September 15, 2022 • 43 mins
Bringing together Dan Shevock, Jon Rudy, and Tyné Angela Freeman, this is a reflective episode about the first three years of this podcast. Exploring notions of story, spirituality, theoretical framework, and the notion of a lived walk, this is a slow, expansive, and reflective move through the first three years of podcasting. Join our celebration!
The Music & Peacebuilding Podcast is hosted by Kevin Shorner-Johnson at Elizabethtown College. Join our professional development network at www.musicpeacebuilding.com - thinking deeply we reclaim space for connection and care.
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Kevin Shorner-Johnson (00:02):
You are listening to season three of the
music and peacebuilding podcast,a professional development
network at musicpeacebuilding.com Exploring
intersections of peacebuilding,sacredness, community,
creativity and imaginationthrough research and story.
10,000 episodes, as I thoughtabout how to mark and celebrate
(00:26):
this moment, I reached out tothree dear friends and former
guest, Dan Shevock, John Rudyand Tyne Angela Freeman. Because
the best celebrations are heldin the gift of relationship.
This is a slow and meanderingconversation held by the
wonderful night sounds ofcicadas outside of Dan Shevock's
(00:46):
window, each of theseconversation partners has moved
me on the learning and spiritualjourney that has accompanied me
on this music and peacebuildingproject, I hope you will join
the celebration with me.
I'll open and then I need to getout of the way. You know, as I
(01:07):
as we were preparing thispodcast for our listeners, I
would say that, you know, I wascentering around the three
themes, which I really startedbuilding as a theoretical
framework before I launched it,which is mutuality agency and
imagination. And I think whatyou know, when you build a
theoretical framework, yousometimes you wonder if you're
just full of it, and if it'sjust, it's not going to hold and
(01:30):
I think one of the things I waswriting to in the blog was, oh,
my gosh, this framework held insome ways, and but there were
also some ways in which someinterviewees pushed me beyond
the framework, which wasbeautiful, too, as well. And I
think each each of you can speakto the theory for mutuality,
agency and imagination.
Jon Rudy (01:53):
So, as I was reading through your reflections, it is,
to some degree, verytheoretical, but there's these
gems in there of practice. Andthe one that stuck out to me
was, when you took your childrento an interview, and you said,
Well, I'm trying to, like, likethis about their agency to in an
(02:13):
interview, are there other waysin which what you've been
working with and learning havereally impacted actions.
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (02:26):
I was trying to build a peacebuilding
frame from an Anabaptistframework, and trying to live
into that tradition. And one ofthe characteristics of a good
Anabaptist is that they're veryskeptical of people like me,
like academics, and skeptical ofpeople who like to build grand
theories. And but but I thinkone of the things that I admire
(02:47):
about that is that it really isabout learning about the lived
walk in the world. And I think Ipicked that up when I did a
research study and inHarrisburg, at a at an
Anabaptist church there incentral Harrisburg, a
multiracial congregation. Andevery single interview, talked
(03:11):
about, like walking with God orwalking, you know, walking was
the metaphor. And I think Ileaned into that, about like,
well, maybe scholarship is maybegood scholarship in this
framework is asking people abouttheir walks in the world, and
(03:32):
asking, asking them about like,what they've been dreaming
about, and what they're curiousabout and what they're doing
that but asking about the walk.
And I think that often, one ofthe things that can wear us down
sometimes as scholars and Ithink peace in particular is
really guilty of this rightpeace can peace can be really so
theoretical, that you can'tbring it back down from the sky
(03:53):
to figure out what to do at 8amon Monday morning. And how do
you bring peace down to the dayto day in the localized such
that it, anybody can have theagency to walk the walk of
peace.
Dan Shevock (04:09):
That's beautiful.
And I actually really liked thatwe do this on a podcast because
not only is this like, like mypapers, which can be a tool that
can be used in a classroom,right? Usually guided by some
professional, but this can beyou know, from the roots up, you
know, a high school student whois interested in becoming a
teacher or a music teacher whohasn't been in a classroom for
(04:31):
20 years, can stumble on one ofthese podcasts right you know.
You know, and learn a little bitabout altruism or yoga and
mindfulness, right. World Musicdrumming and peacebuilding are
the Anabaptist values as he saidbefore, you know, that's one of
the beauties I think is...
(04:55):
podcasts in 2022. Right? Are away to be at the root, right to
avoid the whole the walls of theivory tower.
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (05:09):
I think that that's one of the things
that I cherish so much inworking on that book chapter
with you and Martha Gonzalez. Sojust as segue for listeners is
that and one of the beautifuloutcomes of this podcast is that
Dan and Martha Gonzalez and Iconnected and Martha has been on
a podcast interview and Dan'sbeen on interview and we decided
(05:31):
to write a book chapter which isnow going to be published by
Oxford University Press. Andit's on Care ethics. And what I
learned from the book that Danshared us with us on post
modernism grassroots postmodernism was that there's a
violence to abstractionsometimes. And sometimes we can
(05:54):
we can wield abstractions as akind of weapon to objectify the
world. And I think that thelived walk sometimes moves
against this this desire to turneverything into an object.
Unknown (06:10):
Yeah, that's a such a powerful book for me to write
Madhu Suri Prakash and GustavoEsteva, thats in its second
printing.
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (06:23):
Our conversation returned me to this
episode The Sonia de los Santos,and memories of my pre pandemic
children running to the oncampus recording studio to meet
their musical hero. Listen toexcerpts across this clip.
Child1 (06:39):
How did you learn music?
Sonia de los Santos (06:43):
Well, I grew up in a very musical house
because my, my mum loves tosing. So since I was very young,
around your age, maybe evenyounger, I remember listening to
my mother sing in the house allthe time. You know, while we
cooked while we cleaned
Child2 (07:03):
How do you decide that you wanted to make music for
kids?
Sonia de los Santos (07:09):
Great question. I didn't know I wanted
to make music for kids. But thenwhen I got to New York, I was
doing different things. Iactually wanted to do musical
theater.
Unknown (07:22):
So are you inspired by Celia Cruz?
Sonia de los Santos (07:27):
I am inspired by Celia Cruz, of
course, actually, on my firstalbum Mi Viaje I have a song
called Burundanga. And, and Ilearned still Yeah, didn't.
Okay.
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (07:45):
We're huge fans of the music, right?
Sonia de los Santos (07:47):
Thank you for listening to my song.
Unknown (07:50):
Like every time we go into the car, Joel's like, let's
listen to Sonia de los Santos.
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (07:55):
Yeah, that reminds me of like a
moment. It was. It was after I'dstarted meeting with John about
peacebuilding. And I was I washaving lunch with my good
(08:15):
friend, Richard Newton, who wasa professor of Religious Studies
at Etown. And I think that inthe midst of that conversation,
I was telling him about where Ithought I wanted to go and how I
wasn't being fulfilled by myprior scholarship. And I really
want to go this next place. Andone of the comments out of that
lunch was, well, if you reallybelieve in this mutuality,
(08:35):
stuff, you probably shouldn't doit. And I think that comment,
told me like, yeah, that thatneeds to cut so deep, that it's
not just me as a white maleacademic writing in my own
little silo about the world. But... and there are some people
(08:57):
who do that, and they do itbeautifully. And I don't want to
hold back from that, but, butmaybe my space or my walk in
this world is, is entering thosespaces where you enter the
deepest sense of mutuality. Ithink that this this work of
decentering is really important,this beautiful work of like
(09:17):
moving into spaces and trying todecenter ourselves and build
beautiful spaces where the bestin the other can be brought out.
That's that was
Unknown (09:28):
What a down to earth way to tell you that to almost
like, like, like you how youtalk to a family member. You
know, you don't hear a lot ofthat professional spaces where
people are truly honest withyou.
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (09:44):
I really appreciate the move to public
scholarship because I think thatone of the violences sometimes
of scholarship is thesegregation of scholarship away
from the world.
Being in the world, Dan, Johnand I continued to speak of
mutuality and indigenousrelationality and how texts like
(10:06):
Robin wall Kimmerer's BraidingSweetgrass have inspired us, in
a shared love of trees, RobinWall Kimmerer writes, If one
tree fruits, the all fruit,there are no soloists, not one
tree in a grove, but the wholeGrove, not one Grove in the
forest, but every Grove allacross the county and all across
(10:29):
the state. The trees act not asindividuals, but somehow as a
collective, exactly how they dothis we don't yet know. But what
we see is the Power of unity,what happens to one happens to
us all, we can starve togetheror feast together, all
flourishing is mutual.
(10:53):
I, I wish peacebuilding wouldtalk about ecological stress,
and conflict. And you know, wetalk about conflict as being
healthy, and it can bedestructive. And I think ecology
knows that stress causes healthychange, stress causes
destructive change. But I'mhoping that we can move past
(11:14):
this idea that all this stuff issegregated, and there's a
humanness that's well above therest of the world. And then
there's this other animal worldthat's connected.
Tyné (11:25):
Yeah, I really liked thinking about just our
connectivity, in general aswell. And it kind of reminds me
of what you wrote in thereflections Kevin about the bird
who was able to empathize withthe trees such that they merged
together. I think, sometimes inin some of my research and
writing, I've thought a lotabout place, location, and how
(11:50):
particular localities can holdmemories I've written about like
trees that hold memories ofthings that have happened, near
them or to them. And even likethe ground we walk on the way it
can hold memories of what hashappened and the events that
have transpired.
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (12:10):
The most popular podcast of this entire
series has been the episode onIndian Odissi style dance was
Sreyashi Dey. In that episode, Iremember how deeply I was moved,
as I read an excerpt from theMahabharata, in the context of
dance
Sreyashi Dey (12:27):
and those who are left behind and their states of
mind and what what they would gothrough.
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (12:37):
Many stories in the Mahabharata speak
of the futility of violence,ahimsa, non cruelty and a deep
sense of loving care. One dialogbetween Indra and a parrot that
wilts away in a dying treespeaks to the conflict between
logical rationality, and anethic of care that is so
(13:00):
committed, and so loving, thatit appears to be irrational. In
this dialogue, the parrotreplies to Indra. I was born in
this tree and have lived hereall my life, I have acquired the
character I have, and become whoI am while living here. This
(13:21):
tree has camouflaged me fromhunters and has nourished me
with its fruit when it wascapable, it's supported my life
like a child. I cannot leave itnow. I follow the path of Andre
Shantsia??, or of non cruelty.
And so I cannot abandon thosewho have been loyal or devoted.
(13:43):
Why are you trying to weaken mybond with the tree by
sympathizing with me when suchbonding is the greatest virtue?
Or put another way? Why are youcalling me to rationally
disconnect and save myself whenI choose to enter pain so I
(14:04):
might love more deeply. Ourethics of care make us
vulnerable to pain, but may beworth it. Because our choice to
care may be a choice to becomemore fully human. And our choice
to care about caring may be achoice of peace.
(14:29):
Tyne, I think I'd like to speakto our mutual love of time and
why time matters. You know, so Iso your writing opens up this
this layering of time where aprotagonist can see previous
ancestors, you know, walkingalong the Underground Railroad
(14:50):
and and it changes the way theprotagonist views the world and
it changes her movement towardforgiveness that she changes the
way and also the way in whichtrauma exists across time. I'm
constantly thinking about time,and constantly thinking about
(15:11):
this idea of what kind ofresonance do we leave in the
world? And how do we enter theflow of time? And I think that
tradition to thinking aboutancestors is really enlivening.
And, and it's filled withgratitude to for everything that
brings me here. And I think youyou talk about that, too.
(15:36):
Because I think that when weorient ourselves to time, and
the, the mystery and magic oftime, that it changes the way we
are in the world.
Tyné (15:46):
Yeah, I agree. I agree. I think just like that awareness
that we exist. In a continuum,basically, like we are, we are
part of something that's beenunfolding will been unfolding
and will continue unfolding.
part of something that's greaterthan ourselves, and that's
layered, I like the word thatyou used resonance. I think our
actions they echo across time,and just the more aware we are
(16:10):
of that which comes before usand that which is going to
follow, the more we can operatein our current moment, with, I
would say, wisdom andsensitivity.
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (16:21):
Tyne Angela Freeman's book, the sky
is deeper than the sea has movedme deeply towards imagination of
trauma, forgiveness, andtranscendent hope across the
echoes of time. From guest MaryCohen, I imagined time as a
canvas where we constructimaginations of possible selves.
(16:45):
For Martha Gonzalez Juliet Hessand Brent Talbot, I imagine that
we may cast time to new forms,for new voices speeds and
liberatory. Agency. Mywonderment with physics, quantum
gravity, and the magic of time,teaches me how the flow of time
(17:05):
as a human construction, onethat might be interrupted,
rebuilt, and experienced in theechoes of generations.
Unknown (17:15):
[music - Tyne Angela Freeman]
Music (17:18):
[music - Tyne Angela Freeman]
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (17:53):
And John, I think some of my time with you
to help me realize that. Youknow, we're constantly building
stories. And and a lot of timesthe conflict drivers in this
world are the stories that webuild about a grievance or about
a harm. We can build differentstories based on different
(18:15):
timescales, I can start onestory that starts at this year
in here, and then if I but if Iback the story up 50 years, the
cause and effect of that storychanges completely, and the
conflict analysis, right of thatmoment changes. And I think
about how much how importantholding a curiosity about the
mystery of time remainsimportant to make sure that
(18:37):
conflict doesn't become sointractable that you can't move
out of it.
Unknown (18:42):
And then thinking about, about other kinds of
cosmologies of, you know,circular or secular time, and
the fact that we actually, welive it in it's the most real
kind of time, at least in theNorthern Hemisphere and the
Southern Hemisphere. It's, it'sthe most like circular time is
(19:04):
the most in your face time thereis. Those two are always in
tension in my head. So I have noinsights it gets it gets worse
and more muddled the older Iget.
Never has been more beautiful,beautiful mud. Right. And this
(19:28):
whole podcast, right, it'sbeautiful mud where we're
drawing together, you know, Imean, you have ideas of
peacebuilding, but you also haveecology and racism and
indigenous knowledges and somany things that like to be
binned.
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (19:45):
There's so many conversations, I guess,
that are muddy if I use thatmetaphor. We're often afraid to
sit for those conversations. AndI think I I was really inspired
by by Krista Tippett and so manyother people pioneers of radio
and well, even Fred Rogers,right? And people who are
willing to, to model curiosityand just that reflection, like
(20:09):
when you enter a space ofcuriosity, there's no
conversation, that's scaryanymore. Every conversation you
can enter with a, with a sensethat it's going to be okay. And
and you're going to talk yourway through the scariest
conversation. Because if youstay curious, I think that
that's another one
Dan Shevock (20:28):
if you're okay with being wrong, too. Right. So if
you're so sure that if you'rewrong, it's going to be the end
of the world.
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (20:36):
And modeling when you are wrong, I
think that's the that's been theother thing of vulnerability in
this podcasting is, you know,after you've recorded the
interview, and you're going backand you're editing it, and you
listen, you're like, oh, mygosh, did I say that? And then
you have to make the decision.
Do I keep it in? Or do I cut itout? And I remember, there was
a, there was a quote, in Tyne'spodcast, where I kind of
(20:57):
identified a place where my ownlike white bias was there. And I
had that moment, I was like, Ithink I'm going to leave this
in. And I'm going to build anarration right after saying why
this is wrong. Yeah, I rememberI was I was talking about slaves
along the, along the UndergroundRailroad, and I referred to them
(21:23):
as.... something regarding tothe penal system, I remember
like how, how [fugitive] deeplyingrained this language is and
how problematic it is, and howimportant it is sometimes to
leave the vulnerable parts andthe parts that are wrong.
Tyné (21:41):
I remember that moment.
And I really appreciated the waythat you approached it. And were
willing to embrace thevulnerability or even just the
complexity of that. I think,willing to being willing to
embrace the muddiness in generalis really important, especially
now more than ever, I think it'sgetting more and more difficult
(22:02):
to have conversations withouteither side are both getting
offended. Yeah, and I thinkthere's a lot of binary thinking
and extremism. So I agree thatvulnerability and curiosity are
definitely essential to beingable to navigate conversation
and actually build bridges andunderstand each other more. I
(22:27):
just remember one of thepodcasts talked about binaries
and how it can just be veryconstraining and even violent to
impose binaries.
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (22:38):
You that that language of binaries, I
mean, I would say a lot of thatI stole from Jon, my time with
him, but and realizing thatbinaries can't live in story.
Like story doesn't allowbinaries really to exist. Well,
good story doesn't allowbinaries to exist. Because story
is always far more complex thanthat. And I think, Jon, from
(22:58):
you, I learned that, you know,one of the early markers of a
move towards conflict is, iswhen things start to start to
codify into con into binaries.
It's either this or it's this.
At the end of the conversation,Jon Rudy told a story of his
time in Afghanistan. I splicedthat story here, to connect to
(23:20):
our ideas about story, and toprepare our conversation for a
move toward love as a substratebetween ones and zeros.
Unknown (23:28):
You really, I think, put your finger on something
that encompasses both whatKevin's been talking about
spirituality. about a decadeago, I was working for Oxfam in
Afghanistan. And in one night,the fighting started, you know,
(23:49):
just a kilometer away. And hereI am working at peace building
in the middle of this war zone.
And, you know, just the RPGsgoing off and the constant back
and forth of fighting. And Ithought, I'm useless here. What
am I doing, I'm supposed to bebuilding peace. And there's this
kinetic stuff going on justright outside. And I decided I
(24:12):
would open my heart. I laid inbed in terror, and decided I was
going to open my heart to thatsoundscape. And think about the
soldiers on each side who wereshooting at each other. And I
fell asleep in the middle ofthat. And, and the next morning,
as as the TV show, the localnews was kind of covering the
(24:39):
mopping up exercise. You know,in the end, the Afghan soldiers
were shooting up at the buildingtrying to kill the Taliban.
There was a whole flock of dovesthat flew right in front of it.
Right in front of the camera. Ijust thought, Oh, okay. Well, I
mean, so, so you know, the Ithink this This idea of of
(24:59):
opening heart it is notmetaphorical it is into
something we can we can do andwith our body and just and just
imagine I'm opening my heart tothis, this tough conversation or
this and to do that outside tooI just think there's the key and
(25:21):
that's what I would labelspirituality is it's heart
opening, open heartedundefended, I don't know where
that that came from
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (25:32):
Wow our fact that I you know I did have
moments when I started thepodcast and I did this really
niche name, music andpeacebuilding. And I, you know,
one of the first questions Ihave to myself is, do I think it
(25:57):
do, I think this is gonna lastlike maybe I'll get like one
good season out of it. But I'mnot sure it can go any farther
than that. And I have beenreally inspired by the ways in
which it just keeps openingitself up. Also the ways in
which a dialogue about music soeasily moves to this idea of
(26:19):
peacebuilding. And it also helpsto cut through the theory of
peacebuilding is, you know,peace building theory, if you
layer theory upon theory,peacebuilding can start to
become really dry. And I've beenreally curious, just in these
last episodes, so we're gettingready to put out a new one on
Korean samul nori drumming. WhatI'm learning from that episode
(26:39):
right now is about what happenswhen drumming genre goes global.
And when the other who'sdistanced like a continent away,
becomes interested enough thatthey want to take up this this
art form. And then what happensin relationships across those,
(27:01):
you know, so those kinds ofquestions really open up and I
think they're fascinating.
Jon Rudy (27:06):
But Kevin, isn't any wonder that it's unfolded like a
flower when you base it on? Kindof these, this bedrock of
mutuality, agency andimagination. I mean, it's us,
unfortunately, you set yourselfup for a lifetime of podcasts,
because, because you startedwith something so solid, and
(27:26):
yet. I was as I was thinkingabout this, I was thinking about
how I know I'm my own worstreference point in the world,
you know, and so I can neverkind of predict where I am. And
I need the feedback. I need. Ineed.
Unknown (27:45):
Yeah, if the podcast had ended after one season,
would you felt any less aboutwhat you had produced?
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (27:54):
Yeah, I don't. The first season was
really rich. I can't I go back.
And I look and I think how inthe world did I do 20 episodes
in that first season? Becauseit's
Unknown (28:03):
even if you had a first season there was randomly taken
from all the episodes that youdid, right? If you only had one,
that's still be enough. It'dstill be out there.
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (28:15):
Yeah, the first season was just trying to
explore a lot of my best friendsand asking this question about
like, what you're trying to livein so that Krista Tippett ethic
of what happens when you readsomebody's work so deeply, that
you might that the interviewitself becomes a gift, you open
(28:36):
a space where you can reflectback to that person and honor
that person's work. And thatthat first season became that
the second season right reallyopened up about compassionate
music teaching, especially withKarin Hendricks work and getting
to go down the road ofinterviewing the people that she
interviewed. And then the thirdseason has just been the road of
(28:56):
ethnomusicology, which has beenreally fun to stay curious about
how we interact between theOther and ourselves.
Tyné (29:10):
What are you looking forward to with the podcast?
Like do you see sort of themedriven seasons, continuing sort
of shaping each season around adifferent theme going forward?
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (29:21):
So I have I think I have three episodes
left in the season. I've got theepisode recorded on samul nori
drumming Korean, and I've got anepisode with a shakuhachi player
in the Japanese tradition, andthen Olivier, who works with the
Min on Min Peace Institute inTokyo. And so kind of closing
(29:45):
there. And then I'm reallylooking forward to taking a
break. And then I wrote a grantto maybe a year and a half start
down the social psychology roadand I think I have a real
curiosity to start interviewingsome social psychologists to
(30:06):
live into the empiricalgrounding that would accompany
all the stories have been built.
You know, I think that the thediscoveries in neuroscience
right now are fascinating. And,and also that this idea about
identity and this really bigword belonging right now that's
everywhere. What does this wordbelonging mean? And when is it
(30:27):
problematic? When is it good?
There's so many of thosequestions to me that are really
fascinating. So I think that'swhat I'm looking forward to the
future, the podcast and also thequestion of can I build a book
from this as the other question,in about a year and a half that
may come to fruition?
Tyné (30:47):
I was wondering that I think it would lend itself
really well to that. Justexploring other media to kind of
convey these stories and ideas.
Yeah.
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (30:55):
Yeah, I think that that, that's my other
big aha moment is that I thinkin the second season, I started
realizing like, Oh, my goodness,these really work for online
education, Master musiceducation program. And I think I
first experienced that when Istarted just plugging in a few
podcasts into in some onlinemodules for the master students.
(31:17):
And all of a sudden, I watchedthe discussions go from kind of
here to here as far as depth andthe amount of investment that
people put into this onlinediscussion. And I started asking
myself questions like, Why isthis happening? And I think my
theory is that when we learn toread really scholarly academic
(31:38):
literature, it's, it's good andit stimulates our thoughts. And
it's important, but when weaccompany that literature with
story where we actually get tohear the voice of the author and
hear what moves them, whatmotivates them, and what they're
afraid of, and those things,things come alive, and the
(31:58):
discussions that we have are somuch richer. I've been really
fascinated about this now from apedagogical point about how
podcasts might be a place forlearning.
I think I have made every audioediting mistake possible made
pronunciation mistakes andmistakes of my bias. I embrace
(32:20):
the modeling of mistakes. AndI'm proud of conversations that
moved beyond the surface withethical care. I love the process
of podcasting. From reading tointerviews, narrations, and
mixing and editing. I love everypart of the process. I have
learned to read with curiositycenter, my listening, be
(32:43):
sensitive to language, honormagical inflections of voice and
marvel at the ways we tell ourstories.
The other thing that Iexperienced the the podcast on
on, Oliver Mtukudzi fromZimbabwe. I had to take the
(33:05):
podcast down because I couldn't.
I wasn't sure about thecopyrights of his songs. And
because his songs are owned byfive different record companies.
And I just didn't. But what Ilearned from Oliver Mtukudzi was
that he had this beautiful wayin Zimbabwe in dealing with a
really oppressive dictator. Andhe never sang directly at it.
Like he would always singcircular around the issue using
(33:28):
metaphor after metaphor. Youthought that he was singing
about your grandmother, butactually who's the same time he
was singing about the dictator?
And I, I thought a lot about,about your work about Oliver
Mtukudzi's work to kind ofencircle something. And maybe
(33:51):
also it challenges ourEurocentric notion that we need
to just go straight for it. Weneed to find our objective and
go straight there when actuallysometimes it's it's better to
work to move in circular motionsin this world.
Tyné (34:06):
Yeah, I think. Yeah, I guess it's just discerning what
the situation demands. Like, Idefinitely think one of the
beauties of art is being able tobring people into conversation
with topics that otherwise theymight not have been willing to
engage with. I think it can bemore palatable and approachable
(34:30):
when it's expressed in metaphor,when it's expressed in poetry.
So I agree with that. I think. Ithink just different people and
different artists, I guess, whenwe're speaking of music have
different approaches. So yeah, Ithink and even when you say in
circle, it makes me think abouttime and that whole circular
notions. So just try to think ofhow that can connect. I think
(34:53):
it's important to confrontthings in some cases. But in
other cases, you kind of have tojust read the situation or read
the room and understand whoyou're speaking or singing to,
and how they're going to best,what they're going to be most
receptive to.
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (35:16):
One of the things I remember about your
podcast, Dan that was so muchfun. We'd recorded the podcast,
I'd gone through and spliced it.
And I'm always asking myself,like, how do we make this story
come alive? And I felt like whenI interspersed your interview
with these ecological sounds inthe midst of it, like the whole
interview changed, and like,came alive. And when we got the,
(35:36):
the excerpts from GordonHempton, you know, I couldn't
believe I got permission fromGordon Hempton, who's an
acoustic ecologist who's beeninterviewed by Krista Tippett.
But we've got permission fromGordon Hempton to intersperse
some of his sound archive inthere, it was like you were
speaking your scholarship, andthen the world was sounding back
(35:57):
to it, that we created kind ofthat soundscape in that podcast.
Unknown (36:03):
What I liked you about that, that's, that's how the
inside of my brain works. Ispent a lot of time just sitting
outside and listening. You know,so when I think about things, as
a music education philosopher, Iguess that's what I'm paid to
do. But how much about things inwriting? But
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (36:24):
But how much more alive does philosophy
become when it leaves the pageand enters sound?
Unknown (36:30):
That's right. I don't think like going back to like,
you know, Plato. I don't thinkwe I don't think it was a good
thing to be stuck in the cave,right. Supposed to be outside.
You know, with all the all thisholistic soundscape that Life
provides.
Tyné (36:46):
Yeah, I'm what you were saying earlier, I think you're
sharing Dan just about thecultivating an awareness of the
sounds that surround us and howthat can be very overwhelming
when we when we open our minds,and I guess our hearts to what
all these sounds mean, and thesuffering behind it. Do you
(37:09):
think that I think you're right,it's easier to close your eyes
than it is close your ears? Howdo you? How do you navigate that
the fact that it can beoverwhelming I'm even thinking
about technology and just theinflux or bombardment of
information that we receive onthe daily just being alive in
general. What that means, like,how do you avoid feeling
(37:32):
overwhelmed? Do you find certainsounds cathartic? Like how do
you navigate that?
Unknown (37:37):
Yes, it's paradoxical, right? Because it's both
knowledge of the trauma that weas a species are inflicting upon
one another, and our brothersand sisters on this planet. And,
but at the same time, it's alsohealing. Right? I mean, you
(38:00):
know, there's a whole like fieldaround ecological therapy that
has arisen in the last 40 years.
So it's both things at the sametime, right. And it's, there's
so many paradoxes, right?
Because like we listen, if youwere to analyze, harmonically, a
soundscape, you would come upwith something far more atonal
(38:21):
than than Schoenberg. Right.
But, you know, kind of morepleasant at the same time,
right. So it's, yeah, I'd so Idon't know I can't get my head
around it entirely how it worksout, other than to use the word
paradox with art, which ParkerPalmer uses extensively in
spirituality is paradox. And sothat makes me think that music
(38:46):
education should be first aspiritual adventure, recognizing
how all musics emerge frommother Earth
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (38:55):
as you said that word spiritual limits.
So that's some one thing I wantto just weigh in on opening up
to John, for one last comment,close. But I think one of the
things I admire about all threeof you is that all three of you
are moving in different ways inthe world from a, from a
spiritual or religious place andthe tradition. And I think
(39:17):
that's another thing too, that Iwas trying to open up both with
the master's program and withthe podcast is not being afraid
of that language. And also, notonly not being afraid of the
spiritual and religiouslanguage, but actually embracing
it because I think, often wewere really scared about moving
into the secular spaces andbringing that part of ourselves
(39:40):
with us. But yet, that part ofourselves carries some of the
deepest meanings that we haveand why we do what we do and
what we care about and how wecare. And I think I'm always
trying to build spaces wherepeople can feel alive enough and
curious enough to hold on tothat language and embrace it.
But also still make the languageopen enough that it embraces a
(40:04):
humanist perspective or aBuddhist perspective or Hindu
perspective. But also but onethat allows the most important
parts of ourselves to enterthrough song or through words
and story.
As we close, I reflect on whatthis project has meant as a
(40:25):
practice of the most importantparts of ourselves. With each
guest, I have learned to listenmore deeply, to open windows of
limited understandings, and toenter the joy of celebrating
each other. When I first cameacross John O'Donohue's book of
blessings I knew I had generouspoetry, words expansive enough
(40:48):
for religious and non religioustraditions, and an act of a
blessing as a foundationalembodiment of peacemaking. In
blessing, we hold our intention,a tension, and offer the best
for each other. In the languageof you, we direct our gaze. And
(41:11):
in using the language of we, wejoin hands to enter shared
experience of a gift, an excerptfrom O'Donohue's poem for
celebration.
Open your eyes and see the kind,whose hearts recognize you as
kin. Those whose kindnesswatchful and near encourages you
(41:35):
to live everything here. See thegifts the years have given
things your effort could neverearn the health to enjoy what
you want to be, and the mind tomirror mystery.
Thanks to my good friends, JonRudy Dan Shevock. And Tyne
(41:57):
Angela Freeman for the gift oftheir time with me and
constructing this episode. Afull reflection on the first
10,000 downloads is available onour blog and music
peacebuilding.com. And mydeepest thanks to each and every
guest across the first threeyears of this podcast, and to
(42:18):
you the listener for your time,your attention, and your
generous feedback that fuelsthis continued work. If you like
this podcast, please leave areview on iTunes so that others
may find this space. Thank youfor the generosity of your time.
This is the music andpeacebuilding podcast hosted by
(42:40):
Kevin Shorner-Johnson. AtElizabethtown College, we host a
master of music education withan emphasis in peacebuilding.
thinking deeply we reclaim spacefor connection and care. Join us
at music peacebuilding.com
You are listening to season three of the
music and peacebuilding podcast,a professional development
network at musicpeacebuilding.com Exploring
intersections of peacebuilding,sacredness, community,
creativity and imaginationthrough research and story.
10,000 episodes, as I thoughtabout how to mark and celebrate
(00:26):
this moment, I reached out tothree dear friends and former
guest, Dan Shevock, John Rudyand Tyne Angela Freeman. Because
the best celebrations are heldin the gift of relationship.
This is a slow and meanderingconversation held by the
wonderful night sounds ofcicadas outside of Dan Shevock's
(00:46):
window, each of theseconversation partners has moved
me on the learning and spiritualjourney that has accompanied me
on this music and peacebuildingproject, I hope you will join
the celebration with me.
I'll open and then I need to getout of the way. You know, as I
(01:07):
as we were preparing thispodcast for our listeners, I
would say that, you know, I wascentering around the three
themes, which I really startedbuilding as a theoretical
framework before I launched it,which is mutuality agency and
imagination. And I think whatyou know, when you build a
theoretical framework, yousometimes you wonder if you're
just full of it, and if it'sjust, it's not going to hold and
(01:30):
I think one of the things I waswriting to in the blog was, oh,
my gosh, this framework held insome ways, and but there were
also some ways in which someinterviewees pushed me beyond
the framework, which wasbeautiful, too, as well. And I
think each each of you can speakto the theory for mutuality,
agency and imagination.
Jon Rudy (01:53):
So, as I was reading through your reflections, it is,
to some degree, verytheoretical, but there's these
gems in there of practice. Andthe one that stuck out to me
was, when you took your childrento an interview, and you said,
Well, I'm trying to, like, likethis about their agency to in an
(02:13):
interview, are there other waysin which what you've been
working with and learning havereally impacted actions.
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (02:26):
I was trying to build a peacebuilding
frame from an Anabaptistframework, and trying to live
into that tradition. And one ofthe characteristics of a good
Anabaptist is that they're veryskeptical of people like me,
like academics, and skeptical ofpeople who like to build grand
theories. And but but I thinkone of the things that I admire
(02:47):
about that is that it really isabout learning about the lived
walk in the world. And I think Ipicked that up when I did a
research study and inHarrisburg, at a at an
Anabaptist church there incentral Harrisburg, a
multiracial congregation. Andevery single interview, talked
(03:11):
about, like walking with God orwalking, you know, walking was
the metaphor. And I think Ileaned into that, about like,
well, maybe scholarship is maybegood scholarship in this
framework is asking people abouttheir walks in the world, and
(03:32):
asking, asking them about like,what they've been dreaming
about, and what they're curiousabout and what they're doing
that but asking about the walk.
And I think that often, one ofthe things that can wear us down
sometimes as scholars and Ithink peace in particular is
really guilty of this rightpeace can peace can be really so
theoretical, that you can'tbring it back down from the sky
(03:53):
to figure out what to do at 8amon Monday morning. And how do
you bring peace down to the dayto day in the localized such
that it, anybody can have theagency to walk the walk of
peace.
Dan Shevock (04:09):
That's beautiful.
And I actually really liked thatwe do this on a podcast because
not only is this like, like mypapers, which can be a tool that
can be used in a classroom,right? Usually guided by some
professional, but this can beyou know, from the roots up, you
know, a high school student whois interested in becoming a
teacher or a music teacher whohasn't been in a classroom for
(04:31):
20 years, can stumble on one ofthese podcasts right you know.
You know, and learn a little bitabout altruism or yoga and
mindfulness, right. World Musicdrumming and peacebuilding are
the Anabaptist values as he saidbefore, you know, that's one of
the beauties I think is...
(04:55):
podcasts in 2022. Right? Are away to be at the root, right to
avoid the whole the walls of theivory tower.
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (05:09):
I think that that's one of the things
that I cherish so much inworking on that book chapter
with you and Martha Gonzalez. Sojust as segue for listeners is
that and one of the beautifuloutcomes of this podcast is that
Dan and Martha Gonzalez and Iconnected and Martha has been on
a podcast interview and Dan'sbeen on interview and we decided
(05:31):
to write a book chapter which isnow going to be published by
Oxford University Press. Andit's on Care ethics. And what I
learned from the book that Danshared us with us on post
modernism grassroots postmodernism was that there's a
violence to abstractionsometimes. And sometimes we can
(05:54):
we can wield abstractions as akind of weapon to objectify the
world. And I think that thelived walk sometimes moves
against this this desire to turneverything into an object.
Unknown (06:10):
Yeah, that's a such a powerful book for me to write
Madhu Suri Prakash and GustavoEsteva, thats in its second
printing.
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (06:23):
Our conversation returned me to this
episode The Sonia de los Santos,and memories of my pre pandemic
children running to the oncampus recording studio to meet
their musical hero. Listen toexcerpts across this clip.
Child1 (06:39):
How did you learn music?
Sonia de los Santos (06:43):
Well, I grew up in a very musical house
because my, my mum loves tosing. So since I was very young,
around your age, maybe evenyounger, I remember listening to
my mother sing in the house allthe time. You know, while we
cooked while we cleaned
Child2 (07:03):
How do you decide that you wanted to make music for
kids?
Sonia de los Santos (07:09):
Great question. I didn't know I wanted
to make music for kids. But thenwhen I got to New York, I was
doing different things. Iactually wanted to do musical
theater.
Unknown (07:22):
So are you inspired by Celia Cruz?
Sonia de los Santos (07:27):
I am inspired by Celia Cruz, of
course, actually, on my firstalbum Mi Viaje I have a song
called Burundanga. And, and Ilearned still Yeah, didn't.
Okay.
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (07:45):
We're huge fans of the music, right?
Sonia de los Santos (07:47):
Thank you for listening to my song.
Unknown (07:50):
Like every time we go into the car, Joel's like, let's
listen to Sonia de los Santos.
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (07:55):
Yeah, that reminds me of like a
moment. It was. It was after I'dstarted meeting with John about
peacebuilding. And I was I washaving lunch with my good
(08:15):
friend, Richard Newton, who wasa professor of Religious Studies
at Etown. And I think that inthe midst of that conversation,
I was telling him about where Ithought I wanted to go and how I
wasn't being fulfilled by myprior scholarship. And I really
want to go this next place. Andone of the comments out of that
lunch was, well, if you reallybelieve in this mutuality,
(08:35):
stuff, you probably shouldn't doit. And I think that comment,
told me like, yeah, that thatneeds to cut so deep, that it's
not just me as a white maleacademic writing in my own
little silo about the world. But... and there are some people
(08:57):
who do that, and they do itbeautifully. And I don't want to
hold back from that, but, butmaybe my space or my walk in
this world is, is entering thosespaces where you enter the
deepest sense of mutuality. Ithink that this this work of
decentering is really important,this beautiful work of like
(09:17):
moving into spaces and trying todecenter ourselves and build
beautiful spaces where the bestin the other can be brought out.
That's that was
Unknown (09:28):
What a down to earth way to tell you that to almost
like, like, like you how youtalk to a family member. You
know, you don't hear a lot ofthat professional spaces where
people are truly honest withyou.
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (09:44):
I really appreciate the move to public
scholarship because I think thatone of the violences sometimes
of scholarship is thesegregation of scholarship away
from the world.
Being in the world, Dan, Johnand I continued to speak of
mutuality and indigenousrelationality and how texts like
(10:06):
Robin wall Kimmerer's BraidingSweetgrass have inspired us, in
a shared love of trees, RobinWall Kimmerer writes, If one
tree fruits, the all fruit,there are no soloists, not one
tree in a grove, but the wholeGrove, not one Grove in the
forest, but every Grove allacross the county and all across
(10:29):
the state. The trees act not asindividuals, but somehow as a
collective, exactly how they dothis we don't yet know. But what
we see is the Power of unity,what happens to one happens to
us all, we can starve togetheror feast together, all
flourishing is mutual.
(10:53):
I, I wish peacebuilding wouldtalk about ecological stress,
and conflict. And you know, wetalk about conflict as being
healthy, and it can bedestructive. And I think ecology
knows that stress causes healthychange, stress causes
destructive change. But I'mhoping that we can move past
(11:14):
this idea that all this stuff issegregated, and there's a
humanness that's well above therest of the world. And then
there's this other animal worldthat's connected.
Tyné (11:25):
Yeah, I really liked thinking about just our
connectivity, in general aswell. And it kind of reminds me
of what you wrote in thereflections Kevin about the bird
who was able to empathize withthe trees such that they merged
together. I think, sometimes inin some of my research and
writing, I've thought a lotabout place, location, and how
(11:50):
particular localities can holdmemories I've written about like
trees that hold memories ofthings that have happened, near
them or to them. And even likethe ground we walk on the way it
can hold memories of what hashappened and the events that
have transpired.
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (12:10):
The most popular podcast of this entire
series has been the episode onIndian Odissi style dance was
Sreyashi Dey. In that episode, Iremember how deeply I was moved,
as I read an excerpt from theMahabharata, in the context of
dance
Sreyashi Dey (12:27):
and those who are left behind and their states of
mind and what what they would gothrough.
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (12:37):
Many stories in the Mahabharata speak
of the futility of violence,ahimsa, non cruelty and a deep
sense of loving care. One dialogbetween Indra and a parrot that
wilts away in a dying treespeaks to the conflict between
logical rationality, and anethic of care that is so
(13:00):
committed, and so loving, thatit appears to be irrational. In
this dialogue, the parrotreplies to Indra. I was born in
this tree and have lived hereall my life, I have acquired the
character I have, and become whoI am while living here. This
(13:21):
tree has camouflaged me fromhunters and has nourished me
with its fruit when it wascapable, it's supported my life
like a child. I cannot leave itnow. I follow the path of Andre
Shantsia??, or of non cruelty.
And so I cannot abandon thosewho have been loyal or devoted.
(13:43):
Why are you trying to weaken mybond with the tree by
sympathizing with me when suchbonding is the greatest virtue?
Or put another way? Why are youcalling me to rationally
disconnect and save myself whenI choose to enter pain so I
(14:04):
might love more deeply. Ourethics of care make us
vulnerable to pain, but may beworth it. Because our choice to
care may be a choice to becomemore fully human. And our choice
to care about caring may be achoice of peace.
(14:29):
Tyne, I think I'd like to speakto our mutual love of time and
why time matters. You know, so Iso your writing opens up this
this layering of time where aprotagonist can see previous
ancestors, you know, walkingalong the Underground Railroad
(14:50):
and and it changes the way theprotagonist views the world and
it changes her movement towardforgiveness that she changes the
way and also the way in whichtrauma exists across time. I'm
constantly thinking about time,and constantly thinking about
(15:11):
this idea of what kind ofresonance do we leave in the
world? And how do we enter theflow of time? And I think that
tradition to thinking aboutancestors is really enlivening.
And, and it's filled withgratitude to for everything that
brings me here. And I think youyou talk about that, too.
(15:36):
Because I think that when weorient ourselves to time, and
the, the mystery and magic oftime, that it changes the way we
are in the world.
Tyné (15:46):
Yeah, I agree. I agree. I think just like that awareness
that we exist. In a continuum,basically, like we are, we are
part of something that's beenunfolding will been unfolding
and will continue unfolding.
part of something that's greaterthan ourselves, and that's
layered, I like the word thatyou used resonance. I think our
actions they echo across time,and just the more aware we are
(16:10):
of that which comes before usand that which is going to
follow, the more we can operatein our current moment, with, I
would say, wisdom andsensitivity.
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (16:21):
Tyne Angela Freeman's book, the sky
is deeper than the sea has movedme deeply towards imagination of
trauma, forgiveness, andtranscendent hope across the
echoes of time. From guest MaryCohen, I imagined time as a
canvas where we constructimaginations of possible selves.
(16:45):
For Martha Gonzalez Juliet Hessand Brent Talbot, I imagine that
we may cast time to new forms,for new voices speeds and
liberatory. Agency. Mywonderment with physics, quantum
gravity, and the magic of time,teaches me how the flow of time
(17:05):
as a human construction, onethat might be interrupted,
rebuilt, and experienced in theechoes of generations.
Unknown (17:15):
[music - Tyne Angela Freeman]
Music (17:18):
[music - Tyne Angela Freeman]
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (17:53):
And John, I think some of my time with you
to help me realize that. Youknow, we're constantly building
stories. And and a lot of timesthe conflict drivers in this
world are the stories that webuild about a grievance or about
a harm. We can build differentstories based on different
(18:15):
timescales, I can start onestory that starts at this year
in here, and then if I but if Iback the story up 50 years, the
cause and effect of that storychanges completely, and the
conflict analysis, right of thatmoment changes. And I think
about how much how importantholding a curiosity about the
mystery of time remainsimportant to make sure that
(18:37):
conflict doesn't become sointractable that you can't move
out of it.
Unknown (18:42):
And then thinking about, about other kinds of
cosmologies of, you know,circular or secular time, and
the fact that we actually, welive it in it's the most real
kind of time, at least in theNorthern Hemisphere and the
Southern Hemisphere. It's, it'sthe most like circular time is
(19:04):
the most in your face time thereis. Those two are always in
tension in my head. So I have noinsights it gets it gets worse
and more muddled the older Iget.
Never has been more beautiful,beautiful mud. Right. And this
(19:28):
whole podcast, right, it'sbeautiful mud where we're
drawing together, you know, Imean, you have ideas of
peacebuilding, but you also haveecology and racism and
indigenous knowledges and somany things that like to be
binned.
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (19:45):
There's so many conversations, I guess,
that are muddy if I use thatmetaphor. We're often afraid to
sit for those conversations. AndI think I I was really inspired
by by Krista Tippett and so manyother people pioneers of radio
and well, even Fred Rogers,right? And people who are
willing to, to model curiosityand just that reflection, like
(20:09):
when you enter a space ofcuriosity, there's no
conversation, that's scaryanymore. Every conversation you
can enter with a, with a sensethat it's going to be okay. And
and you're going to talk yourway through the scariest
conversation. Because if youstay curious, I think that
that's another one
Dan Shevock (20:28):
if you're okay with being wrong, too. Right. So if
you're so sure that if you'rewrong, it's going to be the end
of the world.
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (20:36):
And modeling when you are wrong, I
think that's the that's been theother thing of vulnerability in
this podcasting is, you know,after you've recorded the
interview, and you're going backand you're editing it, and you
listen, you're like, oh, mygosh, did I say that? And then
you have to make the decision.
Do I keep it in? Or do I cut itout? And I remember, there was
a, there was a quote, in Tyne'spodcast, where I kind of
(20:57):
identified a place where my ownlike white bias was there. And I
had that moment, I was like, Ithink I'm going to leave this
in. And I'm going to build anarration right after saying why
this is wrong. Yeah, I rememberI was I was talking about slaves
along the, along the UndergroundRailroad, and I referred to them
(21:23):
as.... something regarding tothe penal system, I remember
like how, how [fugitive] deeplyingrained this language is and
how problematic it is, and howimportant it is sometimes to
leave the vulnerable parts andthe parts that are wrong.
Tyné (21:41):
I remember that moment.
And I really appreciated the waythat you approached it. And were
willing to embrace thevulnerability or even just the
complexity of that. I think,willing to being willing to
embrace the muddiness in generalis really important, especially
now more than ever, I think it'sgetting more and more difficult
(22:02):
to have conversations withouteither side are both getting
offended. Yeah, and I thinkthere's a lot of binary thinking
and extremism. So I agree thatvulnerability and curiosity are
definitely essential to beingable to navigate conversation
and actually build bridges andunderstand each other more. I
(22:27):
just remember one of thepodcasts talked about binaries
and how it can just be veryconstraining and even violent to
impose binaries.
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (22:38):
You that that language of binaries, I
mean, I would say a lot of thatI stole from Jon, my time with
him, but and realizing thatbinaries can't live in story.
Like story doesn't allowbinaries really to exist. Well,
good story doesn't allowbinaries to exist. Because story
is always far more complex thanthat. And I think, Jon, from
(22:58):
you, I learned that, you know,one of the early markers of a
move towards conflict is, iswhen things start to start to
codify into con into binaries.
It's either this or it's this.
At the end of the conversation,Jon Rudy told a story of his
time in Afghanistan. I splicedthat story here, to connect to
(23:20):
our ideas about story, and toprepare our conversation for a
move toward love as a substratebetween ones and zeros.
Unknown (23:28):
You really, I think, put your finger on something
that encompasses both whatKevin's been talking about
spirituality. about a decadeago, I was working for Oxfam in
Afghanistan. And in one night,the fighting started, you know,
(23:49):
just a kilometer away. And hereI am working at peace building
in the middle of this war zone.
And, you know, just the RPGsgoing off and the constant back
and forth of fighting. And Ithought, I'm useless here. What
am I doing, I'm supposed to bebuilding peace. And there's this
kinetic stuff going on justright outside. And I decided I
(24:12):
would open my heart. I laid inbed in terror, and decided I was
going to open my heart to thatsoundscape. And think about the
soldiers on each side who wereshooting at each other. And I
fell asleep in the middle ofthat. And, and the next morning,
as as the TV show, the localnews was kind of covering the
(24:39):
mopping up exercise. You know,in the end, the Afghan soldiers
were shooting up at the buildingtrying to kill the Taliban.
There was a whole flock of dovesthat flew right in front of it.
Right in front of the camera. Ijust thought, Oh, okay. Well, I
mean, so, so you know, the Ithink this This idea of of
(24:59):
opening heart it is notmetaphorical it is into
something we can we can do andwith our body and just and just
imagine I'm opening my heart tothis, this tough conversation or
this and to do that outside tooI just think there's the key and
(25:21):
that's what I would labelspirituality is it's heart
opening, open heartedundefended, I don't know where
that that came from
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (25:32):
Wow our fact that I you know I did have
moments when I started thepodcast and I did this really
niche name, music andpeacebuilding. And I, you know,
one of the first questions Ihave to myself is, do I think it
(25:57):
do, I think this is gonna lastlike maybe I'll get like one
good season out of it. But I'mnot sure it can go any farther
than that. And I have beenreally inspired by the ways in
which it just keeps openingitself up. Also the ways in
which a dialogue about music soeasily moves to this idea of
(26:19):
peacebuilding. And it also helpsto cut through the theory of
peacebuilding is, you know,peace building theory, if you
layer theory upon theory,peacebuilding can start to
become really dry. And I've beenreally curious, just in these
last episodes, so we're gettingready to put out a new one on
Korean samul nori drumming. WhatI'm learning from that episode
(26:39):
right now is about what happenswhen drumming genre goes global.
And when the other who'sdistanced like a continent away,
becomes interested enough thatthey want to take up this this
art form. And then what happensin relationships across those,
(27:01):
you know, so those kinds ofquestions really open up and I
think they're fascinating.
Jon Rudy (27:06):
But Kevin, isn't any wonder that it's unfolded like a
flower when you base it on? Kindof these, this bedrock of
mutuality, agency andimagination. I mean, it's us,
unfortunately, you set yourselfup for a lifetime of podcasts,
because, because you startedwith something so solid, and
(27:26):
yet. I was as I was thinkingabout this, I was thinking about
how I know I'm my own worstreference point in the world,
you know, and so I can neverkind of predict where I am. And
I need the feedback. I need. Ineed.
Unknown (27:45):
Yeah, if the podcast had ended after one season,
would you felt any less aboutwhat you had produced?
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (27:54):
Yeah, I don't. The first season was
really rich. I can't I go back.
And I look and I think how inthe world did I do 20 episodes
in that first season? Becauseit's
Unknown (28:03):
even if you had a first season there was randomly taken
from all the episodes that youdid, right? If you only had one,
that's still be enough. It'dstill be out there.
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (28:15):
Yeah, the first season was just trying to
explore a lot of my best friendsand asking this question about
like, what you're trying to livein so that Krista Tippett ethic
of what happens when you readsomebody's work so deeply, that
you might that the interviewitself becomes a gift, you open
(28:36):
a space where you can reflectback to that person and honor
that person's work. And thatthat first season became that
the second season right reallyopened up about compassionate
music teaching, especially withKarin Hendricks work and getting
to go down the road ofinterviewing the people that she
interviewed. And then the thirdseason has just been the road of
(28:56):
ethnomusicology, which has beenreally fun to stay curious about
how we interact between theOther and ourselves.
Tyné (29:10):
What are you looking forward to with the podcast?
Like do you see sort of themedriven seasons, continuing sort
of shaping each season around adifferent theme going forward?
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (29:21):
So I have I think I have three episodes
left in the season. I've got theepisode recorded on samul nori
drumming Korean, and I've got anepisode with a shakuhachi player
in the Japanese tradition, andthen Olivier, who works with the
Min on Min Peace Institute inTokyo. And so kind of closing
(29:45):
there. And then I'm reallylooking forward to taking a
break. And then I wrote a grantto maybe a year and a half start
down the social psychology roadand I think I have a real
curiosity to start interviewingsome social psychologists to
(30:06):
live into the empiricalgrounding that would accompany
all the stories have been built.
You know, I think that the thediscoveries in neuroscience
right now are fascinating. And,and also that this idea about
identity and this really bigword belonging right now that's
everywhere. What does this wordbelonging mean? And when is it
(30:27):
problematic? When is it good?
There's so many of thosequestions to me that are really
fascinating. So I think that'swhat I'm looking forward to the
future, the podcast and also thequestion of can I build a book
from this as the other question,in about a year and a half that
may come to fruition?
Tyné (30:47):
I was wondering that I think it would lend itself
really well to that. Justexploring other media to kind of
convey these stories and ideas.
Yeah.
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (30:55):
Yeah, I think that that, that's my other
big aha moment is that I thinkin the second season, I started
realizing like, Oh, my goodness,these really work for online
education, Master musiceducation program. And I think I
first experienced that when Istarted just plugging in a few
podcasts into in some onlinemodules for the master students.
(31:17):
And all of a sudden, I watchedthe discussions go from kind of
here to here as far as depth andthe amount of investment that
people put into this onlinediscussion. And I started asking
myself questions like, Why isthis happening? And I think my
theory is that when we learn toread really scholarly academic
(31:38):
literature, it's, it's good andit stimulates our thoughts. And
it's important, but when weaccompany that literature with
story where we actually get tohear the voice of the author and
hear what moves them, whatmotivates them, and what they're
afraid of, and those things,things come alive, and the
(31:58):
discussions that we have are somuch richer. I've been really
fascinated about this now from apedagogical point about how
podcasts might be a place forlearning.
I think I have made every audioediting mistake possible made
pronunciation mistakes andmistakes of my bias. I embrace
(32:20):
the modeling of mistakes. AndI'm proud of conversations that
moved beyond the surface withethical care. I love the process
of podcasting. From reading tointerviews, narrations, and
mixing and editing. I love everypart of the process. I have
learned to read with curiositycenter, my listening, be
(32:43):
sensitive to language, honormagical inflections of voice and
marvel at the ways we tell ourstories.
The other thing that Iexperienced the the podcast on
on, Oliver Mtukudzi fromZimbabwe. I had to take the
(33:05):
podcast down because I couldn't.
I wasn't sure about thecopyrights of his songs. And
because his songs are owned byfive different record companies.
And I just didn't. But what Ilearned from Oliver Mtukudzi was
that he had this beautiful wayin Zimbabwe in dealing with a
really oppressive dictator. Andhe never sang directly at it.
Like he would always singcircular around the issue using
(33:28):
metaphor after metaphor. Youthought that he was singing
about your grandmother, butactually who's the same time he
was singing about the dictator?
And I, I thought a lot about,about your work about Oliver
Mtukudzi's work to kind ofencircle something. And maybe
(33:51):
also it challenges ourEurocentric notion that we need
to just go straight for it. Weneed to find our objective and
go straight there when actuallysometimes it's it's better to
work to move in circular motionsin this world.
Tyné (34:06):
Yeah, I think. Yeah, I guess it's just discerning what
the situation demands. Like, Idefinitely think one of the
beauties of art is being able tobring people into conversation
with topics that otherwise theymight not have been willing to
engage with. I think it can bemore palatable and approachable
(34:30):
when it's expressed in metaphor,when it's expressed in poetry.
So I agree with that. I think. Ithink just different people and
different artists, I guess, whenwe're speaking of music have
different approaches. So yeah, Ithink and even when you say in
circle, it makes me think abouttime and that whole circular
notions. So just try to think ofhow that can connect. I think
(34:53):
it's important to confrontthings in some cases. But in
other cases, you kind of have tojust read the situation or read
the room and understand whoyou're speaking or singing to,
and how they're going to best,what they're going to be most
receptive to.
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (35:16):
One of the things I remember about your
podcast, Dan that was so muchfun. We'd recorded the podcast,
I'd gone through and spliced it.
And I'm always asking myself,like, how do we make this story
come alive? And I felt like whenI interspersed your interview
with these ecological sounds inthe midst of it, like the whole
interview changed, and like,came alive. And when we got the,
(35:36):
the excerpts from GordonHempton, you know, I couldn't
believe I got permission fromGordon Hempton, who's an
acoustic ecologist who's beeninterviewed by Krista Tippett.
But we've got permission fromGordon Hempton to intersperse
some of his sound archive inthere, it was like you were
speaking your scholarship, andthen the world was sounding back
(35:57):
to it, that we created kind ofthat soundscape in that podcast.
Unknown (36:03):
What I liked you about that, that's, that's how the
inside of my brain works. Ispent a lot of time just sitting
outside and listening. You know,so when I think about things, as
a music education philosopher, Iguess that's what I'm paid to
do. But how much about things inwriting? But
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (36:24):
But how much more alive does philosophy
become when it leaves the pageand enters sound?
Unknown (36:30):
That's right. I don't think like going back to like,
you know, Plato. I don't thinkwe I don't think it was a good
thing to be stuck in the cave,right. Supposed to be outside.
You know, with all the all thisholistic soundscape that Life
provides.
Tyné (36:46):
Yeah, I'm what you were saying earlier, I think you're
sharing Dan just about thecultivating an awareness of the
sounds that surround us and howthat can be very overwhelming
when we when we open our minds,and I guess our hearts to what
all these sounds mean, and thesuffering behind it. Do you
(37:09):
think that I think you're right,it's easier to close your eyes
than it is close your ears? Howdo you? How do you navigate that
the fact that it can beoverwhelming I'm even thinking
about technology and just theinflux or bombardment of
information that we receive onthe daily just being alive in
general. What that means, like,how do you avoid feeling
(37:32):
overwhelmed? Do you find certainsounds cathartic? Like how do
you navigate that?
Unknown (37:37):
Yes, it's paradoxical, right? Because it's both
knowledge of the trauma that weas a species are inflicting upon
one another, and our brothersand sisters on this planet. And,
but at the same time, it's alsohealing. Right? I mean, you
(38:00):
know, there's a whole like fieldaround ecological therapy that
has arisen in the last 40 years.
So it's both things at the sametime, right. And it's, there's
so many paradoxes, right?
Because like we listen, if youwere to analyze, harmonically, a
soundscape, you would come upwith something far more atonal
(38:21):
than than Schoenberg. Right.
But, you know, kind of morepleasant at the same time,
right. So it's, yeah, I'd so Idon't know I can't get my head
around it entirely how it worksout, other than to use the word
paradox with art, which ParkerPalmer uses extensively in
spirituality is paradox. And sothat makes me think that music
(38:46):
education should be first aspiritual adventure, recognizing
how all musics emerge frommother Earth
Kevin Shorner-Johnson (38:55):
as you said that word spiritual limits.
So that's some one thing I wantto just weigh in on opening up
to John, for one last comment,close. But I think one of the
things I admire about all threeof you is that all three of you
are moving in different ways inthe world from a, from a
spiritual or religious place andthe tradition. And I think
(39:17):
that's another thing too, that Iwas trying to open up both with
the master's program and withthe podcast is not being afraid
of that language. And also, notonly not being afraid of the
spiritual and religiouslanguage, but actually embracing
it because I think, often wewere really scared about moving
into the secular spaces andbringing that part of ourselves
(39:40):
with us. But yet, that part ofourselves carries some of the
deepest meanings that we haveand why we do what we do and
what we care about and how wecare. And I think I'm always
trying to build spaces wherepeople can feel alive enough and
curious enough to hold on tothat language and embrace it.
But also still make the languageopen enough that it embraces a
(40:04):
humanist perspective or aBuddhist perspective or Hindu
perspective. But also but onethat allows the most important
parts of ourselves to enterthrough song or through words
and story.
As we close, I reflect on whatthis project has meant as a
(40:25):
practice of the most importantparts of ourselves. With each
guest, I have learned to listenmore deeply, to open windows of
limited understandings, and toenter the joy of celebrating
each other. When I first cameacross John O'Donohue's book of
blessings I knew I had generouspoetry, words expansive enough
(40:48):
for religious and non religioustraditions, and an act of a
blessing as a foundationalembodiment of peacemaking. In
blessing, we hold our intention,a tension, and offer the best
for each other. In the languageof you, we direct our gaze. And
(41:11):
in using the language of we, wejoin hands to enter shared
experience of a gift, an excerptfrom O'Donohue's poem for
celebration.
Open your eyes and see the kind,whose hearts recognize you as
kin. Those whose kindnesswatchful and near encourages you
(41:35):
to live everything here. See thegifts the years have given
things your effort could neverearn the health to enjoy what
you want to be, and the mind tomirror mystery.
Thanks to my good friends, JonRudy Dan Shevock. And Tyne
(41:57):
Angela Freeman for the gift oftheir time with me and
constructing this episode. Afull reflection on the first
10,000 downloads is available onour blog and music
peacebuilding.com. And mydeepest thanks to each and every
guest across the first threeyears of this podcast, and to
(42:18):
you the listener for your time,your attention, and your
generous feedback that fuelsthis continued work. If you like
this podcast, please leave areview on iTunes so that others
may find this space. Thank youfor the generosity of your time.
This is the music andpeacebuilding podcast hosted by
(42:40):
Kevin Shorner-Johnson. AtElizabethtown College, we host a
master of music education withan emphasis in peacebuilding.
thinking deeply we reclaim spacefor connection and care. Join us
at music peacebuilding.com
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