July 14, 2025 • 34 mins
In this episode of Mindfully Masculine, Charles and Dan dive into Chapters 3 and 4 of The Let Them Theory by Mel Robbins—where things get uncomfortably real about stress, overreaction, and the fantasy of control. From checkout-line rage to masculine stoicism, this conversation blends psychology, philosophy, and a fair bit of sarcasm.
We cover:
- Why your brain reacts to traffic like it’s a war zone
- The myth of “taking control” vs. the power of staying calm
- Stoicism: misunderstood, misused, and still incredibly useful
- What masculinity looks like under pressure (hint: it’s not loud)
- The ABC Loop: how meaning hijacks your response
- Why reacting with less intensity is still a heroic choice
Charles admits he's (occasionally) open to being wrong. Dan shares his personal stress hacks. And both wrestle with what it really means to pause, respond, and lead with clarity—especially when your nervous system has other plans.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Charles (00:00):
That's a way I like to look at this, where the
masculine option is not to be incontrol.
The masculine option is to becalm.
And you can only be calm whenyou're confident and you're
competent and you know thatyou've got the tools to make
everything okay, even when youhit bumps in the road.
Welcome to the MindfullyMasculine Podcast.
This is Charles.
Okay, if you listened to ourlast episode, you know I came in
(00:21):
hot with some skepticism aboutMel Robbins and the Let them
Theory, but credit where it'sdue.
Chapters three and fouractually had me nodding along
more than rolling my eyes.
In this episode, Dan and I diginto what the book gets right
about stress, emotionaloverreactions and the illusion
of control.
We talk stoicism without themacho cosplay, how masculinity
(00:41):
shows up under pressure and whybeing calm might be the most
underrated power move a man canmake.
Takes a big man to admit he'swrong, and if I ever am wrong or
big, you'll hear it here.
First, enjoy the episode.
We listened to or read chaptersthree and four and in this one
(01:01):
we start to discuss stress andthe stress response and what we
can do about it.
So she goes into the inherentpresence of stress in all of our
lives and how we just all haveto deal with it and how most
people are overstressed and notdoing much about it.
Dan (01:21):
And I think part of that too is she recognizes that a lot
of it's little things.
It's not like a bigoverwhelming thing on a
day-to-day basis, it's likelittle things that are kind of
adding up that kind ofcontribute to our own annoyance
which builds up our stress.
Charles (01:35):
Yeah, do you find that you deal with the little things
bothering you that much?
I mean, it was a little toughfor me to identify with her
being so affected by littlestuff.
Dan (01:44):
Not at this age, when I was younger.
Yeah, agreed.
I absolutely could identify withwaiting too long in the
checkout line or when I firstmoved to Florida, and the
public's employees havingconversations with people
instead of it seems.
I don't know.
I think maybe they're betternow because they are able to
multitask and check them outwhile they're having the
(02:04):
conversation, but I justremember they like at the end,
like waiting for payment, peoplewere having like minute or two
discussions.
This was 10 years ago, yeah,and I was like what's going on
right now?
Yeah, yeah, it's reallybothered me, yeah, so I can
understand.
When she talked about going toHome Depot and the lady at the
(02:25):
checkout line was taking hersweet time scanning everything,
then pausing, having aconversation with that person
and then continuing to checkthem out, if you remember in the
book she was talking about howa lot of times she has the
tendency to turn to the personin line next door and roll her
eyes and just go oh, can youbelieve what's going on?
(02:46):
But she paused and she realizedshe's going to let them and she
immediately brought down herstress level.
So when I was younger thatstuff would bother me a lot more
.
As I've gotten older I justit's.
I don't know if I've just gotused to it, expected it, and so
then when it doesn't happen, I'mpleasantly surprised.
Yeah, it still happens to me intraffic, though, even though I
(03:08):
try to tell myself, okay, thisperson, if I get cut off in
traffic or if they're goingreally slow, you know, maybe
maybe they heard somethinghorrible happen to one of their
loved ones.
Charles (03:19):
You know, whatever it is, there's a 0.0001 chance it
has anything to do with you,right?
Dan (03:25):
it is.
There's yeah, there's a 0.0001chance it has anything to do
with you.
Right, and and that's the thing, and also, realizing I can't
make a difference.
Charles (03:28):
Right?
I mean, stuff does bother mesometimes.
I can't imagine it bothering meto the point where it ruins my
day.
Or I get where I'm going andI'm still obsessed over what
happened at the store, whathappened in traffic yeah, it
really doesn't, really.
Yeah, it doesn't ruin my wholein a moment it can be is
annoying.
She talks about like there's nomagic wand you can wave to say
I'm not.
I'm never going to be exposedto those annoying circumstances
(03:50):
again, that's just.
Dan (03:52):
Yeah.
Charles (03:52):
The idea of we need to soften up the world so I don't
have to deal with difficultsituations is never going to
work.
Dan (04:00):
You don't have control over that, like that's.
The fundamental piece of thisis that you control the
controllables, and that's youand your reaction.
She even quotes Epictetus about.
It's not what happens in theworld, it's how you react to it.
Charles (04:12):
Yeah.
Dan (04:13):
So I thought you'd like some of the Stoicism stuff that
he threw out there.
Charles (04:16):
Yeah the thing I found interesting about her ref.
I mean, really, this whole bookis about Sto stoicism.
It's just she's found a way topackage it and sell it to new
people who are new to stoicism.
That feels valuable andresonates with them.
But yeah, when I, when shetalks about people getting let
(04:38):
them tattooed on their body,it's like, okay, so that
barncore, that's a really coollet them tattoo.
Yeah, thanks for explaining tome.
You never heard of stoicismuntil Mel Robbins told you about
it.
Right, you know what I mean.
Dan (04:46):
A lot of people.
I mean, that's the thing too,is you know, it's what you know,
the world that you live in.
You may not have heard of it,or the concept.
I think Mel also does provideit in an actionable way.
So it's good to like.
A lot of those stoicism quotesare great, but it's just like
well, how do I live in a waywhere I'm controlling what's
controllable Like give me anaction plan, and I think that's
(05:09):
one of the benefits of her isthat she gives you those steps
on how to do that.
Charles (05:13):
Yeah, I one of the things when I was preparing for
this and and trying to look atthis through the lens of okay,
how does stoicism in general, orthe let them theory, relate to
sort of masculine expectationsand things like that?
I find that when it comes toanything that references the
application of masculinity ortoxic masculinity, very often
(05:36):
people will try to connectstoicism to that where, oh where
it's like and I think thisprobably happens with men where
men have this attitude of I needto be stoic and they they
implement that in the way of Ineed to suppress all emotions
and any expression of emotionand I'm going to think that's
what stoicism is.
Reading books on stoicismwhether that's going back to
(06:05):
marcus aurelius and readingmeditations, or ryan holiday and
some of the books he's done, ormel robbins it's like stoicism
is not I'm going to shut downall my emotions and I'm going to
address every situation as ifI'm a robot right I.
I think when people talk aboutstoicism that way again, that's
another way to show me a bigflashing neon sign that says I
don't really know about stoicism.
(06:25):
I've not really read anyserious works on stoicism.
I just heard about stoicismfrom somebody else who heard
about stoicism yeah, it's not.
And the people around you?
It's like I'm not going topretend like what's happening
right now isn't affecting me.
(06:46):
I'm just not going to knee-jerk, react in a way that's going to
make my life worse.
That's what stoicism is about.
It's like I'm not going to beso affected in the moment that
I'm going to act out in waysthat make every day from this
day forward harder than it hasto be Right.
Dan (07:02):
I look at it as mental toughness.
That's what it is.
It's managing, it's notignoring, it's not resisting,
it's not feeling those feelings,knowing how to handle them and
then reacting in the way thatyou want to react and not based
on your amygdala that she talksabout Exactly.
Or fight or flight response.
Charles (07:21):
Even just committing to , I'm not going to react in the
worst way possible.
I mean that's an implementationof stoicism to say, listen,
when this happens in the momentand I have this immediate
impulse to do this terriblething, that's going to be bad on
me, bad on the people around me.
I'm going to just make thesituation worse.
I'm going to dial thatextremely negative response just
(07:42):
back a couple of notches.
I mean that that's still asuccessful implementation of
stosis.
Dan (07:47):
Even if it's not the most optimal, it's still something so
do you have a method, a go-toto pause and create that space,
so that you aren't just lettingyour feelings yeah, I've got a
couple things I do out all, allover the place.
Charles (08:06):
I got any kind of checks and from other books
we've talked about.
I think it was the man's guideto women by the gotmans or yeah,
is that the one?
Dan (08:15):
yeah, I think that was one of the things where, where they
talk about just how.
Charles (08:20):
Listen, if you're in the middle of any kind of a
conflict to the point where yourpulse is over 100 beats per
minute, you're going to react ina way that is suboptimal.
I mean, that's not the best wayto react, it's just you can't
help it.
I mean, if your physiology isthat activated where your heart
is beating at more than 100beats per minute, your amygdala
(08:43):
is in the driver's seat andyou're just not going to have
the best reaction.
That's one of the things Ithought about when she was going
through chapters three and four.
We just have all this hardwarethat is not optimized for the
level of real adversity that wedeal with in modern society.
Meaning I thought about it like, say, you're playing blackjack
(09:05):
at a table where it is athousand dollars a hand and you
don't have enough money to besitting at a table where it's a
thousand dollars a hand.
You're going to be in a realstate of distress because of
what's at risk every time thedealer puts your cards out.
But then you get moved fromthat $1,000 a hand table to a $5
(09:27):
a hand table and you're stillreacting as if there's $1,000 at
hand at risk.
That's what it's like to livein modern society.
Dan (09:34):
Yeah when.
Charles (09:35):
That's criminology, yeah, for most of us.
We're not in a position where,if the hunt doesn't go well,
we're not going to eat tonight.
We're not in a position where,at any second, some roving band
of outlaws is going to come intoour subdivision and start
stealing everything and killingeverybody and taking women and
children away.
That's not going to happen formost of us in modern Western
(09:56):
society.
And so, as a result, because wenever have to deal with stuff
like that, it's hey, we got anemail from our boss that says
they want to talk before the endof the work day and our body
doesn't know.
That is not the same thing asthe Raiders coming in from the
next village.
And so we still, our body still,reacts to that email as if the
Raiders are about to come intoour subdivision from the next
(10:17):
village over.
Dan (10:18):
Yeah, same thing when she said she was checking out at
Home Depot with that slowcashier.
She was late for something andit was probably work-related.
And our brain is going oh,we're not going to be able to
make the hunt, we're not goingto be able to bring in the money
, we can't survive.
At least the amygdala goes tothat place.
I think that's a key step thata lot of us can take is find a
(10:40):
way to step outside and relax alittle bit and reassess what
reality is.
When you're in it, like yousaid, and you're stressed, it's
very difficult to open up andreally take a look at what all
the real possibilities are whenyou're in it, because our fight
or flight is basically inprotective mode and that's the
(11:03):
last thing we're going to do isopen up in any capacity and make
ourselves vulnerable and evenbrain-wise.
To think creatively and tothink what all these other
possibilities are is a difficultthing to do, and that's why
coaches and mentors andtherapists are all extremely
valuable.
Charles (11:20):
Yeah, and in the case of Mel being stuck in line at
Home Depot or whatever, I mean,mel Robbins has been Mel Robbins
for quite a few years now, andso her ability to just shoot a
text that says, hey, I got heldup at the store, I'm going to be
a few minutes late.
Everybody's going to wait forMel Robbins to be a few minutes
late from for whatever meetingshe's got.
Nobody's going to be like, ohwell, we're not going to publish
(11:42):
your next book now, mel, andmake all of us millionaires
because you were a little lategetting to the meeting.
Dan (11:47):
Yeah, Well, I mean, but it goes to show that when we set
our expectations and sheprobably set her expectation
that it wasn't going to take her15 minutes to check out in line
and then the expectations arenot met.
That's when we a lot of timesget those feelings of stress and
strain and anxiety, right,because we well, we bring into
it this isn't happening.
Charles (12:08):
I was expecting this to make to take five minutes, and
now it's not taking five minutes, and the only thing at stake
here is my expectation was wrong, Like it's not affecting
anything else other than but Ithought it was going to take
this long and now it's takingthis long instead.
It's a change.
It's crazy.
Dan (12:22):
It's that little thing.
I know it's so nuts the way wework yeah.
Charles (12:26):
Really?
Yeah, because, again, all thishardware is like looking for
patterns, looking for danger,looking for emergencies, and so,
since we're not findingemergencies, we have to create
them.
Yeah, because that's just partof what it means to be a social
primate.
Dan (12:41):
And for me, the response that I've come up with is
basically just take a bellybreath, one breath, and that
calms my physiology down.
If not, if that's not enough anda lot of times it's not I try
to do something physical, likego for a walk, stand up, walk
around the house, do somethingphysical to get rid of the side
(13:03):
effect of our amygdala goingcrazy, which is releasing all
that cortisol and adrenaline andthat starts to make your body
feel uncomfortable and uneasyand it's a lot more difficult
than to think clearly whenthat's all kind of built up.
So doing anything physical alittle bit even I mean I'm not
doing jumping jacks or anythingbut just moving a little bit
(13:24):
helps me change my state andclears me out and helps me take
a step back and then, all right,what's the appropriate response
here?
But if I can't move, a lot oftimes the belly breath, because
it activates your vagus nerve,which is your calming part of
your nervous system, right, theparasympathetic that Immediately
it's almost like a wave, justkind of washes over me and helps
(13:45):
me just relax for just a second, and that's sometimes enough
time and thing for me to doright now is to try to take
(14:08):
control and micromanage thesituation when, yeah, so many of
those cases, the level ofcontrol that would make us feel
comfortable is not actuallyavailable to us Like that's the
key right Like you think, oh, ifI could just take control of
the situation.
Charles (14:22):
But that it's.
There's no, there's nothing youcan do, there's nothing you can
say that's going to give youthe level of control that it
would actually take for you tofeel like you're comfortable.
Dan (14:32):
And just like we were talking about your expectation
when you're waiting online, samething is your expectation now
by taking control is I'm goingto be able to control something
and you're trying to controlwhat you can't control.
You're almost setting yourselfup for disaster, a
self-perpetuating loop here ofnegative feelings because you're
going to try to controlsomething you can't and then
you're going to be disappointedbecause you can't control it,
(14:53):
and now you feel even worse anda lot of times that kind of just
keeps spiraling and you try tocontrol.
So, yeah, I think we need tokind of think of what other
options besides trying to lockdown and take control in that
situation are available to us.
Charles (15:06):
Yeah, she does a good job.
I really liked what she talkedabout with the, the ABC loop.
Okay, I think that was thischapter where she talks about an
event happens, we assignmeaning to that event and then
the reaction we have to theevent is not really based on
what the event objectively is.
It's all based on the meaningthat we've assigned to the event
(15:28):
.
Yeah, and that's an interestingI've never heard it explained
that way before where, yeah,you're not reacting to the thing
that happened to you, you'rereacting to the value and the
meaning that you've assigned tothe thing that happened to you.
Yep, and so if we can figureout a way to break that loop
where we can see what we'redoing in the moment and, instead
(15:50):
of reacting to the meaningwe've ascribed to something, we
can react to the thing thatactually happened, then the odds
that our reaction will beappropriate and effective
skyrocket.
Dan (16:00):
Yeah, I just being open to the possibility.
That's not the only option iswhat we're thinking about, the
situation that is, what'shelpful for me is realizing,
even if I can't figure out oreven believe something else, of
something else specific aboutthat situation.
Just the fact that I know that,objectively, there has to be
(16:22):
other ways of thinking aboutwhat happened, that already puts
me at ease a little bit.
Going okay, maybe you don'thave all the information Right,
maybe you're not objectivelycorrect, maybe this isn't a
hundred percent, what reality is?
That automatically goes okay,that drops me down a little bit.
Charles (16:42):
Yeah, and that's where just sort of the pop culture
version of stoicism can be alittle bit of a tool that you
can use in a situation like this, where you're, if you stop and
think, okay, if I, if I kneweverything there was to know
about the situation and I couldreact to it with the emotion and
passion of a Spock or a data onStar Trek, okay, what would I
(17:03):
do differently from what I feellike I need to do right now?
So, if I had all the info and Iwas able to act on that
information, just process itdevoid of emotion, yeah, what
would that look like?
And that's not necessarily whatyou should shoot for, that's
not necessarily what the goalshould be, but just doing the
exercise of okay, well, if I wasable to do that and I was able
(17:24):
to take all the information thatI might not have access to and
apply a dispassionate solutionto it, what would that look like
?
And how different does thatlook?
Like a friend or a familymember, or you're confronted
(17:46):
with some sort of a socialinjustice.
There are times when reactingwith anger or even rage is the
appropriate response for you totake to something.
I'm not saying that's never theright thing to do, but being
able to just say, okay, if I hadmore information and if I took
on the assignment of reactingdispassionately, what would that
reaction look like?
Compare that to what I feellike I have to do.
Right of reactingdispassionately, what would that
reaction look like?
Compare that to what I feellike I have to do right now.
(18:09):
And then ask yourself is theresomething in the middle that
would be the most effective wayto respond to this?
And the answer is almost alwaysyes.
Dan (18:14):
Yeah, yeah, and yeah, that's.
Charles (18:17):
That's one way that you can kind of role play as okay.
What would that ultimateversion of stoicism look like If
it was in the driver's seat,for coming up with my reaction
instead of my amygdala.
What would that look like?
Dan (18:30):
Yeah.
Charles (18:31):
And would that be a better outcome or would that be
a worse outcome?
Would that?
Would the happy medium betweenthese two maybe make for the
best outcome?
And just being able to take apause back and sort of look at
it like you're up above yourselflooking down, can be very
helpful yeah and I've never hadan experience where I've done
that and I thought, man, Ishould have just had the
knee-jerk reaction.
Dan (18:50):
I would have been so much happier if I just reacted
instantly, in the moment, basedon my, my emotional, passionate
response another way that I tryto remember to do this and I'm
disappointed, I don't rememberenough is what would you say to
somebody else who came to youwith this issue?
Right, it's so much.
It's crazy how quickly you cancome up with an answer when you
(19:14):
think of it and you put yourselfin that position, versus when
you're in it yourself and justfeeling the feelings of being
frustrated and hitting obstacleand letting it get in your way.
And when I, when I'm luckyenough to remember, hey, what
would I tell somebody else to do, it's like it comes to me
immediately.
Charles (19:31):
Yeah.
Dan (19:31):
It's ridiculous.
Charles (19:32):
Yeah, and what it almost all of those scenarios I
would tell the other person todo is you need to dial in and
figure out what, in thissituation, is in your inside,
your ability control and what isnot, and when.
When things are chaotic andwhen things are difficult, the
(19:53):
worst thing you can do is spendyour time banging your head
against the wall trying tocontrol things that you can't
control, because then you're theopportunity cost is just too
high, you're wasting your timetrying to.
The opportunity cost is justtoo high.
You're wasting your time tryingto affect change that you
cannot possibly affect.
And so, yeah, step one has toalmost always be okay.
Here I'm in this situation,what can I control versus what
(20:19):
can't I control, and askyourself how am I wasting my
time right now, in this verymoment, trying to control things
that I have no chance ofcontrolling, and that's going to
be other people, that's goingto be external factors like
traffic, like weather.
I mean you just you're notgoing to be able, no matter how
much effort you put into it,you're not going to be able to
control the traffic, you're notgoing to be able to control the
weather, you're not going to beable to control the nine people
(20:41):
in line in front of you.
Dan (20:42):
Right, yeah, and that's I mean, and that's why I liked the
fact that this isn't just a letthem theory, it's a let me, so
it really kind of helps youunderstand you need to.
In order to do the let me, youhave to control what you can
control, because if you'retrying to use let me and control
other things that are out ofyour control, it's futile.
(21:05):
So you just just the other dayyou were telling me what how you
handled a work situation is.
You're hoping for the best, butyou're planning for the worst,
right, and so you're doing thethings that you're let you know.
You let me work on things thatwould help you prepare for the
worst case scenario, right, andalso recognizing that's
(21:30):
something you need in order tofeel better about the situation,
because you've got that safetymechanism in place at this point
.
Charles (21:37):
Right, yeah, there's the.
You know what's the best casescenario, what's the worst case
scenario, what's the most likelyscenario.
Dan (21:42):
Yeah.
Charles (21:43):
And the most likely scenario in most relationships,
whether that's personal,professional, whatever the most
likely scenario for a givensituation is it's homeostasis.
It's like things probablyaren't going to change that much
.
People for the most part, thepeople you deal with on a daily
(22:03):
basis are not looking to upsetthe apple cart.
They're looking to tweak things.
They're looking to changethings for the better a little
bit, but they're not looking tocompletely just wipe the
Monopoly board off the table andsay let's start from scratch.
And that's one of the things Ineed to remember.
Going into a situation with someunknowns is like okay.
Once I make it through to theother side of the situation, the
(22:25):
most likely thing is thingswill have changed a little, but
not completely changed to thepoint of the recognizable, where
the worst case scenario isalways oh, something super
disruptive is about to happenand it's going to completely
change my life and tomorrow'snot going to look anything like
today.
And that almost never.
It never works out that way,Almost never works out that way.
I mean, yeah, short of somebodydying or being severely
(22:51):
physically incapacitated or youbeing your job or your work
situation completely changing tothe point not where you just
even lose a job, that's likeboom, something happens where I
can't even work in this industryanymore.
That's so rare that somethingthat big happens to us, but
that's immediately where ourbrain goes.
Whenever the chance of change iseven on the horizon, it's
always like, okay, this is goingto be, this is going to be so
big, so disruptive, so whatever.
(23:12):
And it almost never never isRight.
Dan (23:15):
What's interesting to me is whenever I've taken the time to
actually plan for the worst,thinking through it, when I
actually start trying to plan toaccommodate the worst, I
automatically start to think ofwhat's more realistic instead of
going.
I got to leave the industryforever.
Is that really?
(23:36):
I know that's the way you feelright now, but all right.
So all right, if I'm going tostart planning for that, what am
I going to get it?
No, and then I start to kind ofjust, and it starts to kind of
balance my way back up to, asI'm planning for those worst
case scenarios, realizing, okay,the worst case scenario isn't
as bad as these random thoughtsthat are like coming into my
mind based on some really strongfeelings right now.
Charles (23:57):
Right, exactly.
And on the personal side, it'slike you know, when your spouse
or your partner is like, hey,I'd like to talk to you about
something after work today, it'susually not, I'm taking the
kids and moving to another state, it's usually not something
that big, but she just wouldn'ttell us you should just be gone.
Exactly, that's the move.
But yeah, I think one of thethings I wrote in my notes is um
(24:18):
, when it comes to theapplication of masculinity to
the let them theory is, I mean,I know I struggle with the idea
of the masculine thing to do, orwhat's expected of me in a
particular situation, becauseI'm a man, is to take control of
the situation where we werejust talking about with a in a
(24:38):
professional negotiation, theperson who takes the most
control doesn't win thenegotiation.
It's the person who remains thecalmest that wins the
negotiation.
When you're trying to come to asolution that works for all
parties concerned, the personthat's the most effective at
that is usually who goes into itthe calmest.
And what does that mean?
Well, usually that means theperson who's most okay with
(25:01):
their number two choice is theone who's able to remain the
columnist.
So, like, if you go into anegotiation and you're like okay
, number one for me is I getthis new job or this new project
and it and things work outgreat.
Number two is, through thenegotiation process, I find out
this job or this project reallyisn't for me, it doesn't really
(25:22):
speak to my skills, and sofinding that out in the initial
meeting and being able to avoidthis project, that's the number
two scenario.
If you walk into a negotiationwith those being your one and
two, you're going to come outthe winner, no matter what
happens, because either you finda project that speaks to your
strengths and you can excel init, or you find a project that
doesn't speak to your strengthsand isn't a good match for you
(25:43):
and isn't the way you should bespending the next six months or
a year of your life, so you backoff and you exit the
negotiation by not taking it on.
So either way, you're in agreat position because you
didn't say well, the number onething is I get this project.
The number two thing is I don'tget this project, so I'm
homeless and I lose everythingthat I value in life.
If that's your one and two,you're screwed because you're
walking into that where thestakes are so artificially high
(26:07):
that you're not going to be ableto remain objective, rational,
reasonable, confident.
Dan (26:16):
All those things go out the window, and so you just take
what the world's willing to giveyou.
Charles (26:19):
Yeah, good luck, yeah, so yeah, that's a way I like to
look at this, where themasculine option is not to be in
control.
The masculine option is to becalm, and you can only be calm
when you're confident and you'recompetent.
Dan (26:35):
And you know that you've got the tools to make everything
okay, even when you hit bumpsin the road.
And I think one of the biggestfactors in staying calm and
confident is confidence.
not trying to fool yourself intoa situation that isn't based in
reality is either either comingfrom your own freaking out
amygdala, whatever that mightlook like, or from rose-colored
(26:56):
glasses of you you getting hypedup from people outside of you I
was gonna say that, yeah,people around and trying to go,
it's not that bad and oh, like,if neither of those feel like
it's a reality for you, that'sgoing to play with your
emotional state, your feelings,and then you're not going to
feel calm and confident, correct, so that you have a real sense
(27:23):
of what reality is and prove anddo things to prove that out, to
support your theory on whatreality is.
If you need to do a littleresearch or whatever that is, so
that you go, okay, I think thisis what it is, but I'm not sure
about it.
Yeah, do that research, do alittle homework so that you get
really solid in your belief andthen you can come to any type of
(27:47):
situation, knowing what realityis, and you'll have that, that
calmness and confidence, oryou'll be a lot more likely to
have it, at least I think.
Charles (27:55):
Yeah, I think that we can fall into that trap where,
you know, if we're in asituation where other people are
freaked out and that can becontagious, where, me sure, and
people who are freaking out,they want other people to freak
out too, so they feel like weall want to reinforce this idea
of, okay, I, I understand thedepth of what's going on around
me and I've got this right, andso I'm freaked out about this.
(28:17):
You're freaked out about thistoo, right, dan?
And we kind of we're socialanimals.
We try to make it happen thatway.
That's the way we work, yeah,people into our freak out so
that it verifies to us thatwe're right to be freaking out
about something, yeah.
Or if, yeah, it's interestingIn the opposite way, can you
like, hey, this isn't a big deal, right, we can.
We can just adjust to this andsometimes you know it is a big
(28:38):
deal.
Dan (28:52):
We need to treat it like it's a big deal.
But there bandwagon, where wetry to, everybody tries to get
everybody else around them tosee things the same way that
they do.
Yeah, and that's dangerous,because you don't know how much
reality or homework or evidencethat other person has to believe
that right now.
Maybe they're an expert in thatfield or whatever.
Then, yeah, maybe you can taketheir freaking out or their
information a little bit with alittle bit more weight than
somebody just you met on thestreet and have no idea what
their experience is in thesituation.
Right, that's a big differencethere.
But try to get that input andthat information from multiple
(29:16):
sources and not just from peoplewho also could be getting their
influence from a freak outexactly from their own amygdala
freaking out, yeah, and that'sright, that's what?
Charles (29:27):
yeah, we've.
I'm sure we've both seen goodleaders do that.
Where getting their influencefrom a freak out, from their own
amygdala, freaking out, yeah,and that's right, that's what
we've.
I'm sure we've both seen goodleaders do that.
Where it's like, okay, look, Iunderstand your stress.
You think this is an emergencyand you know this pretty well.
So I I do appreciate yourjudgment and your experience,
but if I start freaking out withyou, that's not going to make
things any better.
Oh no, so I can acknowledgethat this is a serious situation
(29:51):
and that you're taking itseriously, but I'll be the one
that takes a step back andremains calm so that you can
have your freak out and I canuse the fact that you're
freaking out to help me get tothe right decision.
But I'm not going to freak outwith you.
Dan (29:59):
Yeah, and I think that's a good way of looking at
masculinity in this context.
Agreed.
Charles (30:05):
Yes, yeah, that's kind of what I would say.
Our job is in those situationsis to say hey look, I can
appreciate and acknowledge thatyou're freaking out right now,
and I can also say the fact thatyou're freaking out probably
means that there's somethingreally serious happening that
needs to be addressed.
I'm not going to freak out withyou, I'm going to try to remain
as calm as I can.
So that gives you space tofreak out and it gives me space
(30:26):
to solve the problem.
Dan (30:27):
Yeah, yeah, and again, it's not the stereotypical version
of stoicism where you don't careand you're putting up a wall,
so you're not, so you're noteven taking into consideration
what those you know, what thosefeelings are.
It's understanding them, takingthem in and then doing
something productive with thatExactly.
Charles (30:45):
Yeah, that's the goal, that's the kind of person I want
to be, the kind of leader Iwant to be, the kind of partner
I want to be.
That's yeah, I want to be ableto say okay, I see how this is
affecting you and that'svaluable information to me and
I'm going to treat it as such.
But we're not both going tofreak out, because if we're both
freaking out, then what are wedoing out?
Then what are we doing?
Looking for some third personto not freak?
Dan (31:05):
out, right, yeah, and then you're not providing any value
to the situation, right, and Ithink it's another piece of it
too.
I think that is kind ofoverlooked.
A lot is in terms of beingmasculine is what kind of value
are you bringing to anysituation?
Charles (31:19):
Yeah, yeah, and in most cases, I think what the world
is looking for from men is calmand competence and certainty,
when certainty is possible.
But it's just the rough thingis when, when you try to bring
the fake version of any of thosethings to a situation and you
(31:39):
just can make it worse.
Yeah, and that we see that inin relationships and friend
groups and politics all the time.
When somebody tries to bring afake version of competence or
confidence or certainty to asituation when they don't really
have it, it just the wholething spirals out of control.
Dan (31:56):
Even if we can't identify it with words, our gut instincts
will be like there's justsomething not right.
I can't put my finger on it,but there's something not right
about that person Because youcan see that they're not being
authentic.
And again, it's a it's.
The further you drift from whatauthenticity and to me that
means being having a foundationreality, yep the the more you're
(32:17):
like ugh, this is this, thisisn't right, this is yeah, this,
what else?
And then your mind goes well,what else isn't right?
Exactly Like this one situationmight be a minor thing, but now
you've kind of lost confidenceand trust when it's going to
come to other things which couldbe more important, and now
that's not a good relationshipfoundation, right?
Charles (32:37):
Yeah, I think of people that I've seen and dealt with
where, just given the, whateverthe situation was, they were
trying too hard to look likethey were the go-to person and
it's like you're the go-toperson in this scenario.
He's the calm one, he's not theone trying to convince
everybody that he's the go-toperson and can be
counterintuitive sometimes, butit's like, yeah, the one who is
(33:01):
behaving as if this isn't a bigdeal because he's been there
before, he's dealt with itbefore, that's the one that's
going to calm me down and makeme feel like, okay, the
situation is in hand, not theperson who's grabbing by the
shoulders and shaking me andtelling me how in control the
situation is.
You know what I mean.
All right, I think we can stopthere for now.
Let's see what's the next topicin our agenda here.
Dan (33:25):
I think it's living for other people's opinions.
Charles (33:36):
And yeah, that's again.
The applications and theimplications to modern
masculinity are huge, becausethat is so.
Many guys are out there livingtheir lives based on what they
want other people to think aboutthem, and they're not focusing
on on what they really are, butjust their image.
And, as a result, I mean thatthat can work perfectly when
things are really smooth andeasy, but then, when something
rough happens, it's like, oh no,now he's revealed himself as
(33:59):
what he really is and I don'tlike it anymore.
Dan (34:01):
And that's when you need the most right.
Charles (34:03):
Exactly, all right.
Thanks, dan.
We'll talk to you next time,okay.
Okay, that's it for thisepisode of mindfully masculine.
If you found yourself breathingeasier or questioning your
entire approach to stress andcontrol, good, that's the point.
Follow the show so you don'tmiss whatever uncomfortable
truth we stumble into.
Next, we'll be back soon withmore clarity, more sarcasm and
(34:23):
fewer amygdala hijackings,probably.
That's a way I like to look at this, where the
masculine option is not to be incontrol.
The masculine option is to becalm.
And you can only be calm whenyou're confident and you're
competent and you know thatyou've got the tools to make
everything okay, even when youhit bumps in the road.
Welcome to the MindfullyMasculine Podcast.
This is Charles.
Okay, if you listened to ourlast episode, you know I came in
(00:21):
hot with some skepticism aboutMel Robbins and the Let them
Theory, but credit where it'sdue.
Chapters three and fouractually had me nodding along
more than rolling my eyes.
In this episode, Dan and I diginto what the book gets right
about stress, emotionaloverreactions and the illusion
of control.
We talk stoicism without themacho cosplay, how masculinity
(00:41):
shows up under pressure and whybeing calm might be the most
underrated power move a man canmake.
Takes a big man to admit he'swrong, and if I ever am wrong or
big, you'll hear it here.
First, enjoy the episode.
We listened to or read chaptersthree and four and in this one
(01:01):
we start to discuss stress andthe stress response and what we
can do about it.
So she goes into the inherentpresence of stress in all of our
lives and how we just all haveto deal with it and how most
people are overstressed and notdoing much about it.
Dan (01:21):
And I think part of that too is she recognizes that a lot
of it's little things.
It's not like a bigoverwhelming thing on a
day-to-day basis, it's likelittle things that are kind of
adding up that kind ofcontribute to our own annoyance
which builds up our stress.
Charles (01:35):
Yeah, do you find that you deal with the little things
bothering you that much?
I mean, it was a little toughfor me to identify with her
being so affected by littlestuff.
Dan (01:44):
Not at this age, when I was younger.
Yeah, agreed.
I absolutely could identify withwaiting too long in the
checkout line or when I firstmoved to Florida, and the
public's employees havingconversations with people
instead of it seems.
I don't know.
I think maybe they're betternow because they are able to
multitask and check them outwhile they're having the
(02:04):
conversation, but I justremember they like at the end,
like waiting for payment, peoplewere having like minute or two
discussions.
This was 10 years ago, yeah,and I was like what's going on
right now?
Yeah, yeah, it's reallybothered me, yeah, so I can
understand.
When she talked about going toHome Depot and the lady at the
(02:25):
checkout line was taking hersweet time scanning everything,
then pausing, having aconversation with that person
and then continuing to checkthem out, if you remember in the
book she was talking about howa lot of times she has the
tendency to turn to the personin line next door and roll her
eyes and just go oh, can youbelieve what's going on?
(02:46):
But she paused and she realizedshe's going to let them and she
immediately brought down herstress level.
So when I was younger thatstuff would bother me a lot more
.
As I've gotten older I justit's.
I don't know if I've just gotused to it, expected it, and so
then when it doesn't happen, I'mpleasantly surprised.
Yeah, it still happens to me intraffic, though, even though I
(03:08):
try to tell myself, okay, thisperson, if I get cut off in
traffic or if they're goingreally slow, you know, maybe
maybe they heard somethinghorrible happen to one of their
loved ones.
Charles (03:19):
You know, whatever it is, there's a 0.0001 chance it
has anything to do with you,right?
Dan (03:25):
it is.
There's yeah, there's a 0.0001chance it has anything to do
with you.
Right, and and that's the thing, and also, realizing I can't
make a difference.
Charles (03:28):
Right?
I mean, stuff does bother mesometimes.
I can't imagine it bothering meto the point where it ruins my
day.
Or I get where I'm going andI'm still obsessed over what
happened at the store, whathappened in traffic yeah, it
really doesn't, really.
Yeah, it doesn't ruin my wholein a moment it can be is
annoying.
She talks about like there's nomagic wand you can wave to say
I'm not.
I'm never going to be exposedto those annoying circumstances
(03:50):
again, that's just.
Dan (03:52):
Yeah.
Charles (03:52):
The idea of we need to soften up the world so I don't
have to deal with difficultsituations is never going to
work.
Dan (04:00):
You don't have control over that, like that's.
The fundamental piece of thisis that you control the
controllables, and that's youand your reaction.
She even quotes Epictetus about.
It's not what happens in theworld, it's how you react to it.
Charles (04:12):
Yeah.
Dan (04:13):
So I thought you'd like some of the Stoicism stuff that
he threw out there.
Charles (04:16):
Yeah the thing I found interesting about her ref.
I mean, really, this whole bookis about Sto stoicism.
It's just she's found a way topackage it and sell it to new
people who are new to stoicism.
That feels valuable andresonates with them.
But yeah, when I, when shetalks about people getting let
(04:38):
them tattooed on their body,it's like, okay, so that
barncore, that's a really coollet them tattoo.
Yeah, thanks for explaining tome.
You never heard of stoicismuntil Mel Robbins told you about
it.
Right, you know what I mean.
Dan (04:46):
A lot of people.
I mean, that's the thing too,is you know, it's what you know,
the world that you live in.
You may not have heard of it,or the concept.
I think Mel also does provideit in an actionable way.
So it's good to like.
A lot of those stoicism quotesare great, but it's just like
well, how do I live in a waywhere I'm controlling what's
controllable Like give me anaction plan, and I think that's
(05:09):
one of the benefits of her isthat she gives you those steps
on how to do that.
Charles (05:13):
Yeah, I one of the things when I was preparing for
this and and trying to look atthis through the lens of okay,
how does stoicism in general, orthe let them theory, relate to
sort of masculine expectationsand things like that?
I find that when it comes toanything that references the
application of masculinity ortoxic masculinity, very often
(05:36):
people will try to connectstoicism to that where, oh where
it's like and I think thisprobably happens with men where
men have this attitude of I needto be stoic and they they
implement that in the way of Ineed to suppress all emotions
and any expression of emotionand I'm going to think that's
what stoicism is.
Reading books on stoicismwhether that's going back to
(06:05):
marcus aurelius and readingmeditations, or ryan holiday and
some of the books he's done, ormel robbins it's like stoicism
is not I'm going to shut downall my emotions and I'm going to
address every situation as ifI'm a robot right I.
I think when people talk aboutstoicism that way again, that's
another way to show me a bigflashing neon sign that says I
don't really know about stoicism.
(06:25):
I've not really read anyserious works on stoicism.
I just heard about stoicismfrom somebody else who heard
about stoicism yeah, it's not.
And the people around you?
It's like I'm not going topretend like what's happening
right now isn't affecting me.
(06:46):
I'm just not going to knee-jerk, react in a way that's going to
make my life worse.
That's what stoicism is about.
It's like I'm not going to beso affected in the moment that
I'm going to act out in waysthat make every day from this
day forward harder than it hasto be Right.
Dan (07:02):
I look at it as mental toughness.
That's what it is.
It's managing, it's notignoring, it's not resisting,
it's not feeling those feelings,knowing how to handle them and
then reacting in the way thatyou want to react and not based
on your amygdala that she talksabout Exactly.
Or fight or flight response.
Charles (07:21):
Even just committing to , I'm not going to react in the
worst way possible.
I mean that's an implementationof stoicism to say, listen,
when this happens in the momentand I have this immediate
impulse to do this terriblething, that's going to be bad on
me, bad on the people around me.
I'm going to just make thesituation worse.
I'm going to dial thatextremely negative response just
(07:42):
back a couple of notches.
I mean that that's still asuccessful implementation of
stosis.
Dan (07:47):
Even if it's not the most optimal, it's still something so
do you have a method, a go-toto pause and create that space,
so that you aren't just lettingyour feelings yeah, I've got a
couple things I do out all, allover the place.
Charles (08:06):
I got any kind of checks and from other books
we've talked about.
I think it was the man's guideto women by the gotmans or yeah,
is that the one?
Dan (08:15):
yeah, I think that was one of the things where, where they
talk about just how.
Charles (08:20):
Listen, if you're in the middle of any kind of a
conflict to the point where yourpulse is over 100 beats per
minute, you're going to react ina way that is suboptimal.
I mean, that's not the best wayto react, it's just you can't
help it.
I mean, if your physiology isthat activated where your heart
is beating at more than 100beats per minute, your amygdala
(08:43):
is in the driver's seat andyou're just not going to have
the best reaction.
That's one of the things Ithought about when she was going
through chapters three and four.
We just have all this hardwarethat is not optimized for the
level of real adversity that wedeal with in modern society.
Meaning I thought about it like, say, you're playing blackjack
(09:05):
at a table where it is athousand dollars a hand and you
don't have enough money to besitting at a table where it's a
thousand dollars a hand.
You're going to be in a realstate of distress because of
what's at risk every time thedealer puts your cards out.
But then you get moved fromthat $1,000 a hand table to a $5
(09:27):
a hand table and you're stillreacting as if there's $1,000 at
hand at risk.
That's what it's like to livein modern society.
Dan (09:34):
Yeah when.
Charles (09:35):
That's criminology, yeah, for most of us.
We're not in a position where,if the hunt doesn't go well,
we're not going to eat tonight.
We're not in a position where,at any second, some roving band
of outlaws is going to come intoour subdivision and start
stealing everything and killingeverybody and taking women and
children away.
That's not going to happen formost of us in modern Western
(09:56):
society.
And so, as a result, because wenever have to deal with stuff
like that, it's hey, we got anemail from our boss that says
they want to talk before the endof the work day and our body
doesn't know.
That is not the same thing asthe Raiders coming in from the
next village.
And so we still, our body still,reacts to that email as if the
Raiders are about to come intoour subdivision from the next
(10:17):
village over.
Dan (10:18):
Yeah, same thing when she said she was checking out at
Home Depot with that slowcashier.
She was late for something andit was probably work-related.
And our brain is going oh,we're not going to be able to
make the hunt, we're not goingto be able to bring in the money
, we can't survive.
At least the amygdala goes tothat place.
I think that's a key step thata lot of us can take is find a
(10:40):
way to step outside and relax alittle bit and reassess what
reality is.
When you're in it, like yousaid, and you're stressed, it's
very difficult to open up andreally take a look at what all
the real possibilities are whenyou're in it, because our fight
or flight is basically inprotective mode and that's the
(11:03):
last thing we're going to do isopen up in any capacity and make
ourselves vulnerable and evenbrain-wise.
To think creatively and tothink what all these other
possibilities are is a difficultthing to do, and that's why
coaches and mentors andtherapists are all extremely
valuable.
Charles (11:20):
Yeah, and in the case of Mel being stuck in line at
Home Depot or whatever, I mean,mel Robbins has been Mel Robbins
for quite a few years now, andso her ability to just shoot a
text that says, hey, I got heldup at the store, I'm going to be
a few minutes late.
Everybody's going to wait forMel Robbins to be a few minutes
late from for whatever meetingshe's got.
Nobody's going to be like, ohwell, we're not going to publish
(11:42):
your next book now, mel, andmake all of us millionaires
because you were a little lategetting to the meeting.
Dan (11:47):
Yeah, Well, I mean, but it goes to show that when we set
our expectations and sheprobably set her expectation
that it wasn't going to take her15 minutes to check out in line
and then the expectations arenot met.
That's when we a lot of timesget those feelings of stress and
strain and anxiety, right,because we well, we bring into
it this isn't happening.
Charles (12:08):
I was expecting this to make to take five minutes, and
now it's not taking five minutes, and the only thing at stake
here is my expectation was wrong, Like it's not affecting
anything else other than but Ithought it was going to take
this long and now it's takingthis long instead.
It's a change.
It's crazy.
Dan (12:22):
It's that little thing.
I know it's so nuts the way wework yeah.
Charles (12:26):
Really?
Yeah, because, again, all thishardware is like looking for
patterns, looking for danger,looking for emergencies, and so,
since we're not findingemergencies, we have to create
them.
Yeah, because that's just partof what it means to be a social
primate.
Dan (12:41):
And for me, the response that I've come up with is
basically just take a bellybreath, one breath, and that
calms my physiology down.
If not, if that's not enough anda lot of times it's not I try
to do something physical, likego for a walk, stand up, walk
around the house, do somethingphysical to get rid of the side
(13:03):
effect of our amygdala goingcrazy, which is releasing all
that cortisol and adrenaline andthat starts to make your body
feel uncomfortable and uneasyand it's a lot more difficult
than to think clearly whenthat's all kind of built up.
So doing anything physical alittle bit even I mean I'm not
doing jumping jacks or anythingbut just moving a little bit
(13:24):
helps me change my state andclears me out and helps me take
a step back and then, all right,what's the appropriate response
here?
But if I can't move, a lot oftimes the belly breath, because
it activates your vagus nerve,which is your calming part of
your nervous system, right, theparasympathetic that Immediately
it's almost like a wave, justkind of washes over me and helps
(13:45):
me just relax for just a second, and that's sometimes enough
time and thing for me to doright now is to try to take
(14:08):
control and micromanage thesituation when, yeah, so many of
those cases, the level ofcontrol that would make us feel
comfortable is not actuallyavailable to us Like that's the
key right Like you think, oh, ifI could just take control of
the situation.
Charles (14:22):
But that it's.
There's no, there's nothing youcan do, there's nothing you can
say that's going to give youthe level of control that it
would actually take for you tofeel like you're comfortable.
Dan (14:32):
And just like we were talking about your expectation
when you're waiting online, samething is your expectation now
by taking control is I'm goingto be able to control something
and you're trying to controlwhat you can't control.
You're almost setting yourselfup for disaster, a
self-perpetuating loop here ofnegative feelings because you're
going to try to controlsomething you can't and then
you're going to be disappointedbecause you can't control it,
(14:53):
and now you feel even worse anda lot of times that kind of just
keeps spiraling and you try tocontrol.
So, yeah, I think we need tokind of think of what other
options besides trying to lockdown and take control in that
situation are available to us.
Charles (15:06):
Yeah, she does a good job.
I really liked what she talkedabout with the, the ABC loop.
Okay, I think that was thischapter where she talks about an
event happens, we assignmeaning to that event and then
the reaction we have to theevent is not really based on
what the event objectively is.
It's all based on the meaningthat we've assigned to the event
(15:28):
.
Yeah, and that's an interestingI've never heard it explained
that way before where, yeah,you're not reacting to the thing
that happened to you, you'rereacting to the value and the
meaning that you've assigned tothe thing that happened to you.
Yep, and so if we can figureout a way to break that loop
where we can see what we'redoing in the moment and, instead
(15:50):
of reacting to the meaningwe've ascribed to something, we
can react to the thing thatactually happened, then the odds
that our reaction will beappropriate and effective
skyrocket.
Dan (16:00):
Yeah, I just being open to the possibility.
That's not the only option iswhat we're thinking about, the
situation that is, what'shelpful for me is realizing,
even if I can't figure out oreven believe something else, of
something else specific aboutthat situation.
Just the fact that I know that,objectively, there has to be
(16:22):
other ways of thinking aboutwhat happened, that already puts
me at ease a little bit.
Going okay, maybe you don'thave all the information Right,
maybe you're not objectivelycorrect, maybe this isn't a
hundred percent, what reality is?
That automatically goes okay,that drops me down a little bit.
Charles (16:42):
Yeah, and that's where just sort of the pop culture
version of stoicism can be alittle bit of a tool that you
can use in a situation like this, where you're, if you stop and
think, okay, if I, if I kneweverything there was to know
about the situation and I couldreact to it with the emotion and
passion of a Spock or a data onStar Trek, okay, what would I
(17:03):
do differently from what I feellike I need to do right now?
So, if I had all the info and Iwas able to act on that
information, just process itdevoid of emotion, yeah, what
would that look like?
And that's not necessarily whatyou should shoot for, that's
not necessarily what the goalshould be, but just doing the
exercise of okay, well, if I wasable to do that and I was able
(17:24):
to take all the information thatI might not have access to and
apply a dispassionate solutionto it, what would that look like
?
And how different does thatlook?
Like a friend or a familymember, or you're confronted
(17:46):
with some sort of a socialinjustice.
There are times when reactingwith anger or even rage is the
appropriate response for you totake to something.
I'm not saying that's never theright thing to do, but being
able to just say, okay, if I hadmore information and if I took
on the assignment of reactingdispassionately, what would that
reaction look like?
Compare that to what I feellike I have to do.
Right of reactingdispassionately, what would that
reaction look like?
Compare that to what I feellike I have to do right now.
(18:09):
And then ask yourself is theresomething in the middle that
would be the most effective wayto respond to this?
And the answer is almost alwaysyes.
Dan (18:14):
Yeah, yeah, and yeah, that's.
Charles (18:17):
That's one way that you can kind of role play as okay.
What would that ultimateversion of stoicism look like If
it was in the driver's seat,for coming up with my reaction
instead of my amygdala.
What would that look like?
Dan (18:30):
Yeah.
Charles (18:31):
And would that be a better outcome or would that be
a worse outcome?
Would that?
Would the happy medium betweenthese two maybe make for the
best outcome?
And just being able to take apause back and sort of look at
it like you're up above yourselflooking down, can be very
helpful yeah and I've never hadan experience where I've done
that and I thought, man, Ishould have just had the
knee-jerk reaction.
Dan (18:50):
I would have been so much happier if I just reacted
instantly, in the moment, basedon my, my emotional, passionate
response another way that I tryto remember to do this and I'm
disappointed, I don't rememberenough is what would you say to
somebody else who came to youwith this issue?
Right, it's so much.
It's crazy how quickly you cancome up with an answer when you
(19:14):
think of it and you put yourselfin that position, versus when
you're in it yourself and justfeeling the feelings of being
frustrated and hitting obstacleand letting it get in your way.
And when I, when I'm luckyenough to remember, hey, what
would I tell somebody else to do, it's like it comes to me
immediately.
Charles (19:31):
Yeah.
Dan (19:31):
It's ridiculous.
Charles (19:32):
Yeah, and what it almost all of those scenarios I
would tell the other person todo is you need to dial in and
figure out what, in thissituation, is in your inside,
your ability control and what isnot, and when.
When things are chaotic andwhen things are difficult, the
(19:53):
worst thing you can do is spendyour time banging your head
against the wall trying tocontrol things that you can't
control, because then you're theopportunity cost is just too
high, you're wasting your timetrying to.
The opportunity cost is justtoo high.
You're wasting your time tryingto affect change that you
cannot possibly affect.
And so, yeah, step one has toalmost always be okay.
Here I'm in this situation,what can I control versus what
(20:19):
can't I control, and askyourself how am I wasting my
time right now, in this verymoment, trying to control things
that I have no chance ofcontrolling, and that's going to
be other people, that's goingto be external factors like
traffic, like weather.
I mean you just you're notgoing to be able, no matter how
much effort you put into it,you're not going to be able to
control the traffic, you're notgoing to be able to control the
weather, you're not going to beable to control the nine people
(20:41):
in line in front of you.
Dan (20:42):
Right, yeah, and that's I mean, and that's why I liked the
fact that this isn't just a letthem theory, it's a let me, so
it really kind of helps youunderstand you need to.
In order to do the let me, youhave to control what you can
control, because if you'retrying to use let me and control
other things that are out ofyour control, it's futile.
(21:05):
So you just just the other dayyou were telling me what how you
handled a work situation is.
You're hoping for the best, butyou're planning for the worst,
right, and so you're doing thethings that you're let you know.
You let me work on things thatwould help you prepare for the
worst case scenario, right, andalso recognizing that's
(21:30):
something you need in order tofeel better about the situation,
because you've got that safetymechanism in place at this point
.
Charles (21:37):
Right, yeah, there's the.
You know what's the best casescenario, what's the worst case
scenario, what's the most likelyscenario.
Dan (21:42):
Yeah.
Charles (21:43):
And the most likely scenario in most relationships,
whether that's personal,professional, whatever the most
likely scenario for a givensituation is it's homeostasis.
It's like things probablyaren't going to change that much
.
People for the most part, thepeople you deal with on a daily
(22:03):
basis are not looking to upsetthe apple cart.
They're looking to tweak things.
They're looking to changethings for the better a little
bit, but they're not looking tocompletely just wipe the
Monopoly board off the table andsay let's start from scratch.
And that's one of the things Ineed to remember.
Going into a situation with someunknowns is like okay.
Once I make it through to theother side of the situation, the
(22:25):
most likely thing is thingswill have changed a little, but
not completely changed to thepoint of the recognizable, where
the worst case scenario isalways oh, something super
disruptive is about to happenand it's going to completely
change my life and tomorrow'snot going to look anything like
today.
And that almost never.
It never works out that way,Almost never works out that way.
I mean, yeah, short of somebodydying or being severely
(22:51):
physically incapacitated or youbeing your job or your work
situation completely changing tothe point not where you just
even lose a job, that's likeboom, something happens where I
can't even work in this industryanymore.
That's so rare that somethingthat big happens to us, but
that's immediately where ourbrain goes.
Whenever the chance of change iseven on the horizon, it's
always like, okay, this is goingto be, this is going to be so
big, so disruptive, so whatever.
(23:12):
And it almost never never isRight.
Dan (23:15):
What's interesting to me is whenever I've taken the time to
actually plan for the worst,thinking through it, when I
actually start trying to plan toaccommodate the worst, I
automatically start to think ofwhat's more realistic instead of
going.
I got to leave the industryforever.
Is that really?
(23:36):
I know that's the way you feelright now, but all right.
So all right, if I'm going tostart planning for that, what am
I going to get it?
No, and then I start to kind ofjust, and it starts to kind of
balance my way back up to, asI'm planning for those worst
case scenarios, realizing, okay,the worst case scenario isn't
as bad as these random thoughtsthat are like coming into my
mind based on some really strongfeelings right now.
Charles (23:57):
Right, exactly.
And on the personal side, it'slike you know, when your spouse
or your partner is like, hey,I'd like to talk to you about
something after work today, it'susually not, I'm taking the
kids and moving to another state, it's usually not something
that big, but she just wouldn'ttell us you should just be gone.
Exactly, that's the move.
But yeah, I think one of thethings I wrote in my notes is um
(24:18):
, when it comes to theapplication of masculinity to
the let them theory is, I mean,I know I struggle with the idea
of the masculine thing to do, orwhat's expected of me in a
particular situation, becauseI'm a man, is to take control of
the situation where we werejust talking about with a in a
(24:38):
professional negotiation, theperson who takes the most
control doesn't win thenegotiation.
It's the person who remains thecalmest that wins the
negotiation.
When you're trying to come to asolution that works for all
parties concerned, the personthat's the most effective at
that is usually who goes into itthe calmest.
And what does that mean?
Well, usually that means theperson who's most okay with
(25:01):
their number two choice is theone who's able to remain the
columnist.
So, like, if you go into anegotiation and you're like okay
, number one for me is I getthis new job or this new project
and it and things work outgreat.
Number two is, through thenegotiation process, I find out
this job or this project reallyisn't for me, it doesn't really
(25:22):
speak to my skills, and sofinding that out in the initial
meeting and being able to avoidthis project, that's the number
two scenario.
If you walk into a negotiationwith those being your one and
two, you're going to come outthe winner, no matter what
happens, because either you finda project that speaks to your
strengths and you can excel init, or you find a project that
doesn't speak to your strengthsand isn't a good match for you
(25:43):
and isn't the way you should bespending the next six months or
a year of your life, so you backoff and you exit the
negotiation by not taking it on.
So either way, you're in agreat position because you
didn't say well, the number onething is I get this project.
The number two thing is I don'tget this project, so I'm
homeless and I lose everythingthat I value in life.
If that's your one and two,you're screwed because you're
walking into that where thestakes are so artificially high
(26:07):
that you're not going to be ableto remain objective, rational,
reasonable, confident.
Dan (26:16):
All those things go out the window, and so you just take
what the world's willing to giveyou.
Charles (26:19):
Yeah, good luck, yeah, so yeah, that's a way I like to
look at this, where themasculine option is not to be in
control.
The masculine option is to becalm, and you can only be calm
when you're confident and you'recompetent.
Dan (26:35):
And you know that you've got the tools to make everything
okay, even when you hit bumpsin the road.
And I think one of the biggestfactors in staying calm and
confident is confidence.
not trying to fool yourself intoa situation that isn't based in
reality is either either comingfrom your own freaking out
amygdala, whatever that mightlook like, or from rose-colored
(26:56):
glasses of you you getting hypedup from people outside of you I
was gonna say that, yeah,people around and trying to go,
it's not that bad and oh, like,if neither of those feel like
it's a reality for you, that'sgoing to play with your
emotional state, your feelings,and then you're not going to
feel calm and confident, correct, so that you have a real sense
(27:23):
of what reality is and prove anddo things to prove that out, to
support your theory on whatreality is.
If you need to do a littleresearch or whatever that is, so
that you go, okay, I think thisis what it is, but I'm not sure
about it.
Yeah, do that research, do alittle homework so that you get
really solid in your belief andthen you can come to any type of
(27:47):
situation, knowing what realityis, and you'll have that, that
calmness and confidence, oryou'll be a lot more likely to
have it, at least I think.
Charles (27:55):
Yeah, I think that we can fall into that trap where,
you know, if we're in asituation where other people are
freaked out and that can becontagious, where, me sure, and
people who are freaking out,they want other people to freak
out too, so they feel like weall want to reinforce this idea
of, okay, I, I understand thedepth of what's going on around
me and I've got this right, andso I'm freaked out about this.
(28:17):
You're freaked out about thistoo, right, dan?
And we kind of we're socialanimals.
We try to make it happen thatway.
That's the way we work, yeah,people into our freak out so
that it verifies to us thatwe're right to be freaking out
about something, yeah.
Or if, yeah, it's interestingIn the opposite way, can you
like, hey, this isn't a big deal, right, we can.
We can just adjust to this andsometimes you know it is a big
(28:38):
deal.
Dan (28:52):
We need to treat it like it's a big deal.
But there bandwagon, where wetry to, everybody tries to get
everybody else around them tosee things the same way that
they do.
Yeah, and that's dangerous,because you don't know how much
reality or homework or evidencethat other person has to believe
that right now.
Maybe they're an expert in thatfield or whatever.
Then, yeah, maybe you can taketheir freaking out or their
information a little bit with alittle bit more weight than
somebody just you met on thestreet and have no idea what
their experience is in thesituation.
Right, that's a big differencethere.
But try to get that input andthat information from multiple
(29:16):
sources and not just from peoplewho also could be getting their
influence from a freak outexactly from their own amygdala
freaking out, yeah, and that'sright, that's what?
Charles (29:27):
yeah, we've.
I'm sure we've both seen goodleaders do that.
Where getting their influencefrom a freak out, from their own
amygdala, freaking out, yeah,and that's right, that's what
we've.
I'm sure we've both seen goodleaders do that.
Where it's like, okay, look, Iunderstand your stress.
You think this is an emergencyand you know this pretty well.
So I I do appreciate yourjudgment and your experience,
but if I start freaking out withyou, that's not going to make
things any better.
Oh no, so I can acknowledgethat this is a serious situation
(29:51):
and that you're taking itseriously, but I'll be the one
that takes a step back andremains calm so that you can
have your freak out and I canuse the fact that you're
freaking out to help me get tothe right decision.
But I'm not going to freak outwith you.
Dan (29:59):
Yeah, and I think that's a good way of looking at
masculinity in this context.
Agreed.
Charles (30:05):
Yes, yeah, that's kind of what I would say.
Our job is in those situationsis to say hey look, I can
appreciate and acknowledge thatyou're freaking out right now,
and I can also say the fact thatyou're freaking out probably
means that there's somethingreally serious happening that
needs to be addressed.
I'm not going to freak out withyou, I'm going to try to remain
as calm as I can.
So that gives you space tofreak out and it gives me space
(30:26):
to solve the problem.
Dan (30:27):
Yeah, yeah, and again, it's not the stereotypical version
of stoicism where you don't careand you're putting up a wall,
so you're not, so you're noteven taking into consideration
what those you know, what thosefeelings are.
It's understanding them, takingthem in and then doing
something productive with thatExactly.
Charles (30:45):
Yeah, that's the goal, that's the kind of person I want
to be, the kind of leader Iwant to be, the kind of partner
I want to be.
That's yeah, I want to be ableto say okay, I see how this is
affecting you and that'svaluable information to me and
I'm going to treat it as such.
But we're not both going tofreak out, because if we're both
freaking out, then what are wedoing out?
Then what are we doing?
Looking for some third personto not freak?
Dan (31:05):
out, right, yeah, and then you're not providing any value
to the situation, right, and Ithink it's another piece of it
too.
I think that is kind ofoverlooked.
A lot is in terms of beingmasculine is what kind of value
are you bringing to anysituation?
Charles (31:19):
Yeah, yeah, and in most cases, I think what the world
is looking for from men is calmand competence and certainty,
when certainty is possible.
But it's just the rough thingis when, when you try to bring
the fake version of any of thosethings to a situation and you
(31:39):
just can make it worse.
Yeah, and that we see that inin relationships and friend
groups and politics all the time.
When somebody tries to bring afake version of competence or
confidence or certainty to asituation when they don't really
have it, it just the wholething spirals out of control.
Dan (31:56):
Even if we can't identify it with words, our gut instincts
will be like there's justsomething not right.
I can't put my finger on it,but there's something not right
about that person Because youcan see that they're not being
authentic.
And again, it's a it's.
The further you drift from whatauthenticity and to me that
means being having a foundationreality, yep the the more you're
(32:17):
like ugh, this is this, thisisn't right, this is yeah, this,
what else?
And then your mind goes well,what else isn't right?
Exactly Like this one situationmight be a minor thing, but now
you've kind of lost confidenceand trust when it's going to
come to other things which couldbe more important, and now
that's not a good relationshipfoundation, right?
Charles (32:37):
Yeah, I think of people that I've seen and dealt with
where, just given the, whateverthe situation was, they were
trying too hard to look likethey were the go-to person and
it's like you're the go-toperson in this scenario.
He's the calm one, he's not theone trying to convince
everybody that he's the go-toperson and can be
counterintuitive sometimes, butit's like, yeah, the one who is
(33:01):
behaving as if this isn't a bigdeal because he's been there
before, he's dealt with itbefore, that's the one that's
going to calm me down and makeme feel like, okay, the
situation is in hand, not theperson who's grabbing by the
shoulders and shaking me andtelling me how in control the
situation is.
You know what I mean.
All right, I think we can stopthere for now.
Let's see what's the next topicin our agenda here.
Dan (33:25):
I think it's living for other people's opinions.
Charles (33:36):
And yeah, that's again.
The applications and theimplications to modern
masculinity are huge, becausethat is so.
Many guys are out there livingtheir lives based on what they
want other people to think aboutthem, and they're not focusing
on on what they really are, butjust their image.
And, as a result, I mean thatthat can work perfectly when
things are really smooth andeasy, but then, when something
rough happens, it's like, oh no,now he's revealed himself as
(33:59):
what he really is and I don'tlike it anymore.
Dan (34:01):
And that's when you need the most right.
Charles (34:03):
Exactly, all right.
Thanks, dan.
We'll talk to you next time,okay.
Okay, that's it for thisepisode of mindfully masculine.
If you found yourself breathingeasier or questioning your
entire approach to stress andcontrol, good, that's the point.
Follow the show so you don'tmiss whatever uncomfortable
truth we stumble into.
Next, we'll be back soon withmore clarity, more sarcasm and
(34:23):
fewer amygdala hijackings,probably.
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