April 21, 2020 • 20 mins
For this special end of season wrap-up episode, I asked my friend and fellow podcaster Josh Ogden-Davis to join me for a chat. We talk about things like interview techniques, the editing process, and some of the show’s influences. But the main reason for recording this episode was to announce what’s coming next. Chapters 00:00 - Trailer & Intro 00:44 - Main 19:01 - Outro Instagram: www.instagram.com/oscology Facebook: www.facebook.com/mosaicofchina WeChat: www.mosaicofchina.com/wechat
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
[Trailer]JO: Later I realised,
(00:04):
oh they were telling me to shut upbecause I'm talking too much. And
that's a paradox because no-one whodoesn't like talking makes a podcast.
[Intro]OF: Welcome to Mosaic of China,
a podcast about people who are making theirmark in China. I'm your host Oscar Fuchs. So,
for this special end of season wrap-up, Iasked my friend and fellow podcaster Josh
(00:24):
Ogden-Davis to join me for a chat. I hopeyou enjoy our discussion about some of the
things that go into creating the podcast. Wetalk about stuff like interview techniques,
the editing process, and some of the show’sinfluences. But the main reason for recording
this episode was to announce what's coming next.So please listen in until that part at the end.
(00:45):
[Main]OF: Thank you.
Josh. I'm in your glorious apartment.This is where the magic happens with
your podcasts. You do how many podcasts?JO: So I do one podcast that's in English,
and that's Mandarin Slang Guide, and that's aninterview-based podcasts like yours. Whereas
you're focusing on bringing out peoples’ stories,I'm focusing on getting some words that people
(01:07):
who are learning Chinese will not get from theirChinese class. So, slang words mostly, or words
that are only used in certain industries, or wordsthat are very fascinating for the current cultural
moment. Aside from that I have maybe three or fourpodcasts that are in Mandarin. And the philosophy
for these podcasts are just completely different.And I'm very curious about your philosophy behind
(01:30):
Mosaic of China. Because you've talked about it alittle bit before like your reasons for starting
it, but I'm curious what is the philosophicalunderpinnings of this? What's the nut?
OF (01:39):
Oh wow, that's a hard question to jump straight into.
JO (01:42):
Tell me the deepest thing right off. OF
information through the stories of human beings.It's as simple as that. And it's not many people
who would actually gravitate towards this podcast.If you're outside of China, maybe you could learn
something about China, but you're not goingto seek it out. People are just a bit scared
(02:05):
of China and they would rather it didn't existthan try and seek out stories to help explain it.
Yeah, can it just go away? Can this stop being an issue?
OF (02:14):
Yeah, which is what I'm trying to bridge. But then you flip to people who are in China:
those guys, they're also hard for me to reach withthis podcast, because a lot of those guys, they're
the kind of people who often think that they knoweverything already. So already my audience is
basically, on either side of that spectrum, justpeople who are naturally curious, who want to hear
(02:39):
from different angles, and who have the abilityjust to say OK, well, maybe I can learn something
new from people who are living different lives.JO: You've done thirty episodes of Mosaic of
China. That's a lot of episodes. That is alot of stuff. What have you learned over the
process of producing so much content in Season 1?OF: Right. More often than anything, it's just
(03:05):
about the different personalities, how differentpeople live their lives in different ways. And
most chats, even though they're so different,I end up leaving the conversation thinking “Oh
they're just like me”.JO: Yeah.
Right? That was something I think I came into this already knowing. But I
(03:26):
guess the experience of going throughit, it has galvanised that thought.
JO (03:30):
And that ties back to what you said earlier about how sharing stories is a
great way to bridge this gap between people inthe West and people in the East who think very
differently and are increasingly viewing eachother with suspicion. I'm curious about what
do you wish you had known before you started?OF: I would say, the process of learning as I
(03:53):
went along was something I wouldnot change. JO: Yes. Absolutely.
OF (03:57):
I mean of course, I also learnt a lot before I started, I mean, meeting people
like you was really helpful.JO: Yeah. We met at Podfest.
That’s right. JO
ago, one year ago, something like that.OF: Yeah. But then you only really realise
how you’re going to do it once you getstarted. I mean, it's like anything,
it’s like any new job. It reminds me of whenI started off as a headhunter. And Day One,
(04:18):
you had to give people career advice.JO: Yeah.
You know, and then you do it over and over again, until it finally clicks and then you
sort of become it.JO: Right.
Now that I can look back at the last thirty episodes, I think that has really been the process
that I would not change. And actually, it sortof bleeds into my worries for Season 2 actually,
(04:40):
because with Season 1 all the people whowere guests, they were doing it in a very
experimental mindset. They had, for themost part, never heard any episodes yet.
JO (04:50):
Right, yeah. OF
a lot before I even released the first episode.They didn't know how it was going to sound. They
didn't know how other people would answerthe questions and how theirs would compare.
Right, yeah. OF
that people are going to be more knowing about it.JO: Yeah. That's something that people who listen
to podcasts don't really know. So creatingsomething from nothing. What is this podcast?
(05:14):
There's a journey that happens as a podcasterthat we almost have to hide from our listeners,
because it's not really about us, is it.It’s about the topic that we’re doing.
OF (05:22):
Right. It's all very self-referential talking about the process of the podcast. But yeah, I mean
that's that's the only thing that I would say toanswer that question. I think, otherwise it has
more or less landed where I thought it would be.JO: Let’s chip into a little bit of the nitty
gritty. I want to talk a little bit aboutyour interview techniques, because that's
(05:43):
something that you do a lot more of than I do.How do you approach an interview? What's your
preparation like for interviewing someone?OF: Well, I think researching the person is
pretty important. So in my mind, I’ve prepareda few questions where I think I know where the
conversation will go. But I don't knowif that's technique, it's just being a
good conversationalist, I suppose. In termsof technique, I guess shutting up is my key
(06:09):
technique. Just shutting up. Because when I talknormally, and I think this is normal conversation,
I'm always interrupting. It's just a terriblehabit of mine. I'm listening, but I'm talking
a lot. And the technique I use in interviewsis just every second, say “Oscar shut up,
Oscar shut up”. Like, people who know me wouldbe quite surprised at how little they hear me.
JO (06:32):
Yeah. We have that in common, I remember after my first episode of MSG I sent it to a
lot of friends, and I asked for peoples’opinions, and one person very generously
said “I would love to hear more fromthe guest”. They phrased it in a way
that I understood it to mean that this listenerreally liked this guest. And later I realised,
(06:53):
oh they were telling me to shut up because I'mtalking too much. And that's a paradox because
no-one who doesn't like talking makes a podcast.But one of the most important things about
having a podcast is knowing when not to talk.OF: Yeah. And I figured, you're going to hear
my voice across those thirty episodes.You know, anyone listening would have
quite enough of my voice, thank you very much.JO: What do you tell a guest before the interview?
(07:15):
How do you prep your guest for the interview?OF: I try to talk on mic for quite a while
before I start. So it's not just (07:21):
turn the mic on, we’re starting. Because if you do that,
then suddenly you forget how to talk. So I guessthat's one technique. I think the other one is
something which I learnt as a headhunter,which was to mirror their energy. And not
they are mirroring my energy. So that when youhear the podcast, there'll be quite different
(07:43):
feelings in different episodes. Some willbe quite slow and thoughtful and ponderous,
and some will be a little bit cheeky. Some willbe serious, some will be light. And generally
speaking, that's because I'm adapting towhat they want to do. And that, I think,
gives the variety. So that is a good way ofmaking people feel that they are in a space
(08:07):
which is, sort of, for them. The thing that Iput into practice most of all is… people call
it “deep listening” but it's just a way thatyou're concentrating carefully on what people
are saying. That is helpful in a way that youcan make connections with what they may have
said earlier in the conversation. Where, if youwere listening a bit more casually, you probably
(08:29):
wouldn't have the equipment to do that.JO: And you're so good at that.
My attention span is so short.OF: But it doesn't come naturally to me either.
Like, at the end of an interview I'm exhausted.JO: Let me ask you this very stereotypical
artists’ question. Tell me about your influences.OF: That's good. Yeah. Wow. Actually, people would
(08:50):
recognise some of the influences, I would say, inmy podcast. The piece about bringing in an object,
that was heavily influenced by a British showcalled Desert Island Discs. And that is a show
that's been running in the UK for, oh god, it mustbe thirty, forty years. Somebody will correct me
on that. And each guest brings in six “discs” backin those days, which is basically music singles,
(09:15):
which in some way tell a story of their life. Andmost Brits would have heard about that programme.
And it just means that the guest is pre-preparedwith something. They want to justify their choice,
in a way. Which I think is very useful.So that was definitely a big influence,
I've listened to that for god knows how manyyears. Another influence was Humans of New York.
JO (09:40):
Oh yeah. OF
it’s the Facebook group where it doesn'tmatter who you are, you could be the banker,
you could be the beggar on the street, butyou've got your story. You can tell the obvious
parallels to Mosaic of China. I mean, I wish Icould interview the beggar on the street here,
but mine is an English language podcast.JO: Can you share with us, what are some
(10:03):
of the most memorable moments for you? And I'velistened to every episode of Mosaic of China,
it's a weekly ritual for me, and I know whatI've really enjoyed. But from your point of view,
what's going to really stick with you?OF: It’s really hard to choose because
some were way back in… I mean, it could havebeen a year ago, it could have been April of
(10:24):
2019. And the funny thing that I've been doing isI did the interview, and then waited quite a long
time before doing the edit. So I think most of thesurprises (which probably isn't what you're trying
to go for with your question) came in listeningto the interview. Where I was like “Wow, I don’t
(10:45):
remember saying that”. I think, in the interviewitself, I mean, the one that springs to mind is
the episode with Emily Madge who was the aquarium…JO: Oh, the fish facts.
OF (10:59):
The fish facts. She came up with the most bizarre fish facts, and a lot of them were quite
rude. I ended up cutting out quite a few.JO: And that leads into my next question,
which is, what have you cut out that you wish thatyou didn't have to cut out? I always have that,
like, either we get onto politics or someonemakes a dirty joke, and I have to cut it out.
(11:19):
But I feel so sad because I just love thatmoment, and I love that it was recorded,
but I can't share it. Have you had that?OF: Yes there’s been a few of those,
there's been a few. I think Roz, she wasthe immersive theatre producer, she had some
quite dirty jokes which I had to cut in the end.Actually it wasn't because they were too dirty,
but somehow they didn't get picked up on the micvery well. So it was a quality thing. I mean,
(11:42):
there have been other things too. Lexie, whowas the cookie entrepreneur, her story about
the employee who ended up cheating on her,that went down a very interesting story,
which in the end I had to cut just because itgot a little bit too personal. But actually,
(12:03):
I always want to always protect the guest.JO: Of course.
So I would always err on the side of making them look good and making them feel comfortable.
I mean, I always share the recording withthe guests before I release as well actually.
JO (12:14):
That’s great. OF
that a couple of weeks before we're due, so theycan always come back and say: no, yes, whatever.
You’re so organised. I usually, as soon as I’m done editing,
I just launch. I'm usually down to the wire.OF: Oh well, I guess I've made my life very
difficult because there's a lot of things that I'mjuggling, which means that I can't be as quick. I
wish I could actually. I guess, if I think aboutwhat I have cut, I did use to worry about that a
(12:42):
lot. Honestly speaking, nowadays I don't worryabout it so much. I think about the sculpture,
the person who is chipping away at the rock tomake the sculpture. There might be some really
nice pieces of rock that you could have used,but ultimately if it's not part of the sculpture,
then what are you gonna do?JO: Yeah. So, what’s next?
(13:02):
Where’s Mosaic of China going from here?OF: Right. Well, there's bad news and good
news. The bad news is that I shouldhave been recording Season 2 by now.
Oh, but you’re not. OF
We are still in this weird limbo period. A lot ofmy guests are still not in China. When the music
(13:29):
stopped, they were outside of China. So I couldtry and do it over Zoom, but I think the intimacy
of being in the same room, I think is quiteimportant to the podcast. So I'm not going to do
it until perhaps there's a chance for those guysto come back. Even people who are here in China,
which is the majority I would say of Season 2,you’re still not in your normal routines. Your
(13:55):
mind is still completely off-kilter. And so, Iwant to give it a chance for people to start to
get back to whatever the new normal becomes. Sothat the virus doesn't infect, to use the word,
the entire season. I think, of course, therewill be some references to before and after
(14:16):
coronavirus, because I think that's going to bejust what's going to happen. There's definitely
going to be a difference of lifestyle. But ifI started to record now, it would just be all
about it. So I have no choice but to have a bit ofa pause. And, you know what? Some people in Season
2 will not come back to China, and so I have toswitch those guys out. And there are other people
whose circumstances have changed and they nolonger want to be in Season 2. The rule was that
(14:42):
you couldn't say a referral unless they'd alreadysaid yes to Season 2. But people are free to say
no at this point. The good news is that I havebeen busy during my coronavirus self-isolation
I’m waiting with bated breath. OF
(15:04):
end is that now I can edit down the podcasts anddo special compilation episodes of how everyone
answered those ten questions.JO: Okay.
OF (15:13):
So this is what I've been doing for the last two months. I've just compiled them into special
episodes on your favourite China-related fact, oron your favourite place to hang out, and each of
them really work well as a compilation episode.JO: Yeah, I never thought about that.
I hadn’t thought about it either, to the extent that I thought oh I'm going to sit down
(15:36):
and actually do it, because who has the time todo that? Well, actually I did have the time. And
I’ve really enjoyed doing that because it'snice to hear all the different voices of the
season together in one episode. And it sort of,at the same time, makes me feel about these thirty
people, even though they're so different and somehave never even met each other, they all belong
(16:00):
together. So I think without these compilationsthey all stand alone, and I think with these
compilations they now form something which is moreone unit. Which I've really enjoyed. So I have ten
episodes now which I will release every two weeks.JO: Oh wow, yeah.
So that means I've got some content which I can drip out in the next twenty weeks,
(16:21):
which hopefully will give me sometime to, towards the end, start to
record Season 2. So at the end of that process,hopefully, I'll be ready to release Season 2.
JO (16:32):
Yeah, that's fantastic. And these are going to be, I think, great episodes for a number of
reasons. For all the reasons that you mentioned,but also because they have such potential to reach
out to people who aren't in Mosaic of China rightnow. Like, if on my feed something came up that
said “Thirty People's Answers to the Best Placeto Hang Out in Shanghai” I want to know the best
(16:54):
places to hang out in Shanghai. Favourite factsabout China, I want to know all these facts. Like,
this has great outreach potential.OF: I agree. And also, like,
when it comes to engaging the people who arein those WeChat groups, who have been sitting
there quite quietly for most to the time thanksfor me bullying them, this allows me to say,
(17:14):
“OK, it’s going to be the episode on yourfavourite China fact. Now's the time for you
guys to share your favourite China fact.”JO: This is such a brilliant idea. It's
almost like you had this planned from the verybeginning. It's such a serendipitous thing to do.
OF (17:27):
Yeah. This is like, you know people talk about “the virus has allowed me to be more creative and
to look things in different angles”, and I thinkthat's kind of what was inspiring me to do this.
And I’m especially proud of the KTV answerbecause I even went and got the music that
they said, and have put it on the bed of whatthey're saying. However I can't release it.
JO (17:51):
Copyright OF
made the episode, so if somebody wants it, thenthey can email me and I'll share it privately,
but I can't publicise that one.JO: Excellent. Well I’m very
much looking forward to all of that. I want these
episodes, I want these compilationsOF: Well I love what you do. I love
how engaged you've been with my project and howhelpful, not just you actually, there have been
(18:13):
other people who have been also as generous, butyou in particular have been so kind to always give
me an answer and to have reached out and helped.And so I really appreciate that and I wanted to
make sure that your mark is also in this Season.JO: Well I’m very happy to do it, and I think
that there's real value in helping out otherpeople as well. There are so many people in this
day and age, everyone's got a podcast, right?But not everyone's doing it well, and so I’m
(18:36):
happy to help out where I can when people aremaking good content that I enjoy listening to.
OF (18:41):
Well, the same goes for you, and let's end this podcast on this tone of mutual appreciation.
JO (18:46):
Oh I can hear the background music coming in now. The episode’s almost over.
OF (18:49):
Thank you Josh, I'll make sure that that is exactly what we do, and it'll sound so smooth
that you'll think I’m a pro.JO: I have every confidence.
[Outro]OF: Well if you want an example
of what I meant when I said I was afraid forfuture guests being too knowing about the podcast,
listen no further than that ending. Thank youagain to Josh for giving up his time and his
(19:13):
apartment for this interview. I should mentionthat he also gave up a glass of Sichuan pepper
infused rum, which started to have its effectduring the interview. So apologies if I sounded
more slurred and giggly than usual. That wasme experiencing Josh’s interview technique
right there. Just a reminder, if you're a fanof Mandarin please check out his MSG Mandarin
Slang Guide podcast. He also has a really engagedgroup of fans on WeChat, which is a lot of fun to
(19:38):
be in. I posted some photos from the conversationon my WeChat group, of course. Please add me there
on Oscar10877 and I'll include you there. Or youcan just follow @mosaicofchina on Instagram or
Facebook. Only one correction to make, itwas about Desert Island Discs, the British
radio show. It was actually first broadcastin 1942, which makes it not thirty or forty,
(20:00):
but eighty years old. So I'm looking forwardto Mosaic of China also being around that long,
it will be the year 2100, and I’ll make sure thatthis podcast is automatically implanted into your
brain. I did all my other “thank you”s at the endof Octo’s episode last week. So all that remains
for me to say is that I will see you in two weekstime for the first of the compilation episodes,
(20:21):
which will be on the subject of favouritetravel destinations within China. See you then.
[Trailer]JO: Later I realised,
(00:04):
oh they were telling me to shut upbecause I'm talking too much. And
that's a paradox because no-one whodoesn't like talking makes a podcast.
[Intro]OF: Welcome to Mosaic of China,
a podcast about people who are making theirmark in China. I'm your host Oscar Fuchs. So,
for this special end of season wrap-up, Iasked my friend and fellow podcaster Josh
(00:24):
Ogden-Davis to join me for a chat. I hopeyou enjoy our discussion about some of the
things that go into creating the podcast. Wetalk about stuff like interview techniques,
the editing process, and some of the show’sinfluences. But the main reason for recording
this episode was to announce what's coming next.So please listen in until that part at the end.
(00:45):
[Main]OF: Thank you.
Josh. I'm in your glorious apartment.This is where the magic happens with
your podcasts. You do how many podcasts?JO: So I do one podcast that's in English,
and that's Mandarin Slang Guide, and that's aninterview-based podcasts like yours. Whereas
you're focusing on bringing out peoples’ stories,I'm focusing on getting some words that people
(01:07):
who are learning Chinese will not get from theirChinese class. So, slang words mostly, or words
that are only used in certain industries, or wordsthat are very fascinating for the current cultural
moment. Aside from that I have maybe three or fourpodcasts that are in Mandarin. And the philosophy
for these podcasts are just completely different.And I'm very curious about your philosophy behind
(01:30):
Mosaic of China. Because you've talked about it alittle bit before like your reasons for starting
it, but I'm curious what is the philosophicalunderpinnings of this? What's the nut?
OF (01:39):
Oh wow, that's a hard question to jump straight into.
JO (01:42):
Tell me the deepest thing right off. OF
information through the stories of human beings.It's as simple as that. And it's not many people
who would actually gravitate towards this podcast.If you're outside of China, maybe you could learn
something about China, but you're not goingto seek it out. People are just a bit scared
(02:05):
of China and they would rather it didn't existthan try and seek out stories to help explain it.
Yeah, can it just go away? Can this stop being an issue?
OF (02:14):
Yeah, which is what I'm trying to bridge. But then you flip to people who are in China:
those guys, they're also hard for me to reach withthis podcast, because a lot of those guys, they're
the kind of people who often think that they knoweverything already. So already my audience is
basically, on either side of that spectrum, justpeople who are naturally curious, who want to hear
(02:39):
from different angles, and who have the abilityjust to say OK, well, maybe I can learn something
new from people who are living different lives.JO: You've done thirty episodes of Mosaic of
China. That's a lot of episodes. That is alot of stuff. What have you learned over the
process of producing so much content in Season 1?OF: Right. More often than anything, it's just
(03:05):
about the different personalities, how differentpeople live their lives in different ways. And
most chats, even though they're so different,I end up leaving the conversation thinking “Oh
they're just like me”.JO: Yeah.
Right? That was something I think I came into this already knowing. But I
(03:26):
guess the experience of going throughit, it has galvanised that thought.
JO (03:30):
And that ties back to what you said earlier about how sharing stories is a
great way to bridge this gap between people inthe West and people in the East who think very
differently and are increasingly viewing eachother with suspicion. I'm curious about what
do you wish you had known before you started?OF: I would say, the process of learning as I
(03:53):
went along was something I wouldnot change. JO: Yes. Absolutely.
OF (03:57):
I mean of course, I also learnt a lot before I started, I mean, meeting people
like you was really helpful.JO: Yeah. We met at Podfest.
That’s right. JO
ago, one year ago, something like that.OF: Yeah. But then you only really realise
how you’re going to do it once you getstarted. I mean, it's like anything,
it’s like any new job. It reminds me of whenI started off as a headhunter. And Day One,
(04:18):
you had to give people career advice.JO: Yeah.
You know, and then you do it over and over again, until it finally clicks and then you
sort of become it.JO: Right.
Now that I can look back at the last thirty episodes, I think that has really been the process
that I would not change. And actually, it sortof bleeds into my worries for Season 2 actually,
(04:40):
because with Season 1 all the people whowere guests, they were doing it in a very
experimental mindset. They had, for themost part, never heard any episodes yet.
JO (04:50):
Right, yeah. OF
a lot before I even released the first episode.They didn't know how it was going to sound. They
didn't know how other people would answerthe questions and how theirs would compare.
Right, yeah. OF
that people are going to be more knowing about it.JO: Yeah. That's something that people who listen
to podcasts don't really know. So creatingsomething from nothing. What is this podcast?
(05:14):
There's a journey that happens as a podcasterthat we almost have to hide from our listeners,
because it's not really about us, is it.It’s about the topic that we’re doing.
OF (05:22):
Right. It's all very self-referential talking about the process of the podcast. But yeah, I mean
that's that's the only thing that I would say toanswer that question. I think, otherwise it has
more or less landed where I thought it would be.JO: Let’s chip into a little bit of the nitty
gritty. I want to talk a little bit aboutyour interview techniques, because that's
(05:43):
something that you do a lot more of than I do.How do you approach an interview? What's your
preparation like for interviewing someone?OF: Well, I think researching the person is
pretty important. So in my mind, I’ve prepareda few questions where I think I know where the
conversation will go. But I don't knowif that's technique, it's just being a
good conversationalist, I suppose. In termsof technique, I guess shutting up is my key
(06:09):
technique. Just shutting up. Because when I talknormally, and I think this is normal conversation,
I'm always interrupting. It's just a terriblehabit of mine. I'm listening, but I'm talking
a lot. And the technique I use in interviewsis just every second, say “Oscar shut up,
Oscar shut up”. Like, people who know me wouldbe quite surprised at how little they hear me.
JO (06:32):
Yeah. We have that in common, I remember after my first episode of MSG I sent it to a
lot of friends, and I asked for peoples’opinions, and one person very generously
said “I would love to hear more fromthe guest”. They phrased it in a way
that I understood it to mean that this listenerreally liked this guest. And later I realised,
(06:53):
oh they were telling me to shut up because I'mtalking too much. And that's a paradox because
no-one who doesn't like talking makes a podcast.But one of the most important things about
having a podcast is knowing when not to talk.OF: Yeah. And I figured, you're going to hear
my voice across those thirty episodes.You know, anyone listening would have
quite enough of my voice, thank you very much.JO: What do you tell a guest before the interview?
(07:15):
How do you prep your guest for the interview?OF: I try to talk on mic for quite a while
before I start. So it's not just (07:21):
turn the mic on, we’re starting. Because if you do that,
then suddenly you forget how to talk. So I guessthat's one technique. I think the other one is
something which I learnt as a headhunter,which was to mirror their energy. And not
they are mirroring my energy. So that when youhear the podcast, there'll be quite different
(07:43):
feelings in different episodes. Some willbe quite slow and thoughtful and ponderous,
and some will be a little bit cheeky. Some willbe serious, some will be light. And generally
speaking, that's because I'm adapting towhat they want to do. And that, I think,
gives the variety. So that is a good way ofmaking people feel that they are in a space
(08:07):
which is, sort of, for them. The thing that Iput into practice most of all is… people call
it “deep listening” but it's just a way thatyou're concentrating carefully on what people
are saying. That is helpful in a way that youcan make connections with what they may have
said earlier in the conversation. Where, if youwere listening a bit more casually, you probably
(08:29):
wouldn't have the equipment to do that.JO: And you're so good at that.
My attention span is so short.OF: But it doesn't come naturally to me either.
Like, at the end of an interview I'm exhausted.JO: Let me ask you this very stereotypical
artists’ question. Tell me about your influences.OF: That's good. Yeah. Wow. Actually, people would
(08:50):
recognise some of the influences, I would say, inmy podcast. The piece about bringing in an object,
that was heavily influenced by a British showcalled Desert Island Discs. And that is a show
that's been running in the UK for, oh god, it mustbe thirty, forty years. Somebody will correct me
on that. And each guest brings in six “discs” backin those days, which is basically music singles,
(09:15):
which in some way tell a story of their life. Andmost Brits would have heard about that programme.
And it just means that the guest is pre-preparedwith something. They want to justify their choice,
in a way. Which I think is very useful.So that was definitely a big influence,
I've listened to that for god knows how manyyears. Another influence was Humans of New York.
JO (09:40):
Oh yeah. OF
it’s the Facebook group where it doesn'tmatter who you are, you could be the banker,
you could be the beggar on the street, butyou've got your story. You can tell the obvious
parallels to Mosaic of China. I mean, I wish Icould interview the beggar on the street here,
but mine is an English language podcast.JO: Can you share with us, what are some
(10:03):
of the most memorable moments for you? And I'velistened to every episode of Mosaic of China,
it's a weekly ritual for me, and I know whatI've really enjoyed. But from your point of view,
what's going to really stick with you?OF: It’s really hard to choose because
some were way back in… I mean, it could havebeen a year ago, it could have been April of
(10:24):
2019. And the funny thing that I've been doing isI did the interview, and then waited quite a long
time before doing the edit. So I think most of thesurprises (which probably isn't what you're trying
to go for with your question) came in listeningto the interview. Where I was like “Wow, I don’t
(10:45):
remember saying that”. I think, in the interviewitself, I mean, the one that springs to mind is
the episode with Emily Madge who was the aquarium…JO: Oh, the fish facts.
OF (10:59):
The fish facts. She came up with the most bizarre fish facts, and a lot of them were quite
rude. I ended up cutting out quite a few.JO: And that leads into my next question,
which is, what have you cut out that you wish thatyou didn't have to cut out? I always have that,
like, either we get onto politics or someonemakes a dirty joke, and I have to cut it out.
(11:19):
But I feel so sad because I just love thatmoment, and I love that it was recorded,
but I can't share it. Have you had that?OF: Yes there’s been a few of those,
there's been a few. I think Roz, she wasthe immersive theatre producer, she had some
quite dirty jokes which I had to cut in the end.Actually it wasn't because they were too dirty,
but somehow they didn't get picked up on the micvery well. So it was a quality thing. I mean,
(11:42):
there have been other things too. Lexie, whowas the cookie entrepreneur, her story about
the employee who ended up cheating on her,that went down a very interesting story,
which in the end I had to cut just because itgot a little bit too personal. But actually,
(12:03):
I always want to always protect the guest.JO: Of course.
So I would always err on the side of making them look good and making them feel comfortable.
I mean, I always share the recording withthe guests before I release as well actually.
JO (12:14):
That’s great. OF
that a couple of weeks before we're due, so theycan always come back and say: no, yes, whatever.
You’re so organised. I usually, as soon as I’m done editing,
I just launch. I'm usually down to the wire.OF: Oh well, I guess I've made my life very
difficult because there's a lot of things that I'mjuggling, which means that I can't be as quick. I
wish I could actually. I guess, if I think aboutwhat I have cut, I did use to worry about that a
(12:42):
lot. Honestly speaking, nowadays I don't worryabout it so much. I think about the sculpture,
the person who is chipping away at the rock tomake the sculpture. There might be some really
nice pieces of rock that you could have used,but ultimately if it's not part of the sculpture,
then what are you gonna do?JO: Yeah. So, what’s next?
(13:02):
Where’s Mosaic of China going from here?OF: Right. Well, there's bad news and good
news. The bad news is that I shouldhave been recording Season 2 by now.
Oh, but you’re not. OF
We are still in this weird limbo period. A lot ofmy guests are still not in China. When the music
(13:29):
stopped, they were outside of China. So I couldtry and do it over Zoom, but I think the intimacy
of being in the same room, I think is quiteimportant to the podcast. So I'm not going to do
it until perhaps there's a chance for those guysto come back. Even people who are here in China,
which is the majority I would say of Season 2,you’re still not in your normal routines. Your
(13:55):
mind is still completely off-kilter. And so, Iwant to give it a chance for people to start to
get back to whatever the new normal becomes. Sothat the virus doesn't infect, to use the word,
the entire season. I think, of course, therewill be some references to before and after
(14:16):
coronavirus, because I think that's going to bejust what's going to happen. There's definitely
going to be a difference of lifestyle. But ifI started to record now, it would just be all
about it. So I have no choice but to have a bit ofa pause. And, you know what? Some people in Season
2 will not come back to China, and so I have toswitch those guys out. And there are other people
whose circumstances have changed and they nolonger want to be in Season 2. The rule was that
(14:42):
you couldn't say a referral unless they'd alreadysaid yes to Season 2. But people are free to say
no at this point. The good news is that I havebeen busy during my coronavirus self-isolation
I’m waiting with bated breath. OF
(15:04):
end is that now I can edit down the podcasts anddo special compilation episodes of how everyone
answered those ten questions.JO: Okay.
OF (15:13):
So this is what I've been doing for the last two months. I've just compiled them into special
episodes on your favourite China-related fact, oron your favourite place to hang out, and each of
them really work well as a compilation episode.JO: Yeah, I never thought about that.
I hadn’t thought about it either, to the extent that I thought oh I'm going to sit down
(15:36):
and actually do it, because who has the time todo that? Well, actually I did have the time. And
I’ve really enjoyed doing that because it'snice to hear all the different voices of the
season together in one episode. And it sort of,at the same time, makes me feel about these thirty
people, even though they're so different and somehave never even met each other, they all belong
(16:00):
together. So I think without these compilationsthey all stand alone, and I think with these
compilations they now form something which is moreone unit. Which I've really enjoyed. So I have ten
episodes now which I will release every two weeks.JO: Oh wow, yeah.
So that means I've got some content which I can drip out in the next twenty weeks,
(16:21):
which hopefully will give me sometime to, towards the end, start to
record Season 2. So at the end of that process,hopefully, I'll be ready to release Season 2.
JO (16:32):
Yeah, that's fantastic. And these are going to be, I think, great episodes for a number of
reasons. For all the reasons that you mentioned,but also because they have such potential to reach
out to people who aren't in Mosaic of China rightnow. Like, if on my feed something came up that
said “Thirty People's Answers to the Best Placeto Hang Out in Shanghai” I want to know the best
(16:54):
places to hang out in Shanghai. Favourite factsabout China, I want to know all these facts. Like,
this has great outreach potential.OF: I agree. And also, like,
when it comes to engaging the people who arein those WeChat groups, who have been sitting
there quite quietly for most to the time thanksfor me bullying them, this allows me to say,
(17:14):
“OK, it’s going to be the episode on yourfavourite China fact. Now's the time for you
guys to share your favourite China fact.”JO: This is such a brilliant idea. It's
almost like you had this planned from the verybeginning. It's such a serendipitous thing to do.
OF (17:27):
Yeah. This is like, you know people talk about “the virus has allowed me to be more creative and
to look things in different angles”, and I thinkthat's kind of what was inspiring me to do this.
And I’m especially proud of the KTV answerbecause I even went and got the music that
they said, and have put it on the bed of whatthey're saying. However I can't release it.
JO (17:51):
Copyright OF
made the episode, so if somebody wants it, thenthey can email me and I'll share it privately,
but I can't publicise that one.JO: Excellent. Well I’m very
much looking forward to all of that. I want these
episodes, I want these compilationsOF: Well I love what you do. I love
how engaged you've been with my project and howhelpful, not just you actually, there have been
(18:13):
other people who have been also as generous, butyou in particular have been so kind to always give
me an answer and to have reached out and helped.And so I really appreciate that and I wanted to
make sure that your mark is also in this Season.JO: Well I’m very happy to do it, and I think
that there's real value in helping out otherpeople as well. There are so many people in this
day and age, everyone's got a podcast, right?But not everyone's doing it well, and so I’m
(18:36):
happy to help out where I can when people aremaking good content that I enjoy listening to.
OF (18:41):
Well, the same goes for you, and let's end this podcast on this tone of mutual appreciation.
JO (18:46):
Oh I can hear the background music coming in now. The episode’s almost over.
OF (18:49):
Thank you Josh, I'll make sure that that is exactly what we do, and it'll sound so smooth
that you'll think I’m a pro.JO: I have every confidence.
[Outro]OF: Well if you want an example
of what I meant when I said I was afraid forfuture guests being too knowing about the podcast,
listen no further than that ending. Thank youagain to Josh for giving up his time and his
(19:13):
apartment for this interview. I should mentionthat he also gave up a glass of Sichuan pepper
infused rum, which started to have its effectduring the interview. So apologies if I sounded
more slurred and giggly than usual. That wasme experiencing Josh’s interview technique
right there. Just a reminder, if you're a fanof Mandarin please check out his MSG Mandarin
Slang Guide podcast. He also has a really engagedgroup of fans on WeChat, which is a lot of fun to
(19:38):
be in. I posted some photos from the conversationon my WeChat group, of course. Please add me there
on Oscar10877 and I'll include you there. Or youcan just follow @mosaicofchina on Instagram or
Facebook. Only one correction to make, itwas about Desert Island Discs, the British
radio show. It was actually first broadcastin 1942, which makes it not thirty or forty,
(20:00):
but eighty years old. So I'm looking forwardto Mosaic of China also being around that long,
it will be the year 2100, and I’ll make sure thatthis podcast is automatically implanted into your
brain. I did all my other “thank you”s at the endof Octo’s episode last week. So all that remains
for me to say is that I will see you in two weekstime for the first of the compilation episodes,
(20:21):
which will be on the subject of favouritetravel destinations within China. See you then.
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