August 25, 2025 • 39 mins
In this episode of Mindfully Masculine, Charles and Dan dive into Chapters 16 and 17 of Mel Robbins’ The Let Them Theory: The More You Rescue, The More They Sink and How to Provide Support the Right Way.
They explore why stepping in to “rescue” often backfires, how shame and denial complicate real support, and why presence and patience are more powerful than quick fixes. Along the way, they share stories about hidden struggles, money boundaries, and what it means to be a calm, nonjudgmental presence in a crisis.
Listeners will also hear a candid discussion of “harmful help” versus healthy support, the psychology of ignoring warnings until consequences hit, and how frameworks from Gretchen Rubin and BJ Fogg can shape motivation and lasting change.
If you’ve ever felt torn between helping someone you love and protecting your own peace, this conversation will help you navigate the difference between rescuing and truly supporting.
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Episode Transcript
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Charles (00:00):
Look for men that can offer a calm, nonjudgmental
presence in the midst of acrisis.
They are rare and worth theirweight in gold.
So you can turn yourself into aguy that can sit there while
somebody you care about is goingthrough something and be a calm
, nonjudgmental presence.
That is, I mean, number one.
(00:23):
The women in your life will beshocked because their dad
probably wasn't like that, theirboss probably isn't like that,
most of the people they dealwith to just say, hey, listen, I
know you're going throughsomething really tough right now
and, uh, I'm here for you tolet's talk about it.
Yeah, and let's you can tell mehow you feel, you can tell me
what's bothering you.
(00:43):
You can tell me how I may havemade it worse.
Being able to sit there andhear that without losing your
stack is really valuable andhard.
And, man, I failed at it overand over and over again.
Welcome to the MindfullyMasculine Podcast.
This is Charles.
Masculine podcast.
(01:06):
This is charles.
In this episode, we dive intochapter 16 and 17 of the let
them theory, where mel robbinstackles the hard truth about
rescuing and supporting others.
We'll explore why stepping into save someone often makes
things worse and how to shiftinto a healthier kind of support
that actually helps.
Check out our website,mindfullymasculinecom, where you
can find all of our episodes,audio and video and anything
else.
Dan and I feel like sharingthanks and enjoy hey, charles,
(01:30):
good morning that was quick.
Hey dan how you doing I'm wellwell all right.
So, uh, we're wearing the sameclothes, but we got a purple
background and that means we'rerecording another episode on the
same day, because next week I'mgonna be in texas, yeehaw
yeehaw dallas, austin, dallas,dallas yeah, dallas, for this
one that said we're uh, we'renot going to be recording next
(01:51):
week.
so we're going to talk aboutchapter 16 and 17 from the let
them theory, and really thesechapters are very similar to 14
and 15.
It's just kind of discussingthe more extreme examples of
dealing with others, behaviorand when you believe other
people around you need to changefor your good and their good.
And so when it gets, when it'sa, when the stakes are higher
(02:13):
and it's more serious, how doyou deal with it?
Yep, so that's what we're goingto talk about, which I don't
think we'll have to talk aboutvery long.
We'll reiterate some of thereiterate some of the points
that we covered from the lastepisode, which is she says you
can't want someone's healingmore than they do.
It's like, well, you can, butyou're going to be wasting your
time and your energy.
So if you're in a positionwhere you want them to change
(02:36):
more than they want to change,don't expect them to change.
Expect yourself to spend a lotof time feeling badly, resentful
, angry, but don't expect to getthe result that you're looking
for.
Dan (02:47):
Now I think a lot of our struggles come from when we
aren't willing to sit in reality.
Charles (02:53):
And.
Dan (02:54):
I think a lot of us will look at somebody else and want
them to change, and we live inthat world of we want them to be
here and they are here and weare focused on on this here and
we're not comfortable being downhere.
And if there's a way that we canget from and and let them know
that we are here with them, weaccept what they are, the
reality of it is, and we'llsupport them from underneath
(03:17):
rather than pulling them from uptop, I think that's going to be
a lot more effective, becauseyou're then not putting the
pressure of them to change andand get it done, because maybe
they don't exactly know how thatpath needs to happen, where
they need to go, and so if youkind of support from underneath
(03:38):
rather than pull from the top, Ithink it's going to be a lot
more effective.
There's a lot less pressure.
I don't.
I just kind of had that thoughtright now as you were talking
about that right, where that'swhere reality is.
You're meeting them where theyare instead of telling them or
making them feel bad for wherethey're not around her
relationship is.
Charles (03:55):
You know, one exercise I would encourage you slash her
to do uh in in our discussionsas well.
I said to her imagine how it'sgoing to feel if you're in this
exact same situation 10 yearsfrom now and you're, you know,
(04:20):
42 instead of 32.
I don't remember how old she is, but like not only are you a 42
year old woman that's stilldealing with these same problems
, but it's been grinding on youfor the last 10 years.
So what does that life looklike feel, right?
One point she brought up inthis chapter that I thought was
very valuable is you might noteven know somebody's
experiencing a struggle withsomething like addiction,
(04:42):
especially, you know, becausethey hide it so well.
Yeah, so especially drinkingdrugs, gambling, something like
that.
It's like you're not by the timeyou know about it.
It's like, okay, this is a fivealarm fire, and so you may, you
may be getting into somethingalready when it's way, way on
down the road where it's like,okay, there are some major
consequences.
And then, if you get surprisedby it, your initial okay, there
(05:05):
are some major consequences.
And then, if you get surprisedby it, your initial instinct to
rescue them may be even strongerand you're like, oh no, you
know this, this person has to.
You know they need to come upwith twenty thousand dollars to
by tomorrow they're going tolose their house.
It's like, okay, well, I betterget twenty thousand dollars out
of my ira so I can help themwith this.
When you know if, if this kindof an urgent thing comes to you,
like right on the they'rethey're only asking for help
(05:26):
because it's going to happentomorrow, then you're going to
be even more pressured, to feellike I've got to step in and
save them.
Dan (05:33):
Yeah, and the the issue here with with all of that, I
think they've been hiding it forso long from from the world
that, yeah, as you said, it'sgoing to be a really big
emergency.
At that point it's going to beprobably beyond the scope of
what you can do, even if in anideal world, you were able to
change them.
(05:53):
It's important to also not justwipe your hands of it and back
off, but just let them know thatyou're there to support them.
And maybe it's just a phonecall, it's not a I'm gonna
dismiss this person and, and youknow, kind of erase them out of
my life.
Maybe it's you just kind ofkeeping up with the phone call
occasionally, just saying you'rethere for them.
(06:14):
I think in one of thesechapters she talked about how
she had really bad postpartumdepression with one of her kids
where she couldn't even be alonewith the infant for the first
four months of its life.
Like that is some serious, likejust her and her baby, and I
think it was in-laws.
What did you take?
Charles (06:28):
away from that?
Was that as in, she's going tohurt herself for the baby or
she's just going to, like, loseher mind, and just you know?
Dan (06:35):
I wasn't sure.
I wasn't sure if it was likehurting the baby or completely
being so spaced out that a babywould be suffering and not
getting it what it needs interms of nutrition or attention
or whatever it is.
So I'm not sure.
When she says she's she couldn'tbe alone with the baby, um, I
I'm I'm leaning more towards shewouldn't be able to properly
take care of it, not that she'sputting a pillow over its face,
(06:57):
kind of thing right, yeah so,but in either case, what she
said was her in-laws or herparents would come and basically
go look, we're, you know we'regoing to take you, we're, we're,
we're taking everybody out,we're going to a park, we're
going to an activity.
So it wasn't necessarily hey,you need to fix your depression.
It was we're going to supportthis and we're going to provide
(07:20):
activities.
Yes, I feel like there's maybea little bit of force there to
like get her out of the houseand things, but it wasn't a
direct hey, you need to changethis behavior.
It was I'm going to provide thesupports.
We're going to give you a wholebunch of paper plates and bowls
and dishes, and so you don'thave to do dishes while you're
learning how to take care of thebaby and you're already
(07:41):
overwhelmed with everything.
Charles (07:42):
That's how I support myself.
Even though I don't have a baby, I always eat off of paper.
Dan (07:46):
Yeah, listen I'm this close to switching over myself
because I'm like, how I'm oneperson in this house, dixie, how
am I dixie ultra, that's theway to go am I?
Generating so many dirty dishes.
It's like, oh my god yeah, it'suh.
Charles (08:00):
What could argue?
Dan (08:01):
and I'm gonna dishwasher it's.
Charles (08:02):
It's a bit wasteful to make produce that much garbage.
But man, yeah, I don't.
I don't even own non paper.
I buy Dixie Ultra solos.
Make solo makes a pretty goodproduct.
But if you're using paperplates, I say get the premium,
most expensive paper plates inin whatever that company's line
is.
Yeah, buy our best sticks.
Yeah, most expensive Dixie, themost expensive dixie, the most
(08:23):
expensive solo, and you'llyou'll be, because when it comes
to like I actually want to beable to cut a steak without
cutting through my paper plateand leak all over the table,
yeah, all the table for suregash in my table so yeah, buy,
buy expensive, but yeah I howdid you take, what did you think
when she said she wasn't ableto be left along with the infant
for oh, I went immediately topillow over the facts.
(08:45):
Yeah and I yeah that that mightsay more about me than it does
about her.
That's where I went.
One of the things that, uh, isinteresting and I've had some
experience with this shame anddenial can block acceptance of
health, so I of help.
I've had people come to mebefore and ask to borrow money
to get out of a financial crunch.
Dan (09:07):
Okay.
Charles (09:07):
And this is some advice , modified advice from Dave
Ramsey, which is interestingbecause now I kind of look at I
don't look at Dave Ramsey in aspositive a way as I used to,
because when I hear him talkabout personal finance, he's
very boomerish when he talksabout it.
Like you know well, just say noto yourself and just you know,
pull yourself up by thebootstraps and it's like okay,
(09:29):
can we just don't do it.
Can we have some?
Can we have someacknowledgement of the fact that
, you know, wages and inflationhave not kept in pace with each
other?
And so the idea of I'm justgoing to sock away money for a
year and then I can buy a house,that's not true now in the way
that it was true, you know, inthe 60s.
It simply is not, and hedoesn't talk in a way that
(09:52):
really acknowledges that.
But anyway, one of the thingswas somebody came to me and
they're like hey, can I borrowsome money?
I'm experiencing an issue, Icould really use your help.
Blah, blah, blah.
And I was like blah, blah, blah.
And I was like, well, numberone, no, I'm not going to loan
you money, I will just give itto you and you won't have to pay
it back.
But if you want that to happen,we're going to sit down and look
(10:14):
at your monthly budget, look atyour income, look at your
expenses and figure out how wecan make this work.
So I will give you the moneyinstead of loaning it to you.
But we're going to sit down fora couple hours and go through
this and their take the loan ortake the charity, but they're
not going to open up and say andyou know, I will accept your
(10:36):
help in solving the problem.
And I think and I'm I'm notgoing to give unless you're
willing to let me help you solvethe, the bigger problem.
I'm not just going to loan orhand you the money.
It's, it's not going to happenhere's.
You're going to, essentially,lee, I'm going to buy two hours
of your time to go over yourbudget with you and that's the
(10:57):
transaction that's going tohappen here.
And they're like thanks but nothanks.
Dan (11:00):
Right and okay.
To me that's a perfect exampleof the differences in human
beings where for somebody, forone person, asking for money is
a really big deal, it is, uh,maybe a blow to their ego.
It is very difficult to doversus, you know, and and and
(11:22):
maybe they're great at keeping abudget and that's their
experience and they've got noproblems open kimono here,
here's all, here's my spending,everything else like that
whereas other people it's veryeasy for them to ask for money
and impossible for them to openthat kimono and go, okay, this
is my and it's it's.
I think I've run into thatproblem where just assuming that
(11:45):
it's just as easy on for bothof those things, or just as
difficult for both of thosethings, as it for me, as it is
for somebody else, and that'swhere I've run into problems in
the past too, and then theoutcomes are different and also
the the level of severity thenis is misinterpreted in my mind.
So I feel like if somebody has,you know, really needs, you know
(12:07):
is going to ask me for, forhelp, for money, they really
need it, because that's how Iwould go about it, like I would,
would absolutely have to haveit if I'm going to ask for it.
But that might not have beenthe case and this may not have
even been their rock bottom.
And so you need to getcomfortable with that, realizing
that, hey, they're not at thatrock bottom, they're complaining
a lot and that's making youfeel uncomfortable because you
(12:29):
don't know how to manage that.
Or maybe you don't know how tomanage that relationship because
most of the conversations thatyou have with that person are
centered around them complainingabout just the finances.
And I've had in my past, I'vehad, conversations with family
members where I've said, in notso nice ways and I wish I could
(12:51):
go back and do that where I'vesaid, listen, I don't want to
have conversations like thisbecause I feel like this is all
we're talking about and I don'tenjoy that.
I don't want to be.
You know, I don't.
I want to have betterconversations.
And initially it was not a goodreaction and it was kind of
like a fine, we're not going totalk at all kind of thing.
That was fortunately, thank God, short-lived and now I've got a
(13:11):
much better relationship and amuch healthier relationship.
But I needed to be okay dealingwith those feelings of oh my
God, I really upset this personand I didn't want me to do that.
So again, I think it really, youknow, like you said, it comes
back down to us managing our ownemotions.
Once we figure out how to dothat, we can make much better
decisions for us and for ourrelationships moving forward.
Charles (13:35):
Yeah and yeah the.
The ability to just sit withpeople in their discomfort and
just, you know, be there forthem and say you know, listen, I
know you're struggling withthis and, like we said in the
last episode, I mean justoffering somebody, you know, I
will give you unlimited hugs andunlimited conversations while
you work, while you solve thisproblem is, in many ways, the
(13:57):
most valuable thing you can givethem, instead of just you know
it's.
It's sometimes for some of usit's easy to just write a check
and solve somebody's problem forthem.
What's really hard is to sayI'm going to sit here with you
while you tell me howdissatisfied you are with your
life and I'm not going to tellyou how to fix it.
Dan (14:22):
I'm just going to sit here and let you vent to me.
Yeah, I think it sounds.
I know sometimes I can feellike, oh, just offering hugs and
and conversations isn't asvaluable.
So I feel like you're almostslapping them in the face.
But well, I'm not going toreally help you out, I'm just
going to offer hugs and and and.
You know conversations as I getolder, the offer hugs and and
and you know conversations as Iget older.
The.
I realized and people have donethat for me it's priceless.
You know they may not reactpositively to that initially,
(14:46):
but if they, if you're tellingthem that you're going to be
offering this when they arestruggling, they're going to
know you're a safe space to comeback to and be able to share
things with, and I think it'sgoing to pay off in the long
term.
You just need to believe itfirst yourself that that is
something valuable and it issomething that you are actually
offering in lieu of the money.
Because a lot of times I waslike well then, what am I
offering them?
How am I supporting them if I'mnot giving them X, y or Z or
(15:08):
this money?
Knowing what you just said,that's great.
I'm going to take that away anduse that for the future is like
, yeah, my presence and me beinghere for you is still something
I am offering and and and it'svery valuable as well, and
that's to me that makes iteasier for me to accept making
that choice, making the harddecision.
Charles (15:26):
Oh man, I would say so.
Thank you for that, by the way.
I mean, just just look aroundat you know people who are
famous, either in you know.
Just look around at you knowpeople who are famous, either in
you know celebrities,politicians, whatever.
Look for men that can offer acalm, nonjudgmental presence in
the midst of a crisis.
They are rare and worth theirweight in gold so you can turn
(15:47):
yourself into a guy that can sitthere while somebody you care
about is going through somethingand be a calm, nonjudgmental
presence.
That is, I mean, number one.
The women in your life will beshocked, because their dad
probably wasn't like that, theirboss probably isn't like that.
Most of the people they dealwith to just say, hey, listen, I
know you're going throughsomething really tough right now
(16:08):
and, uh, I'm here for you tolet's talk about it.
Yeah, and let's you can tell mehow you feel, you can tell me
what's bothering you.
You can tell me, you can tellme how I may have made it worse.
Be able to sit there and dothat without losing your stack
is is really valuable and hardand, man, I, I failed at it over
and over and over again andit's, it's difficult, but again
(16:33):
you know it's going to improveyour relationship, though In the
long run, they're going to feelso much closer to you knowing
that you are operating in thatway and able to handle that.
Dan (16:42):
So when things get tough and you feel like, oh my God,
here it comes, I just opened upthe door by saying what have I
done to make this more difficult?
Charles (16:49):
Know that in the end, it's going to make things better
for both of you, so be willingto say that, Just being able to,
to be that kind of guy where,yeah, when, when the crap's
hitting the fan, you know youcan maintain your composure and
you can be supportive withoutlecturing, without judging,
without getting upset andanxious.
And you gotta, most of us don'tget those skills from our mommy
(17:13):
and our daddy when we're, whenwe're little, we have.
We have to find other sources.
Dan (17:16):
And we don't get it from high school, we don't get it
from college.
Charles (17:19):
We don't get it.
You need to seek that, you haveto go look for it and you have
to spend a lot of time.
Dan (17:26):
Listening to the Mindfully Mascot podcast.
Charles (17:28):
We won't make it worse.
So there's that.
But yeah, you have to spend alot of time in some
uncomfortable rooms havinguncomfortable conversations
about things you didn't get andthings you don't understand.
To turn yourself into that,because it does not come
naturally.
All right, let's talk a littlebit about harmful help.
When you're bailing someone outof trouble, when you're
(17:50):
over-functioning, when you'reattempting to remove sources of
struggle from someone else'slife, that is not the kind of
help that will help them.
It's the kind of help that willharm them.
Neutral tolerance is waiting,without connection or
encouragement, Just kind of youknow.
Oh, they're going throughsomething difficult.
I don't have the capacity tofix it for them, so I'm just
going to back out of their lifeand hope that they can figure it
(18:12):
out when healthy support is.
Presence without control andencouragement, without rescuing
Again those hugs and thoseconversations is the most
valuable thing you could givesomebody when they're having a
hard time.
Dan (18:26):
Yeah, for me, it's important to remember that you
still are doing something.
Absolutely the encouragementthat support it is still
something that you are investingyour time and energy and love
into and is ultimately, I think,the best of all of the options.
Charles (18:50):
The rescuing is the quick fix that's going to make
everybody feel, you know they're.
They're experiencing some chaosand some drama and I'm going to
protect myself by justdisengaging from this person
until they get their shittogether.
And you know, there's there'ssome temptation on my part, with
some of my relationships, to dothat.
It's like okay, they're,they're really.
They're really going through itright now and I, I would never
(19:13):
find myself in theircircumstances because I don't
have that particular mentalhealth challenge that they have.
So I would rather just, insteadof being uncomfortable or
trying to fix it for them, I'mjust gonna say good luck with
that and then I'll I'll poke inon their other social media in a
couple months and see if theyfigured it out yet, because
that's that's not a particularlyloving or kind thing to do, but
(19:33):
it is one way that we might tryto save ourselves from the
negative consequences thatthey're bringing onto themselves
and the people that are closeto them.
Dan (19:43):
I mean it is loving and kind in terms of you creating
the situation of where you'renot going to resent them.
Not going to resent thembecause if you were continuing
to force yourself to hang outwith that person and the
capacity and they are notbringing, they're bringing, you
know, negative energy or or thenegative things that they're
(20:05):
doing, the things that they'restruggling with to you, and you
don't have the capacity becauseyou've got other things and
you're living your own life andyou have the capacity to deal
with it, you're going to end upbecoming resentful and then
that's going to not make thingsget any better for the current
situation.
So I think it is the lovingthing to do you're not
forgetting about them, I mean Iwould say it's more.
Charles (20:26):
I mean, cutting ties with someone gracefully and and
being honest and direct isbetter than you know.
Trying to rescue them fromtheir own problems, certainly.
But the third option of healthysupport, where you offer your
presence without trying to solvetheir problem for them and you
offer encouragement withouttrying to rescue them from their
(20:48):
own choices, I mean that's thepinnacle.
But sometimes that's not apossibility.
Sometimes the only thing youcan do is say hey, listen,
you're getting yourself into thekind of trouble that is going
to have negative consequencesfor me that I'm not willing to
accept.
So I wish you the best, but Ican't.
Dan (21:06):
Most important pieces here is making the person feel like
they've got choices in terms ofhow they want to address the
issue and whether they want toaddress the issue.
That's one of the core tenants,I think, of any type of change
(21:28):
is, and life happiness ingeneral is feeling like we have
control over our own decisionsand we have the ability and the
freedom to make those choices.
When you come in from theoutside and you're basically
saying, nope, you need to dothis or you need to change that
or whatever, you're then takingaway that independence.
I would love to see the statsof people who have been sent to
(21:50):
rehab against their will, forwhatever it is, versus people
who voluntarily gone to rehab ontheir own in terms of the
recovery rates or the, the, therates of rebounding back into
yeah the addiction.
I'm just curious yeah, one.
Charles (22:08):
One would think that the people who choose it for
themselves probably have ahigher success rate.
I mean, I believe across theboard, most people take like
five rehabs before they can getsober.
Dan (22:19):
Right, and so that's the question too is that last one?
What's the average?
Is the last one on?
You know how many of those fivewere of their own volition
versus not?
Charles (22:29):
Yeah, and look, a lot of people talk about rock bottom
.
A lot of people find sobrietyin prison because things have
just gotten so bad, where theygo to jail or prison, and that's
where they're able to lookaround and say, okay, now nobody
was able to bail me out of this, so now I got to solve it on my
own.
Yeah yeah, so, yeah, I thinkit's.
It's tough to watch people youcare about go through difficult
(22:52):
things, and it won't stop beingtough.
You know when, when you'reproviding that safety net for
them and basically robbing themof the dignity of solving their
own problems, and that's that'sreally once you once you're able
to see it that way, as you'reyou're stealing something from
them that's more valuable thanthe check you're willing to
write to get them out of trouble.
Dan (23:13):
And I think another piece of this could be is if this is a
loved one, for example, if it'sa child, I feel like you know,
maybe you bailing them out is away of fixing your own bad
feelings about yourself and yourjudgment about yourself, like
I'm a bad parent because, or I'ma bad sibling because I, you
(23:35):
know this person has thisproblem and taking too much
responsibility because maybe youneglected them, or you feel
like you neglected them or youdid something wrong in the past
and that's got to be.
it's a whole nother level ofyeah, that's got to be tough of
of something that you know todeal with when it comes to
making the tough decision andletting them feel and letting
(23:55):
them hit rock bottom or, youknow, just providing that
support.
We feel like anxious because,oh, it's not enough, because I
want to make up for the things Iscrewed up in the past, or I
think I screwed up in the pastor I mean you, could, I mean you
legitimately could.
Charles (24:07):
I mean it could be a situation that is as cut and dry
as you know, I abused my son ordaughter and now they're an
alcoholic or a drug addict.
So now it feels like to make upfor what I did that contributed
to this or, flat out, caused it.
Yeah, now I've got tocontinually, you know, bail them
(24:27):
out of, you know, save themfrom their addiction that I
caused for the rest of theirlives.
Or it's's like, oh, no, you've,you've just traded one form of
abuse for another.
And, uh, you know, I, I, I lovethat A&E show intervention
which, um, you know, I considerit more of a documentary than a
reality show of just documentingpeople's struggles with
addiction.
Then they're, uh, you know whatwhat addiction has done to their
(24:50):
life, and then the family getstogether and has the, you know,
reads the letters of how theiraddiction is affecting them and
then gives them the choice ofit's either, you know, you, you
accept the gift of treatment, orhere's what's going to happen.
And it's like, yeah, you, you'vegot to realize that, handing
them over to the consequences oftheir choices, like the threat
(25:11):
of actually meaning that youwill do that and sincerely being
willing to say if you don't goto rehab, then here's all the
ways your life is going to getworse instantly.
Yeah, it's.
I'm glad I've never been inthat position, but I understand
why it works the way that itworks.
You have to be willing to saylike either get better today or
(25:33):
my insulating you from theconsequences of your action
stops today.
So your life is going to changetoday one way or another, and
sometimes that that's what ittakes for for these people to to
turn their lives around.
But if it's, you know, go aheadand keep living under that
bridge and I'll, you know, I'llgive you money for food and
drugs whenever you need it,because I don't want the
responsibility of you dying froman overdose or DTs or whatever.
Dan (25:57):
Yeah, you know, in one of these chapters too, she was
talking about how one of thereasons we could get into
problems and she interviewedsomebody who's much smarter than
all of us was that, as humanbeings, we don't think warnings
apply to us every time we read.
And that, I think, goes back tothat is oh, I don't really
think I'm going to die of anoverdose, right, that doesn't
happen to me?
Charles (26:15):
That doesn't happen to me.
Right, I'm not going to die ofa heart attack because I'm
(26:42):
carrying an extra hundred poundsaround.
That doesn't happen to me.
Dan (26:44):
That's happened to other people.
Right, and yeah, that bridge tocross is how do we get other
side of it?
But how do you do like, whenyou're on the other side of the
bypass, that you, you know, not,not for people who are over 200
pounds, and you know I'm at 230.
So it's like, all right, youknow, how do you, how do you
really believe something thathasn't happened yet?
Charles (27:02):
Right, like that's, yeah.
I mean, how do you?
Dan (27:05):
you can't, you can't, you can't convince anybody I mean
unless you see somebody who'selse is in your situation or who
was in your situation has gonethrough it and and those
consequences happened and youfeel like this is person's close
to me, it's relevant to me themessage I took from these two
chapters is you can't makepeople change, even when the
stakes are super high.
Charles (27:26):
You don't get to just impose your will on them and
expect it to work.
All you can do is give peoplethe space to make their own
choices and give them anenvironment where the right
choice is appreciated andadmired and modeled and modeled
and modeled, so the wrong choiceis not judged or punished or
(27:46):
nagged because it's not going tohelp.
I mean, I've never been talkedinto the right choice for myself
or others by being nagged orjudged or bullied into it.
I mean, you know, I'm more of awhat do we call it in that
other book, a high conflictpersonality than most others.
And as soon as I start feelingpressure like somebody's pushing
(28:07):
me into something, yeah, it'slike oh okay, we're playing the
pushback game.
I usually win this game.
Dan (28:14):
Well, it goes to Gutch and rubin's four tendencies.
Charles (28:17):
You're a little bit of a rebel, right I need to write
her, I need to go ahead and justbuy that book today, because I
think a couple days ago I wasdriving, I was doing a long
drive and I was like man, I wishI could remember the name of
that lady or that book.
I'd go ahead and buy it onaudible right now yeah it was
good, so I need to just go aheadand buy it so I can listen to
it and then maybe, maybe we'lltalk about it on the podcast.
Next Sounds good.
Is there a free version of thattest that you can take?
(28:38):
I think there is.
Dan (28:39):
I think so.
Yeah, yeah, I think on her.
I thought it was on her website.
There might be.
If not, then there definitelyis.
Charles (28:46):
One of the things that we'll probably cover on the her
philosophy about figuring outwhat way you are so that when
you want to change somethingabout yourself, you can use the
right tools instead of the wrongtools.
One thing I didn't want to askyou before we break is when it
comes to getting other people tomake these changes.
I did not go back and revisittiny habits, but I know you're
(29:06):
walking around with most of thatknowledge in your head.
Have any important ways thatyou think she's got a different
than bj fogg does?
No, okay, okay.
So she's pretty much on thesame page with how you inspire
those changes in other people.
Dan (29:19):
Meaning yeah, one of his tenants is you change when you
feel you feel good and not whenyou feel bad.
So, yeah, you don't want tomake that person feel bad.
Right, you want to celebrate,you know, you want to celebrate
those small wins, you want toencourage that.
So she talks about you knowcelebrating a little bit about
that.
And I think BJ also has achapter on how do you influence
somebody in a way where you arenot like, hey, we're going to
(29:41):
change something about you, likebasically just right, yeah, and
it's very similar in terms ofyou're providing a supportive
environment and you're alsomodeling that change Right?
Charles (29:53):
So I think yeah, they all kind of sync up together in
the country.
There's probably a lot of this.
Dan (29:58):
It's a little bit more analytical step-by-step to get
to that point.
I gotcha.
Charles (30:01):
Yeah, I imagine they're probably leveraging the same
core science behavioral science,behavioral economics.
They're probably looking at thesame experts when they put
their methods together.
Dan (30:12):
Yeah, with BJ it was b equals map.
So a behavior happens whenmotivation and your ability, the
ease of doing that thing,happen together from a prompt,
when you were basically promptedto do that.
It's easy enough and you haveenough motivation.
Sometimes it takes a little bit, sometimes it's a lot, in order
for a behavior to happen.
So that's, that's yeah, Iremember, the motivation or the
(30:40):
ability are like inversely rightthey need to both be there
enough in order for that tohappen.
Charles (30:47):
If the ability is, if it's too difficult to do, and
motivation exactly in order forthat to happen yeah, and if it's
really easy to do, then themotivation like we were talking
about, motivation is great fortaking out the garbage or
brushing your teeth that's whyhis whole philosophy he focuses
on making things as easy aspossible.
Dan (31:03):
Right, because motivation isn't, is it difficult to to
keep going and that's and that'stougher.
Charles (31:08):
You know when you, when you want to do something that
is objectively really difficult.
It's like you could only makeit so easy.
Dan (31:16):
But I guess with tiny habits you can make the little
individual steps that get youthere, as you first engineer it,
yeah, so you gotta look backand go okay, how do I right, how
do I make these steps as easyas possible in order to get to
this big?
Charles (31:29):
like I want to do my first iron man triathlon.
Dan (31:31):
It's like, okay, you don't start out doing a regular
marathon and then, and you know,50 mile bike race, race
individually.
You're breaking that down.
You're, you know, doing smallruns everything else like that.
But that's not.
But what?
Then we go back to gretchenrubin who talked about remember,
sometimes that's not enoughmotivation, right?
Yes, you get people becausethat's not a big, you're not
(31:52):
seeing enough bang for the buck,initially exactly in order to
keep that going and get excitedabout that.
So that's.
Charles (31:58):
I think bj tries to compensate with that, with the
celebrating that but if it's notall, then his celebrations
never really felt like right,then this is nothing.
So this isn't actually boostingmy dopamine, this isn't making
me feel better.
It's like I'll do it because hesays to do it, but like I don't
.
Yeah, so I don't get value outof the kinds of stuff.
Like if you look at his list ofall the celebrations, I like
(32:19):
none of these mean anything tome.
What means something to me iswhen I feel like doing something
and going hard, I go hard andthen I feel good about it yeah,
yeah, and so, if so, for for him.
Dan (32:30):
I think for most of the most people, the key is the
consistency part.
But how you stay consistent andthe things that motivate you to
stay consistent is different,and I think that goes back to
the Gretchen Rubin tendencies,where some people need, you know
, a big external.
You know they need a show orthat if they, you know, step on
(32:51):
stage or a marathon or a race orwhatever that is, or maybe it's
a bunch of smaller races alongthe way.
So maybe for that marathon youare training for a 5k and then
maybe it's a 10k or whateverthat is, and not just I'm just
going to do five miles, you know, and keep increasing until that
marathon.
That's not going to do enoughfor me.
I need a little bit more of a,an immediate kind of reward.
(33:12):
So that's where it's good toknow your tendency.
Charles (33:15):
What, and and that's where she gets into is what
motivates you yeah, I think theyeah, the people like me who
were very seduced by the go bigor go home thing, it's, I mean,
number one.
I got some adhd going on that Istruggle with.
I've got low conscientiousnesswhere just grinding away at a
boring task feels impossible forme.
It it drives me crazy.
And so, yeah, like looking atit, I mean in life there's very
(33:39):
few one size fits all approaches, right, I mean because people
are so different.
But you know, with things likeEnneagram or the big five or
like, there are ways that youcan, or her, her book and her
and her tests that she has, itdoes feel better when, the more
you can understand aboutyourself, to know what bucket
you fall in, the easier it is togo out there shopping for
(34:00):
methods and systems that willwork, that have a higher chance
of working for you.
So, right, when somebody speaksto me and they're like, if
you're a person that feels thisway or likes these things, then
here's an approach that'sprobably going to work for you.
Yes, that means a lot more tome than just here, atomic habits
, here, tiny habits.
It's like, no, it's like Iworked with people who are like
you and here's what works forthem.
(34:21):
That is way more valuable to me.
Dan (34:23):
Yeah, yeah, I think I think you can take aspects of atomic
habits and tiny habits and applythem.
So I think there's someprinciples there, right, and you
just need more than just theprinciples.
You need to know how totranslate and use those
principles for your tendencies,right?
Charles (34:40):
that's the way I I.
That's which of his uh, whichof the the tiny habits
celebrations do you work for you?
Any of them?
I'll be honest with I've tried.
Dan (34:48):
I've tried to do those like celebrations, but for me it's
kind of like uh, I've, I've.
Actually the celebrations thatwork for me is I'll talk to
myself and say hey man, nicework.
Like I put my ass and like gotall the dishes done and cleaned
up last night and I was likenice work, man.
And I just said that to myself.
It's different, it's not reallya celebration in the way he's
trying to get people tocelebrate, because what he wants
(35:09):
people to do is feel thatdopamine rush from that
celebration.
So he's saying things like youshould be visualizing, like what
it looks like.
You know how you feel when youcome home and your kids greet
you at your door or one of yourpets greet you at the door.
Like generate those thatfeeling of warmth and excitement
when you're doing like thesemundane little things.
And that's where I have aproblem I disconnect, I can't.
(35:32):
I can't do that.
So I need something else andthat might work for some people.
It doesn't work for me.
Charles (35:37):
I mean that, and you know, speaking of the last
episode of trying to be lessjudgmental than I was when I was
younger, it's like if somebodyis telling me that you know,
after they, after they put theirgym shoes on or their you know,
they gave themselves one ofthese.
And it's like if that's all ittakes for you, what is wrong
(35:58):
with you like like you've got alife where doing this for
yourself like that makes youfeel something.
Like that makes me feel likenothing.
What?
Dan (36:07):
is yeah.
So I think I think I thinkwhere the gap needs to be then
is you need to really kind offigure out okay, do some real
planning in advance and go allright, look, get some of those
smaller milestones in place thatactually mean something to you.
Charles (36:20):
Well, that's, yeah, that's the thing, and know that
you are getting there and it'snot going to be a very long
distance, being able to writeout a list of what actually
makes me freaking feel good,like what does it take for me to
like feel like something goodhas just happened in my life or
I've accomplished something, andtaking a list from somebody
else of very, you know, minorthings.
(36:41):
It's like, yeah, I, I wish that.
And look, maybe that's becausemy dopaminergic system is
completely blown out fromscrolling instagram all day.
Dan (36:49):
Or what you're not the only one.
Charles (36:50):
Yeah, I mean, I don't know.
It's hard for me to relate tosomebody who could literally say
you know, I didn't feel likegoing to the gym today.
But I went to the gym and then,after I was done with the gym,
when I got to my car, Iliterally patted myself on the
back and that moved the needle.
I was like yeah what?
how that moved, what Like?
(37:11):
The only needle that moves forme is the I feel stupid needle.
Yeah, yeah, but I'm willing toaccept that there could be
people out there that thatactually does something for them
, but for whatever reason, I'mnot one of them.
Dan (37:22):
You've actually given me some good ideas for for, for
helping people with this andcoaching myself as well, just as
this conversation thinkingabout this now, so kind of
combining a little bit of bothof those approaches where,
instead of going to thecelebration piece, it's how do
we take that bigger goal andwhat are similar goals along the
way that aren't necessarilyimmediate, but closer than yeah,
(37:46):
it's not going to happentomorrow, it's not going to
happen next week, but maybe nextmonth.
This big thing is going tohappen.
I'm going to.
That's enough for me to go.
I'm going to keep going to thegym because this thing's getting
closer and it's like I see, Itaste it, whereas a marathon
could be a year away, and it'slike on a day-to-day basis.
Charles (38:09):
That's going to wear off and from the little bit For
most people yeah, that what'sher name again the chick with
the Gretchen Rubin A little bit.
From what I've seen of her onYouTube, I believe that there
are some people that settingthat a year from now, I'm going
to be in a bodybuildingcompetition or I'm going to run
a marathon, like there are somepeople that just paying the
registration fee and getting iton their calendar is for them
(38:31):
and it was like God that feelslike a different species for me,
Like I could not imagine beingthe kind of person that all I
have to do is put it on my pay,the registration fee, get it on
my calendar and that's enough tochange the way that I behave.
When I wake up 26 days from nowwhat are you kidding me?
It's like uh, yeah, I, I wish,I wish it was that easy for me,
but I've got to accept that I'mnot one of those people.
(38:53):
That means that there areprobably some things that I'm
good at that those kinds ofpeople are not good at.
Yeah, I don't know what theyare, but they've got to exist.
Dan (39:01):
And you'll never know.
You'll never know, right, butfor me, I think my takeaway from
this conversation is I'm goingto look at some of these
slightly longer term goals andI'm going to start, you know,
reverse engineering them intofun milestones, exciting
milestones.
For me, that maybe isn't that'sgoing to lead me to being able
to achieve that bigger goal.
Right, one of the one, one ofthe things and focus more on on
(39:21):
how I can derive joy andpleasure from those little
milestones, and it's going totake a little brainstorming to
do that, but I think.
I think it's going to beeffective for me.
So I don't know All right Again.
Charles (39:31):
don't know how much of this stays in the podcast, but
at least you and I had some goodconversations.
See, we'll see how much stupidshit we're talking about.
Talk to you later, dan.
All right, bye-bye.
Thanks for listening all theway through this episode of
Mindfully Masculine.
It really matters and we'regrateful you're here with us.
Be sure to check outmindfullymasculinecom, where you
can find.
Look for men that can offer a calm, nonjudgmental
presence in the midst of acrisis.
They are rare and worth theirweight in gold.
So you can turn yourself into aguy that can sit there while
somebody you care about is goingthrough something and be a calm
, nonjudgmental presence.
That is, I mean, number one.
(00:23):
The women in your life will beshocked because their dad
probably wasn't like that, theirboss probably isn't like that,
most of the people they dealwith to just say, hey, listen, I
know you're going throughsomething really tough right now
and, uh, I'm here for you tolet's talk about it.
Yeah, and let's you can tell mehow you feel, you can tell me
what's bothering you.
(00:43):
You can tell me how I may havemade it worse.
Being able to sit there andhear that without losing your
stack is really valuable andhard.
And, man, I failed at it overand over and over again.
Welcome to the MindfullyMasculine Podcast.
This is Charles.
Masculine podcast.
(01:06):
This is charles.
In this episode, we dive intochapter 16 and 17 of the let
them theory, where mel robbinstackles the hard truth about
rescuing and supporting others.
We'll explore why stepping into save someone often makes
things worse and how to shiftinto a healthier kind of support
that actually helps.
Check out our website,mindfullymasculinecom, where you
can find all of our episodes,audio and video and anything
else.
Dan and I feel like sharingthanks and enjoy hey, charles,
(01:30):
good morning that was quick.
Hey dan how you doing I'm wellwell all right.
So, uh, we're wearing the sameclothes, but we got a purple
background and that means we'rerecording another episode on the
same day, because next week I'mgonna be in texas, yeehaw
yeehaw dallas, austin, dallas,dallas yeah, dallas, for this
one that said we're uh, we'renot going to be recording next
(01:51):
week.
so we're going to talk aboutchapter 16 and 17 from the let
them theory, and really thesechapters are very similar to 14
and 15.
It's just kind of discussingthe more extreme examples of
dealing with others, behaviorand when you believe other
people around you need to changefor your good and their good.
And so when it gets, when it'sa, when the stakes are higher
(02:13):
and it's more serious, how doyou deal with it?
Yep, so that's what we're goingto talk about, which I don't
think we'll have to talk aboutvery long.
We'll reiterate some of thereiterate some of the points
that we covered from the lastepisode, which is she says you
can't want someone's healingmore than they do.
It's like, well, you can, butyou're going to be wasting your
time and your energy.
So if you're in a positionwhere you want them to change
(02:36):
more than they want to change,don't expect them to change.
Expect yourself to spend a lotof time feeling badly, resentful
, angry, but don't expect to getthe result that you're looking
for.
Dan (02:47):
Now I think a lot of our struggles come from when we
aren't willing to sit in reality.
Charles (02:53):
And.
Dan (02:54):
I think a lot of us will look at somebody else and want
them to change, and we live inthat world of we want them to be
here and they are here and weare focused on on this here and
we're not comfortable being downhere.
And if there's a way that we canget from and and let them know
that we are here with them, weaccept what they are, the
reality of it is, and we'llsupport them from underneath
(03:17):
rather than pulling them from uptop, I think that's going to be
a lot more effective, becauseyou're then not putting the
pressure of them to change andand get it done, because maybe
they don't exactly know how thatpath needs to happen, where
they need to go, and so if youkind of support from underneath
(03:38):
rather than pull from the top, Ithink it's going to be a lot
more effective.
There's a lot less pressure.
I don't.
I just kind of had that thoughtright now as you were talking
about that right, where that'swhere reality is.
You're meeting them where theyare instead of telling them or
making them feel bad for wherethey're not around her
relationship is.
Charles (03:55):
You know, one exercise I would encourage you slash her
to do uh in in our discussionsas well.
I said to her imagine how it'sgoing to feel if you're in this
exact same situation 10 yearsfrom now and you're, you know,
(04:20):
42 instead of 32.
I don't remember how old she is, but like not only are you a 42
year old woman that's stilldealing with these same problems
, but it's been grinding on youfor the last 10 years.
So what does that life looklike feel, right?
One point she brought up inthis chapter that I thought was
very valuable is you might noteven know somebody's
experiencing a struggle withsomething like addiction,
(04:42):
especially, you know, becausethey hide it so well.
Yeah, so especially drinkingdrugs, gambling, something like
that.
It's like you're not by the timeyou know about it.
It's like, okay, this is a fivealarm fire, and so you may, you
may be getting into somethingalready when it's way, way on
down the road where it's like,okay, there are some major
consequences.
And then, if you get surprisedby it, your initial okay, there
(05:05):
are some major consequences.
And then, if you get surprisedby it, your initial instinct to
rescue them may be even strongerand you're like, oh no, you
know this, this person has to.
You know they need to come upwith twenty thousand dollars to
by tomorrow they're going tolose their house.
It's like, okay, well, I betterget twenty thousand dollars out
of my ira so I can help themwith this.
When you know if, if this kindof an urgent thing comes to you,
like right on the they'rethey're only asking for help
(05:26):
because it's going to happentomorrow, then you're going to
be even more pressured, to feellike I've got to step in and
save them.
Dan (05:33):
Yeah, and the the issue here with with all of that, I
think they've been hiding it forso long from from the world
that, yeah, as you said, it'sgoing to be a really big
emergency.
At that point it's going to beprobably beyond the scope of
what you can do, even if in anideal world, you were able to
change them.
(05:53):
It's important to also not justwipe your hands of it and back
off, but just let them know thatyou're there to support them.
And maybe it's just a phonecall, it's not a I'm gonna
dismiss this person and, and youknow, kind of erase them out of
my life.
Maybe it's you just kind ofkeeping up with the phone call
occasionally, just saying you'rethere for them.
(06:14):
I think in one of thesechapters she talked about how
she had really bad postpartumdepression with one of her kids
where she couldn't even be alonewith the infant for the first
four months of its life.
Like that is some serious, likejust her and her baby, and I
think it was in-laws.
What did you take?
Charles (06:28):
away from that?
Was that as in, she's going tohurt herself for the baby or
she's just going to, like, loseher mind, and just you know?
Dan (06:35):
I wasn't sure.
I wasn't sure if it was likehurting the baby or completely
being so spaced out that a babywould be suffering and not
getting it what it needs interms of nutrition or attention
or whatever it is.
So I'm not sure.
When she says she's she couldn'tbe alone with the baby, um, I
I'm I'm leaning more towards shewouldn't be able to properly
take care of it, not that she'sputting a pillow over its face,
(06:57):
kind of thing right, yeah so,but in either case, what she
said was her in-laws or herparents would come and basically
go look, we're, you know we'regoing to take you, we're, we're,
we're taking everybody out,we're going to a park, we're
going to an activity.
So it wasn't necessarily hey,you need to fix your depression.
It was we're going to supportthis and we're going to provide
(07:20):
activities.
Yes, I feel like there's maybea little bit of force there to
like get her out of the houseand things, but it wasn't a
direct hey, you need to changethis behavior.
It was I'm going to provide thesupports.
We're going to give you a wholebunch of paper plates and bowls
and dishes, and so you don'thave to do dishes while you're
learning how to take care of thebaby and you're already
(07:41):
overwhelmed with everything.
Charles (07:42):
That's how I support myself.
Even though I don't have a baby, I always eat off of paper.
Dan (07:46):
Yeah, listen I'm this close to switching over myself
because I'm like, how I'm oneperson in this house, dixie, how
am I dixie ultra, that's theway to go am I?
Generating so many dirty dishes.
It's like, oh my god yeah, it'suh.
Charles (08:00):
What could argue?
Dan (08:01):
and I'm gonna dishwasher it's.
Charles (08:02):
It's a bit wasteful to make produce that much garbage.
But man, yeah, I don't.
I don't even own non paper.
I buy Dixie Ultra solos.
Make solo makes a pretty goodproduct.
But if you're using paperplates, I say get the premium,
most expensive paper plates inin whatever that company's line
is.
Yeah, buy our best sticks.
Yeah, most expensive Dixie, themost expensive dixie, the most
(08:23):
expensive solo, and you'llyou'll be, because when it comes
to like I actually want to beable to cut a steak without
cutting through my paper plateand leak all over the table,
yeah, all the table for suregash in my table so yeah, buy,
buy expensive, but yeah I howdid you take, what did you think
when she said she wasn't ableto be left along with the infant
for oh, I went immediately topillow over the facts.
(08:45):
Yeah and I yeah that that mightsay more about me than it does
about her.
That's where I went.
One of the things that, uh, isinteresting and I've had some
experience with this shame anddenial can block acceptance of
health, so I of help.
I've had people come to mebefore and ask to borrow money
to get out of a financial crunch.
Dan (09:07):
Okay.
Charles (09:07):
And this is some advice , modified advice from Dave
Ramsey, which is interestingbecause now I kind of look at I
don't look at Dave Ramsey in aspositive a way as I used to,
because when I hear him talkabout personal finance, he's
very boomerish when he talksabout it.
Like you know well, just say noto yourself and just you know,
pull yourself up by thebootstraps and it's like okay,
(09:29):
can we just don't do it.
Can we have some?
Can we have someacknowledgement of the fact that
, you know, wages and inflationhave not kept in pace with each
other?
And so the idea of I'm justgoing to sock away money for a
year and then I can buy a house,that's not true now in the way
that it was true, you know, inthe 60s.
It simply is not, and hedoesn't talk in a way that
(09:52):
really acknowledges that.
But anyway, one of the thingswas somebody came to me and
they're like hey, can I borrowsome money?
I'm experiencing an issue, Icould really use your help.
Blah, blah, blah.
And I was like blah, blah, blah.
And I was like, well, numberone, no, I'm not going to loan
you money, I will just give itto you and you won't have to pay
it back.
But if you want that to happen,we're going to sit down and look
(10:14):
at your monthly budget, look atyour income, look at your
expenses and figure out how wecan make this work.
So I will give you the moneyinstead of loaning it to you.
But we're going to sit down fora couple hours and go through
this and their take the loan ortake the charity, but they're
not going to open up and say andyou know, I will accept your
(10:36):
help in solving the problem.
And I think and I'm I'm notgoing to give unless you're
willing to let me help you solvethe, the bigger problem.
I'm not just going to loan orhand you the money.
It's, it's not going to happenhere's.
You're going to, essentially,lee, I'm going to buy two hours
of your time to go over yourbudget with you and that's the
(10:57):
transaction that's going tohappen here.
And they're like thanks but nothanks.
Dan (11:00):
Right and okay.
To me that's a perfect exampleof the differences in human
beings where for somebody, forone person, asking for money is
a really big deal, it is, uh,maybe a blow to their ego.
It is very difficult to doversus, you know, and and and
(11:22):
maybe they're great at keeping abudget and that's their
experience and they've got noproblems open kimono here,
here's all, here's my spending,everything else like that
whereas other people it's veryeasy for them to ask for money
and impossible for them to openthat kimono and go, okay, this
is my and it's it's.
I think I've run into thatproblem where just assuming that
(11:45):
it's just as easy on for bothof those things, or just as
difficult for both of thosethings, as it for me, as it is
for somebody else, and that'swhere I've run into problems in
the past too, and then theoutcomes are different and also
the the level of severity thenis is misinterpreted in my mind.
So I feel like if somebody has,you know, really needs, you know
(12:07):
is going to ask me for, forhelp, for money, they really
need it, because that's how Iwould go about it, like I would,
would absolutely have to haveit if I'm going to ask for it.
But that might not have beenthe case and this may not have
even been their rock bottom.
And so you need to getcomfortable with that, realizing
that, hey, they're not at thatrock bottom, they're complaining
a lot and that's making youfeel uncomfortable because you
(12:29):
don't know how to manage that.
Or maybe you don't know how tomanage that relationship because
most of the conversations thatyou have with that person are
centered around them complainingabout just the finances.
And I've had in my past, I'vehad, conversations with family
members where I've said, in notso nice ways and I wish I could
(12:51):
go back and do that where I'vesaid, listen, I don't want to
have conversations like thisbecause I feel like this is all
we're talking about and I don'tenjoy that.
I don't want to be.
You know, I don't.
I want to have betterconversations.
And initially it was not a goodreaction and it was kind of
like a fine, we're not going totalk at all kind of thing.
That was fortunately, thank God, short-lived and now I've got a
(13:11):
much better relationship and amuch healthier relationship.
But I needed to be okay dealingwith those feelings of oh my
God, I really upset this personand I didn't want me to do that.
So again, I think it really, youknow, like you said, it comes
back down to us managing our ownemotions.
Once we figure out how to dothat, we can make much better
decisions for us and for ourrelationships moving forward.
Charles (13:35):
Yeah and yeah the.
The ability to just sit withpeople in their discomfort and
just, you know, be there forthem and say you know, listen, I
know you're struggling withthis and, like we said in the
last episode, I mean justoffering somebody, you know, I
will give you unlimited hugs andunlimited conversations while
you work, while you solve thisproblem is, in many ways, the
(13:57):
most valuable thing you can givethem, instead of just you know
it's.
It's sometimes for some of usit's easy to just write a check
and solve somebody's problem forthem.
What's really hard is to sayI'm going to sit here with you
while you tell me howdissatisfied you are with your
life and I'm not going to tellyou how to fix it.
Dan (14:22):
I'm just going to sit here and let you vent to me.
Yeah, I think it sounds.
I know sometimes I can feellike, oh, just offering hugs and
and conversations isn't asvaluable.
So I feel like you're almostslapping them in the face.
But well, I'm not going toreally help you out, I'm just
going to offer hugs and and and.
You know conversations as I getolder, the offer hugs and and
and you know conversations as Iget older.
The.
I realized and people have donethat for me it's priceless.
You know they may not reactpositively to that initially,
(14:46):
but if they, if you're tellingthem that you're going to be
offering this when they arestruggling, they're going to
know you're a safe space to comeback to and be able to share
things with, and I think it'sgoing to pay off in the long
term.
You just need to believe itfirst yourself that that is
something valuable and it issomething that you are actually
offering in lieu of the money.
Because a lot of times I waslike well then, what am I
offering them?
How am I supporting them if I'mnot giving them X, y or Z or
(15:08):
this money?
Knowing what you just said,that's great.
I'm going to take that away anduse that for the future is like
, yeah, my presence and me beinghere for you is still something
I am offering and and and it'svery valuable as well, and
that's to me that makes iteasier for me to accept making
that choice, making the harddecision.
Charles (15:26):
Oh man, I would say so.
Thank you for that, by the way.
I mean, just just look aroundat you know people who are
famous, either in you know.
Just look around at you knowpeople who are famous, either in
you know celebrities,politicians, whatever.
Look for men that can offer acalm, nonjudgmental presence in
the midst of a crisis.
They are rare and worth theirweight in gold so you can turn
(15:47):
yourself into a guy that can sitthere while somebody you care
about is going through somethingand be a calm, nonjudgmental
presence.
That is, I mean, number one.
The women in your life will beshocked, because their dad
probably wasn't like that, theirboss probably isn't like that.
Most of the people they dealwith to just say, hey, listen, I
know you're going throughsomething really tough right now
(16:08):
and, uh, I'm here for you tolet's talk about it.
Yeah, and let's you can tell mehow you feel, you can tell me
what's bothering you.
You can tell me, you can tellme how I may have made it worse.
Be able to sit there and dothat without losing your stack
is is really valuable and hardand, man, I, I failed at it over
and over and over again andit's, it's difficult, but again
(16:33):
you know it's going to improveyour relationship, though In the
long run, they're going to feelso much closer to you knowing
that you are operating in thatway and able to handle that.
Dan (16:42):
So when things get tough and you feel like, oh my God,
here it comes, I just opened upthe door by saying what have I
done to make this more difficult?
Charles (16:49):
Know that in the end, it's going to make things better
for both of you, so be willingto say that, Just being able to,
to be that kind of guy where,yeah, when, when the crap's
hitting the fan, you know youcan maintain your composure and
you can be supportive withoutlecturing, without judging,
without getting upset andanxious.
And you gotta, most of us don'tget those skills from our mommy
(17:13):
and our daddy when we're, whenwe're little, we have.
We have to find other sources.
Dan (17:16):
And we don't get it from high school, we don't get it
from college.
Charles (17:19):
We don't get it.
You need to seek that, you haveto go look for it and you have
to spend a lot of time.
Dan (17:26):
Listening to the Mindfully Mascot podcast.
Charles (17:28):
We won't make it worse.
So there's that.
But yeah, you have to spend alot of time in some
uncomfortable rooms havinguncomfortable conversations
about things you didn't get andthings you don't understand.
To turn yourself into that,because it does not come
naturally.
All right, let's talk a littlebit about harmful help.
When you're bailing someone outof trouble, when you're
(17:50):
over-functioning, when you'reattempting to remove sources of
struggle from someone else'slife, that is not the kind of
help that will help them.
It's the kind of help that willharm them.
Neutral tolerance is waiting,without connection or
encouragement, Just kind of youknow.
Oh, they're going throughsomething difficult.
I don't have the capacity tofix it for them, so I'm just
going to back out of their lifeand hope that they can figure it
(18:12):
out when healthy support is.
Presence without control andencouragement, without rescuing
Again those hugs and thoseconversations is the most
valuable thing you could givesomebody when they're having a
hard time.
Dan (18:26):
Yeah, for me, it's important to remember that you
still are doing something.
Absolutely the encouragementthat support it is still
something that you are investingyour time and energy and love
into and is ultimately, I think,the best of all of the options.
Charles (18:50):
The rescuing is the quick fix that's going to make
everybody feel, you know they're.
They're experiencing some chaosand some drama and I'm going to
protect myself by justdisengaging from this person
until they get their shittogether.
And you know, there's there'ssome temptation on my part, with
some of my relationships, to dothat.
It's like okay, they're,they're really.
They're really going through itright now and I, I would never
(19:13):
find myself in theircircumstances because I don't
have that particular mentalhealth challenge that they have.
So I would rather just, insteadof being uncomfortable or
trying to fix it for them, I'mjust gonna say good luck with
that and then I'll I'll poke inon their other social media in a
couple months and see if theyfigured it out yet, because
that's that's not a particularlyloving or kind thing to do, but
(19:33):
it is one way that we might tryto save ourselves from the
negative consequences thatthey're bringing onto themselves
and the people that are closeto them.
Dan (19:43):
I mean it is loving and kind in terms of you creating
the situation of where you'renot going to resent them.
Not going to resent thembecause if you were continuing
to force yourself to hang outwith that person and the
capacity and they are notbringing, they're bringing, you
know, negative energy or or thenegative things that they're
(20:05):
doing, the things that they'restruggling with to you, and you
don't have the capacity becauseyou've got other things and
you're living your own life andyou have the capacity to deal
with it, you're going to end upbecoming resentful and then
that's going to not make thingsget any better for the current
situation.
So I think it is the lovingthing to do you're not
forgetting about them, I mean Iwould say it's more.
Charles (20:26):
I mean, cutting ties with someone gracefully and and
being honest and direct isbetter than you know.
Trying to rescue them fromtheir own problems, certainly.
But the third option of healthysupport, where you offer your
presence without trying to solvetheir problem for them and you
offer encouragement withouttrying to rescue them from their
(20:48):
own choices, I mean that's thepinnacle.
But sometimes that's not apossibility.
Sometimes the only thing youcan do is say hey, listen,
you're getting yourself into thekind of trouble that is going
to have negative consequencesfor me that I'm not willing to
accept.
So I wish you the best, but Ican't.
Dan (21:06):
Most important pieces here is making the person feel like
they've got choices in terms ofhow they want to address the
issue and whether they want toaddress the issue.
That's one of the core tenants,I think, of any type of change
(21:28):
is, and life happiness ingeneral is feeling like we have
control over our own decisionsand we have the ability and the
freedom to make those choices.
When you come in from theoutside and you're basically
saying, nope, you need to dothis or you need to change that
or whatever, you're then takingaway that independence.
I would love to see the statsof people who have been sent to
(21:50):
rehab against their will, forwhatever it is, versus people
who voluntarily gone to rehab ontheir own in terms of the
recovery rates or the, the, therates of rebounding back into
yeah the addiction.
I'm just curious yeah, one.
Charles (22:08):
One would think that the people who choose it for
themselves probably have ahigher success rate.
I mean, I believe across theboard, most people take like
five rehabs before they can getsober.
Dan (22:19):
Right, and so that's the question too is that last one?
What's the average?
Is the last one on?
You know how many of those fivewere of their own volition
versus not?
Charles (22:29):
Yeah, and look, a lot of people talk about rock bottom
.
A lot of people find sobrietyin prison because things have
just gotten so bad, where theygo to jail or prison, and that's
where they're able to lookaround and say, okay, now nobody
was able to bail me out of this, so now I got to solve it on my
own.
Yeah yeah, so, yeah, I thinkit's.
It's tough to watch people youcare about go through difficult
(22:52):
things, and it won't stop beingtough.
You know when, when you'reproviding that safety net for
them and basically robbing themof the dignity of solving their
own problems, and that's that'sreally once you once you're able
to see it that way, as you'reyou're stealing something from
them that's more valuable thanthe check you're willing to
write to get them out of trouble.
Dan (23:13):
And I think another piece of this could be is if this is a
loved one, for example, if it'sa child, I feel like you know,
maybe you bailing them out is away of fixing your own bad
feelings about yourself and yourjudgment about yourself, like
I'm a bad parent because, or I'ma bad sibling because I, you
(23:35):
know this person has thisproblem and taking too much
responsibility because maybe youneglected them, or you feel
like you neglected them or youdid something wrong in the past
and that's got to be.
it's a whole nother level ofyeah, that's got to be tough of
of something that you know todeal with when it comes to
making the tough decision andletting them feel and letting
(23:55):
them hit rock bottom or, youknow, just providing that
support.
We feel like anxious because,oh, it's not enough, because I
want to make up for the things Iscrewed up in the past, or I
think I screwed up in the pastor I mean you, could, I mean you
legitimately could.
Charles (24:07):
I mean it could be a situation that is as cut and dry
as you know, I abused my son ordaughter and now they're an
alcoholic or a drug addict.
So now it feels like to make upfor what I did that contributed
to this or, flat out, caused it.
Yeah, now I've got tocontinually, you know, bail them
(24:27):
out of, you know, save themfrom their addiction that I
caused for the rest of theirlives.
Or it's's like, oh, no, you've,you've just traded one form of
abuse for another.
And, uh, you know, I, I, I lovethat A&E show intervention
which, um, you know, I considerit more of a documentary than a
reality show of just documentingpeople's struggles with
addiction.
Then they're, uh, you know whatwhat addiction has done to their
(24:50):
life, and then the family getstogether and has the, you know,
reads the letters of how theiraddiction is affecting them and
then gives them the choice ofit's either, you know, you, you
accept the gift of treatment, orhere's what's going to happen.
And it's like, yeah, you, you'vegot to realize that, handing
them over to the consequences oftheir choices, like the threat
(25:11):
of actually meaning that youwill do that and sincerely being
willing to say if you don't goto rehab, then here's all the
ways your life is going to getworse instantly.
Yeah, it's.
I'm glad I've never been inthat position, but I understand
why it works the way that itworks.
You have to be willing to saylike either get better today or
(25:33):
my insulating you from theconsequences of your action
stops today.
So your life is going to changetoday one way or another, and
sometimes that that's what ittakes for for these people to to
turn their lives around.
But if it's, you know, go aheadand keep living under that
bridge and I'll, you know, I'llgive you money for food and
drugs whenever you need it,because I don't want the
responsibility of you dying froman overdose or DTs or whatever.
Dan (25:57):
Yeah, you know, in one of these chapters too, she was
talking about how one of thereasons we could get into
problems and she interviewedsomebody who's much smarter than
all of us was that, as humanbeings, we don't think warnings
apply to us every time we read.
And that, I think, goes back tothat is oh, I don't really
think I'm going to die of anoverdose, right, that doesn't
happen to me?
Charles (26:15):
That doesn't happen to me.
Right, I'm not going to die ofa heart attack because I'm
(26:42):
carrying an extra hundred poundsaround.
That doesn't happen to me.
Dan (26:44):
That's happened to other people.
Right, and yeah, that bridge tocross is how do we get other
side of it?
But how do you do like, whenyou're on the other side of the
bypass, that you, you know, not,not for people who are over 200
pounds, and you know I'm at 230.
So it's like, all right, youknow, how do you, how do you
really believe something thathasn't happened yet?
Charles (27:02):
Right, like that's, yeah.
I mean, how do you?
Dan (27:05):
you can't, you can't, you can't convince anybody I mean
unless you see somebody who'selse is in your situation or who
was in your situation has gonethrough it and and those
consequences happened and youfeel like this is person's close
to me, it's relevant to me themessage I took from these two
chapters is you can't makepeople change, even when the
stakes are super high.
Charles (27:26):
You don't get to just impose your will on them and
expect it to work.
All you can do is give peoplethe space to make their own
choices and give them anenvironment where the right
choice is appreciated andadmired and modeled and modeled
and modeled, so the wrong choiceis not judged or punished or
(27:46):
nagged because it's not going tohelp.
I mean, I've never been talkedinto the right choice for myself
or others by being nagged orjudged or bullied into it.
I mean, you know, I'm more of awhat do we call it in that
other book, a high conflictpersonality than most others.
And as soon as I start feelingpressure like somebody's pushing
(28:07):
me into something, yeah, it'slike oh okay, we're playing the
pushback game.
I usually win this game.
Dan (28:14):
Well, it goes to Gutch and rubin's four tendencies.
Charles (28:17):
You're a little bit of a rebel, right I need to write
her, I need to go ahead and justbuy that book today, because I
think a couple days ago I wasdriving, I was doing a long
drive and I was like man, I wishI could remember the name of
that lady or that book.
I'd go ahead and buy it onaudible right now yeah it was
good, so I need to just go aheadand buy it so I can listen to
it and then maybe, maybe we'lltalk about it on the podcast.
Next Sounds good.
Is there a free version of thattest that you can take?
(28:38):
I think there is.
Dan (28:39):
I think so.
Yeah, yeah, I think on her.
I thought it was on her website.
There might be.
If not, then there definitelyis.
Charles (28:46):
One of the things that we'll probably cover on the her
philosophy about figuring outwhat way you are so that when
you want to change somethingabout yourself, you can use the
right tools instead of the wrongtools.
One thing I didn't want to askyou before we break is when it
comes to getting other people tomake these changes.
I did not go back and revisittiny habits, but I know you're
(29:06):
walking around with most of thatknowledge in your head.
Have any important ways thatyou think she's got a different
than bj fogg does?
No, okay, okay.
So she's pretty much on thesame page with how you inspire
those changes in other people.
Dan (29:19):
Meaning yeah, one of his tenants is you change when you
feel you feel good and not whenyou feel bad.
So, yeah, you don't want tomake that person feel bad.
Right, you want to celebrate,you know, you want to celebrate
those small wins, you want toencourage that.
So she talks about you knowcelebrating a little bit about
that.
And I think BJ also has achapter on how do you influence
somebody in a way where you arenot like, hey, we're going to
(29:41):
change something about you, likebasically just right, yeah, and
it's very similar in terms ofyou're providing a supportive
environment and you're alsomodeling that change Right?
Charles (29:53):
So I think yeah, they all kind of sync up together in
the country.
There's probably a lot of this.
Dan (29:58):
It's a little bit more analytical step-by-step to get
to that point.
I gotcha.
Charles (30:01):
Yeah, I imagine they're probably leveraging the same
core science behavioral science,behavioral economics.
They're probably looking at thesame experts when they put
their methods together.
Dan (30:12):
Yeah, with BJ it was b equals map.
So a behavior happens whenmotivation and your ability, the
ease of doing that thing,happen together from a prompt,
when you were basically promptedto do that.
It's easy enough and you haveenough motivation.
Sometimes it takes a little bit, sometimes it's a lot, in order
for a behavior to happen.
So that's, that's yeah, Iremember, the motivation or the
(30:40):
ability are like inversely rightthey need to both be there
enough in order for that tohappen.
Charles (30:47):
If the ability is, if it's too difficult to do, and
motivation exactly in order forthat to happen yeah, and if it's
really easy to do, then themotivation like we were talking
about, motivation is great fortaking out the garbage or
brushing your teeth that's whyhis whole philosophy he focuses
on making things as easy aspossible.
Dan (31:03):
Right, because motivation isn't, is it difficult to to
keep going and that's and that'stougher.
Charles (31:08):
You know when you, when you want to do something that
is objectively really difficult.
It's like you could only makeit so easy.
Dan (31:16):
But I guess with tiny habits you can make the little
individual steps that get youthere, as you first engineer it,
yeah, so you gotta look backand go okay, how do I right, how
do I make these steps as easyas possible in order to get to
this big?
Charles (31:29):
like I want to do my first iron man triathlon.
Dan (31:31):
It's like, okay, you don't start out doing a regular
marathon and then, and you know,50 mile bike race, race
individually.
You're breaking that down.
You're, you know, doing smallruns everything else like that.
But that's not.
But what?
Then we go back to gretchenrubin who talked about remember,
sometimes that's not enoughmotivation, right?
Yes, you get people becausethat's not a big, you're not
(31:52):
seeing enough bang for the buck,initially exactly in order to
keep that going and get excitedabout that.
So that's.
Charles (31:58):
I think bj tries to compensate with that, with the
celebrating that but if it's notall, then his celebrations
never really felt like right,then this is nothing.
So this isn't actually boostingmy dopamine, this isn't making
me feel better.
It's like I'll do it because hesays to do it, but like I don't
.
Yeah, so I don't get value outof the kinds of stuff.
Like if you look at his list ofall the celebrations, I like
(32:19):
none of these mean anything tome.
What means something to me iswhen I feel like doing something
and going hard, I go hard andthen I feel good about it yeah,
yeah, and so, if so, for for him.
Dan (32:30):
I think for most of the most people, the key is the
consistency part.
But how you stay consistent andthe things that motivate you to
stay consistent is different,and I think that goes back to
the Gretchen Rubin tendencies,where some people need, you know
, a big external.
You know they need a show orthat if they, you know, step on
(32:51):
stage or a marathon or a race orwhatever that is, or maybe it's
a bunch of smaller races alongthe way.
So maybe for that marathon youare training for a 5k and then
maybe it's a 10k or whateverthat is, and not just I'm just
going to do five miles, you know, and keep increasing until that
marathon.
That's not going to do enoughfor me.
I need a little bit more of a,an immediate kind of reward.
(33:12):
So that's where it's good toknow your tendency.
Charles (33:15):
What, and and that's where she gets into is what
motivates you yeah, I think theyeah, the people like me who
were very seduced by the go bigor go home thing, it's, I mean,
number one.
I got some adhd going on that Istruggle with.
I've got low conscientiousnesswhere just grinding away at a
boring task feels impossible forme.
It it drives me crazy.
And so, yeah, like looking atit, I mean in life there's very
(33:39):
few one size fits all approaches, right, I mean because people
are so different.
But you know, with things likeEnneagram or the big five or
like, there are ways that youcan, or her, her book and her
and her tests that she has, itdoes feel better when, the more
you can understand aboutyourself, to know what bucket
you fall in, the easier it is togo out there shopping for
(34:00):
methods and systems that willwork, that have a higher chance
of working for you.
So, right, when somebody speaksto me and they're like, if
you're a person that feels thisway or likes these things, then
here's an approach that'sprobably going to work for you.
Yes, that means a lot more tome than just here, atomic habits
, here, tiny habits.
It's like, no, it's like Iworked with people who are like
you and here's what works forthem.
(34:21):
That is way more valuable to me.
Dan (34:23):
Yeah, yeah, I think I think you can take aspects of atomic
habits and tiny habits and applythem.
So I think there's someprinciples there, right, and you
just need more than just theprinciples.
You need to know how totranslate and use those
principles for your tendencies,right?
Charles (34:40):
that's the way I I.
That's which of his uh, whichof the the tiny habits
celebrations do you work for you?
Any of them?
I'll be honest with I've tried.
Dan (34:48):
I've tried to do those like celebrations, but for me it's
kind of like uh, I've, I've.
Actually the celebrations thatwork for me is I'll talk to
myself and say hey man, nicework.
Like I put my ass and like gotall the dishes done and cleaned
up last night and I was likenice work, man.
And I just said that to myself.
It's different, it's not reallya celebration in the way he's
trying to get people tocelebrate, because what he wants
(35:09):
people to do is feel thatdopamine rush from that
celebration.
So he's saying things like youshould be visualizing, like what
it looks like.
You know how you feel when youcome home and your kids greet
you at your door or one of yourpets greet you at the door.
Like generate those thatfeeling of warmth and excitement
when you're doing like thesemundane little things.
And that's where I have aproblem I disconnect, I can't.
(35:32):
I can't do that.
So I need something else andthat might work for some people.
It doesn't work for me.
Charles (35:37):
I mean that, and you know, speaking of the last
episode of trying to be lessjudgmental than I was when I was
younger, it's like if somebodyis telling me that you know,
after they, after they put theirgym shoes on or their you know,
they gave themselves one ofthese.
And it's like if that's all ittakes for you, what is wrong
(35:58):
with you like like you've got alife where doing this for
yourself like that makes youfeel something.
Like that makes me feel likenothing.
What?
Dan (36:07):
is yeah.
So I think I think I thinkwhere the gap needs to be then
is you need to really kind offigure out okay, do some real
planning in advance and go allright, look, get some of those
smaller milestones in place thatactually mean something to you.
Charles (36:20):
Well, that's, yeah, that's the thing, and know that
you are getting there and it'snot going to be a very long
distance, being able to writeout a list of what actually
makes me freaking feel good,like what does it take for me to
like feel like something goodhas just happened in my life or
I've accomplished something, andtaking a list from somebody
else of very, you know, minorthings.
(36:41):
It's like, yeah, I, I wish that.
And look, maybe that's becausemy dopaminergic system is
completely blown out fromscrolling instagram all day.
Dan (36:49):
Or what you're not the only one.
Charles (36:50):
Yeah, I mean, I don't know.
It's hard for me to relate tosomebody who could literally say
you know, I didn't feel likegoing to the gym today.
But I went to the gym and then,after I was done with the gym,
when I got to my car, Iliterally patted myself on the
back and that moved the needle.
I was like yeah what?
how that moved, what Like?
(37:11):
The only needle that moves forme is the I feel stupid needle.
Yeah, yeah, but I'm willing toaccept that there could be
people out there that thatactually does something for them
, but for whatever reason, I'mnot one of them.
Dan (37:22):
You've actually given me some good ideas for for, for
helping people with this andcoaching myself as well, just as
this conversation thinkingabout this now, so kind of
combining a little bit of bothof those approaches where,
instead of going to thecelebration piece, it's how do
we take that bigger goal andwhat are similar goals along the
way that aren't necessarilyimmediate, but closer than yeah,
(37:46):
it's not going to happentomorrow, it's not going to
happen next week, but maybe nextmonth.
This big thing is going tohappen.
I'm going to.
That's enough for me to go.
I'm going to keep going to thegym because this thing's getting
closer and it's like I see, Itaste it, whereas a marathon
could be a year away, and it'slike on a day-to-day basis.
Charles (38:09):
That's going to wear off and from the little bit For
most people yeah, that what'sher name again the chick with
the Gretchen Rubin A little bit.
From what I've seen of her onYouTube, I believe that there
are some people that settingthat a year from now, I'm going
to be in a bodybuildingcompetition or I'm going to run
a marathon, like there are somepeople that just paying the
registration fee and getting iton their calendar is for them
(38:31):
and it was like God that feelslike a different species for me,
Like I could not imagine beingthe kind of person that all I
have to do is put it on my pay,the registration fee, get it on
my calendar and that's enough tochange the way that I behave.
When I wake up 26 days from nowwhat are you kidding me?
It's like uh, yeah, I, I wish,I wish it was that easy for me,
but I've got to accept that I'mnot one of those people.
(38:53):
That means that there areprobably some things that I'm
good at that those kinds ofpeople are not good at.
Yeah, I don't know what theyare, but they've got to exist.
Dan (39:01):
And you'll never know.
You'll never know, right, butfor me, I think my takeaway from
this conversation is I'm goingto look at some of these
slightly longer term goals andI'm going to start, you know,
reverse engineering them intofun milestones, exciting
milestones.
For me, that maybe isn't that'sgoing to lead me to being able
to achieve that bigger goal.
Right, one of the one, one ofthe things and focus more on on
(39:21):
how I can derive joy andpleasure from those little
milestones, and it's going totake a little brainstorming to
do that, but I think.
I think it's going to beeffective for me.
So I don't know All right Again.
Charles (39:31):
don't know how much of this stays in the podcast, but
at least you and I had some goodconversations.
See, we'll see how much stupidshit we're talking about.
Talk to you later, dan.
All right, bye-bye.
Thanks for listening all theway through this episode of
Mindfully Masculine.
It really matters and we'regrateful you're here with us.
Be sure to check outmindfullymasculinecom, where you
can find.
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