July 28, 2025 • 38 mins
Why do grown-ups still throw tantrums? And why does doing the right thing sometimes feel awful?
In this episode, Charles and Dan dive into Chapters 7 and 8 of The Let Them Theory—where emotional maturity meets real-life discomfort. We unpack how adults act like kids (just with more email silence and fewer juice boxes), how to hold your ground when someone else is spiraling, and why making the right move often feels like the wrong one—especially when it shakes the whole “family web.”
Also in this episode:
- How to spot emotional regression in the wild
- Letting others ride their emotional waves (without jumping in)
- The myth of the “perfect” breakup or resignation
- Why 90 seconds of discomfort beats years of quiet resentment
- And the timeless wisdom of not having hard conversations after tequila
This one’s for anyone who’s tired of managing reactions and ready to start honoring their own values.
🎧 Watch or listen to every episode at mindfullymasculine.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Charles (00:00):
A good idea is to go into any emotionally charged
conversation with any adult andkind of expect them to act like
a child, and I think that's avaluable way to frame like
anytime you're going into atough conversation with anybody,
whether it's a work colleagueor a supervisor or your romantic
partner, whoever just kind ofbe on the lookout for.
(00:22):
What I'm probably going to seein this conversation is some
childlike behavior, because, ifthey're like me, they didn't
learn all the things as a kidthat they needed to learn to
regulate their emotions.
So some of that's about tobleed out because we're going to
have a tough conversation.
Welcome to the MindfullyMasculine Podcast.
This is Charles.
In this episode, dan and Iunpack two powerful chapters
(00:45):
from the let them theory Oneabout recognizing adult tantrums
for what they really are andthe other about making the hard
choice even when it feelsterrible.
We talk about how emotionalimmaturity shows up in everyday
relationships, why staying calmtakes more than willpower, and
how to hold your ground when theright move hurts, whether
you're trying to avoid a blow upat work or wrestling with a big
(01:06):
decision in your personal life.
This one's packed with insightand more than a few stories from
our own emotional missteps.
Let's go.
Dan (01:13):
Good morning Charles.
Charles (01:15):
Hello Dan, how are you?
Dan (01:16):
I'm doing well.
Thanks A little bit of a crazy.
Charles (01:20):
I say thanks.
Dan (01:21):
How about you?
Let's rewind?
I say thanks.
How about you?
Let's rewind?
How are you Spectacular?
I guess that would be theproper, polite thing for me to
ask.
Is it's not all about me?
I should ask about you too,right?
Charles (01:29):
I'm okay, thank you.
It's been a crazy week.
My cat's been sick, so theemotional and financial toll of
a sick cat has been wreakinghavoc with my life.
But I think we're on to coverchapter seven and eight on the
let them theory and I am happyto say chapter seven was kind of
a turning point with me on thisbook oh, yeah, I really liked
(01:50):
it.
Okay, what was your favoritepart?
So the four parts chapter title.
Shall I say chapter title iswhen grown-ups throw tantrums,
and I love throwing tantrumsthat's what.
Dan (02:00):
That was my favorite part too, I.
Charles (02:02):
It is interesting how she talks about, like what the
adult equivalent to tempertantrums.
That's what that was.
My favorite part too, I it isinteresting how she talks about
like what the adult equivalentto temper tantrums are yeah with
a kid.
That was insightful for heractual temper.
Tantrums with an adult is likewe usually do it in more passive
, aggressive ways.
Yeah, they're tantrumsnonetheless.
But number one, I liked how shereally owned up to her own
emotional immaturity and theeffect that it's had on her life
(02:23):
and the effect that it had onher kids lives.
Yeah, because it takes a prettybig person to admit hey, my
kids are in therapy because Ifucked up I know that's what you
were criticizing.
Dan (02:32):
Therefore, all up to this point, you're like does she
realize, like who she is, likehow she's coming across?
And she absolutely does so, andit seemed like it from this
chapter she definitely does getit.
Charles (02:42):
And the biggest thing that was kind of reinforced for
me that I kind of already got ona conceptual basis, but I liked
the way that she said it and itdid resonate with me.
A good idea is to go into anyemotionally charged conversation
with any adult and kind ofexpect them to act like a child,
and I think that's a valuableway to frame like anytime you're
(03:05):
going into a tough conversationwith anybody, whether it's a
work colleague or a supervisoror your romantic partner,
whoever just kind of be on thelookout for.
What I'm probably going to seein this conversation is some
childlike behavior, because ifthey're like me, they didn't
learn all the things as a kidthat they needed to learn to
regulate their emotions, yeah.
(03:25):
So some of that's about tobleed out because we're going to
have a tough conversation, yeah.
Or being completely stoic withyou and cold yeah, and you don't
want to communicate In my notesis that when a child will
physically run away from you ifyou're telling them something
they don't want to hear an adultwill just kind of shut down and
avoid confrontation and eitherthe silent treatment or just
(03:48):
sort of detach from thesituation, some form of avoid,
don't wall, check out, whateveryou want to call it.
Yeah, and so instead ofphysically running away which
would be funny to see a coworkeractually run away from you when
you're trying to have adifficult conversation they'll
just kind of shut down and giveone word answers.
Dan (04:05):
Or in my case, in reality I'm dealing with right now is
not responding with an email.
Charles (04:09):
Right.
Dan (04:10):
Right and just not hearing anything back and it's and they
clearly made the mistake andthey're not owning up to it, but
one's kind of suffering becauseof it, unfortunately, yeah.
Charles (04:19):
And so how does one handle that?
It's like, do you do you dowhat feels like chasing them
down to get an answer?
Do you bend over backwards tomake them comfortable?
Or do you just say, okay, ifyou're not ready to talk about
it now, then I'll wait.
But yeah business relationship.
Dan (04:33):
That gets tough because, especially when you're waiting
for them to sign a checksomething I really picked up
from this chapter that I thoughtwas insightful was a kid
melting down when they don't getwhat they want is actually a
normal reaction and we shouldnot be suppressing that in in
some way.
Right, we should be.
We shouldn't be reactingnegatively to it, we shouldn't
(04:54):
be encouraging it, but allowingit to happen and letting them
know hey, it's okay, but this ishow we deal with things.
We're not always going to getwhat we want, and I understand
you're upset.
Leave it at that and not try tochange the emotions, because if
they don't know how to processthem or learn how to process
them, like she's talking aboutwhen we were kids, we're not
(05:15):
spending much time working onthat as adults.
And now we're alleight-year-old emotional kids in
adult bodies.
Charles (05:22):
Yeah, and I would say that I mean looking back I see
that in my own childhood and inthe childhoods of my friends,
where, for the most part, Ididn't really see this modeled
the right way at all, it waseither parents who constantly
coddled their kids, parents whoconstantly denied their kids'
feelings, or, in my case, I feellike my parents went back and
(05:45):
forth between denying myfeelings and modeling me okay,
and I never knew which reactionI was going to get.
But it was never justacknowledging my feelings and
sitting with me in my feelingsand my parents being the steady
ones so that I could feel like Ihad the space to confront those
(06:06):
feelings and live through myfeelings.
It was always either they'rethere, it's OK, you don't need
to feel this way, or you're fine.
This is nothing to be upsetabout and just wildly swinging
between the two of them.
Dan (06:18):
And she makes a great point is our parents weren't taught
that as children either.
So now our outbursts aschildren were probably causing
them to feel emotions theycouldn't handle or get to a
point very quickly that theycouldn't handle, and so then
they're not operating as theirbest selves and they're not
making good decisions either,and so they're not able to
(06:40):
absorb and handle the situationand us.
So, yeah, they're basicallyoperating with their
eight-year-old children brainstrying to handle our
eight-year-old emotionaloutbursts, and that's.
Charles (06:55):
Yeah, not a recipe for.
Dan (06:56):
That's like Lord of the.
Charles (06:56):
Flies action going over .
Exactly.
It's not a recipe for successby any means.
Yeah, and I like her point that, listen, when bad stuff happens
to you, you're supposed to getsad or angry about it.
Or when sad stuff happens toyou, you're supposed to get sad
or angry.
That's the designed reaction.
And when you try to get someonetries to talk you out of that
(07:17):
reaction, that only delays it,puts it off and increases the
chance that you're going to dealwith it in an unhealthy way,
where it's like, yeah, whenshitty, chance that you're going
to deal with it in an unhealthyway, where it's like, yeah,
when shitty stuff happens,you're supposed to be upset
about it.
That's the way that it'ssupposed to work and you can't
really you can't help that.
You can't stop it, you can'tinterrupt it, you can't control
(07:37):
what happens to you and youcan't control your immediate
emotional reaction to it.
All you can control is what youdo with it and how you act it
out yeah.
Dan (07:46):
so that's how she ties it back to the whole principle of
the let them theory is she sayslet them react, let them be
quiet and ignore you, let themnot engage with you, hold your
boundary, don't solve theirstorm, and so that's you letting
them react and you, it's.
Charles (08:06):
the let me part is let me hold my own boundaries, let
me give them that space regularbasis, fairly unfruitful
conversations, or you're seeingsomeone in your life like a
parent, a child, a romanticpartner, a close friend,
(08:34):
constantly showing up to thesedifficult conversations or just
showing up to life and actinglike a kid.
One thing you can do again ifyou're close to them, close
enough to them, there's a goodchance you might have some old
pictures of them when they werechildren.
Oh yeah, I like that.
Try to use that, not in acondescending way or not in a
way to make you feel superior tothem, but just look at them as
(08:58):
a kid and even do this withyourself.
Look at yourself as a kid andrealize, okay, this version of
me or them didn't learn thethings that they needed to learn
to deal with moments like thisthat are occurring 20, 30, 40
years later.
Yeah, and so I'm gonna try tohave some empathy and some
compassion for that kid that'strying to deal with this the
(09:19):
best way.
Dan (09:20):
They know how still locked inside that grown-up body yeah,
and I like what you just saidwas think of yourself as that
kid too, because then you give alittle self compassion for the
emotions that are going to comeup for you as well and don't
suppress them either, but try todon't let them just go freaking
crazy.
But at the same point, if Ithink of myself as that child,
(09:43):
that eight year old dealing withand remembering how I dealt
with things when I was eightyears old, it's really going to
give me some space to allowthose feelings to be there and
also kind of put this blanketover it, like this is not the
correct reaction or youshouldn't be expressing these
thoughts that are coming up fromthese crazy emotions that
(10:06):
you're having right now.
Give yourself a chance.
So question for you what'seasier for you, or I should say,
what's harder for you stayingcalm when somebody else's
emotional reaction is aimed atyou, or handling your own
emotional reaction to things?
Charles (10:22):
Ooh, good question.
I guess it a lot of it's goingto be context dependent who it
is, what the what, the situation, what the subject is.
I would say, in most cases,controlling what's coming up
inside of me is going to be themore difficult thing, but
controlling my reaction, what'scoming from them, yeah.
But you know, I can think backto situations with with former
(10:42):
partners where they would cometo me with an issue or a concern
and they would clearly come tome as a rational, reasonable
adult, but I would immediatelyturn into that eight-year-old
kid and then I would say or dosomething in response to that,
would transform them into theeight-year-old kid.
And then you got twoeight-year-old kids arguing with
(11:03):
each other, trying to solve agrown-up problem or a grown-up
situation, and that's a good wayof putting it.
Dan (11:09):
I that's absolutely.
Charles (11:11):
Same things happen to me absolutely, and I've been on
both sides of that, where I'veapproached the situation, quote,
unquote the right way, as anadult, and immediately they
reacted to it like a child,which then caused my inner child
to decide oh okay, we're're twokids in a in an argument right
now, and all the stuff, all theintention I brought into the
conversation initially to hey,let's confront this issue in a
(11:31):
positive and healthy way, justgoes out the window and it's
just two kids fight with eachother.
Dan (11:36):
Yeah, yeah.
Charles (11:37):
And yeah, it's so hard to notice that in the moment at
least it has been for me in thepast like, oh, this, the whole
tone of this just changed.
And now I'm fighting with thisother person based on my
incomplete knowledge of copingand regulation skills that I
came out of my childhood with.
Yeah, and now and if that's notbad enough, I'm also bringing
(11:57):
you down to my level is part ofit too.
And then, because if in somecases, one person can stay away
from that, one person can say,no, I'm going to, I'm going to
maintain the mature frame andframing of this issue, and then
I'm not going to, I'm going torespect what you're going
through, but I'm not going tocome down to your level.
And that is one way that youknow situations like this can be
(12:20):
avoided.
But otherwise it's just goingto escalate.
And yeah you know that eightyear old turns into a seven year
old, and then the other oneturns into a six year old, and
it's really difficult to stay inthat position.
Dan (12:31):
You really need to, I think , constantly remind yourself hey
look, we're.
There's going to be emotionshere on both sides.
I want to be sensitive.
I'm going to try to not usesome hot button words or
triggers, which sometimes it'sjust it's an accident.
You don't even realize what Imean, especially as you're
getting no some money in arelationship.
(12:52):
You really don't know whattheir hot button issues are,
sometimes until the eight yearold kid is out and about already
and he's crying and screaming.
So, yeah, yeah, it's, it'sreasonable.
I think so many people haveproblems with our with
relationships.
Charles (13:07):
Yeah, cause we're just not like I said it's either.
I feel most parents make themistake of going either too far
on the coddling side or too faron the denying side, and you
just don't get a lot of parentsthat find the appropriate
reaction to their kids' feelingsof okay, I can, you're having
some big feelings and I cantolerate that because I'm an
adult and I've learned how toregulate my own emotions.
(13:28):
So yeah, now I can give yousome support in regulating yours
yeah and she does make thepoint that it is.
It's the job of the adult in theparent-child relationship to
help their kid manage theiremotions and to learn those
skills.
You don't get to just say letthem to, oh, my kid's spinning
out of control, so good luck.
Yeah, it's like no, you have aresponsibility to help correct
(13:49):
through that, yes, where youdon't treat your adult
relationships and your child aswell.
So, and that comes back, tosomething we learned in A Man's
Guide to Women by the Gottmans,which is learn to listen to your
body and trust your body.
(14:10):
And when your pulse gets over100, you need to be able to
recognize that and recognizethat you are not in the place
you need to be able to deal withany kind of a difficult
emotional issue.
Dan (14:21):
Yeah, and a lot of times we can be in that altered physical
state before we even have theargument from not sleeping well,
not eating well, some sort ofphysical, not even an ailment,
really, it's just day-to-daylife, like oh, I forgot to eat,
or or I just really used yourmeal.
Charles (14:36):
Now I'm falling asleep.
She mentions the big three ofalcohol, stress and hunger.
And if she's dealing with anyof these more complex
interpersonal situations whileshe's had a couple of drinks or
she's stressed or she's hungry,she's like, yeah, it's going to
go worse than it would have if Iwasn't also dealing with those
things.
Dan (14:52):
Yeah, take care of yourself first, right, sober up, have a
meal, go for a walk, whateverthat is, before you make any big
decisions or need to challengeyourself by handling a difficult
conversation where emotions aregoing to pop up, like really
sometimes.
It's like we're so busy thesedays we just want to get it done
, get it off our plate andaddress it sooner rather than
(15:14):
later.
Every time I've done that, it'snever come out as good as being
in the right state of mind, andit's a tough.
It's a tough stress to dealwith of holding off on getting
that thing done and out of theway Now that you thought about
it versus going.
Oh, I need a little self care,like that's it.
Charles (15:34):
And I've experienced this and I've got friends that
have experienced it too wheresometimes if you're in a
relationship with some difficultareas that need improvement,
sometimes the only time you feellike it's okay to bring those
up is after you've had a coupleof shots in you.
That's a good point Right yeah,liquid courage, exactly.
And you're like, okay, my, mydefenses are down, my
(15:55):
inhibitions are lowered, now Ican bring up this thing that's
been bothering me.
Yeah, but your skills to handleit healthy and appropriately
are also out the window becauseof those same drinks that you
had that gave you the courage tobring it up.
Dan (16:08):
Right.
So what I think happens isright alcohol kind of numbs
things.
So they numb some of thoseanxiety feelings and those
stressful feelings that werepreventing us from having the
conversation to begin with.
So I think those get numbed,but it also numbs.
What else is it numbing now tooright, and what else is it kind
of Empathy, your ability?
Charles (16:25):
Smoothing over in terms of your sharpness, your ability
to think and respond to whatthe other person is saying.
It numbs everything, and that'sthe problem when it's like, oh,
I had another fight with mypartner last night.
Yeah, were you drinking?
As a matter of fact, I was,how'd you like?
Okay, well, there's a, there'sa pattern there and, yeah,
(16:47):
that's one of the reasons that Iwould encourage everyone to
consider giving up alcohol, atleast in the moment when you
feel like you've got a difficultconversation that you need to
have.
I know it's harder to initiatethe conversation when you're
clean and sober, but it's alsowhen you got the best shot of
handling it the way you should.
I mean, those conversations arehard no matter what, so throw
(17:09):
on some stress and some hungerand it's going to get even
harder.
Dan (17:12):
One thing that helped me was when she broke down
scientifically what emotions arein our body and mentioned that
those are really just chemicalsthat are released within six
seconds and they last only 90seconds unless we do something
to bring them back up again.
So once I hear that's not a lotof time, it gives me a little
bit more hope that, hey, I canhandle some uncomfortable
(17:34):
feelings as they crop up, for ifjust 90 seconds okay yeah, and
there's an abc loop that'smentioned in this chapter and
it's a different one than sheshe brought up a few chapters
ago, I think as well.
Charles (17:47):
Which is what we learned before was that
something happens to you in yourlife.
You assign meaning and value tothat thing that's happened and
then you react to the meaning orvalue that you put on it.
You're rarely reacting to theactual thing that happened.
You're reacting to the valueyou put on it and the feelings
that you've let yourselfexperience and then you have a
(18:08):
reaction to those.
Yeah, and when you'reconfronting someone or dealing
with someone who's exhibitingthese childlike behaviors, she
recommends acknowledge thepattern, break the cycle and
choose your response.
But it also does fit into thatsame thing of okay, you're going
to experience this issue andthen you're going to assign
meaning to it and there's a goodchance you're going to get that
(18:30):
assignment part of the projectwrong and then you're going to
react based on the meaning thatyou assigned, which could be
completely.
One of the things to remember iswhen somebody responds to you
with these difficult childlikebehaviors, this is not about you
, this is.
These are patterns that theyformed probably decades before
they even met you, and so it'snot your responsibility or your
(18:55):
fault that they're, that you'rethe current target of those, the
negative aspects of thosepatterns.
That's not.
It has nothing to do with you.
You're just the person in theirlife that's currently
experiencing it, but it's aboutthe lack of skill or the lack of
work that they've yet toexperience.
It's not about oh, charles isso special, he came into this
(19:17):
person's life and now they haveto behave this way.
That's not how it works.
Dan (19:24):
Here's a mistake that I always make for many years until
I realized how many flavors orhow communication changes
between people.
So a lot of times, like yousaid we'd, I would react based
on something somebody said and,looking back, well, that person
was saying it in a state ofdistress.
So a lot of times what theywere communicating was not clear
, it wasn't exactly maybe whatthey meant.
(19:45):
They were out, lost for words.
They weren't at their bestselves when they were giving me
this information.
So now it's already muddled andnot exactly how they're feeling
about things.
And then I would take thatliterally and go oh, you said X,
y and Z.
So that's what this means to me.
Well, a lot of times that myinterpretation is already flawed
(20:07):
because what they wereexpressing was accurate.
So now I'm basing myassumptions and my meaning based
on inaccurate information,right, and now I'm reacting, and
probably not in the best.
I'm not looking at it as thebest case scenario most of the
time, because we're not wiredthat way.
I'm looking at it as worst casescenario of a flawed piece of
(20:28):
information.
And so now my reaction is goingto be completely, possibly
completely inappropriate orcompletely off kilter or not
helpful at all.
Knowing that it helps me slowdown and go.
Okay, I don't have all theinformation here.
Yes, this is my initialthoughts, these are my initial
reactions, that this is what itmeans.
But a lot of times what'shelped me is just going for a
(20:51):
walk and like talking it all outliterally into an Evernote
where I can like review all mythoughts, but and then going
through it and realizing, hey,this is not the most likely
scenario, this is not the mostlikely scenario, this is
probably a little bit moreaccurate.
And then once I start to seethat that helps me kind of bring
down, bring down my feelingalso moving, getting those
(21:11):
flight or flight hormones to getused up, basically, and that
extra energy to be used up, thatabsolutely helps as well with
that.
Charles (21:20):
For me anyway, yeah, I think the going for a walk
instead of just or even going tolift it's hard to for me.
It's hard to make myself dothat in the moment, because it
feels like I've got to urgentlydeal with this situation and I
don't have time to take a breakto walk around the block.
I've got to do this now.
Dan (21:39):
Yeah.
Charles (21:40):
Where, in most cases, things aren't as urgent as we
think they are.
Dan (21:44):
Yeah.
Charles (21:44):
And people.
It's very rare that there's asituation where this has to be
handled immediately or else dot,dot dot, and the or else is
something true and serious.
Yeah, it just feels that way inthe moment.
The next chapter, eight, isabout making good decisions or
appropriate decisions, or rightdecisions, even when they don't
feel right.
(22:04):
And this is an important onewhere sometimes, I think,
sometimes we try to leverage ourintuition and this idea that
when I'm in a tough spot, I'lljust trust myself to do whatever
feels right in the moment andI'll get it right where.
That's often not how it works.
The thing that feels right inthe moment coincidentally often
(22:28):
overlaps with what the easiestthing to do is.
Dan (22:31):
Oh yeah.
Charles (22:32):
It's interesting Funny how it works out that way.
And so that's not true.
I mean, we are social primatesthat are conditioned to find the
easy way to do things wheneverwe can, because that leaves us
energy and resources to dealwith the emergencies that may be
right around the corner.
So we're really good atconvincing ourselves that
(22:52):
whatever the easiest thing to dois also the correct thing to do
.
But that's not always the case.
And she gives a few stories inthis chapter Just, and I've got
just like one little one linedescriptions of these stories
and just thinking those gives mestress A bride canceling her
wedding two weeks before, anexecutive leaving a family
business, a parent settingboundaries with their adult
(23:14):
children and a career changethat will affect the entire
family.
Sometimes, when you assess thesituation you're in and you do
some work to write down and layout what your values are, what's
important, then that leads youto the point, the conclusion of
okay, I've got to make thisdifficult decision and it's
(23:37):
going to be rough on me and it'sgoing to be rough on other
people, but I've got to do it.
Dan (23:41):
Yeah.
Charles (23:42):
And then that kind of puts you into a week, month,
year of just different levels ofmisery, while you're building
up to what you have to do tofind it in yourself to make that
decision.
And it can be rough, but thefact that it's rough doesn't
mean you shouldn't do it.
Dan (24:01):
Yeah, what she mentions is to think of family like almost a
spider web where everybody isinterconnected and so anybody
who does any almost anything, itshakes the web and it starts to
affect almost everybody,whether, whether it really does
or not, people are in yourfamily, they seem to be invested
(24:22):
in your life and vice versa alot of times, and so sometimes
what could seem somewhatinnocuous is actually cause a
lot of problems within thefamily because of the way that
that's connected.
And I can see similar type ofanalogy in work.
If you've got basically a workenvironment where you've got
bosses and coworkers and acompany and changes that you
(24:44):
make or requests that you makeor don't make or that's going to
affect other people, and thatcould be also like a secondary
type of family and all thoserelationships that get affected
from this decision that you'remaking.
And now that's just building upmore anxiety and stress in
terms of holy cow, and when youthink about it it's not quite as
(25:04):
bad.
But without putting words to itor thoughts to it and realizing
it's just, oh my gosh, youreally could blow this up into
some bigger deal than it is andcause you to really kind of
paralyze a lot of times withdecisions so calling off a
wedding and maybe you knowpeople waiting and waiting and
with a wedding that gets moreand more expensive and it gets
(25:25):
worse and worse the closer youget to that landing.
So it's it really is difficult.
Yeah, I've been there in termsof calling out the wedding, but
the woman I was dating at thetime actually made it probably
so easy for me because shehandled it.
It was mostly her family thatwas invested in this process, so
yeah, I can't imagine that thatwould be.
Charles (25:47):
I've not had to go through that and I can imagine
how difficult that would be.
Yeah, we only lost.
Dan (25:50):
like I can't imagine that that would be.
I've not had to go through thatand I can imagine how difficult
that would be.
Yeah, we only lost like $500 onthe wedding invitations.
That was it.
That was it.
Charles (25:55):
That was about as good as it could go, I mean, minus
the emotional impacts.
I'm sure that wasn't easy, butWell, the thing was it was a
mutual right, it was absolutelymutual.
Dan (26:05):
She basically turned to me and was just like listen, you
really don't want to get married, do you?
It was like five months afterwe got engaged and I was just
like, no, I just didn't want tolose her as a friend, because
she basically gave me anultimatum.
And so it was kind of like,well, what are we doing here?
And I'm like, well, you're likemy best friend, I don't want to
lose that.
Charles (26:24):
So I guess we're going to get married, obviously, yeah
yeah, I think the other mistakethat we can often make is this
assumption that well, I'll justtake more time and I'll just
delay this decision.
There's no downside to that.
Making the wrong decision, thatcould be a huge problem, but
just putting it off there's noreason not to do that.
Dan (26:41):
It's going to make me feel better in the moment right,
exactly, that's the thing, andmy emotions are scary.
I don't want to deal with it.
Charles (26:46):
You're telling yourself that it's smart to wait and
gather more information, but ina lot of cases we've already
made the decision.
We are just afraid to implementit because of how it's going to
feel and how it's going to makethe other person feel.
And it's like I don't want todisappoint this other person and
I don't want them to be mad atme.
I don't want to think, I don'twant them to think I'm a bad guy
, yada, yada, yada.
But you've already decided likethis is what I have to do.
(27:09):
And now you're just afraid todo it and, as she mentions in
this chapter, the longer youtake, the worse it's going to be
on both of you.
Dan (27:16):
Yeah, yeah.
So she comes in and says okay,the let them theory applies to
letting those people get angryat you.
Feel those emotions be pissedoff.
Let them have it.
Let them have their reactions,you can't control them anyway.
Charles (27:31):
I've been there with jobs that I wanted to leave,
that I decided I wanted to leave, but I wanted like leaving on
good terms was so important tome yeah, in any relationship,
leaving on good terms, right,letting out exactly how to leave
on good terms, so I just won'tleave.
And that's a great tool thatyour brain can use to trick you
into procrastinating.
A great tool that your braincan use to trick you into
(27:51):
procrastinating doing the thingthat you don't want to do.
Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah.
That can be miserable.
Yeah, sure, I remember a job Iwas in where I decided that it
wasn't good for my career, itwasn't good for my financial
future.
But it's like you know, I knowhow these people talk crap about
people that quit and leave them.
Dan (28:14):
And I don't want to be one of those people.
Charles (28:14):
So and listen man, I think everybody out there has
gone through that multiple timesthroughout life.
Yeah, probably withrelationships, with jobs, with
all, and it's like you saidbecause we're social beings.
Dan (28:19):
We don't want to have this back then, back then thousands
of years ago back thousands ofyears ago.
yeah, you do one thing wrong tosomebody, everybody finds out
about it.
Now it's like you could beostracized and kicked out of the
tribe and that's basicallycertain death.
So our brains haven't changedsince then.
At least our primitive brainshaven't changed yet.
(28:41):
Our prefrontal cortex the newone has, but we got to use it
and we got to make sure thatdoesn't go offline.
When we're feeling all theseemotions, the modern part of our
brain goes offline.
We're in survival mode.
We're not able to think hey,it's going to be okay for us to
feel these negative emotions andrisk causing somebody else to
feel these negative emotions.
Charles (29:02):
Right, yeah, I think back to I think I've shared this
on the podcast before I heardit from, I think, a comedian or
somebody who was a guest on apodcast where the root of our
fear of public speaking is dueto the fact that for thousands
of years, the only time you wereasked to speak in public was
when you were convincing thetribe not to kick you out.
Dan (29:19):
Oh my gosh Joe, I've never heard that, but that makes so
much sense.
Charles (29:22):
Doesn't it?
Yeah, like.
You're defending yourself 10,000years ago, the only time you
were given a speech, it wasplease don't kick me out of the
tribe.
Yeah, it wasn't.
Hey, I've got a new five minutecomedy act I've been working on
.
It was okay.
The tribe has caught me doingsomething that is not okay with
them.
They want to kick me out.
So now I get a chance to yeah,try to convince them all why I
(29:45):
shouldn't be kicked out of thetribe.
And that was the only publicspeaking that humans did for
thousands of years.
And now that's why it's stillthe number one fear that most
people say is speaking in public.
Dan (29:56):
That's interesting.
Charles (29:57):
Yeah.
Dan (29:58):
And people say, yeah, that's more fearful than death.
Charles (30:00):
Yeah, For most people it is yeah, or in surveys it's
cited more often than dying yeah.
And that's the reason why,because it it's almost like
dying plus something else.
Right.
Well, it's like a long slowdeath, depending on how long
your speech is right.
Yeah, exactly yeah, it's thelong slow death of trying to
convince people that you'reworthy of keeping around and
(30:23):
then they possibly decide, no,you're not.
So then you die of exposure andstarvation.
Dan (30:28):
You are putting yourself in a position of being judged by
many people all at the same time, correct?
Charles (30:35):
Yeah.
Dan (30:36):
And of course, our brains never go to oh, they're thinking
the best, they're thinking I'man amazing speaker and our
brains don't do that.
So it's going to be alsonegative criticism that they're
coming at us, or at least we'reassuming will be coming at us.
Charles (30:49):
Yeah, we're.
We are assuming that the reasonthat we're the ones speaking is
not because they recognize usas being, you know, special or
professional or especiallylearned.
It's no, we're up here to proveourselves that we're valuable,
yeah, and that that's where thatanxiety comes from.
Wow, so, yeah, that actually ishelpful.
Once you hear that though yeah,I think so.
(31:11):
I think once you canintellectually understand what
your brain is doing, what yourbrain is doing, then it's a
little easier to come up withstrategies to say, okay, I
understand that's where this iscoming from, but I'm not going
to live according to that rule.
Dan (31:22):
Yeah To me, then.
It helps me focus on the valuethat I'd be providing from
speaking in public at that point, and there is.
Charles (31:29):
there is no worst case scenario today.
That's comparable to what itwas 10,000 years ago.
Maybe you won't be asked backto that event to speak again.
Yeah, maybe you'll never beasked to speak in public again,
but you're still not going to beforced to live out in the
wilderness by yourself.
Dan (31:43):
That's just not going to happen.
Charles (31:44):
Yeah, Okay.
So when it comes time to makethat decision and inform others
of it, the process that shesuggests is stay firm but kind.
Allow emotions withoutabsorbing them.
Keep your boundaries clear andfocus on your why process of
(32:05):
breaking up with somebody ortelling them you don't want to
see them anymore.
Where it's like, you gotta staydedicated to just giving them
the information they need andnot turning it into a
opportunity for them to convinceyou that you're making the
wrong decision and as a result,that's you'll come across as
cold or inflexible.
Dan (32:23):
But that's actually the kindest way to handle an
interaction like this so shealso mentions in this chapter
about prioritizing everybodyelse's emotional needs over your
own values, peace and future.
When I think of a scale and I'mthinking about the decisions
(32:44):
that we're making are related tofuture relationships, jobs,
things that are really importantand that basically take up
years of our life resources,time, energy, how valuable and,
yeah, values, right, yeah,versus somebody else's emotions.
Like, I'm like, oh my God, like, and we regularly prioritize
(33:07):
somebody's emotions over thesepillars of life for ourselves.
That's true, and we just get inthis habit of doing that, where
we're making those emotions ofother people that we can't
control more important.
Charles (33:19):
And when I heard that, I'm like, oh my God, we're
insane, we're all insane byacting this way, yeah, and like
we talked about, I think, lastweek or the week before, the
idea of putting so much energyand so much anxiety into what
you think people will thinkabout you, even when you're
wrong.
So even with, like, you'remaking these huge decisions or
(33:41):
choosing not to make these hugedecisions based on your
impression of what other peoplemight think of you.
That is probably not evencorrect, and it's a shame that
the only tool we have for makingthese decisions is such a
flawed tool, but it's the onlytool we have.
So we have to look for methodsand mechanisms outside of our
(34:01):
own assumptions that we can relyon, because those assumptions
are going to lead us the wrongway so many times.
But with practice we can getbetter at it.
With practice we can get ourbrains to defaulting to seeing
things the right way instead ofthe scary way.
Dan (34:19):
So I'm going to read a little bit from what she has in
the book.
Actually, she gives us tips onhow to do that, Like it's yeah,
great idea, but how do youactually do that and put that
into practice?
So what she says, and I tellyou think, towards the end she
says you're stronger thansomeone else's temporary
emotional reaction.
Let the waves rise, Let themfall.
Do the hard thing now so you'renot suffering years from now.
(34:42):
Let me tell the truth.
Let me act in integrity.
Let them be upset if they needto be.
That's emotional maturity.
That let them be upset if theyneed to be, that's emotional
maturity, that's adulthood.
And so it's, I guess, lettingthe emotional waves rise within
us as we are thinking about howother people are gonna react,
and just let them.
And when they rise, eventuallythey'll fall.
(35:04):
And what she'd said was 90seconds.
So if you can hang on for 90,ride that wave for 90 seconds, I
think we're okay, but 90seconds is a long time when
we're in the moment it feelslike forever, absolutely.
Charles (35:16):
But yeah, it is.
It is still short enough to betemporary, and being able to
realize that it's temporarywhile you're in the middle of it
is is key.
Yeah, I.
One of the meditations Ilistened to a while ago was
talking about meditating throughphysical pain, whether that's
tripped in a dentist or yourlower back, bothering you or
(35:37):
whatever and so much of theanxiety we experience about pain
.
By the time you're, when yourbody feels pain, in the moment
that you've registered feelingthe pain, you're already past
the pain.
So the misery and the anxietyis not about the pain that
you've registered feeling thepain, you're already past the
pain.
So the misery and the anxietyis not about the pain that
you've already experienced.
It's about the fear that thepain will continue.
Yeah, and I think that's trueemotionally as well as
(36:00):
physically.
Yeah, it makes sense, it'sreally the anticipation of
difficulty and pain.
That is what freaks us out,Because the actual pain you kind
of only feel it after it'salready over.
Dan (36:14):
I know this has been portrayed a lot in satire and TV
and movies, but a lot of timesyou see kid at the doctor's
office getting a shot and theyyell out, oh, and they're like,
I haven't even stuck in it, Ihaven't given it to you yet, but
I think that's real.
I think we all do that in someform.
Charles (36:28):
Absolutely, and it can freeze us up and it can stop us
from going forward with doingthe things we need to do.
Yeah, because the anticipationof the bad thing just is
all-encompassing, where the badthing itself, by the time you
feel it and you recognize it,it's already in the past.
Dan (36:46):
Yeah, she also mentioned in this chapter something that
I've been guilty of a lot oftimes in my life, which is I
don't like conflict, I avoidconflict.
And what she says is you're notavoiding conflict, you're
avoiding other people's emotions.
That's what you're really doing.
It's true, it's not the actualperson that you've got a problem
with, it's how do you handletheir emotions.
That's what you're scared of.
You're really scared of notconflicts, but other people's
(37:09):
reactions, other people'semotions.
Charles (37:12):
Interesting, and I mean I think you can.
You could make the case thatthat's an act of selfishness too
, where you're saying I amwilling to prolong their
difficulty or their misery inthe comfort I'm feeling and not
having to make the decision sothey can yeah they can just suck
it up and deal with continuingto live their life, Thinking
(37:34):
everything's fine when I've gota hammer I'm about to drop on
them.
But it's too dropping the hammeron them and then they're
reacting to it.
That's too uncomfortable, soI'll just leave the hammer or
the guillotine or the ax overtheir neck as long as I need to
(37:55):
feel comfortable and then I'lldrop it when it feels like the
moment's right.
Dan (37:56):
For me, that's kind of a selfish way to it's really
selfish.
Absolutely yeah, and you're notbeing honest either about how
you're feeling or you're therelationship that you're
currently having with thatperson, either right, yeah, yeah
.
Charles (38:06):
So knock it off everybody, including including
Charles and Dan.
All right, we will pick up nextweek with chapters nine and 10.
Let me open my app up and seewhat those are.
Let's see there's audiblechapter nine yes, life isn't
fair.
And chapter 10, how to makecomparison your teacher.
Dan (38:26):
So we will cover that in the next episode Sounds good.
All right.
Charles (38:29):
Thanks, dan.
Thanks, teacher.
So we will cover that in thenext episode.
Sounds good, all right, thanks,dan.
Thanks for listening to theentire episode of Mindfully
Masculine.
We appreciate it If you'relearning to stay calm in the
storm or make decisions thatdon't feel easy but are right.
You're not alone.
You can catch all our audio andvideo episodes at
mindfullymasculinecom.
It's the place to listen, watchand keep an eye out for
anything else we decide to sharedown the road.
We'll be back next time withchapter 9 yes, life isn't fair
(38:52):
and chapter 10 how to makecomparison.
Your teacher talk to you nexttime.
A good idea is to go into any emotionally charged
conversation with any adult andkind of expect them to act like
a child, and I think that's avaluable way to frame like
anytime you're going into atough conversation with anybody,
whether it's a work colleagueor a supervisor or your romantic
partner, whoever just kind ofbe on the lookout for.
(00:22):
What I'm probably going to seein this conversation is some
childlike behavior, because, ifthey're like me, they didn't
learn all the things as a kidthat they needed to learn to
regulate their emotions.
So some of that's about tobleed out because we're going to
have a tough conversation.
Welcome to the MindfullyMasculine Podcast.
This is Charles.
In this episode, dan and Iunpack two powerful chapters
(00:45):
from the let them theory Oneabout recognizing adult tantrums
for what they really are andthe other about making the hard
choice even when it feelsterrible.
We talk about how emotionalimmaturity shows up in everyday
relationships, why staying calmtakes more than willpower, and
how to hold your ground when theright move hurts, whether
you're trying to avoid a blow upat work or wrestling with a big
(01:06):
decision in your personal life.
This one's packed with insightand more than a few stories from
our own emotional missteps.
Let's go.
Dan (01:13):
Good morning Charles.
Charles (01:15):
Hello Dan, how are you?
Dan (01:16):
I'm doing well.
Thanks A little bit of a crazy.
Charles (01:20):
I say thanks.
Dan (01:21):
How about you?
Let's rewind?
I say thanks.
How about you?
Let's rewind?
How are you Spectacular?
I guess that would be theproper, polite thing for me to
ask.
Is it's not all about me?
I should ask about you too,right?
Charles (01:29):
I'm okay, thank you.
It's been a crazy week.
My cat's been sick, so theemotional and financial toll of
a sick cat has been wreakinghavoc with my life.
But I think we're on to coverchapter seven and eight on the
let them theory and I am happyto say chapter seven was kind of
a turning point with me on thisbook oh, yeah, I really liked
(01:50):
it.
Okay, what was your favoritepart?
So the four parts chapter title.
Shall I say chapter title iswhen grown-ups throw tantrums,
and I love throwing tantrumsthat's what.
Dan (02:00):
That was my favorite part too, I.
Charles (02:02):
It is interesting how she talks about, like what the
adult equivalent to tempertantrums.
That's what that was.
My favorite part too, I it isinteresting how she talks about
like what the adult equivalentto temper tantrums are yeah with
a kid.
That was insightful for heractual temper.
Tantrums with an adult is likewe usually do it in more passive
, aggressive ways.
Yeah, they're tantrumsnonetheless.
But number one, I liked how shereally owned up to her own
emotional immaturity and theeffect that it's had on her life
(02:23):
and the effect that it had onher kids lives.
Yeah, because it takes a prettybig person to admit hey, my
kids are in therapy because Ifucked up I know that's what you
were criticizing.
Dan (02:32):
Therefore, all up to this point, you're like does she
realize, like who she is, likehow she's coming across?
And she absolutely does so, andit seemed like it from this
chapter she definitely does getit.
Charles (02:42):
And the biggest thing that was kind of reinforced for
me that I kind of already got ona conceptual basis, but I liked
the way that she said it and itdid resonate with me.
A good idea is to go into anyemotionally charged conversation
with any adult and kind ofexpect them to act like a child,
and I think that's a valuableway to frame like anytime you're
(03:05):
going into a tough conversationwith anybody, whether it's a
work colleague or a supervisoror your romantic partner,
whoever just kind of be on thelookout for.
What I'm probably going to seein this conversation is some
childlike behavior, because ifthey're like me, they didn't
learn all the things as a kidthat they needed to learn to
regulate their emotions, yeah.
(03:25):
So some of that's about tobleed out because we're going to
have a tough conversation, yeah.
Or being completely stoic withyou and cold yeah, and you don't
want to communicate In my notesis that when a child will
physically run away from you ifyou're telling them something
they don't want to hear an adultwill just kind of shut down and
avoid confrontation and eitherthe silent treatment or just
(03:48):
sort of detach from thesituation, some form of avoid,
don't wall, check out, whateveryou want to call it.
Yeah, and so instead ofphysically running away which
would be funny to see a coworkeractually run away from you when
you're trying to have adifficult conversation they'll
just kind of shut down and giveone word answers.
Dan (04:05):
Or in my case, in reality I'm dealing with right now is
not responding with an email.
Charles (04:09):
Right.
Dan (04:10):
Right and just not hearing anything back and it's and they
clearly made the mistake andthey're not owning up to it, but
one's kind of suffering becauseof it, unfortunately, yeah.
Charles (04:19):
And so how does one handle that?
It's like, do you do you dowhat feels like chasing them
down to get an answer?
Do you bend over backwards tomake them comfortable?
Or do you just say, okay, ifyou're not ready to talk about
it now, then I'll wait.
But yeah business relationship.
Dan (04:33):
That gets tough because, especially when you're waiting
for them to sign a checksomething I really picked up
from this chapter that I thoughtwas insightful was a kid
melting down when they don't getwhat they want is actually a
normal reaction and we shouldnot be suppressing that in in
some way.
Right, we should be.
We shouldn't be reactingnegatively to it, we shouldn't
(04:54):
be encouraging it, but allowingit to happen and letting them
know hey, it's okay, but this ishow we deal with things.
We're not always going to getwhat we want, and I understand
you're upset.
Leave it at that and not try tochange the emotions, because if
they don't know how to processthem or learn how to process
them, like she's talking aboutwhen we were kids, we're not
(05:15):
spending much time working onthat as adults.
And now we're alleight-year-old emotional kids in
adult bodies.
Charles (05:22):
Yeah, and I would say that I mean looking back I see
that in my own childhood and inthe childhoods of my friends,
where, for the most part, Ididn't really see this modeled
the right way at all, it waseither parents who constantly
coddled their kids, parents whoconstantly denied their kids'
feelings, or, in my case, I feellike my parents went back and
(05:45):
forth between denying myfeelings and modeling me okay,
and I never knew which reactionI was going to get.
But it was never justacknowledging my feelings and
sitting with me in my feelingsand my parents being the steady
ones so that I could feel like Ihad the space to confront those
(06:06):
feelings and live through myfeelings.
It was always either they'rethere, it's OK, you don't need
to feel this way, or you're fine.
This is nothing to be upsetabout and just wildly swinging
between the two of them.
Dan (06:18):
And she makes a great point is our parents weren't taught
that as children either.
So now our outbursts aschildren were probably causing
them to feel emotions theycouldn't handle or get to a
point very quickly that theycouldn't handle, and so then
they're not operating as theirbest selves and they're not
making good decisions either,and so they're not able to
(06:40):
absorb and handle the situationand us.
So, yeah, they're basicallyoperating with their
eight-year-old children brainstrying to handle our
eight-year-old emotionaloutbursts, and that's.
Charles (06:55):
Yeah, not a recipe for.
Dan (06:56):
That's like Lord of the.
Charles (06:56):
Flies action going over .
Exactly.
It's not a recipe for successby any means.
Yeah, and I like her point that, listen, when bad stuff happens
to you, you're supposed to getsad or angry about it.
Or when sad stuff happens toyou, you're supposed to get sad
or angry.
That's the designed reaction.
And when you try to get someonetries to talk you out of that
(07:17):
reaction, that only delays it,puts it off and increases the
chance that you're going to dealwith it in an unhealthy way,
where it's like, yeah, whenshitty, chance that you're going
to deal with it in an unhealthyway, where it's like, yeah,
when shitty stuff happens,you're supposed to be upset
about it.
That's the way that it'ssupposed to work and you can't
really you can't help that.
You can't stop it, you can'tinterrupt it, you can't control
(07:37):
what happens to you and youcan't control your immediate
emotional reaction to it.
All you can control is what youdo with it and how you act it
out yeah.
Dan (07:46):
so that's how she ties it back to the whole principle of
the let them theory is she sayslet them react, let them be
quiet and ignore you, let themnot engage with you, hold your
boundary, don't solve theirstorm, and so that's you letting
them react and you, it's.
Charles (08:06):
the let me part is let me hold my own boundaries, let
me give them that space regularbasis, fairly unfruitful
conversations, or you're seeingsomeone in your life like a
parent, a child, a romanticpartner, a close friend,
(08:34):
constantly showing up to thesedifficult conversations or just
showing up to life and actinglike a kid.
One thing you can do again ifyou're close to them, close
enough to them, there's a goodchance you might have some old
pictures of them when they werechildren.
Oh yeah, I like that.
Try to use that, not in acondescending way or not in a
way to make you feel superior tothem, but just look at them as
(08:58):
a kid and even do this withyourself.
Look at yourself as a kid andrealize, okay, this version of
me or them didn't learn thethings that they needed to learn
to deal with moments like thisthat are occurring 20, 30, 40
years later.
Yeah, and so I'm gonna try tohave some empathy and some
compassion for that kid that'strying to deal with this the
(09:19):
best way.
Dan (09:20):
They know how still locked inside that grown-up body yeah,
and I like what you just saidwas think of yourself as that
kid too, because then you give alittle self compassion for the
emotions that are going to comeup for you as well and don't
suppress them either, but try todon't let them just go freaking
crazy.
But at the same point, if Ithink of myself as that child,
(09:43):
that eight year old dealing withand remembering how I dealt
with things when I was eightyears old, it's really going to
give me some space to allowthose feelings to be there and
also kind of put this blanketover it, like this is not the
correct reaction or youshouldn't be expressing these
thoughts that are coming up fromthese crazy emotions that
(10:06):
you're having right now.
Give yourself a chance.
So question for you what'seasier for you, or I should say,
what's harder for you stayingcalm when somebody else's
emotional reaction is aimed atyou, or handling your own
emotional reaction to things?
Charles (10:22):
Ooh, good question.
I guess it a lot of it's goingto be context dependent who it
is, what the what, the situation, what the subject is.
I would say, in most cases,controlling what's coming up
inside of me is going to be themore difficult thing, but
controlling my reaction, what'scoming from them, yeah.
But you know, I can think backto situations with with former
(10:42):
partners where they would cometo me with an issue or a concern
and they would clearly come tome as a rational, reasonable
adult, but I would immediatelyturn into that eight-year-old
kid and then I would say or dosomething in response to that,
would transform them into theeight-year-old kid.
And then you got twoeight-year-old kids arguing with
(11:03):
each other, trying to solve agrown-up problem or a grown-up
situation, and that's a good wayof putting it.
Dan (11:09):
I that's absolutely.
Charles (11:11):
Same things happen to me absolutely, and I've been on
both sides of that, where I'veapproached the situation, quote,
unquote the right way, as anadult, and immediately they
reacted to it like a child,which then caused my inner child
to decide oh okay, we're're twokids in a in an argument right
now, and all the stuff, all theintention I brought into the
conversation initially to hey,let's confront this issue in a
(11:31):
positive and healthy way, justgoes out the window and it's
just two kids fight with eachother.
Dan (11:36):
Yeah, yeah.
Charles (11:37):
And yeah, it's so hard to notice that in the moment at
least it has been for me in thepast like, oh, this, the whole
tone of this just changed.
And now I'm fighting with thisother person based on my
incomplete knowledge of copingand regulation skills that I
came out of my childhood with.
Yeah, and now and if that's notbad enough, I'm also bringing
(11:57):
you down to my level is part ofit too.
And then, because if in somecases, one person can stay away
from that, one person can say,no, I'm going to, I'm going to
maintain the mature frame andframing of this issue, and then
I'm not going to, I'm going torespect what you're going
through, but I'm not going tocome down to your level.
And that is one way that youknow situations like this can be
(12:20):
avoided.
But otherwise it's just goingto escalate.
And yeah you know that eightyear old turns into a seven year
old, and then the other oneturns into a six year old, and
it's really difficult to stay inthat position.
Dan (12:31):
You really need to, I think , constantly remind yourself hey
look, we're.
There's going to be emotionshere on both sides.
I want to be sensitive.
I'm going to try to not usesome hot button words or
triggers, which sometimes it'sjust it's an accident.
You don't even realize what Imean, especially as you're
getting no some money in arelationship.
(12:52):
You really don't know whattheir hot button issues are,
sometimes until the eight yearold kid is out and about already
and he's crying and screaming.
So, yeah, yeah, it's, it'sreasonable.
I think so many people haveproblems with our with
relationships.
Charles (13:07):
Yeah, cause we're just not like I said it's either.
I feel most parents make themistake of going either too far
on the coddling side or too faron the denying side, and you
just don't get a lot of parentsthat find the appropriate
reaction to their kids' feelingsof okay, I can, you're having
some big feelings and I cantolerate that because I'm an
adult and I've learned how toregulate my own emotions.
(13:28):
So yeah, now I can give yousome support in regulating yours
yeah and she does make thepoint that it is.
It's the job of the adult in theparent-child relationship to
help their kid manage theiremotions and to learn those
skills.
You don't get to just say letthem to, oh, my kid's spinning
out of control, so good luck.
Yeah, it's like no, you have aresponsibility to help correct
(13:49):
through that, yes, where youdon't treat your adult
relationships and your child aswell.
So, and that comes back, tosomething we learned in A Man's
Guide to Women by the Gottmans,which is learn to listen to your
body and trust your body.
(14:10):
And when your pulse gets over100, you need to be able to
recognize that and recognizethat you are not in the place
you need to be able to deal withany kind of a difficult
emotional issue.
Dan (14:21):
Yeah, and a lot of times we can be in that altered physical
state before we even have theargument from not sleeping well,
not eating well, some sort ofphysical, not even an ailment,
really, it's just day-to-daylife, like oh, I forgot to eat,
or or I just really used yourmeal.
Charles (14:36):
Now I'm falling asleep.
She mentions the big three ofalcohol, stress and hunger.
And if she's dealing with anyof these more complex
interpersonal situations whileshe's had a couple of drinks or
she's stressed or she's hungry,she's like, yeah, it's going to
go worse than it would have if Iwasn't also dealing with those
things.
Dan (14:52):
Yeah, take care of yourself first, right, sober up, have a
meal, go for a walk, whateverthat is, before you make any big
decisions or need to challengeyourself by handling a difficult
conversation where emotions aregoing to pop up, like really
sometimes.
It's like we're so busy thesedays we just want to get it done
, get it off our plate andaddress it sooner rather than
(15:14):
later.
Every time I've done that, it'snever come out as good as being
in the right state of mind, andit's a tough.
It's a tough stress to dealwith of holding off on getting
that thing done and out of theway Now that you thought about
it versus going.
Oh, I need a little self care,like that's it.
Charles (15:34):
And I've experienced this and I've got friends that
have experienced it too wheresometimes if you're in a
relationship with some difficultareas that need improvement,
sometimes the only time you feellike it's okay to bring those
up is after you've had a coupleof shots in you.
That's a good point Right yeah,liquid courage, exactly.
And you're like, okay, my, mydefenses are down, my
(15:55):
inhibitions are lowered, now Ican bring up this thing that's
been bothering me.
Yeah, but your skills to handleit healthy and appropriately
are also out the window becauseof those same drinks that you
had that gave you the courage tobring it up.
Dan (16:08):
Right.
So what I think happens isright alcohol kind of numbs
things.
So they numb some of thoseanxiety feelings and those
stressful feelings that werepreventing us from having the
conversation to begin with.
So I think those get numbed,but it also numbs.
What else is it numbing now tooright, and what else is it kind
of Empathy, your ability?
Charles (16:25):
Smoothing over in terms of your sharpness, your ability
to think and respond to whatthe other person is saying.
It numbs everything, and that'sthe problem when it's like, oh,
I had another fight with mypartner last night.
Yeah, were you drinking?
As a matter of fact, I was,how'd you like?
Okay, well, there's a, there'sa pattern there and, yeah,
(16:47):
that's one of the reasons that Iwould encourage everyone to
consider giving up alcohol, atleast in the moment when you
feel like you've got a difficultconversation that you need to
have.
I know it's harder to initiatethe conversation when you're
clean and sober, but it's alsowhen you got the best shot of
handling it the way you should.
I mean, those conversations arehard no matter what, so throw
(17:09):
on some stress and some hungerand it's going to get even
harder.
Dan (17:12):
One thing that helped me was when she broke down
scientifically what emotions arein our body and mentioned that
those are really just chemicalsthat are released within six
seconds and they last only 90seconds unless we do something
to bring them back up again.
So once I hear that's not a lotof time, it gives me a little
bit more hope that, hey, I canhandle some uncomfortable
(17:34):
feelings as they crop up, for ifjust 90 seconds okay yeah, and
there's an abc loop that'smentioned in this chapter and
it's a different one than sheshe brought up a few chapters
ago, I think as well.
Charles (17:47):
Which is what we learned before was that
something happens to you in yourlife.
You assign meaning and value tothat thing that's happened and
then you react to the meaning orvalue that you put on it.
You're rarely reacting to theactual thing that happened.
You're reacting to the valueyou put on it and the feelings
that you've let yourselfexperience and then you have a
(18:08):
reaction to those.
Yeah, and when you'reconfronting someone or dealing
with someone who's exhibitingthese childlike behaviors, she
recommends acknowledge thepattern, break the cycle and
choose your response.
But it also does fit into thatsame thing of okay, you're going
to experience this issue andthen you're going to assign
meaning to it and there's a goodchance you're going to get that
(18:30):
assignment part of the projectwrong and then you're going to
react based on the meaning thatyou assigned, which could be
completely.
One of the things to remember iswhen somebody responds to you
with these difficult childlikebehaviors, this is not about you
, this is.
These are patterns that theyformed probably decades before
they even met you, and so it'snot your responsibility or your
(18:55):
fault that they're, that you'rethe current target of those, the
negative aspects of thosepatterns.
That's not.
It has nothing to do with you.
You're just the person in theirlife that's currently
experiencing it, but it's aboutthe lack of skill or the lack of
work that they've yet toexperience.
It's not about oh, charles isso special, he came into this
(19:17):
person's life and now they haveto behave this way.
That's not how it works.
Dan (19:24):
Here's a mistake that I always make for many years until
I realized how many flavors orhow communication changes
between people.
So a lot of times, like yousaid we'd, I would react based
on something somebody said and,looking back, well, that person
was saying it in a state ofdistress.
So a lot of times what theywere communicating was not clear
, it wasn't exactly maybe whatthey meant.
(19:45):
They were out, lost for words.
They weren't at their bestselves when they were giving me
this information.
So now it's already muddled andnot exactly how they're feeling
about things.
And then I would take thatliterally and go oh, you said X,
y and Z.
So that's what this means to me.
Well, a lot of times that myinterpretation is already flawed
(20:07):
because what they wereexpressing was accurate.
So now I'm basing myassumptions and my meaning based
on inaccurate information,right, and now I'm reacting, and
probably not in the best.
I'm not looking at it as thebest case scenario most of the
time, because we're not wiredthat way.
I'm looking at it as worst casescenario of a flawed piece of
(20:28):
information.
And so now my reaction is goingto be completely, possibly
completely inappropriate orcompletely off kilter or not
helpful at all.
Knowing that it helps me slowdown and go.
Okay, I don't have all theinformation here.
Yes, this is my initialthoughts, these are my initial
reactions, that this is what itmeans.
But a lot of times what'shelped me is just going for a
(20:51):
walk and like talking it all outliterally into an Evernote
where I can like review all mythoughts, but and then going
through it and realizing, hey,this is not the most likely
scenario, this is not the mostlikely scenario, this is
probably a little bit moreaccurate.
And then once I start to seethat that helps me kind of bring
down, bring down my feelingalso moving, getting those
(21:11):
flight or flight hormones to getused up, basically, and that
extra energy to be used up, thatabsolutely helps as well with
that.
Charles (21:20):
For me anyway, yeah, I think the going for a walk
instead of just or even going tolift it's hard to for me.
It's hard to make myself dothat in the moment, because it
feels like I've got to urgentlydeal with this situation and I
don't have time to take a breakto walk around the block.
I've got to do this now.
Dan (21:39):
Yeah.
Charles (21:40):
Where, in most cases, things aren't as urgent as we
think they are.
Dan (21:44):
Yeah.
Charles (21:44):
And people.
It's very rare that there's asituation where this has to be
handled immediately or else dot,dot dot, and the or else is
something true and serious.
Yeah, it just feels that way inthe moment.
The next chapter, eight, isabout making good decisions or
appropriate decisions, or rightdecisions, even when they don't
feel right.
(22:04):
And this is an important onewhere sometimes, I think,
sometimes we try to leverage ourintuition and this idea that
when I'm in a tough spot, I'lljust trust myself to do whatever
feels right in the moment andI'll get it right where.
That's often not how it works.
The thing that feels right inthe moment coincidentally often
(22:28):
overlaps with what the easiestthing to do is.
Dan (22:31):
Oh yeah.
Charles (22:32):
It's interesting Funny how it works out that way.
And so that's not true.
I mean, we are social primatesthat are conditioned to find the
easy way to do things wheneverwe can, because that leaves us
energy and resources to dealwith the emergencies that may be
right around the corner.
So we're really good atconvincing ourselves that
(22:52):
whatever the easiest thing to dois also the correct thing to do
.
But that's not always the case.
And she gives a few stories inthis chapter Just, and I've got
just like one little one linedescriptions of these stories
and just thinking those gives mestress A bride canceling her
wedding two weeks before, anexecutive leaving a family
business, a parent settingboundaries with their adult
(23:14):
children and a career changethat will affect the entire
family.
Sometimes, when you assess thesituation you're in and you do
some work to write down and layout what your values are, what's
important, then that leads youto the point, the conclusion of
okay, I've got to make thisdifficult decision and it's
(23:37):
going to be rough on me and it'sgoing to be rough on other
people, but I've got to do it.
Dan (23:41):
Yeah.
Charles (23:42):
And then that kind of puts you into a week, month,
year of just different levels ofmisery, while you're building
up to what you have to do tofind it in yourself to make that
decision.
And it can be rough, but thefact that it's rough doesn't
mean you shouldn't do it.
Dan (24:01):
Yeah, what she mentions is to think of family like almost a
spider web where everybody isinterconnected and so anybody
who does any almost anything, itshakes the web and it starts to
affect almost everybody,whether, whether it really does
or not, people are in yourfamily, they seem to be invested
(24:22):
in your life and vice versa alot of times, and so sometimes
what could seem somewhatinnocuous is actually cause a
lot of problems within thefamily because of the way that
that's connected.
And I can see similar type ofanalogy in work.
If you've got basically a workenvironment where you've got
bosses and coworkers and acompany and changes that you
(24:44):
make or requests that you makeor don't make or that's going to
affect other people, and thatcould be also like a secondary
type of family and all thoserelationships that get affected
from this decision that you'remaking.
And now that's just building upmore anxiety and stress in
terms of holy cow, and when youthink about it it's not quite as
(25:04):
bad.
But without putting words to itor thoughts to it and realizing
it's just, oh my gosh, youreally could blow this up into
some bigger deal than it is andcause you to really kind of
paralyze a lot of times withdecisions so calling off a
wedding and maybe you knowpeople waiting and waiting and
with a wedding that gets moreand more expensive and it gets
(25:25):
worse and worse the closer youget to that landing.
So it's it really is difficult.
Yeah, I've been there in termsof calling out the wedding, but
the woman I was dating at thetime actually made it probably
so easy for me because shehandled it.
It was mostly her family thatwas invested in this process, so
yeah, I can't imagine that thatwould be.
Charles (25:47):
I've not had to go through that and I can imagine
how difficult that would be.
Yeah, we only lost.
Dan (25:50):
like I can't imagine that that would be.
I've not had to go through thatand I can imagine how difficult
that would be.
Yeah, we only lost like $500 onthe wedding invitations.
That was it.
That was it.
Charles (25:55):
That was about as good as it could go, I mean, minus
the emotional impacts.
I'm sure that wasn't easy, butWell, the thing was it was a
mutual right, it was absolutelymutual.
Dan (26:05):
She basically turned to me and was just like listen, you
really don't want to get married, do you?
It was like five months afterwe got engaged and I was just
like, no, I just didn't want tolose her as a friend, because
she basically gave me anultimatum.
And so it was kind of like,well, what are we doing here?
And I'm like, well, you're likemy best friend, I don't want to
lose that.
Charles (26:24):
So I guess we're going to get married, obviously, yeah
yeah, I think the other mistakethat we can often make is this
assumption that well, I'll justtake more time and I'll just
delay this decision.
There's no downside to that.
Making the wrong decision, thatcould be a huge problem, but
just putting it off there's noreason not to do that.
Dan (26:41):
It's going to make me feel better in the moment right,
exactly, that's the thing, andmy emotions are scary.
I don't want to deal with it.
Charles (26:46):
You're telling yourself that it's smart to wait and
gather more information, but ina lot of cases we've already
made the decision.
We are just afraid to implementit because of how it's going to
feel and how it's going to makethe other person feel.
And it's like I don't want todisappoint this other person and
I don't want them to be mad atme.
I don't want to think, I don'twant them to think I'm a bad guy
, yada, yada, yada.
But you've already decided likethis is what I have to do.
(27:09):
And now you're just afraid todo it and, as she mentions in
this chapter, the longer youtake, the worse it's going to be
on both of you.
Dan (27:16):
Yeah, yeah.
So she comes in and says okay,the let them theory applies to
letting those people get angryat you.
Feel those emotions be pissedoff.
Let them have it.
Let them have their reactions,you can't control them anyway.
Charles (27:31):
I've been there with jobs that I wanted to leave,
that I decided I wanted to leave, but I wanted like leaving on
good terms was so important tome yeah, in any relationship,
leaving on good terms, right,letting out exactly how to leave
on good terms, so I just won'tleave.
And that's a great tool thatyour brain can use to trick you
into procrastinating.
A great tool that your braincan use to trick you into
(27:51):
procrastinating doing the thingthat you don't want to do.
Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah.
That can be miserable.
Yeah, sure, I remember a job Iwas in where I decided that it
wasn't good for my career, itwasn't good for my financial
future.
But it's like you know, I knowhow these people talk crap about
people that quit and leave them.
Dan (28:14):
And I don't want to be one of those people.
Charles (28:14):
So and listen man, I think everybody out there has
gone through that multiple timesthroughout life.
Yeah, probably withrelationships, with jobs, with
all, and it's like you saidbecause we're social beings.
Dan (28:19):
We don't want to have this back then, back then thousands
of years ago back thousands ofyears ago.
yeah, you do one thing wrong tosomebody, everybody finds out
about it.
Now it's like you could beostracized and kicked out of the
tribe and that's basicallycertain death.
So our brains haven't changedsince then.
At least our primitive brainshaven't changed yet.
(28:41):
Our prefrontal cortex the newone has, but we got to use it
and we got to make sure thatdoesn't go offline.
When we're feeling all theseemotions, the modern part of our
brain goes offline.
We're in survival mode.
We're not able to think hey,it's going to be okay for us to
feel these negative emotions andrisk causing somebody else to
feel these negative emotions.
Charles (29:02):
Right, yeah, I think back to I think I've shared this
on the podcast before I heardit from, I think, a comedian or
somebody who was a guest on apodcast where the root of our
fear of public speaking is dueto the fact that for thousands
of years, the only time you wereasked to speak in public was
when you were convincing thetribe not to kick you out.
Dan (29:19):
Oh my gosh Joe, I've never heard that, but that makes so
much sense.
Charles (29:22):
Doesn't it?
Yeah, like.
You're defending yourself 10,000years ago, the only time you
were given a speech, it wasplease don't kick me out of the
tribe.
Yeah, it wasn't.
Hey, I've got a new five minutecomedy act I've been working on
.
It was okay.
The tribe has caught me doingsomething that is not okay with
them.
They want to kick me out.
So now I get a chance to yeah,try to convince them all why I
(29:45):
shouldn't be kicked out of thetribe.
And that was the only publicspeaking that humans did for
thousands of years.
And now that's why it's stillthe number one fear that most
people say is speaking in public.
Dan (29:56):
That's interesting.
Charles (29:57):
Yeah.
Dan (29:58):
And people say, yeah, that's more fearful than death.
Charles (30:00):
Yeah, For most people it is yeah, or in surveys it's
cited more often than dying yeah.
And that's the reason why,because it it's almost like
dying plus something else.
Right.
Well, it's like a long slowdeath, depending on how long
your speech is right.
Yeah, exactly yeah, it's thelong slow death of trying to
convince people that you'reworthy of keeping around and
(30:23):
then they possibly decide, no,you're not.
So then you die of exposure andstarvation.
Dan (30:28):
You are putting yourself in a position of being judged by
many people all at the same time, correct?
Charles (30:35):
Yeah.
Dan (30:36):
And of course, our brains never go to oh, they're thinking
the best, they're thinking I'man amazing speaker and our
brains don't do that.
So it's going to be alsonegative criticism that they're
coming at us, or at least we'reassuming will be coming at us.
Charles (30:49):
Yeah, we're.
We are assuming that the reasonthat we're the ones speaking is
not because they recognize usas being, you know, special or
professional or especiallylearned.
It's no, we're up here to proveourselves that we're valuable,
yeah, and that that's where thatanxiety comes from.
Wow, so, yeah, that actually ishelpful.
Once you hear that though yeah,I think so.
(31:11):
I think once you canintellectually understand what
your brain is doing, what yourbrain is doing, then it's a
little easier to come up withstrategies to say, okay, I
understand that's where this iscoming from, but I'm not going
to live according to that rule.
Dan (31:22):
Yeah To me, then.
It helps me focus on the valuethat I'd be providing from
speaking in public at that point, and there is.
Charles (31:29):
there is no worst case scenario today.
That's comparable to what itwas 10,000 years ago.
Maybe you won't be asked backto that event to speak again.
Yeah, maybe you'll never beasked to speak in public again,
but you're still not going to beforced to live out in the
wilderness by yourself.
Dan (31:43):
That's just not going to happen.
Charles (31:44):
Yeah, Okay.
So when it comes time to makethat decision and inform others
of it, the process that shesuggests is stay firm but kind.
Allow emotions withoutabsorbing them.
Keep your boundaries clear andfocus on your why process of
(32:05):
breaking up with somebody ortelling them you don't want to
see them anymore.
Where it's like, you gotta staydedicated to just giving them
the information they need andnot turning it into a
opportunity for them to convinceyou that you're making the
wrong decision and as a result,that's you'll come across as
cold or inflexible.
Dan (32:23):
But that's actually the kindest way to handle an
interaction like this so shealso mentions in this chapter
about prioritizing everybodyelse's emotional needs over your
own values, peace and future.
When I think of a scale and I'mthinking about the decisions
(32:44):
that we're making are related tofuture relationships, jobs,
things that are really importantand that basically take up
years of our life resources,time, energy, how valuable and,
yeah, values, right, yeah,versus somebody else's emotions.
Like, I'm like, oh my God, like, and we regularly prioritize
(33:07):
somebody's emotions over thesepillars of life for ourselves.
That's true, and we just get inthis habit of doing that, where
we're making those emotions ofother people that we can't
control more important.
Charles (33:19):
And when I heard that, I'm like, oh my God, we're
insane, we're all insane byacting this way, yeah, and like
we talked about, I think, lastweek or the week before, the
idea of putting so much energyand so much anxiety into what
you think people will thinkabout you, even when you're
wrong.
So even with, like, you'remaking these huge decisions or
(33:41):
choosing not to make these hugedecisions based on your
impression of what other peoplemight think of you.
That is probably not evencorrect, and it's a shame that
the only tool we have for makingthese decisions is such a
flawed tool, but it's the onlytool we have.
So we have to look for methodsand mechanisms outside of our
(34:01):
own assumptions that we can relyon, because those assumptions
are going to lead us the wrongway so many times.
But with practice we can getbetter at it.
With practice we can get ourbrains to defaulting to seeing
things the right way instead ofthe scary way.
Dan (34:19):
So I'm going to read a little bit from what she has in
the book.
Actually, she gives us tips onhow to do that, Like it's yeah,
great idea, but how do youactually do that and put that
into practice?
So what she says, and I tellyou think, towards the end she
says you're stronger thansomeone else's temporary
emotional reaction.
Let the waves rise, Let themfall.
Do the hard thing now so you'renot suffering years from now.
(34:42):
Let me tell the truth.
Let me act in integrity.
Let them be upset if they needto be.
That's emotional maturity.
That let them be upset if theyneed to be, that's emotional
maturity, that's adulthood.
And so it's, I guess, lettingthe emotional waves rise within
us as we are thinking about howother people are gonna react,
and just let them.
And when they rise, eventuallythey'll fall.
(35:04):
And what she'd said was 90seconds.
So if you can hang on for 90,ride that wave for 90 seconds, I
think we're okay, but 90seconds is a long time when
we're in the moment it feelslike forever, absolutely.
Charles (35:16):
But yeah, it is.
It is still short enough to betemporary, and being able to
realize that it's temporarywhile you're in the middle of it
is is key.
Yeah, I.
One of the meditations Ilistened to a while ago was
talking about meditating throughphysical pain, whether that's
tripped in a dentist or yourlower back, bothering you or
(35:37):
whatever and so much of theanxiety we experience about pain
.
By the time you're, when yourbody feels pain, in the moment
that you've registered feelingthe pain, you're already past
the pain.
So the misery and the anxietyis not about the pain that
you've registered feeling thepain, you're already past the
pain.
So the misery and the anxietyis not about the pain that
you've already experienced.
It's about the fear that thepain will continue.
Yeah, and I think that's trueemotionally as well as
(36:00):
physically.
Yeah, it makes sense, it'sreally the anticipation of
difficulty and pain.
That is what freaks us out,Because the actual pain you kind
of only feel it after it'salready over.
Dan (36:14):
I know this has been portrayed a lot in satire and TV
and movies, but a lot of timesyou see kid at the doctor's
office getting a shot and theyyell out, oh, and they're like,
I haven't even stuck in it, Ihaven't given it to you yet, but
I think that's real.
I think we all do that in someform.
Charles (36:28):
Absolutely, and it can freeze us up and it can stop us
from going forward with doingthe things we need to do.
Yeah, because the anticipationof the bad thing just is
all-encompassing, where the badthing itself, by the time you
feel it and you recognize it,it's already in the past.
Dan (36:46):
Yeah, she also mentioned in this chapter something that
I've been guilty of a lot oftimes in my life, which is I
don't like conflict, I avoidconflict.
And what she says is you're notavoiding conflict, you're
avoiding other people's emotions.
That's what you're really doing.
It's true, it's not the actualperson that you've got a problem
with, it's how do you handletheir emotions.
That's what you're scared of.
You're really scared of notconflicts, but other people's
(37:09):
reactions, other people'semotions.
Charles (37:12):
Interesting, and I mean I think you can.
You could make the case thatthat's an act of selfishness too
, where you're saying I amwilling to prolong their
difficulty or their misery inthe comfort I'm feeling and not
having to make the decision sothey can yeah they can just suck
it up and deal with continuingto live their life, Thinking
(37:34):
everything's fine when I've gota hammer I'm about to drop on
them.
But it's too dropping the hammeron them and then they're
reacting to it.
That's too uncomfortable, soI'll just leave the hammer or
the guillotine or the ax overtheir neck as long as I need to
(37:55):
feel comfortable and then I'lldrop it when it feels like the
moment's right.
Dan (37:56):
For me, that's kind of a selfish way to it's really
selfish.
Absolutely yeah, and you're notbeing honest either about how
you're feeling or you're therelationship that you're
currently having with thatperson, either right, yeah, yeah
.
Charles (38:06):
So knock it off everybody, including including
Charles and Dan.
All right, we will pick up nextweek with chapters nine and 10.
Let me open my app up and seewhat those are.
Let's see there's audiblechapter nine yes, life isn't
fair.
And chapter 10, how to makecomparison your teacher.
Dan (38:26):
So we will cover that in the next episode Sounds good.
All right.
Charles (38:29):
Thanks, dan.
Thanks, teacher.
So we will cover that in thenext episode.
Sounds good, all right, thanks,dan.
Thanks for listening to theentire episode of Mindfully
Masculine.
We appreciate it If you'relearning to stay calm in the
storm or make decisions thatdon't feel easy but are right.
You're not alone.
You can catch all our audio andvideo episodes at
mindfullymasculinecom.
It's the place to listen, watchand keep an eye out for
anything else we decide to sharedown the road.
We'll be back next time withchapter 9 yes, life isn't fair
(38:52):
and chapter 10 how to makecomparison.
Your teacher talk to you nexttime.
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