August 18, 2025 • 39 mins
In this episode of Mindfully Masculine, Charles and Dan unpack Chapters 14 and 15 of The Let Them Theory—and the uncomfortable truth that you can’t force anyone to change.
We dive into why pressure backfires, why rescuing keeps people stuck, and how the most powerful form of influence comes from backing off. From partners and kids to friends and coworkers, if you’ve ever tried to “fix” someone, this one will sting a little.
Highlights include:
- The real reason people only change when they’re ready
- How rescuing prevents rock-bottom moments that spark growth
- Why the urge to fix others says more about you than them
- The ABC Loop: Apologize, Back Off, Celebrate
- Deciding if it’s time to accept… or walk away
If you’re tired of banging your head against the wall trying to “save” someone, listen in. This conversation might be the reset you didn’t know you needed.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Charles (00:00):
A is apologize Like apologize for what?
What did I do wrong?
Probably the way you'veapproached this in the past,
pressure you've provided Exactlyyes, either yeah, by what
you've said, what you've done,the resentment you may have
built up from not seeing thechange after so many
conversations about it, there'sprobably something to apologize
(00:20):
for.
Yeah, to say, even if it's justhey, I've not handled this the
best way that I could, andthat's not saying I'm a bad
person, that's not saying I didall these things wrong, it's
just hey.
I regret the fact that in thepast I've banged my head against
the wall trying to solve thisproblem in a way that wasn't
going to work.
Sorry about that.
(00:42):
Welcome to the MindfullyMasculine Podcast.
This is Charles.
Today, dan and I are divinginto chapters 14 and 15 of the
Let them Theory by Mel Robbins.
These chapters hit hard on oneof the toughest truths in
relationships you can't makeanyone change.
We'll talk about why pressurebackfires, why people only
change when they're ready, andhow to move from rescuing and
(01:02):
controlling to actuallyinfluencing in a healthy way.
If you've ever felt stuckwatching someone you love repeat
the same patterns, or if you'vebeen on the other side of that
pressure, this one will land foryou.
Check out mindfullymasculinecomfor all our episodes and
anything else we feel likesharing Enjoy.
Dan (01:18):
Hey Charles, good morning, good morning Dan, how are you?
Charles (01:21):
I am great how a little exhausted it's been.
Uh, it's been a busy couple ofdays.
Dan (01:27):
I'm sure I don't have to tell you that taylor swift has
announced her new album oh, youdid need to tell me okay, uh,
and so you've been busylistening to it don't.
Charles (01:38):
Is it the day?
No, no, it's only.
It's only been announced.
It's not.
It's not released until october3rd and it's causing you
sleepless nights.
Available for pre-order, but,okay, a lot of the um, the
swifty talk, my, my instagramfeed is just full of all taylor
swift accounts and all of theeaster eggs and conspiracy
theories and everything tryingto figure out.
(01:58):
You know what it's going to beabout.
Who's going to be producing thetracks?
there's a lot going on yeah, andlast night she was on the
kelsey brothers travis and jasonhave a podcast, okay, and she
was the special guest she's Idon't think she's ever done any
podcast before, so this was thefirst time and she was on there
to announce the name of thealbum, the track list, when it
(02:20):
was going to be released and, uh, I've seen quite a few women
comment online where she's liketaylor, the most amazing,
unbelievable thing taylor swifthas ever accomplished is getting
me to listen to a podcasthosted by two men, and to those
swifties who feel that way, Iwould like to say we also have a
podcast hosted by two men.
We will talk about football farless than the kelsey brothers
(02:43):
will uh huh.
Dan (02:43):
We'll talk about football far less than the Kelsey
brothers will Uh-huh.
We'll talk about emotions andfeelings, a whole lot more,
that's true, uh-huh.
Charles (02:48):
They've only had Taylor Swift on their podcast one more
time than we've had her on ours.
Dan (02:52):
Good point, good point, okay, so it's one.
Nothing, all right, right.
Charles (02:56):
And so, yeah, I'm just and I'm not saying I love Taylor
Swift as much as her boyfriendtravis does.
Obviously that would beinsanity would it yes?
but I could make an argument.
I love her as much as jasonkelsey does, so I, uh, I will be
.
I will be sharing this clip, uh, on social media, trying to
encourage some of my fellowswifties to listen into our
(03:18):
podcast.
But yeah, it's uh.
The life of a showgirl will bereleased on October 3rd.
Now, I'm not like a a collectorSwifty, I'm not going to order.
You know, all four versions ofthe vinyl and all four versions
of the CD, and I think she'seven releasing a cassette of her
album.
Oh, good for her, I like that.
Dan (03:36):
Yeah, that's great.
Charles (03:38):
But uh, yeah, I will.
Oh, it's cool.
I will just be listening on myYouTube music premium
subscription.
Yet I have I'll be looking forthe eight track.
So I don't think she's makingone of those, but she lost me.
Dan (03:50):
Yeah, there it is.
Maybe it doesn't take much forme, though.
Charles (03:53):
Maybe I could reach out to her, but I was remembering
the last, the last time shereleased an album the tortured
poets department.
It just happened to coincidewith that weekend.
I went up to Omaha to eat somesteak and go to their amazing
zoo and just walking around abrand new city you've never been
to listening to some new musicthat you're excited about.
That was a good experience.
(04:13):
I had a lot of fun doing that.
Dan (04:14):
So question for you when you hear those songs again now,
does it bring you back big,exactly where you are in the zoo
at the time?
Charles (04:21):
Yeah, zoo, or crazy I was walking.
Yeah, all the music does I getthat?
Yeah, yeah, I get that a lottoo.
When, you know, I re-listenedto a lot of my favorite
audiobooks over and over, yeah,like, yeah, the jack reacher
series, the that's, that'sreally the only fiction that I
listen to regularly.
Whenever he and that guy churnsout a new book, you know every
year and, uh, I'll go back andand start the series, you know
(04:43):
every four or five years or soand listen to the audio books
again and uh, yeah, it's likethe images that pop into your
head of, like, oh, I remember,you know, driving to
Jacksonville listening to thischapter of the book and I, I
remember what car I was in.
Uh, sometimes I remember what Iwas wearing.
It's just that the way yourthose senses come together to
(05:05):
rebuild All the connections inthe neural network.
Yeah, that's crazy, but yeah, Iuh, yeah, I get that with music
too, obviously more, probablymore with music, but uh, yeah,
that, yeah, it's going to beexciting.
I don't have any plans to beanywhere on uh October 3rd when
it comes out, but uh, yeah,maybe maybe some sort of a work
(05:27):
trip or a conference orconvention will pop up where
I'll be able to uh listen to itin a novel place.
But anyway, yeah, so I'munabashedly excited about uh
more music from my favoritealways something good for us I
like absolutely.
All right, let me have a sip ofcoffee and then we'll start
talking about today's episode.
How dare you?
All right.
Dan (05:48):
Charles, how do you like your coffee?
Charles (05:51):
Well, we actually talked about this on way back
when we first started thepodcast.
I had decided that I wanted tochange two big things for gosh
2022, I guess it was.
I wanted to learn to liketomatoes and I wanted to learn
to like drinking my coffee.
Black Tomatoes have been harder.
(06:13):
Yeah, If we're.
I mean there's less seeds incoffee.
I get it.
That's true, there are lessseeds.
Dan (06:18):
Yeah.
Charles (06:18):
And I have found that you can find decent cheap coffee
coffee easier than you can finddecent cheap tomatoes.
Dan (06:27):
Yeah, for sure.
I mean the restaurants.
It's hard to figure out thequality of the tomatoes I
usually in the supermarkets.
If you get the like, you getlittle flavor bombs, like the
cherry tomatoes, and if you get,sometimes, the organic kind or
and the redder they aretypically, the more flavor
they're going to have, yeah, soI do, or the redder they are
(06:47):
typically, the more flavorthey're going to have them.
Charles (06:48):
So I do.
There was a while where, um, Iwas at either a whole foods or a
fresh market or something likethat, and they had the little
little vines of that's the onesI was talking about.
Yeah, yeah, so I got those andthen I would uh, when I was
making like my eggs and sausage,in the morning, I would roast
like three or four of them.
That's nice, yeah, and when,when they got roasted to the
point where they started tosplit that, that was a nice
little enhancement to my uh, tomy breakfast.
(07:10):
But yeah, I just I wish I coulddevelop more.
I'm pretty much at the pointnow where I will not ask someone
to leave tomatoes off of a tacoor a salad.
Dan (07:21):
Okay.
Charles (07:25):
I'll just go ahead and tacos, especially, or burritos,
right, I'll just go ahead andeat the diced tomatoes and it's
fine where five years ago Iwouldn't?
There's no way I would.
I would tell as I had, they hadall right it off.
But now it's just like okay,this doesn't taste so bad that
I'm gonna either inconveniencemyself by removing it from the
app that I'm ordering from ortelling somebody to leave it off
.
But yes, I like.
I like my coffee black.
How do you like yours Black aswell?
Dan (07:46):
Black, but I've been adding a little bit of I like it a
stronger and adding a little bitof almond milk to it just to
kind of lighten it up a littlebit.
So yeah, nothing crazy, but Iappreciate going out with
friends or whatever and theywill get.
Let them have sips of theircrazy concoctions and stuff like
that.
Charles (08:05):
But yeah, have sips of their crazy concoctions and
stuff like that.
But yeah, for me it's justgonna be black.
Now I don't get black coffee atstarbucks anymore because I
find that their brewed coffeealways tastes burnt to me.
So starbucks I only will getamericanos.
Yeah, because those just tastemilder to me, for whatever
reason yeah, me too, and theirbrewed coffees do yeah so, all
right, good talk, we'll see howmuch of it stays in all, all
right.
So this was a.
(08:25):
We got a couple of chaptershere, 14 and 15 about working on
other people when you when youwant, dare I say need other
people to change.
Mel Robbins in her book the letthem theory talks about how to
deal with that situation.
I wasn't going to, I was goingto say how to change other
people, but she doesn't really Iwouldn't say she attacks it
(08:46):
from.
Here's how you change otherpeople.
It's more of here's how youadjust and deal with the
situation when you feel likesomebody needs to change.
Yeah, chapter 14, the sort ofthe.
The key message of chapter 14is people are only going to
change when they feel likechanging themselves.
And I would say if, thenbecause there've been a ton of
ways in my life, even recently,where it's like I really want to
(09:07):
change this, like I I really dowant to change it, I mean it.
I try to set up a process and asystem and it's still really,
really hard.
Yeah, We've talked about thaton podcasts before.
When you look at how hard it isto change yourself, how are you
going to apply that to somebodyoutside of yourself?
You can't.
Dan (09:24):
It's really difficult for even yourself.
For me it's.
It's kind of like we talkedabout motivation this morning.
Right, it's like a really ablip on the radar.
It's a real, it's an urge,spike, a spike.
Motivation is a spike, andthat's the problem.
Is that motivation and I thinkshe mentions in one of the
chapters is if you're notfeeling enough pain from doing
what you're doing, you're notgoing to change.
(09:46):
Or if your drive isn't strongenough, consistent enough, to
want to stop doing what you'redoing, you're not going to do it
.
So, like you know, I've said Iwant to change, I want to do
this, I want to do this, I wantto do this, and then it's just
like, well, it's not strongenough or it doesn't last long
enough for you to actually dowhat's uncomfortable, to make
(10:07):
those changes.
Charles (10:08):
Yeah, and so we'll.
We'll get back to getting otherpeople to change first.
But when one of the thoughts Ihad when I was listening to this
chapter this morning on thedrive over was, um, in my case,
the times that I've been able topull off significant long-term
change, it's been one of twothings, ideally a combination of
the two.
One you get to that level ofjust either you could call it
(10:32):
disgust or fatigue or whateverwhere you're just like I can't
live this way anymore, you justcan't do it.
The pain the pain is there, yeah, or even if it's just, even if
it's not like when I was walkingaround 40 pounds bigger, I
wasn't in any kind of paincompared to where I am now.
It was just, yeah, it's just,even if it's not like when I was
walking around 40 pounds bigger, I wasn't in any kind of pain
compared to where I am now.
It was just like.
This is annoying, like you know.
Getting out of breath byputting my socks on, like that's
(10:53):
something I had, that washappening to me every day, like
bending over having your bellyfat push up into your lungs,
where it's like, okay, I've gotto hold my breath while I put my
socks on.
It's like that wasn't a painfulexperience, but it just ground
me down day after day.
And then also the way I lookedin the mirror and it's like a
whole bunch of things that I wasexposed to all the time.
At one point I finally saidthat's it.
(11:15):
I've had enough of this, I'mnot going to tolerate this
anymore.
But it was also, you know, I didhave fairly vivid memories of
in high school and college.
You know, me and my friendswould like literally stay up all
night playing full courtbasketball, just running back
and forth.
It's like so I know what it'slike to have the capacity to do
that and I remembered what itwas like and so, yeah, there was
.
I couldn't gaslight myself intobelieving.
(11:36):
Oh well, you're 35 years old,it's natural for you not to be
able to put your socks on.
Good, oh, got a breath.
Got it.
But, yeah, also also the factthat, okay, I'm in this you know
weird transition period ofbeing going from a married guy
to being a single guy, it's likethis That'll wake you up on so
many fronts.
Yeah, it's also like let's justbig change.
Yeah, here's, here's a way Ican feel better about yourself,
(12:21):
or at least better aboutyourself when you want to change
, whether it's you know how muchyou consume alcohol, or getting
into therapy or losing weightor giving up smoking.
If you just put yourself into agroup of people that the sole
reason that they get togetherand socialize is because they're
all trying to overcome thething that you want to overcome,
that's powerful, it's extremelypowerful.
(12:42):
And I've I've found that throughthe men's group that I go to,
it's like we're all there towork on pretty much the same
thing and talk about how workingon it this you know, we get
together once a week and talkabout how working on it for the
last seven days has gone.
It's so much easier when you'vegot that and I don't know
exactly how that I mean with,obviously, alcohol codependence.
It's like, okay, there aregroups specifically made for
(13:04):
overcoming those challenges withtrying to drop some weight or
get better at managing yourfinances or there are other
areas where it's a little harderto see exactly organically how
you can find that tribe ofpeople.
But that, yeah, I really do saythat if you can both get to the
point where you're disgustedand plug yourself into a group
(13:26):
of people that are trying toaccomplish the same thing you
are and just spend as much timearound them as you possibly can,
yeah sure.
Dan (13:37):
It's going to make it so much easier from being in that
group, just from casualconversations even in terms of
how I'm handling it, how I'mthinking about this.
I struggled and this is the wayI solved it Right and just that
.
The amount of additionalknowledge to get that from
somebody firsthand is.
Charles (13:56):
Yeah, and it does a lot for feelings of you know,
loneliness and isolation to the.
The one of the phrases thatpeople in recovery use a lot is
the idea of hearing your storycoming out of somebody else's
mouth and how, how enrichingthat is and how inspiring that
is.
Like, oh, this guy's, thisguy's going through the same
thing I'm going through and he's.
He's figured out a way to dealwith it for the last week, so
(14:18):
maybe I can too.
Dan (14:19):
Yeah.
Charles (14:19):
So that's uh.
Yeah, those are two, so we'llget back to you.
Know, how do you, how do youget somebody else to do that?
Well, you kind of don't.
And you know they've either gotto decide okay, I'm sick and
tired of living this way or I'mgoing to plug myself into a
group of people that areaccomplishing the thing that I
want to accomplish or, like Isaid, ideally both of those
(14:40):
things, and really all you coulddo is set up the environment
for them in non-invasive waysthat make it as easy as possible
for them to come to thoseconclusions.
Dan (14:53):
Yeah, and I'm not sure if you want to get into this point,
but but?
but she also talks aboutmodeling the behavior that you
want to see in that other person.
So in a way, you are kind ofdoing what you just said, which
is you're not creating a group,but you are creating at least
one other person in their lifethat is going not necessarily
(15:14):
going through what they're goingthrough, but is modeling the
change that you want to see inthat other person.
So at least it is, andhopefully you're doing it in a
way where you're not making themfeel bad about not being where
you are but you're modeling itand you're not necessarily
forcing it down their throat.
Charles (15:50):
You're showing them how to do it and then letting them
figure out.
It's a friend, a kid, a partnerthat you think there's
something big that they need tochange.
That's going to be anopportunity for either some
pretty nasty conflict or it'sgoing to be an opportunity for
some pretty high qualityconnection, and that connection
can come from the empathy of, Iguess, one of two things Either
they're struggling withsomething that I have not yet
done myself, so it's easy for meto understand how difficult it
(16:14):
must be for them because Ihaven't done it either, or it's
going to be.
They're struggling withsomething that I struggled
through and figured out how toget to the other side of.
So I still know how hard it isbecause I've had to do it myself
.
Yeah, and so I think either oneof those ways I mean we'll take,
you know, quitting smoking, forexample it's either you know
you think they need to quitsmoking, but you're still
(16:36):
smoking, and then it's like,okay, well, I haven't stopped
this myself.
So I know, you know, if, if Ithink it's important for them to
stop, but I'm still doing it,well, then yeah, clearly it's
hard to do, Otherwise I wouldhave.
I would have stopped doing itmyself, Sure, and if you did
stop doing it and you're waitingfor them to stop and hoping
that they stop and it's likeokay, well, even if you thought
(16:56):
that it was easy for you, youstill do have to kind of
acknowledge I had either aprocess or an experience that
changed my thinking on it, evenif it happened in a moment.
You went from the identity ofI'm a smoker to the identity I'm
I am no longer a smoker and inthat context it was probably.
Dan (17:15):
You were probably in a situation where somebody else
wasn't pressuring you and forcedyou to do it right.
Most likely most likely.
And even if they, and even ifthey were, how did you feel in
that environment?
probably not good, yeah soeither the idea you they came
down so hard on you that you hadno choice but to comply right,
which feels bad every time, andand mel acknowledges that's
(17:38):
where she came from, where shewas basically like forcing her
kids to basically or otherpeople to like do these changes,
and she acknowledges that sheraised her children in a way
that kind of helped bring aboutmore anxiety, which she had
herself.
Charles (17:55):
Yeah.
Dan (17:56):
Instead of really just allowing them you know, giving
them the support around them,dealing with the consequences of
feeling anxious so she tried tosolve their anxiety.
For example, she's talkingabout how her daughter would
come and try to sleep with them.
Uh, she was really young andher husband was livid with her
(18:18):
because she allowed her to do itfor like six months in a row
and all it did was she.
You know, her daughter wasscared of sleeping in her own
bed.
She tried to sleep with theparents and mel facilitated that
, instead of letting thedaughter figure out how to be
okay sleeping in her own bedright and because of that, she,
she, you know, she admits shedid it the wrong way.
She basically that and thenlater in life, the daughter
(18:40):
wasn't given, didn't have thetools to deal with anxiety in
other situations yeah, she wasteaching her daughter.
Charles (18:47):
yes, you're right to be scared to be in your own bed.
Right, because I'm giving youthis way out and obviously, if
you didn't need this way out, Iwouldn't be providing it and you
didn't figure out your own wayout.
Yeah, I was.
I was reminded for that section, thinking about you know when,
when my ex-wife and I got ourdog and it was like you know,
you get an eight or 10 week oldpuppy and you try to trait,
crane them so that they sleep intheir crate overnight, it was
(19:09):
just non-starred crying andwhining.
But you know, we, we were bothon the same page of okay, do we?
Do we want a week of roughnights or do we want 15 years of
a dog that doesn't know how tobehave?
It's good you had that, that,that insight to really, you know
, to look at it that way, wewere both and we were both on
(19:30):
board with it, whereas, like, weare not going to, we're going
to, we're going to just andhow'd that work out?
It wasn't.
I mean Holly was an amazing dogCause she I mean she listened
to my ex and I.
We took her through training.
I mean, when it comes to pets,especially dogs, I believe a
trained, obedient dog is a happydog because they're not
freaking out all the time,because they don't understand
(19:50):
where they are, like anuntrained dog thinks it's in a
pack with no leader.
Yes, so the uh and yeah, samewith with kids.
You know it's not.
They need to understand thatthere are calm, rational minds
in control of the situation.
And by indulging them with I'mscared to sleep in my own bed.
(20:12):
That's not the message you'resending.
Dan (20:14):
If they don't have the tools to figure out how to
handle it.
Right, right, so, or at leastthey need to develop those, and
that's the mission there, right?
Charles (20:21):
Yeah, and that's what?
Uh, yeah, one of the things Ithought about, um, when I was
listening to this was, you know,the, the impulse that we have
to control other people'sbehavior and modify other
people's behavior.
A lot of times, that comes from,you know, a lack of security on
our own part, where we are notwilling to take on the reality
(20:46):
of okay.
I either need to be okay withtolerating other people's
behavior or I need to removemyself from the situation.
And that's when it's veryimportant and very difficult to
be able to set those limits ofokay.
I need to be really honest withmyself about what's a deal
breaker and what's not a dealbreaker, because if it's my, my
(21:07):
hubby's carrying around some, uh, some visceral fat that I know
is going to lead to problems 20years down the line, and, uh, I
wish he was in a little bitbetter shape.
Or my husband gets drunk toomuch and gets verbally abusive
with me, I mean, you got todecide, okay, which, which of
these is tolerable, which ofthese can I say, all right, he's
(21:27):
going to, I'll let him handlehimself, and which one is it
going to?
I'm going to?
Let me get my ass out of thesituation.
Dan (21:33):
Yeah, yeah, I mean I think, yeah, it's a physical threat.
Charles (21:37):
I mean it's a no brainer in that case.
But it's hard, you know, mostof the time it's not that cut
and dry, it's not that black andwhite Right.
Dan (21:43):
So, for example, if you know your child grows up and
becomes an adult and then is indebt and has lots of credit card
debt and you see your parentbasically give them big sums of
money to kind of pay off thatcredit card debt, what happens
next we all see, right, yeah,and I think a lot of it is comes
back to the previous chaptersshe talks about is we are all
(22:06):
really children.
As adults, we are really justchildren in terms of our
emotions.
As the, the loving parent, alot of us don't have the ability
to handle our own discomfortand emotions.
That it's going to require tosay no, I'm not going to give
you that money to bail yourselfout of this debt, and you need
(22:27):
to.
She talks about having theability to say okay, look, you
got to put some conditions downand go look, you know what, I'll
loan you this money, but it'sgot to be paid back in such a
fashion, or you need to do X, yand Z type of thing in order to
really start to, I guess, changeyourself.
If you're not willing to dothat and feel uncomfortable when
(22:48):
you enforce those boundaries,that's where I think a lot of us
give in and say, all right.
Well, the screaming kid.
I can't deal with the screamingkid in the grocery store, the
toy store.
I'm just going to buy that foodor that toy for them because I
can't handle it Right.
Charles (23:16):
parents of friends it's always been the ones that are
like basically, I am anunlimited source of
conversations and hugs, butother than that, I'm not giving
you anything else unless Idecide that it's the right thing
to do for you.
Whether that's money, a car,co-signing, a loan it's like
I'll evaluate those on a on acase-by-case basis, but the only
thing you can absolutely counton me for is hugs and
conversations, and yeah so, somany of the time, so much of the
(23:37):
time, I've seen peoplestruggling with negative
behaviors or addictions and it'slike you know, right before
they're gonna hit rock bottom, aparent throws a mattress or a
trampoline underneath them when,in reality, the only thing that
would have slammed into theground and broken was the bad
behaviors.
It wasn't going to be theperson.
That's good, I like that, butthen you toss that magic.
(23:59):
Yeah, it's like, okay, live tofight, spend drink, shoot up,
whatever.
Dan (24:05):
It is another day no-transcript, and realizing
(24:49):
that if we do anything in termsof putting pressure on them,
trying to force them to change,it really is a reflection of
ourselves that we need to changethe things about us that we
need to change so that we canhandle them struggling and
feeling the consequences oftheir decisions and of not
(25:12):
changing.
Charles (25:13):
I've watched so many reality shows, documentaries
about addiction and how peopleare able to get out of it, where
there'll be a situation wherethe family is just like I
especially resonate with whenthe dad does this like I would
do anything to help him or her,I would do anything to get him
off this stuff, I'd do anythingto blah, blah, blah.
(25:34):
And then the counselor or thedoctor will be like, okay, well,
what you need to do is get ashealthy as you can for yourself.
Get into a program like Al-Anon, where you understand what it's
like to live with somebodywho's got an addiction.
Get into codependence,anonymous, get into a group like
(25:59):
that.
And it's like so many of theseguys are like I'd walk over
broken glass for my little girl.
Dan (26:01):
it's like, okay, we'll get in therapy oh, hold on, it's
like, oh, my like this expert istelling you the one thing that
you could do that would actuallyhelp.
Charles (26:03):
Yeah, like, uh, you know, I don't think that'll
actually work, so I'm just gonnanot do it keep doing it my way.
Dan (26:07):
yeah, the irony, though right, is this like, oh, I can't
, I can't do this little change,and yet you expect this other
person to do this monumentalchange.
Charles (26:17):
But the people that have something going on that you
think is so important that theyneed to change.
The most valuable thing you cangive them is the version of
your presence where you're atyour own, healthy, healthiest,
best, absolutely, yeah.
So, whatever it is that you'vegot going on, even if it's, you
know, something completelyunrelated to the issue, that
they need to change.
(26:37):
But it's very easy when it'slike okay, well, I want them to
be in better shape, so I need tobe in better shape.
I want them to be in therapy,so I should be in therapy.
Sometimes it's not one-to-onelike that, but you've got
something.
You know the fact that you'respending your all, you're all
this time around somebody thathas a problem so big that you
think it needs to change.
Yeah, that does shine a lighton yourself, like, okay, I've
(26:58):
got some work to do.
There's no way anybody who'scomplaining about my partner
needs to change this.
Anybody vocalizing thatcomplaint to themselves or
others.
They're not at 100 out of a 100when it comes to their own
mental health.
There's just no way, becausenone of us are.
But any of us who might beclose to that 100, 100, we're
not spending our timecomplaining about other people
(27:19):
needing to change.
Dan (27:20):
Yeah, right, yeah, you know , and I think if you really love
that person, use some of thatenergy, that that anxiety you
have of them doing what they'redoing.
Use that as some fuel and fireto do the thing that's difficult
for you.
That could be one of your whys,of why you are going to do that
change and that might keep yougoing.
(27:41):
It might be a little bit morethan that spike of that
motivation, right?
It's day in and day out you'reseeing this person struggle.
That's a lot of spikes ofmotivation of why you should go
out and become that person thatyou want that other person to be
.
Charles (27:56):
Sometimes focusing on other people's problems as a way
you can distract yourself fromnot doing the work that you need
to do in your own life and justkind of ask yourself is there a
chance I might be doing some ofthat?
Is there something big that Iwish I was working on, but it's?
It feels too hard, so it'seasier for me to tell them about
(28:16):
what they need to fix.
Absolutely yeah, I, I know I'vebeen in that position before.
So okay, here's let's get intowhat does work.
Uh, the ABC of influence.
Accept their current state,their timeline, their readiness
level, their autonomy.
Be supportive without pressure,available without pushing,
patient with the process andconsistent in your own actions.
(28:39):
Create a safe space for change,opportunities for growth,
positive environment and naturalmotivation.
So there's a couple ABCs inhere.
The first one is that ABC ofinfluence.
The next one is the ABC loop ofhere's how you can actually
influence them in a positive way.
A is apologize, like apologizefor what?
What did I do wrong?
Probably the way you'veapproached this in the past,
(29:02):
pressure you've provided Exactly.
Yes, either yeah, by whatyou've said, what you've done,
the resentment you may havebuilt up from not seeing the
change after so manyconversations about it.
There's probably something toapologize for, yeah To say, even
if it's just hey, I've nothandled this the best way that I
could.
Dan (29:20):
Yeah.
Charles (29:21):
And you know that's.
That's not saying I'm a badperson, that's not saying I did
all these things wrong.
It's just, hey, I.
I regret the fact that in thepast I've banged my head against
the wall trying to solve thisproblem in a way that wasn't
going to work.
Sorry about that Way to startany important conversation with
somebody.
Yeah, hey, dan.
First let me apologize.
Dan (29:41):
Yeah, because you're being vulnerable, you're putting
yourself out there first.
Charles (29:44):
Yeah, so that's, I agree with her on that technique
.
Then second one is back off andobserve their behavior.
Dan (29:54):
So apologize to them, say what you've done wrong and then
mean what you said by backingoff Absolutely.
Right If you don't back off andit's kind of like, well, just
apologize.
Charles (30:00):
Yeah, what kind of apology, sorry.
Dan (30:01):
What do?
Charles (30:02):
you mean the pressure Sorry for all the pressure that
I've been putting you under tochange this and the pressure
will resume tomorrow morning.
No, that's not going to behelpful in accomplishing the
goal whatsoever.
So back off and observe, andshe said sometimes I think she
said minimum of six months ofbacking off and observing,
because it takes, becausethey're not going to believe it
(30:24):
at first, even even if they'renot openly saying I don't
believe you're sorry, I don'tbelieve you're going to back off
.
Yeah, it's like you've got toshow them over an extended
period of time like no, I'mserious about changing the way
that I behave about this issue.
Dan (30:38):
I mean that's the thing, right?
If you've been behaving thisway for years, words don't mean
nearly as much as actions andyou may have pre-programmed
their mind and their assumptionsto feel and to look at you as
somebody who provides pressurein this area and I know actually
it happened with my sister is.
For many years I would pressureher to try to change her, like
(31:00):
the way she handles finances,and you know, recently I've
backed off or in the last fewyears, whatever, I've definitely
backed off, but even thiscasual conversations.
Now she's very reluctant totalk to me about financial stuff
and she's said differentphrases and words that have led
me believe that she still thinksthat I'm gonna be judgmental
(31:22):
about it and I have tried toreassure her.
I have reassured her thatthat's not the case and that
this is different.
But you know what I've not done, I've never done like a formal
apology, so I'm gonna do thatthe week's time I talk to her.
All right, let me talk.
That's a piece that I didn'tlearn about until this book.
Yeah, ironically, she's the onewho told me about this book.
(31:43):
Oh, yeah, yeah, Okay, that'sher way of manipulating,
controlling me, to try to get meto apologize.
Charles (31:54):
Yeah, son of a, there's this great book called.
You might want to pasteparticular tess in chapter 14.
Yeah, megan, yeah, I, Idefinitely.
Uh, I like to think I'vemellowed out with.
I mean, you wouldn't be able totell by listening to this show,
but I've mellowed out with howjudgmental I am with people,
certainly a lot from college,young adult years and uh, yeah,
I'm.
I am sure that even when we talkto our friend Rob my friend
(32:16):
from college, your friend, sinceI provided that link to you and
our friend of the show he'sbeen on a few times I'm sure
that there are probably sometopics that we get into when he
and I are discussing things,when he is probably prepared for
judgmental 22 year old Charlesto rear his head about things
(32:37):
and that could be a bit of abummer.
And uh, yeah, I, you know.
But I find with most people,you know when, when you go from,
we just live life and you havesuccesses and failures and you
get chewed up and spit out alittle bit, most people tend to
get less judgmental with age,and then I mean, I guess some
generations, then you get reallyold, you get less judgmental
with age and then I mean, Iguess some generations.
Then you get really old, youget super judgmental again, so
(32:57):
hopefully I can avoid that one.
But yeah, so observe thebehavior and really that's good
for both you and them, becauseif you're, if you the backing
off part, not only does itincrease the chances that
they'll actually change thething you want them to change,
but the act of backing off isalso good for you because you
don't feel like so much of youridentity is tied up in whether
(33:20):
or not they choose to do thisthing that you've told them is
important to you.
Dan (33:24):
Or your feelings are no longer tied to that as much
either Right it's.
I feel if you're investing timeand energy in trying to control
something and control somethingyou can't control and it's not
giving you the results that youwant, yeah, that's not great for
your emotional state.
Charles (33:44):
The last one is celebrate progress while
modeling change and celebratingthe little victories is
something we learned quite a bitfrom with the tiny habits as
well.
And we learned quite a bit fromwith the tiny habits as well,
and I would just say you mayhave an impulse.
I especially think about thisbecause of my own experience
where, with kids, when you'retrying to, I think some parents
(34:06):
can go a little over the topwith celebrating little
victories to the point where itfeels weird and cringy and
disingenuous.
And I think that could probablybe the case with partners and
friends as well, where you know,just a very kind of for me,
what would work the best is avery low key approach, like, hey
(34:26):
, I noticed that you, uh, you'vebeen doing some work in this
area and just wanted to, justwant to let you know I've
noticed good for you.
The D and E is, uh, what we'vealluded to a little bit already,
which is decide if this is adeal breaker.
Is this behavior trulyunacceptable?
Can you accept them as they are?
What are your truenon-negotiables?
And I've yeah, I've counseledand advised friends in
(34:47):
situations where it's like I'mnot happy with my partner and my
relationship.
I was like, okay.
Well, what's the plan You'regoing to?
You're going to get happy orare you going to stop
complaining, because those arethe only two things that are
really in your power to do?
You know, option three of Iwant to snap my fingers and have
them change all the things Idon't like.
Well, okay, you can want thatif you want to, but if it was
(35:11):
going to happen, it would havealready happened, so that's not
on the table.
So are you going to developwithin yourself a way to say I
am truly and honestly okay withthis the way that it is, or are
you going to remove yourselffrom the situation?
Because, in many cases, thoseare the only two choices that
you have Learn to accept it orlearn to leave it, and so many
(35:33):
of us, though, we're just like.
I'm not going to do either ofthose.
The thing about boundaries is,the successful implementation of
a boundary is unrelated towhether the relationship
continues to exist or not.
Yeah, you set the boundary, youmaintain the boundary, and then
whether or not the relationshipsurvives is just a symptom of
the choice you've made to setand hold the boundary.
And if you you've chosen theright boundary, you vocalized it
(35:57):
and you've held it in the rightway, then, whether that
person's still in your life ornot, it'll work itself out and
you'll know that it's the right,the right choice.
Yeah, so, okay.
So that's that's where we arewith chapters 14 and 15.
I felt like most of what she hadto say in here was pretty good,
the only thing that I I it didseem to she focused a little bit
(36:21):
more on doing things likebacking off because of how it
affects the other person, whereI tend to say do the backing off
because it's good for you andwhether that affects them,
changes them or not, it's theright thing for you to do for
yourself offer the apology, backoff and then go ahead and
(36:44):
celebrate the little victoriesand that's the right thing to do
, whether they ever change ornot.
Oh yeah, and just adopt thispattern of behavior and then
decide.
You know whether this isassuming you're doing those
things and it never changes.
Are you still okay with therelationship?
If the answer is no, then youknow, after at least the six
months that she recommends ofbacking off.
(37:05):
Then you could decide whetheryou should stick around or not.
Dan (37:07):
Good point.
Charles (37:08):
And I mean, you know, depending on how dangerous or
disruptive the behavior is,maybe you don't give it six
months.
I mean, if it's something thatis really harming your mental or
physical health, then it'seither, you know, stop this
right now, if this ever happensagain, I'm out of here and then
and then deliver on that promise, right.
But if it's something that youthink you can live with, give
some time to see the change.
(37:28):
Because again, if hey, I'mgoing to, I'm going to back off.
And again, if hey, I'm going to, I'm going to back off.
Like, okay, I mean, even if areally honest person says that
who's been nagging you for awhile, it's just it's not going
to come natural for you tobelieve that they're actually
going to back off.
Like, I believe you want toback off, I believe that you
(37:50):
think it's a good idea.
Dan (37:51):
But, just like you, want to see the change in me.
Like I need to see the changein you, yeah, in me.
Like I need to see the changein you yeah.
I think I think the key herewould be to verbalize the
apology, not the backing offright, it's, I think.
Charles (38:01):
I mean, I think the commitment to back off should be
part of the apology yeah youknow what I mean.
Just to say, hey, as long asthey'll also let, all the
nagging I've been doing is wrongand I'm not going to do that
anymore that's something likeokay, that's different versus
I'm, you know my concern wasYou're going to sit back and
stare at you to see if youchange, to come across that way.
Dan (38:20):
Or come across that you're not going to support them
anymore.
Certainly Could also mean hey,and that's not the case here.
You're still there to supportthem in whatever way you're
comfortable with, obviously, butin a way that is not going to
be you forcing that support onthem.
It's them saying hey, I'mproviding the space here, Right,
(38:40):
If you need support.
Charles (38:42):
Yeah, I see what you're saying.
You don't want to make it soundlike I'm washing my hands.
Dan (38:45):
Exactly, yeah, right, right , you know, yeah, that's exactly
what I'm trying to say.
Charles (38:47):
Yeah, sorry for not realizing this was a task, so
now I am done with you.
You don't want to come acrossthat way.
I agree, all right, so let'sstop there and next time we will
, uh, come back with chapters 16and 17.
Sounds good, thanks, dan.
Thanks for listening to all theway through this episode of the
mindfully masculine podcast.
If today's conversation onchange and influence resonated
(39:08):
with you, share this episodewith a friend who might need it,
and remember you can alwaysfind our full library of
episodes, audio and video, atmindfullymasculine.
A is apologize Like apologize for what?
What did I do wrong?
Probably the way you'veapproached this in the past,
pressure you've provided Exactlyyes, either yeah, by what
you've said, what you've done,the resentment you may have
built up from not seeing thechange after so many
conversations about it, there'sprobably something to apologize
(00:20):
for.
Yeah, to say, even if it's justhey, I've not handled this the
best way that I could, andthat's not saying I'm a bad
person, that's not saying I didall these things wrong, it's
just hey.
I regret the fact that in thepast I've banged my head against
the wall trying to solve thisproblem in a way that wasn't
going to work.
Sorry about that.
(00:42):
Welcome to the MindfullyMasculine Podcast.
This is Charles.
Today, dan and I are divinginto chapters 14 and 15 of the
Let them Theory by Mel Robbins.
These chapters hit hard on oneof the toughest truths in
relationships you can't makeanyone change.
We'll talk about why pressurebackfires, why people only
change when they're ready, andhow to move from rescuing and
(01:02):
controlling to actuallyinfluencing in a healthy way.
If you've ever felt stuckwatching someone you love repeat
the same patterns, or if you'vebeen on the other side of that
pressure, this one will land foryou.
Check out mindfullymasculinecomfor all our episodes and
anything else we feel likesharing Enjoy.
Dan (01:18):
Hey Charles, good morning, good morning Dan, how are you?
Charles (01:21):
I am great how a little exhausted it's been.
Uh, it's been a busy couple ofdays.
Dan (01:27):
I'm sure I don't have to tell you that taylor swift has
announced her new album oh, youdid need to tell me okay, uh,
and so you've been busylistening to it don't.
Charles (01:38):
Is it the day?
No, no, it's only.
It's only been announced.
It's not.
It's not released until october3rd and it's causing you
sleepless nights.
Available for pre-order, but,okay, a lot of the um, the
swifty talk, my, my instagramfeed is just full of all taylor
swift accounts and all of theeaster eggs and conspiracy
theories and everything tryingto figure out.
(01:58):
You know what it's going to beabout.
Who's going to be producing thetracks?
there's a lot going on yeah, andlast night she was on the
kelsey brothers travis and jasonhave a podcast, okay, and she
was the special guest she's Idon't think she's ever done any
podcast before, so this was thefirst time and she was on there
to announce the name of thealbum, the track list, when it
(02:20):
was going to be released and, uh, I've seen quite a few women
comment online where she's liketaylor, the most amazing,
unbelievable thing taylor swifthas ever accomplished is getting
me to listen to a podcasthosted by two men, and to those
swifties who feel that way, Iwould like to say we also have a
podcast hosted by two men.
We will talk about football farless than the kelsey brothers
(02:43):
will uh huh.
Dan (02:43):
We'll talk about football far less than the Kelsey
brothers will Uh-huh.
We'll talk about emotions andfeelings, a whole lot more,
that's true, uh-huh.
Charles (02:48):
They've only had Taylor Swift on their podcast one more
time than we've had her on ours.
Dan (02:52):
Good point, good point, okay, so it's one.
Nothing, all right, right.
Charles (02:56):
And so, yeah, I'm just and I'm not saying I love Taylor
Swift as much as her boyfriendtravis does.
Obviously that would beinsanity would it yes?
but I could make an argument.
I love her as much as jasonkelsey does, so I, uh, I will be
.
I will be sharing this clip, uh, on social media, trying to
encourage some of my fellowswifties to listen into our
(03:18):
podcast.
But yeah, it's uh.
The life of a showgirl will bereleased on October 3rd.
Now, I'm not like a a collectorSwifty, I'm not going to order.
You know, all four versions ofthe vinyl and all four versions
of the CD, and I think she'seven releasing a cassette of her
album.
Oh, good for her, I like that.
Dan (03:36):
Yeah, that's great.
Charles (03:38):
But uh, yeah, I will.
Oh, it's cool.
I will just be listening on myYouTube music premium
subscription.
Yet I have I'll be looking forthe eight track.
So I don't think she's makingone of those, but she lost me.
Dan (03:50):
Yeah, there it is.
Maybe it doesn't take much forme, though.
Charles (03:53):
Maybe I could reach out to her, but I was remembering
the last, the last time shereleased an album the tortured
poets department.
It just happened to coincidewith that weekend.
I went up to Omaha to eat somesteak and go to their amazing
zoo and just walking around abrand new city you've never been
to listening to some new musicthat you're excited about.
That was a good experience.
(04:13):
I had a lot of fun doing that.
Dan (04:14):
So question for you when you hear those songs again now,
does it bring you back big,exactly where you are in the zoo
at the time?
Charles (04:21):
Yeah, zoo, or crazy I was walking.
Yeah, all the music does I getthat?
Yeah, yeah, I get that a lottoo.
When, you know, I re-listenedto a lot of my favorite
audiobooks over and over, yeah,like, yeah, the jack reacher
series, the that's, that'sreally the only fiction that I
listen to regularly.
Whenever he and that guy churnsout a new book, you know every
year and, uh, I'll go back andand start the series, you know
(04:43):
every four or five years or soand listen to the audio books
again and uh, yeah, it's likethe images that pop into your
head of, like, oh, I remember,you know, driving to
Jacksonville listening to thischapter of the book and I, I
remember what car I was in.
Uh, sometimes I remember what Iwas wearing.
It's just that the way yourthose senses come together to
(05:05):
rebuild All the connections inthe neural network.
Yeah, that's crazy, but yeah, Iuh, yeah, I get that with music
too, obviously more, probablymore with music, but uh, yeah,
that, yeah, it's going to beexciting.
I don't have any plans to beanywhere on uh October 3rd when
it comes out, but uh, yeah,maybe maybe some sort of a work
(05:27):
trip or a conference orconvention will pop up where
I'll be able to uh listen to itin a novel place.
But anyway, yeah, so I'munabashedly excited about uh
more music from my favoritealways something good for us I
like absolutely.
All right, let me have a sip ofcoffee and then we'll start
talking about today's episode.
How dare you?
All right.
Dan (05:48):
Charles, how do you like your coffee?
Charles (05:51):
Well, we actually talked about this on way back
when we first started thepodcast.
I had decided that I wanted tochange two big things for gosh
2022, I guess it was.
I wanted to learn to liketomatoes and I wanted to learn
to like drinking my coffee.
Black Tomatoes have been harder.
(06:13):
Yeah, If we're.
I mean there's less seeds incoffee.
I get it.
That's true, there are lessseeds.
Dan (06:18):
Yeah.
Charles (06:18):
And I have found that you can find decent cheap coffee
coffee easier than you can finddecent cheap tomatoes.
Dan (06:27):
Yeah, for sure.
I mean the restaurants.
It's hard to figure out thequality of the tomatoes I
usually in the supermarkets.
If you get the like, you getlittle flavor bombs, like the
cherry tomatoes, and if you get,sometimes, the organic kind or
and the redder they aretypically, the more flavor
they're going to have, yeah, soI do, or the redder they are
(06:47):
typically, the more flavorthey're going to have them.
Charles (06:48):
So I do.
There was a while where, um, Iwas at either a whole foods or a
fresh market or something likethat, and they had the little
little vines of that's the onesI was talking about.
Yeah, yeah, so I got those andthen I would uh, when I was
making like my eggs and sausage,in the morning, I would roast
like three or four of them.
That's nice, yeah, and when,when they got roasted to the
point where they started tosplit that, that was a nice
little enhancement to my uh, tomy breakfast.
(07:10):
But yeah, I just I wish I coulddevelop more.
I'm pretty much at the pointnow where I will not ask someone
to leave tomatoes off of a tacoor a salad.
Dan (07:21):
Okay.
Charles (07:25):
I'll just go ahead and tacos, especially, or burritos,
right, I'll just go ahead andeat the diced tomatoes and it's
fine where five years ago Iwouldn't?
There's no way I would.
I would tell as I had, they hadall right it off.
But now it's just like okay,this doesn't taste so bad that
I'm gonna either inconveniencemyself by removing it from the
app that I'm ordering from ortelling somebody to leave it off
.
But yes, I like.
I like my coffee black.
How do you like yours Black aswell?
Dan (07:46):
Black, but I've been adding a little bit of I like it a
stronger and adding a little bitof almond milk to it just to
kind of lighten it up a littlebit.
So yeah, nothing crazy, but Iappreciate going out with
friends or whatever and theywill get.
Let them have sips of theircrazy concoctions and stuff like
that.
Charles (08:05):
But yeah, have sips of their crazy concoctions and
stuff like that.
But yeah, for me it's justgonna be black.
Now I don't get black coffee atstarbucks anymore because I
find that their brewed coffeealways tastes burnt to me.
So starbucks I only will getamericanos.
Yeah, because those just tastemilder to me, for whatever
reason yeah, me too, and theirbrewed coffees do yeah so, all
right, good talk, we'll see howmuch of it stays in all, all
right.
So this was a.
(08:25):
We got a couple of chaptershere, 14 and 15 about working on
other people when you when youwant, dare I say need other
people to change.
Mel Robbins in her book the letthem theory talks about how to
deal with that situation.
I wasn't going to, I was goingto say how to change other
people, but she doesn't really Iwouldn't say she attacks it
(08:46):
from.
Here's how you change otherpeople.
It's more of here's how youadjust and deal with the
situation when you feel likesomebody needs to change.
Yeah, chapter 14, the sort ofthe.
The key message of chapter 14is people are only going to
change when they feel likechanging themselves.
And I would say if, thenbecause there've been a ton of
ways in my life, even recently,where it's like I really want to
(09:07):
change this, like I I really dowant to change it, I mean it.
I try to set up a process and asystem and it's still really,
really hard.
Yeah, We've talked about thaton podcasts before.
When you look at how hard it isto change yourself, how are you
going to apply that to somebodyoutside of yourself?
You can't.
Dan (09:24):
It's really difficult for even yourself.
For me it's.
It's kind of like we talkedabout motivation this morning.
Right, it's like a really ablip on the radar.
It's a real, it's an urge,spike, a spike.
Motivation is a spike, andthat's the problem.
Is that motivation and I thinkshe mentions in one of the
chapters is if you're notfeeling enough pain from doing
what you're doing, you're notgoing to change.
(09:46):
Or if your drive isn't strongenough, consistent enough, to
want to stop doing what you'redoing, you're not going to do it
.
So, like you know, I've said Iwant to change, I want to do
this, I want to do this, I wantto do this, and then it's just
like, well, it's not strongenough or it doesn't last long
enough for you to actually dowhat's uncomfortable, to make
(10:07):
those changes.
Charles (10:08):
Yeah, and so we'll.
We'll get back to getting otherpeople to change first.
But when one of the thoughts Ihad when I was listening to this
chapter this morning on thedrive over was, um, in my case,
the times that I've been able topull off significant long-term
change, it's been one of twothings, ideally a combination of
the two.
One you get to that level ofjust either you could call it
(10:32):
disgust or fatigue or whateverwhere you're just like I can't
live this way anymore, you justcan't do it.
The pain the pain is there, yeah, or even if it's just, even if
it's not like when I was walkingaround 40 pounds bigger, I
wasn't in any kind of paincompared to where I am now.
It was just, yeah, it's just,even if it's not like when I was
walking around 40 pounds bigger, I wasn't in any kind of pain
compared to where I am now.
It was just like.
This is annoying, like you know.
Getting out of breath byputting my socks on, like that's
(10:53):
something I had, that washappening to me every day, like
bending over having your bellyfat push up into your lungs,
where it's like, okay, I've gotto hold my breath while I put my
socks on.
It's like that wasn't a painfulexperience, but it just ground
me down day after day.
And then also the way I lookedin the mirror and it's like a
whole bunch of things that I wasexposed to all the time.
At one point I finally saidthat's it.
(11:15):
I've had enough of this, I'mnot going to tolerate this
anymore.
But it was also, you know, I didhave fairly vivid memories of
in high school and college.
You know, me and my friendswould like literally stay up all
night playing full courtbasketball, just running back
and forth.
It's like so I know what it'slike to have the capacity to do
that and I remembered what itwas like and so, yeah, there was
.
I couldn't gaslight myself intobelieving.
(11:36):
Oh well, you're 35 years old,it's natural for you not to be
able to put your socks on.
Good, oh, got a breath.
Got it.
But, yeah, also also the factthat, okay, I'm in this you know
weird transition period ofbeing going from a married guy
to being a single guy, it's likethis That'll wake you up on so
many fronts.
Yeah, it's also like let's justbig change.
Yeah, here's, here's a way Ican feel better about yourself,
(12:21):
or at least better aboutyourself when you want to change
, whether it's you know how muchyou consume alcohol, or getting
into therapy or losing weightor giving up smoking.
If you just put yourself into agroup of people that the sole
reason that they get togetherand socialize is because they're
all trying to overcome thething that you want to overcome,
that's powerful, it's extremelypowerful.
(12:42):
And I've I've found that throughthe men's group that I go to,
it's like we're all there towork on pretty much the same
thing and talk about how workingon it this you know, we get
together once a week and talkabout how working on it for the
last seven days has gone.
It's so much easier when you'vegot that and I don't know
exactly how that I mean with,obviously, alcohol codependence.
It's like, okay, there aregroups specifically made for
(13:04):
overcoming those challenges withtrying to drop some weight or
get better at managing yourfinances or there are other
areas where it's a little harderto see exactly organically how
you can find that tribe ofpeople.
But that, yeah, I really do saythat if you can both get to the
point where you're disgustedand plug yourself into a group
(13:26):
of people that are trying toaccomplish the same thing you
are and just spend as much timearound them as you possibly can,
yeah sure.
Dan (13:37):
It's going to make it so much easier from being in that
group, just from casualconversations even in terms of
how I'm handling it, how I'mthinking about this.
I struggled and this is the wayI solved it Right and just that
.
The amount of additionalknowledge to get that from
somebody firsthand is.
Charles (13:56):
Yeah, and it does a lot for feelings of you know,
loneliness and isolation to the.
The one of the phrases thatpeople in recovery use a lot is
the idea of hearing your storycoming out of somebody else's
mouth and how, how enrichingthat is and how inspiring that
is.
Like, oh, this guy's, thisguy's going through the same
thing I'm going through and he's.
He's figured out a way to dealwith it for the last week, so
(14:18):
maybe I can too.
Dan (14:19):
Yeah.
Charles (14:19):
So that's uh.
Yeah, those are two, so we'llget back to you.
Know, how do you, how do youget somebody else to do that?
Well, you kind of don't.
And you know they've either gotto decide okay, I'm sick and
tired of living this way or I'mgoing to plug myself into a
group of people that areaccomplishing the thing that I
want to accomplish or, like Isaid, ideally both of those
(14:40):
things, and really all you coulddo is set up the environment
for them in non-invasive waysthat make it as easy as possible
for them to come to thoseconclusions.
Dan (14:53):
Yeah, and I'm not sure if you want to get into this point,
but but?
but she also talks aboutmodeling the behavior that you
want to see in that other person.
So in a way, you are kind ofdoing what you just said, which
is you're not creating a group,but you are creating at least
one other person in their lifethat is going not necessarily
(15:14):
going through what they're goingthrough, but is modeling the
change that you want to see inthat other person.
So at least it is, andhopefully you're doing it in a
way where you're not making themfeel bad about not being where
you are but you're modeling itand you're not necessarily
forcing it down their throat.
Charles (15:50):
You're showing them how to do it and then letting them
figure out.
It's a friend, a kid, a partnerthat you think there's
something big that they need tochange.
That's going to be anopportunity for either some
pretty nasty conflict or it'sgoing to be an opportunity for
some pretty high qualityconnection, and that connection
can come from the empathy of, Iguess, one of two things Either
they're struggling withsomething that I have not yet
done myself, so it's easy for meto understand how difficult it
(16:14):
must be for them because Ihaven't done it either, or it's
going to be.
They're struggling withsomething that I struggled
through and figured out how toget to the other side of.
So I still know how hard it isbecause I've had to do it myself
.
Yeah, and so I think either oneof those ways I mean we'll take,
you know, quitting smoking, forexample it's either you know
you think they need to quitsmoking, but you're still
(16:36):
smoking, and then it's like,okay, well, I haven't stopped
this myself.
So I know, you know, if, if Ithink it's important for them to
stop, but I'm still doing it,well, then yeah, clearly it's
hard to do, Otherwise I wouldhave.
I would have stopped doing itmyself, Sure, and if you did
stop doing it and you're waitingfor them to stop and hoping
that they stop and it's likeokay, well, even if you thought
(16:56):
that it was easy for you, youstill do have to kind of
acknowledge I had either aprocess or an experience that
changed my thinking on it, evenif it happened in a moment.
You went from the identity ofI'm a smoker to the identity I'm
I am no longer a smoker and inthat context it was probably.
Dan (17:15):
You were probably in a situation where somebody else
wasn't pressuring you and forcedyou to do it right.
Most likely most likely.
And even if they, and even ifthey were, how did you feel in
that environment?
probably not good, yeah soeither the idea you they came
down so hard on you that you hadno choice but to comply right,
which feels bad every time, andand mel acknowledges that's
(17:38):
where she came from, where shewas basically like forcing her
kids to basically or otherpeople to like do these changes,
and she acknowledges that sheraised her children in a way
that kind of helped bring aboutmore anxiety, which she had
herself.
Charles (17:55):
Yeah.
Dan (17:56):
Instead of really just allowing them you know, giving
them the support around them,dealing with the consequences of
feeling anxious so she tried tosolve their anxiety.
For example, she's talkingabout how her daughter would
come and try to sleep with them.
Uh, she was really young andher husband was livid with her
(18:18):
because she allowed her to do itfor like six months in a row
and all it did was she.
You know, her daughter wasscared of sleeping in her own
bed.
She tried to sleep with theparents and mel facilitated that
, instead of letting thedaughter figure out how to be
okay sleeping in her own bedright and because of that, she,
she, you know, she admits shedid it the wrong way.
She basically that and thenlater in life, the daughter
(18:40):
wasn't given, didn't have thetools to deal with anxiety in
other situations yeah, she wasteaching her daughter.
Charles (18:47):
yes, you're right to be scared to be in your own bed.
Right, because I'm giving youthis way out and obviously, if
you didn't need this way out, Iwouldn't be providing it and you
didn't figure out your own wayout.
Yeah, I was.
I was reminded for that section, thinking about you know when,
when my ex-wife and I got ourdog and it was like you know,
you get an eight or 10 week oldpuppy and you try to trait,
crane them so that they sleep intheir crate overnight, it was
(19:09):
just non-starred crying andwhining.
But you know, we, we were bothon the same page of okay, do we?
Do we want a week of roughnights or do we want 15 years of
a dog that doesn't know how tobehave?
It's good you had that, that,that insight to really, you know
, to look at it that way, wewere both and we were both on
(19:30):
board with it, whereas, like, weare not going to, we're going
to, we're going to just andhow'd that work out?
It wasn't.
I mean Holly was an amazing dogCause she I mean she listened
to my ex and I.
We took her through training.
I mean, when it comes to pets,especially dogs, I believe a
trained, obedient dog is a happydog because they're not
freaking out all the time,because they don't understand
(19:50):
where they are, like anuntrained dog thinks it's in a
pack with no leader.
Yes, so the uh and yeah, samewith with kids.
You know it's not.
They need to understand thatthere are calm, rational minds
in control of the situation.
And by indulging them with I'mscared to sleep in my own bed.
(20:12):
That's not the message you'resending.
Dan (20:14):
If they don't have the tools to figure out how to
handle it.
Right, right, so, or at leastthey need to develop those, and
that's the mission there, right?
Charles (20:21):
Yeah, and that's what?
Uh, yeah, one of the things Ithought about, um, when I was
listening to this was, you know,the, the impulse that we have
to control other people'sbehavior and modify other
people's behavior.
A lot of times, that comes from,you know, a lack of security on
our own part, where we are notwilling to take on the reality
(20:46):
of okay.
I either need to be okay withtolerating other people's
behavior or I need to removemyself from the situation.
And that's when it's veryimportant and very difficult to
be able to set those limits ofokay.
I need to be really honest withmyself about what's a deal
breaker and what's not a dealbreaker, because if it's my, my
(21:07):
hubby's carrying around some, uh, some visceral fat that I know
is going to lead to problems 20years down the line, and, uh, I
wish he was in a little bitbetter shape.
Or my husband gets drunk toomuch and gets verbally abusive
with me, I mean, you got todecide, okay, which, which of
these is tolerable, which ofthese can I say, all right, he's
(21:27):
going to, I'll let him handlehimself, and which one is it
going to?
I'm going to?
Let me get my ass out of thesituation.
Dan (21:33):
Yeah, yeah, I mean I think, yeah, it's a physical threat.
Charles (21:37):
I mean it's a no brainer in that case.
But it's hard, you know, mostof the time it's not that cut
and dry, it's not that black andwhite Right.
Dan (21:43):
So, for example, if you know your child grows up and
becomes an adult and then is indebt and has lots of credit card
debt and you see your parentbasically give them big sums of
money to kind of pay off thatcredit card debt, what happens
next we all see, right, yeah,and I think a lot of it is comes
back to the previous chaptersshe talks about is we are all
(22:06):
really children.
As adults, we are really justchildren in terms of our
emotions.
As the, the loving parent, alot of us don't have the ability
to handle our own discomfortand emotions.
That it's going to require tosay no, I'm not going to give
you that money to bail yourselfout of this debt, and you need
(22:27):
to.
She talks about having theability to say okay, look, you
got to put some conditions downand go look, you know what, I'll
loan you this money, but it'sgot to be paid back in such a
fashion, or you need to do X, yand Z type of thing in order to
really start to, I guess, changeyourself.
If you're not willing to dothat and feel uncomfortable when
(22:48):
you enforce those boundaries,that's where I think a lot of us
give in and say, all right.
Well, the screaming kid.
I can't deal with the screamingkid in the grocery store, the
toy store.
I'm just going to buy that foodor that toy for them because I
can't handle it Right.
Charles (23:16):
parents of friends it's always been the ones that are
like basically, I am anunlimited source of
conversations and hugs, butother than that, I'm not giving
you anything else unless Idecide that it's the right thing
to do for you.
Whether that's money, a car,co-signing, a loan it's like
I'll evaluate those on a on acase-by-case basis, but the only
thing you can absolutely counton me for is hugs and
conversations, and yeah so, somany of the time, so much of the
(23:37):
time, I've seen peoplestruggling with negative
behaviors or addictions and it'slike you know, right before
they're gonna hit rock bottom, aparent throws a mattress or a
trampoline underneath them when,in reality, the only thing that
would have slammed into theground and broken was the bad
behaviors.
It wasn't going to be theperson.
That's good, I like that, butthen you toss that magic.
(23:59):
Yeah, it's like, okay, live tofight, spend drink, shoot up,
whatever.
Dan (24:05):
It is another day no-transcript, and realizing
(24:49):
that if we do anything in termsof putting pressure on them,
trying to force them to change,it really is a reflection of
ourselves that we need to changethe things about us that we
need to change so that we canhandle them struggling and
feeling the consequences oftheir decisions and of not
(25:12):
changing.
Charles (25:13):
I've watched so many reality shows, documentaries
about addiction and how peopleare able to get out of it, where
there'll be a situation wherethe family is just like I
especially resonate with whenthe dad does this like I would
do anything to help him or her,I would do anything to get him
off this stuff, I'd do anythingto blah, blah, blah.
(25:34):
And then the counselor or thedoctor will be like, okay, well,
what you need to do is get ashealthy as you can for yourself.
Get into a program like Al-Anon, where you understand what it's
like to live with somebodywho's got an addiction.
Get into codependence,anonymous, get into a group like
(25:59):
that.
And it's like so many of theseguys are like I'd walk over
broken glass for my little girl.
Dan (26:01):
it's like, okay, we'll get in therapy oh, hold on, it's
like, oh, my like this expert istelling you the one thing that
you could do that would actuallyhelp.
Charles (26:03):
Yeah, like, uh, you know, I don't think that'll
actually work, so I'm just gonnanot do it keep doing it my way.
Dan (26:07):
yeah, the irony, though right, is this like, oh, I can't
, I can't do this little change,and yet you expect this other
person to do this monumentalchange.
Charles (26:17):
But the people that have something going on that you
think is so important that theyneed to change.
The most valuable thing you cangive them is the version of
your presence where you're atyour own, healthy, healthiest,
best, absolutely, yeah.
So, whatever it is that you'vegot going on, even if it's, you
know, something completelyunrelated to the issue, that
they need to change.
(26:37):
But it's very easy when it'slike okay, well, I want them to
be in better shape, so I need tobe in better shape.
I want them to be in therapy,so I should be in therapy.
Sometimes it's not one-to-onelike that, but you've got
something.
You know the fact that you'respending your all, you're all
this time around somebody thathas a problem so big that you
think it needs to change.
Yeah, that does shine a lighton yourself, like, okay, I've
(26:58):
got some work to do.
There's no way anybody who'scomplaining about my partner
needs to change this.
Anybody vocalizing thatcomplaint to themselves or
others.
They're not at 100 out of a 100when it comes to their own
mental health.
There's just no way, becausenone of us are.
But any of us who might beclose to that 100, 100, we're
not spending our timecomplaining about other people
(27:19):
needing to change.
Dan (27:20):
Yeah, right, yeah, you know , and I think if you really love
that person, use some of thatenergy, that that anxiety you
have of them doing what they'redoing.
Use that as some fuel and fireto do the thing that's difficult
for you.
That could be one of your whys,of why you are going to do that
change and that might keep yougoing.
(27:41):
It might be a little bit morethan that spike of that
motivation, right?
It's day in and day out you'reseeing this person struggle.
That's a lot of spikes ofmotivation of why you should go
out and become that person thatyou want that other person to be
.
Charles (27:56):
Sometimes focusing on other people's problems as a way
you can distract yourself fromnot doing the work that you need
to do in your own life and justkind of ask yourself is there a
chance I might be doing some ofthat?
Is there something big that Iwish I was working on, but it's?
It feels too hard, so it'seasier for me to tell them about
(28:16):
what they need to fix.
Absolutely yeah, I, I know I'vebeen in that position before.
So okay, here's let's get intowhat does work.
Uh, the ABC of influence.
Accept their current state,their timeline, their readiness
level, their autonomy.
Be supportive without pressure,available without pushing,
patient with the process andconsistent in your own actions.
(28:39):
Create a safe space for change,opportunities for growth,
positive environment and naturalmotivation.
So there's a couple ABCs inhere.
The first one is that ABC ofinfluence.
The next one is the ABC loop ofhere's how you can actually
influence them in a positive way.
A is apologize, like apologizefor what?
What did I do wrong?
Probably the way you'veapproached this in the past,
(29:02):
pressure you've provided Exactly.
Yes, either yeah, by whatyou've said, what you've done,
the resentment you may havebuilt up from not seeing the
change after so manyconversations about it.
There's probably something toapologize for, yeah To say, even
if it's just hey, I've nothandled this the best way that I
could.
Dan (29:20):
Yeah.
Charles (29:21):
And you know that's.
That's not saying I'm a badperson, that's not saying I did
all these things wrong.
It's just, hey, I.
I regret the fact that in thepast I've banged my head against
the wall trying to solve thisproblem in a way that wasn't
going to work.
Sorry about that Way to startany important conversation with
somebody.
Yeah, hey, dan.
First let me apologize.
Dan (29:41):
Yeah, because you're being vulnerable, you're putting
yourself out there first.
Charles (29:44):
Yeah, so that's, I agree with her on that technique
.
Then second one is back off andobserve their behavior.
Dan (29:54):
So apologize to them, say what you've done wrong and then
mean what you said by backingoff Absolutely.
Right If you don't back off andit's kind of like, well, just
apologize.
Charles (30:00):
Yeah, what kind of apology, sorry.
Dan (30:01):
What do?
Charles (30:02):
you mean the pressure Sorry for all the pressure that
I've been putting you under tochange this and the pressure
will resume tomorrow morning.
No, that's not going to behelpful in accomplishing the
goal whatsoever.
So back off and observe, andshe said sometimes I think she
said minimum of six months ofbacking off and observing,
because it takes, becausethey're not going to believe it
(30:24):
at first, even even if they'renot openly saying I don't
believe you're sorry, I don'tbelieve you're going to back off
.
Yeah, it's like you've got toshow them over an extended
period of time like no, I'mserious about changing the way
that I behave about this issue.
Dan (30:38):
I mean that's the thing, right?
If you've been behaving thisway for years, words don't mean
nearly as much as actions andyou may have pre-programmed
their mind and their assumptionsto feel and to look at you as
somebody who provides pressurein this area and I know actually
it happened with my sister is.
For many years I would pressureher to try to change her, like
(31:00):
the way she handles finances,and you know, recently I've
backed off or in the last fewyears, whatever, I've definitely
backed off, but even thiscasual conversations.
Now she's very reluctant totalk to me about financial stuff
and she's said differentphrases and words that have led
me believe that she still thinksthat I'm gonna be judgmental
(31:22):
about it and I have tried toreassure her.
I have reassured her thatthat's not the case and that
this is different.
But you know what I've not done, I've never done like a formal
apology, so I'm gonna do thatthe week's time I talk to her.
All right, let me talk.
That's a piece that I didn'tlearn about until this book.
Yeah, ironically, she's the onewho told me about this book.
(31:43):
Oh, yeah, yeah, Okay, that'sher way of manipulating,
controlling me, to try to get meto apologize.
Charles (31:54):
Yeah, son of a, there's this great book called.
You might want to pasteparticular tess in chapter 14.
Yeah, megan, yeah, I, Idefinitely.
Uh, I like to think I'vemellowed out with.
I mean, you wouldn't be able totell by listening to this show,
but I've mellowed out with howjudgmental I am with people,
certainly a lot from college,young adult years and uh, yeah,
I'm.
I am sure that even when we talkto our friend Rob my friend
(32:16):
from college, your friend, sinceI provided that link to you and
our friend of the show he'sbeen on a few times I'm sure
that there are probably sometopics that we get into when he
and I are discussing things,when he is probably prepared for
judgmental 22 year old Charlesto rear his head about things
(32:37):
and that could be a bit of abummer.
And uh, yeah, I, you know.
But I find with most people,you know when, when you go from,
we just live life and you havesuccesses and failures and you
get chewed up and spit out alittle bit, most people tend to
get less judgmental with age,and then I mean, I guess some
generations, then you get reallyold, you get less judgmental
with age and then I mean, Iguess some generations.
Then you get really old, youget super judgmental again, so
(32:57):
hopefully I can avoid that one.
But yeah, so observe thebehavior and really that's good
for both you and them, becauseif you're, if you the backing
off part, not only does itincrease the chances that
they'll actually change thething you want them to change,
but the act of backing off isalso good for you because you
don't feel like so much of youridentity is tied up in whether
(33:20):
or not they choose to do thisthing that you've told them is
important to you.
Dan (33:24):
Or your feelings are no longer tied to that as much
either Right it's.
I feel if you're investing timeand energy in trying to control
something and control somethingyou can't control and it's not
giving you the results that youwant, yeah, that's not great for
your emotional state.
Charles (33:44):
The last one is celebrate progress while
modeling change and celebratingthe little victories is
something we learned quite a bitfrom with the tiny habits as
well.
And we learned quite a bit fromwith the tiny habits as well,
and I would just say you mayhave an impulse.
I especially think about thisbecause of my own experience
where, with kids, when you'retrying to, I think some parents
(34:06):
can go a little over the topwith celebrating little
victories to the point where itfeels weird and cringy and
disingenuous.
And I think that could probablybe the case with partners and
friends as well, where you know,just a very kind of for me,
what would work the best is avery low key approach, like, hey
(34:26):
, I noticed that you, uh, you'vebeen doing some work in this
area and just wanted to, justwant to let you know I've
noticed good for you.
The D and E is, uh, what we'vealluded to a little bit already,
which is decide if this is adeal breaker.
Is this behavior trulyunacceptable?
Can you accept them as they are?
What are your truenon-negotiables?
And I've yeah, I've counseledand advised friends in
(34:47):
situations where it's like I'mnot happy with my partner and my
relationship.
I was like, okay.
Well, what's the plan You'regoing to?
You're going to get happy orare you going to stop
complaining, because those arethe only two things that are
really in your power to do?
You know, option three of Iwant to snap my fingers and have
them change all the things Idon't like.
Well, okay, you can want thatif you want to, but if it was
(35:11):
going to happen, it would havealready happened, so that's not
on the table.
So are you going to developwithin yourself a way to say I
am truly and honestly okay withthis the way that it is, or are
you going to remove yourselffrom the situation?
Because, in many cases, thoseare the only two choices that
you have Learn to accept it orlearn to leave it, and so many
(35:33):
of us, though, we're just like.
I'm not going to do either ofthose.
The thing about boundaries is,the successful implementation of
a boundary is unrelated towhether the relationship
continues to exist or not.
Yeah, you set the boundary, youmaintain the boundary, and then
whether or not the relationshipsurvives is just a symptom of
the choice you've made to setand hold the boundary.
And if you you've chosen theright boundary, you vocalized it
(35:57):
and you've held it in the rightway, then, whether that
person's still in your life ornot, it'll work itself out and
you'll know that it's the right,the right choice.
Yeah, so, okay.
So that's that's where we arewith chapters 14 and 15.
I felt like most of what she hadto say in here was pretty good,
the only thing that I I it didseem to she focused a little bit
(36:21):
more on doing things likebacking off because of how it
affects the other person, whereI tend to say do the backing off
because it's good for you andwhether that affects them,
changes them or not, it's theright thing for you to do for
yourself offer the apology, backoff and then go ahead and
(36:44):
celebrate the little victoriesand that's the right thing to do
, whether they ever change ornot.
Oh yeah, and just adopt thispattern of behavior and then
decide.
You know whether this isassuming you're doing those
things and it never changes.
Are you still okay with therelationship?
If the answer is no, then youknow, after at least the six
months that she recommends ofbacking off.
(37:05):
Then you could decide whetheryou should stick around or not.
Dan (37:07):
Good point.
Charles (37:08):
And I mean, you know, depending on how dangerous or
disruptive the behavior is,maybe you don't give it six
months.
I mean, if it's something thatis really harming your mental or
physical health, then it'seither, you know, stop this
right now, if this ever happensagain, I'm out of here and then
and then deliver on that promise, right.
But if it's something that youthink you can live with, give
some time to see the change.
(37:28):
Because again, if hey, I'mgoing to, I'm going to back off.
And again, if hey, I'm going to, I'm going to back off.
Like, okay, I mean, even if areally honest person says that
who's been nagging you for awhile, it's just it's not going
to come natural for you tobelieve that they're actually
going to back off.
Like, I believe you want toback off, I believe that you
(37:50):
think it's a good idea.
Dan (37:51):
But, just like you, want to see the change in me.
Like I need to see the changein you, yeah, in me.
Like I need to see the changein you yeah.
I think I think the key herewould be to verbalize the
apology, not the backing offright, it's, I think.
Charles (38:01):
I mean, I think the commitment to back off should be
part of the apology yeah youknow what I mean.
Just to say, hey, as long asthey'll also let, all the
nagging I've been doing is wrongand I'm not going to do that
anymore that's something likeokay, that's different versus
I'm, you know my concern wasYou're going to sit back and
stare at you to see if youchange, to come across that way.
Dan (38:20):
Or come across that you're not going to support them
anymore.
Certainly Could also mean hey,and that's not the case here.
You're still there to supportthem in whatever way you're
comfortable with, obviously, butin a way that is not going to
be you forcing that support onthem.
It's them saying hey, I'mproviding the space here, Right,
(38:40):
If you need support.
Charles (38:42):
Yeah, I see what you're saying.
You don't want to make it soundlike I'm washing my hands.
Dan (38:45):
Exactly, yeah, right, right , you know, yeah, that's exactly
what I'm trying to say.
Charles (38:47):
Yeah, sorry for not realizing this was a task, so
now I am done with you.
You don't want to come acrossthat way.
I agree, all right, so let'sstop there and next time we will
, uh, come back with chapters 16and 17.
Sounds good, thanks, dan.
Thanks for listening to all theway through this episode of the
mindfully masculine podcast.
If today's conversation onchange and influence resonated
(39:08):
with you, share this episodewith a friend who might need it,
and remember you can alwaysfind our full library of
episodes, audio and video, atmindfullymasculine.
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