so the more different your
offering is from mine and mineis from yours, the more I'm like
Ooh, this is not something Ican.
I can't make this up on my own.
(07:37):
I have to get this from someoneelse.
And the more close they are invalue to each other, the more
excited I'm going to be toengage in that transaction with
you and we're okay with talkingabout business relationships
that way, 100%, because you knowI talk about capitalism and how
I consider myself a capitalistand there's a lot of especially
(08:03):
among the people I hang out with, because I spend a lot of time
with both girls and guys whokind of lean center left or
further than that, and socapitalism has a bit of a
negative connotation among youngpeople, among a lot of women,
among anybody who considersthemselves leftist or
progressive.
(08:27):
And what I always say iscapitalism to me is not that
bank's too big to fail.
We have to hand them a bunch ofmoney.
Capitalism to me is the farmergrows the best tomatoes you've
ever tasted and he takes them tothe market and you're happy to
hand over $5 for a little basket.
Sure, that's the version ofcapitalism that I, that I
support and that I think is goodfor people, that I support and
that I think is good for people.
And so this kind of capitalismwhere his tomatoes are worth at
(08:50):
least five, his little basket'sworth at least $5 to me and I'm
happy to hand it over and my $5is worth way more to him than
his basket of tomatoes, yeah,and so we're able to both engage
in a transaction that we bothwalk away feeling really good
about.
And transferring that topersonal relationships gets a
(09:11):
little cringy for peoplesometimes and I I understand
that, but that doesn't make itnot true, right?
And?
And focusing on what, whatthose things are, that men and
women and um, in the book heuses the analogy of, of captains
(09:34):
and passengers, and how thosedon't necessarily correlate to
gender at all.
Um, but, yeah, you, basicallyyou have to come into the
relationship with two differentroles and two different needs.
If you're going to have andwe've talked about that with
other books that we've exploredtoo about polarity there has to
be, there has to be a big enoughdifference in what you want and
(09:58):
what you offer in order to findsomebody that is going to want
to engage with you, to findsomebody that is going to want
to engage with you.
And, uh, yeah, I, I, really Ilike the idea of being able to
understand this in in terms thatwe're all maybe not all, but
many of us are more familiarwith, which is the terms of, you
know, a, a trading transaction.
Dan (10:20):
Yeah.
Charles (10:22):
But again I realized how some people could get
uncomfortable with that.
Um, one of the things he is aconcern of his that he talked
about quite a bit on the podcastis the fact that, um,
relationships, um, the number ofrelationships are decreasing,
and that's I was a littlesurprised to find that out.
(10:42):
That's relationships across theboard, it's casual
relationships, it's datingrelationships, it's marriages.
It's like just two peoplecoming together and choosing to
get in a relationship with eachother is not happening as much,
and why do you think?
Dan (11:01):
that is Like what jumps out to you about that I think these
days we have a lot more optionsavailable to us and so we don't
necessarily need to getmultiple options met or needs
met from one person.
And I think in the past, when wedidn't have as much access to
(11:24):
information, we didn't have asmuch access to travel, we were
limited in terms of the optionswe had available to us in terms
of relationships, and so a lotof times we'd end up kind of
being in a relationship withsomebody and needing to have
that relationship in order toget a lot of our needs met,
(11:47):
whereas now we've got so manydifferent I mean even not not
even like sexually related,right, so like just interest.
In the video he talks about howhe wanted to.
Initially he wanted to findsomebody.
He had all these selectioncriteria coming up and looking
for a partner you know, a womanthat he could not only have a
romantic relationship with butalso want to talk about quantum
(12:08):
mechanics and loved horsebackriding and all this.
And you know he went to acounselor and the guy was like
why do you need a woman to talkabout quantum mechanics?
Like why and he thought aboutit no, you can find a guy or a
group of people to meet those,all those individual needs, and
I think that's one of the thereasons now is the people are
(12:30):
decreasing the amount ofrelationships we have is because
romantic relationships isbecause we can get those needs
met from other ways, includingpornography right that's another
.
He did talk about that quite abit and that's the thing is a
lot of younger guys they'refalling into these, you know,
pornography addictions, because,first of all, it's everywhere,
(12:51):
right, so it's.
It's on all the social mediaplatforms, it's not just on only
fans and everything elseLooking for porn, to find porn.
And it's very right and exactlyso.
It's very right and exactly so.
It's very accessible and it'snot quite as good as having you
know sex with somebody, but it's, you know it's close enough or
they're kind of settling forthat and the point, but it's
good enough.
Charles (13:11):
And the point you brought up last in the last
episode was if you've never hada girlfriend before, you don't
know how much how good it'd be.
You don't know how muchdifferent, yeah, you know,
whacking off to porn by yourselfis from having a woman in your
life who wants to be physicallyintimate with you, right, and so
if you never, you know sampledthe difference, then yeah,
(13:33):
you're never gonna, you're nevergonna realize what you're
missing out on.
You're just gonna assume, oh,it's probably about the same.
Dan (13:40):
Yeah, and the other thing too, is that there's a cost to
finding and having a girlfriend,right In terms of time and
effort and also finances as well.
Right, it's a lot.
It's a lot less time, a lot lesseffort and a lot less
vulnerability and the potentialfor everything Right so so you
really need to be sold that thejuice is worth the squeeze Right
(14:02):
In order to make that effort,and so, yeah, that's why guys
are having relationships with AIgirlfriends and and with only
fans, girls and everything elseRight.
It's a lot easier.
Charles (14:14):
And it's really hard for me to get concerned with the
macro level of oh, if thistrend continues, there's going
to be a population collapse andit's, you know, as two guys
without kids it's like big deal,it's not going to be my problem
, yeah, so it's hard for me toget excited about trying to
(14:44):
participate in the macro levelfixes of this when I really, you
know'll, it'll work out the waythat it works out.
Yeah, if there's a populationcollapse and if the world gets
worse because we're not makingenough babies right now, my
attitude about that and thatcould change.
You know, who knows what thefuture is going to hold.
Maybe, you know, I end uphaving a kid and then it becomes
a really big deal to me, butthat's not right now.
So so it's like, you know, Idon't really care that much.
Dan (15:02):
He did make an interesting point that is like a tangent to
that, which is, if guys are athome pleasuring themselves
masturbating to porn all thetime, they then lose the drive
to do other things and becontributing members of society
in terms of building companiesand, you know, building bridges
(15:25):
and roads and all the otherthings that humans do when men
are in a horny state.
Quote unquote right, it drivesyou to do things.
Same thing with that hunger.
You're not going to go and huntunless you're hungry, Right?
So why are you going to go andrisk yourself out in the
wilderness trying to hunt downsome animal If you're not hungry
?
It's not worth it.
Same thing you need to behungry and horny in this case.
(15:48):
If you're a little horny, you'regoing to tend to do things more
.
And I know, when I've taken abreak from masturbating, I do
have more energy and I do feellike I wanted to go out and do
more things.
It's not always sex related,but it's.
I do feel like there's thisunderlying base of energy that
rises up.
I already have fairly lowenergy cause I don't sleep well
most of the time, so I'm verysensitive to knowing when I've
(16:10):
got more energy and when I'vegot less energy and I know the
times where I've taken a breakfrom from, from, you know, from
masturbating.
Yeah, I've, I've definitely gotmore energy all right.
Well, if I ever take a break, Iwill weigh in, and you know,
because I know, I know you'vegot your stance on that, where I
know glover was talking aboutnot you know going for a while,
and I think other other peoplethat we've read about have said
(16:32):
and I've complained about it,like why exactly right everybody
talking about masturbate?
Charles (16:37):
like, if you're an influencer in the masculine
space, the first thing you haveto do is start telling people
not to masturbate anymore.
It is like I am not signing onto that, right?
Uh, I I'm not telling peoplemasturbate, more, masturbate,
less masturbate at all.
I, I'm staying out of it.
So you do what you want to do I.
But I yeah, I've never, at thetimes that I've been single and
I've been looking for a partner,either by being more social or
(17:01):
by being on the apps or whateverI've never felt like my, my
masturbation frequency wouldhave an impact on that.
Dan (17:10):
Well, you know, I think that also comes down to our our
testosterone levels as well.
So that's the things I think.
Charles (17:15):
If you if you're like a greater than sign in the number
1600, maybe then you don't needto take a break.
Dan (17:21):
Right's.
The thing is more, maybe that'smore maintenance than anything
else.
Right, that's, that's a yeah soI think if you, yeah, if you
don't have and these days youknow the average, you know the
average guy's testosterone levelis a lot lower than it was, you
know, 34 years ago.
Charles (17:36):
It's just constantly decreasing and I I've never seen
really any conclusive.
I mean, you know, people talkabout microplastics, they'll
talk about pollution, talk aboutall sorts of things, but I and
they'll also talk about thepsychological effect well you're
not spending time around othermen doing difficult things, and
that has an impact on it as well, I think it's probably our
(17:56):
society is moving, it's allgenerally moving the
testosterone level down becausealso, as you gain weight, the
fat that you carry gives offestrogen too, and that basically
negates the testosterone youhave in your body as well.
Dan (18:11):
And we all know that the world is getting fatter and
we're not getting any thinner.
Charles (18:16):
At least the West is Right.
Dan (18:17):
Yeah, absolutely.
And I mean that's making itsway over to the east, too, with
our foods and everything else.
Yeah, so absolutely.
I think it's a logicalconclusion that, yeah, we're not
, definitely we're not promotingmore testosterone in men in any
way.
Yeah, and from from anything inour lifestyles.
Charles (18:33):
Yeah, and, and we've talked about how, just you know,
a slight bump in that canmotivate you to do things that
you were were not willing to dootherwise can motivate you to do
things that you were were notwilling to do otherwise.
Right, and whether that'sthrough, you know you start
lifting, you start eating betteror you start getting exogenous
hormone injections.
It does change your, yourwillingness to get up and get
(18:53):
crap done and it just cause it'sweird, it you feel
uncomfortable if you're notgetting up and getting crap done
.
Dan (19:00):
Yep and uh, it's a magic vial that is able to make that
transform in the lives of manymen our age and younger, and the
nice thing is that sometimesthat's just the kickstart that
you need and all of a suddenit's like, oh, I've got the
energy to do this.
Charles (19:17):
Well, maybe now I'm more willing to eat that food
that I'm not really a fan of andand pay attention to the things
that I'm eating, and maybe I'llstart walking or moving or
exercising more going out forlong walks and definitely, and
so when I started all that, andnow it's a habit, now it's
something that right, um, I, myidentity is now I'm a guy who
goes out for long walks and Ienjoy it right and and and
(19:39):
that's, and there you go, andthen so you, maybe that's,
that's what needs to happen.
Dan (19:43):
And then, before you know it, you know the guys who never
had girlfriends and never hadreal sex before you know they
have it once and like, oh okay,Maybe now that I'm, I'm, I'm the
guy that goes out and has sex.
You know it's like, instead ofsitting home and masturbating,
so here's a quote I want to talkabout.
Charles (19:58):
He says that men are invisible until they offer value
.
I would say that really appliesto everybody.
It's just what do you have todo to offer that value when?
I think women, because in mostWestern societies women are the
(20:33):
gatekeepers on sexual intimacyand women are going to be
pursued by men for sexualopportunities.
They have some inherent valuein just the fact that they are a
woman.
In a Western society whereromantic love and consent,
consensual sex, is the norm, um,they, they get to have some of
that value to other men just bybeing a woman, where I don't
know that men have the same kindof intrinsic value to women
(20:58):
just for being a man.
And so, yeah, I do feel likemen have to.
If they want to be consideredas a viable option in a dating
market or the sexual marketplace, they have to clearly not only
bring something to the table buthave a method of advertising
(21:18):
the fact that they bringsomething to the table.
Well said, where it's.
It's not enough to just be aquote-unquote great guy.
It's like you have to be agreat guy who's also willing to
put yourself out there to sayhey look, everybody, I'm, I'm a
great guy, and here's why yeahand you have to be able to
demonstrate that in ways thatare not easily faked, because
(21:39):
it's it's a woman's job tofigure out.
Okay, is this guy really a greatguy, or is this guy somebody
who's just practiced acting andlooking like he's a great guy?
Dan (21:46):
well, and I think what the doctor would say here is what
does great guy even mean?
Like, what makes you great?
Right, you need to go furtherthan that.
You can't just say I'm, I'm agreat guy, oh, because what you
oh.
Charles (21:58):
One of the last things you're like one of the last
things like animals.
I mean one of the last thingsyou like.
One of the last things likeanimals?
I mean like one of the lastthings you should do is is try
to use your words to convincepeople you're a great guy,
because words, words are supercheap and then I'll decide if
you're amazing and fun and sexyand hilarious and all all those,
all those labels that are supereasy to just apply to yourself.
(22:20):
It's like no show, don't tell,right?
Dan (22:23):
Yeah.
Charles (22:25):
And I think that's certainly true for men who are
looking to attract women.
It's like if you're justtelling a girl, either on your
dating profile or in person, I'msmart, I'm successful, I'm
funny, and it's like, well, thepeople who actually are those
things don't usually feel theneed to tell people that they
are, and so, like, well, thepeople who actually are those
things don't usually feel theneed to tell people that they
are, yeah, and so but at thesame time, you do need to show
(22:47):
some sort of yeah.
you need to demonstrate it, notvocalize it.
Dan (22:51):
Right, right.
So you want to make thatimpression and what?
And I think it was this videothere where the Dr Ryan was
saying you know, guys kind ofhave it easy, because all you
need to do is get a haircut andput on a clean suit and or a
nice pair of clothes and you'vealready separated, You've
already gone up on a 10 pointscale.
You've already gone up almostthe whole point as a man in
(23:18):
terms of attractiveness, whereaswomen have a little bit more of
a difficult time.
They have to do a lot of,sometimes plastic surgery and
everything else in order to bumpup in terms of the initial
attractiveness.
And he doesn't shy away fromthat.
He basically is like yeah, youknow what, don't judge a book by
its cover, but we all do judgea book by its cover, and that's
the at least.
That at least gets you to openthe door or open the book to
then read what's inside.
Yeah, so you need that you needthat attractive cover.
Charles (23:44):
You absolutely do.
And uh, there are, um, thereare things you can do that are
fairly simple, um, to maximize,I mean, hygiene is one of them.
I mean just looking like youknow you give a damn about being
clean and looking clean andsmelling clean and stuff like
that.
You got to do that.
You've got to pay people to cutyour hair on a regular basis
(24:06):
because I mean, yeah, maybe somepeople can do it on their own
and get a pretty good result.
Dan (24:10):
I mean, I got a flobie, you know, I just remember.
Do you remember those?
It was a vacuum vacuum cleanerwith the little the blade on it
oh my god, my hair was cut by aFlowbee.
Charles (24:21):
exclusive, you had one Multiple years.
Dan (24:23):
No, get out of here.
Charles (24:25):
You actually had one.
Grandparents bought one and cutmy hair with a Flowbee for I
would say probably middle schoolGet out of here.
Dan (24:35):
Did it ever come out the way?
Did you like it?
It wasn't bad, Okay, I mean itwas.
Charles (24:39):
I've never I mean, in all fairness, I've never used
the was mid.
It was okay, it was fine.
It didn't look great, but itdidn't look terrible.
Hey, I mean I've got a head.
I've got really thick hair.
Well, I I keep talking to thepresent tense I had really thick
hair where pretty much anythingyou know, I I could do a one
guard all over the whole thingokay, okay yeah, okay.
So yeah, with the flow b, it wasfine I've got, I've looked at
(25:02):
some pictures from that timeperiod and it's like, okay, I
look like a kid whose parentscut his hair, but not like
disaster level.
Dan (25:09):
Yeah, but back then I mean kids hair.
I mean nobody's walking aroundlike a supermodel.
Charles (25:16):
Yeah, it was.
Yeah, late 80s, early 90s.
It was all garbage so it wasfine.
But, um, one thing he talksabout is performative
masculinity and plumage andpeacocking and things like that
and I think we talked about that.
I don't remember if we talkedabout on last episode or maybe
you and I just talked about itprivately.
Um, I like the idea of wearinglike when you go out to
(25:44):
socialize, whether you're outlooking for girls or just
hanging out with your friends.
I like the idea of having aconversation piece as part of
your outfit, and I think thatmost guys can pick something
like the, the book by NeilStrauss, the game where he talks
about that guy mystery whowould wear like, uh, what is it?
(26:06):
A sequined top hat and a pinkfeather boa?
It's like no, most peopleshould not do that because I
mean, if somebody did that,walking into matters, I'd be
like, look at that fucking clown.
I mean I, yeah, but there issomething that you can do.
That is just a step above whatother people are probably
willing to do and that can beyour thing and, uh, you don't
(26:29):
wear it all the time and youhave, you have like a few of
them in your wardrobe, but I, Ithink it's important to to have
a piece that somebody has a goodchance of saying, oh, I like
that.
Fill in the blank um, last nightI went to a jukebox bingo at a
local german deli, okay, with myfriend tracy and my friend
(26:50):
other charles, um, which is whathe calls me, um, and I wore a
shirt I got recently a shortsleeve button up with dinosaurs
on it and, sure enough, I hadsomebody come up to me and say,
man, I really like your dinosaurshirt and you know it's it's a
little silly and but it wascomfortable, I like.
(27:11):
I like wearing clothes withbright colors and having
somebody just come up to tell methat they like my shirt
spontaneously.
It feels nice.
Yeah, if you're just wearing,you know, uh, an average heather
gray polo shirt, nobody's evergoing to walk up to you and say
I like your shirt, right?
Dan (27:25):
because that could mean actually something else at that
point.
Right, because it's like nobody, right, I feel like nobody does
that.
Oh, I love your heather grayshirt.
It's just like what are yougetting?
Charles (27:35):
at right?
It could be.
You know right.
Are you attracted to me?
Do you like my body?
Or it could be.
Are you trying to sell mesomething?
Or it could be right.
If you walk into a place with ashirt that has dinosaurs or
cats or codos on it or something, just something a little out of
the ordinary yeah, because itcan be left at just that.
Dan (27:52):
It could be like I like your shirt and then you know
exactly, and it legitimatelycould just be it's a cute shirt.
Charles (27:58):
Right, or you know, if you're looking to meet people
and have interactions, you couldgo immediately into oh thanks,
I love dinosaurs.
I loved dinosaurs since I was akid.
My favorite dinosaur is atitanosaur.
What's your favorite dinosaur?
And you could actually turninto a social interaction.
Obviously, I didn't do any ofthose things, but I could have
if I wanted to, Absolutely.
Dan (28:20):
Absolutely action.
Obviously, I didn't do any ofthose things, but I could have
if I wanted to, absolutely,absolutely.
Charles (28:23):
I mean it's.
It's happened in the past,right, yes, absolutely, um, so
yeah, I would say figure outwhat is something that is a
little bit uncomfortable for youto wear, that you think people
might notice, and just go aheadand try it and see what points
of what?
Dan (28:37):
triple it.
Charles (28:39):
do it head to toe.
Clown costume Um, yeah, so thatthat is something that I would
say is uh is a is a good habitto at least experiment with and
see how it goes.
Because, again, you gotta dosomething.
You don't want to just be thewhite piece of bread at the
(29:01):
restaurant, at the bar, at therun club, at the whatever.
Because if, if somebody isinterested in you and they think
you know whether guy, girl,friend, romantic interest,
whatever, if they're thinkingman, I'd like to, I'd like to
talk to that guy, but I don'tknow what to say.
If you're wearing a slightlysilly shirt, boy, it sure makes
it easy for them.
(29:22):
Yeah, and then there you go offto the races.
He, he did say something about,uh, defining masculinity as to
be a man, you have to have aspine and you have to have balls
, which I find the language alittle simplistic.
But look, the guy's an author,the guy's a personality.
He's got to find a way to saysomething quick and easy that
will resonate with people.
(29:43):
And so that's, I think, what hewas going for there when he
says you have to have a spine.
What he's made clear is youhave to be willing to stand up
and be seen and cast a shadow,and cast a shadow, and then when
he says you have to have balls,what he's referring to is you
(30:03):
have to be willing to take thatstand and then defend it and be
willing to say, yeah, this iswhat I believe and I'm not going
to back down and I like the wayhe said when you take a stand,
you cast a shadow right and nowyou're going to have to defend.
Dan (30:15):
There's people who are going to basically come out of
that shadow and try to basicallysay hey look, you know I'm
offended by this or I've got aproblem with this in some way.
Charles (30:24):
Or even just I have a question about this.
Why are you choosing to standfor this instead of?
Dan (30:28):
Oh, that would be nice.
People actually still askquestions these days, really.
Charles (30:31):
Yeah, you can get that occasionally, okay, and I mean
those are, I would say those arethe best kind of people, the
kind of people that are willingto say, hey, wait a second, I
thought you were about this, butnow you're standing up for this
.
That feels like a conflict tome.
I'd like to learn more tounderstand where you're coming
from.
Dan (30:50):
Yeah, that'd be nice.
Charles (30:53):
I try to approach people that way.
When I see, you know, when Isee one post that somebody makes
online that feels like it'sinconsistent with other stuff
that they've shared, yeah, youknow, I usually try to do that.
If there's somebody thatmatters to me and that I know
personally, then I do that withthem, not in front of everybody
else, but like, hey, you've saidthat this is a value, but now
(31:13):
you're saying this, so I'm alittle confused.
Is that something you want totalk about?
And I've had to do it recently,actually, and what was trump's
response to that?
Um, he and I, we, we don't talk, we don't communicate directly.
Dan (31:24):
Very often, oh, okay, not anymore.
Charles (31:28):
I think he's changed.
We're not as close as we usedto be.
Um, yeah, we would hang out onthe island.
He was so, so much more easygoing.
That's going to get cut.
Um, okay, one one thing that,uh, we recently talked a lot
(31:49):
with uh about Mel Robbins book,um, the let them theory, and uh,
we've also explored Dr Glover'swork quite a bit.
We've also explored Dr Glover'swork quite a bit, and one of
the things that I wanted tobring up was do you see any big
differences between and you canthrow in the Gottmans, really
(32:09):
anybody else we've talked abouton the show between Terabin's
method and any of the othervisionaries and luminaries that
we've discussed before?
Do you see anything much, muchdifferent?
Dan (32:22):
I don't see the end result being any different.
Charles (32:25):
Yeah, for me it's all about tone.
Dan (32:26):
He's got a different tone than the other ones have, but I
don't think he's reallysuggested anything that far I
think he really honors thatbehavioral economics approach to
things and I appreciate thatbecause that really answers the
why.
And I have a lot of times it'slike, well, why, I'm curious,
why do we behave this way, orwhy do humans interact this way,
or why do we feel this way?
(32:47):
And he is great way of kind ofcutting right through all of the
, the fluff and the the.
You know the shoulds that weget from society and from from
our world around us about.
You know people should beacting this way or should be
acting that way, even if they doalign with behavioral economics
.
What he's talking about.
It's not clear.
Those other people that we'vebeen listening to, it's not
(33:09):
clear exactly why they have likekind of touched it or danced
around it.
I feel he kind of gets to theroot of it it.
Charles (33:22):
I feel he kind of gets to the root of it.
Yeah, I would.
I would say that too, and andagain is.
And his, his delivery method isone that I think, especially
you know, listening to his audiobook, he really does get into
the weeds with the behavioraleconomics to the point where I
think it could, unless you'rereally motivated to understand
you, you know, and sort of get afresh perspective on
relationships.
Yeah, it can.
(33:42):
It can grate on you a littlebit, it can.
It's like, okay, I feel likeI'm listening to a 13 hour long
college lecture and I enjoyed it.
I thought it was great.
I like listening to his bookand I liked his style and I
think he's.
He was good at reading it andgood at performing the, the um,
the reading.
But, uh, I could definitely seesomebody thinking this isn't
(34:06):
but, but you're right, he didcut.
He cut the bs to the pointwhere he said stuff that would
be um, upsetting to some peopleand because it's just not stuff
we're used to hearing in blackand white, um, one of the points
he makes is that when it comesto relationships, we will both
(34:32):
men and women, will bothessentially settle for the best
partner they think they'recapable of getting, and so
what's nice is when you findyourself in a situation where
you're with a woman who youthink is the best girl you could
ever get, and she thinks you'rethe best guy you could ever get
, and you live happily everafter and he said that's like a
(34:52):
happy accident.
Dan (34:53):
That's not right.
That's not usually the case.
Charles (34:56):
You can have a relationship but not be in love
yeah, that was, yeah, the wholehis attitude about love and
being in love and relationships.
As far as romantic love goesand he delves into that quite
deeply in his, in his book um,yeah, it's, there were some
(35:16):
bitter pills to swallow.
Dan (35:18):
So, with looking at things that way, Did we get into on the
last podcast about his his takeon compromise I don't remember
if that was us talking again orif that was on the podcast where
he basically doesn't believe incompromise, and on the Diary of
the CEO podcast you knowStephen was asking him is just
like, well, doesn't everybodyhave to compromise when you get
(35:38):
into relationship?
Isn't that part of it?
And he said just be careful ofusing that term, because that
implies that you are sacrificingsomething that you want and
almost with this expectationthat the other person is going
to sacrifice something that theywant, and that brings in like a
dangerous situation.
And what was enlightening forme was the way he reframed that
(36:01):
and said instead of having thosecompromises, rethink your
selection criteria before you gointo a relationship.
So have fewer ands, right?
So I want, right, I wantsomebody who are deal break,
deal breakers, right, so themore ands you have, the more
expensive it is in terms of whator how difficult it's going to
(36:23):
be to live in and have a happyrelationship if you've got all
of these and wants to talk aboutquantum mechanics and you know,
is loves, loves to go horsebackriding and all these other
things and instead, you know,figure out what you want out of
(36:48):
a romantic partner and all thoseother ends, the, you know, the
ability to be a good bowlingpartner and and and you know all
these other things.
Find that from from otherplaces and other people, yeah,
and, and so I think I think thatwas a great.
That was a great way ofthinking about going into
relationships where you're notthen requiring a compromise.
And what you said was being alsobe a little selfish and be loud
(37:11):
about being selfish, so meaning, don't be afraid to communicate
what you want, and so that wayyou find somebody who then hears
that communication, hears thethings that you need and that
you want, and is okay with them,so that it is not down the road
a compromise for them, wherethey're like, oh, oh, I didn't
realize you, you know you wantedthis or you needed things this
(37:33):
way, or you wanted to behave inthat way, because you kind of
hit it at the beginning.
You're trying to put your bestfoot, you didn't want to be too
demanding, and things like that.
He's like no, you know, youreally should be a little bit
selfish and vocalize that, andthat's really about being your
true self.
Charles (37:50):
Yeah, one of the things he gets into in the book which
I'll happily provide a littlebit of a preview on because it's
very relevant to what we'retalking about right now is he's
mostly against the idea ofdating, where he says that what
most of us do when we are datingsomeone is we try to create the
(38:13):
most novel and exciting versionof our life and then grab them
by the hand and walk themthrough that.
Or it's like, um, like otherexperts in the field that you
and I agree with.
You know, the first time youmeet somebody new it's it's
either let's grab a quick drinkor let's grab coffee and have a
conversation, try to figure outwhat each of us is actually
(38:34):
about.
Um, but he says, as soon as is,as soon as possible, your time
that you spend dating thisperson should be more about
bringing them into kind of theroutine of your life and not
going straight to let's go outand, you know, play mini golf.
(38:58):
He's like if you're, if you'rean avid mini golfer, then by all
means bring her along, but ifyou're not and you're just going
out of your way to do thingsthat you think she'll find fun
and, you know, going on aweekend trip to a spa that
you've never been to before andnever would go to on your own,
and you're just doing it tobring her along.
It's like, yeah, you're.
You're just prolonging thisprocess of showing somebody else
(39:19):
the most exciting version ofyour life that doesn't actually
exist and getting them used tothat.
And then by the time real lifekicks in and your real schedule
kicks in and your real habitsand interests kick in, it's like
who is this person?
This isn't who I got to knowover the last.
Dan (39:35):
That's a great way of thinking about it, absolutely,
because, yeah, if you're notseeing the day-to-day right at
the very beginning, you don'teven have anything to contrast
it with.
It's kind of like this wholething with we're talking about
with the guys who don't knowwhat it's like to have sex with
a woman because they've neverhad it before, right it's.
It's like all right, well,you're not seeing what reality
is at that point.
Right, and yeah, it's okay todo those things, but this should
(39:58):
be an occasional vacation orwhatever.
But yeah, the root of thatrelationship really should be
founded on what your day-to-dayroutine looks like.
Right, and so that's that's.
But then how do you, how do youconvey that?
How do you pull that somethinglike that off in reality?
Charles (40:21):
you basically have to keep your, your dates as
informal and as close to thekinds of things that you enjoy
and you have do solo.
So that is, you know, going outfor coffee, going out for fun
but inexpensive meals, um, goingfor walks, I mean, in my case,
going for walks.
I mean, in my case, going forwalks, basically building enough
rapport up that she feels safeenough with you.
(40:44):
That spending some time at herhouse or spending some time at
your house and just cookingdinner together and watching a
movie or playing a board game, Imean, yeah, you don't invite
somebody to do that for thefirst date because any sane
woman is going to be like no,I'm not coming to your house,
you know to Uno and chill.
Yeah, exactly Not, not for afirst date.
I mean, there's nothing wrongwith that.
(41:06):
If somebody is open to it andyou're looking to keep things
casual, I get it.
But, um, I think, I think mostwomen would be reasonably um,
yeah, you just scared off orturned off to.
Yeah.
Um, yeah, you scared off orturned off to.
Yeah, you needed some rapport.
Absolutely yeah, you build somerapport, you show yourself as a
sane, safe person.
But then, yeah, as soon as youcan get it to the point of, yeah
, let's, let's hang out and uh,so no big fancy dinners?
(41:30):
no, you know, no weekend cruisesto places okay, not, certainly
not at the beginning, not untilnot until you're in an
established relationship withsomebody that you know you want
to be in a relationship with.
And I'm revisiting a part twoof Dr Glover's book that you and
I are going to cover at somepoint.
Uh, dating essentials for menand um, and his big thing that
(41:51):
he emphasizes is delay sex aslong as you can as well, so that
you can really keep your headon on the target of.
I need to figure out what thisgal's about whether we're
compatible and as soon as I seesome big signs that we're not, I
need to cut this off so thatI'm not wasting her time and
she's not wasting mine and I canmove on to spending my time
(42:14):
with somebody else.
And that gets harder after youstarted having sex with somebody
, a hundred percent.
So yeah, um and I think I thinkTerabain would probably agree
with that as well Um, that it'sit's better to be in a position
where you can hire slow and firefast, and as much as men would
probably have the tendency todismiss that and say no, just
(42:35):
cause I started having sex witha girl doesn't mean it's not
going to be harder for me to uhbreak up.
It's like well I.
I get the motivation why youmight feel the need to say that,
but because you want to havesex.
Dan (42:48):
That's why that's what you say.
Charles (42:49):
It's the only reason why you're saying it right but
hey, you and I are are differentguys in a lot of different ways
, but we both kind of agree withthat.
Like if you're in a newrelationship and you start
having sex with somebody, it isgoing to be more difficult for
you when has it ever not beenmore difficult?
Dan (43:05):
right, I mean that's yeah, it's.
Charles (43:07):
It's harder to pull the plug, and that's why but
everybody's the exception right,it's nothing of what everybody
thinks of the exception, right,and that's that's why, you know,
with some of the um breakup andreconciliation advice that you
and I have talked about, youknow where a guy is like oh, my
girlfriend broke up with me, I'dlove to get back together with
her.
Some of the advice out there is, you know, basically okay, well
(43:27):
, if she reaches out to you, ifshe makes contact, get her back,
get her back to your place fordinner and, you know, have fun
and hook up with her.
Dan (43:56):
And my counter advice is no , do not chance that both of you
are going to think that areconciled relationship is the
best idea, even though it mightnot be and the other part of
that is you don't know how thisperson has changed or hasn't
changed, and you also don't knowhow that's going to mix in with
(44:17):
the changes that you've hadsince you've been in that
relationship, right and?
And you start throwing, likeyou said, sex in there.
Now the the waters are muddiedand it's it's going to be very
difficult to distinguish becauseyou're going to go back to old
routines as well.
So you're going to be drawnback to old behaviors, not from
from having that closeness, fromhaving that intimacy yeah, the
more.
Charles (44:37):
The more that feels like old times, the more you're
going to act like old times, andthe way you acted in the old
times is what led you to gettingbroken up with in the first
place yeah so I would say andand yeah, it's the idea that you
know two people are in arelationship and they split up
and go their separate ways.
the odds that while they've gonetheir separate ways, they've
(44:58):
grown and healed in ways thatare going to bring them back
together it's pretty slim.
Usually the opposite happens,you know.
Either you know they don't growat all, either one of the two
parties you know just devolvesas a result of the breakup and,
you know, relies on some oftheir maladaptive coping skills
(45:19):
to get through the pain of thebreakup, or, if they do both
experience some kind of a glowup in a grow up, it's more
likely than not that that'sgoing to be taking them further,
apart from the people thatfound each other in the first
place and not back together,it's not impossible right, it's,
it's, yeah, it's a, it's arealization that you should have
(45:41):
in the back of your head, butwe'll, we can revisit uh
breakups and makeups down theroad in a little bit more detail
.
One of the frustrations I seemen sharing online is the idea
of they kind of feel entitled tohaving good romantic
relationships because they'regood guys or because they're
(46:01):
nice guys or because they'rekind men.
And what is clear from DrTerriban's work and also just
you know, one of the things Ialways recommend is, guys, you
should have women who are yourfriends and women who are your
friends that you actually you'renot trying to make them your
girlfriend, they're just yourfriends and you're able to be
(46:23):
honest and nonjudgmental witheach other and you can ask them
their opinions on what holes youmight have in your game.
And again, you have tocultivate a relationship with a
woman where she feels safeenough to be honest with you,
that you're not going to freakout, blow up, start crying or
something like that, Because if,if she's got a taste that you
(46:44):
might do any of those things,you're not going to get a
straight answer from her.
Dan (46:46):
And I don't blame her.
Charles (46:47):
She doesn't want to put up with that.
None of us do so, um, but youshould be able to say to your
girlfriends, okay, what I'm notgetting the results that I would
like out of my romanticrelationships.
If, if I gave you a pass totell you know, offer any
criticism that comes to mind,and I'm, I'm not going to hold
(47:08):
it against you, I'm not going tofreak out.
I really am looking to improvemyself.
What would you say I needed tofocus on?
Definitely do that and keep inmind that being a nice guy,
being a kind guy, kind guy, um,not being a dangerous guy all
those things are the bareminimum.
So for healthy women, none ofthose are going to set you apart
from their other options.
That is going to be theabsolute least that they're
(47:31):
looking for.
Like, oh, you're a good guy, ohyou're you're not going to make
a, uh, unwanted physical passat me during a date.
Like, yeah, no crap.
That that is the bare minimumfor how a civilized, right,
attractive man with lots ofoptions behaves.
Only a desperate guy who is,you know, either ethically or
(47:53):
mentally unbalanced is going tothink that, oh well, you know, I
didn't, I didn't try to kissher when she clearly didn't want
to kiss me.
So that makes me a good person?
No, that just again.
For healthy women, that is thebare minimum, yep.
And so if that's the kind ofgirl you're looking for, which
we all should be, you, youshouldn't be giving yourself
(48:13):
credit for just being normal andexpecting women to lay down and
spread their legs for you justbecause you're not a terrible
person.
All right, so we'll leave itthere and, uh, we'll see what we
come up with for the nextepisode.
Thanks, dan.
Bye-bye.
That wraps up this episode ofthe mindfully masculine podcast.
We hope our conversation aboutdr orion taraban's ideas gave
(48:35):
you something to think about,whether it's the way you view
relationships, masculinity orjust the role you play in your
own life.
We'll be back with anotherepisode on Monday and then
return to our regular releaseschedule.
For all of our full episodes,audio and video, visit
mindfullymasculinecom.
Thanks for listening and we'llsee you next time.
It's not enough to just be a quote unquote great guy.
It's like you have to be agreat guy who's also willing to
put yourself out there to say,hey look, everybody, I'm, I'm a
great guy, and here's why.
Yeah, and you have to be ableto demonstrate that in ways that
are not easily faked, becauseit's a woman's job to figure out
.
Ok, is this guy really a greatguy, or is this guy somebody
(00:21):
who's just practiced acting andlooking like he's a great guy?
Dan (00:24):
Well, and I think what the doctor would say here is what
does great guy even mean?
Like what makes you great?
You need to go further thanthat.
You can't just say I'm a greatguy, oh, because what you?
Oh, one of the last things youshould.
Charles (00:37):
Like animals.
I mean like One of the lastthings you should do is try to
use your words to convincepeople you're a great guy,
because words, words are supercheap.
Welcome to the mindfullymasculine podcast.
This is charles, and thisepisode is coming to you a
little later than planned.
My work schedule has beenreally busy and also I had some
technical issues that tooklonger to resolve.
(00:59):
But here we are you're gettingan episode now, another one on
monday, and then we'll be backto our usual schedule.
This week we're talking aboutDr Orion Terriban's appearance
on Diary of a CEO.
He's a psychologist with a verydirect, no-nonsense style who
looks at relationships throughthe lens of behavioral economics
.
His ideas are provocative thatmen are invisible until they
(01:22):
bring value, that relationshipsare fundamentally transactional
and that masculinity comes downto spine and balls.
Dan and I will dig into what weagree with, where we push back
and how his perspective compareswith other voices we've
explored on the show.
For all of our full episodes,audio and video, check out
mindfullymasculinecom and enjoy.
Dan (01:43):
Good morning Charles.
Charles (01:54):
Hello Dan.
Dan (01:54):
How are you?
I'm doing well, excellent.
Check out mindfullymasculinecomand enjoy part of your day.
Charles (02:00):
It is no best part of my week we have still yet to
land on a long-term series, likewe usually do, and we're kind
of just uh, exploring some ofthe things that interest us
right now, that we are that wefind interesting, and so our
last episode was about the aigirlfriends and as part of that
(02:21):
we watched three video clipswhere it was discussed, and one
of those clips kind of grabbedus both a little harder than the
other two, which was the?
Uh, it was from an excerpt fromthe diary of a ceo podcast with
uh orion taraban, who is adoctor of psychology and he has
(02:42):
a very prominent YouTube channel.
I'm surprised I'd never heardof this guy before.
Maybe I'd seen his stuff andjust hadn't looked at it.
But Psych Hacks is the name ofhis YouTube channel and he's
written a book called the Valueof Others, and so he basically
looks at romantic or sexualrelationships through the prism
(03:05):
of behavioral economics and, uh,I find his, his style really
appeals to me because he reallyjust kind of boils everything
down to data and and here's howpeople behave and here's why
they behave that way, and here'sit's.
It's very analytical, which,like, I always try to remember
(03:30):
when I come upon informationlike that and it really
resonates with me.
I also try to keep in mind okay, man, there are some people who
would really not like this atall.
Just because the style is notis not what they're looking for
when it comes to relationshipadvice.
I mean, and you know, I'm, I'ma little bit of, uh, I'm, I'm a
bit sentimental, I'm a bitromantic and, um, I'm a bit in
(03:54):
the camp of I want myrelationship advice, or just the
way I talk about relationshipsI want there to be a little bit
of woo-woo and in there and thisguy has no time for that
whatsoever.
Dan (04:07):
Yeah.
To the point where, yeah, I, soI I've watched the full episode
that we're going to talk abouttoday and I've also listened to
his entire book and, uh, I foundboth to be extremely valuable,
but also, like, as I waslistening to it, I was very
aware of the fact, like thethings that make me into this
(04:28):
are the things that I think alot of other people would be
like I am not into this at allinteresting the way I look at it
is I appreciate him because heexplains to me why the woo woo,
some of that woo woo exists,like the, and, and to me that
kind of validates it and allowsme to then, I guess, more freely
(04:54):
dive into those types ofexperiences and knowing that
there is a reason for it, it'snot all based on pure feelings
and it reassures me that a lotof my instincts and intuitions
are more accurate than Iactually was believing to begin
(05:14):
with, and it's kind ofdismissing it.
Oh, you know, I'm doing this orshe's doing that because of just
the way we feel and there's noreal reason for it.
And then my mind goes to okay,could that be leading us down a
dangerous path?
And it could be.
But he explains what paths youpossibly could take based on
(05:36):
what you're doing in thosespecific situations, and I guess
we'll get more into thosespecific examples on the podcast
.
Charles (05:41):
Yeah, can you?
Can you think of anything inparticular that really jumped
out or resonated with you themost of what he had to say?
I mean, it doesn't have to bethe number one.
Yeah, something big, thatreally right.
Dan (05:53):
Yeah, um, a lot of it was just that be aware of what
you're bringing to the table,right in terms of the energy and
the value that you bring to therelationship.
People are only in, not only,but really people are in
(06:15):
relationships.
They have relationships becausethey're getting something out
of it right At some level.
Right and the value, and itcould just be good feelings,
that that is a valid, that youwere bringing somebody good
feelings and that is valid.
And to me that is nottransactional, that is not a
cold, you know business type ofrelationship.
It is transactional.
Charles (06:34):
But I think, okay, part of what he wants to do is is
kind of take the the negativestigma away from a word like
transactional right I.
I don't remember exactly thephraseology he uses, but he
basically says a successfulrelationship happens when two
people are trading non-identicalgoods that are of comparable
(06:55):
value to each other.
Because I mean, if you and Iare in a business relationship
and all I have to offer you arethe exact same things you have
to offer me, no matter howvaluable they are, it doesn't
matter.
There's no relationship to behad there.
If all you can offer me is whatI already have and all I can
offer you is what you alreadyhave, then there's no reason for
us to trade or engage with eachother at all.
(07:16):
It has to be I've got somethingto give you and you've got
something to give me, andthey're very different from each
other, but we both think thatthey're worth about the same and
the closer we can get to that,so the more different your
offering is from mine and mineis from yours, the more I'm like
Ooh, this is not something Ican.
I can't make this up on my own.
(07:37):
I have to get this from someoneelse.
And the more close they are invalue to each other, the more
excited I'm going to be toengage in that transaction with
you and we're okay with talkingabout business relationships
that way, 100%, because you knowI talk about capitalism and how
I consider myself a capitalistand there's a lot of especially
(08:03):
among the people I hang out with, because I spend a lot of time
with both girls and guys whokind of lean center left or
further than that, and socapitalism has a bit of a
negative connotation among youngpeople, among a lot of women,
among anybody who considersthemselves leftist or
progressive.
(08:27):
And what I always say iscapitalism to me is not that
bank's too big to fail.
We have to hand them a bunch ofmoney.
Capitalism to me is the farmergrows the best tomatoes you've
ever tasted and he takes them tothe market and you're happy to
hand over $5 for a little basket.
Sure, that's the version ofcapitalism that I, that I
support and that I think is goodfor people, that I support and
that I think is good for people.
And so this kind of capitalismwhere his tomatoes are worth at
(08:50):
least five, his little basket'sworth at least $5 to me and I'm
happy to hand it over and my $5is worth way more to him than
his basket of tomatoes, yeah,and so we're able to both engage
in a transaction that we bothwalk away feeling really good
about.
And transferring that topersonal relationships gets a
(09:11):
little cringy for peoplesometimes and I I understand
that, but that doesn't make itnot true, right?
And?
And focusing on what, whatthose things are, that men and
women and um, in the book heuses the analogy of, of captains
(09:34):
and passengers, and how thosedon't necessarily correlate to
gender at all.
Um, but, yeah, you, basicallyyou have to come into the
relationship with two differentroles and two different needs.
If you're going to have andwe've talked about that with
other books that we've exploredtoo about polarity there has to
be, there has to be a big enoughdifference in what you want and
(09:58):
what you offer in order to findsomebody that is going to want
to engage with you, to findsomebody that is going to want
to engage with you.
And, uh, yeah, I, I, really Ilike the idea of being able to
understand this in in terms thatwe're all maybe not all, but
many of us are more familiarwith, which is the terms of, you
know, a, a trading transaction.
Dan (10:20):
Yeah.
Charles (10:22):
But again I realized how some people could get
uncomfortable with that.
Um, one of the things he is aconcern of his that he talked
about quite a bit on the podcastis the fact that, um,
relationships, um, the number ofrelationships are decreasing,
and that's I was a littlesurprised to find that out.
(10:42):
That's relationships across theboard, it's casual
relationships, it's datingrelationships, it's marriages.
It's like just two peoplecoming together and choosing to
get in a relationship with eachother is not happening as much,
and why do you think?
Dan (11:01):
that is Like what jumps out to you about that I think these
days we have a lot more optionsavailable to us and so we don't
necessarily need to getmultiple options met or needs
met from one person.
And I think in the past, when wedidn't have as much access to
(11:24):
information, we didn't have asmuch access to travel, we were
limited in terms of the optionswe had available to us in terms
of relationships, and so a lotof times we'd end up kind of
being in a relationship withsomebody and needing to have
that relationship in order toget a lot of our needs met,
(11:47):
whereas now we've got so manydifferent I mean even not not
even like sexually related,right, so like just interest.
In the video he talks about howhe wanted to.
Initially he wanted to findsomebody.
He had all these selectioncriteria coming up and looking
for a partner you know, a womanthat he could not only have a
romantic relationship with butalso want to talk about quantum
(12:08):
mechanics and loved horsebackriding and all this.
And you know he went to acounselor and the guy was like
why do you need a woman to talkabout quantum mechanics?
Like why and he thought aboutit no, you can find a guy or a
group of people to meet those,all those individual needs, and
I think that's one of the thereasons now is the people are
(12:30):
decreasing the amount ofrelationships we have is because
romantic relationships isbecause we can get those needs
met from other ways, includingpornography right that's another
.
He did talk about that quite abit and that's the thing is a
lot of younger guys they'refalling into these, you know,
pornography addictions, because,first of all, it's everywhere,
(12:51):
right, so it's.
It's on all the social mediaplatforms, it's not just on only
fans and everything elseLooking for porn, to find porn.
And it's very right and exactlyso.
It's very right and exactly so.
It's very accessible and it'snot quite as good as having you
know sex with somebody, but it's, you know it's close enough or
they're kind of settling forthat and the point, but it's
good enough.
Charles (13:11):
And the point you brought up last in the last
episode was if you've never hada girlfriend before, you don't
know how much how good it'd be.
You don't know how muchdifferent, yeah, you know,
whacking off to porn by yourselfis from having a woman in your
life who wants to be physicallyintimate with you, right, and so
if you never, you know sampledthe difference, then yeah,
(13:33):
you're never gonna, you're nevergonna realize what you're
missing out on.
You're just gonna assume, oh,it's probably about the same.
Dan (13:40):
Yeah, and the other thing too, is that there's a cost to
finding and having a girlfriend,right In terms of time and
effort and also finances as well.
Right, it's a lot.
It's a lot less time, a lot lesseffort and a lot less
vulnerability and the potentialfor everything Right so so you
really need to be sold that thejuice is worth the squeeze Right
(14:02):
In order to make that effort,and so, yeah, that's why guys
are having relationships with AIgirlfriends and and with only
fans, girls and everything elseRight.
It's a lot easier.
Charles (14:14):
And it's really hard for me to get concerned with the
macro level of oh, if thistrend continues, there's going
to be a population collapse andit's, you know, as two guys
without kids it's like big deal,it's not going to be my problem
, yeah, so it's hard for me toget excited about trying to
(14:44):
participate in the macro levelfixes of this when I really, you
know'll, it'll work out the waythat it works out.
Yeah, if there's a populationcollapse and if the world gets
worse because we're not makingenough babies right now, my
attitude about that and thatcould change.
You know, who knows what thefuture is going to hold.
Maybe, you know, I end uphaving a kid and then it becomes
a really big deal to me, butthat's not right now.
So so it's like, you know, Idon't really care that much.
Dan (15:02):
He did make an interesting point that is like a tangent to
that, which is, if guys are athome pleasuring themselves
masturbating to porn all thetime, they then lose the drive
to do other things and becontributing members of society
in terms of building companiesand, you know, building bridges
(15:25):
and roads and all the otherthings that humans do when men
are in a horny state.
Quote unquote right, it drivesyou to do things.
Same thing with that hunger.
You're not going to go and huntunless you're hungry, Right?
So why are you going to go andrisk yourself out in the
wilderness trying to hunt downsome animal If you're not hungry
?
It's not worth it.
Same thing you need to behungry and horny in this case.
(15:48):
If you're a little horny, you'regoing to tend to do things more
.
And I know, when I've taken abreak from masturbating, I do
have more energy and I do feellike I wanted to go out and do
more things.
It's not always sex related,but it's.
I do feel like there's thisunderlying base of energy that
rises up.
I already have fairly lowenergy cause I don't sleep well
most of the time, so I'm verysensitive to knowing when I've
(16:10):
got more energy and when I'vegot less energy and I know the
times where I've taken a breakfrom from, from, you know, from
masturbating.
Yeah, I've, I've definitely gotmore energy all right.
Well, if I ever take a break, Iwill weigh in, and you know,
because I know, I know you'vegot your stance on that, where I
know glover was talking aboutnot you know going for a while,
and I think other other peoplethat we've read about have said
(16:32):
and I've complained about it,like why exactly right everybody
talking about masturbate?
Charles (16:37):
like, if you're an influencer in the masculine
space, the first thing you haveto do is start telling people
not to masturbate anymore.
It is like I am not signing onto that, right?
Uh, I I'm not telling peoplemasturbate, more, masturbate,
less masturbate at all.
I, I'm staying out of it.
So you do what you want to do I.
But I yeah, I've never, at thetimes that I've been single and
I've been looking for a partner,either by being more social or
(17:01):
by being on the apps or whateverI've never felt like my, my
masturbation frequency wouldhave an impact on that.
Dan (17:10):
Well, you know, I think that also comes down to our our
testosterone levels as well.
So that's the things I think.
Charles (17:15):
If you if you're like a greater than sign in the number
1600, maybe then you don't needto take a break.
Dan (17:21):
Right's.
The thing is more, maybe that'smore maintenance than anything
else.
Right, that's, that's a yeah soI think if you, yeah, if you
don't have and these days youknow the average, you know the
average guy's testosterone levelis a lot lower than it was, you
know, 34 years ago.
Charles (17:36):
It's just constantly decreasing and I I've never seen
really any conclusive.
I mean, you know, people talkabout microplastics, they'll
talk about pollution, talk aboutall sorts of things, but I and
they'll also talk about thepsychological effect well you're
not spending time around othermen doing difficult things, and
that has an impact on it as well, I think it's probably our
(17:56):
society is moving, it's allgenerally moving the
testosterone level down becausealso, as you gain weight, the
fat that you carry gives offestrogen too, and that basically
negates the testosterone youhave in your body as well.
Dan (18:11):
And we all know that the world is getting fatter and
we're not getting any thinner.
Charles (18:16):
At least the West is Right.
Dan (18:17):
Yeah, absolutely.
And I mean that's making itsway over to the east, too, with
our foods and everything else.
Yeah, so absolutely.
I think it's a logicalconclusion that, yeah, we're not
, definitely we're not promotingmore testosterone in men in any
way.
Yeah, and from from anything inour lifestyles.
Charles (18:33):
Yeah, and, and we've talked about how, just you know,
a slight bump in that canmotivate you to do things that
you were were not willing to dootherwise can motivate you to do
things that you were were notwilling to do otherwise.
Right, and whether that'sthrough, you know you start
lifting, you start eating betteror you start getting exogenous
hormone injections.
It does change your, yourwillingness to get up and get
(18:53):
crap done and it just cause it'sweird, it you feel
uncomfortable if you're notgetting up and getting crap done
.
Dan (19:00):
Yep and uh, it's a magic vial that is able to make that
transform in the lives of manymen our age and younger, and the
nice thing is that sometimesthat's just the kickstart that
you need and all of a suddenit's like, oh, I've got the
energy to do this.
Charles (19:17):
Well, maybe now I'm more willing to eat that food
that I'm not really a fan of andand pay attention to the things
that I'm eating, and maybe I'llstart walking or moving or
exercising more going out forlong walks and definitely, and
so when I started all that, andnow it's a habit, now it's
something that right, um, I, myidentity is now I'm a guy who
goes out for long walks and Ienjoy it right and and and
(19:39):
that's, and there you go, andthen so you, maybe that's,
that's what needs to happen.
Dan (19:43):
And then, before you know it, you know the guys who never
had girlfriends and never hadreal sex before you know they
have it once and like, oh okay,Maybe now that I'm, I'm, I'm the
guy that goes out and has sex.
You know it's like, instead ofsitting home and masturbating,
so here's a quote I want to talkabout.
Charles (19:58):
He says that men are invisible until they offer value
.
I would say that really appliesto everybody.
It's just what do you have todo to offer that value when?
I think women, because in mostWestern societies women are the
(20:33):
gatekeepers on sexual intimacyand women are going to be
pursued by men for sexualopportunities.
They have some inherent valuein just the fact that they are a
woman.
In a Western society whereromantic love and consent,
consensual sex, is the norm, um,they, they get to have some of
that value to other men just bybeing a woman, where I don't
know that men have the same kindof intrinsic value to women
(20:58):
just for being a man.
And so, yeah, I do feel likemen have to.
If they want to be consideredas a viable option in a dating
market or the sexual marketplace, they have to clearly not only
bring something to the table buthave a method of advertising
(21:18):
the fact that they bringsomething to the table.
Well said, where it's.
It's not enough to just be aquote-unquote great guy.
It's like you have to be agreat guy who's also willing to
put yourself out there to sayhey look, everybody, I'm, I'm a
great guy, and here's why yeahand you have to be able to
demonstrate that in ways thatare not easily faked, because
(21:39):
it's it's a woman's job tofigure out.
Okay, is this guy really a greatguy, or is this guy somebody
who's just practiced acting andlooking like he's a great guy?
Dan (21:46):
well, and I think what the doctor would say here is what
does great guy even mean?
Like, what makes you great?
Right, you need to go furtherthan that.
You can't just say I'm, I'm agreat guy, oh, because what you
oh.
Charles (21:58):
One of the last things you're like one of the last
things like animals.
I mean one of the last thingsyou like.
One of the last things likeanimals?
I mean like one of the lastthings you should do is is try
to use your words to convincepeople you're a great guy,
because words, words are supercheap and then I'll decide if
you're amazing and fun and sexyand hilarious and all all those,
all those labels that are supereasy to just apply to yourself.
(22:20):
It's like no show, don't tell,right?
Dan (22:23):
Yeah.
Charles (22:25):
And I think that's certainly true for men who are
looking to attract women.
It's like if you're justtelling a girl, either on your
dating profile or in person, I'msmart, I'm successful, I'm
funny, and it's like, well, thepeople who actually are those
things don't usually feel theneed to tell people that they
are, and so, like, well, thepeople who actually are those
things don't usually feel theneed to tell people that they
are, yeah, and so but at thesame time, you do need to show
(22:47):
some sort of yeah.
you need to demonstrate it, notvocalize it.
Dan (22:51):
Right, right.
So you want to make thatimpression and what?
And I think it was this videothere where the Dr Ryan was
saying you know, guys kind ofhave it easy, because all you
need to do is get a haircut andput on a clean suit and or a
nice pair of clothes and you'vealready separated, You've
already gone up on a 10 pointscale.
You've already gone up almostthe whole point as a man in
(23:18):
terms of attractiveness, whereaswomen have a little bit more of
a difficult time.
They have to do a lot of,sometimes plastic surgery and
everything else in order to bumpup in terms of the initial
attractiveness.
And he doesn't shy away fromthat.
He basically is like yeah, youknow what, don't judge a book by
its cover, but we all do judgea book by its cover, and that's
the at least.
That at least gets you to openthe door or open the book to
then read what's inside.
Yeah, so you need that you needthat attractive cover.
Charles (23:44):
You absolutely do.
And uh, there are, um, thereare things you can do that are
fairly simple, um, to maximize,I mean, hygiene is one of them.
I mean just looking like youknow you give a damn about being
clean and looking clean andsmelling clean and stuff like
that.
You got to do that.
You've got to pay people to cutyour hair on a regular basis
(24:06):
because I mean, yeah, maybe somepeople can do it on their own
and get a pretty good result.
Dan (24:10):
I mean, I got a flobie, you know, I just remember.
Do you remember those?
It was a vacuum vacuum cleanerwith the little the blade on it
oh my god, my hair was cut by aFlowbee.
Charles (24:21):
exclusive, you had one Multiple years.
Dan (24:23):
No, get out of here.
Charles (24:25):
You actually had one.
Grandparents bought one and cutmy hair with a Flowbee for I
would say probably middle schoolGet out of here.
Dan (24:35):
Did it ever come out the way?
Did you like it?
It wasn't bad, Okay, I mean itwas.
Charles (24:39):
I've never I mean, in all fairness, I've never used
the was mid.
It was okay, it was fine.
It didn't look great, but itdidn't look terrible.
Hey, I mean I've got a head.
I've got really thick hair.
Well, I I keep talking to thepresent tense I had really thick
hair where pretty much anythingyou know, I I could do a one
guard all over the whole thingokay, okay yeah, okay.
So yeah, with the flow b, it wasfine I've got, I've looked at
(25:02):
some pictures from that timeperiod and it's like, okay, I
look like a kid whose parentscut his hair, but not like
disaster level.
Dan (25:09):
Yeah, but back then I mean kids hair.
I mean nobody's walking aroundlike a supermodel.
Charles (25:16):
Yeah, it was.
Yeah, late 80s, early 90s.
It was all garbage so it wasfine.
But, um, one thing he talksabout is performative
masculinity and plumage andpeacocking and things like that
and I think we talked about that.
I don't remember if we talkedabout on last episode or maybe
you and I just talked about itprivately.
Um, I like the idea of wearinglike when you go out to
(25:44):
socialize, whether you're outlooking for girls or just
hanging out with your friends.
I like the idea of having aconversation piece as part of
your outfit, and I think thatmost guys can pick something
like the, the book by NeilStrauss, the game where he talks
about that guy mystery whowould wear like, uh, what is it?
(26:06):
A sequined top hat and a pinkfeather boa?
It's like no, most peopleshould not do that because I
mean, if somebody did that,walking into matters, I'd be
like, look at that fucking clown.
I mean I, yeah, but there issomething that you can do.
That is just a step above whatother people are probably
willing to do and that can beyour thing and, uh, you don't
(26:29):
wear it all the time and youhave, you have like a few of
them in your wardrobe, but I, Ithink it's important to to have
a piece that somebody has a goodchance of saying, oh, I like
that.
Fill in the blank um, last nightI went to a jukebox bingo at a
local german deli, okay, with myfriend tracy and my friend
(26:50):
other charles, um, which is whathe calls me, um, and I wore a
shirt I got recently a shortsleeve button up with dinosaurs
on it and, sure enough, I hadsomebody come up to me and say,
man, I really like your dinosaurshirt and you know it's it's a
little silly and but it wascomfortable, I like.
(27:11):
I like wearing clothes withbright colors and having
somebody just come up to tell methat they like my shirt
spontaneously.
It feels nice.
Yeah, if you're just wearing,you know, uh, an average heather
gray polo shirt, nobody's evergoing to walk up to you and say
I like your shirt, right?
Dan (27:25):
because that could mean actually something else at that
point.
Right, because it's like nobody, right, I feel like nobody does
that.
Oh, I love your heather grayshirt.
It's just like what are yougetting?
Charles (27:35):
at right?
It could be.
You know right.
Are you attracted to me?
Do you like my body?
Or it could be.
Are you trying to sell mesomething?
Or it could be right.
If you walk into a place with ashirt that has dinosaurs or
cats or codos on it or something, just something a little out of
the ordinary yeah, because itcan be left at just that.
Dan (27:52):
It could be like I like your shirt and then you know
exactly, and it legitimatelycould just be it's a cute shirt.
Charles (27:58):
Right, or you know, if you're looking to meet people
and have interactions, you couldgo immediately into oh thanks,
I love dinosaurs.
I loved dinosaurs since I was akid.
My favorite dinosaur is atitanosaur.
What's your favorite dinosaur?
And you could actually turninto a social interaction.
Obviously, I didn't do any ofthose things, but I could have
if I wanted to, Absolutely.
Dan (28:20):
Absolutely action.
Obviously, I didn't do any ofthose things, but I could have
if I wanted to, absolutely,absolutely.
Charles (28:23):
I mean it's.
It's happened in the past,right, yes, absolutely, um, so
yeah, I would say figure outwhat is something that is a
little bit uncomfortable for youto wear, that you think people
might notice, and just go aheadand try it and see what points
of what?
Dan (28:37):
triple it.
Charles (28:39):
do it head to toe.
Clown costume Um, yeah, so thatthat is something that I would
say is uh is a is a good habitto at least experiment with and
see how it goes.
Because, again, you gotta dosomething.
You don't want to just be thewhite piece of bread at the
(29:01):
restaurant, at the bar, at therun club, at the whatever.
Because if, if somebody isinterested in you and they think
you know whether guy, girl,friend, romantic interest,
whatever, if they're thinkingman, I'd like to, I'd like to
talk to that guy, but I don'tknow what to say.
If you're wearing a slightlysilly shirt, boy, it sure makes
it easy for them.
(29:22):
Yeah, and then there you go offto the races.
He, he did say something about,uh, defining masculinity as to
be a man, you have to have aspine and you have to have balls
, which I find the language alittle simplistic.
But look, the guy's an author,the guy's a personality.
He's got to find a way to saysomething quick and easy that
will resonate with people.
(29:43):
And so that's, I think, what hewas going for there when he
says you have to have a spine.
What he's made clear is youhave to be willing to stand up
and be seen and cast a shadow,and cast a shadow, and then when
he says you have to have balls,what he's referring to is you
(30:03):
have to be willing to take thatstand and then defend it and be
willing to say, yeah, this iswhat I believe and I'm not going
to back down and I like the wayhe said when you take a stand,
you cast a shadow right and nowyou're going to have to defend.
Dan (30:15):
There's people who are going to basically come out of
that shadow and try to basicallysay hey look, you know I'm
offended by this or I've got aproblem with this in some way.
Charles (30:24):
Or even just I have a question about this.
Why are you choosing to standfor this instead of?
Dan (30:28):
Oh, that would be nice.
People actually still askquestions these days, really.
Charles (30:31):
Yeah, you can get that occasionally, okay, and I mean
those are, I would say those arethe best kind of people, the
kind of people that are willingto say, hey, wait a second, I
thought you were about this, butnow you're standing up for this
.
That feels like a conflict tome.
I'd like to learn more tounderstand where you're coming
from.
Dan (30:50):
Yeah, that'd be nice.
Charles (30:53):
I try to approach people that way.
When I see, you know, when Isee one post that somebody makes
online that feels like it'sinconsistent with other stuff
that they've shared, yeah, youknow, I usually try to do that.
If there's somebody thatmatters to me and that I know
personally, then I do that withthem, not in front of everybody
else, but like, hey, you've saidthat this is a value, but now
(31:13):
you're saying this, so I'm alittle confused.
Is that something you want totalk about?
And I've had to do it recently,actually, and what was trump's
response to that?
Um, he and I, we, we don't talk, we don't communicate directly.
Dan (31:24):
Very often, oh, okay, not anymore.
Charles (31:28):
I think he's changed.
We're not as close as we usedto be.
Um, yeah, we would hang out onthe island.
He was so, so much more easygoing.
That's going to get cut.
Um, okay, one one thing that,uh, we recently talked a lot
(31:49):
with uh about Mel Robbins book,um, the let them theory, and uh,
we've also explored Dr Glover'swork quite a bit.
We've also explored Dr Glover'swork quite a bit, and one of
the things that I wanted tobring up was do you see any big
differences between and you canthrow in the Gottmans, really
(32:09):
anybody else we've talked abouton the show between Terabin's
method and any of the othervisionaries and luminaries that
we've discussed before?
Do you see anything much, muchdifferent?
Dan (32:22):
I don't see the end result being any different.
Charles (32:25):
Yeah, for me it's all about tone.
Dan (32:26):
He's got a different tone than the other ones have, but I
don't think he's reallysuggested anything that far I
think he really honors thatbehavioral economics approach to
things and I appreciate thatbecause that really answers the
why.
And I have a lot of times it'slike, well, why, I'm curious,
why do we behave this way, orwhy do humans interact this way,
or why do we feel this way?
(32:47):
And he is great way of kind ofcutting right through all of the
, the fluff and the the.
You know the shoulds that weget from society and from from
our world around us about.
You know people should beacting this way or should be
acting that way, even if they doalign with behavioral economics
.
What he's talking about.
It's not clear.
Those other people that we'vebeen listening to, it's not
(33:09):
clear exactly why they have likekind of touched it or danced
around it.
I feel he kind of gets to theroot of it it.
Charles (33:22):
I feel he kind of gets to the root of it.
Yeah, I would.
I would say that too, and andagain is.
And his, his delivery method isone that I think, especially
you know, listening to his audiobook, he really does get into
the weeds with the behavioraleconomics to the point where I
think it could, unless you'rereally motivated to understand
you, you know, and sort of get afresh perspective on
relationships.
Yeah, it can.
(33:42):
It can grate on you a littlebit, it can.
It's like, okay, I feel likeI'm listening to a 13 hour long
college lecture and I enjoyed it.
I thought it was great.
I like listening to his bookand I liked his style and I
think he's.
He was good at reading it andgood at performing the, the um,
the reading.
But, uh, I could definitely seesomebody thinking this isn't
(34:06):
but, but you're right, he didcut.
He cut the bs to the pointwhere he said stuff that would
be um, upsetting to some peopleand because it's just not stuff
we're used to hearing in blackand white, um, one of the points
he makes is that when it comesto relationships, we will both
(34:32):
men and women, will bothessentially settle for the best
partner they think they'recapable of getting, and so
what's nice is when you findyourself in a situation where
you're with a woman who youthink is the best girl you could
ever get, and she thinks you'rethe best guy you could ever get
, and you live happily everafter and he said that's like a
(34:52):
happy accident.
Dan (34:53):
That's not right.
That's not usually the case.
Charles (34:56):
You can have a relationship but not be in love
yeah, that was, yeah, the wholehis attitude about love and
being in love and relationships.
As far as romantic love goesand he delves into that quite
deeply in his, in his book um,yeah, it's, there were some
(35:16):
bitter pills to swallow.
Dan (35:18):
So, with looking at things that way, Did we get into on the
last podcast about his his takeon compromise I don't remember
if that was us talking again orif that was on the podcast where
he basically doesn't believe incompromise, and on the Diary of
the CEO podcast you knowStephen was asking him is just
like, well, doesn't everybodyhave to compromise when you get
(35:38):
into relationship?
Isn't that part of it?
And he said just be careful ofusing that term, because that
implies that you are sacrificingsomething that you want and
almost with this expectationthat the other person is going
to sacrifice something that theywant, and that brings in like a
dangerous situation.
And what was enlightening forme was the way he reframed that
(36:01):
and said instead of having thosecompromises, rethink your
selection criteria before you gointo a relationship.
So have fewer ands, right?
So I want, right, I wantsomebody who are deal break,
deal breakers, right, so themore ands you have, the more
expensive it is in terms of whator how difficult it's going to
(36:23):
be to live in and have a happyrelationship if you've got all
of these and wants to talk aboutquantum mechanics and you know,
is loves, loves to go horsebackriding and all these other
things and instead, you know,figure out what you want out of
(36:48):
a romantic partner and all thoseother ends, the, you know, the
ability to be a good bowlingpartner and and and you know all
these other things.
Find that from from otherplaces and other people, yeah,
and, and so I think I think thatwas a great.
That was a great way ofthinking about going into
relationships where you're notthen requiring a compromise.
And what you said was being alsobe a little selfish and be loud
(37:11):
about being selfish, so meaning, don't be afraid to communicate
what you want, and so that wayyou find somebody who then hears
that communication, hears thethings that you need and that
you want, and is okay with them,so that it is not down the road
a compromise for them, wherethey're like, oh, oh, I didn't
realize you, you know you wantedthis or you needed things this
(37:33):
way, or you wanted to behave inthat way, because you kind of
hit it at the beginning.
You're trying to put your bestfoot, you didn't want to be too
demanding, and things like that.
He's like no, you know, youreally should be a little bit
selfish and vocalize that, andthat's really about being your
true self.
Charles (37:50):
Yeah, one of the things he gets into in the book which
I'll happily provide a littlebit of a preview on because it's
very relevant to what we'retalking about right now is he's
mostly against the idea ofdating, where he says that what
most of us do when we are datingsomeone is we try to create the
(38:13):
most novel and exciting versionof our life and then grab them
by the hand and walk themthrough that.
Or it's like, um, like otherexperts in the field that you
and I agree with.
You know, the first time youmeet somebody new it's it's
either let's grab a quick drinkor let's grab coffee and have a
conversation, try to figure outwhat each of us is actually
(38:34):
about.
Um, but he says, as soon as is,as soon as possible, your time
that you spend dating thisperson should be more about
bringing them into kind of theroutine of your life and not
going straight to let's go outand, you know, play mini golf.
(38:58):
He's like if you're, if you'rean avid mini golfer, then by all
means bring her along, but ifyou're not and you're just going
out of your way to do thingsthat you think she'll find fun
and, you know, going on aweekend trip to a spa that
you've never been to before andnever would go to on your own,
and you're just doing it tobring her along.
It's like, yeah, you're.
You're just prolonging thisprocess of showing somebody else
(39:19):
the most exciting version ofyour life that doesn't actually
exist and getting them used tothat.
And then by the time real lifekicks in and your real schedule
kicks in and your real habitsand interests kick in, it's like
who is this person?
This isn't who I got to knowover the last.
Dan (39:35):
That's a great way of thinking about it, absolutely,
because, yeah, if you're notseeing the day-to-day right at
the very beginning, you don'teven have anything to contrast
it with.
It's kind of like this wholething with we're talking about
with the guys who don't knowwhat it's like to have sex with
a woman because they've neverhad it before, right it's.
It's like all right, well,you're not seeing what reality
is at that point.
Right, and yeah, it's okay todo those things, but this should
(39:58):
be an occasional vacation orwhatever.
But yeah, the root of thatrelationship really should be
founded on what your day-to-dayroutine looks like.
Right, and so that's that's.
But then how do you, how do youconvey that?
How do you pull that somethinglike that off in reality?
Charles (40:21):
you basically have to keep your, your dates as
informal and as close to thekinds of things that you enjoy
and you have do solo.
So that is, you know, going outfor coffee, going out for fun
but inexpensive meals, um, goingfor walks, I mean, in my case,
going for walks.
I mean, in my case, going forwalks, basically building enough
rapport up that she feels safeenough with you.
(40:44):
That spending some time at herhouse or spending some time at
your house and just cookingdinner together and watching a
movie or playing a board game, Imean, yeah, you don't invite
somebody to do that for thefirst date because any sane
woman is going to be like no,I'm not coming to your house,
you know to Uno and chill.
Yeah, exactly Not, not for afirst date.
I mean, there's nothing wrongwith that.
(41:06):
If somebody is open to it andyou're looking to keep things
casual, I get it.
But, um, I think, I think mostwomen would be reasonably um,
yeah, you just scared off orturned off to.
Yeah.
Um, yeah, you scared off orturned off to.
Yeah, you needed some rapport.
Absolutely yeah, you build somerapport, you show yourself as a
sane, safe person.
But then, yeah, as soon as youcan get it to the point of, yeah
, let's, let's hang out and uh,so no big fancy dinners?
(41:30):
no, you know, no weekend cruisesto places okay, not, certainly
not at the beginning, not untilnot until you're in an
established relationship withsomebody that you know you want
to be in a relationship with.
And I'm revisiting a part twoof Dr Glover's book that you and
I are going to cover at somepoint.
Uh, dating essentials for menand um, and his big thing that
(41:51):
he emphasizes is delay sex aslong as you can as well, so that
you can really keep your headon on the target of.
I need to figure out what thisgal's about whether we're
compatible and as soon as I seesome big signs that we're not, I
need to cut this off so thatI'm not wasting her time and
she's not wasting mine and I canmove on to spending my time
(42:14):
with somebody else.
And that gets harder after youstarted having sex with somebody
, a hundred percent.
So yeah, um and I think I thinkTerabain would probably agree
with that as well Um, that it'sit's better to be in a position
where you can hire slow and firefast, and as much as men would
probably have the tendency todismiss that and say no, just
(42:35):
cause I started having sex witha girl doesn't mean it's not
going to be harder for me to uhbreak up.
It's like well I.
I get the motivation why youmight feel the need to say that,
but because you want to havesex.
Dan (42:48):
That's why that's what you say.
Charles (42:49):
It's the only reason why you're saying it right but
hey, you and I are are differentguys in a lot of different ways
, but we both kind of agree withthat.
Like if you're in a newrelationship and you start
having sex with somebody, it isgoing to be more difficult for
you when has it ever not beenmore difficult?
Dan (43:05):
right, I mean that's yeah, it's.
Charles (43:07):
It's harder to pull the plug, and that's why but
everybody's the exception right,it's nothing of what everybody
thinks of the exception, right,and that's that's why, you know,
with some of the um breakup andreconciliation advice that you
and I have talked about, youknow where a guy is like oh, my
girlfriend broke up with me, I'dlove to get back together with
her.
Some of the advice out there is, you know, basically okay, well
(43:27):
, if she reaches out to you, ifshe makes contact, get her back,
get her back to your place fordinner and, you know, have fun
and hook up with her.
Dan (43:56):
And my counter advice is no , do not chance that both of you
are going to think that areconciled relationship is the
best idea, even though it mightnot be and the other part of
that is you don't know how thisperson has changed or hasn't
changed, and you also don't knowhow that's going to mix in with
(44:17):
the changes that you've hadsince you've been in that
relationship, right and?
And you start throwing, likeyou said, sex in there.
Now the the waters are muddiedand it's it's going to be very
difficult to distinguish becauseyou're going to go back to old
routines as well.
So you're going to be drawnback to old behaviors, not from
from having that closeness, fromhaving that intimacy yeah, the
more.
Charles (44:37):
The more that feels like old times, the more you're
going to act like old times, andthe way you acted in the old
times is what led you to gettingbroken up with in the first
place yeah so I would say andand yeah, it's the idea that you
know two people are in arelationship and they split up
and go their separate ways.
the odds that while they've gonetheir separate ways, they've
(44:58):
grown and healed in ways thatare going to bring them back
together it's pretty slim.
Usually the opposite happens,you know.
Either you know they don't growat all, either one of the two
parties you know just devolvesas a result of the breakup and,
you know, relies on some oftheir maladaptive coping skills
(45:19):
to get through the pain of thebreakup, or, if they do both
experience some kind of a glowup in a grow up, it's more
likely than not that that'sgoing to be taking them further,
apart from the people thatfound each other in the first
place and not back together,it's not impossible right, it's,
it's, yeah, it's a, it's arealization that you should have
(45:41):
in the back of your head, butwe'll, we can revisit uh
breakups and makeups down theroad in a little bit more detail
.
One of the frustrations I seemen sharing online is the idea
of they kind of feel entitled tohaving good romantic
relationships because they'regood guys or because they're
(46:01):
nice guys or because they'rekind men.
And what is clear from DrTerriban's work and also just
you know, one of the things Ialways recommend is, guys, you
should have women who are yourfriends and women who are your
friends that you actually you'renot trying to make them your
girlfriend, they're just yourfriends and you're able to be
(46:23):
honest and nonjudgmental witheach other and you can ask them
their opinions on what holes youmight have in your game.
And again, you have tocultivate a relationship with a
woman where she feels safeenough to be honest with you,
that you're not going to freakout, blow up, start crying or
something like that, Because if,if she's got a taste that you
(46:44):
might do any of those things,you're not going to get a
straight answer from her.
Dan (46:46):
And I don't blame her.
Charles (46:47):
She doesn't want to put up with that.
None of us do so, um, but youshould be able to say to your
girlfriends, okay, what I'm notgetting the results that I would
like out of my romanticrelationships.
If, if I gave you a pass totell you know, offer any
criticism that comes to mind,and I'm, I'm not going to hold
(47:08):
it against you, I'm not going tofreak out.
I really am looking to improvemyself.
What would you say I needed tofocus on?
Definitely do that and keep inmind that being a nice guy,
being a kind guy, kind guy, um,not being a dangerous guy all
those things are the bareminimum.
So for healthy women, none ofthose are going to set you apart
from their other options.
That is going to be theabsolute least that they're
(47:31):
looking for.
Like, oh, you're a good guy, ohyou're you're not going to make
a, uh, unwanted physical passat me during a date.
Like, yeah, no crap.
That that is the bare minimumfor how a civilized, right,
attractive man with lots ofoptions behaves.
Only a desperate guy who is,you know, either ethically or
(47:53):
mentally unbalanced is going tothink that, oh well, you know, I
didn't, I didn't try to kissher when she clearly didn't want
to kiss me.
So that makes me a good person?
No, that just again.
For healthy women, that is thebare minimum, yep.
And so if that's the kind ofgirl you're looking for, which
we all should be, you, youshouldn't be giving yourself
(48:13):
credit for just being normal andexpecting women to lay down and
spread their legs for you justbecause you're not a terrible
person.
All right, so we'll leave itthere and, uh, we'll see what we
come up with for the nextepisode.
Thanks, dan.
Bye-bye.
That wraps up this episode ofthe mindfully masculine podcast.
We hope our conversation aboutdr orion taraban's ideas gave
(48:35):
you something to think about,whether it's the way you view
relationships, masculinity orjust the role you play in your
own life.
We'll be back with anotherepisode on Monday and then
return to our regular releaseschedule.
For all of our full episodes,audio and video, visit
mindfullymasculinecom.
Thanks for listening and we'llsee you next time.
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
Cardiac Cowboys
The heart was always off-limits to surgeons. Cutting into it spelled instant death for the patient. That is, until a ragtag group of doctors scattered across the Midwest and Texas decided to throw out the rule book. Working in makeshift laboratories and home garages, using medical devices made from scavenged machine parts and beer tubes, these men and women invented the field of open heart surgery. Odds are, someone you know is alive because of them. So why has history left them behind? Presented by Chris Pine, CARDIAC COWBOYS tells the gripping true story behind the birth of heart surgery, and the young, Greatest Generation doctors who made it happen. For years, they competed and feuded, racing to be the first, the best, and the most prolific. Some appeared on the cover of Time Magazine, operated on kings and advised presidents. Others ended up disgraced, penniless, and convicted of felonies. Together, they ignited a revolution in medicine, and changed the world.