September 29, 2025 • 56 mins
Love, sex, survival — Esther Perel has spent decades showing how our relationships shape everything about the quality of our lives. In this episode of Mindfully Masculine, Charles and Dan unpack her powerful conversation with Steven Bartlett on The Diary of a CEO.
We explore the big themes from Esther’s interview:
- Why the quality of your relationships determines the quality of your life
- How childhood experiences shape adult patterns (and how to change them)
- The “figure-eight” loop couples get stuck in — pursuer vs. distancer
- Why love is a verb, not a feeling, and what it takes to keep desire alive
- How presence, novelty, and vulnerability keep relationships from going stale
This is a conversation for men who want to stop repeating old patterns, show up more fully for their partners, and understand what it really takes to make relationships last.
Watch the full Diary of a CEO interview with Steven Bartlett and Esther Perel here: https://youtu.be/nTWXfo7narw?si=ycEbp6RpgqQLJ9JY
For all of our full episodes, audio and video, visit mindfullymasculine.com.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Charles (00:00):
Let's talk about ambiguous loss.
Um this is an interesting termthat she uses for when someone
is physically present butemotionally absent.
And she she mentioned somethingin this section that I I'm
finally gonna take some actionon something that I've been
really bad at for very, verylong.
Which is which is focusing toomuch on my phone.
(00:23):
Okay.
And so the the reason that forsocial engagements, dates,
things like that, I have alwaysfelt like I had a good excuse
was oh, well, what if we'retalking about something and you
know the conversation getsreally interesting and I want to
look up a fact or confirm thatsomething I'm saying is true,
(00:43):
blah, blah, blah.
Dan (00:44):
Sure.
Because you feel like you'reyou'd be able to contribute more
to the conversation, right?
You're investing in the momentindirectly, right?
Yeah, I can see that, sure.
Charles (00:54):
But I think that it's still a net negative on my
friendships and on my romanticrelationships.
I am going to actively startleaving my phone places when
when I know you know you and Iare going out for dinner or I'm
I'm taking my partner on a dateor whatever.
I don't need the phone.
(01:14):
And I don't need it sittingthere, whether it's face up,
face down in my pocket.
It's just temptos.
It's too temptos.
Dan (01:20):
I get it for sure.
Charles (01:22):
Welcome to the Mindfully Masculine Podcast.
This is Charles.
All right, today Dan and I arereviewing Stephen Bartlett's The
Diary of a CEO conversationthat he had with Esther Perell,
one of the world's mostrespected therapists and authors
on relationships and sexuality.
In their discussion, Perellexplores why the quality of our
lives is defined by the qualityof our relationships, how
(01:45):
childhood experiences shape ourpatterns as adults, and the
figure eight loop many couplesfall into.
She explains a tension betweensecurity and freedom, how
presence versus distractionbuilds or erodes intimacy, why
novelty matters in keepingdesire alive, and how issues
like sexlessness, porn, and eveninfidelity connect back to
(02:07):
deeper needs for connection andaliveness.
We'll share our reactions asmen, connect her insights to our
own lives, and talk about whatto do if you never saw healthy
relationships modeled growingup.
For all of our full episodes,audio and video, visit
mindfullymasculine.com.
Thanks for listening and enjoy.
Oh, good afternoon, Dan.
(02:31):
We don't say that very often,do we?
Uh we do not.
No, we usually record in themorning, but uh we've had some
technical issues with thecomputer that we use to record
your side of the conversation,your audio, your video.
And so we've had to come upwith a workaround, and hopefully
we've landed on one that willbe a workaround and will not
(02:52):
crap the bed on us in the middleof the recording.
Fortunately, our failedattempts only got like two and a
half minutes in before werealized there was a problem.
Dan (03:00):
Those were quality two and a half minutes.
They were.
Charles (03:02):
Let's see.
What do we talk about?
We talked about books, westarted to introduce our topic
for this week.
I cleared my throat a fewtimes.
And we've not really come upwith anything conclusive.
We have not been able to figureit out.
Um but uh yeah, we're we'repretty close right now.
(03:26):
I think uh stand out we we didestablish that our chairs are
identical.
So any difference with the waythat we are framed is not about
our chairs.
So um I think it's myslouchiness.
Maybe.
I mean, I I consider I think ofmyself as having poor sitting
posture, but um I don't thinkso.
Usually not in it's like thethe simpler the chair, the
(03:50):
better I sit in it.
Like if it's like a car seat ora big cushy office chair, then
I'll kind of get kind of sloppywith my posture.
But these are just we just uselike very basic folding chairs
here, and so um I I do kind ofdefault to sitting up straight.
Anyway, um we are going toreview, discuss, analyze another
(04:13):
great episode of SteveBartlett's Diary of a CEO uh
podcast, I guess, video podcast.
Uh last week's was uh hisinterview of Orion Terraban, the
um psychologist and behavioraleconomic economist.
Behavioral economist that uhtalks about relationships
(04:35):
through the lens of of economicsand and figuring figuring out
what motivates people and howthey make the decisions that
they make, which I thought wasvery interesting.
So decided to go back to that.
Well, um, why come up with newstuff when we can just talk
about somebody else's stuff?
Yeah.
Steve does a great job ofputting together an interview
and uh and producing a podcast.
(04:57):
He was at um one of the podcastmovements that I went to that
you didn't go to.
He was a keynote speaker.
Oh, nice.
And he he had a lot to sayabout he is obsessive with the
way they produce that show, likemetrics and everything.
Like he he will like keeprecords on humidity and
(05:18):
temperature and all that to seehow people are the most
comfortable, the most talkative,how they produce the episodes
that get the most views.
Like he tries to factor ineverything he possibly can that
goes into what makes a goodepisode good as far as ratings
and views, and then you know,duplicates that does a lot of A
B testing where he'll releaselike different cuts of the show
(05:41):
and see which ones performbetter.
And I mean it's it's he's areal he's a real business.
Dan (05:45):
I mean, yeah, I mean it's it's a real polished interview
where it's I mean, I feel likeit's you know next level of what
the old late night guys weredoing, you know, when they would
do interviews.
I mean, I guess they still dothose interviews when they have
a guest on and and the guestdoes most of the talking.
Charles (06:00):
Yeah.
Yeah.
No, I could I compare it moreto like Rogan's long form
interviews, but it's so muchbetter because I mean Rogan will
go down these rabbit holeswhere he's just saying bullshit
that's just not true, and thenyou know, his producer will clue
him in 15 or 20 minutes downthe road.
Steve Bartlett doesn't ever doanything like that because I
think if he caught himselfmaking a mistake like that, he
(06:21):
wouldn't let it get to air.
Right.
Yeah.
Dan (06:23):
You know, I mean, if he's concerned about the humidity.
Charles (06:26):
Right, exactly.
Come on.
Yes, and the go 20 minutes downon a bullshit story that proves
to be, you know, based on falseinformation is not something
he's gonna do.
And so for that reason, I'dlike to, I think we should stick
with him for a while and andlook at some of his best
interviews and see, you know,what people he's talked to in
the mental health space, therelationship space, um, and for
(06:49):
recreational purposes, otherspaces as well.
I know he did uh an interviewwith Mike Israkel, one of uh one
of the fitness influencers we Iwas gonna say we both like.
I think you like him.
I I get good information out ofhim, but he's one of these
people that uh thinks he'sfunnier than he is, and that's
the worst.
Okay, so we're gonna talk aboutEsther Perel and her interview
(07:11):
um with Stephen Bartlett andwhat the topics that they got
into that I found, um, she'sdone a couple with him, and I
went back to the oldest one.
I figured we should start withthat one because we might want
to do her newer one as well.
But uh this was really a goodprimer to her work in general, I
would say.
She they kind of covered alittle bit of everything that
she focuses her book writing andher own um media appearances.
(07:35):
And I think I've seen her maybenot a TED talk, but something
like that online where she iskind of talking about the same
sorts of things.
Um she leads off by sayingthat, you know, the quality of
all of our lives is going to bebased on the quality of our
relationships.
And if yeah, that reallyresonates because it doesn't
(07:58):
matter how great of a job youhave, how much money you have in
the bank, or how how fancy thehouse that you spend your day
sitting alone in really is.
None of those really define howgood of a life you have.
Aaron Powell Yeah.
Dan (08:09):
And I think that recently they've also linked the quality
of your relationships to yourlifespan as well.
And that was like the numberone predictor of a long life was
the quality of yourrelationships, actually, above
all other health markers,believe it or not.
Charles (08:24):
It's crazy.
Yeah, I believe that.
I know married men tend to livelonger than single men.
I think we had a conversationabout that.
Yeah, there there can be someinteresting causation
correlation discussions aboutthat, like whether you know, the
the person who is going to sayno to marriage for their whole
life is more likely to engage inother risky, unhealthy
behaviors and things.
It's yeah, it's always tough toknow.
(08:45):
Apparently, being being apublisher or an editor whose job
it is to write headlines, younever have to really factor in
the correlation versus causationthing.
You just focus on the theheadlines.
The soundbite.
Yeah, the soundbite, theheadline that's gonna get the
clicks in the eyeballs.
Yeah.
But for so many of thosethings, I I often wonder, okay,
well, you know, what what havewe done to isolate the the thing
(09:08):
we're reporting on is reallythe thing that led to the uh to
the result that we're reportingon?
And the answer is usually notthat right.
Dan (09:14):
Because there's no consequences a lot of times for
for reporters who basically usethe the correlation versus get
it wrong.
Right, you know.
So anyway, Esther Perel here,she's gonna do it.
She's known for mating incaptivity and which we both have
listened to or read, yeah.
Right, which which that book isreally the the basis of that is
improving the relationshipsthat the long-term
(09:36):
relationships, romanticrelationships that we have, and
by bringing a little bit more ofthat spice and whether it's in
into the bedroom or just thatthat novelty that we all
experience at the beginning,which you know we call
limerence, right?
At the beginning of therelationship, how do you keep
that going?
And you know, she kind of makesthe point of and and and Tony
(09:56):
Robbins made this point too withhis teaching about
relationships is if you treatedthe end of your relationship
like you did the beginning ofevery relationship, it wouldn't
end because uh we just takethings for granted.
We a lot of times, you know, wewe devote a lot of our energy
towards our our work life duringthe day, and then we don't have
a lot of it to bring to therelationship at the end of the
(10:17):
day when we finally see ourpartner.
So there's a lot of things thatyou know she goes into and and
she goes into with Steven onthis, but uh that's really a lot
of um a lot of that mating incaptivity was was also kind of
uh there's not a quick solution.
She even mentions there'sreally no answers that come out
of that, other than sometimesyou need to uh accept both types
(10:39):
of a dynamic where you're notgoing to have the exact same
relationship you had at thebeginning, where it's not gonna
be all you know novelty andsuper fun and everything else
like that.
It's it's still going to besome humdrum times, some some
daily life times.
And I think even um uh TerraBand talked about that too,
(11:00):
where when we start datingpeople, we really shouldn't be
doing this big performative typeof experiences or impression.
Charles (11:09):
It really should be because the fall off the cliff
will be all that much harder.
Dan (11:13):
It really should be, hey, this is this is how day-to-day
goes with us, right?
So I think there's you knowsome parallels here between
those two.
Charles (11:20):
Yeah, one of the things I was I was thinking, there's a
few things that came to mindwhen I was listening to this
episode, and uh one of them wasI don't know if it would be
considered laziness or cultureor whatever, but I have seen in
myself and in my friends it'slike when you get into a new
(11:40):
relationship with someone andyou make them your primary and
sometimes exclusive source ofsocial connection in the world,
then you know, it's kind ofcliche to joke about oh, my
wife's my best friend, myhusband's my best friend, my
girlfriend's my best.
It's like the more time youspend around them exclusively
(12:04):
doing everything with them, themore they become your friend.
And for the most part, healthyadults, we're not trying to fuck
our friends.
Dan (12:16):
Yeah.
Charles (12:16):
And we're not thinking about our friends.
And so, you know, you alsosprinkle in some other unhealthy
dynamics where, you know,you're making that partner your
mom or your dad, depending ongender, too.
And it's like, so, you know, wewe start things off with
somebody hot and heavy, and thenthe more time we spend around
them, if we are lazy, if wedon't think about it, if we just
(12:39):
kind of cruise into the nextphase of the relationship,
you're putting all these extraroles on them that you that
neither of you associate withsexual intimacy.
Dan (12:50):
Yeah, yeah.
And they even, you know, theytalk about this in the in the
video where I think she wassaying it was related to we
don't have that sense ofcommunity and larger families
anymore.
It's we're really kind ofputting all those roles on that
one person that we're partneredwith at that point.
That's a lot of responsibility,and like you said, it's going
(13:11):
to mold that into more of a abuddy-buddy friendship type of
just operating, maybe a roommatetype of situation.
But what I thought wasinteresting here is when she
said that a lot of times whenshe'd see couples, more often
than not, when you fix therelationship, it doesn't fix the
(13:31):
sex.
Charles (13:32):
I thought that was interesting too.
Dan (13:33):
But if you can fix the sex, that's got a lot more potential
to fix the actual relationship.
Charles (13:39):
Yeah, that is usually not the way that we think about
it.
We we think about, you know, Ihave to communicate better.
Communicate better, work on theconnection.
And yeah, what she yeah, theway she said it was what you do
in the kitchen is not gonnaaffect what you do in the
bedroom, but what you do in thebedroom changes the people who
walk into the kitchen.
Yo, well said.
Yeah, that's that's the way Iheard that part of it.
(14:01):
I re-listened to that thismorning.
Yeah, I'm gonna drive overhere.
And uh it's like, yeah, that isthat is really interesting.
I mean, if you are if you'remaking an effort to have the fun
and exciting sex with yourpartner that you had at the
beginning of the relationship,then uh Yeah, it will change.
I mean, I I think of it.
Do you remember the um You'veseen Back to the Future, right?
(14:25):
Of course.
You consider that one of theseminal 1980s movies?
Absolutely.
I do I it's hard for me tothink.
I mean, that Raiders, Empire,and maybe Batman.
All Batman came out in '89, soit's kind of right on the tail
end.
I would say Back of the Futurefor me is the ultimate 80s movie
because it had, you know, allthe 80s pop culture stuff, but
it also had a little bit of asci-fi angle.
(14:47):
And anyway, the way that Georgeand Lorraine, the two McFly
parents, relate to each other inthe beginning of the movie
versus the end of the movie.
Yeah.
Um, yeah, when when Marty comesback to 1985, yeah, spoiler
alert for anybody who hasn'tseen it in the last 40 years,
you waited too long.
Um, when Marty comes back tothe future after the past has
(15:11):
been changed because his dadstood up to Biff.
Um you know, he sees hisparents walk in from playing
golf or tennis or something, andhe's like, Mom, you look so
thin.
And because she's in muchbetter shape.
And um she's like, Oh, thanks,Marty.
And then as George passesbehind her, he smacks her on the
ass, which is nothing at allwhat they look like in the
(15:33):
beginning of the movie.
And it's like, yeah, if if youdon't work at that kind of a
relationship with your partner,then yeah, I think, and I've
fallen into that roommate modeland and friend model.
And the other, the othercomponent of it, and she
(15:53):
mentions this in the episode, isso many of us don't have that
long-term healthy, exciting,romantic romantic relationship
modeled for us by our parents.
I I certainly didn't.
I was thinking about that thismorning too on the driveover,
where, you know, my my parents,my father worked hard to my
(16:16):
grandfather who raised me, heworked hard to make enough money
for us to pay our bills.
And my grandmother worked hardto keep up the house and make
sure everybody was fed and hadclothes and all that stuff.
Um, I never saw them work onthe relationship with each other
at all in the slightest.
Like never, never did I seethem say no to something for me
(16:38):
as a kid or for, you know, theupkeep of the house or the job
situation.
Never, never did they say, uh,I can't do that because I
promised my husband or wife Iwas going to do this.
You know, that never ever hadthe their romantic relationship,
their relationship, calling itromantic relationship seems like
a lie, yeah, was never apriority.
(17:02):
And so, you know, as as itbeing the that was a primary
romantic relationship that I sawas a kid.
It's like, okay, so now what doI do?
I just read a bunch of books,and you know, as we've as I've
learned from Terraban and othersources, it's like the insight
that you gain from reading abook about what a relationship's
supposed to be is no substitutefor watching it modeled in real
(17:26):
time.
It just isn't.
Dan (17:27):
Like, and then undoing the model that's been seeded into
our minds as children, and mostof the time, it's not, you know,
I mean, I came from a divorcedparent, so I didn't see my mom
had no relationships after thedivorce, and my dad's were
fairly short term, except forthis for uh you know a more
recent one.
Charles (17:45):
Right.
And do you remember how oldwere you when he met her?
Do you remember 20s, 30?
Dan (17:50):
I was in my it must have been in my 30s.
20s, maybe late 20s, I think.
Charles (17:56):
You were pretty much all locked in as far as how you
viewed relationships by thatpoint.
Dan (17:59):
Right, right.
And and I mean, even and andthere I saw a little bit at this
when it was early on, I saw,you know, some romantic
interactions between the two ofthem, but then I that quickly
turned into a you know atypical, you know, kind of just
I'm doing this and you're doingthat, and we're kind of friends
and we do things together.
And, you know, I so yeah, Ididn't have I really didn't have
(18:22):
a a good model either.
I mean, I had parents offriends who are at least still
married, but they weren't like mmushy or romantic in front of
in front of kids at all, if theywere at all, you know.
Charles (18:36):
And and there I mean there certainly is a way.
Uh I don't see it often, butthere there is a way to be
romantic in fr in a way that issuitable for all audiences.
Absolutely.
And almost nobody does it.
I mean, at least as far as I asfar as I can tell.
Yeah.
And yeah, so I I've had to uhthis is another one of those
issues where recently, um Imean, if I was a 13-year-old
(19:02):
girl with a crystal collection,or you, I would say the universe
is trying to teach mesomething.
Dan (19:06):
Uh-huh.
Charles (19:07):
But uh yeah, the whole idea of the really the the only
way to fix some of thesepatterns that we've learned as
children is to to go throughsort of a disciplined
reparenting um strategy whereyou basically are willing to
open up the hood and get down tothat inner child and say, okay,
(19:30):
it's time for me to, using theguidance of some experts, I've
got to complete some exercisesthat will sort of supplant the
bad information that I got as akid by default with some
deliberate steps of replacing itwith good information.
And so that's that's somethingthat I'm going to be doing now
that I find myself um betweenrelationships, out of
(19:55):
relationships, single again.
Um it's it's time to dedicatesome some time to to sort of
cleaning up some of that messthat is still hanging around.
Yeah.
I'm a 47-year-old man, it'stime to it's time to to get some
of that dealt with in a waythat is going to be permanent
because yeah, I you know, somesome relationships end big and
(20:16):
bad, some end small and fairlygood, but it's still, you know,
I'm not I'm not seeing theresults that I I want to see.
And I think that's becausethere's still some junk in there
that uh neither one of myparents are going to volunteer
to uh fix all of it for me.
Um so I gotta do it myself.
Dan (20:36):
Yeah.
What did you think about herfigure eight dynamic?
Charles (20:39):
Yeah, I did some more looking into that where we're
basically, you know, you've gotthe two people that are stuck in
this never-ending pattern oftrying to make a bid for
connection, and then the otherperson sees that as something
not a bid for romanticconnection and re and responds
to it in a way that isunhelpful.
Um the the one she mentioned isis the case where the man kind
(21:04):
of interprets it as you'retrying to control me, you're
trying to interrupt me, you'retrying to take over my schedule.
And the woman is like, no, I'mjust trying to find a way to
connect with you.
Find a way to connect with youso I don't feel so I don't feel
lonely.
Right.
Dan (21:17):
I don't feel like you're here for me.
Charles (21:19):
Right, exactly.
Dan (21:19):
And and you know, and in that dynamic, he the more she
what she calls knocks,basically, which I guess she was
using Steven's relationship invideo as the example.
Charles (21:29):
Yeah, a lot of credit to him for being as open and
honest as he was.
Dan (21:32):
Where, you know, in he his example that he gave was he'd
come home from work and he'dlook at his, he'd be working on
his laptop for a little while.
And every time he was juststarting to get to work, his
partner would ask him likequestions that really didn't
matter, like, hey, you know, doyou want something to drink?
And he's obviously gotsomething to drink right there.
Or or what do you think ofthis?
And that was just a completely,you know, random thing that she
(21:56):
was she was trying to, and shejust kind of kept interrupting
him.
And the problem was he was notgiving her full attention when
she was asking the questions.
He was kind of like, look offhis phone for a second, uh-huh,
uh-huh, and go back to work.
And so what Esther Perell wastalking about was she kept
knocking on his door saying,Hey, let's connect, let's
connect, let's connect.
And he was recoiling andbasically with that whole,
(22:18):
you're trying to interrupt me.
And I like the way she said isthat we create the other person
and how they react to us inthat, those patterns.
So basically, the more herecoiled and didn't give her any
type of focused attention, themore she kept knocking on the
door, and that more thatbothered him.
(22:39):
And I like how she said, Wereally got to fix yourself.
You need to change something inyou if you want to change
something in somebody else.
So the solution in that casewas stop what you're doing, give
her your undivided attentionfor a couple of minutes, and
then you know, let her know,hey, I just need a couple more
minutes to finish on, you know,what I'm doing here for work,
and that relaxes her nervoussystem.
(23:00):
So then she's less likely tocontinue to interrupt and and
constantly ask for attention.
So I mean so part of it doescome back to communication, I
think, in that regard.
But I you know, it was, youknow, it really kind of hit home
with me.
It's just like, oh wow, inorder to interrupt somebody
else's pattern, you need tofirst interrupt your own and and
(23:22):
do something that's going to bea little bit uncomfortable.
Charles (23:24):
Yeah, and that's and that's the thing.
It's uh, you know, depending onhow you were raised and what
specific uh issues you came outof childhood with, um it's like
the the more chaotic your lifewas, the more you're going to
prize and value familiarityabove everything else, even when
that familiarity is anunhealthy pattern that you
(23:46):
developed with your partner thatcould and probably will lead to
the destruction of therelationship.
It's still like, yeah, but thisis what I this is what I
understand, this is what Iexpect.
So I'm more comfortable withthat than than doing something
different or being the one tostep out and do something
different.
Dan (24:02):
What's interesting, she says, is that that pattern, that
figure eight that keepsreinforcing itself, I should
say, that can be seen not justin that situation, but whether
you're talking about kids, we'retalking about vacations, it
like it's a it's a pattern thatshe sees happen no matter what
the circumstances that the thatcouple is in.
(24:24):
So that's basically what'sdictating the whole dynamic of
the relationship.
And you know, she if she if youremember, she kind of goes down
and says that the the emphasisof one partner, if they are kind
of holding the flame for thatrelationship.
Yeah, that is the somethingthat in at least in Steven's
(24:49):
case, his partner was reallykind of holding the flame for
the relationship.
And that is something that hedoesn't he kind of outsources to
her as part of thatrelationship.
And I think that was the wordthat they even used.
Yeah.
And so what Esther said was ifyou let her do that and you
don't respond, eventually whenshe stops knocking on your door
(25:13):
for attention, you're gonna wakeup one day and go, Oh my god,
what where'd she go?
Like, I I'm alone, I didn'trealize what I had, you know,
until it's kind of gone, right?
Charles (25:23):
Yeah, I think um one of the things she should she
suggested in that section, ifI'm remembering correctly, is
also have a conversation withyour partner where you
acknowledge that that is what'sgoing us.
Yeah where you know you yourecognize it and you appreciate
that they're that they'rewilling to do that.
Because yeah, that with thatpush-pull figure eight dynamic,
(25:46):
it's it's exhausting on the onthe one that keeps chasing,
trying to to get what they need,and the other one is just kind
of backing away, backing offover and over again.
And I think that you know, wewe go into the relationship,
into our relationships with thepersonalities that we have.
And so if you're gonna be achaser and the other person is
(26:10):
gonna be the not chaser, thevery least you can do is have a
talk where you both acknowledgethat that's what's going on and
that you both, you know, atleast can understand, if not
appreciate, the nature of thoseroles and how they're going to
kind of follow you along forthat relationship and and
hopefully figure out a way tomake the relationship work, even
(26:31):
when there is that dynamic.
Yeah.
Dan (26:35):
Yeah.
I think he was saying that hispartner, she does a lot of she's
got uh she does a lot of breathwork.
Charles (26:41):
She's got like a studio or does retreats and stuff.
Dan (26:43):
And and he said that you know, that's not something he
ever thinks about is terms ofrelaxing, taking a break.
He's really focused on work.
And what he said was he doesappreciate that she will
sometimes interrupt him and go,hey, we've got to go to the
beach for two hours.
Charles (26:56):
Yeah.
Dan (26:56):
And you need to take that break.
And he recognizes that it giveshim some balance.
And because he's got thatbalance, he's able to do his
current job better.
So to go back to what you said,which is recognize that you
can't do everything that you'reable to do without that other
person's contribution, naturalcontribution, which is hey, I
(27:18):
want connection.
And through that, you know,they they're able to relax a
little bit, take his mind offthat work.
Right.
You can be then a better CEO ofright of the better partner,
absolutely.
Charles (27:28):
Yeah.
Um let's talk about ambiguousloss.
Um, this is an interesting termthat she uses for when someone
is physically present butemotionally absent.
And she she mentioned somethingin this section that I I'm
finally gonna take some actionon something that I've been
really bad at for very, verylong.
(27:49):
Which is which is focusing toomuch on my phone.
Okay.
And so the the reason that forsocial engagements, dates,
things like that, I have alwaysfelt like I had a good excuse
was oh, well, what if we'retalking about something and you
know the conversation getsreally interesting and I want to
(28:11):
look up a fact or confirm thatsomething I'm saying is true,
blah, blah, blah.
Dan (28:14):
Sure.
Because you feel like you'reyou'd be able to contribute more
to the conversation, right?
You're investing in the momentindirectly, right?
Yeah, I can see that, sure.
Charles (28:24):
But I think that it's still a net negative on my
friendships and on my romanticrelationships.
I am going to actively startleaving my phone places when
when I know you know you and Iare going out for dinner or I'm
I'm taking my partner on a dateor whatever.
I don't need the phone.
(28:44):
And I don't need it sittingthere, whether it's face up,
face down in my pocket.
It's just it's too temptos.
Dan (28:49):
It's too temptos.
I get it for sure.
Brain surgeon, somebody's onthe table dying.
I don't, you know what I'msaying?
Charles (28:56):
So I have to I have to put my phone up to my chest to
get things adjusted.
Dan (28:59):
Stare at it first and then so that is absolutely something
that I I want to work on aswell, but I'm not ready.
I can't, I can't leave in thecar.
Charles (29:09):
So um see, I don't I don't think I've got the you
know, back to the whole gobigger, go home thing.
Like just this, oh I'm justgonna put it in my pocket and
not take it out.
Dan (29:18):
Dude, that's why I don't buy peanut butter.
It's because I don't keep it inthe house.
Because I I've got the same, Ican't, I I can't not exactly no,
that's the right move by takingthe temptation and make it much
more difficult.
Charles (29:28):
Now, see, right now, today's a bad example because
right now I I own one pair of uhconvertible pants for hiking
that uh the unsophisticatedwitness could look at them and
consider them to be cargoshorts.
So if I was wearing cargoshorts or cargo pants to dinner,
which uh God help me if I everdo, yeah, I could put my phone
(29:52):
in a pocket and then zip itclosed.
And that's so that would beenough one more step.
It might be, but again, I I amnot going to sign up for a Life
where I wear cargo pants to anice restaurant.
So it doesn't matter.
It's it's a moot point.
It's staying in the car.
It's crazy.
You know, this this watch is somuch more useful than you know
an old Nokia or Motorola phonewas back in the day.
(30:14):
Where if I'm in the restaurantand I'm waiting for you to show
up and you text me that you'rerunning late, I'll still get it
on my Apple.
I can still respond to itwithout it being a source of
distraction.
Because I mean, real really,yeah, my everything that I need
my phone for, with except formaybe one business app that I
(30:35):
use frequently to remote controlmy customers' computers,
everything but that I can do onmy Apple Watch.
There you go.
So there's no reason.
Dan (30:43):
So now it's gonna be like this, right?
Yeah.
Charles (30:45):
What were you saying, Dan?
I'm sorry.
I lost track of where theconversation was.
Dan (30:54):
Yeah.
Charles (30:54):
Exactly.
So um I'm gonna try that.
The next time you and I hangout, are we going out to dinner
tomorrow night?
Dan (31:00):
Uh we gotta talk about that.
Oh yeah.
Charles (31:03):
Yeah.
Okay.
I don't know.
I think it's I think it's ourlast uh magical dining weekend,
but uh if we can squeeze one ingreat.
If not, no worries.
Yeah.
If we do, I will be leaving myphone in the car.
Okay.
All right.
So God, that means I gotta lockmy car.
I gotta start locking my carnow, too.
Oh my God.
The things we're willing to dofor the appearance of mental
(31:25):
health.
Right.
Dan (31:25):
Move ambiguous loss out of our lives.
Charles (31:27):
Exactly.
Um, all right, we talked alittle bit about the erotic
tension, safety versus freedom,and how um, you know, the the
two things that we're lookingfor in our long-term romantic
relationships are really safetyand excitement.
And it's hard to be both ofthose things.
You can't really be both ofthose things to another person
(31:49):
in a given moment.
You have to choose one or theother.
Dan (31:51):
Right, right.
But we need both.
Charles (31:54):
Right.
You need you need both.
Yeah, and that's that's one ofthe things I've said about, you
know, relationships where umwhere my needs weren't being
met.
The the need to feel umrespected and desired is not
something I require constantly,but I do require it
consistently.
(32:14):
And and I think that if you canfigure out a way to provide I
think every human being does.
Yes.
Yes.
Well, no, some people somepeople require it constantly.
Oh, I see what you're saying.
You know, and and that isthat's a lot of work.
I mean, when if you're withsomebody who requires, you know,
the feel feeling respected anddesired constantly, I think that
puts an undue burden on theyeah, and and I probably I've
(32:37):
probably been in the constantlycamp where before I've engaged
in some of the work that I'vedone over the last few years,
um, I feel like I'm I'm more inthe consistently camp now.
And and now I'm willing to ownthat, that I do need those those
two things consistently.
And if a partner is unable orunwilling to provide it, then
(32:58):
we're we're not not a good matchfor each other.
Um but she does mention how oneof the reasons that men are not
able to manage that balance ofproviding safety and freedom for
their partner is because theyspend all their good energy at
work and then just come home andare ready to basically plant it
(33:19):
on the couch and wait for theirpartner to wait on them.
Dan (33:22):
Yeah.
Charles (33:23):
Which, you know, that's gonna, that's gonna wear on the
partner.
Well, another thing she saidwhen when her and Steven were
getting into uh some of thechallenges he's had with sex in
his relationship with hispartner, she made a point that
I've not really heard voicedthis way, but it makes complete
sense.
We live in a culture, maybe alittle bit less now than when we
(33:45):
were younger, but the generalmessage was men love sex and
women tolerate sex.
I'm sure you remember whetherit's tropes in TV shows or
movies or just hearings, yourfriends chat with each other,
you know, in single sexconversations.
That is definitely somethingthat we have we have made um
(34:07):
sort of a cultural default.
And you know, she she addressesit by saying, Okay, you're
saying that you're complainingthat women don't like sex.
Maybe they just don't like thequality of sex they're having.
Dan (34:20):
Mm-hmm.
Charles (34:21):
And it's like, oof, that is probably true.
I mean you show me a woman thatis consistently having the kind
of exciting sex she enjoys witha partner that is giving her
safety and freedom.
And I would wager that'sprobably a woman who's really
into having sex.
Yeah.
But if you show me a woman thatis just not feeling fulfilled
(34:49):
from the sex, not havingorgasms, not knowing the kinds
of things that it takes for herto have a great time, but she's
with a partner who's not willingor able to do those things,
then yeah, I mean, why would shewant to engage in the practice
of kind of, you know, gettingwarmed up and never never
(35:12):
feeling like she's with somebodywho cares enough to do the job
at at the level that she'swilling to do it for him.
And so I I really think thatthat's changed the way I think
about it.
Now, you know, if I if I dohear a a friend complain or even
joke about, you know, the ideathat women don't like sex, my my
(35:34):
mind from now on is immediatelygonna go to oof, brother, I got
I got some bad news for you.
Dan (35:40):
I mean, that it makes no sense.
I mean, how did humans I mean,you know, how how I mean Do you
really want to answer thatquestion?
Okay, no, I guess we don't getconsensual sex for women is
brand new.
That's that's that's crazy tome.
I that's see, didn't even thinkabout that.
Charles (35:55):
But you're right, absolutely right.
Yeah, there are governments inthe world right now that are
older than female consensualsex.
Yeah.
Dan (36:01):
But I mean, it's got to be built into the human being.
That's what I'm saying.
Really?
And and so yeah, maybe it'sbeen so it's maybe it has been
suppressed for many, many years,right?
In terms of the abilitysocially to for a woman to
express that.
Charles (36:17):
Yeah, I mean, where a woman can say, Oh, if I'm not if
I'm not getting good sex, I'drather have no sex at all.
And like, hey, I get it.
I can if if I was alwaysconstantly having a little bit
of sex, but my favorite parts ofsex, my favorite sex acts were
just completely off the table,then I would kind of adopt a why
(36:38):
bother attitude.
And she talks about that withuh men's kind of their outlook
on porn.
And um, and again, I get tiredof talking about porn, I get
tired of talking aboutmasturbation.
It feels like, you know, everyeverything about male sexuality
kind of does circle back tothose topics, but to her credit,
she does sort of boil it downin a way that uh I've not heard
(37:03):
it laid out before.
Which uh item are we uh on?
Oh, number six.
When a man chooses to interactwith porn instead of interacting
with a real woman, he's kind ofyou know vicariously living
through the male performer.
And what is it that the maleperformer gets in most porn,
(37:24):
which again has been designedand sold, marketed toward men?
Um, he doesn't have to worryabout rejection because women in
porns never say no.
He doesn't have to worry abouthis performance because dudes in
porn never have a hard timeeither starting or finishing.
And in porn, there's never anyambiguity about whether the
(37:47):
woman is having a good timebecause she's screaming her head
off and going crazy, and thingsare being squirted and yelled
and all kinds of things.
It's like, oh, this woman isdefinitely playing the role of
somebody who's really having agreat time and everything's
going perfectly exactly the wayshe'd like it to.
And so that that does make agood case for why some guys are
(38:07):
just like, oh, I'll just sit onthe couch and watch this porn
and pretend I'm the guy in theporn and he's having a perfect
sexual experience, that there'sno um no criticism, no
vulnerability, no rejection,none of that stuff factor in.
So I'll just do that instead.
It's like I personally can't dothat math, but I get why other
(38:29):
people can.
Dan (38:29):
Sure.
I mean, it's a lot less work,it's a lot less vulnerability,
it's a lot less risk that you'regonna get rejected, that you're
gonna feel like you're doingsomething wrong, especially when
you're at your most vulnerable,which is when you're completely
naked, or you know, justwearing socks, you know,
whatever your thing is.
So I absolutely, and that's Imean, the thought, you know, we
talked about that a little bitwith the AI girlfriends and
(38:51):
everything, right?
Is it's it's you're creatingthis perfect world, but that
doesn't do that.
It's so short-lived, you know?
Charles (39:00):
It's like you're and yeah, and compare, I mean, when
you compare it to having goodsex with someone you're in love
with, it is a very poorsubstituted deed.
Dan (39:09):
Yeah, you're not if like like you said before, is when
you change sex, you change thepeople walking into the kitchen.
You're not walking into thekitchen with the the the porn
actors you jerk, you know,jerked off to.
So that's the thing, is it'slike that, you know, those good
feelings then build a sense offulfillment and a basis of an
amazing relationship orpotential for amazing
relationship when you're doinghumdrum thing.
Charles (39:28):
Oh, no, absolutely.
Yeah, when you're when you'reyou know having dinner together,
watching a movie, playing aboard game, and you know that
you're doing that across thetable from somebody that you
consistently have great sexwith, it makes everything else
feel better and more fun.
Dan (39:42):
And I think the other piece of this is physical.
It's like it's a stress relieffor both of you.
So it might loosen things up alittle bit enough to where you
it might get to tap into yourcreative juices a little bit
more and then have some ideas tospice up the relationship and
to do other things or to do thesame things, but in new
(40:05):
different ways, helping to keepsome of that variety that we all
crave alive.
Charles (40:11):
Yes.
And speaking of creative, uh,that reminds me one of the
things we talked about on one ofour other attempts to record is
uh I'm encouraging you and anyof our other listeners, guys
especially, that uh are involvedin any kind of a creative job
or creative side hustle orcreative business that they're
trying to get off the ground.
Uh, read Big Magic by ElizabethGilbert.
(40:35):
Um I'm reminded because her andBrene Brown both recently had
new books come out within likethe last week or two.
And uh I am probably going tore-listen to uh Big Magic.
So um I don't know if it's thekind of book that we we delve
into on the show.
Um I don't I don't know if Iwould I enjoy consuming it.
(40:57):
I don't know if I would enjoytalking about it for that long,
but uh yeah, I I want to uhaccess more of the creative
parts for some projects and somethings I've got coming up, and
I'm gonna revisit that book andI encourage you to do the same.
Um, especially, yeah, I'vedefinitely I think you've been
listening to audiobooks onhigher, uh faster speeds for a
(41:19):
long time, haven't you?
Dan (41:20):
Uh you know, but I've started to slow that down for
the first time I listenedthrough it because I noticed
that a lot of times I'm gettinga little bit stressed trying to
follow and and retain all thatinformation.
So the first time I listen toit, usually unless they're
speaking really slowly, I willdo one speed or maybe 1.1, and
(41:43):
then if I go back to listen toit to take some notes or pull
something out of it, then I'lldo like a 1.25, 1.5, something
like that.
Charles (41:49):
Really?
Okay.
So if if I'm uh if I'mre-listening to a book I've
already read, like on the driveto your house, because we're
gonna talk about chapters, I'lldo 2.0.
Oh my god.
It's it's not easy, but that'sas fast as I can go and still
feel like okay, it it's becauseit's mostly about triggering the
(42:10):
memory of the first time I readit.
Or you just want to jump intothat moment.
I just I want to kind of justget into that space of feeling
like I I've just been in thematerial.
Yeah.
But yeah, for a brand new book,or certainly for fiction, I
could never for fiction, I'mlistening on 1.0 all the time.
Yeah.
Unless, unless, yeah, forbecause for fiction, the only
time it's ever like, oh my god,this is so slow, I have to speed
(42:32):
this up, is when some an authoris reading his own work of
nonfiction where it's like,dude, you are just I forget what
book it was recently, but thisguy was oh, it was the um The
mind, uh right, yeah, quick,quick guy.
Dan (42:47):
I it was so slow.
Charles (42:48):
Yeah, I had to.
His normal pace of reading isjust it's ridiculously slow.
Yeah, it was only like 10x forthat one.
That was crazy.
Yeah, and uh Sam Harris is avery slow reader and slow talker
on his podcast, but I find hisvoice so soothing and relaxing.
I won't speed him up either.
So I'll I'll listen to him atnormal speed.
But anyway, um, yeah, BigMagic, check it out.
(43:09):
And uh Brene Brown's book, onceI listen to that, uh I think
it's called Strong Ground.
Okay.
Um, that may be somethingbecause we haven't done one of
her books for the show yet,which surprised me when I was
looking at it.
We we reference her stuff allthe time.
We reference her stuff all thetime.
I think we might have talkedabout one of her TED Talks, but
we've never That's right, wedid.
We've never like gone through afull book of hers.
And so this this one may be theone we do that on.
Dan (43:30):
I'm gonna I'll uh Steve holds up to her past work,
though, you know.
Charles (43:34):
I mean, it's hard for me to imagine her putting out
anything that's not really topshelf.
Her and Dr.
Julie.
Like they they could do nowrong as far as I'm concerned.
Um, at least not yet.
So let's talk about infidelityreal quick.
Um he tried to get her to say,I I know he was looking for what
is it that causes people to beunfaithful, and he was hoping
(43:55):
for a fairly brief, conciseanswer.
But from her expert opinion,there just isn't one.
She's like, there's a bajillionreasons why people are
unfaithful.
I mean, she she did do kind ofa good job of boiling it down to
um you're looking to it's aboutcrossing a bridge.
Like you're you're looking toget from you are to somewhere
(44:19):
else that feels like you haven'tbeen there before and you're
not sure you can get there.
And she kind of tied that intowhat it is that draws us to our
partners.
And it's really it's theversion of our partners that are
kind of off doing their ownthing and are not completely
familiar to what we spend ourtime with day in and day out.
(44:43):
So seeing your partner at work,seeing your partner like really
deep into their hobby or theirpassion in a way that is not the
same as the person they arewhen they're yeah cooking
breakfast.
Yeah.
And and she said it's kind ofand and I thought about it a
little bit more too, where itreally when I think about how
(45:05):
addicting the feelings oflimerence are in a new
relationship, I mean it's a lotof work to recreate that.
It may be even impossible torecreate that with your
long-term partner.
And it's also a lot of work toend a relationship and deal with
all the stuff that goes alongwith a divorce or a breakup.
Dan (45:27):
Yeah.
Charles (45:28):
So I think there are some people that just see
cheating on their partner as ashortcut of, hey, how can I
experience all those crazyhoneymoon phase feelings of
limerence without either doingthe work with my existing
partner or ending myrelationship and and you know,
turning my whole life upsidedown for a breakup or a divorce.
(45:49):
And they they just do some maththat say, okay, the easiest way
is for me to just find anotherpartner and and cheat on my
existing partner.
I have never done that or cometo that conclusion that, oh,
this is what I need to do.
And I don't think I ever would,but I mean, never say never, I
don't know, but uh it seems likethat drive for the new, the
(46:13):
exciting, if you're in arelationship where neither you
or your partner are willing toput in any of the work to get
that new and exciting feelingback, at least on a limited
basis, which one of the things Ithink Taraban said either in
his interview or his episode wasum sometimes the cure for um
(46:35):
either a sex drought or justmediocre sex is hotel sheets.
I thought that was a good yeah,I thought that was a good way
to put it because yeah, goinggoing on a nice little romantic
get here with your partner is isa good way to be changing
you're changing the environment.
Dan (46:53):
Sometimes it doesn't take that much.
It really doesn't.
Right.
What's interesting is whenSteven asked her, why do people
in happy relationships cheat?
Yeah.
And and you know, and she said,Yeah, lots lots of times that
is the case.
That you know, they don't wantto end that relationship, they
but they they do cheat.
And I believe she saidsomething along the lines of
(47:14):
it's not that you want to leavethe other person, but that you
want to leave the person youhave become in that
relationship.
Charles (47:21):
Yeah.
Dan (47:21):
And so you are looking for something that's disappeared in
yourself in this currentrelationship.
So you do that with somebodyelse because it's it's difficult
to kind of get that back andget those feelings back.
So hearing that, that reallyresonated with me because that
that makes sense.
You know, there's been timeswhere I've been in a very happy
relationship and you know, had,you know, I you know, I would
(47:43):
think a lot of us have had thesefantasies of of you know
having, you know, having uhcheating or an affair, whatever
it is, not that action.
Charles (47:52):
I didn't all think about it.
Yeah.
Dan (47:54):
But where does that come from?
And I think she really kind ofpinpointed that there's
something that we're missingwithin ourselves that we've we
may have changed because shealso talks about how we both
partners are involved increating this relationship.
And so, as part of that, we arechanging our identities in the
relationship.
(48:14):
So we are actually slightlydifferent people than what we
are when we're single, you know?
Yeah.
And I feel sometimes it's a lotof times, maybe that's why when
we do end up breaking up, isbecause we liked the things and
who we were when we were single,and we have fonder memories of
that.
And so then that's that's whatmight promote the breaking up of
the relationship.
When other times there's a lotof other things that are so good
(48:36):
about that relationship, youdon't want to throw that away
for a fleeting feeling of youknow, missing this one or two
pieces of of your relationship,of who you used to be.
Charles (48:46):
Yeah, I I would say that don't you think that a lot
of the decisions we make inrelationships, um, whether it's
maybe decisions is even not theright word, but the drives, a
lot of it has to do with who weare or who we wish we were or
who we wish we weren't, andwe're looking for qualities and
(49:08):
characteristics in the otherperson that are either making up
for our deficiencies, or youknow, in some cases, and I guess
in the healthier cases, itwould be, you know, hey, here's
something I really like aboutmyself.
I would love to spend more timewith somebody else who is like
me in this way, but also, youknow, has we're gonna be
attracted to some people thathave the right kind of
(49:31):
deficiencies too, and that'swhere sort of our unhealthy
behaviors come in.
Dan (49:36):
When you say right kind of deficiencies, give me an
example.
Charles (49:40):
Oh, look, I mean, if if you grew up with a uh a parent
that had the ability to getsuper defensive or stonewall or
abandon you, then by by default,without doing the work that you
need to do, you're gonna belooking for partners that you
(50:02):
feel have the ability to dothose things too.
Yeah.
And so when I say the rightkind, I just mean the kind that
my nervous system is trained torecognize and say, oh, that's I
can I can understand and predictwhat that's gonna be like.
So that feels safe.
Yep.
Even though it's anything, it'sanything but safe, you know.
But that's that's definitely, Imean, yeah, having matching up
(50:24):
on those deficiencies issomething that all of us will do
if we don't take steps to avoiddoing it.
Dan (50:32):
Yeah, I can see that our nervous systems then are
accustomed to even when this thefeelings are bad for
situations.
Charles (50:38):
Familiarity can can trump good sometimes.
Dan (50:41):
But you know, you know what to expect.
It's not gonna be an unknown interms of how, you know, even if
they do pull away or or ohyeah, just abandon you, whatever
it's like.
Charles (50:50):
No, absolutely.
Dan (50:51):
Like, oh, I can handle this.
I've handled it before, right?
Charles (50:53):
Yeah, exactly.
When you go, hey, I've I've gotthis need that you're not
meeting, and I'd I'd really likeyou to to change the way you
deal with this when it comes toyou and me, and they say thanks,
but no thanks.
I'm not doing it, you're like,Oh, okay, that's that's the
that's it, that's what I thoughtwould have happened.
The world works the way that Ithought it did.
Now I can be heartbroken thatthey said no, but also feel some
(51:13):
relief that the world makessense to me.
Dan (51:16):
Yeah?
Whatever.
So, what would be your biggesttakeaway from this video?
Charles (51:20):
Um my biggest takeaway is spend the time and effort
necessary to recognize whenpeople And I would say I'll
limit this to friends andlovers, um, when they're trying
(51:43):
to make a bid for connection,take some time to recognize it
and verbalize that you recognizeit and and just you know, tell
the truth about what's going on.
Like I I see what it is thatyou want from me, and either I'm
not capable of giving it to youright now, or I am capable of
giving it to you, and here itis.
(52:03):
But either way, don't ignoreit, don't pretend like it didn't
happen, and and don't just Imean, I really do think that the
the cause of so many of the thecauses of so many of the
relationship outcomes that I'vebeen frustrated with are either
bad modeling or I can't I don'tknow if laziness is the right
(52:25):
word, but I didn't put in thework that I needed to put in,
you know, for that securityfreedom balance to keep the
relationship what I wanted it tobe.
And whether it's because Ididn't know how or I didn't feel
safe enough or what whatever.
It was a problem on my end thatI didn't do the work that I
needed to do.
(52:46):
And that wasn't the onlyproblem in the relationship, but
that was a big problem.
And so now again, it's it'skind of a shitty deal for my
past partners that I get underthe hood and do all the hard
work when I'm single, but thatis that is kind of the way the
way that it goes.
Yeah.
Dan (53:03):
For a lot of us, I think.
Charles (53:04):
For a lot, yeah, I think for most people.
So it's just boy, you know, ifif you're gonna do it when
you're single, be serious aboutit so that the next relationship
you get into, you don't make ittheir problem.
Dan (53:15):
Right, right, right.
Charles (53:16):
And so anyway, and and I think the other thing is if
you do that work while you whileyou are single, the quality of
partner that you find yourselfin the next relationship with is
gonna be better as well.
Sure.
Because light does attractlike, right?
So anyway, um, yeah, what aboutyou?
What's uh what do you have totake away?
Dan (53:34):
Uh the phrase she said that love is a verb, and that just
resonated with me on a lot ofdifferent levels that you have
to put in that work.
Charles (53:40):
And you conjugate it every day.
Dan (53:42):
Yes, yeah, kind of that's great.
Charles (53:43):
Yeah, exactly.
Dan (53:44):
She did have some good, she she did have a way to turn her
face and and you know, part ofthat is is realizing that you
know long-term relationships,it's it it is work and it but it
can be an enjoyable work,right?
It's it's not it shouldn't be Ishouldn't use the word
shouldn't, right?
But it it it really shouldn'tbe a struggle, I feel the the
putting in the effort to be asolid, stable partner, but also
(54:08):
bring some variety and somenuance and some you know fun
times and creativity to therelationship, that's both need
to be there.
It's not gonna be one or theother.
And before this, I was like,oh, you know, how do you it it
goes from one to the other, likeall relationships, it's
limerence to you know, roommatesituation, routine, right?
(54:29):
And so, but I was really, youknow, and when she's like, you
know, it needs to be both, itneeds to be both, and you
vacillate from you know freedomto security, back and forth, and
you know, uh stable to uh youknow to variety.
And so that and that's the wayI was kind of applying when she
said love is a verb, you gottayou gotta work for for both of
those things.
Charles (54:50):
Yeah, and and I'm reminded of the idea in it in so
many areas.
It's it's true thatrelationships are hard, but you
know what else is hard?
Breakups, loneliness, andmeeting new people.
That's hard too.
Yep.
So choose your hard, right?
Yeah.
And yeah, it's gonna be, Imean, life, life is hard.
So you just gotta decide, youknow, where where are you gonna
(55:11):
put in the work?
Are you gonna put in the workonly when you're desperate and
you have to put in the workbecause you know, misery is
literally at your door, or areyou going to put in the work a
little bit gradually on aday-to-day basis to have the
fun, exciting, secure life thatyou want to have.
And uh yeah, it requires somesome deprogramming and some
(55:34):
reprogramming, but you know, Igotta think it's worth it
because you know the the lazyalternative is not.
Agreed.
All right, thanks, Dan.
We'll uh we'll start reviewingsome of uh Steve's other
episodes and see who we uh whowe want to dive into next.
Yeah, sounds good.
All right, talk to you later.
Well, thanks for listening allthe way through today's episode
(55:56):
of the Mindfully MasculinePodcast.
Dan and I both appreciate it.
If you enjoyed it, please like,review, and share it with
someone who might get value fromthe conversation.
If you didn't like it, justpretend like you never listened.
For all of our full episodes,audio and video, visit
mindfullymasculine.com.
Thanks again for being herewith us, and we'll see you next
time.
Let's talk about ambiguous loss.
Um this is an interesting termthat she uses for when someone
is physically present butemotionally absent.
And she she mentioned somethingin this section that I I'm
finally gonna take some actionon something that I've been
really bad at for very, verylong.
Which is which is focusing toomuch on my phone.
(00:23):
Okay.
And so the the reason that forsocial engagements, dates,
things like that, I have alwaysfelt like I had a good excuse
was oh, well, what if we'retalking about something and you
know the conversation getsreally interesting and I want to
look up a fact or confirm thatsomething I'm saying is true,
(00:43):
blah, blah, blah.
Dan (00:44):
Sure.
Because you feel like you'reyou'd be able to contribute more
to the conversation, right?
You're investing in the momentindirectly, right?
Yeah, I can see that, sure.
Charles (00:54):
But I think that it's still a net negative on my
friendships and on my romanticrelationships.
I am going to actively startleaving my phone places when
when I know you know you and Iare going out for dinner or I'm
I'm taking my partner on a dateor whatever.
I don't need the phone.
(01:14):
And I don't need it sittingthere, whether it's face up,
face down in my pocket.
It's just temptos.
It's too temptos.
Dan (01:20):
I get it for sure.
Charles (01:22):
Welcome to the Mindfully Masculine Podcast.
This is Charles.
All right, today Dan and I arereviewing Stephen Bartlett's The
Diary of a CEO conversationthat he had with Esther Perell,
one of the world's mostrespected therapists and authors
on relationships and sexuality.
In their discussion, Perellexplores why the quality of our
lives is defined by the qualityof our relationships, how
(01:45):
childhood experiences shape ourpatterns as adults, and the
figure eight loop many couplesfall into.
She explains a tension betweensecurity and freedom, how
presence versus distractionbuilds or erodes intimacy, why
novelty matters in keepingdesire alive, and how issues
like sexlessness, porn, and eveninfidelity connect back to
(02:07):
deeper needs for connection andaliveness.
We'll share our reactions asmen, connect her insights to our
own lives, and talk about whatto do if you never saw healthy
relationships modeled growingup.
For all of our full episodes,audio and video, visit
mindfullymasculine.com.
Thanks for listening and enjoy.
Oh, good afternoon, Dan.
(02:31):
We don't say that very often,do we?
Uh we do not.
No, we usually record in themorning, but uh we've had some
technical issues with thecomputer that we use to record
your side of the conversation,your audio, your video.
And so we've had to come upwith a workaround, and hopefully
we've landed on one that willbe a workaround and will not
(02:52):
crap the bed on us in the middleof the recording.
Fortunately, our failedattempts only got like two and a
half minutes in before werealized there was a problem.
Dan (03:00):
Those were quality two and a half minutes.
They were.
Charles (03:02):
Let's see.
What do we talk about?
We talked about books, westarted to introduce our topic
for this week.
I cleared my throat a fewtimes.
And we've not really come upwith anything conclusive.
We have not been able to figureit out.
Um but uh yeah, we're we'repretty close right now.
(03:26):
I think uh stand out we we didestablish that our chairs are
identical.
So any difference with the waythat we are framed is not about
our chairs.
So um I think it's myslouchiness.
Maybe.
I mean, I I consider I think ofmyself as having poor sitting
posture, but um I don't thinkso.
Usually not in it's like thethe simpler the chair, the
(03:50):
better I sit in it.
Like if it's like a car seat ora big cushy office chair, then
I'll kind of get kind of sloppywith my posture.
But these are just we just uselike very basic folding chairs
here, and so um I I do kind ofdefault to sitting up straight.
Anyway, um we are going toreview, discuss, analyze another
(04:13):
great episode of SteveBartlett's Diary of a CEO uh
podcast, I guess, video podcast.
Uh last week's was uh hisinterview of Orion Terraban, the
um psychologist and behavioraleconomic economist.
Behavioral economist that uhtalks about relationships
(04:35):
through the lens of of economicsand and figuring figuring out
what motivates people and howthey make the decisions that
they make, which I thought wasvery interesting.
So decided to go back to that.
Well, um, why come up with newstuff when we can just talk
about somebody else's stuff?
Yeah.
Steve does a great job ofputting together an interview
and uh and producing a podcast.
(04:57):
He was at um one of the podcastmovements that I went to that
you didn't go to.
He was a keynote speaker.
Oh, nice.
And he he had a lot to sayabout he is obsessive with the
way they produce that show, likemetrics and everything.
Like he he will like keeprecords on humidity and
(05:18):
temperature and all that to seehow people are the most
comfortable, the most talkative,how they produce the episodes
that get the most views.
Like he tries to factor ineverything he possibly can that
goes into what makes a goodepisode good as far as ratings
and views, and then you know,duplicates that does a lot of A
B testing where he'll releaselike different cuts of the show
(05:41):
and see which ones performbetter.
And I mean it's it's he's areal he's a real business.
Dan (05:45):
I mean, yeah, I mean it's it's a real polished interview
where it's I mean, I feel likeit's you know next level of what
the old late night guys weredoing, you know, when they would
do interviews.
I mean, I guess they still dothose interviews when they have
a guest on and and the guestdoes most of the talking.
Charles (06:00):
Yeah.
Yeah.
No, I could I compare it moreto like Rogan's long form
interviews, but it's so muchbetter because I mean Rogan will
go down these rabbit holeswhere he's just saying bullshit
that's just not true, and thenyou know, his producer will clue
him in 15 or 20 minutes downthe road.
Steve Bartlett doesn't ever doanything like that because I
think if he caught himselfmaking a mistake like that, he
(06:21):
wouldn't let it get to air.
Right.
Yeah.
Dan (06:23):
You know, I mean, if he's concerned about the humidity.
Charles (06:26):
Right, exactly.
Come on.
Yes, and the go 20 minutes downon a bullshit story that proves
to be, you know, based on falseinformation is not something
he's gonna do.
And so for that reason, I'dlike to, I think we should stick
with him for a while and andlook at some of his best
interviews and see, you know,what people he's talked to in
the mental health space, therelationship space, um, and for
(06:49):
recreational purposes, otherspaces as well.
I know he did uh an interviewwith Mike Israkel, one of uh one
of the fitness influencers we Iwas gonna say we both like.
I think you like him.
I I get good information out ofhim, but he's one of these
people that uh thinks he'sfunnier than he is, and that's
the worst.
Okay, so we're gonna talk aboutEsther Perel and her interview
(07:11):
um with Stephen Bartlett andwhat the topics that they got
into that I found, um, she'sdone a couple with him, and I
went back to the oldest one.
I figured we should start withthat one because we might want
to do her newer one as well.
But uh this was really a goodprimer to her work in general, I
would say.
She they kind of covered alittle bit of everything that
she focuses her book writing andher own um media appearances.
(07:35):
And I think I've seen her maybenot a TED talk, but something
like that online where she iskind of talking about the same
sorts of things.
Um she leads off by sayingthat, you know, the quality of
all of our lives is going to bebased on the quality of our
relationships.
And if yeah, that reallyresonates because it doesn't
(07:58):
matter how great of a job youhave, how much money you have in
the bank, or how how fancy thehouse that you spend your day
sitting alone in really is.
None of those really define howgood of a life you have.
Aaron Powell Yeah.
Dan (08:09):
And I think that recently they've also linked the quality
of your relationships to yourlifespan as well.
And that was like the numberone predictor of a long life was
the quality of yourrelationships, actually, above
all other health markers,believe it or not.
Charles (08:24):
It's crazy.
Yeah, I believe that.
I know married men tend to livelonger than single men.
I think we had a conversationabout that.
Yeah, there there can be someinteresting causation
correlation discussions aboutthat, like whether you know, the
the person who is going to sayno to marriage for their whole
life is more likely to engage inother risky, unhealthy
behaviors and things.
It's yeah, it's always tough toknow.
(08:45):
Apparently, being being apublisher or an editor whose job
it is to write headlines, younever have to really factor in
the correlation versus causationthing.
You just focus on the theheadlines.
The soundbite.
Yeah, the soundbite, theheadline that's gonna get the
clicks in the eyeballs.
Yeah.
But for so many of thosethings, I I often wonder, okay,
well, you know, what what havewe done to isolate the the thing
(09:08):
we're reporting on is reallythe thing that led to the uh to
the result that we're reportingon?
And the answer is usually notthat right.
Dan (09:14):
Because there's no consequences a lot of times for
for reporters who basically usethe the correlation versus get
it wrong.
Right, you know.
So anyway, Esther Perel here,she's gonna do it.
She's known for mating incaptivity and which we both have
listened to or read, yeah.
Right, which which that book isreally the the basis of that is
improving the relationshipsthat the long-term
(09:36):
relationships, romanticrelationships that we have, and
by bringing a little bit more ofthat spice and whether it's in
into the bedroom or just thatthat novelty that we all
experience at the beginning,which you know we call
limerence, right?
At the beginning of therelationship, how do you keep
that going?
And you know, she kind of makesthe point of and and and Tony
(09:56):
Robbins made this point too withhis teaching about
relationships is if you treatedthe end of your relationship
like you did the beginning ofevery relationship, it wouldn't
end because uh we just takethings for granted.
We a lot of times, you know, wewe devote a lot of our energy
towards our our work life duringthe day, and then we don't have
a lot of it to bring to therelationship at the end of the
(10:17):
day when we finally see ourpartner.
So there's a lot of things thatyou know she goes into and and
she goes into with Steven onthis, but uh that's really a lot
of um a lot of that mating incaptivity was was also kind of
uh there's not a quick solution.
She even mentions there'sreally no answers that come out
of that, other than sometimesyou need to uh accept both types
(10:39):
of a dynamic where you're notgoing to have the exact same
relationship you had at thebeginning, where it's not gonna
be all you know novelty andsuper fun and everything else
like that.
It's it's still going to besome humdrum times, some some
daily life times.
And I think even um uh TerraBand talked about that too,
(11:00):
where when we start datingpeople, we really shouldn't be
doing this big performative typeof experiences or impression.
Charles (11:09):
It really should be because the fall off the cliff
will be all that much harder.
Dan (11:13):
It really should be, hey, this is this is how day-to-day
goes with us, right?
So I think there's you knowsome parallels here between
those two.
Charles (11:20):
Yeah, one of the things I was I was thinking, there's a
few things that came to mindwhen I was listening to this
episode, and uh one of them wasI don't know if it would be
considered laziness or cultureor whatever, but I have seen in
myself and in my friends it'slike when you get into a new
(11:40):
relationship with someone andyou make them your primary and
sometimes exclusive source ofsocial connection in the world,
then you know, it's kind ofcliche to joke about oh, my
wife's my best friend, myhusband's my best friend, my
girlfriend's my best.
It's like the more time youspend around them exclusively
(12:04):
doing everything with them, themore they become your friend.
And for the most part, healthyadults, we're not trying to fuck
our friends.
Dan (12:16):
Yeah.
Charles (12:16):
And we're not thinking about our friends.
And so, you know, you alsosprinkle in some other unhealthy
dynamics where, you know,you're making that partner your
mom or your dad, depending ongender, too.
And it's like, so, you know, wewe start things off with
somebody hot and heavy, and thenthe more time we spend around
them, if we are lazy, if wedon't think about it, if we just
(12:39):
kind of cruise into the nextphase of the relationship,
you're putting all these extraroles on them that you that
neither of you associate withsexual intimacy.
Dan (12:50):
Yeah, yeah.
And they even, you know, theytalk about this in the in the
video where I think she wassaying it was related to we
don't have that sense ofcommunity and larger families
anymore.
It's we're really kind ofputting all those roles on that
one person that we're partneredwith at that point.
That's a lot of responsibility,and like you said, it's going
(13:11):
to mold that into more of a abuddy-buddy friendship type of
just operating, maybe a roommatetype of situation.
But what I thought wasinteresting here is when she
said that a lot of times whenshe'd see couples, more often
than not, when you fix therelationship, it doesn't fix the
(13:31):
sex.
Charles (13:32):
I thought that was interesting too.
Dan (13:33):
But if you can fix the sex, that's got a lot more potential
to fix the actual relationship.
Charles (13:39):
Yeah, that is usually not the way that we think about
it.
We we think about, you know, Ihave to communicate better.
Communicate better, work on theconnection.
And yeah, what she yeah, theway she said it was what you do
in the kitchen is not gonnaaffect what you do in the
bedroom, but what you do in thebedroom changes the people who
walk into the kitchen.
Yo, well said.
Yeah, that's that's the way Iheard that part of it.
(14:01):
I re-listened to that thismorning.
Yeah, I'm gonna drive overhere.
And uh it's like, yeah, that isthat is really interesting.
I mean, if you are if you'remaking an effort to have the fun
and exciting sex with yourpartner that you had at the
beginning of the relationship,then uh Yeah, it will change.
I mean, I I think of it.
Do you remember the um You'veseen Back to the Future, right?
(14:25):
Of course.
You consider that one of theseminal 1980s movies?
Absolutely.
I do I it's hard for me tothink.
I mean, that Raiders, Empire,and maybe Batman.
All Batman came out in '89, soit's kind of right on the tail
end.
I would say Back of the Futurefor me is the ultimate 80s movie
because it had, you know, allthe 80s pop culture stuff, but
it also had a little bit of asci-fi angle.
(14:47):
And anyway, the way that Georgeand Lorraine, the two McFly
parents, relate to each other inthe beginning of the movie
versus the end of the movie.
Yeah.
Um, yeah, when when Marty comesback to 1985, yeah, spoiler
alert for anybody who hasn'tseen it in the last 40 years,
you waited too long.
Um, when Marty comes back tothe future after the past has
(15:11):
been changed because his dadstood up to Biff.
Um you know, he sees hisparents walk in from playing
golf or tennis or something, andhe's like, Mom, you look so
thin.
And because she's in muchbetter shape.
And um she's like, Oh, thanks,Marty.
And then as George passesbehind her, he smacks her on the
ass, which is nothing at allwhat they look like in the
(15:33):
beginning of the movie.
And it's like, yeah, if if youdon't work at that kind of a
relationship with your partner,then yeah, I think, and I've
fallen into that roommate modeland and friend model.
And the other, the othercomponent of it, and she
(15:53):
mentions this in the episode, isso many of us don't have that
long-term healthy, exciting,romantic romantic relationship
modeled for us by our parents.
I I certainly didn't.
I was thinking about that thismorning too on the driveover,
where, you know, my my parents,my father worked hard to my
(16:16):
grandfather who raised me, heworked hard to make enough money
for us to pay our bills.
And my grandmother worked hardto keep up the house and make
sure everybody was fed and hadclothes and all that stuff.
Um, I never saw them work onthe relationship with each other
at all in the slightest.
Like never, never did I seethem say no to something for me
(16:38):
as a kid or for, you know, theupkeep of the house or the job
situation.
Never, never did they say, uh,I can't do that because I
promised my husband or wife Iwas going to do this.
You know, that never ever hadthe their romantic relationship,
their relationship, calling itromantic relationship seems like
a lie, yeah, was never apriority.
(17:02):
And so, you know, as as itbeing the that was a primary
romantic relationship that I sawas a kid.
It's like, okay, so now what doI do?
I just read a bunch of books,and you know, as we've as I've
learned from Terraban and othersources, it's like the insight
that you gain from reading abook about what a relationship's
supposed to be is no substitutefor watching it modeled in real
(17:26):
time.
It just isn't.
Dan (17:27):
Like, and then undoing the model that's been seeded into
our minds as children, and mostof the time, it's not, you know,
I mean, I came from a divorcedparent, so I didn't see my mom
had no relationships after thedivorce, and my dad's were
fairly short term, except forthis for uh you know a more
recent one.
Charles (17:45):
Right.
And do you remember how oldwere you when he met her?
Do you remember 20s, 30?
Dan (17:50):
I was in my it must have been in my 30s.
20s, maybe late 20s, I think.
Charles (17:56):
You were pretty much all locked in as far as how you
viewed relationships by thatpoint.
Dan (17:59):
Right, right.
And and I mean, even and andthere I saw a little bit at this
when it was early on, I saw,you know, some romantic
interactions between the two ofthem, but then I that quickly
turned into a you know atypical, you know, kind of just
I'm doing this and you're doingthat, and we're kind of friends
and we do things together.
And, you know, I so yeah, Ididn't have I really didn't have
(18:22):
a a good model either.
I mean, I had parents offriends who are at least still
married, but they weren't like mmushy or romantic in front of
in front of kids at all, if theywere at all, you know.
Charles (18:36):
And and there I mean there certainly is a way.
Uh I don't see it often, butthere there is a way to be
romantic in fr in a way that issuitable for all audiences.
Absolutely.
And almost nobody does it.
I mean, at least as far as I asfar as I can tell.
Yeah.
And yeah, so I I've had to uhthis is another one of those
issues where recently, um Imean, if I was a 13-year-old
(19:02):
girl with a crystal collection,or you, I would say the universe
is trying to teach mesomething.
Dan (19:06):
Uh-huh.
Charles (19:07):
But uh yeah, the whole idea of the really the the only
way to fix some of thesepatterns that we've learned as
children is to to go throughsort of a disciplined
reparenting um strategy whereyou basically are willing to
open up the hood and get down tothat inner child and say, okay,
(19:30):
it's time for me to, using theguidance of some experts, I've
got to complete some exercisesthat will sort of supplant the
bad information that I got as akid by default with some
deliberate steps of replacing itwith good information.
And so that's that's somethingthat I'm going to be doing now
that I find myself um betweenrelationships, out of
(19:55):
relationships, single again.
Um it's it's time to dedicatesome some time to to sort of
cleaning up some of that messthat is still hanging around.
Yeah.
I'm a 47-year-old man, it'stime to it's time to to get some
of that dealt with in a waythat is going to be permanent
because yeah, I you know, somesome relationships end big and
(20:16):
bad, some end small and fairlygood, but it's still, you know,
I'm not I'm not seeing theresults that I I want to see.
And I think that's becausethere's still some junk in there
that uh neither one of myparents are going to volunteer
to uh fix all of it for me.
Um so I gotta do it myself.
Dan (20:36):
Yeah.
What did you think about herfigure eight dynamic?
Charles (20:39):
Yeah, I did some more looking into that where we're
basically, you know, you've gotthe two people that are stuck in
this never-ending pattern oftrying to make a bid for
connection, and then the otherperson sees that as something
not a bid for romanticconnection and re and responds
to it in a way that isunhelpful.
Um the the one she mentioned isis the case where the man kind
(21:04):
of interprets it as you'retrying to control me, you're
trying to interrupt me, you'retrying to take over my schedule.
And the woman is like, no, I'mjust trying to find a way to
connect with you.
Find a way to connect with youso I don't feel so I don't feel
lonely.
Right.
Dan (21:17):
I don't feel like you're here for me.
Charles (21:19):
Right, exactly.
Dan (21:19):
And and you know, and in that dynamic, he the more she
what she calls knocks,basically, which I guess she was
using Steven's relationship invideo as the example.
Charles (21:29):
Yeah, a lot of credit to him for being as open and
honest as he was.
Dan (21:32):
Where, you know, in he his example that he gave was he'd
come home from work and he'dlook at his, he'd be working on
his laptop for a little while.
And every time he was juststarting to get to work, his
partner would ask him likequestions that really didn't
matter, like, hey, you know, doyou want something to drink?
And he's obviously gotsomething to drink right there.
Or or what do you think ofthis?
And that was just a completely,you know, random thing that she
(21:56):
was she was trying to, and shejust kind of kept interrupting
him.
And the problem was he was notgiving her full attention when
she was asking the questions.
He was kind of like, look offhis phone for a second, uh-huh,
uh-huh, and go back to work.
And so what Esther Perell wastalking about was she kept
knocking on his door saying,Hey, let's connect, let's
connect, let's connect.
And he was recoiling andbasically with that whole,
(22:18):
you're trying to interrupt me.
And I like the way she said isthat we create the other person
and how they react to us inthat, those patterns.
So basically, the more herecoiled and didn't give her any
type of focused attention, themore she kept knocking on the
door, and that more thatbothered him.
(22:39):
And I like how she said, Wereally got to fix yourself.
You need to change something inyou if you want to change
something in somebody else.
So the solution in that casewas stop what you're doing, give
her your undivided attentionfor a couple of minutes, and
then you know, let her know,hey, I just need a couple more
minutes to finish on, you know,what I'm doing here for work,
and that relaxes her nervoussystem.
(23:00):
So then she's less likely tocontinue to interrupt and and
constantly ask for attention.
So I mean so part of it doescome back to communication, I
think, in that regard.
But I you know, it was, youknow, it really kind of hit home
with me.
It's just like, oh wow, inorder to interrupt somebody
else's pattern, you need tofirst interrupt your own and and
(23:22):
do something that's going to bea little bit uncomfortable.
Charles (23:24):
Yeah, and that's and that's the thing.
It's uh, you know, depending onhow you were raised and what
specific uh issues you came outof childhood with, um it's like
the the more chaotic your lifewas, the more you're going to
prize and value familiarityabove everything else, even when
that familiarity is anunhealthy pattern that you
(23:46):
developed with your partner thatcould and probably will lead to
the destruction of therelationship.
It's still like, yeah, but thisis what I this is what I
understand, this is what Iexpect.
So I'm more comfortable withthat than than doing something
different or being the one tostep out and do something
different.
Dan (24:02):
What's interesting, she says, is that that pattern, that
figure eight that keepsreinforcing itself, I should
say, that can be seen not justin that situation, but whether
you're talking about kids, we'retalking about vacations, it
like it's a it's a pattern thatshe sees happen no matter what
the circumstances that the thatcouple is in.
(24:24):
So that's basically what'sdictating the whole dynamic of
the relationship.
And you know, she if she if youremember, she kind of goes down
and says that the the emphasisof one partner, if they are kind
of holding the flame for thatrelationship.
Yeah, that is the somethingthat in at least in Steven's
(24:49):
case, his partner was reallykind of holding the flame for
the relationship.
And that is something that hedoesn't he kind of outsources to
her as part of thatrelationship.
And I think that was the wordthat they even used.
Yeah.
And so what Esther said was ifyou let her do that and you
don't respond, eventually whenshe stops knocking on your door
(25:13):
for attention, you're gonna wakeup one day and go, Oh my god,
what where'd she go?
Like, I I'm alone, I didn'trealize what I had, you know,
until it's kind of gone, right?
Charles (25:23):
Yeah, I think um one of the things she should she
suggested in that section, ifI'm remembering correctly, is
also have a conversation withyour partner where you
acknowledge that that is what'sgoing us.
Yeah where you know you yourecognize it and you appreciate
that they're that they'rewilling to do that.
Because yeah, that with thatpush-pull figure eight dynamic,
(25:46):
it's it's exhausting on the onthe one that keeps chasing,
trying to to get what they need,and the other one is just kind
of backing away, backing offover and over again.
And I think that you know, wewe go into the relationship,
into our relationships with thepersonalities that we have.
And so if you're gonna be achaser and the other person is
(26:10):
gonna be the not chaser, thevery least you can do is have a
talk where you both acknowledgethat that's what's going on and
that you both, you know, atleast can understand, if not
appreciate, the nature of thoseroles and how they're going to
kind of follow you along forthat relationship and and
hopefully figure out a way tomake the relationship work, even
(26:31):
when there is that dynamic.
Yeah.
Dan (26:35):
Yeah.
I think he was saying that hispartner, she does a lot of she's
got uh she does a lot of breathwork.
Charles (26:41):
She's got like a studio or does retreats and stuff.
Dan (26:43):
And and he said that you know, that's not something he
ever thinks about is terms ofrelaxing, taking a break.
He's really focused on work.
And what he said was he doesappreciate that she will
sometimes interrupt him and go,hey, we've got to go to the
beach for two hours.
Charles (26:56):
Yeah.
Dan (26:56):
And you need to take that break.
And he recognizes that it giveshim some balance.
And because he's got thatbalance, he's able to do his
current job better.
So to go back to what you said,which is recognize that you
can't do everything that you'reable to do without that other
person's contribution, naturalcontribution, which is hey, I
(27:18):
want connection.
And through that, you know,they they're able to relax a
little bit, take his mind offthat work.
Right.
You can be then a better CEO ofright of the better partner,
absolutely.
Charles (27:28):
Yeah.
Um let's talk about ambiguousloss.
Um, this is an interesting termthat she uses for when someone
is physically present butemotionally absent.
And she she mentioned somethingin this section that I I'm
finally gonna take some actionon something that I've been
really bad at for very, verylong.
(27:49):
Which is which is focusing toomuch on my phone.
Okay.
And so the the reason that forsocial engagements, dates,
things like that, I have alwaysfelt like I had a good excuse
was oh, well, what if we'retalking about something and you
know the conversation getsreally interesting and I want to
(28:11):
look up a fact or confirm thatsomething I'm saying is true,
blah, blah, blah.
Dan (28:14):
Sure.
Because you feel like you'reyou'd be able to contribute more
to the conversation, right?
You're investing in the momentindirectly, right?
Yeah, I can see that, sure.
Charles (28:24):
But I think that it's still a net negative on my
friendships and on my romanticrelationships.
I am going to actively startleaving my phone places when
when I know you know you and Iare going out for dinner or I'm
I'm taking my partner on a dateor whatever.
I don't need the phone.
(28:44):
And I don't need it sittingthere, whether it's face up,
face down in my pocket.
It's just it's too temptos.
Dan (28:49):
It's too temptos.
I get it for sure.
Brain surgeon, somebody's onthe table dying.
I don't, you know what I'msaying?
Charles (28:56):
So I have to I have to put my phone up to my chest to
get things adjusted.
Dan (28:59):
Stare at it first and then so that is absolutely something
that I I want to work on aswell, but I'm not ready.
I can't, I can't leave in thecar.
Charles (29:09):
So um see, I don't I don't think I've got the you
know, back to the whole gobigger, go home thing.
Like just this, oh I'm justgonna put it in my pocket and
not take it out.
Dan (29:18):
Dude, that's why I don't buy peanut butter.
It's because I don't keep it inthe house.
Because I I've got the same, Ican't, I I can't not exactly no,
that's the right move by takingthe temptation and make it much
more difficult.
Charles (29:28):
Now, see, right now, today's a bad example because
right now I I own one pair of uhconvertible pants for hiking
that uh the unsophisticatedwitness could look at them and
consider them to be cargoshorts.
So if I was wearing cargoshorts or cargo pants to dinner,
which uh God help me if I everdo, yeah, I could put my phone
(29:52):
in a pocket and then zip itclosed.
And that's so that would beenough one more step.
It might be, but again, I I amnot going to sign up for a Life
where I wear cargo pants to anice restaurant.
So it doesn't matter.
It's it's a moot point.
It's staying in the car.
It's crazy.
You know, this this watch is somuch more useful than you know
an old Nokia or Motorola phonewas back in the day.
(30:14):
Where if I'm in the restaurantand I'm waiting for you to show
up and you text me that you'rerunning late, I'll still get it
on my Apple.
I can still respond to itwithout it being a source of
distraction.
Because I mean, real really,yeah, my everything that I need
my phone for, with except formaybe one business app that I
(30:35):
use frequently to remote controlmy customers' computers,
everything but that I can do onmy Apple Watch.
There you go.
So there's no reason.
Dan (30:43):
So now it's gonna be like this, right?
Yeah.
Charles (30:45):
What were you saying, Dan?
I'm sorry.
I lost track of where theconversation was.
Dan (30:54):
Yeah.
Charles (30:54):
Exactly.
So um I'm gonna try that.
The next time you and I hangout, are we going out to dinner
tomorrow night?
Dan (31:00):
Uh we gotta talk about that.
Oh yeah.
Charles (31:03):
Yeah.
Okay.
I don't know.
I think it's I think it's ourlast uh magical dining weekend,
but uh if we can squeeze one ingreat.
If not, no worries.
Yeah.
If we do, I will be leaving myphone in the car.
Okay.
All right.
So God, that means I gotta lockmy car.
I gotta start locking my carnow, too.
Oh my God.
The things we're willing to dofor the appearance of mental
(31:25):
health.
Right.
Dan (31:25):
Move ambiguous loss out of our lives.
Charles (31:27):
Exactly.
Um, all right, we talked alittle bit about the erotic
tension, safety versus freedom,and how um, you know, the the
two things that we're lookingfor in our long-term romantic
relationships are really safetyand excitement.
And it's hard to be both ofthose things.
You can't really be both ofthose things to another person
(31:49):
in a given moment.
You have to choose one or theother.
Dan (31:51):
Right, right.
But we need both.
Charles (31:54):
Right.
You need you need both.
Yeah, and that's that's one ofthe things I've said about, you
know, relationships where umwhere my needs weren't being
met.
The the need to feel umrespected and desired is not
something I require constantly,but I do require it
consistently.
(32:14):
And and I think that if you canfigure out a way to provide I
think every human being does.
Yes.
Yes.
Well, no, some people somepeople require it constantly.
Oh, I see what you're saying.
You know, and and that isthat's a lot of work.
I mean, when if you're withsomebody who requires, you know,
the feel feeling respected anddesired constantly, I think that
puts an undue burden on theyeah, and and I probably I've
(32:37):
probably been in the constantlycamp where before I've engaged
in some of the work that I'vedone over the last few years,
um, I feel like I'm I'm more inthe consistently camp now.
And and now I'm willing to ownthat, that I do need those those
two things consistently.
And if a partner is unable orunwilling to provide it, then
(32:58):
we're we're not not a good matchfor each other.
Um but she does mention how oneof the reasons that men are not
able to manage that balance ofproviding safety and freedom for
their partner is because theyspend all their good energy at
work and then just come home andare ready to basically plant it
(33:19):
on the couch and wait for theirpartner to wait on them.
Dan (33:22):
Yeah.
Charles (33:23):
Which, you know, that's gonna, that's gonna wear on the
partner.
Well, another thing she saidwhen when her and Steven were
getting into uh some of thechallenges he's had with sex in
his relationship with hispartner, she made a point that
I've not really heard voicedthis way, but it makes complete
sense.
We live in a culture, maybe alittle bit less now than when we
(33:45):
were younger, but the generalmessage was men love sex and
women tolerate sex.
I'm sure you remember whetherit's tropes in TV shows or
movies or just hearings, yourfriends chat with each other,
you know, in single sexconversations.
That is definitely somethingthat we have we have made um
(34:07):
sort of a cultural default.
And you know, she she addressesit by saying, Okay, you're
saying that you're complainingthat women don't like sex.
Maybe they just don't like thequality of sex they're having.
Dan (34:20):
Mm-hmm.
Charles (34:21):
And it's like, oof, that is probably true.
I mean you show me a woman thatis consistently having the kind
of exciting sex she enjoys witha partner that is giving her
safety and freedom.
And I would wager that'sprobably a woman who's really
into having sex.
Yeah.
But if you show me a woman thatis just not feeling fulfilled
(34:49):
from the sex, not havingorgasms, not knowing the kinds
of things that it takes for herto have a great time, but she's
with a partner who's not willingor able to do those things,
then yeah, I mean, why would shewant to engage in the practice
of kind of, you know, gettingwarmed up and never never
(35:12):
feeling like she's with somebodywho cares enough to do the job
at at the level that she'swilling to do it for him.
And so I I really think thatthat's changed the way I think
about it.
Now, you know, if I if I dohear a a friend complain or even
joke about, you know, the ideathat women don't like sex, my my
(35:34):
mind from now on is immediatelygonna go to oof, brother, I got
I got some bad news for you.
Dan (35:40):
I mean, that it makes no sense.
I mean, how did humans I mean,you know, how how I mean Do you
really want to answer thatquestion?
Okay, no, I guess we don't getconsensual sex for women is
brand new.
That's that's that's crazy tome.
I that's see, didn't even thinkabout that.
Charles (35:55):
But you're right, absolutely right.
Yeah, there are governments inthe world right now that are
older than female consensualsex.
Yeah.
Dan (36:01):
But I mean, it's got to be built into the human being.
That's what I'm saying.
Really?
And and so yeah, maybe it'sbeen so it's maybe it has been
suppressed for many, many years,right?
In terms of the abilitysocially to for a woman to
express that.
Charles (36:17):
Yeah, I mean, where a woman can say, Oh, if I'm not if
I'm not getting good sex, I'drather have no sex at all.
And like, hey, I get it.
I can if if I was alwaysconstantly having a little bit
of sex, but my favorite parts ofsex, my favorite sex acts were
just completely off the table,then I would kind of adopt a why
(36:38):
bother attitude.
And she talks about that withuh men's kind of their outlook
on porn.
And um, and again, I get tiredof talking about porn, I get
tired of talking aboutmasturbation.
It feels like, you know, everyeverything about male sexuality
kind of does circle back tothose topics, but to her credit,
she does sort of boil it downin a way that uh I've not heard
(37:03):
it laid out before.
Which uh item are we uh on?
Oh, number six.
When a man chooses to interactwith porn instead of interacting
with a real woman, he's kind ofyou know vicariously living
through the male performer.
And what is it that the maleperformer gets in most porn,
(37:24):
which again has been designedand sold, marketed toward men?
Um, he doesn't have to worryabout rejection because women in
porns never say no.
He doesn't have to worry abouthis performance because dudes in
porn never have a hard timeeither starting or finishing.
And in porn, there's never anyambiguity about whether the
(37:47):
woman is having a good timebecause she's screaming her head
off and going crazy, and thingsare being squirted and yelled
and all kinds of things.
It's like, oh, this woman isdefinitely playing the role of
somebody who's really having agreat time and everything's
going perfectly exactly the wayshe'd like it to.
And so that that does make agood case for why some guys are
(38:07):
just like, oh, I'll just sit onthe couch and watch this porn
and pretend I'm the guy in theporn and he's having a perfect
sexual experience, that there'sno um no criticism, no
vulnerability, no rejection,none of that stuff factor in.
So I'll just do that instead.
It's like I personally can't dothat math, but I get why other
(38:29):
people can.
Dan (38:29):
Sure.
I mean, it's a lot less work,it's a lot less vulnerability,
it's a lot less risk that you'regonna get rejected, that you're
gonna feel like you're doingsomething wrong, especially when
you're at your most vulnerable,which is when you're completely
naked, or you know, justwearing socks, you know,
whatever your thing is.
So I absolutely, and that's Imean, the thought, you know, we
talked about that a little bitwith the AI girlfriends and
(38:51):
everything, right?
Is it's it's you're creatingthis perfect world, but that
doesn't do that.
It's so short-lived, you know?
Charles (39:00):
It's like you're and yeah, and compare, I mean, when
you compare it to having goodsex with someone you're in love
with, it is a very poorsubstituted deed.
Dan (39:09):
Yeah, you're not if like like you said before, is when
you change sex, you change thepeople walking into the kitchen.
You're not walking into thekitchen with the the the porn
actors you jerk, you know,jerked off to.
So that's the thing, is it'slike that, you know, those good
feelings then build a sense offulfillment and a basis of an
amazing relationship orpotential for amazing
relationship when you're doinghumdrum thing.
Charles (39:28):
Oh, no, absolutely.
Yeah, when you're when you'reyou know having dinner together,
watching a movie, playing aboard game, and you know that
you're doing that across thetable from somebody that you
consistently have great sexwith, it makes everything else
feel better and more fun.
Dan (39:42):
And I think the other piece of this is physical.
It's like it's a stress relieffor both of you.
So it might loosen things up alittle bit enough to where you
it might get to tap into yourcreative juices a little bit
more and then have some ideas tospice up the relationship and
to do other things or to do thesame things, but in new
(40:05):
different ways, helping to keepsome of that variety that we all
crave alive.
Charles (40:11):
Yes.
And speaking of creative, uh,that reminds me one of the
things we talked about on one ofour other attempts to record is
uh I'm encouraging you and anyof our other listeners, guys
especially, that uh are involvedin any kind of a creative job
or creative side hustle orcreative business that they're
trying to get off the ground.
Uh, read Big Magic by ElizabethGilbert.
(40:35):
Um I'm reminded because her andBrene Brown both recently had
new books come out within likethe last week or two.
And uh I am probably going tore-listen to uh Big Magic.
So um I don't know if it's thekind of book that we we delve
into on the show.
Um I don't I don't know if Iwould I enjoy consuming it.
(40:57):
I don't know if I would enjoytalking about it for that long,
but uh yeah, I I want to uhaccess more of the creative
parts for some projects and somethings I've got coming up, and
I'm gonna revisit that book andI encourage you to do the same.
Um, especially, yeah, I'vedefinitely I think you've been
listening to audiobooks onhigher, uh faster speeds for a
(41:19):
long time, haven't you?
Dan (41:20):
Uh you know, but I've started to slow that down for
the first time I listenedthrough it because I noticed
that a lot of times I'm gettinga little bit stressed trying to
follow and and retain all thatinformation.
So the first time I listen toit, usually unless they're
speaking really slowly, I willdo one speed or maybe 1.1, and
(41:43):
then if I go back to listen toit to take some notes or pull
something out of it, then I'lldo like a 1.25, 1.5, something
like that.
Charles (41:49):
Really?
Okay.
So if if I'm uh if I'mre-listening to a book I've
already read, like on the driveto your house, because we're
gonna talk about chapters, I'lldo 2.0.
Oh my god.
It's it's not easy, but that'sas fast as I can go and still
feel like okay, it it's becauseit's mostly about triggering the
(42:10):
memory of the first time I readit.
Or you just want to jump intothat moment.
I just I want to kind of justget into that space of feeling
like I I've just been in thematerial.
Yeah.
But yeah, for a brand new book,or certainly for fiction, I
could never for fiction, I'mlistening on 1.0 all the time.
Yeah.
Unless, unless, yeah, forbecause for fiction, the only
time it's ever like, oh my god,this is so slow, I have to speed
(42:32):
this up, is when some an authoris reading his own work of
nonfiction where it's like,dude, you are just I forget what
book it was recently, but thisguy was oh, it was the um The
mind, uh right, yeah, quick,quick guy.
Dan (42:47):
I it was so slow.
Charles (42:48):
Yeah, I had to.
His normal pace of reading isjust it's ridiculously slow.
Yeah, it was only like 10x forthat one.
That was crazy.
Yeah, and uh Sam Harris is avery slow reader and slow talker
on his podcast, but I find hisvoice so soothing and relaxing.
I won't speed him up either.
So I'll I'll listen to him atnormal speed.
But anyway, um, yeah, BigMagic, check it out.
(43:09):
And uh Brene Brown's book, onceI listen to that, uh I think
it's called Strong Ground.
Okay.
Um, that may be somethingbecause we haven't done one of
her books for the show yet,which surprised me when I was
looking at it.
We we reference her stuff allthe time.
We reference her stuff all thetime.
I think we might have talkedabout one of her TED Talks, but
we've never That's right, wedid.
We've never like gone through afull book of hers.
And so this this one may be theone we do that on.
Dan (43:30):
I'm gonna I'll uh Steve holds up to her past work,
though, you know.
Charles (43:34):
I mean, it's hard for me to imagine her putting out
anything that's not really topshelf.
Her and Dr.
Julie.
Like they they could do nowrong as far as I'm concerned.
Um, at least not yet.
So let's talk about infidelityreal quick.
Um he tried to get her to say,I I know he was looking for what
is it that causes people to beunfaithful, and he was hoping
(43:55):
for a fairly brief, conciseanswer.
But from her expert opinion,there just isn't one.
She's like, there's a bajillionreasons why people are
unfaithful.
I mean, she she did do kind ofa good job of boiling it down to
um you're looking to it's aboutcrossing a bridge.
Like you're you're looking toget from you are to somewhere
(44:19):
else that feels like you haven'tbeen there before and you're
not sure you can get there.
And she kind of tied that intowhat it is that draws us to our
partners.
And it's really it's theversion of our partners that are
kind of off doing their ownthing and are not completely
familiar to what we spend ourtime with day in and day out.
(44:43):
So seeing your partner at work,seeing your partner like really
deep into their hobby or theirpassion in a way that is not the
same as the person they arewhen they're yeah cooking
breakfast.
Yeah.
And and she said it's kind ofand and I thought about it a
little bit more too, where itreally when I think about how
(45:05):
addicting the feelings oflimerence are in a new
relationship, I mean it's a lotof work to recreate that.
It may be even impossible torecreate that with your
long-term partner.
And it's also a lot of work toend a relationship and deal with
all the stuff that goes alongwith a divorce or a breakup.
Dan (45:27):
Yeah.
Charles (45:28):
So I think there are some people that just see
cheating on their partner as ashortcut of, hey, how can I
experience all those crazyhoneymoon phase feelings of
limerence without either doingthe work with my existing
partner or ending myrelationship and and you know,
turning my whole life upsidedown for a breakup or a divorce.
(45:49):
And they they just do some maththat say, okay, the easiest way
is for me to just find anotherpartner and and cheat on my
existing partner.
I have never done that or cometo that conclusion that, oh,
this is what I need to do.
And I don't think I ever would,but I mean, never say never, I
don't know, but uh it seems likethat drive for the new, the
(46:13):
exciting, if you're in arelationship where neither you
or your partner are willing toput in any of the work to get
that new and exciting feelingback, at least on a limited
basis, which one of the things Ithink Taraban said either in
his interview or his episode wasum sometimes the cure for um
(46:35):
either a sex drought or justmediocre sex is hotel sheets.
I thought that was a good yeah,I thought that was a good way
to put it because yeah, goinggoing on a nice little romantic
get here with your partner is isa good way to be changing
you're changing the environment.
Dan (46:53):
Sometimes it doesn't take that much.
It really doesn't.
Right.
What's interesting is whenSteven asked her, why do people
in happy relationships cheat?
Yeah.
And and you know, and she said,Yeah, lots lots of times that
is the case.
That you know, they don't wantto end that relationship, they
but they they do cheat.
And I believe she saidsomething along the lines of
(47:14):
it's not that you want to leavethe other person, but that you
want to leave the person youhave become in that
relationship.
Charles (47:21):
Yeah.
Dan (47:21):
And so you are looking for something that's disappeared in
yourself in this currentrelationship.
So you do that with somebodyelse because it's it's difficult
to kind of get that back andget those feelings back.
So hearing that, that reallyresonated with me because that
that makes sense.
You know, there's been timeswhere I've been in a very happy
relationship and you know, had,you know, I you know, I would
(47:43):
think a lot of us have had thesefantasies of of you know
having, you know, having uhcheating or an affair, whatever
it is, not that action.
Charles (47:52):
I didn't all think about it.
Yeah.
Dan (47:54):
But where does that come from?
And I think she really kind ofpinpointed that there's
something that we're missingwithin ourselves that we've we
may have changed because shealso talks about how we both
partners are involved increating this relationship.
And so, as part of that, we arechanging our identities in the
relationship.
(48:14):
So we are actually slightlydifferent people than what we
are when we're single, you know?
Yeah.
And I feel sometimes it's a lotof times, maybe that's why when
we do end up breaking up, isbecause we liked the things and
who we were when we were single,and we have fonder memories of
that.
And so then that's that's whatmight promote the breaking up of
the relationship.
When other times there's a lotof other things that are so good
(48:36):
about that relationship, youdon't want to throw that away
for a fleeting feeling of youknow, missing this one or two
pieces of of your relationship,of who you used to be.
Charles (48:46):
Yeah, I I would say that don't you think that a lot
of the decisions we make inrelationships, um, whether it's
maybe decisions is even not theright word, but the drives, a
lot of it has to do with who weare or who we wish we were or
who we wish we weren't, andwe're looking for qualities and
(49:08):
characteristics in the otherperson that are either making up
for our deficiencies, or youknow, in some cases, and I guess
in the healthier cases, itwould be, you know, hey, here's
something I really like aboutmyself.
I would love to spend more timewith somebody else who is like
me in this way, but also, youknow, has we're gonna be
attracted to some people thathave the right kind of
(49:31):
deficiencies too, and that'swhere sort of our unhealthy
behaviors come in.
Dan (49:36):
When you say right kind of deficiencies, give me an
example.
Charles (49:40):
Oh, look, I mean, if if you grew up with a uh a parent
that had the ability to getsuper defensive or stonewall or
abandon you, then by by default,without doing the work that you
need to do, you're gonna belooking for partners that you
(50:02):
feel have the ability to dothose things too.
Yeah.
And so when I say the rightkind, I just mean the kind that
my nervous system is trained torecognize and say, oh, that's I
can I can understand and predictwhat that's gonna be like.
So that feels safe.
Yep.
Even though it's anything, it'sanything but safe, you know.
But that's that's definitely, Imean, yeah, having matching up
(50:24):
on those deficiencies issomething that all of us will do
if we don't take steps to avoiddoing it.
Dan (50:32):
Yeah, I can see that our nervous systems then are
accustomed to even when this thefeelings are bad for
situations.
Charles (50:38):
Familiarity can can trump good sometimes.
Dan (50:41):
But you know, you know what to expect.
It's not gonna be an unknown interms of how, you know, even if
they do pull away or or ohyeah, just abandon you, whatever
it's like.
Charles (50:50):
No, absolutely.
Dan (50:51):
Like, oh, I can handle this.
I've handled it before, right?
Charles (50:53):
Yeah, exactly.
When you go, hey, I've I've gotthis need that you're not
meeting, and I'd I'd really likeyou to to change the way you
deal with this when it comes toyou and me, and they say thanks,
but no thanks.
I'm not doing it, you're like,Oh, okay, that's that's the
that's it, that's what I thoughtwould have happened.
The world works the way that Ithought it did.
Now I can be heartbroken thatthey said no, but also feel some
(51:13):
relief that the world makessense to me.
Dan (51:16):
Yeah?
Whatever.
So, what would be your biggesttakeaway from this video?
Charles (51:20):
Um my biggest takeaway is spend the time and effort
necessary to recognize whenpeople And I would say I'll
limit this to friends andlovers, um, when they're trying
(51:43):
to make a bid for connection,take some time to recognize it
and verbalize that you recognizeit and and just you know, tell
the truth about what's going on.
Like I I see what it is thatyou want from me, and either I'm
not capable of giving it to youright now, or I am capable of
giving it to you, and here itis.
(52:03):
But either way, don't ignoreit, don't pretend like it didn't
happen, and and don't just Imean, I really do think that the
the cause of so many of the thecauses of so many of the
relationship outcomes that I'vebeen frustrated with are either
bad modeling or I can't I don'tknow if laziness is the right
(52:25):
word, but I didn't put in thework that I needed to put in,
you know, for that securityfreedom balance to keep the
relationship what I wanted it tobe.
And whether it's because Ididn't know how or I didn't feel
safe enough or what whatever.
It was a problem on my end thatI didn't do the work that I
needed to do.
(52:46):
And that wasn't the onlyproblem in the relationship, but
that was a big problem.
And so now again, it's it'skind of a shitty deal for my
past partners that I get underthe hood and do all the hard
work when I'm single, but thatis that is kind of the way the
way that it goes.
Yeah.
Dan (53:03):
For a lot of us, I think.
Charles (53:04):
For a lot, yeah, I think for most people.
So it's just boy, you know, ifif you're gonna do it when
you're single, be serious aboutit so that the next relationship
you get into, you don't make ittheir problem.
Dan (53:15):
Right, right, right.
Charles (53:16):
And so anyway, and and I think the other thing is if
you do that work while you whileyou are single, the quality of
partner that you find yourselfin the next relationship with is
gonna be better as well.
Sure.
Because light does attractlike, right?
So anyway, um, yeah, what aboutyou?
What's uh what do you have totake away?
Dan (53:34):
Uh the phrase she said that love is a verb, and that just
resonated with me on a lot ofdifferent levels that you have
to put in that work.
Charles (53:40):
And you conjugate it every day.
Dan (53:42):
Yes, yeah, kind of that's great.
Charles (53:43):
Yeah, exactly.
Dan (53:44):
She did have some good, she she did have a way to turn her
face and and you know, part ofthat is is realizing that you
know long-term relationships,it's it it is work and it but it
can be an enjoyable work,right?
It's it's not it shouldn't be Ishouldn't use the word
shouldn't, right?
But it it it really shouldn'tbe a struggle, I feel the the
putting in the effort to be asolid, stable partner, but also
(54:08):
bring some variety and somenuance and some you know fun
times and creativity to therelationship, that's both need
to be there.
It's not gonna be one or theother.
And before this, I was like,oh, you know, how do you it it
goes from one to the other, likeall relationships, it's
limerence to you know, roommatesituation, routine, right?
(54:29):
And so, but I was really, youknow, and when she's like, you
know, it needs to be both, itneeds to be both, and you
vacillate from you know freedomto security, back and forth, and
you know, uh stable to uh youknow to variety.
And so that and that's the wayI was kind of applying when she
said love is a verb, you gottayou gotta work for for both of
those things.
Charles (54:50):
Yeah, and and I'm reminded of the idea in it in so
many areas.
It's it's true thatrelationships are hard, but you
know what else is hard?
Breakups, loneliness, andmeeting new people.
That's hard too.
Yep.
So choose your hard, right?
Yeah.
And yeah, it's gonna be, Imean, life, life is hard.
So you just gotta decide, youknow, where where are you gonna
(55:11):
put in the work?
Are you gonna put in the workonly when you're desperate and
you have to put in the workbecause you know, misery is
literally at your door, or areyou going to put in the work a
little bit gradually on aday-to-day basis to have the
fun, exciting, secure life thatyou want to have.
And uh yeah, it requires somesome deprogramming and some
(55:34):
reprogramming, but you know, Igotta think it's worth it
because you know the the lazyalternative is not.
Agreed.
All right, thanks, Dan.
We'll uh we'll start reviewingsome of uh Steve's other
episodes and see who we uh whowe want to dive into next.
Yeah, sounds good.
All right, talk to you later.
Well, thanks for listening allthe way through today's episode
(55:56):
of the Mindfully MasculinePodcast.
Dan and I both appreciate it.
If you enjoyed it, please like,review, and share it with
someone who might get value fromthe conversation.
If you didn't like it, justpretend like you never listened.
For all of our full episodes,audio and video, visit
mindfullymasculine.com.
Thanks again for being herewith us, and we'll see you next
time.
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