July 7, 2025 • 31 mins
In this episode of Mindfully Masculine, Charles dives into Chapters 1 and 2 of The Let Them Theory by Mel Robbins—and let’s just say, it gets heated early.
From micromanaging her son’s prom to being left off a girls’ trip, Mel lays out the moments that inspired her viral advice: “Let them.” But is it personal growth… or just a new way to dodge accountability?
Charles pulls no punches, questioning whether Mel’s stories reflect real insight or just strategic rebranding. Along the way, he explores control, shame spirals, friendship dynamics, and why some of us might not get invited to the party (and maybe shouldn’t).
You’ll hear:
– Why that prom corsage story is driving Charles up a wall
– The missing middle ground between shame and detachment
– How “let them” might become emotional bypassing without the right reflection
– Dan’s personal connection to the control struggle—and what he wishes he’d heard sooner
– A brutally honest take on whether The Let Them Theory is a breakthrough or just good marketing
Whether you’re a control freak in recovery or just wondering why you didn’t get that group text, this one’s for you.
Next up: Chapters 3 and 4—where stress, control, and identity collide.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Charles (00:00):
From the first two chapters of this book.
I don't like her at all what'snot to like.
Well for you.
The first story that she tellsin chapter one ha about
micromanaging her son's promexperience made me insane.
Like what is wrong with thiswoman.
Dan (00:17):
Okay.
Charles (00:18):
Welcome to the Mindfully Masculine Podcast.
This is Charles, and today Danand I are diving into the Let
them Theory by Mel Robbins.
We're starting with chapters 1and 2, where Mel micromanages
her son's prom, gets left out ofa girls' trip and somehow
decides that this all adds up toa self-help book.
I've got thoughts, strong ones.
(00:39):
Dan's here to defend her, or atleast try and we're unpacking
what it really means to let them, without becoming a doormat or
a control freak.
If you've ever been left offthe group text and wondered was
it me?
This episode's for you.
Check out mindfullymaskingcomto find full audio and video
episodes and anything else wegot going on.
(01:01):
Thanks and enjoy.
First episode discussing thelet them carry by mel robbins.
Have you read this whole book?
Okay, I'm not.
Yeah, you know how I frequentlymention that the wise nobody
told me this before is our onlybook where I've not jumped in
with a bunch of criticism.
Uh-huh, it remains alone okay,all right, I'm.
(01:24):
I'm curious to hear.
All right, is this a lot ofthese first two chapters?
Man, I would you describe melrobbins as likable, unlikable or
somewhere in the middle I, Ilike her very much.
Dan (01:39):
she I and I appreciate the way she breaks down concepts and
makes them actionable.
She tells good stories.
She bases a lot of herinformation on people who are
smarter than she is inscientific research, so, but I'm
pretty familiar with a lot ofher work already.
So that's I definitely.
(02:00):
I definitely appreciate her,yeah.
Charles (02:02):
From her interviews I've seen and shorter clips on
YouTube.
I like her from the first twochapters of this book.
I don't like her at all.
Dan (02:12):
What's not to like?
Charles (02:13):
Well, for you the first .
the first story that she tellsin chapter one, hot about
micromanaging her son's promexperience, may be insane, Like
what is wrong with this womanokay so the big thing was she
either picked out or created orbought or something, a corsage
(02:35):
for her son's date, even thoughhe said not to, even though he
said not to, and then when it'stime to, I guess drop him off or
bring him to prom or whatever,even like the night of he again
told her not to.
So she slips it in her purseand brings it with her anyway
just in case just in case, rightyeah.
And springs it onto the girl.
(02:55):
And this isn't his long timegirlfriend, this is a girl he's
just asked to prom, he knows,wow.
And she springs out like oh, Ibrought this just in case.
Dan (03:07):
And the kicker was she had made, the girl had made her own,
yeah, and she was so nice thatshe ended up saying, oh, I'll
wear it anyway, right, and atthat point Mel, mel didn't feel
good about that, if you remember.
She, she recognized.
Okay, she made a mistake there.
Charles (03:23):
Yeah, I mean, you don't get points for feeling bad
about something that people havewarned you not to do and you
did it anyway, right, and thenit has a terrible result and
then you feel bad afterward.
Listen, yeah.
So then fast forward to chaptertwo.
She's telling this story aboutall of her girlfriends get
together and go on this girl'strip and at first she just
(03:46):
notices a friend is on a tripand she's like, oh, that looks
like fun.
And then she starts goingthrough the post and seeing that
a lot of her friends are onthis trip together and she's not
.
Yep, you know.
Then she gets into the.
Well, they want to go on a tripwithout me?
Let them, that's fine, they cando that.
They're allowed to blah, blah,blah.
And then she in the in chaptertwo it's like and then let me,
(04:08):
let me realize that, okay, Ihaven't really kept in touch
with these people, I haven'tinvested in the friendship, so
maybe they didn't even think ofme.
So they didn't think, theydidn't decide to exclude me,
they just didn't.
I didn't occur to them becauseI haven't been investing into my
friendships with them and my myreaction to that is oh, wait a
second, maybe they did think ofyou.
(04:28):
Maybe they didn't want thewoman who insists on bringing
the corsage to her son's cross.
I'll take this on my I get it.
You and a bunch of our mutualfriends got together and said,
boy, it'd be really nice to goon a really chill, relaxing
vacation where we can stay outlate and dance and not have a
(04:49):
bunch of political conversationsand getting into fights about
whether this senator should havedone this or this president
should have done that.
That's going to be a reallychill, relaxing time.
I'm really looking forward toit.
And somebody's like hey, shouldwe invite Charles?
And the reaction was did younot hear me describe the kind of
vacation that I'm looking for?
Dan (05:07):
Yeah right.
Charles (05:09):
No, if we want this kind of vacation, the last
person we want is Charles.
Dan (05:13):
Yeah.
Charles (05:14):
And then I heard about it or I saw a post about it, I'd
be like, yeah, that makes sense.
I get where they're coming from, but from where I'm at in this
book, so far she has not doneany of the connecting of the
(05:37):
dots to say, okay, maybe the wayI show up to my friendships or
my son's prom is the reason thatmy friends decide let's not
invite Mel if we want to have agood time.
Mm-hmm, yeah yeah.
Those two stories together.
So far she has not taken anyownership of the way I show up
to my relationships.
Might be the reason peopledon't invite me on group trips.
Dan (05:51):
And you left out the other part of the problem, when her
son had just bought brand newsneakers and wanted to go to.
Charles (06:01):
So it was radio Years of the tuxedo.
I hate the sun now too Right,well, oakley.
I hate the sun now too Right,well, oakley.
This game is Oakley.
Dan (06:07):
Okay.
So, as he's known by Mel inthis part, he wanted to go to
also this really popular tacoplace where there's not a lot of
people.
They didn't make anyreservations.
They didn't make anyreservations and there's like 20
of them.
Like all these kids are likeputting them.
He says they have it's a tacostand with like four tables
right and and it's raining outand she's just like here
(06:28):
grabbing, she's trying to givethem umbrellas, she's trying to
help.
All the parents are allfreaking out and she's like we
need to make reservations forthem at a real place where
they've got plenty of room andher daughter, kendall, goes let
them.
It's not your prom mom, it's'stheirs.
Let them do that.
So she finally let go.
That was the whole inspirationof the book.
She finally let go and it'slike all right, you're right,
(06:51):
I'll let them do that.
I'll let her ruin her shoes,I'll let them get soaked in the
rain, I'll let them wait outsideand not get food.
She like let go.
And that was the whole purposeof writing this book.
Was that's the lesson shelearned.
She ended up giving him 40bucks and said have a good time.
He lit up, they had a good time, he ruined his shoes and she
was okay with it.
So that was really an importantlesson for her to learn at that
(07:14):
point.
So I think you'll, you'll,you'll, I'm not going to plant
anything, or too late, I guess,but I, I think, I think you'll
realize that she does realizethe errors of her ways.
Charles (07:28):
Yeah, yeah, but I mean what look?
I mean, I'm not.
I'll be doing a podcast, so Idon't get to be on this book at
the beginning but, I think otherpeople I think you do, because
it's your podcast.
If you want to do, you could.
I think other people may maysee the way that she is
addressing some of these thingsand like look, if, if you find
out that your friends have justgone on a vacation and they
(07:51):
invite you to go along with them, you have a few choices for how
you can react to that.
You get the act of that bysaying, okay, I'm a huge piece
of shit, everybody hates me,that's why they didn't invite me
.
Boohoo, I'm the worst, yadayada.
You could do that.
Or you could say, oh, thisdoesn't affect me at all, they
choose to have a vacationwithout me that has zero percent
(08:13):
to do with me.
That has nothing to do with mewhatsoever.
That's their choice and that'scompletely fine.
They can do that if they wantto.
It doesn't matter to me, yeah.
Or you can be somewhere in themiddle that says, okay, yes,
they're allowed to go on avacation without me.
That doesn't make them badpeople.
That doesn't make me a badperson.
However, what about?
The way I show up to?
(08:33):
These friendships may lead themto make the decision of?
This might be more fun or justeasier.
If we don't ask her and itdoesn't seem like she that's a
possibility she's onlyreferenced the two extremes so
far in chapters one and two ofeither I go into a shame spiral
because they didn't invite mealong, or they didn't invite me
(08:54):
along has nothing to do with me.
That's just a decision theymade.
Where it seems like truth livesin the gray area in the middle,
which is, yeah, they're allowedto not invite you along, but
the decision to not invite youcould have a lot to do with the
way you chose.
You choose to show up like theway you choose to micromanage
your son's products.
Dan (09:15):
Right, right, so have there been.
I mean, I know, when I wasyounger there were a lot of
moments where I could, if Icould go back, I would have told
myself, let them do that that'sokay.
Any anything come to mind foryou where you would have wanted
to go back and go, hey goodquestion.
Charles (09:34):
Yes, I yeah, I think so I think, I think there have
been some situations like that,and I'm not saying there's not
value to be had in this book.
I'm sure that there is, and I'msure that I'm going to stumble
upon things that I really doappreciate and I can get some
good stuff out of and that wecan then pass along to our
audience.
However, one of the otherthings that bother me is she
(09:58):
talks about discovering this.
Let them e.
Dan (10:03):
Okay.
Charles (10:04):
Yeah, either give me the name of the person you got
it from or admit that you madeit up.
You didn't discover this.
Let them theory.
Dan (10:11):
Well, I think what she claims was it came to her when
her daughter, kendall, told herabout the son and his prom.
Let them like, let them fuck uptheir shoes, let them go in the
rain, let them starve and waitonline at the taco place.
That's, that was.
That was what she's claiming asthe discovery.
Charles (10:33):
So yeah, there's somebody else out there who's
claiming that she stole thisidea from them.
Oh really, yeah who is?
That it's a poet, a real poem.
All about a poem called I, Ithink, called Letna, about
letting people make their owndecisions, their own choices.
Dan (10:47):
I mean.
Charles (10:48):
I mean listen, yeah, I mean, with the way the
publishing industry works again,I'm not saying there's not good
stuff in here, yeah, this feelsto me like somebody came up
with a title that could sellsome books and now, all right,
we got the title that's going towork, we've got the title
that's going to move products,so now let's write the book
(11:08):
around it.
And I think that's what she did, because it started as like a
social media post and I thinkher, or somebody that works for
her or with her, decided okay,this is a cash cow, now it's
time to milk it, I mean.
Dan (11:24):
But there's good value in it.
There's good stuff.
I definitely got a lot ofreally good stuff out of it A
lot of practical ways to thinkabout situations where you're
feeling left out, when you'refeeling that something is out of
your control, and you don'tlike it.
So I know, for me personally, Ihave tried to control other
(11:46):
people and other things a lot inmy life, like specifically,
probably around eating, likewith my family, I've basically.
But I know where that comesfrom and it comes from me.
I want the best for them, Iwant them to be healthy.
For me it's most it's probablyan overreaction because I'm
being a type.
I'm being a type one diabetic.
Things affect me a lot morethan an average person who grows
(12:08):
not right.
So I have that built in me andit was also imposed on me and
thankfully in a very strong wayfrom my family and my doctors
when I was really young so thatI could be as healthy as
possible, and it was in the veinof caring and so I kind of
picked up that trait.
And as an adult, I've definitelyoverstepped my bounds at times
(12:32):
with my family and other peoplesometimes where I've probably
tried to control what they'reeating and in terms of made them
feel bad about certain thingsor giving them information they
didn't ask for Right, made themfeel bad about certain things or
given them information theydidn't ask for Right.
So for me, I really could haveused the let them theory back
then and when I was doing thatmore often, to just let them let
(12:55):
.
Let them, let them make thosechoices, let them eat.
For me, a lot of this is Itranslate this into letting
other people stop trying tocontrol their people and and let
them make the choices that theywant to make Right, unless
they're going to hurt themselvesor somebody else.
I think it's a good way to goabout it.
Charles (13:14):
Yeah, but that's where it gets kind of tricky, because
it's very easy for you to tellyourself the story of I have to
intervene because they are goingthere.
Dan (13:22):
And that's exactly what I was saying oh my God, you can't
eat all that candy, you're goingto be killing yourself, kind of
thing.
I mean, being a type 1 diabeticis survival, but they're not.
Right but they're not SurvivalRight, but that's an excuse
because they are not Right.
And even if I eat all thatcandy, that's not going to kill
me.
It's not good for me.
It's not going to kill me.
For me it's like my blood sugarwas too low.
(13:43):
It goes too high.
Nobody dies from too high of ablood sugar Over time.
It's a slow death, but you knowso.
For me a lot of this came intoyeah, stop trying to control the
uncontrollable, which is otherpeople right, and that's I mean.
Charles (14:00):
That is the recipe for a miserable life, right?
If you all it, if you spend allyour time trying to control
things that cannot be controlledit's like banging your head
against the wall.
Dan (14:11):
I mean, come on, yeah, bang your head against the wall.
Charles (14:12):
I mean, come on, yeah, banging your head against the
wall or just digging a hole inyour yard and then filling it up
, and then digging the hole andthen filling it up, it might do.
Just you're doing it, you neednothing done, and you're
spending all this time andeffort on no result to show for
it.
And so, yeah, and that's not.
That's certainly not a conceptshe, she's discovered.
I mean buddhism, stoicism.
(14:32):
There's, there's plenty of ismsthat have come upon this idea
of yeah, if you, if you investall your time in trying to
manage the unmanageable, thenyou're, you're going to just be
miserable constantly.
And yeah, there there is.
There is value in saying peopleare going to do what people are
(14:52):
going to do, and it's not myjob to prevent them or control
it or even guide them or helpthem.
It's, it's our job to givepeople the dignity of their own
choices, and then we can decidewhich people we want in our
lives, based on those freechoices that they're allowed to
(15:12):
make yeah, I know, I mean, Imean, I know.
Dan (15:15):
A lot of times my I've shown when I care about somebody
through trying to control them.
Charles (15:22):
Yeah, Right, yeah, yeah .
Dan (15:24):
And and that's not like oh.
I know what's best kind ofthing, and it's like, even if
you do or even if you've beenproven right, it's, it's just
not the method to go abouthelping somebody or showing
their care for them.
Charles (15:38):
So I, yeah, that's.
I mean it's.
It's a difficult position to bein when, especially when you
see somebody making choices likeyou know oh, I've been in your
position, I've made the wrongchoice you were about to make.
It's over the consequences,I've enjoyed the benefits of
making the right choice whereyou are right now and now I'm
just going to stay quiet andwatch and see what you do.
(16:01):
That is a difficult position tobe in, yeah.
Dan (16:03):
Well, I think I don't know if it was you or somebody else,
I heard that from which was agood way to approach, that is,
to just offer them thesuggestion that, hey, I've I've
experienced something similarbefore, and just kind of put
that out there and see if theybite and say, oh, okay, well,
what did you do, right?
Allow them then to say, oh, Ido want advice, like or no, I
(16:30):
don't need it, I'm good, right,yeah.
Charles (16:32):
And I mean.
The problem with that that I'veexperienced too, is have you,
if you set your entirerelationship with someone
conditioning them so that whenyou ask them if they want your
advice, they feel like they haveno choice but to say yes and
yeah, if you're not reallygiving them the choice that it
feels like you're giving, yeah?
Dan (16:50):
Yeah, I think a lot of that has to do also no-transcript,
(17:21):
but to sit down and eat, yeah,and it's still their choice.
But it's still their choice.
I mean, I mean you, yeah, butyou, you're right, you may have
trained them is better.
Charles (17:31):
The first in the first way, of just telling them what
to do, whether they want to hearit or not.
Yeah, but it's still notoptimal.
So, all right, let's pause fora second.
I got to pee.
Dan (17:39):
Oh yeah, all right, no problem.
Charles (17:43):
Yeah.
So the thing I wanted to see alittle bit more, or hear more
from her and I hope I do in thein the rest of the book is
whenever you're in acircumstance where someone is
giving you treatment that youfind uncomfortable or
undesirable.
I think that healthy andeffective people do ask the
(18:06):
question of okay, how have Icontributed?
Or, to use the recent now, howhave I set the table for the
easiest choice they could maketo be Let me exclude Charles or
let me work.
Charles isn't, let me notinvite Charles because because
(18:27):
of how, how he is or how he isshowing up and again, I don't
think this I don't think thesolution is to ruminate on that
or to obsess over it or to feelterrible about yourself.
Yeah, you know, if you do getghosted, if you do get broken up
with, if your friends go on atrip without inviting you, there
is a portion of that again thatI think healthy, effective
(18:48):
people do, where they say, okay,this thing's a little bit, yeah
, what might I have done, whatpart might I have played in this
result that I'm feelinguncomfortable about?
Yeah, and so far, like I said,she seemed to in the first two
chapters at least, she's hit theextremes of either going into a
(19:09):
shame spiral.
I'm a terrible person, I'm apiece of shit.
That's why they did that.
That's why they treated me thisway to oh, they won't treat me
that way they can treat.
That's why they treated me thisway to oh, they won't treat me
that way.
They can treat me that way.
That's fine.
That's up to them.
They can just do that.
It has to do with them.
It doesn't have to do with me.
Where I want to see an approachin the middle where you're
taking some accountability andsome responsibility for, yeah,
this situation.
That's not reality.
Dan (19:55):
There is some sort of most, there is most likely some part
of some part of this that youdid contribute to, and you need
to at least recognize it andrealize what that is and not
just kind of put your head inthe sand Cause a lot of times,
like when I first read let them,I thought, oh, it's fuck them,
right Like.
I thought, oh, it's me Fuckthem, right, like, like, right,
(20:16):
like, like all right, all right.
And so that was my firstreaction when I heard that.
And then I speak of a book witha tie down the title of the
book.
Here we go.
So and she does start to touchon that Is that there is
something else that's neededbecause, yeah, it can lead you
to a feeling of superiority andalso isolation.
(20:36):
So, basically, you forget ifyou're telling them, oh well,
let them go ahead, let them, letthem it.
And at times throughout lifewhen I've done that, yeah, it's,
it's made me feel good in themoment, because I'm able to then
feel like release that anxietyand that like from from blaming
(20:56):
myself to blaming somebody else,and that always feels good, you
know, and but, but it doesn'tlast very long because you're
like, well, I'm still not, likeI'm still upset about the
situation.
Like longer term it doesn'tresolve anything.
Charles (21:08):
Yes, in fact, I thought of an example of this.
And get a little political here.
If you do the let them, withoutthe let me, the only people
left in your life are going tobe, yes, men and sycophants.
Dan (21:21):
Mm-hmm yeah.
Charles (21:24):
I think we can see that in some examples in our own
government.
Yeah For sure, If your attitudeis, I am never going to admit
to not knowing something.
I'm never going to admit tomeeting experts who understand
things I don't understand.
To fill me in, I'm just goingto say this is the line and you
pair it the party line, or elseyou're out of here.
(21:45):
And then all of a sudden, anyof the experts who might
disagree with you, they worktheir way out of your inner
circle and all you getsurrounding you are people that
agree with you and tell you whatyou want to hear.
It surrounding you are peoplethat agree with you and tell you
what you want to hear, and Iwould almost argue that being
surrounded by people like thatis more lonely than just being
alone well, see, here's thething.
Dan (22:05):
It's like social media, does that?
Too, but all, but the socialmedia does that too.
It feeds you what you'reinterested in and and to support
you whatever.
Charles (22:13):
So, if anything, and that could be why so many people
who are obsessed with socialmedia feel so bad about
themselves all the time becausemaybe you bring all the years of
a quick fix right.
Dan (22:22):
It's a quick, it's a quick dopamine hit, but it's like
long-term it's not going tobuild, I feel, a level of
fulfillment.
Charles (22:29):
So the let me part, which she didn't really she
spent more time on let them inthe first chapter than she did
on let me in the second chapteryeah, and so I'm anxious to hear
more about the let me theoryand exactly what that means to
her and how she structures it.
Yeah, I feel like and I'veexperienced the end of
(22:51):
relationships before where I'vetaken the approach of this is a
hundred percent my fault and soI feel terrible about it, and
the other side of this is ahundred percent their fault, so
I feel cold and dead about it.
Right, and neither one of thoseis a reflection of reality, and
so neither one of those givesyou the opportunity to feel like
(23:12):
, okay, this is hard, but I'vemoved forward.
Yeah, to feel like, okay, thisis hard, but I've moved forward,
like you don't get that feelingfrom either of those approaches
of either it's all their faultor it's all my fault.
The only way that you can lookat it and and build upon your
own health and your ownwellbeing is to say, okay, this
person and I built thisrelationship that eventually
failed together and we bothplayed a role in making it into
(23:35):
something that was notsustainable.
I gotta learn about the partsthat I brought to this
relationship that didn't help it, hurt it instead.
I've got to learn about thethings that I was attracted to
in this other person that theybrought that turned out to be
not sustainable as well, andthen I can move forward and hope
to build on this foundation formy next relationship.
But if you take an all ornothing approach to your
(23:57):
personal responsibility, oh well, yeah, I mean whether that's
getting fired from a job,whether it's getting broke up,
whatever it is.
If you take on the, either itwas all my fault or this had
nothing to do with me.
Neither of them were based inreality, Correct Absolutely, and
so you're not going to be ableto build on that to have
anything valuable in the futureno, because you're going to be
building off of a false pretense, if anything, if you're going
(24:19):
to build at all from thatexactly.
You're on a shaky foundation,and so that that was my only
concern and again, I'm open tothe possibility this is all
stuff that I'm bringing intothis book.
That she's not saying, but itdid feel like the.
The way she talked herself outof feeling bad about her friends
going on the trip.
I mean she immediately went towell, it's because I'm a
(24:41):
workaholic, and the whole.
I don't have the things in lifebecause I'm a workaholic is a
little bit of a humble brag.
You're better about yourself,it's not.
I don't have the friendshipsthat I want because I'm a shitty
friend and I'm annoying topeople.
Like I can't set aside theseawkward tendencies that make
(25:06):
people uncomfortable.
It's a lot easier to say it'sbecause I'm working, I take my
career too seriously.
You know what I mean if youhave to make an excuse like I
have good friends, I work toohard and I value my career too
much, or I spend too much timefocusing on my family, so I
neglect my friendships.
So like, all right, these aregood ways to get yourself out of
feeling a little bit ofpressure.
Dan (25:27):
So, if you remember she does talk about these people
were friends where she wasprobably in full annoyance mode,
like when she was younger,because she said, I knew them
from, we raised our kidstogether, we had gone on, we
spent weekends together, we hadgone on double dates with our
partners together, things likethat.
Right, so that was even beforeshe discovered the let them
(25:48):
theory.
So she was probably in her fullcontrolling crazy mode and they
were still friends with her atthat point.
Okay, so I think she might beright in terms of just, she
hasn't put her time and effortinto the friendship.
They already knew how annoyingshe was, according to you
According to you, that's how I'mthinking it anyways Because
(26:09):
they full well know herpersonality.
You know, back to our lastseries.
Charles (26:15):
I'm thinking of Mel as the fourth friend on White Lotus
that didn't get invited to goto Thailand, the three women who
, at different points, were allkind of annoying in their own
way.
Oh sure, yeah, I'm imaginingher as the fourth one who didn't
even get there.
Oh my God.
Dan (26:31):
Well, it's because she's a hard worker and she's been
working.
She's a workaholic so they knewshe wouldn't have the time, so
that's why she didn't go.
Charles (26:38):
Yeah, so anyway, sorry, I'm hoping that we can.
The other thing I didn't likewas the seesaw analogy.
Dan (26:45):
Okay.
Charles (26:48):
If you just do let them , then you find yourself up in
the air looking down on yourfriends Right, are looking down
on your friends right and thelet me I get.
The implication is, I guess,with let them plus let me, you
find yourself more in anequilibrium.
But I don't know.
I guess yeah, if you're at thebottom of the seesaw looking up,
(27:09):
as you taking a hundred percentresponsibility for every bad
thing that happens, and ifyou're on the seesaw looking
down, that's you taking 0%.
And so in the middle you're at50-50 or some realistic number,
where this is partly my fault,partly their choice.
I didn't feel like she reallycompleted the circle on that
(27:30):
analogy, to say she only talkedabout being at the top or being
at the bottom, and yourrelationships with other people
are not a zero-sum game wherethere has to be a winner and
there has to be a loser, yeah.
And I didn't feel like shereally addressed the equilibrium
where you can figure out a wayto conduct your relationships
where either one of you is atthe top, yeah, and either one of
(27:52):
you is butt on the ground,right.
There's a way to be in themiddle, and I didn't think she
spent enough time drilling that.
Dan (27:58):
No, we only we're only two chapters in.
Charles (27:59):
Fair enough.
Yeah, give her, give her alittle more time.
I hope she re-isits some ofthese things in a little bit
more detail, but the seesawanalogy did not, just didn't
ring true for me.
Okay, so in chapters thinkthree and four is what we're
going to hit next, and that'swhere we talk a little bit about
the stress you have in yourlife as a result of your need to
(28:21):
control, which, look, I'm.
I'm looking for a book thattells me how I can let go of my
impulse to control everything,because control does real.
Control brings safety, and theillusion of control brings chaos
, because at some point you'regonna be confronted with the
fact that you're not in controlof the things you think they're
in control of.
Dan (28:41):
Yeah.
Charles (28:42):
And how do you deal with that?
Yeah, yeah.
And how do you deal with theshift of?
Okay, these are the things thatI think I'm in control of and
then, boom, surprise, youweren't really this whole time.
You thought you were in control, you weren't in control.
Dan (29:04):
Now, now, what are you gonna do?
And that can be a painfulrealization to experience.
Yeah, yeah, that's, that's uh,I'm interested to.
I forget exactly if she getsinto that.
I'm sure she does, becausethat's a pretty much that's
totally coming up already in ourminds just from the first two
chapters.
Charles (29:16):
MPU's exposure and experience with stoic philosophy
too is, at some point, if youinsist on living this life where
you're trying to control thingsthat are uncontrollable, the
fact that something is inreality not controllable it's
not going to come as a gentlewhisper, it's going to be a
brick that hits you in the head.
Dan (29:36):
It can if, yeah, yeah, if you are clutching onto that
control, right, if you don'trealize it on your own, I think,
I think, right, it's kind of.
It's kind of one of thosethings where, right, like uh,
with mice and men, where lennyis holding the, the bird or
whatever, and then, or when itwas a mouse or a bird mouse,
whatever, yeah, it ends up like,instead of holding it gently,
right, he ends up crushing it,kind of thing, right, same, same
(29:57):
kind of constant for me, andfor me as a control freak and
I'm probably speaking for someother control freaks out there
the subtle little hints that hey, you might not be in control of
this, we just ignore, that, wejust derail right over.
Charles (30:08):
It's only when we're confronted with evidence that we
cannot deny that it says hey,idiot, you thought you were in
control of this.
Surprised you never were.
That's the only time, at leastfor me, that it really hits home
and I realized okay, I was notin control of this.
I've got room for improvementin these areas and I'm hoping
that Mel Robbins shows me somestuff that I-.
Dan (30:27):
Listen, I think we all do.
I think we all go throughphases of being controlling and
trying to control things that wecan't and people that we can't
obviously control.
I mean, I think, I think it'shuman nature, I don't think it's
.
Yeah, it probably, I think,exerts itself in more in some
people than others, right?
I?
I think for me, and I think thereason why this book was so
(30:47):
popular is because everybody hasthose moments where we're just
trying to control what is futileyeah, yeah, I think so too.
Charles (30:54):
Yeah, all right, well, so we will pick up with the next
couple of chapters next week,and I'm looking forward to
seeing how how it feels to keepgoing through it you too all
right, all right, thanks, danwe'll stop it there.
All right, bye-bye.
Okay, that's it for thisepisode of mindfully masculine.
We'll be back next week withchapters three and four of the
let them theory, where melstarts connecting some dots
(31:15):
between control, stress and whatit's actually costing you.
Thanks for listening and we'lltalk to you then.
From the first two chapters of this book.
I don't like her at all what'snot to like.
Well for you.
The first story that she tellsin chapter one ha about
micromanaging her son's promexperience made me insane.
Like what is wrong with thiswoman.
Dan (00:17):
Okay.
Charles (00:18):
Welcome to the Mindfully Masculine Podcast.
This is Charles, and today Danand I are diving into the Let
them Theory by Mel Robbins.
We're starting with chapters 1and 2, where Mel micromanages
her son's prom, gets left out ofa girls' trip and somehow
decides that this all adds up toa self-help book.
I've got thoughts, strong ones.
(00:39):
Dan's here to defend her, or atleast try and we're unpacking
what it really means to let them, without becoming a doormat or
a control freak.
If you've ever been left offthe group text and wondered was
it me?
This episode's for you.
Check out mindfullymaskingcomto find full audio and video
episodes and anything else wegot going on.
(01:01):
Thanks and enjoy.
First episode discussing thelet them carry by mel robbins.
Have you read this whole book?
Okay, I'm not.
Yeah, you know how I frequentlymention that the wise nobody
told me this before is our onlybook where I've not jumped in
with a bunch of criticism.
Uh-huh, it remains alone okay,all right, I'm.
(01:24):
I'm curious to hear.
All right, is this a lot ofthese first two chapters?
Man, I would you describe melrobbins as likable, unlikable or
somewhere in the middle I, Ilike her very much.
Dan (01:39):
she I and I appreciate the way she breaks down concepts and
makes them actionable.
She tells good stories.
She bases a lot of herinformation on people who are
smarter than she is inscientific research, so, but I'm
pretty familiar with a lot ofher work already.
So that's I definitely.
(02:00):
I definitely appreciate her,yeah.
Charles (02:02):
From her interviews I've seen and shorter clips on
YouTube.
I like her from the first twochapters of this book.
I don't like her at all.
Dan (02:12):
What's not to like?
Charles (02:13):
Well, for you the first .
the first story that she tellsin chapter one, hot about
micromanaging her son's promexperience, may be insane, Like
what is wrong with this womanokay so the big thing was she
either picked out or created orbought or something, a corsage
(02:35):
for her son's date, even thoughhe said not to, even though he
said not to, and then when it'stime to, I guess drop him off or
bring him to prom or whatever,even like the night of he again
told her not to.
So she slips it in her purseand brings it with her anyway
just in case just in case, rightyeah.
And springs it onto the girl.
(02:55):
And this isn't his long timegirlfriend, this is a girl he's
just asked to prom, he knows,wow.
And she springs out like oh, Ibrought this just in case.
Dan (03:07):
And the kicker was she had made, the girl had made her own,
yeah, and she was so nice thatshe ended up saying, oh, I'll
wear it anyway, right, and atthat point Mel, mel didn't feel
good about that, if you remember.
She, she recognized.
Okay, she made a mistake there.
Charles (03:23):
Yeah, I mean, you don't get points for feeling bad
about something that people havewarned you not to do and you
did it anyway, right, and thenit has a terrible result and
then you feel bad afterward.
Listen, yeah.
So then fast forward to chaptertwo.
She's telling this story aboutall of her girlfriends get
together and go on this girl'strip and at first she just
(03:46):
notices a friend is on a tripand she's like, oh, that looks
like fun.
And then she starts goingthrough the post and seeing that
a lot of her friends are onthis trip together and she's not
.
Yep, you know.
Then she gets into the.
Well, they want to go on a tripwithout me?
Let them, that's fine, they cando that.
They're allowed to blah, blah,blah.
And then she in the in chaptertwo it's like and then let me,
(04:08):
let me realize that, okay, Ihaven't really kept in touch
with these people, I haven'tinvested in the friendship, so
maybe they didn't even think ofme.
So they didn't think, theydidn't decide to exclude me,
they just didn't.
I didn't occur to them becauseI haven't been investing into my
friendships with them and my myreaction to that is oh, wait a
second, maybe they did think ofyou.
(04:28):
Maybe they didn't want thewoman who insists on bringing
the corsage to her son's cross.
I'll take this on my I get it.
You and a bunch of our mutualfriends got together and said,
boy, it'd be really nice to goon a really chill, relaxing
vacation where we can stay outlate and dance and not have a
(04:49):
bunch of political conversationsand getting into fights about
whether this senator should havedone this or this president
should have done that.
That's going to be a reallychill, relaxing time.
I'm really looking forward toit.
And somebody's like hey, shouldwe invite Charles?
And the reaction was did younot hear me describe the kind of
vacation that I'm looking for?
Dan (05:07):
Yeah right.
Charles (05:09):
No, if we want this kind of vacation, the last
person we want is Charles.
Dan (05:13):
Yeah.
Charles (05:14):
And then I heard about it or I saw a post about it, I'd
be like, yeah, that makes sense.
I get where they're coming from, but from where I'm at in this
book, so far she has not doneany of the connecting of the
(05:37):
dots to say, okay, maybe the wayI show up to my friendships or
my son's prom is the reason thatmy friends decide let's not
invite Mel if we want to have agood time.
Mm-hmm, yeah yeah.
Those two stories together.
So far she has not taken anyownership of the way I show up
to my relationships.
Might be the reason peopledon't invite me on group trips.
Dan (05:51):
And you left out the other part of the problem, when her
son had just bought brand newsneakers and wanted to go to.
Charles (06:01):
So it was radio Years of the tuxedo.
I hate the sun now too Right,well, oakley.
I hate the sun now too Right,well, oakley.
This game is Oakley.
Dan (06:07):
Okay.
So, as he's known by Mel inthis part, he wanted to go to
also this really popular tacoplace where there's not a lot of
people.
They didn't make anyreservations.
They didn't make anyreservations and there's like 20
of them.
Like all these kids are likeputting them.
He says they have it's a tacostand with like four tables
right and and it's raining outand she's just like here
(06:28):
grabbing, she's trying to givethem umbrellas, she's trying to
help.
All the parents are allfreaking out and she's like we
need to make reservations forthem at a real place where
they've got plenty of room andher daughter, kendall, goes let
them.
It's not your prom mom, it's'stheirs.
Let them do that.
So she finally let go.
That was the whole inspirationof the book.
She finally let go and it'slike all right, you're right,
(06:51):
I'll let them do that.
I'll let her ruin her shoes,I'll let them get soaked in the
rain, I'll let them wait outsideand not get food.
She like let go.
And that was the whole purposeof writing this book.
Was that's the lesson shelearned.
She ended up giving him 40bucks and said have a good time.
He lit up, they had a good time, he ruined his shoes and she
was okay with it.
So that was really an importantlesson for her to learn at that
(07:14):
point.
So I think you'll, you'll,you'll, I'm not going to plant
anything, or too late, I guess,but I, I think, I think you'll
realize that she does realizethe errors of her ways.
Charles (07:28):
Yeah, yeah, but I mean what look?
I mean, I'm not.
I'll be doing a podcast, so Idon't get to be on this book at
the beginning but, I think otherpeople I think you do, because
it's your podcast.
If you want to do, you could.
I think other people may maysee the way that she is
addressing some of these thingsand like look, if, if you find
out that your friends have justgone on a vacation and they
(07:51):
invite you to go along with them, you have a few choices for how
you can react to that.
You get the act of that bysaying, okay, I'm a huge piece
of shit, everybody hates me,that's why they didn't invite me
.
Boohoo, I'm the worst, yadayada.
You could do that.
Or you could say, oh, thisdoesn't affect me at all, they
choose to have a vacationwithout me that has zero percent
(08:13):
to do with me.
That has nothing to do with mewhatsoever.
That's their choice and that'scompletely fine.
They can do that if they wantto.
It doesn't matter to me, yeah.
Or you can be somewhere in themiddle that says, okay, yes,
they're allowed to go on avacation without me.
That doesn't make them badpeople.
That doesn't make me a badperson.
However, what about?
The way I show up to?
(08:33):
These friendships may lead themto make the decision of?
This might be more fun or justeasier.
If we don't ask her and itdoesn't seem like she that's a
possibility she's onlyreferenced the two extremes so
far in chapters one and two ofeither I go into a shame spiral
because they didn't invite mealong, or they didn't invite me
(08:54):
along has nothing to do with me.
That's just a decision theymade.
Where it seems like truth livesin the gray area in the middle,
which is, yeah, they're allowedto not invite you along, but
the decision to not invite youcould have a lot to do with the
way you chose.
You choose to show up like theway you choose to micromanage
your son's products.
Dan (09:15):
Right, right, so have there been.
I mean, I know, when I wasyounger there were a lot of
moments where I could, if Icould go back, I would have told
myself, let them do that that'sokay.
Any anything come to mind foryou where you would have wanted
to go back and go, hey goodquestion.
Charles (09:34):
Yes, I yeah, I think so I think, I think there have
been some situations like that,and I'm not saying there's not
value to be had in this book.
I'm sure that there is, and I'msure that I'm going to stumble
upon things that I really doappreciate and I can get some
good stuff out of and that wecan then pass along to our
audience.
However, one of the otherthings that bother me is she
(09:58):
talks about discovering this.
Let them e.
Dan (10:03):
Okay.
Charles (10:04):
Yeah, either give me the name of the person you got
it from or admit that you madeit up.
You didn't discover this.
Let them theory.
Dan (10:11):
Well, I think what she claims was it came to her when
her daughter, kendall, told herabout the son and his prom.
Let them like, let them fuck uptheir shoes, let them go in the
rain, let them starve and waitonline at the taco place.
That's, that was.
That was what she's claiming asthe discovery.
Charles (10:33):
So yeah, there's somebody else out there who's
claiming that she stole thisidea from them.
Oh really, yeah who is?
That it's a poet, a real poem.
All about a poem called I, Ithink, called Letna, about
letting people make their owndecisions, their own choices.
Dan (10:47):
I mean.
Charles (10:48):
I mean listen, yeah, I mean, with the way the
publishing industry works again,I'm not saying there's not good
stuff in here, yeah, this feelsto me like somebody came up
with a title that could sellsome books and now, all right,
we got the title that's going towork, we've got the title
that's going to move products,so now let's write the book
(11:08):
around it.
And I think that's what she did, because it started as like a
social media post and I thinkher, or somebody that works for
her or with her, decided okay,this is a cash cow, now it's
time to milk it, I mean.
Dan (11:24):
But there's good value in it.
There's good stuff.
I definitely got a lot ofreally good stuff out of it A
lot of practical ways to thinkabout situations where you're
feeling left out, when you'refeeling that something is out of
your control, and you don'tlike it.
So I know, for me personally, Ihave tried to control other
(11:46):
people and other things a lot inmy life, like specifically,
probably around eating, likewith my family, I've basically.
But I know where that comesfrom and it comes from me.
I want the best for them, Iwant them to be healthy.
For me it's most it's probablyan overreaction because I'm
being a type.
I'm being a type one diabetic.
Things affect me a lot morethan an average person who grows
(12:08):
not right.
So I have that built in me andit was also imposed on me and
thankfully in a very strong wayfrom my family and my doctors
when I was really young so thatI could be as healthy as
possible, and it was in the veinof caring and so I kind of
picked up that trait.
And as an adult, I've definitelyoverstepped my bounds at times
(12:32):
with my family and other peoplesometimes where I've probably
tried to control what they'reeating and in terms of made them
feel bad about certain thingsor giving them information they
didn't ask for Right, made themfeel bad about certain things or
given them information theydidn't ask for Right.
So for me, I really could haveused the let them theory back
then and when I was doing thatmore often, to just let them let
(12:55):
.
Let them, let them make thosechoices, let them eat.
For me, a lot of this is Itranslate this into letting
other people stop trying tocontrol their people and and let
them make the choices that theywant to make Right, unless
they're going to hurt themselvesor somebody else.
I think it's a good way to goabout it.
Charles (13:14):
Yeah, but that's where it gets kind of tricky, because
it's very easy for you to tellyourself the story of I have to
intervene because they are goingthere.
Dan (13:22):
And that's exactly what I was saying oh my God, you can't
eat all that candy, you're goingto be killing yourself, kind of
thing.
I mean, being a type 1 diabeticis survival, but they're not.
Right but they're not SurvivalRight, but that's an excuse
because they are not Right.
And even if I eat all thatcandy, that's not going to kill
me.
It's not good for me.
It's not going to kill me.
For me it's like my blood sugarwas too low.
(13:43):
It goes too high.
Nobody dies from too high of ablood sugar Over time.
It's a slow death, but you knowso.
For me a lot of this came intoyeah, stop trying to control the
uncontrollable, which is otherpeople right, and that's I mean.
Charles (14:00):
That is the recipe for a miserable life, right?
If you all it, if you spend allyour time trying to control
things that cannot be controlledit's like banging your head
against the wall.
Dan (14:11):
I mean, come on, yeah, bang your head against the wall.
Charles (14:12):
I mean, come on, yeah, banging your head against the
wall or just digging a hole inyour yard and then filling it up
, and then digging the hole andthen filling it up, it might do.
Just you're doing it, you neednothing done, and you're
spending all this time andeffort on no result to show for
it.
And so, yeah, and that's not.
That's certainly not a conceptshe, she's discovered.
I mean buddhism, stoicism.
(14:32):
There's, there's plenty of ismsthat have come upon this idea
of yeah, if you, if you investall your time in trying to
manage the unmanageable, thenyou're, you're going to just be
miserable constantly.
And yeah, there there is.
There is value in saying peopleare going to do what people are
(14:52):
going to do, and it's not myjob to prevent them or control
it or even guide them or helpthem.
It's, it's our job to givepeople the dignity of their own
choices, and then we can decidewhich people we want in our
lives, based on those freechoices that they're allowed to
(15:12):
make yeah, I know, I mean, Imean, I know.
Dan (15:15):
A lot of times my I've shown when I care about somebody
through trying to control them.
Charles (15:22):
Yeah, Right, yeah, yeah .
Dan (15:24):
And and that's not like oh.
I know what's best kind ofthing, and it's like, even if
you do or even if you've beenproven right, it's, it's just
not the method to go abouthelping somebody or showing
their care for them.
Charles (15:38):
So I, yeah, that's.
I mean it's.
It's a difficult position to bein when, especially when you
see somebody making choices likeyou know oh, I've been in your
position, I've made the wrongchoice you were about to make.
It's over the consequences,I've enjoyed the benefits of
making the right choice whereyou are right now and now I'm
just going to stay quiet andwatch and see what you do.
(16:01):
That is a difficult position tobe in, yeah.
Dan (16:03):
Well, I think I don't know if it was you or somebody else,
I heard that from which was agood way to approach, that is,
to just offer them thesuggestion that, hey, I've I've
experienced something similarbefore, and just kind of put
that out there and see if theybite and say, oh, okay, well,
what did you do, right?
Allow them then to say, oh, Ido want advice, like or no, I
(16:30):
don't need it, I'm good, right,yeah.
Charles (16:32):
And I mean.
The problem with that that I'veexperienced too, is have you,
if you set your entirerelationship with someone
conditioning them so that whenyou ask them if they want your
advice, they feel like they haveno choice but to say yes and
yeah, if you're not reallygiving them the choice that it
feels like you're giving, yeah?
Dan (16:50):
Yeah, I think a lot of that has to do also no-transcript,
(17:21):
but to sit down and eat, yeah,and it's still their choice.
But it's still their choice.
I mean, I mean you, yeah, butyou, you're right, you may have
trained them is better.
Charles (17:31):
The first in the first way, of just telling them what
to do, whether they want to hearit or not.
Yeah, but it's still notoptimal.
So, all right, let's pause fora second.
I got to pee.
Dan (17:39):
Oh yeah, all right, no problem.
Charles (17:43):
Yeah.
So the thing I wanted to see alittle bit more, or hear more
from her and I hope I do in thein the rest of the book is
whenever you're in acircumstance where someone is
giving you treatment that youfind uncomfortable or
undesirable.
I think that healthy andeffective people do ask the
(18:06):
question of okay, how have Icontributed?
Or, to use the recent now, howhave I set the table for the
easiest choice they could maketo be Let me exclude Charles or
let me work.
Charles isn't, let me notinvite Charles because because
(18:27):
of how, how he is or how he isshowing up and again, I don't
think this I don't think thesolution is to ruminate on that
or to obsess over it or to feelterrible about yourself.
Yeah, you know, if you do getghosted, if you do get broken up
with, if your friends go on atrip without inviting you, there
is a portion of that again thatI think healthy, effective
(18:48):
people do, where they say, okay,this thing's a little bit, yeah
, what might I have done, whatpart might I have played in this
result that I'm feelinguncomfortable about?
Yeah, and so far, like I said,she seemed to in the first two
chapters at least, she's hit theextremes of either going into a
(19:09):
shame spiral.
I'm a terrible person, I'm apiece of shit.
That's why they did that.
That's why they treated me thisway to oh, they won't treat me
that way they can treat.
That's why they treated me thisway to oh, they won't treat me
that way.
They can treat me that way.
That's fine.
That's up to them.
They can just do that.
It has to do with them.
It doesn't have to do with me.
Where I want to see an approachin the middle where you're
taking some accountability andsome responsibility for, yeah,
this situation.
That's not reality.
Dan (19:55):
There is some sort of most, there is most likely some part
of some part of this that youdid contribute to, and you need
to at least recognize it andrealize what that is and not
just kind of put your head inthe sand Cause a lot of times,
like when I first read let them,I thought, oh, it's fuck them,
right Like.
I thought, oh, it's me Fuckthem, right, like, like, right,
(20:16):
like, like all right, all right.
And so that was my firstreaction when I heard that.
And then I speak of a book witha tie down the title of the
book.
Here we go.
So and she does start to touchon that Is that there is
something else that's neededbecause, yeah, it can lead you
to a feeling of superiority andalso isolation.
(20:36):
So, basically, you forget ifyou're telling them, oh well,
let them go ahead, let them, letthem it.
And at times throughout lifewhen I've done that, yeah, it's,
it's made me feel good in themoment, because I'm able to then
feel like release that anxietyand that like from from blaming
(20:56):
myself to blaming somebody else,and that always feels good, you
know, and but, but it doesn'tlast very long because you're
like, well, I'm still not, likeI'm still upset about the
situation.
Like longer term it doesn'tresolve anything.
Charles (21:08):
Yes, in fact, I thought of an example of this.
And get a little political here.
If you do the let them, withoutthe let me, the only people
left in your life are going tobe, yes, men and sycophants.
Dan (21:21):
Mm-hmm yeah.
Charles (21:24):
I think we can see that in some examples in our own
government.
Yeah For sure, If your attitudeis, I am never going to admit
to not knowing something.
I'm never going to admit tomeeting experts who understand
things I don't understand.
To fill me in, I'm just goingto say this is the line and you
pair it the party line, or elseyou're out of here.
(21:45):
And then all of a sudden, anyof the experts who might
disagree with you, they worktheir way out of your inner
circle and all you getsurrounding you are people that
agree with you and tell you whatyou want to hear.
It surrounding you are peoplethat agree with you and tell you
what you want to hear, and Iwould almost argue that being
surrounded by people like thatis more lonely than just being
alone well, see, here's thething.
Dan (22:05):
It's like social media, does that?
Too, but all, but the socialmedia does that too.
It feeds you what you'reinterested in and and to support
you whatever.
Charles (22:13):
So, if anything, and that could be why so many people
who are obsessed with socialmedia feel so bad about
themselves all the time becausemaybe you bring all the years of
a quick fix right.
Dan (22:22):
It's a quick, it's a quick dopamine hit, but it's like
long-term it's not going tobuild, I feel, a level of
fulfillment.
Charles (22:29):
So the let me part, which she didn't really she
spent more time on let them inthe first chapter than she did
on let me in the second chapteryeah, and so I'm anxious to hear
more about the let me theoryand exactly what that means to
her and how she structures it.
Yeah, I feel like and I'veexperienced the end of
(22:51):
relationships before where I'vetaken the approach of this is a
hundred percent my fault and soI feel terrible about it, and
the other side of this is ahundred percent their fault, so
I feel cold and dead about it.
Right, and neither one of thoseis a reflection of reality, and
so neither one of those givesyou the opportunity to feel like
(23:12):
, okay, this is hard, but I'vemoved forward.
Yeah, to feel like, okay, thisis hard, but I've moved forward,
like you don't get that feelingfrom either of those approaches
of either it's all their faultor it's all my fault.
The only way that you can lookat it and and build upon your
own health and your ownwellbeing is to say, okay, this
person and I built thisrelationship that eventually
failed together and we bothplayed a role in making it into
(23:35):
something that was notsustainable.
I gotta learn about the partsthat I brought to this
relationship that didn't help it, hurt it instead.
I've got to learn about thethings that I was attracted to
in this other person that theybrought that turned out to be
not sustainable as well, andthen I can move forward and hope
to build on this foundation formy next relationship.
But if you take an all ornothing approach to your
(23:57):
personal responsibility, oh well, yeah, I mean whether that's
getting fired from a job,whether it's getting broke up,
whatever it is.
If you take on the, either itwas all my fault or this had
nothing to do with me.
Neither of them were based inreality, Correct Absolutely, and
so you're not going to be ableto build on that to have
anything valuable in the futureno, because you're going to be
building off of a false pretense, if anything, if you're going
(24:19):
to build at all from thatexactly.
You're on a shaky foundation,and so that that was my only
concern and again, I'm open tothe possibility this is all
stuff that I'm bringing intothis book.
That she's not saying, but itdid feel like the.
The way she talked herself outof feeling bad about her friends
going on the trip.
I mean she immediately went towell, it's because I'm a
(24:41):
workaholic, and the whole.
I don't have the things in lifebecause I'm a workaholic is a
little bit of a humble brag.
You're better about yourself,it's not.
I don't have the friendshipsthat I want because I'm a shitty
friend and I'm annoying topeople.
Like I can't set aside theseawkward tendencies that make
(25:06):
people uncomfortable.
It's a lot easier to say it'sbecause I'm working, I take my
career too seriously.
You know what I mean if youhave to make an excuse like I
have good friends, I work toohard and I value my career too
much, or I spend too much timefocusing on my family, so I
neglect my friendships.
So like, all right, these aregood ways to get yourself out of
feeling a little bit ofpressure.
Dan (25:27):
So, if you remember she does talk about these people
were friends where she wasprobably in full annoyance mode,
like when she was younger,because she said, I knew them
from, we raised our kidstogether, we had gone on, we
spent weekends together, we hadgone on double dates with our
partners together, things likethat.
Right, so that was even beforeshe discovered the let them
(25:48):
theory.
So she was probably in her fullcontrolling crazy mode and they
were still friends with her atthat point.
Okay, so I think she might beright in terms of just, she
hasn't put her time and effortinto the friendship.
They already knew how annoyingshe was, according to you
According to you, that's how I'mthinking it anyways Because
(26:09):
they full well know herpersonality.
You know, back to our lastseries.
Charles (26:15):
I'm thinking of Mel as the fourth friend on White Lotus
that didn't get invited to goto Thailand, the three women who
, at different points, were allkind of annoying in their own
way.
Oh sure, yeah, I'm imaginingher as the fourth one who didn't
even get there.
Oh my God.
Dan (26:31):
Well, it's because she's a hard worker and she's been
working.
She's a workaholic so they knewshe wouldn't have the time, so
that's why she didn't go.
Charles (26:38):
Yeah, so anyway, sorry, I'm hoping that we can.
The other thing I didn't likewas the seesaw analogy.
Dan (26:45):
Okay.
Charles (26:48):
If you just do let them , then you find yourself up in
the air looking down on yourfriends Right, are looking down
on your friends right and thelet me I get.
The implication is, I guess,with let them plus let me, you
find yourself more in anequilibrium.
But I don't know.
I guess yeah, if you're at thebottom of the seesaw looking up,
(27:09):
as you taking a hundred percentresponsibility for every bad
thing that happens, and ifyou're on the seesaw looking
down, that's you taking 0%.
And so in the middle you're at50-50 or some realistic number,
where this is partly my fault,partly their choice.
I didn't feel like she reallycompleted the circle on that
(27:30):
analogy, to say she only talkedabout being at the top or being
at the bottom, and yourrelationships with other people
are not a zero-sum game wherethere has to be a winner and
there has to be a loser, yeah.
And I didn't feel like shereally addressed the equilibrium
where you can figure out a wayto conduct your relationships
where either one of you is atthe top, yeah, and either one of
(27:52):
you is butt on the ground,right.
There's a way to be in themiddle, and I didn't think she
spent enough time drilling that.
Dan (27:58):
No, we only we're only two chapters in.
Charles (27:59):
Fair enough.
Yeah, give her, give her alittle more time.
I hope she re-isits some ofthese things in a little bit
more detail, but the seesawanalogy did not, just didn't
ring true for me.
Okay, so in chapters thinkthree and four is what we're
going to hit next, and that'swhere we talk a little bit about
the stress you have in yourlife as a result of your need to
(28:21):
control, which, look, I'm.
I'm looking for a book thattells me how I can let go of my
impulse to control everything,because control does real.
Control brings safety, and theillusion of control brings chaos
, because at some point you'regonna be confronted with the
fact that you're not in controlof the things you think they're
in control of.
Dan (28:41):
Yeah.
Charles (28:42):
And how do you deal with that?
Yeah, yeah.
And how do you deal with theshift of?
Okay, these are the things thatI think I'm in control of and
then, boom, surprise, youweren't really this whole time.
You thought you were in control, you weren't in control.
Dan (29:04):
Now, now, what are you gonna do?
And that can be a painfulrealization to experience.
Yeah, yeah, that's, that's uh,I'm interested to.
I forget exactly if she getsinto that.
I'm sure she does, becausethat's a pretty much that's
totally coming up already in ourminds just from the first two
chapters.
Charles (29:16):
MPU's exposure and experience with stoic philosophy
too is, at some point, if youinsist on living this life where
you're trying to control thingsthat are uncontrollable, the
fact that something is inreality not controllable it's
not going to come as a gentlewhisper, it's going to be a
brick that hits you in the head.
Dan (29:36):
It can if, yeah, yeah, if you are clutching onto that
control, right, if you don'trealize it on your own, I think,
I think, right, it's kind of.
It's kind of one of thosethings where, right, like uh,
with mice and men, where lennyis holding the, the bird or
whatever, and then, or when itwas a mouse or a bird mouse,
whatever, yeah, it ends up like,instead of holding it gently,
right, he ends up crushing it,kind of thing, right, same, same
(29:57):
kind of constant for me, andfor me as a control freak and
I'm probably speaking for someother control freaks out there
the subtle little hints that hey, you might not be in control of
this, we just ignore, that, wejust derail right over.
Charles (30:08):
It's only when we're confronted with evidence that we
cannot deny that it says hey,idiot, you thought you were in
control of this.
Surprised you never were.
That's the only time, at leastfor me, that it really hits home
and I realized okay, I was notin control of this.
I've got room for improvementin these areas and I'm hoping
that Mel Robbins shows me somestuff that I-.
Dan (30:27):
Listen, I think we all do.
I think we all go throughphases of being controlling and
trying to control things that wecan't and people that we can't
obviously control.
I mean, I think, I think it'shuman nature, I don't think it's
.
Yeah, it probably, I think,exerts itself in more in some
people than others, right?
I?
I think for me, and I think thereason why this book was so
(30:47):
popular is because everybody hasthose moments where we're just
trying to control what is futileyeah, yeah, I think so too.
Charles (30:54):
Yeah, all right, well, so we will pick up with the next
couple of chapters next week,and I'm looking forward to
seeing how how it feels to keepgoing through it you too all
right, all right, thanks, danwe'll stop it there.
All right, bye-bye.
Okay, that's it for thisepisode of mindfully masculine.
We'll be back next week withchapters three and four of the
let them theory, where melstarts connecting some dots
(31:15):
between control, stress and whatit's actually costing you.
Thanks for listening and we'lltalk to you then.
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