The White Lotus: Control, Collapse, and Consequence

⚠️ Season 3 finale spoilers ahead! Plus content note for frank discussions of murder, suicide, and murder-suicide.

In this final episode of Mindfully Masculine’s deep dive into The White Lotus, Season 3, Charles and Dan unpack the unraveling masculinity on full display in the finale. From Timothy’s narcissistic delusions of control 🧠, to Rick’s self-destructive spiral disguised as vengeance 🔫, to Gaitok’s late-game moral compromise 🤐—this one’s about what happens when fragile egos try to play God.

We ask: What does “protecting your family” really mean? When does suffering become selfish? And how do men like Saxon learn—too late—that performance won’t earn them real connection?

Also in the mix:
 – Why Piper’s breakdown is more honest than it looks 😭
 – What happens when someone finally runs toward Rick (instead of away) 🏃‍♀️💔
– And why we’ll never stop talking about that blender 🥤

Find full audio and video episodes at mindfullymasculine.com—and stick around, because next up we’re diving into The Let Them Theory by Mel Robbins. 📘

Support the show

Episode Transcript

Charles (00:00):
I would just say a deeper connection is what he
sees that she has the potentialfor, yeah, and now he wants that
and he's not going to get itwith her because she already
thinks she has it with RickRight.
Welcome to the MindfullyMasculine Podcast.
This is Charles, and you arelistening to our final episode
in our series exploring theWhite Lotus, season 3, through

(00:22):
the lens of masculinity,identity and emotional truth.
Quick note before we start, youmight hear some audio hiccups
or just bad audio, mostly mymicrophone.
Thanks for hanging in there.
The good news is we've got itresolved and the better news is
I had to buy some new gadgets tomake it better, so win-win.

(00:43):
As always, spoiler alert.
Alert.
We're going to talk about thefinale, so if you haven't
finished the season, you mightwant to come back later.
And also we're going to talkabout themes of murder and
suicide and murder suicide.
So if that feels a little tooheavy to listen to right now, or
your kids in the car, relax,come back later and let's get

(01:03):
into it.
About it, I?

Dan (01:06):
loved it.
I thought it was an amazing wayto wrap it up.

Charles (01:09):
Well done it was.
But oh, it made me angry, soangry at so many people oh, do
tell who.

Dan (01:17):
Who made you the angriest.
I should ask, let's start offvoice it's.

Charles (01:21):
It's a tough call between rick and timothy.
I really needed both of themfor what they did in this
episode.
Okay, but yeah, I guess we'll.
We'll go down the list andstart with the start, with the
rattleth family first, yeah, andthen we'll brick and guy talk
at the end.
So yeah, I mean we, we hit on,hit on some of it.
Once timothy started having themurder fantasy, the

(01:43):
murder-suicide fantasies, I waspretty angry at him.
And then, as he Cool question.

Dan (01:49):
Yeah, were you more angry once he had the murder.
Part of that Was the suicidejust okay.
Or did it make you angrier tothink that he's now going to
take his family?

Charles (02:00):
out too.
Oh, no, definitely the murderpart of it.
Yeah, suicide, Right, look, Imean mean, suicide is certainly
a bad thing.
That I, I hope doesn't happento people.
But yeah, listen, if somebodydecides I don't have a way out
and they want to do that, I'mnot.
I'm not one of these peoplethat looks yeah on them or gets
angry at them or how dare they?

(02:21):
That's selfish.
I, I don't buy into any of thatbullshit when it comes to
suicide, people, people commitsuicide because they feel like
they have no other option andthey're compelled to do it, and
so the me being angry about thatdoes not make the situation
that led to it any better or anydifferent.
So, yeah, yeah, no.
If he if he wanted to, I mean,kill himself, I think yes, it

(02:45):
would be.
There would be negativeconsequences on his family that
he probably wouldn't beconsidering if he killed himself
.
But look, when you're, whenyou're in crisis, by definition
your thoughts are and yourfeelings are very self-centered,
because you feel like you're inthe middle of something that's
worse than dying, yeah, and sobeing able, like having the

(03:05):
capability to consider how youractions are going to affect
other people, just doesn'treally factor in when you think
things are that bad.
So anyway, I get that.
But no, what makes me angry ishim defaulting to.
I am going to decide that myfamily would be better off dead
than alive, and so I'm goinggonna make that choice for them.
That's, that's the part thatgets me.

Dan (03:27):
Yeah, furious little little arrogant, little little
narcissistic.
Little little arrogant, littlelittle narcissistic.

Charles (03:34):
Yeah, if you think about it yeah, I mean, is there
a more narcissistic act than, ohmy god, deciding that I know
you can't handle this wholechild going to kill you, so you
don't have to?
I mean that really, yeah,there's, that's very
pathological.
So, and and even when hisdaughter was talking about her
decision to not stay at thedormitory- or the meditation

(03:55):
center.
Yeah, the bottom line is, whenyou really think about it,
there's almost no scenario whereher life in North Carolina is
even going to be as bad asliving in the meditation center.
Oh yeah, like whatever theythink their rock bottom is in
north carolina after dad'sarrested and in minimum security

(04:16):
.
Like what?
What they think is poor andhaving nothing.
Compare you what the worldviews as being poor and having
nothing.
It's not even the same right.
So yeah, for them it's.
It's maybe living in a shittythree-bedroom apartment did a
bad neighborhood in raleigh ordurham or something like that.
Like that's, that's what theywould consider.

(04:37):
Having nothing, yeah, because atthe end of the day, the the
government is not literallygoing to take away every
possession that the family hasever owned.
It's not.
It's not going to be that it'sgoing to be.
They're probably coming out ofthis with a small Fifteen
hundred square foot threebedroom, two bath in a lower end

(04:58):
subdivision in the same townthey live in and Timothy isn't
coming out of prison with alittle tear tattooed on the side
of his arm right Like yeah.

Dan (05:07):
Right yeah so maybe, yeah, and didn't you say the lawyer's
like, oh, like was it like 13months or something, or was it
like four, it was like sixmonths, six months or something
like that, right, yeah, in aminimum security prison, right.

Charles (05:18):
And he was just like I'd rather die.
Maybe they didn't say minimumsecurity, no, but I'm in that,
but I'm probably right yeah soright, and yeah, and the
licenses that he could sell orthat he could have to sell
securities are probably, yeah,there's gonna be some things

(05:40):
that he's not gonna be able todo, but there are probably other
things in the financialservices space.
I mean, is he going to be afelon?
Maybe he is, maybe he's not.
I mean, I think if you'resentenced to a year or more in
prison, you're automatically afelon.

(06:00):
Oh, I didn't know that Ifyou're convicted of a felony, it
means that you have to do.
I don't think that's true, thatyou have to do a year in prison
, no matter what.
I think there are people who getconvicted of felonies.
So, yeah, I mean shit.
The president of the UnitedStates, right?
I mean, he was convicted of 34or 36 felonies in New York and
he's not getting sentenced atall.

(06:21):
So yeah, there's nothing thatsays if you're a felon, you have
to go to jail, or if you go tojail, you have to be a felon.
So yeah, he could probably pleadhis way out of this.
I mean, sticking around inThailand for the full week, even
though he knew this was goingon, probably isn't going to help

(06:42):
his case.
It's probably not going todestroy his case either isn't
going to help his case, so it'sprobably not going to destroy
his case either.
So I don't know what what hislife looks like after this, but
it's certainly not living thelife of a poor person in asia or
africa.
It's.
It's living the life of a poorperson in america, which
obviously, you know, withconsidering other factors, might

(07:02):
not be great, but it's.
It's not living the life of apoor person in Asia or Africa.
It's just not.
So, yeah, I think.

Dan (07:11):
As Piper found what she did Correct.
I mean, did it have organicvegetables?

Charles (07:17):
Yeah, and it's easy to cut your eyes at her, but the
part of it and I did, the reasonI rolled my eyes at her, was
not because she tried thisexperience out and she was like
this is not for me, because I'vetried out a lot of experiences
where I'm like, if this is notfor me, I'm giving up.
But I did not make my.

(07:38):
The eye-rolling part with heris she made her identity kind of
.
I'm better than thiscomfortable lifestyle that I'm
in.
I have my sights set on higherthings.
And then when she tried it, shewas like, oh, I can't do it, so
it's.
It's really how you go into theexperience that gets people to

(07:58):
be like, oh, okay, Blah, blah,blah.
It's not the fact that I'm opento this, it blah, blah, blah.
It's not the fact that, hey,I'm open to this, it's right.
It's like the fact that I'mopen to this makes me better
than you.
Is that 100%?
That was the vibe she put offfor the whole thesis.
Absolutely, and I canunderstand, yeah, thinking that
way Until you actually do itRight.
But then you're confronted withthe reality of what it is
you're signing up for and you'relike, oh no, this is not what

(08:27):
and and I and I think it was Ilike that she had a bit of I
feel guilty now because Ithought that I was up for this
and now that I'm not like thatmade her human.
But yeah, it was.

Dan (08:33):
And the guilt that she felt like for all the things that
they have Right and and right.

Charles (08:38):
So absolutely.
But yeah, the mother's reactionto that was she was hysterical.
Yeah, like so funny, just the I.
I.
When I watched it the firsttime I thought she might say
something like yes, we're lucky,we have more than kings and
queens, and that's all true.
Like somebody who's well off inamerica has a life better, like

(08:58):
it would be unrecognizable tothe king of england a hundred
years ago.
A hundred percent.
And even a poor person inamerica has access to stuff that
I that the king of england 100years ago would be like a
three-bedroom apartment inraleigh absolutely.
Yes, you probably lived in athree-bedroom apartment.
You lived a kind of life.

(09:20):
It's.
The rattle will kill himselfover dan hey, I had the air
conditioning.

Dan (09:24):
I was a happy camper.

Charles (09:25):
That's all I needed, honestly so I talk about that
all the time.

Dan (09:29):
So the non-issue, the crippled mattress, I'm good so
in that vein, the mom wasbasically saying, yeah, we, we
got it so good, it would beoffensive if we didn't enjoy it
and it was.
And then when, when piper'sbreaking down and she's the mom
is is coddling her and huggingher or whatever, and she turns
to Timothy and gives him thethumbs up, like, yeah, she

(09:50):
realized that she can't go andso now she's going to stay home
with us.

Charles (09:54):
Yeah, where Timothy's thinking well, now I guess she's
going to die too.
Yep, exactly.

Dan (09:58):
Because he was just like yeah, he was really trying.
He was like hey, it shows thatwe can live without all this
stuff.
And the mom turns ghost whitelike what are you saying, right?
And then that's when thedaughter breaks down.
And then they show timothy'sface and he's just like it's
like, oh shit, yeah, even mydaughter, who?

Charles (10:18):
yeah, she's got a she.
She's better off dead too.
Yeah, yeah, I where I where Ihoped at the bottom the mother
might go to.
The least we could do is begrateful, or I thought you'd say
something about gratitude, notjust basically we gotta have fun
.
I mean, there's a bigdifference enjoying something
and be grateful for somethingbut that I mean that was perfect

(10:38):
for that character.

Dan (10:39):
Yeah, it was absolutely hysterical.

Charles (10:42):
Yeah, so he.
He changes his mind on themurder-suicide plot at the last
possible moment.
I mean, they're alreadydrinking the poison that he
believes is going to kill all ofthem.

Dan (10:52):
Right, so yeah, to back up, he talks to Pam and Pam's like
oh yeah, remember these fruitshow to poison the seeds.
They call it a suicide treebecause people often grind it up
and grind up the seeds anddrink it to or eat it to kill
themselves.
And he's.
And then so his mind starts,starts going oh, all right
Anymore.

Charles (11:12):
So I need something else.
And yeah, the there was so much, so much foreshadowing the
design.
There is additionally fiveshadowy.
I mean it was really over alittle bit, was over the top.

Dan (11:24):
So it's interesting, yeah, so seriously, yeah.
So he sits down with Lockie andhe comes back and he's just
like, hey, lock, he's like,could you live without any money
?
And he goes, I mean no money,like no house, nothing.
And Lockie's like, yeah, Ithink I could, and then it was
literally the thing.

Charles (11:38):
And then that's what I hated.

Dan (11:51):
Oh you the right answer.
So you get to live.
That was part of what made meangry.
Yeah, right, and he was justlike, okay, and so you're gonna
live.
And when he talks about goingback after dinner to make, to
make pina coladas back in theback in the bungalow with the
family lock, he asked him likeoh, I've never had a pina colada
.
And he's like, well, you're notgonna have one now, you're
having a coke you're not 21,you're not 21, and it was just
like his way of saving them,right?

Charles (12:06):
yeah, which was also, I mean, perfect, perfectly ironic
.
Yes, and there was somecontroversy online the idea of
who would find a blender withremnants of a protein shake and
then just add more and make anew protein shake.
I, I agree, right, that wasgross oh, maybe I'd maybe listen
.

Dan (12:24):
Maybe an 18 year old kid because I've done stupid shit at
18 too Like not thinking aboutlike, and maybe here's the other
thing too is so here's theother thing, yeah, maybe.
So here's the other thing.
Dad was denying Lockie reallywanted to have that pina colada.
He never had he didn't becausethere was like alcohol in it or
whatever.
So maybe he was thinking oh,there's a little bit of that

(12:45):
pina colada left in there.
I'll get a little taste of itin my protein shake.

Charles (12:50):
The coconut milk has turned right.
I mean, he was there for thedramatic slapping of the glass
away.
Oh, good point.
Not only is it pina coladamixed from last night, but it's
crappy coconut.
Coconut milk is rancid orsomething like that's a good
point, yeah, yeah and so I meanlisten, when I was 18 I would
never have found the remnants ofan of a night old.

(13:14):
Oh yeah, I mean friday.

Dan (13:16):
I thought, well, maybe he thought satsum made a protein
shake that morning and justdidn't wash the blender oh,
that's like even that's stillgross well, they did have that
scene where saxon basically islike oh lucky yeah, if you make
a little drink here but I make,make your own, you gotta.
Nobody's gonna make you a mannobody's gonna make you a man
and and the stuff's on thecounter right but that was the

(13:37):
day before.
Oh, that was the day before thenight.
Oh, you're right.
Okay, I'm sorry, okay.

Charles (13:43):
so yeah, maybe maybe he didn't think, oh, oh, that's
the leftover pina coladas.
Maybe he bought sacks and madea protein shake and he needed to
clean the blender.
Still gross?
I still wouldn't do it.
If I find a blender withanything in it, I'm washing it
out before I make my thing.
Even when I was 18, I would notdrink out of a dirty glen.
So here's the thing.
We should definitely spend 40or 50 minutes on this.

(14:05):
We should no.

Dan (14:08):
I probably would have at 18 .
If I was in my family, if Iknew it was only my family that
was there, that was like makingfood and stuff like that.
Listen, I probably still wouldhave washed it out.
But to me it's a little bitmore of a viable scenario for
him to have not washed it out Ifhe knew it was only his family
and he he kind of got intimatewith with other fluids from from

(14:31):
his brother.
So why, why, why, why stop?
This is?
This is mild compared to theusual fluid that he's used to.

Charles (14:40):
Well, I'll let you back on that Cause he's not even
thinking.
He's drinking after his brother.
He's thinking his brother.

Dan (14:43):
Right, right right.

Charles (14:44):
Stuffed in there and then poured it into the glass
and then just left some of theyeah Gross I would not find the
remnants of a protein shake andadd to it.
But anyway I didn't really have.
I did feel like letting himlive.
It made sense Because he washaving a very small, weakened

(15:07):
dose of whatever the poisonplant was and and generally
speaking, there's not a ton ofnaturally occurring plants that
are poisonous that will actuallykill you.
For the most part it's you getreally sick and then you still
survive unless you reallyconcentrate up the stuff.
So it made sense that he wouldget sick and then be okay.

(15:28):
But nothing against Lachlan.
But part of me almost wantedthe dad to have to live with
killing his son over when hedidn't want to.
Part of me thought that wouldserve him right for him to yeah,
one person he wanted to save.
He is the one that he ended upkilling well.
So, in all fairness, I did feellike the dad did take away a

(15:52):
lesson that maybe money isn'teverything yeah, it still felt a
little under to me, like likehe didn't like for even thinking
about and starting to implementthe process of murdering his
family, that he didn't sufferenough in my opinion, like I
wanted to see down.
And again, I'm nothing againstlock on, I'm okay with him

(16:15):
surviving, I'm glad he surviveda special character.
But it would have beensomething to me the dad, hey, a
little bit for, yeah, what hewas thinking, right, losing all
the stuff's not enough.
I wanted, I wanted to suffer orthink about killing the stanley
, and so I didn't.
I didn't quite get that andthat's one of the things that
looked.
I like teaching lessons too.
I know you do.

Dan (16:36):
I know you do that's a bit rough, but yeah, I get it.

Charles (16:40):
I get it all right, let's talk about the older son.
We've kind of covered theyounger one pretty much in
detail.
The older one yeah, basicallyhe found out that his Did he go
to Duke?
Yeah, couldn't tell, he hadn'tmentioned it.
I think that he got a littlebit of a lesson himself in.

(17:01):
Okay, what's the long-termresult of playing this character
?
Like playing the character he'splaying and I'm gonna talk
about the actor I'm talkingabout saxo, playing this alpha
male finance bro.
It will probably work for himto get all the things he kind of

(17:22):
wants, but not not the thingshe really wants or the things he
really needs from other people.
So he'll get some of thetrappings of being a finance bro
, but in this episode, a girllike Chelsea, or Chelsea
specifically.

Dan (17:38):
He kind of realized, oh, this act is not going to do
anything to get someone who isgood enough to not want me yeah,
it's very symbolic when chelseahe's talking to chelsea,
sitting there as he's, he triesto press her by reading that
meditation book or the book I'mwasn't a meditation, but it was
one of the books that was sheand and she's like oh you gotta

(18:00):
read a lot more.
She's like, oh, you got to reada lot more.
She's amazing.
And then she talks about howthey might be.
One of the author'sphilosophies is that we're all
in different groups spiritualgroups and we might be in the
same group and not even realizeit.
And just as he starts to really, I think, feel an attraction
for her and connect to her, shesees Rick on the beach who

(18:23):
finally returns from partyingwith frank and almost killing it
, killing the yeah the, you knowthe guy, the guy, and she runs
and takes off and then you couldjust see it in saxon's face.
I kind of like, oh, I'm like Ididn't get what I wanted.

Charles (18:37):
Yeah, that's that.
Image of him, of him, wentfairly viral.
Yeah, because, yeah, he, helooked crushed when she got up
and ran direct and and, like yousaid, that's, that's something
maybe he wants now right thatlike unconditional, but we we've
already established that this,or think of that, dan or the
appearance of that unconditionalI would just say a a deeper

(18:59):
connection is is what?
what he sees that she has thepotential for, yeah, and now he
wants that and he's not going toget it with her because she
already thinks she has it withRick.
Right, it did remind me.
It is very nice when a girlruns up to hug you.

Dan (19:16):
It was an amazing scene.
Yes, it's such a good feelingTo me, it's like.
To me it feels.
Yes, I agree there's no suchthing as unconditional love, but
her behavior throughout theseries I feel like was very
close to oh my God, I can'tbelieve you're putting up with
this crap from this asshole Rickand you're still loving him
more and more and more.

(19:36):
To me, that's about as close asyou can get to unconditional
love.

Charles (19:40):
Yeah, but you know you're talking about it that way
.
It makes it like unconditionallove is the perfect thing that
we should all shoot for.
She got close to it.
No, no, no.
Unconditional love I'm notsaying it's perfect, I think
because it exists is not thegood.
No, no, no For love that seemslike unconditional love is not
what we want.
What we want is to understandexactly what we're bringing and
what we're expecting, absolutely.

(20:03):
And so the put up was so muchprobably out of her lack of
health, not because of herprofound mental health, like a
healthy person would not be inthat relationship with Rick
right off with his bullshit.

Dan (20:16):
And I'm not saying that's the idea.
What I'm saying is it's a quickmoment of a dopamine fix of joy
for Rick when, when he seessomebody coming up to him, oh
yeah, running across the beachand going, oh my god, oh my god,
oh my god she wrote herselfinto his arm.
I'm not seeing this in theideal right, but it's.
We all enjoy our littledopamine fixes of everything.

(20:36):
Why is it having to run up foryou and he's?

Charles (20:39):
talking about one of those a hundred percent.
Yeah, it feels great, yeah, butyeah, so, yeah, saxon, I mean,
he may be.
He may be more able to rollwith the situation that his dad
has brought on the family,knowing he's had this experience
with chelsea.
I don't know, yeah, could be.
We'll probably never know,we'll never.
I don't think mike white'sgonna revisit any of the rat

(21:00):
lips.
He might, but I don't thinkit's gonna happen.
Yeah, those obvious was adifferent season.

Dan (21:04):
I'm gonna click with people I am so hopeful for the idea of
what the mom was.
Such a character for me, sofunny with like her her, her out
of the out of her mind, likearrogance and living in a
different world, which is sofunny to me and some of the
things that she said.
I would love to see her in that, with that mindset, in a a

(21:28):
three-bedroom apartment inraleigh or or working at the
next white lotus hotel, right asas like a front desk person or
the help or whatever, a maid orsomething.
Oh my god, that would behysterical.

Charles (21:39):
I would be like that's too too much.
Yeah, the maid would be alittle too much.
Any of that would be a littlekitschy, I think.
Yeah, maybe I don't.
I don't think.
I rather would have theunanswered questions like I
don't want to.
I don't want to fight withpretty soprano when they painted
to black.

Dan (21:53):
Yeah, I don't know I'd rather make up in my own.
I disagree with the sopranothing.
I hated that ending, did reallyhate it.

Charles (22:02):
So many like yeah, I feel like I loved it, I felt
like it was a cop-out, like youjust did not, or the writers did
not want to put some juice intothis and at least do a little
bit of of additional tie-ups see, I I appreciate the ambiguous
endings, like I think you canmake it ambiguous, but just did

(22:22):
you like the ending to where itpulls away on the top setting
and it doesn't show the top allover, but it shows a wobble a
little bit.
So we don't know if he's reallyin a dream or if he's in the
real world.
Or did you not even know thatwas what was going on?

Dan (22:35):
I didn't even know that was going on.
So I'll be honest with you Idon't remember Inception.

Charles (22:42):
It's worth a rewatch.
I watched it not too long agoand it's still one of the best
movies ever.

Dan (22:46):
All right, I'll add that to my list, because I don't
remember that scene.

Charles (22:51):
Yeah, the very last scene of the movie is before he
walks out to meet his kids.
He spins the top, oh okay, andyou kind of see him meeting the
kids, but then it focuses on thetop and the top is still
spinning.
There you're meeting the kids,but then it focuses on the top
and the top is still spinning.

Dan (23:06):
There's a little bit of a wobble, but it doesn't fall over
.

Charles (23:08):
Is he in the real world yet, or is he still a dream?
That's okay.

Dan (23:13):
The Soprano thing, I think was just a cop.

Charles (23:15):
I think that was just interesting.
See, I thought, did you likethe way Lost ended?
See, I thought they answeredtoo many questions on Lost.
I thought they answered toomany questions I lost.
I thought they should have leftmore stuff ambiguous.
I thought they tied upeverything a little too neatly
in my opinion.
I'd rather go that directionthen yeah, yeah, not me, I like
it the other way, yeah, okay.
So yeah, let's talk about Rick.
So Rick, I guess, stays up allnight with his friend in that

(23:37):
crazy party just kind ofwatching him, and then decides
okay, I gotta go.
And the typical, typical, frankwas typical drunk guy move of
you can't leave.
If you leave then my party'sover, so you gotta stay here.
It's like I, I don't knowanybody likes I hate.
I hate people like that.
I yeah, that is.
That's the worst.

Dan (23:59):
I think we my group of friends back in the day we
definitely helped promote thewhat they call the Irish exit.
Yes, where we just leave, wedon't say anything to anybody.

Charles (24:08):
So our friend Richard's a master of.
He's really good at the Irishexit.
I mean Just walk out.

Dan (24:12):
It's so many.
So many people would do itBecause we give so much shit to
anybody.

Charles (24:17):
He introduced me to the term Irish exit.
I don't think I heard it untilRichard.
Yeah, heard it until richard.
Yeah, I don't even know thehistory.
I know the.

Dan (24:32):
I know the term.
Yeah, how is that why?

Charles (24:33):
is it an irish exit?
I don't know, but it's great, Iand I.
I like engaging it myself.
Yes, yeah, because I, I don't,I don't.
Oh, come on, I don't want toleave, I leave.
So, anyway, yeah, he, he leaves,he goes back to to the resort.
He meets his girlfriend on thebeach, tells her that he got the
monkey off his back, which wasagain the level of foreshadowing
there.
Whenever people with brokenbrains come up with solutions,

(24:57):
you've always got to rememberthe same brain that got you into
trouble is the brain that isgiving you the idea for how to
get out.
That's all I could think aboutwith rick was he's got all these
plans for how he's going tosolve his own problem, but the
problem only exists in his head,and using that head to come up
with the way to get out of theproblem, to solve the problem.
So, finding this guy andengaging in the whole caper,

(25:22):
pretending to be somebody elseand lying to the wife and
arranging the meeting and thenknocking the guy out of his
chair and acting like he's goingto and if you remember that
scene when he was talking to theguy, he talked at him.

Dan (25:34):
He didn't ask any questions , he didn't really get any, he
dug a little bit about life.

Charles (25:38):
He thought the guy murdered his father, so he's not
Right, but he.

Dan (25:42):
True, murdered his father, so he's not right but he would
true.
But based on, like I mean, hismom said something to him.
I feel like I mean, look, if,if you're willing to, I guess,
get into that state of mind, togo all the way there, whatever
you're right, you're not, you'renot open to any new information
and you're not looking for newinformation.
So it makes, I mean, it linesup.

(26:05):
I mean, I think I think theydid an amazing job of keeping
the characters very much alignedwith their, or consistent
throughout the story.

Charles (26:14):
There's one character they did not do that with and,
uh, we'll get to that, but apart of it is yeah, so so r in
the last episode, rick does hisconfrontation in a suboptimal
way, certainly, and then whenthe guy shows up at the hotel,
confronts Rick.
He also didn't have to be thatmuch of a prick.
He's also cruising for abruising because he didn't need

(26:37):
to confront Rick that way.
It could have been like well,remember, that's true, they're
our father.
We find out in the end they'refather and son, right, and this
guy could still we don't know,he could still be a murderer.
He could have the guy Rickthought was his dad.
Absolutely, it seems like thisguy could have.

Dan (26:54):
But ironically, if you hear him, he talks shit about
himself.
He's just like your father wasno saint.
He's just like he was.
You didn't miss out on much,kid.
I didn't think about, yes,father, but he no.
So no, he was basically talkingabout himself, right, because
he's the father and he's justlike.
He's like yeah, I, I mean I, Iknew your mother, yeah, call it

(27:18):
a whore.
And so I I knew she was a slut,but I didn't know she was a
liar.
And then Rick's like and he'sjust like trust me, kid, your
father was no saint.
And he's like and you didn'tmiss out on much.

Charles (27:34):
Yeah, that didn't occur to me.
Yeah, oh, yeah, yeah, which ishuge he could have.
Yeah, if he just he could havegotten that information to the
guy a different way.
But he was angry because he,rick, had alpha dogged him and
he felt bad about that.

Dan (27:48):
Yeah, so I mean, maybe it's a little bit of, I mean, or a
lot of a lot of Rick in this oldor the or the older guys in
Rick.
Oh yeah, right, so it, I mean,like I said, perfect, I think,
really well done, really thoughtout, really thought out, well
thought out in terms of thecharacter development there yeah
, but it does.

Charles (28:06):
I mean, based on the choices that they each made,
they both kind of got what wascoming to them.
I mean, I don't think it wasokay for rick to kill the guy
and I don't think it was.
The circumstances under whichrick died were not okay either,
which we'll talk about in asecond.
Yeah, but it's like, man, youdo, you reap what you sow.
I mean you, you live a life ofviolence and alpha dogging and

(28:29):
acting that way, and pretty soonyou're going to act that way
with somebody who's like I'm nothere for this bullshit and I'm
gonna snap.
And it just keeps escalating.
Yeah, exactly at that pointuntil, yeah, I, I think rick was
mainly focused on the insult tohis mother.
That was the thing that got himso angry that he goes off and,
to his credit, seeks a sessionwith the meditation lady, which

(28:52):
I think she could have done alittle bit better job of reading
the room.
Oh for sure, yeah, hey, I gotto.
Yeah, we're going to be late.
I got to gotta.

Dan (29:00):
I gotta address this good point and she was basically
saying, right before rick left,was basically begging him for
another session and sayingyou've really moved me right and
so now, all of a sudden, oh,he's not so important, even
though he's like coming to herin a moment of distress.
Well, I gotta stick to theschedule where he's on there

(29:21):
walking yeah, I feel like, okay,look this.

Charles (29:25):
Yeah, this guy's coming to you begging you for a
session to get into some stuff,because he's very bothered and
it's like no, this other guestalready has me on the.
It's like, at that point, fuckyour job, you're, you're the one
person that this guy and so youseem that you feel like you
have a connection to, you're theone person that can probably

(29:45):
help him.
And you're gonna be like Idon't wanna, don't want to
inconvenience this otheremployee's son who's getting a
free session probably.
Yeah, come on.

Dan (29:54):
That's a little all right, it's good point.

Charles (29:57):
So she basically caused all this, all her fault all her
fault, I think, but I think she, she, yeah, she had a vibe for
what was going on, and zion wasthere for a recreational
meditation session, not not anykind of a crisis.
So, yeah, I, and it was thefirst session she had with him

(30:17):
too, correct, so?
And she could have said hey, asthe son of about one of my
co-workers, this guy's having anissue right now.
Can we, can we delay this alittle bit?
Apparently she had the nexthour after zion completely free,
because that's when she wastelling rick to come back right
though.
Hey, would it be too muchtrouble if you wouldn't mind?

(30:37):
Can we just swap?
Yeah, if that happened thenyeah, I'm not saying it's her
fault, but yeah, no, no shootoutoccurs if that happens.
So that was kind of.

Dan (30:46):
Or it could be fitting.
For look, rick, you've now yourbehavior and your actions have
led you to also experience somea little bit less luck than an
average bear because of yourbehavior.
I mean, I really believe thehow you, how you act on to on a

(31:08):
regular basis.
It's going to either attract orrepel things to you.
Yeah, I can see karma is anactual thing, but I'm going to
say, yeah, it's.
Uh.
I'm going to say you're goingto attract better things to you,
depending depending on how yourattitude is, or worse things to
you, depending on what yourattitude is, or worse things to
you, depending on what yourattitude is.

Charles (31:26):
I do believe in a law of attraction yeah, like when
things happen and you make badthings happen and hopefully when
it comes to future events.

Dan (31:34):
So you say so when you make something happen, you think
there's no ripple effect.
There's no other things thatthat impacts in the world.
When you make something elsehappen, good or bad, there's no,
there's no, there's no rippleeffect.
There's no boomerang that evercomes back that you could
possibly interact with.
I mean based on like abutterfly effect.

(31:54):
Right, Probably Do you believein a butterfly effect?

Charles (31:58):
I believe that free will is a myth and that
everything that is going tohappen, everything that wasn't
going to happen from the momentof the big bang, is just going
to happen, okay, and that, uh,we, we participate in it, but we
don't write the story.
The story has already beenwritten, so it doesn't matter
what our actions are, it'sthat's predetermined.

(32:19):
I mean, our actions do matterin that, given the ability to
make choices, what choices we'regoing to make has already been
decided, but we still make thechoices.
So then, really, it doesn'tmatter.
I mean, I don't think itchanges the end result of when
entropy claims the last star andthe lights of the universe go

(32:42):
out.
Whether we get our meditationsession at one o'clock pm or two
o'clock pm is not going to nicka deer okay, I mean, I can, I
mean maybe yeah so, okay, yes, I, I do think that.
But you know what?
What we, the choices we make,will be determined in part by
what we're exposed to, and so,yeah, I, you know, we could talk

(33:07):
a long time, on course, yeah,some of the I think that good
people don't get good thingsbecause they deserve them,
because the universe decidesthey deserve them, and bad
people don't get bad thingsbecause the universe decides
they deserve bad things.
Okay, I don't see any kind ofmath that works out that way.
I mean, I think plenty of badpeople can do bad things and end

(33:27):
up with the very nicest things,and plenty of good people can
do good things and end up withthe worst things, and I think
that that happens randomlyenough, that, yeah, a force like
god's will or karma or whatever, is not something that should
ever be planned on or banked on,like when things are going.
Yeah, you have the attitude of,well, if I just do the right

(33:50):
thing long enough, then goodthings will come my way.
I don't think there's reallyany evidence.
So I think you should do theright thing, because it aligns
with your values and you believethere's, so there's a reason.
I completely do that, but, like, I do the right thing long
enough, then my time will comeand I'll get the good things I
deserve.
No, you won't, or you might,but it's not.

Dan (34:11):
It's not related.

Charles (34:12):
You're saying that's completely random.
I think for the most part it'srandom.

Dan (34:16):
Okay.

Charles (34:17):
Okay, I mean, but look, there are decisions you can.
There are decisions you makethat will affect you your life,
you can.
There are decisions you makethat will affect you your life,
and if you're constantly hangingout in neighborhoods and in
places where lots of crimeoccurs, then there's a higher
chance that you will be a victimof crime, and so in that way,
yes, what you are putting outthere does have an effect on you

(34:38):
.
Right, my and my.

Dan (34:39):
That's that's kind of where those concrete terms are, where
it ends for me yeah, I mean, Idon't think you can bank on any
of that, right Like I don'tbelieve that it's a given.
It's like a mutable law thatyou do good things, you do bad
things.
The reciprocal is going tohappen.
But I think the odds are morelikely that if you're putting

(35:00):
good things out there, goodthings will come back to you.
Put bad things out there, badthings will come back to you.
Put bad things out there, badthings will come back to you.
And so why not play the odds?

Charles (35:07):
That's the way I look at it.
I mean, I think if you put goodthings out there, it's because
you're a person who focuses ongood things, and focusing on
good things will influence yourthoughts and your actions so
that you make those good thingshappen.
Actions, so that you make thosegood things happen.

(35:27):
Like if you, if you focus on Ineed to save up money for this
financial goal, then you willconsciously or unconsciously
look for opportunities to savemoney toward that goal and it
might end up happening for youfaster than you initially
thought that it would happen.
Ultimately, that's stillbecause of the actions and the
thoughts that you're having.
Yeah, not because somebody ispushing things in those
directions for you.

(35:48):
Yeah, yeah.
So I mean, we may be maybe adistinction without a difference
.

Dan (35:53):
Yeah, I think, I think we're kind of saying almost the
same thing, but yeah.

Charles (35:56):
All right.
So, anyway, rick Owl was comingto him.
I mean, he, he crafted this,this terrible outcome for
himself and for Chelsea throughhis action, his inaction I mean
predominantly the inaction,because he was a guy who looked
our age or older, so he had alot of time to deal with this
shit.
And I've been a guy who hassuffered and does suffer

(36:20):
consequences for, okay, somenegative stuff happened to me
and that wasn't my fault, butthe daily choice of not doing
anything to address how itaffected me or how I feel about
it that's causing real worldconsequences, that ripple, and
Rick could have decided not tospend his 50 years he looked

(36:42):
like he was about 50, right,yeah, maybe a little older.
Yeah, he could have decided tonot spend all that time being
angry and dwelling on the badstuff that happened to him and
and trying to work his waythrough that with, with therapy,
with support groups, withwhatever resources he, a man of
his financial means, could havefound.
But he chose not to do that.

(37:03):
Yeah, he chose to kind ofwallow and enjoy time with his
young, hot British girlfriend,when he even had the capability
to enjoy that time.
Yeah, I didn't see much of that,not at all right.
So, yeah, it looked like hisprimary vocation, 24-7, was
being miserable about hischildhood and then, when she

(37:25):
booked meditation sessions forhim, he begrudgingly went and
participated at a very low level.
So, yeah, ultimately it was hislack of action that led to this
, which was not making thechoice of hey.
Being a miserable prick for 50years isn't working for me.
I need to try something else.
But he never did that.

(37:46):
And then he came out.
His broken brain came up withthis caper of how he could make
all his problems go away byyelling at or killing this bad
man that did bad things to him50 years ago.
And, shocker, it didn't workout.
So he dies and his girlfrienddies.
He died, his girlfriend diedbecause he got in a firefight

(38:09):
with her standing a few feetbehind him, which again not a
good way to provide for thepeople you care about getting
into gunfights while they'restanding behind you yeah, if
you're in gunfights, I mean, doit, do it on your own time yeah,
and try to try to do it.

Dan (38:20):
Don't make it data, exactly , exactly he did try to tell, he
did say, get out of here.
But I mean, then he turns rightaround and then, and so she
she's not gonna.
She wants to see what the hellshe cares about him.
She wants to see what she'sgonna do.

Charles (38:35):
So he cared more about put a few rounds into this guy
than he did about protecting thewoman he supposedly loved for
sure.
And so, yeah, that is not theversion of any kind of
masculinity that I like to see.
I've got to settle the score atall costs.
Meanwhile, that involves agunfight while my girlfriend's
standing over there.

(38:56):
That's what a child playingcowboys and Indians would do,
not what a man who cares abouthis obligations would do, yeah.
And so then, yeah, he kills him, he kills the bodyguards, he
kills just about everybody, andincluding his girlfriend,
certainly chocolate death, up tohis credit as well.

(39:18):
And then he gets shot in theback by guy talk, which I also
hated.
That development, for guy talkscharacter, yeah, I mean, that
whole episode was him being notparticularly admirable, in my
opinion.
He figures out who'sresponsible for the robbery,
because he saw the two guys atthe mma fight the night before,

(39:39):
or pie boxing, whatever it was,and and then he goes to his
co-worker, who knows the guys,and brings it up in not a slick
way at all.
So it was very, it wascompletely transparent what was
going on to the co-worker andthe co-worker is like if you
turn them in, you're killing me.
You're killing them, you'rekilling all of us and it's like

(40:01):
take, so take, fuckingaccountability.
You.
You killed yourselves the dayyou decided to show up in that
shock with a gun and, to be fair, when you bonked me on the head
, that's when you decided tokill yourself.
So then Guy Cox decides I'mgoing to quit my job instead of
turning them in.
I'll tell you, given thecircumstance number one, I

(40:23):
wouldn't have given the one guyany clues that I knew who his
friends were.
I would have gone straight tomy boss or the police and been
like hey, good news, I got thisrobbery solved, here's the guys
that did it.
And that would have been theend of the story and I would
have had no.
There's no talking me out ofturning those guys in.
Absolutely not.
Turning those guys in,absolutely not.
So I didn't like that.
Gaita clumsily tried to playdetective.

(40:43):
I don't like that.
He initiated the call to hismanager and then went back on it
because he thought he was beinga nice guy.
So question for you.
Yeah.

Dan (40:55):
After his co-worker came to him and said listen, we're
gonna die, you're gonnabasically kill us if you turn us
in.
Do you still turn them inabsolutely without?
Yes, a hundred percent.
So you're okay killing people,as long as it's not with a gun I
did?

Charles (41:11):
yeah, this is no trolley problem where, it's not
this if you do something, yeah,that either directly leads to a
death sentence or in aroundabout way, which that could
have been bullshit anyway.
The story of if you tell Curtisand you kill us.
Really do I, or is thatsomething that somebody will

(41:32):
have trouble with?
Well, I mean, so it's not hisresponsibility.
The aggrieved, I agree, andsuffering the consequences of
their actions and their choicesis not Guy Cox's fault.

Dan (41:41):
But remember, you're sending them back to Russia and
like they're having the war withUkraine and who knows what kind
of policies are going on overthere in Russia for people who
are leaving the country now,right?
So I mean, I would think it'smore likely that they would be
somehow killed, either from thegovernment or from from other
people, because they getextradited, I guess yeah, they

(42:02):
probably drifted into the warand then prison or like killed
either way, yeah, it's like youknow what.
Then too bad yeah, listen, I, ifthey're not innocent, I get it.
Dude, trust me, I, I get, I'mjust, I'm just.

Charles (42:15):
There's just interesting thoughts here,
because he shot the right, solike faces, and then they bonk
him on the head to get away.
It's like, no, you, you don't,you're, you're not among the
people that I extend charity to.
At that point, you, you gotta,you gotta deal with your actions
, and it's not my job to saveyou from them.
It's my job to do my job as asecurity guard, which is to

(42:37):
bring the information of therobbery that happened at my job
to the people that need to knowit.

Dan (42:41):
Okay.
So then your job as a securityguard is not to protect the
owners of the hotel.
It certainly is Okay.

Charles (42:48):
So now that Am I not protecting anyone when he shot
Rick in the unarmed?
Rick in the back walking awaywith his dead girlfriend?
Who's being protected in thatscenario?

Dan (42:55):
Okay, Fair, nobody Fair.

Charles (42:57):
Murder Right.

Dan (43:02):
Okay, murderer, right.
Okay, even though it was directcommand from the person who
owned, like the woman won thehotel, said kill him.
I said kill him.
I tell you to kill somebody,dan, just because you want to
work for you.
So I mean, if you were to be ahot, a hefty, hefty minimum wage
salary, I'm, I'm, I'm all aboutit.
No, guy.

Charles (43:15):
Guy guy talked about the character to see, no, to
turn his eyes in for a crime.
They get it is, but he doesn'thave character to say I'm not
gonna shoot him in in the backokay.

Dan (43:23):
So what if he didn't shoot the kill and just like shot him
in the leg?
Would you be okay with that?

Charles (43:28):
no, that's still.
That's still not good, youdon't.
You don't?
You don't use a gun againstsomebody.
Yes, you want to kill them.
Okay, it's not.

Dan (43:34):
Yeah, you'll use a gun to disable somebody because it's
funny because I was talking tomy dad and they basically were
saying my dad's like yeah, Ididn't Same thing you did.
I hated guy talk or how hechanged characters, whatever and
he shouldn't have killed himand he was okay with him, just
shooting him in like in the legto kind of wound him or whatever
, but not actually kill him.
So I was curious if that's Ifanything.

Charles (43:56):
you're wet, you run up to Rick and pop him and pock him
on the head with the butt ofyour gun and then restrain him.

Dan (44:01):
That's a good point.
Yeah, he was.
I mean he was.

Charles (44:03):
He was carrying your point.
You shoot a gun as if you wantto kill him, right, because, oh,
I'll just shoot him in the leg,boom, hit his summer artery, he
dies out.
That's a good point.
Or you miss his leg becauseit's hard to hit.
It's hard to shoot somebody.
You ain't for the tourists.
Sorry, sure he did.
Yeah, I, I did not like thatguy, todd again, he was

(44:28):
unwilling to turn in people whoalready committed a crime
because of what might happen tothem as a consequence.
But he's willing to now here'sthe thing, though, is guy todd
didn't know that he was an artbecause he showed up late, but
he was, he's, he's walking awaycarrying somebody yeah, I guess
that's the point yeah, whatlooks like a dead or unconscious
person with arms, okay, withhis back to him.

(44:49):
Yeah, and he yelled stop.
And the guy didn't stop.
So, yeah, that's when you, yougotta listen, you approach
cautiously, you approachcautiously and then, yeah, train
him, hit him in the head, dosomething.
But yeah, yeah, because yourboss tells you to shoot somebody
.
That doesn't give you licenseto shoot somebody in the back.

Dan (45:09):
Well, I don't know what are the laws in Thailand.

Charles (45:11):
That's a good question.
I don't know, but it doesn'tmatter, it just gives something
that is legal, obviously.
Yeah, I get it.

Dan (45:18):
I 100%.

Charles (45:19):
I did not like it.

Dan (45:20):
There are other ways to go about that situation.

Charles (45:22):
And I mean White, did do a pretty good job of setting
him up with, thanks to Mook'sbehavior.
Yeah, great, that annoyed me somuch.
That was at the beginning,right when he's like he has her
out for dinner that night, she'slike I got to stay home with my
mom.
Well, what about tomorrow?
Tomorrow night?

Dan (45:37):
I'll think about it right, and that was after.
That was after he said thathe's thinking about quitting his
job, correct?

Charles (45:42):
yes, I've been in.
I've been in that scenario of,basically, a girl says I'm not
sure if I want to go out withyou or not, and the correct
answer is okay.
Well, I don't want to putsomething else on your plate, so
I withdraw the offer.
If you want to go out with me,you can contact me and let me
know, but I'm not.

(46:02):
You have somebody out they giveyou and I'll think about it.
My move is immediately withdrawthe invitation, like I don't
want to go out with somebody whohas to think about it.
I want to go out with somebodywho's excited to go out with me.
So if I get, oh, I'll thinkabout it.
Okay, you do that.

Dan (46:18):
But the dynamic was for mine the whole dynamic, the
whole show was was him.

Charles (46:23):
She had the power and she.
He was basically like beggingfor breadcrumbs correct, and and
if she's into him now that he'sa murderer, then fine, good
luck.
Let them have each other.
That's what it takes to.
Yeah, I mean compromise.
The most important values youhave is what gets you the girl
you want.
Then you deserve each other.

Dan (46:44):
Yeah, it looks cool looking cool driving the owner away,
and mook is in the background,all proud and and clearly
excited by him yeah, I didn't, Ididn't feel, I didn't think
that that felt real and look,look.

Charles (47:01):
And the other thing is I mean just based on stuff we've
talked about for all the showif, if you get the girl by
pretending to be a badass thatyou're not, then whenever a
bigger badass comes along, she'sgoing to be more interested in
him than you.
I mean right, I mean that'sbased on the way she talked
about violence and ambition forthe whole series.

Dan (47:22):
Yeah, if it's some more violent, more ambitious guy
comes along, guy talks a lot atleast that's the way it looks to
me and and he already picked upon that the very beginning of
the season, when she was talkingto those two body guards, and
she's just like, oh, whatthey're nice.

Charles (47:35):
And he's like they're a little not so nice or arrogant,
and she just but you're rightthat was one of the first moves
of him that I didn't care, or isthat I'll try to bring this guy
down, to bring myself up likethat's not what?
That's not what, somebody who'scompetent which they both
claimed he was competent in thisepisode I don't think he was.

(47:56):
I am confident like that's nota conversation that confident
people have right, yeah, well.

Dan (48:00):
He said well, no, but he said I'm confident when I feel
good about myself and, and, andthat's when he was.

Charles (48:05):
He was saying which I give him credit for well, that's
a true statement.
That is not I.

Dan (48:10):
I would never, even if I felt I would not share that with
the girl who's a true, whoseattention I was seeking so I
give him credit for having theballs to say that, but to say
hey, I mean, I give him creditfor basically saying this job
isn't for me, even though I'veput my time and my years into it
, knowing that she is attractedto the exact opposite of what

(48:33):
he's now telling her.
He had the balls to tell herthat and then she's like well, I
thought you were confident andhe goes.
Well, I am confident when Ifeel good about myself, so I
gave him tons of credit there.
However, that all got unwoundwhen he gave in to basically
shooting, shooting rick and andfalling into the trap of being

(48:54):
something that he really doesn'twant to be, because he's like
the buddha, wouldn't approve ofof any type of violence, whether
it's in self-defense or not,and she's like the Buddha, so
she's totally on a differentpage he calls to engage in
fore-dating strategy.

Charles (49:10):
That's the way he was doing.
Well, I don't think he was.
Yeah, I don't.
A little declaration of I'mconfident when I feel good about
myself.

Dan (49:17):
Yeah, I mean that was.
I don't think that was hisstrategy.

Charles (49:20):
Allow me to have a positive self-image, then I'm
confident.
That's not what a competent 100percent.

Dan (49:25):
But I don't even wish he was right, but that wasn't his
dating strategy at the time.
I think he was actually beingtrue to himself in that moment.
And then the dating strategy.

Charles (49:34):
Damn his dating strategy.

Dan (49:35):
His dating strategy was I'm going to keep asking you and
trying to sell you on this firstdate and dinner and and tell
you about all these good things,which wasn't a great strategy
anyway, but I don't think he wasthinking dating strategy when
he was.
Basically, he finally said look, this job isn't for me.

Charles (49:53):
Maybe he wasn't you know I don't think he's trying
to out himself, but I stilldon't like it because, okay, I
mean like oh, hey, I understandyou like confident guys.
Well, I've got good news foryou.
When circumstances allow me tofeel good about myself, I'm real
confident.
What?
So you're not confident becauseyou don't right, you're good

(50:14):
about yourself all that hive.
So you're not confident all thetime.
So that's not confident right?
no, but what he was saying waswhen I feel good about myself, I
get to pretend like I.
No, what he was saying was whenI feel good about myself, I get
to pretend like.

Dan (50:22):
I'm confident.
Well, what he was saying was hewas being vulnerable.
He's like I don't feel goodabout myself in this job.
This is not for me, and that'swhen she's just like what do you
mean?
Like you put time into this,you've got experience.
Who cares what the Buddha says?
And so I think I don't likethat level of disclosure.

Charles (50:40):
Those are all internal conversations that a guy should
be having with himself to becomethe man he wants to be.
And so you've never.
I see I think it was dating.
That's the thing.
I think it was dating strategy.
I think all the stuff he'stelling her is part of his sales
pitch to why she should want tobe with him.

Dan (50:58):
Okay, I can see that, while it may be true, because he does
want to be confident.

Charles (51:02):
It's part of the pitch.
Okay, I can see that.

Dan (51:05):
I can see that, yeah but I give him credit for at least
being honest about himself andnot trying to pretend like he
was this brave security guardwho protected the, the compound
from the, from the guard fromfrom the robbers, remember.
So at least this in this, inthis instance, he was actually,
I think, honest with her abouthow he was feeling.

(51:27):
So, strategy or not, I'm notsure.

Charles (51:29):
I mean, I do feel like, again, I I don't give people
praise for communicating truthsabout yourself in the weakest
possible way is seeminglysuboptimal behavior.
Okay, and I feel like that'swhat he did basically all season
was anytime that he wascommunicating something about
himself, he chose to do it in away that was angry, weak and

(51:53):
kind of whiny, instead of I mean, hey, I, I decided this job
doesn't work for me anymore, soi'm'm going to quit and find
another job.
Oh, I thought you wereambitious, okay, yeah, I think a
lot of that too.
For me to be a lot moredismissive of the push track
that she was giving him thewhole season, because, honestly,
I mean, I don't love using redpill buzzwords like shit test.

(52:17):
So she was shit testing him fora good portion of the season,
trying to see if she could pokehim and find spots of weakness,
and he's like, here they are,yeah, and I, I did not.

Dan (52:30):
I did not care for him behaving that way and and I I
can see that for sure I think abetter move would have been to
show and not tell yeah, right,go get that other job.
Don't even you know, I'm sayingjust go get, go get another job
.
That actually gives you thatconfidence that you're looking
for yeah and and right.

Charles (52:47):
Looking to the girl that you want to date, marry or
be with for your strategiccareer planning is not going to
do you any favors in thestrategic career planning or the
dating the girl.
It's going to be a mistake forboth of those purposes.
So don't, don't bounce your.
I think I'm going to quit myjob and stop having an income
plan off of the girl you want tobe with would you want to see

(53:09):
either of those characters inthe next season?
definitely not.
No, I I've already decided whothey are and I don't want to see
anymore okay.

Dan (53:17):
So who do you want to see the next season?

Charles (53:18):
because they always have somebody linked, gary I
want to see in the next season,because they always have
somebody linked Gary.
I want to see Gary slash, gregmake it.

Dan (53:24):
I just want to see that scene where Gary is standing
there at the foot of the bedwith his girlfriend sleeping
with somebody else.
Is that what you're excitedabout?

Charles (53:35):
No, I don't know that I want to see any of these
characters make it to the nextseason.
Okay, I guess I'd like to keephim.
If he's going to, I want to seehim maintain the the gary kind
of being sprinkled into everyseason and seeing what he's up
to.
But let's talk about thesituation.
Uh, I hated the fact thatbelinda brought her son into
this dangerous situation.
Yeah, and the one character Ithought that behaved in a way

(53:59):
that they didn't earn, didn'tmake sense in the context, was
like on a dime, she decides thatshe's the badass who's going to
outmaneuver the murdering halfbillionaire.
Like I'm going to walk away andthen my son's going to come
after me and then I'm going totell him exactly how we're going
to handle this guy.
Like, she went from being I'mscared, I'm worried, I'm anxious

(54:20):
, I don't know what this guy'sgoing to do to me To, all of a
sudden, just and look, maybe shehas some backstory and some
history where she's tougher thanshe looks.
But you didn't give us any ofthat backstory.
All you gave us was I'm scared,I'm anxious.

Dan (54:34):
I think you said everything the rustling in the bushes,
whatever the reptiles, the Nazis.

Charles (54:39):
It was like, yeah, whatever reptiles the Nazis.
It was like, yeah, and then allof a sudden I'm just gonna turn
on a dime and become thismaster negotiator with this
murderer.
Yeah, I was a little bit model.
That was a little bit of anunder turned for her character
and again, I hate the idea thata good mother is going to expose
her son and let him participatein this extortion caper in any
way whatsoever.

Dan (55:00):
That's not what a good mother would do and and he
seemed like a good son, likehe's like squeaky clean, like I
mean they both seemed a littletoo money-grubbing for me.

Charles (55:10):
Toward the end I did not like the we're going to work
this, I mean.
Yeah, especially belinda inparticular seemed 100 convinced
that he definitely murdered hiswife.
Yeah, she was not ambiguous Now, like like you and me have been
.
No, and she was like she wasterrified for a life that she
was going to get Correct MurderRight, and so you're going to

(55:34):
you're going to mention this toyour son.
You're going to bring your soninto the negotiation.
You're going to show up at theguy's house with your son.
You're going to show up at theguy's house with your son I mean
a guy with 500 million dollarsfrom the second they walked in
to have this conversation.
He could have disappeared bothof them and they never would
have been seen from or heardagain and again.

Dan (55:49):
If you wanted to make that happen, he has the money and the
resources to make yeah, youknow, what's interesting is why
didn't she just say meet me in apublic place, we'll discuss
there, like right?

Charles (55:58):
yeah, yeah, I.
I think I did not like thatdevelopment.
I didn't believe it either.
Her character.
So that was the.
That was the sloppiest part ofthe finale for me was that she,
she turned into this art of thedeal badass, I'm gonna.
I'm gonna stick it to this guy.
I'm gonna get what I, what Ideserve out of him.
That that was not consistentwith anything near who she was

(56:21):
for.
The for the rest of the seasonand letting her son get involved
with it.
It's one thing.
It's like I'm gonna keep this asecret.
I haven't said a word to this.
I haven't said a word to my sonabout this.
My son doesn't know that I'mhere somebody does, but not my
son, so we'll handle this like acouple of adults bringing the

(56:41):
son along I.
It made it made me angry.
That's.
That's not what a mom who caresabout her son does, and that's
not what a woman who cares aboutthe right thing does either.

Dan (56:52):
It was that's good point, right, she's got.
She's got the problem with theethics of of him taking money,
blood money, but yet she's notgot no problem putting her, her
actual blood up for moneycorrect?

Charles (57:05):
yeah, I didn't care for that.
So yeah any other.
Any other thoughts about theseries as it, as it played out?
You know, I think I don't, Idon't.
Let's see if they have a greenlit another season.

Dan (57:16):
I'm sure yeah, they did the day after they.
They did green light.

Charles (57:20):
That I know he wants to do it, they'll, they'll keep oh
yeah, they did.

Dan (57:22):
I think the day after this was released, I remember reading
something online they, yeah,they're definitely doing I
wonder, I wonder what year itprobably is not going to be
until what?

Charles (57:29):
2026 or seven?
I'm sure it's definitely notgoing to be this year no
probably it'll be 26.

Dan (57:34):
The early is maybe 27, maybe 28 yeah, I'd be curious to
know when the filming starts,so it so.
It's usually about a year orsix months after filming starts
that it airs Something like that, right, yeah?

Charles (57:44):
usually depending on how many special effects let's
see.
White Lotus season four.
Oh well, he's doing Survivor.
You said Late 26 or early 27.
For release or start shootingno for release.

Dan (57:58):
Oh, okay, all right.

Charles (58:00):
Filming is anticipated to begin in 2026.
So, if they film in early 2026.
And early Late, 26 or early 27.
Because, yeah, there's not alot of CGI in a show like this
that they have to spend a lot oftime on.

Dan (58:13):
So I think, as we have to put on the calendar as every
week, we should do the episoderight after.
Do a lot as it comes out, or wecould even, and then maybe come
back at the end and go, okay,do a summary at the end after we
know the whole story.

Charles (58:30):
I'd love to do that.
I could even watch it live.

Dan (58:32):
Dude, let's do it Broadcast .
That would be amazing.
I would love to do that.

Charles (58:36):
I don't know.
You think I'll still be aliveearly 2027?

Dan (58:39):
It's a gamble?
I don't know.

Charles (58:40):
All right, so we're done with the White Lotus season
three, or it's done with us.
However, you want to say it andwe'll move on to.
I think we should do popularmedia again.
Sure, I enjoyed it.
I really enjoyed it too.
Take a break from we'll go backto a book we're going to do,
let them right by Mel Robbins.
Yeah, so we'll do that next andtry to keep it around eight

(59:03):
episodes.
I don't want to make the seriestoo long or too short, but I'll
recommend for how many episodeswe should do on Let them.
I haven't started listening toit yet.
You're already done right, Idid.

Dan (59:13):
I'm definitely going to need to re-listen to it.
What do you give it out of fivestars?
I give it like four and a halfor have a five yeah, I mean also
mel robbins, very easy tolisten to for me okay very
entertaining and and I like theway she summarizes things too.
So she's entertaining, she'seasy to listen to.
I think she's funny and she'sshe.

(59:35):
She takes a lot of the, thescience and stuff, distills it
down and then puts it into plainlanguage, and I really
appreciate that.

Charles (59:42):
Okay cool, I'm looking forward to starting.
So yeah, next time you hearfrom us, we'll be talking about
Mel Robbins and her bestselling.
I mean it was quite ablockbuster.
A lot of people are reading it,a lot of people are talking
about it, so we'll we'll numberamong them.
Thanks for listening to theentire episode and for joining
us through this journey to theWhite Lotus season three.
We had a great time breakingdown these characters, their

(01:00:05):
choices and what it says aboutmasculinity in the modern world.
We'll be back next week with anew series diving into the let
them theory by Mel Robbins, sostay tuned for that, and in the
meantime, you can find fullaudio and video episodes as
anything else that we're up toat mindfullymasculinecom.
Take care and we'll talk to younext.