August 11, 2025 • 27 mins
Friendship in adulthood isn’t what it used to be — and in this conversation, we get into why that’s not always a bad thing. Charles and Dan dig into the myths we carry from childhood about how friends “should” work, and how those expectations crash into reality once proximity, free time, and shared schedules disappear.
We break down Mel Robbins’ “three pillars” of friendship — proximity, timing, and energy — and give our unfiltered takes on which ones actually matter. There’s plenty of pushback on the idea that making friends requires constant effort, plus a lively debate over whether walking up to strangers is brave… or just weird.
Along the way: the “friendship market” nobody talks about, why some relationships naturally run their course, and how to stop taking it personally when they do. If you’ve ever wondered whether to fight for a friendship or let it fade, this episode has opinions.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Charles (00:00):
Loneliness, to me, is a byproduct of mediocrity.
You're lonely because you don'thave something to offer that
people want.
And, just like when we talkedabout any of our books on dating
, like Atomic Attraction or theMan's Guide to Women or what was
(00:20):
Glover's book Date Essentialsfor Men, a lot of them refer to
the dating market and similarly,we participate in friendship
markets and attention markets,and all that means is there's
supply and there's demand, andif you want the thing, that is,
(00:41):
if you want a resource that isnot unlimited, then you have to
figure out how to allocate youreffort to get the thing that you
need, whether that is food,shelter, stock, relationships,
friendships, whatever and if youare not bringing enough value
to the table that someone elseis willing to sacrifice their
(01:02):
time and attention to get someof your value, then you're going
to find yourself lonely.
Yeah, welcome to the MindfullyMasculine Podcast.
This is Charles, and today we'retalking about adult friendship.
For some people it's a constantsource of stress.
We're covering three chaptersfrom the let them theory about
why making friends as a kid wasautomatic, why some friendships
fade and how to create new onesas an adult.
(01:25):
Along the way, we'll dig intothe great scattering after
school and college, the hours itreally takes to build closeness
, and the idea that sometimesfriendships end because the
juice just isn't worth thesqueeze.
You'll hear our unfilteredtakes on timing, energy and
whether striking upconversations with strangers is
a bold move or a flashing neonred flag.
(01:45):
If you've ever wondered whetheradult friendships need to be
worked on at all, or you justwant permission to stop feeling
guilty when it fades thisepisode's for you, check out our
website, mindfullymasculinecom,for all of our episodes, audio
and video, and anything else wefeel like sharing.
Thanks and enjoy.
Dan (02:02):
Good morning Charles, how you doing.
Charles (02:04):
Okay, Dan, how are you?
Dan (02:06):
I am doing well.
Charles (02:07):
Let's talk about adult friendships and we're going to
cover three chapters in thisepisode from the Let them Theory
and we're going to yeah, thisis going to be interesting
because there's a lot of stuffin these three that I'm like.
I got a lot of opinions, sowe'll start with the idea.
Let's start a little bit abouthow our friendships started and
(02:28):
came about when we were kids.
Dan (02:30):
Yeah.
Charles (02:30):
It was all pretty much proximity based, like you were
friends with the people thatwere around you and that would
be a function of your class,your school, your neighborhood,
your t-ball team, whatever.
That's how you met people andyou were just friends with the
people, some of the people thatyou met, usually not all of them
.
You wouldn't become closefriends with everybody, but you
(02:52):
would make friendships based onpeople you were around.
Dan (02:56):
Yeah, and you were around the same people all the time.
Because of school, because ofafter-curricular, after-school
activities groups, sports teams,et cetera.
Charles (03:08):
Yeah, and then, depending on whether, I mean
certainly if your family movedfor dad's job or whatever, that
could disrupt those people fromstill remaining your friends, or
if you went to a different highschool than middle school like
you went to the one in adifferent town or something like
that, that could disrupt it.
Going off to college wouldcertainly get in the way of your
(03:31):
friendships and then, aftercollege, going off to get a job
or whatever would would be afactor.
So proximity at as you getolder, proximity becomes less
and less of a reliable factor indetermining who you're going to
be friends with.
She calls that the greatscattering.
(03:51):
Then, once you find yourself inyour career, then you know as an
adult, you're spending muchmore time with your coworkers
than you are with your friendsor your family.
Daily basis, I mean, cause alot of the time you spend with
your family after you work fulltime is you sleeping, so that
doesn't really count.
So it's really just the timebefore work and the time after
work.
And so, yeah, you're morereliably going to be spending
(04:14):
time with your coworkers thanyou are with your friends and
family, certainly with yourfriends.
Dan (04:19):
Yeah.
Charles (04:19):
If you have a friend that you don't work with, then
you're only going to continuebeing their friend if you make
time to to cultivate thatrelationship.
So here's the thing I, when shetalks about the way, her
approach to friendship and thestress and loneliness that she
(04:39):
experienced, it was very hardfor me to relate to it.
I've just always assumed that Iwould stay friends with the
people I was meant to stayfriends with.
And if somebody moved orsomebody got busy or somebody
started a family, that's justthe way it's supposed to work.
Where she talks about justhaving these overwhelming
feelings of loneliness andregret and stuff like that, and
(05:00):
it's like I just don't seefriendship that way.
I don't.
That's not a struggle that MelRobbins and I share.
And the other thing is, also, Ipicked up a little bit more of
what I consider to be her lackof self-awareness, where I don't
know man, I'm trying not to besuper judgmental, but it's
(05:22):
really difficult when she talksabout this stuff.
It's like, okay, okay, well,maybe some of your friendships
are going away because you'retoo much work.
It's too much.
It takes too much effort andtoo much investment to be your
friend.
And some people, yeah, decidelike, consciously or
unconsciously, they decide okay,having mel in my life, the
(05:42):
juice is not worth the squeeze.
So let's stop makingappointments and dates to hang
out with Mel and her husband,because she's too much work to
be around.
Dan (05:51):
Yeah, and I think she talks about that a little bit in
terms of the other two pillars.
Besides the proximity, it's thetiming and energy.
So that's one of the reasonsshe mentions both our coworkers.
Yes, we're around them all thetime, but we might not make
friends and connect with thembecause the timing might be in
different stages of their life.
Yeah, like you know if they'reolder or younger they're going
(06:12):
through things, have kids, havegrown kids, exactly, and, like
you said just right there, theenergy like maybe Mel, requires
a lot more energy than otherpeople.
Charles (06:21):
I didn't like her use of the word energy, because
energy can be such a catch allphrase like like vibes.
It's like okay, well, what areyou really saying here?
It's like.
Dan (06:31):
Yeah, it could also be.
Yeah, it could also be vibes.
Energy could be vibes.
Like I don't like the vibeshe's giving off.
Charles (06:35):
Yeah, like, yeah, like we talked and she is just.
She's too much for me.
Yeah, and as someone who's beenreferred to as too much before.
Like I get that's not thegreatest way to talk about
(06:55):
people, but he is too.
She is too much for me.
She would require way too muchinvestment for what she could
possibly return.
Dan (06:58):
Yeah, yeah, I can see that she does mention that in chapter
13, that she that she wasn'tthat proud of the way she
behaved with her couple friendsand she even called herself a
complete bitch, if you rememberthat I don't know from chapter
13 about how she was acting withthose couple friends.
So yeah, I think up until thatchapter I agree with you.
(07:19):
I think in that chapter.
I think she recognized how shewas basically behaving like a
child when it came to herfriendships with those other
three couples.
That she had said and she evensays things like I wouldn't want
me around either.
So how she acts now I have noidea, but I think it goes to
show.
I mean, I think the point shewas making was, you don't know.
(07:40):
First of all, the energy.
Charles (07:42):
Yeah, you could be bringing some negative energy or
vibes to those friendships andrelationships and then all of a
sudden, the proximity and timingstarts to they start to kind of
pull away, and so now theproximity isn't going to be
there anymore either, becauseyou're not bringing in the kind
of energy that people are goingto want to be around yeah, and I
(08:04):
mentioned to you I wanted to doa short series on the male
loneliness epidemic and I didreach out to our friend rob and
he said he would be down to joinus for that I might get back to
him.
We have a little bit betterhandle on the schedule when
we're going to be finishing thisbook.
I want to spend a coupleepisodes on that, but I'll get
into a little bit of my thoughtson it right now.
(08:24):
Which is on that?
But I'll get into a little bitof my thoughts on it right now.
Which is and I think this wouldapply to Mel and her
difficulties that she's had withadult friendships Loneliness to
me is a by-product ofmediocrity.
You're lonely because you don'thave something to offer that
people want and just like in in.
(08:44):
When we talked about any of ourbooks on dating, like Atomic
Attraction or the Man's Guide toWomen or what was Glover's book
Date Essentials for Men a lotof them refer to the dating
market and similarly weparticipate in friendship
markets and attention marketsand all that means is there's
(09:08):
supply and there's demand and ifyou want the thing that is, if
you want a resource that is notunlimited, then you have to
figure out how to allocate youreffort to get the thing that you
need, whether that is food,shelter, stock relationships,
friendships, whatever.
And if you are not bringingenough value to the table that
(09:33):
someone else is willing tosacrifice their time and
attention to get some of yourvalue, then you're going to find
yourself lonely, yeah.
Dan (09:40):
Somehow saw one woman that she connected with briefly in
the town and she was sobbing andfeeling bad for herself.
Charles (09:47):
She was out for a walk with her daughters, crying about
how lonely she was.
Dan (09:52):
And the daughters made her go up to the house, knock on the
door and introduce herself andsay hey is so-and-so home.
I connected with her once, yeah, or the other story of her
going to a coffee shop andintroducing herself to the
barista as well as the couplenext to her that had been
sitting there the whole time.
I was dying to hear your takeon her suggestions on on getting
(10:17):
put going first.
Whole let them theory is let mego first and ridiculous
compliment somebody.
say hi to somebody I wasoutraged as I thought you were
would be yeah yeah.
Charles (10:31):
So let's start with the first one.
If you are a grown person andyou're going for a nice evening
stroll in your neighborhood withyour adult children and they
have to comfort youruncontrollable sobbing that you
don't have any friends, you needto get your shit together.
Like seriously, who, what goodperson, is going to put that
burden on their daughters?
Like let's walk around and I'mgoing to cry to you about how I
(10:54):
don't have any friends.
Dan (10:55):
Well, daughters weren't having it, so that's why they
dragged her up to the house andwas like hey, here's your friend
and then she introduces herself.
Charles (11:02):
The husband answers the door and she introduces the
daughter, like, introduces heras this is my mom.
She's really lonely, shedoesn't have any friends.
If you that introduction isself-selecting, the only kind of
person that would be interestedin being your mom's friend
after that introduction issomeone who also has something
wrong with them.
Interesting, interesting, Imean, think about it If you got
(11:23):
a knock on your door from somewoman and she's like this is my
husband steve.
Dan (11:28):
He's really lonely and he needs a friend now I think the
context here too is that she didmeet that woman at some point
before.
Who knows what kind ofconnection or conversation they
had.
So if I had met a guy, I had agood conversation with him, and
he knocked on his yeah and thatand that happened, it would be a
little bit weird.
A hundred percent.
Charles (11:48):
It would be the end of the story for me.
I don't care.
Dan (11:50):
I don't care.
I thought, like I legitimatelyhad a good conversation with him
, I'd be like I'd be open totalking to him once again.
I wouldn't be setting up anydates, but I'd be open to having
a conversation no, under.
Charles (12:02):
I don't care how good my initial connection with
somebody was, if my secondinteraction with them was their
kid or their spouse telling meabout how lonely they were and
how much they needed friends,I'd be like, well, you're at the
wrong house, because this, thiswhole sick family system that
you've got going on disqualifiesyou from being in my life.
Dan (12:24):
I know why you'd infect this house, slam correct.
Charles (12:27):
Yeah, absolutely yeah, that would absolutely not like.
That's not a way, it's.
I mean, I'm sure we've allinteracted with people who it's
like okay, they're just trying alittle too hard, like they are
yeah, that's, and that was mytake on the introducing yourself
all over the coffee shop.
Dan (12:43):
I was just like yeah, I mean we.
We've talked about the idea ofcold approaching in dating
relationships, where it's likenow, the other thing I was
thinking too is I feel like awoman can get away with that a
little bit more than a guy couldin society.
I feel like like talking to acouple, like engaging and having
(13:03):
a conversation with a couple,engaging with a barista or other
people, like that I feel.
I mean, I just feel like it's alittle bit less threatening,
it's a little bit less weird,because I feel women have just
this feeling that they are moresocial creatures, they're more,
they're looking and they connectbetter.
They have better conversations,better communication skills
(13:26):
than men, and I feel it's alittle bit more natural for
women to to kind of congregateand build communities around
them and again, this just can bemy skewed view Whereas men when
they do that, it's a little bitI don't know it, just it just
seems, for whatever reason, justfeels a little bit weirder for
me if a guy did that versus awoman.
Charles (13:50):
Yeah, there is more potential for predation by a man
than by a woman, meaning okay,what is this guy trying to get
from me?
Is it a financial scam?
Is it sex?
It's like what is it that thisperson might?
Which of my resources mightthis person threaten?
Like why are they initiatingwith me?
Dan (14:07):
Yeah, and she mentions the other.
Another way to go about this isto join group classes.
Yes, through group activity,and then yeah.
Charles (14:16):
That's what I count as the.
The antidote to the maleloneliness epidemic is find
something you care enough aboutto get to become an expert at it
and have it be a some sort of asocial activity, and then you
won't be lonely anymore.
Yeah, If you get good atsomething that other people are
interested in, then your sociallife will take care of itself.
(14:37):
I mean, I would say, is youdon't even need to be good
before you join one of thesegroups and you become good,
exactly, but you bring enoughpassion about it that you're
willing to spend the time thatit takes to get good right.
Because, yeah, whether it's arun group or dungeons and
dragons group or whatever it is,yeah, if you put in the reps to
be the person who really knowswhat they're doing, then people
will want to be around you andyou're there, I think, with the
(14:58):
intent of enjoying yourself andgetting into that activity,
rather than this.
Dan (15:03):
I'm looking to connect, like if you connect as a side, a
side benefit from that, that'sgreat, but you're not there just
to make connections.
Charles (15:11):
Right, right, whether that's friends or trying to meet
girls or whatever, yes, I had aguy.
Dan (15:15):
We went, we were down in South Florida and we did an
outdoor yoga class, which wasreally cool, and one of the guys
in the class just startedtalking to me hey, have you been
here before, ask questions,whatever.
And it was a little bit oddbecause nobody else is really
talking.
Whatever turns out, he's afinancial advisor, a financial
planner, and he's looking forclients.
So there was a little bitulterior motive there.
(15:37):
It took me a little coupleminutes to figure it out, but
yeah, so clearly he was there.
He was not there for the yoga.
Charles (15:44):
I'd be, I would be living.
Oh, I'd be so angry.
Dan (15:46):
But it's hard to cause.
He was nice, I you can't be.
I don't feel like I could beangry about it, so yeah, I would
.
Charles (15:54):
I'll have to watch out for that.
If I ever do an outdoor yogaclass, Somebody starts talking
to me.
So what line of work are you in?
Dan (16:00):
It wasn't quite that it didn't start out that way.
That's not what I would.
Charles (16:04):
Okay, I see Pretending to be nice, I immediately be
like oh so are you in acommission based sale?
Dan (16:08):
commission based industry.
Just starting out in anindustry looking to build your
client base?
Charles (16:13):
Yeah, yeah, gross, yeah .
So I would say, yeah, the heridea of cold approaching people.
I mean, yeah, again, I wouldlike somebody who, some guy who
just saw me in public anddecided to strike up a
conversation with me.
(16:33):
It's like, okay, that's goodfor you that you're willing to
do that, but the fact thatyou're willing to do that tells
me that you're not the kind ofperson I'm going to be friends
with, because none of my friendswould do that.
Dan (16:49):
None of my friends would go out on a fishing for friends
expedition by cold, depreshingstrangers.
And do you think that's becausethat subliminally communicates
a message of desperation andneed and putting too much
emphasis on relationships ratherthan doing your own thing?
Charles (17:01):
Yeah, absolutely, it's an attitude of I'm going to go
out and make friends.
Yeah, it's like.
Yeah.
I mean to say like yeah, I'malso not friends with any guys
who are like I'm gonna go outand get dates, like I'm gonna go
out and just live my fuckinglife and what happens that's me,
that's my friends, that's howwe are.
Dan (17:20):
and so the idea of reading this book or one of the other
books and mean what she'stalking about is what Glover
refers to as being a geek withtechnique In that respect yeah,
I think her whole point here isthat it is more difficult as
adults to make friends andcreate friendships and don't if
somebody kind of fades away fromyou that you've been friends
(17:43):
with, don't freak out becausethey've got other things going
on in their life that you don'tknow about.
It could be they could bedealing with an aging parent,
they could be dealing withproblems at work, so I know one
of the things she's talkingabout is, if somebody doesn't
text you back that you've beenfriends with, let them.
Let the people be.
Don't force them to be yourfriend and don't hold these
expectations.
Charles (18:04):
Don't think of them as an enemy.
Dan (18:05):
Yeah.
Charles (18:06):
And I agree with that part.
I and I also agree with whatshe says about some.
Friendships are meant for aseason, not for forever.
Yeah, that's the point and thething is yeah, it's.
I mean, this is one of thereasons.
On the business side, I don't.
I don't have contracts with myclients, because I never want to
be in a position where one ofmy clients is like, oh, I really
(18:26):
don't want to work with Charlesanymore, but I guess I have to,
and you don't want that.
In your friendships, you know,or in your romantic
relationships, you don't wantpeople to be in a position where
it's like, I mean, even thinkabout it in a marriage like, oh,
I wish I could leave Charles,but I'm dependent on him for my
finances, so I can't, I gottastay in this marriage.
It was like I don't, I wouldn'twant that.
It's like okay, you decided youneed to go.
(18:48):
Let's figure out a way that youcan go, cause I don't wanna, I
don't want you stuck here, causeyou don't think you'll be able
to eat if you're not still mywife.
So, yeah, yeah, I, and I thinkit's also important to remember
your friendships change or end,because really all your
relationships change or endbecause they're supposed to,
(19:10):
because they've gotten to thepoint where one side is not
bringing or providing enoughvalue for the other side.
And then sometimes you canreconnect, you can have a
breakup or a friend breakupwhere you go apart, and that
doesn't mean that you're nevergoing to talk to that person
again or you may never have afriendship or a relationship
(19:30):
with that person again, but it'sjust like that relationship as
it currently existed, yeah, ranits course and it had to end
because there were new thingsfor you to spend your time and
your attention and your efforton.
Dan (19:43):
Right, yeah, and yeah, the value that you are just most of
in mind.
It's not that you aren'tbringing value, it's just maybe
that value isn't as useful orwhat that person needs at that
time.
Charles (19:54):
So it'll be the kind of value that they're looking for
Exactly.
Yeah, there's they're lookingto.
Whether consciously orunconsciously, they're looking
to grow in a new direction.
That doesn't make sense forthem to be your friend right now
.
Dan (20:06):
Yeah, I mean it happened when we graduated college.
A lot of our friends that werein serious relationships, they
wanted to move on, get married,have kids right away, and a lot
of other, a lot of our otherfriends.
We didn't want to do that, andso they, of course, weren't
around to hang out as muchanymore.
Those friendships went away forthe most part.
Charles (20:22):
Yeah, it's normal, yeah , and I would say, if that is a
source of stress or negativefeelings, look, I don't think
anybody's meant to not have anyfriends, but you're also not
meant to constantly ruminate andbe in a constant state of
grieving because friendships goaway.
(20:43):
And that's part of what shesays in this chapter is learning
the context of, yeah, yourfriends are not like.
Not every friend is going to bea lifelong friend.
I mean, I don't have any light,I don't have any.
I'm not friends with anybodynow that I was friends with in
elementary school.
Dan (21:01):
Yeah.
Charles (21:02):
And I spend no time thinking about that or being sad
about it.
It's just the way that it goes.
Yeah, and so if you'reconstantly ruminating over
friendships that ended or youdon't have enough friends,
that's when you start.
You should start doing someself-analysis.
What is it that?
If I had what I think that Iwant, how would my life be
(21:25):
different?
And then, okay, well, what isthe thing that I really because
I mean what most of us are notlooking for is I need to have a
dozen close friends that I goout to dinner with every weekend
.
To some people, that might soundreally appealing, like, oh,
I've got this Friday nightdinner group and we go out every
Friday for dinner.
For me, I'd be like, no, I'mnot going to.
(21:45):
That would get in the way of mehaving the life I want to have.
Right, the obligation of everyFriday night, my, my week, my,
my Friday nights are alreadyplanned for me because we get on
the group text and we figureout where we're going to go and
we go there every, and we go tothis, we go try a new restaurant
together every Friday.
It's like, yeah, but what if Iwant to do something else on
Friday?
What if I want to travel forsix weeks and I'm going to be
(22:06):
gone for six, right Like I getthat.
That might appeal to somepeople, that would not appeal to
me, and okay.
Well, so what about thatappeals to you?
What's the real thing thatappeals to you about that and
how could you get that anotherway?
You don't currently have it, Iwould say.
She seems, I mean the fact thatshe wrote three chapters on
adult friendship means shethinks about friendship a lot
(22:29):
more than I do, and she's herstate seems to be swayed,
positively or negatively, a lotmore by her adult friendships
than mine would be.
I'm not saying that's wrong.
What I'm saying is the way shetalks about it is weird, at
least to me.
And so, yeah, I you can.
I think it's important to havefriends as an adult.
(22:49):
I think it's important torecognize that the friendships
as an adult will be differentthan the friendships you made as
a kid.
But, yeah, the the impact thatnot having your friendships go
the way that you want them to go, or that you think you want
them to go the way she talksabout it, and I imagine there
are people that probably haveread this book and really
(23:09):
identify like I felt the samething that mel's felt, but
that's not me and so it's hardfor me to.
I would encourage people tojust focus on the positive
things in your life and the wayyou like spending your time and
engage in activities that youenjoy, that have a social
component, and you can, like me,just not really focus on the
(23:33):
friendship building aspect andjust kind of let it happen.
But you know, I guess if you'rea super extrovert and you don't
like spending time alone andstuff, then maybe that's not
good enough for you.
I don't know.
Yeah, but I mean, you're notreally spending a lot of time in
deliberate friendship building,are you?
Dan (23:46):
No.
Charles (23:47):
And do you know anybody in either our separate or
overlapping friendship circlesthat you that has talked about
friendship in the way that shedoes?
No, yeah, neither do.
Dan (23:57):
I no, but maybe that's because of you track the kind of
people that you are to you andthat's just not the kind of
people we know or we surroundourselves with Right.
Charles (24:09):
Yeah, I've never found myself either being alone at
home or like as being alone athome, either wishing oh, I wish
I had somebody I could call tohang out with, or I wish I had
somebody I could call to talkabout my problems.
That's not a place I spend mytime.
And if it is a place you spendyour time, it's like, yeah, I
guess I could see why.
If you're spending timethinking, oh, I wish there was
(24:32):
somebody in my life that couldmeet whatever this need is, then
yeah, I get why you would feelthat way, but that, yeah, that
doesn't occur to me the time I'malone is usually time that I
find peaceful and enjoyable.
Dan (24:46):
Yeah.
Charles (24:47):
And the time I'm with my friends is also time that I
find peaceful and enjoyable, andif either of those times are
the time you're spending withyour friends or your partner, or
alone, if you're not gettingpeace and enjoyment out of those
times, then it's time to startasking some difficult questions
and seeing what you might needto change up in your life.
(25:07):
So anyway, that's the way I seeit.
I think if, yeah, if you'redissatisfied with your
friendships, then maybe there'ssome resources in chapters 11,
12, and 13 that could help youcome up with some ideas.
But I would say, anotherapproach to take that she
doesn't talk about is askyourself what could I do or
change so that my, the status ofmy friendships is not a source
(25:30):
of pain for me, like, what couldyou change about your life or
about yourself that you wouldn'tbe looking to your adult
friendships as this source oflack or source of need?
Dan (25:44):
Yeah.
Charles (25:45):
Because I, my friendships, complement my life.
They don't define it and whenthey go away, they don't destroy
it.
They're just icing on the cake,so to speak.
Yeah, that's a good, goodanalogy.
So, anyway, that's the way Ifeel about these chapters In the
next ones we're going to talkabout.
The very next one is somethingabout how you, when you want
(26:06):
somebody to change, and how youdeal with that, and what the
negative, unintendedconsequences are of living a
life where you're thinking toyourself boy, I wish they would
change.
Dan (26:17):
And yeah, and trying to get them to change, even in loving
ways, what the negative sideeffects of that are.
Charles (26:27):
Yeah, I'll be interested to see how her
approach might differ from BJFogg's approach, because he does
have a chapter or two in TinyHabits about how you can get
other people to change whatthey're doing and I wonder if
him and her will be in agreementor if they'll have a different
philosophy to getting people.
So I'll probably have torevisit tiny habits a little bit
(26:47):
before we talk about it,because I remember when we went
through that book thinking someof this sounds pretty good, some
of it sounds a littlemanipulative.
Dan (26:56):
Yeah.
Charles (26:57):
And so I'll be curious to see how I, if I feel, if I
like her methodology better thanhis.
So we'll see.
All right, thanks, dan.
We'll stop there, be curious tosee how I, if I feel, if I like
her methodology better than his.
So we'll see.
All right, thanks, dan, we'llstop there and I'll talk to you
next time, see ya, hey, thanksfor sticking with us for the
whole episode, dan, and Icertainly appreciate it.
Again, you can check outmindfullymasculinecom for all of
our episodes, audio and videofiles, as well as anything else
(27:26):
we feel like sharing, and nextweek we'll be back with another
episode about trying to get thepeople around you to change
Whether you should do it, howyou should do it, etc.
Thanks, and we'll talk to youthen.
Loneliness, to me, is a byproduct of mediocrity.
You're lonely because you don'thave something to offer that
people want.
And, just like when we talkedabout any of our books on dating
, like Atomic Attraction or theMan's Guide to Women or what was
(00:20):
Glover's book Date Essentialsfor Men, a lot of them refer to
the dating market and similarly,we participate in friendship
markets and attention markets,and all that means is there's
supply and there's demand, andif you want the thing, that is,
(00:41):
if you want a resource that isnot unlimited, then you have to
figure out how to allocate youreffort to get the thing that you
need, whether that is food,shelter, stock, relationships,
friendships, whatever and if youare not bringing enough value
to the table that someone elseis willing to sacrifice their
(01:02):
time and attention to get someof your value, then you're going
to find yourself lonely.
Yeah, welcome to the MindfullyMasculine Podcast.
This is Charles, and today we'retalking about adult friendship.
For some people it's a constantsource of stress.
We're covering three chaptersfrom the let them theory about
why making friends as a kid wasautomatic, why some friendships
fade and how to create new onesas an adult.
(01:25):
Along the way, we'll dig intothe great scattering after
school and college, the hours itreally takes to build closeness
, and the idea that sometimesfriendships end because the
juice just isn't worth thesqueeze.
You'll hear our unfilteredtakes on timing, energy and
whether striking upconversations with strangers is
a bold move or a flashing neonred flag.
(01:45):
If you've ever wondered whetheradult friendships need to be
worked on at all, or you justwant permission to stop feeling
guilty when it fades thisepisode's for you, check out our
website, mindfullymasculinecom,for all of our episodes, audio
and video, and anything else wefeel like sharing.
Thanks and enjoy.
Dan (02:02):
Good morning Charles, how you doing.
Charles (02:04):
Okay, Dan, how are you?
Dan (02:06):
I am doing well.
Charles (02:07):
Let's talk about adult friendships and we're going to
cover three chapters in thisepisode from the Let them Theory
and we're going to yeah, thisis going to be interesting
because there's a lot of stuffin these three that I'm like.
I got a lot of opinions, sowe'll start with the idea.
Let's start a little bit abouthow our friendships started and
(02:28):
came about when we were kids.
Dan (02:30):
Yeah.
Charles (02:30):
It was all pretty much proximity based, like you were
friends with the people thatwere around you and that would
be a function of your class,your school, your neighborhood,
your t-ball team, whatever.
That's how you met people andyou were just friends with the
people, some of the people thatyou met, usually not all of them
.
You wouldn't become closefriends with everybody, but you
(02:52):
would make friendships based onpeople you were around.
Dan (02:56):
Yeah, and you were around the same people all the time.
Because of school, because ofafter-curricular, after-school
activities groups, sports teams,et cetera.
Charles (03:08):
Yeah, and then, depending on whether, I mean
certainly if your family movedfor dad's job or whatever, that
could disrupt those people fromstill remaining your friends, or
if you went to a different highschool than middle school like
you went to the one in adifferent town or something like
that, that could disrupt it.
Going off to college wouldcertainly get in the way of your
(03:31):
friendships and then, aftercollege, going off to get a job
or whatever would would be afactor.
So proximity at as you getolder, proximity becomes less
and less of a reliable factor indetermining who you're going to
be friends with.
She calls that the greatscattering.
(03:51):
Then, once you find yourself inyour career, then you know as an
adult, you're spending muchmore time with your coworkers
than you are with your friendsor your family.
Daily basis, I mean, cause alot of the time you spend with
your family after you work fulltime is you sleeping, so that
doesn't really count.
So it's really just the timebefore work and the time after
work.
And so, yeah, you're morereliably going to be spending
(04:14):
time with your coworkers thanyou are with your friends and
family, certainly with yourfriends.
Dan (04:19):
Yeah.
Charles (04:19):
If you have a friend that you don't work with, then
you're only going to continuebeing their friend if you make
time to to cultivate thatrelationship.
So here's the thing I, when shetalks about the way, her
approach to friendship and thestress and loneliness that she
(04:39):
experienced, it was very hardfor me to relate to it.
I've just always assumed that Iwould stay friends with the
people I was meant to stayfriends with.
And if somebody moved orsomebody got busy or somebody
started a family, that's justthe way it's supposed to work.
Where she talks about justhaving these overwhelming
feelings of loneliness andregret and stuff like that, and
(05:00):
it's like I just don't seefriendship that way.
I don't.
That's not a struggle that MelRobbins and I share.
And the other thing is, also, Ipicked up a little bit more of
what I consider to be her lackof self-awareness, where I don't
know man, I'm trying not to besuper judgmental, but it's
(05:22):
really difficult when she talksabout this stuff.
It's like, okay, okay, well,maybe some of your friendships
are going away because you'retoo much work.
It's too much.
It takes too much effort andtoo much investment to be your
friend.
And some people, yeah, decidelike, consciously or
unconsciously, they decide okay,having mel in my life, the
(05:42):
juice is not worth the squeeze.
So let's stop makingappointments and dates to hang
out with Mel and her husband,because she's too much work to
be around.
Dan (05:51):
Yeah, and I think she talks about that a little bit in
terms of the other two pillars.
Besides the proximity, it's thetiming and energy.
So that's one of the reasonsshe mentions both our coworkers.
Yes, we're around them all thetime, but we might not make
friends and connect with thembecause the timing might be in
different stages of their life.
Yeah, like you know if they'reolder or younger they're going
(06:12):
through things, have kids, havegrown kids, exactly, and, like
you said just right there, theenergy like maybe Mel, requires
a lot more energy than otherpeople.
Charles (06:21):
I didn't like her use of the word energy, because
energy can be such a catch allphrase like like vibes.
It's like okay, well, what areyou really saying here?
It's like.
Dan (06:31):
Yeah, it could also be.
Yeah, it could also be vibes.
Energy could be vibes.
Like I don't like the vibeshe's giving off.
Charles (06:35):
Yeah, like, yeah, like we talked and she is just.
She's too much for me.
Yeah, and as someone who's beenreferred to as too much before.
Like I get that's not thegreatest way to talk about
(06:55):
people, but he is too.
She is too much for me.
She would require way too muchinvestment for what she could
possibly return.
Dan (06:58):
Yeah, yeah, I can see that she does mention that in chapter
13, that she that she wasn'tthat proud of the way she
behaved with her couple friendsand she even called herself a
complete bitch, if you rememberthat I don't know from chapter
13 about how she was acting withthose couple friends.
So yeah, I think up until thatchapter I agree with you.
(07:19):
I think in that chapter.
I think she recognized how shewas basically behaving like a
child when it came to herfriendships with those other
three couples.
That she had said and she evensays things like I wouldn't want
me around either.
So how she acts now I have noidea, but I think it goes to
show.
I mean, I think the point shewas making was, you don't know.
(07:40):
First of all, the energy.
Charles (07:42):
Yeah, you could be bringing some negative energy or
vibes to those friendships andrelationships and then all of a
sudden, the proximity and timingstarts to they start to kind of
pull away, and so now theproximity isn't going to be
there anymore either, becauseyou're not bringing in the kind
of energy that people are goingto want to be around yeah, and I
(08:04):
mentioned to you I wanted to doa short series on the male
loneliness epidemic and I didreach out to our friend rob and
he said he would be down to joinus for that I might get back to
him.
We have a little bit betterhandle on the schedule when
we're going to be finishing thisbook.
I want to spend a coupleepisodes on that, but I'll get
into a little bit of my thoughtson it right now.
(08:24):
Which is on that?
But I'll get into a little bitof my thoughts on it right now.
Which is and I think this wouldapply to Mel and her
difficulties that she's had withadult friendships Loneliness to
me is a by-product ofmediocrity.
You're lonely because you don'thave something to offer that
people want and just like in in.
(08:44):
When we talked about any of ourbooks on dating, like Atomic
Attraction or the Man's Guide toWomen or what was Glover's book
Date Essentials for Men a lotof them refer to the dating
market and similarly weparticipate in friendship
markets and attention marketsand all that means is there's
(09:08):
supply and there's demand and ifyou want the thing that is, if
you want a resource that is notunlimited, then you have to
figure out how to allocate youreffort to get the thing that you
need, whether that is food,shelter, stock relationships,
friendships, whatever.
And if you are not bringingenough value to the table that
(09:33):
someone else is willing tosacrifice their time and
attention to get some of yourvalue, then you're going to find
yourself lonely, yeah.
Dan (09:40):
Somehow saw one woman that she connected with briefly in
the town and she was sobbing andfeeling bad for herself.
Charles (09:47):
She was out for a walk with her daughters, crying about
how lonely she was.
Dan (09:52):
And the daughters made her go up to the house, knock on the
door and introduce herself andsay hey is so-and-so home.
I connected with her once, yeah, or the other story of her
going to a coffee shop andintroducing herself to the
barista as well as the couplenext to her that had been
sitting there the whole time.
I was dying to hear your takeon her suggestions on on getting
(10:17):
put going first.
Whole let them theory is let mego first and ridiculous
compliment somebody.
say hi to somebody I wasoutraged as I thought you were
would be yeah yeah.
Charles (10:31):
So let's start with the first one.
If you are a grown person andyou're going for a nice evening
stroll in your neighborhood withyour adult children and they
have to comfort youruncontrollable sobbing that you
don't have any friends, you needto get your shit together.
Like seriously, who, what goodperson, is going to put that
burden on their daughters?
Like let's walk around and I'mgoing to cry to you about how I
(10:54):
don't have any friends.
Dan (10:55):
Well, daughters weren't having it, so that's why they
dragged her up to the house andwas like hey, here's your friend
and then she introduces herself.
Charles (11:02):
The husband answers the door and she introduces the
daughter, like, introduces heras this is my mom.
She's really lonely, shedoesn't have any friends.
If you that introduction isself-selecting, the only kind of
person that would be interestedin being your mom's friend
after that introduction issomeone who also has something
wrong with them.
Interesting, interesting, Imean, think about it If you got
(11:23):
a knock on your door from somewoman and she's like this is my
husband steve.
Dan (11:28):
He's really lonely and he needs a friend now I think the
context here too is that she didmeet that woman at some point
before.
Who knows what kind ofconnection or conversation they
had.
So if I had met a guy, I had agood conversation with him, and
he knocked on his yeah and thatand that happened, it would be a
little bit weird.
A hundred percent.
Charles (11:48):
It would be the end of the story for me.
I don't care.
Dan (11:50):
I don't care.
I thought, like I legitimatelyhad a good conversation with him
, I'd be like I'd be open totalking to him once again.
I wouldn't be setting up anydates, but I'd be open to having
a conversation no, under.
Charles (12:02):
I don't care how good my initial connection with
somebody was, if my secondinteraction with them was their
kid or their spouse telling meabout how lonely they were and
how much they needed friends,I'd be like, well, you're at the
wrong house, because this, thiswhole sick family system that
you've got going on disqualifiesyou from being in my life.
Dan (12:24):
I know why you'd infect this house, slam correct.
Charles (12:27):
Yeah, absolutely yeah, that would absolutely not like.
That's not a way, it's.
I mean, I'm sure we've allinteracted with people who it's
like okay, they're just trying alittle too hard, like they are
yeah, that's, and that was mytake on the introducing yourself
all over the coffee shop.
Dan (12:43):
I was just like yeah, I mean we.
We've talked about the idea ofcold approaching in dating
relationships, where it's likenow, the other thing I was
thinking too is I feel like awoman can get away with that a
little bit more than a guy couldin society.
I feel like like talking to acouple, like engaging and having
(13:03):
a conversation with a couple,engaging with a barista or other
people, like that I feel.
I mean, I just feel like it's alittle bit less threatening,
it's a little bit less weird,because I feel women have just
this feeling that they are moresocial creatures, they're more,
they're looking and they connectbetter.
They have better conversations,better communication skills
(13:26):
than men, and I feel it's alittle bit more natural for
women to to kind of congregateand build communities around
them and again, this just can bemy skewed view Whereas men when
they do that, it's a little bitI don't know it, just it just
seems, for whatever reason, justfeels a little bit weirder for
me if a guy did that versus awoman.
Charles (13:50):
Yeah, there is more potential for predation by a man
than by a woman, meaning okay,what is this guy trying to get
from me?
Is it a financial scam?
Is it sex?
It's like what is it that thisperson might?
Which of my resources mightthis person threaten?
Like why are they initiatingwith me?
Dan (14:07):
Yeah, and she mentions the other.
Another way to go about this isto join group classes.
Yes, through group activity,and then yeah.
Charles (14:16):
That's what I count as the.
The antidote to the maleloneliness epidemic is find
something you care enough aboutto get to become an expert at it
and have it be a some sort of asocial activity, and then you
won't be lonely anymore.
Yeah, If you get good atsomething that other people are
interested in, then your sociallife will take care of itself.
(14:37):
I mean, I would say, is youdon't even need to be good
before you join one of thesegroups and you become good,
exactly, but you bring enoughpassion about it that you're
willing to spend the time thatit takes to get good right.
Because, yeah, whether it's arun group or dungeons and
dragons group or whatever it is,yeah, if you put in the reps to
be the person who really knowswhat they're doing, then people
will want to be around you andyou're there, I think, with the
(14:58):
intent of enjoying yourself andgetting into that activity,
rather than this.
Dan (15:03):
I'm looking to connect, like if you connect as a side, a
side benefit from that, that'sgreat, but you're not there just
to make connections.
Charles (15:11):
Right, right, whether that's friends or trying to meet
girls or whatever, yes, I had aguy.
Dan (15:15):
We went, we were down in South Florida and we did an
outdoor yoga class, which wasreally cool, and one of the guys
in the class just startedtalking to me hey, have you been
here before, ask questions,whatever.
And it was a little bit oddbecause nobody else is really
talking.
Whatever turns out, he's afinancial advisor, a financial
planner, and he's looking forclients.
So there was a little bitulterior motive there.
(15:37):
It took me a little coupleminutes to figure it out, but
yeah, so clearly he was there.
He was not there for the yoga.
Charles (15:44):
I'd be, I would be living.
Oh, I'd be so angry.
Dan (15:46):
But it's hard to cause.
He was nice, I you can't be.
I don't feel like I could beangry about it, so yeah, I would
.
Charles (15:54):
I'll have to watch out for that.
If I ever do an outdoor yogaclass, Somebody starts talking
to me.
So what line of work are you in?
Dan (16:00):
It wasn't quite that it didn't start out that way.
That's not what I would.
Charles (16:04):
Okay, I see Pretending to be nice, I immediately be
like oh so are you in acommission based sale?
Dan (16:08):
commission based industry.
Just starting out in anindustry looking to build your
client base?
Charles (16:13):
Yeah, yeah, gross, yeah .
So I would say, yeah, the heridea of cold approaching people.
I mean, yeah, again, I wouldlike somebody who, some guy who
just saw me in public anddecided to strike up a
conversation with me.
(16:33):
It's like, okay, that's goodfor you that you're willing to
do that, but the fact thatyou're willing to do that tells
me that you're not the kind ofperson I'm going to be friends
with, because none of my friendswould do that.
Dan (16:49):
None of my friends would go out on a fishing for friends
expedition by cold, depreshingstrangers.
And do you think that's becausethat subliminally communicates
a message of desperation andneed and putting too much
emphasis on relationships ratherthan doing your own thing?
Charles (17:01):
Yeah, absolutely, it's an attitude of I'm going to go
out and make friends.
Yeah, it's like.
Yeah.
I mean to say like yeah, I'malso not friends with any guys
who are like I'm gonna go outand get dates, like I'm gonna go
out and just live my fuckinglife and what happens that's me,
that's my friends, that's howwe are.
Dan (17:20):
and so the idea of reading this book or one of the other
books and mean what she'stalking about is what Glover
refers to as being a geek withtechnique In that respect yeah,
I think her whole point here isthat it is more difficult as
adults to make friends andcreate friendships and don't if
somebody kind of fades away fromyou that you've been friends
(17:43):
with, don't freak out becausethey've got other things going
on in their life that you don'tknow about.
It could be they could bedealing with an aging parent,
they could be dealing withproblems at work, so I know one
of the things she's talkingabout is, if somebody doesn't
text you back that you've beenfriends with, let them.
Let the people be.
Don't force them to be yourfriend and don't hold these
expectations.
Charles (18:04):
Don't think of them as an enemy.
Dan (18:05):
Yeah.
Charles (18:06):
And I agree with that part.
I and I also agree with whatshe says about some.
Friendships are meant for aseason, not for forever.
Yeah, that's the point and thething is yeah, it's.
I mean, this is one of thereasons.
On the business side, I don't.
I don't have contracts with myclients, because I never want to
be in a position where one ofmy clients is like, oh, I really
(18:26):
don't want to work with Charlesanymore, but I guess I have to,
and you don't want that.
In your friendships, you know,or in your romantic
relationships, you don't wantpeople to be in a position where
it's like, I mean, even thinkabout it in a marriage like, oh,
I wish I could leave Charles,but I'm dependent on him for my
finances, so I can't, I gottastay in this marriage.
It was like I don't, I wouldn'twant that.
It's like okay, you decided youneed to go.
(18:48):
Let's figure out a way that youcan go, cause I don't wanna, I
don't want you stuck here, causeyou don't think you'll be able
to eat if you're not still mywife.
So, yeah, yeah, I, and I thinkit's also important to remember
your friendships change or end,because really all your
relationships change or endbecause they're supposed to,
(19:10):
because they've gotten to thepoint where one side is not
bringing or providing enoughvalue for the other side.
And then sometimes you canreconnect, you can have a
breakup or a friend breakupwhere you go apart, and that
doesn't mean that you're nevergoing to talk to that person
again or you may never have afriendship or a relationship
(19:30):
with that person again, but it'sjust like that relationship as
it currently existed, yeah, ranits course and it had to end
because there were new thingsfor you to spend your time and
your attention and your efforton.
Dan (19:43):
Right, yeah, and yeah, the value that you are just most of
in mind.
It's not that you aren'tbringing value, it's just maybe
that value isn't as useful orwhat that person needs at that
time.
Charles (19:54):
So it'll be the kind of value that they're looking for
Exactly.
Yeah, there's they're lookingto.
Whether consciously orunconsciously, they're looking
to grow in a new direction.
That doesn't make sense forthem to be your friend right now
.
Dan (20:06):
Yeah, I mean it happened when we graduated college.
A lot of our friends that werein serious relationships, they
wanted to move on, get married,have kids right away, and a lot
of other, a lot of our otherfriends.
We didn't want to do that, andso they, of course, weren't
around to hang out as muchanymore.
Those friendships went away forthe most part.
Charles (20:22):
Yeah, it's normal, yeah , and I would say, if that is a
source of stress or negativefeelings, look, I don't think
anybody's meant to not have anyfriends, but you're also not
meant to constantly ruminate andbe in a constant state of
grieving because friendships goaway.
(20:43):
And that's part of what shesays in this chapter is learning
the context of, yeah, yourfriends are not like.
Not every friend is going to bea lifelong friend.
I mean, I don't have any light,I don't have any.
I'm not friends with anybodynow that I was friends with in
elementary school.
Dan (21:01):
Yeah.
Charles (21:02):
And I spend no time thinking about that or being sad
about it.
It's just the way that it goes.
Yeah, and so if you'reconstantly ruminating over
friendships that ended or youdon't have enough friends,
that's when you start.
You should start doing someself-analysis.
What is it that?
If I had what I think that Iwant, how would my life be
(21:25):
different?
And then, okay, well, what isthe thing that I really because
I mean what most of us are notlooking for is I need to have a
dozen close friends that I goout to dinner with every weekend
.
To some people, that might soundreally appealing, like, oh,
I've got this Friday nightdinner group and we go out every
Friday for dinner.
For me, I'd be like, no, I'mnot going to.
(21:45):
That would get in the way of mehaving the life I want to have.
Right, the obligation of everyFriday night, my, my week, my,
my Friday nights are alreadyplanned for me because we get on
the group text and we figureout where we're going to go and
we go there every, and we go tothis, we go try a new restaurant
together every Friday.
It's like, yeah, but what if Iwant to do something else on
Friday?
What if I want to travel forsix weeks and I'm going to be
(22:06):
gone for six, right Like I getthat.
That might appeal to somepeople, that would not appeal to
me, and okay.
Well, so what about thatappeals to you?
What's the real thing thatappeals to you about that and
how could you get that anotherway?
You don't currently have it, Iwould say.
She seems, I mean the fact thatshe wrote three chapters on
adult friendship means shethinks about friendship a lot
(22:29):
more than I do, and she's herstate seems to be swayed,
positively or negatively, a lotmore by her adult friendships
than mine would be.
I'm not saying that's wrong.
What I'm saying is the way shetalks about it is weird, at
least to me.
And so, yeah, I you can.
I think it's important to havefriends as an adult.
(22:49):
I think it's important torecognize that the friendships
as an adult will be differentthan the friendships you made as
a kid.
But, yeah, the the impact thatnot having your friendships go
the way that you want them to go, or that you think you want
them to go the way she talksabout it, and I imagine there
are people that probably haveread this book and really
(23:09):
identify like I felt the samething that mel's felt, but
that's not me and so it's hardfor me to.
I would encourage people tojust focus on the positive
things in your life and the wayyou like spending your time and
engage in activities that youenjoy, that have a social
component, and you can, like me,just not really focus on the
(23:33):
friendship building aspect andjust kind of let it happen.
But you know, I guess if you'rea super extrovert and you don't
like spending time alone andstuff, then maybe that's not
good enough for you.
I don't know.
Yeah, but I mean, you're notreally spending a lot of time in
deliberate friendship building,are you?
Dan (23:46):
No.
Charles (23:47):
And do you know anybody in either our separate or
overlapping friendship circlesthat you that has talked about
friendship in the way that shedoes?
No, yeah, neither do.
Dan (23:57):
I no, but maybe that's because of you track the kind of
people that you are to you andthat's just not the kind of
people we know or we surroundourselves with Right.
Charles (24:09):
Yeah, I've never found myself either being alone at
home or like as being alone athome, either wishing oh, I wish
I had somebody I could call tohang out with, or I wish I had
somebody I could call to talkabout my problems.
That's not a place I spend mytime.
And if it is a place you spendyour time, it's like, yeah, I
guess I could see why.
If you're spending timethinking, oh, I wish there was
(24:32):
somebody in my life that couldmeet whatever this need is, then
yeah, I get why you would feelthat way, but that, yeah, that
doesn't occur to me the time I'malone is usually time that I
find peaceful and enjoyable.
Dan (24:46):
Yeah.
Charles (24:47):
And the time I'm with my friends is also time that I
find peaceful and enjoyable, andif either of those times are
the time you're spending withyour friends or your partner, or
alone, if you're not gettingpeace and enjoyment out of those
times, then it's time to startasking some difficult questions
and seeing what you might needto change up in your life.
(25:07):
So anyway, that's the way I seeit.
I think if, yeah, if you'redissatisfied with your
friendships, then maybe there'ssome resources in chapters 11,
12, and 13 that could help youcome up with some ideas.
But I would say, anotherapproach to take that she
doesn't talk about is askyourself what could I do or
change so that my, the status ofmy friendships is not a source
(25:30):
of pain for me, like, what couldyou change about your life or
about yourself that you wouldn'tbe looking to your adult
friendships as this source oflack or source of need?
Dan (25:44):
Yeah.
Charles (25:45):
Because I, my friendships, complement my life.
They don't define it and whenthey go away, they don't destroy
it.
They're just icing on the cake,so to speak.
Yeah, that's a good, goodanalogy.
So, anyway, that's the way Ifeel about these chapters In the
next ones we're going to talkabout.
The very next one is somethingabout how you, when you want
(26:06):
somebody to change, and how youdeal with that, and what the
negative, unintendedconsequences are of living a
life where you're thinking toyourself boy, I wish they would
change.
Dan (26:17):
And yeah, and trying to get them to change, even in loving
ways, what the negative sideeffects of that are.
Charles (26:27):
Yeah, I'll be interested to see how her
approach might differ from BJFogg's approach, because he does
have a chapter or two in TinyHabits about how you can get
other people to change whatthey're doing and I wonder if
him and her will be in agreementor if they'll have a different
philosophy to getting people.
So I'll probably have torevisit tiny habits a little bit
(26:47):
before we talk about it,because I remember when we went
through that book thinking someof this sounds pretty good, some
of it sounds a littlemanipulative.
Dan (26:56):
Yeah.
Charles (26:57):
And so I'll be curious to see how I, if I feel, if I
like her methodology better thanhis.
So we'll see.
All right, thanks, dan.
We'll stop there, be curious tosee how I, if I feel, if I like
her methodology better than his.
So we'll see.
All right, thanks, dan, we'llstop there and I'll talk to you
next time, see ya, hey, thanksfor sticking with us for the
whole episode, dan, and Icertainly appreciate it.
Again, you can check outmindfullymasculinecom for all of
our episodes, audio and videofiles, as well as anything else
(27:26):
we feel like sharing, and nextweek we'll be back with another
episode about trying to get thepeople around you to change
Whether you should do it, howyou should do it, etc.
Thanks, and we'll talk to youthen.
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