April 1, 2026 • 32 mins
Postpartum depression doesn’t always look the way we expect — and that’s why so many new mothers go unseen. What happens when someone is doing “everything right” on the outside but struggling deeply on the inside?
In this episode of Normalize The Conversation, host Francesca Reicherter sits down with Dr. Emily Guarnotta, a psychologist specializing in maternal and perinatal mental health, to unpack how postpartum anxiety and depression actually show up — especially in high-functioning women.
Together, they explore the many ways postpartum mental health struggles can be missed, misunderstood, or minimized. Dr. Gornata explains why postpartum depression isn’t always marked by withdrawal or inability to function, and how intrusive thoughts, sleep disruption, irritability, shame, and difficulty bonding can be powerful warning signs — even when a mother appears capable and put-together.
This episode is for:
New or expecting mothers wondering if what they’re feeling is “normal”
Partners, friends, and family who want to better support postpartum moms
Therapists, clinicians, and students seeking more insight into maternal mental health
Anyone interested in mental health, emotional wellness, and reducing stigma
Dr. Guarnotta also shares her own experience with postpartum depression, including the shame that delayed her seeking help — even as a mental health professional. The conversation highlights how societal expectations, comparison on social media, and the pressure to feel grateful can prevent women from reaching out for support.
You’ll learn how to recognize signs that go beyond typical newborn adjustment, why asking “How are you really?” matters, and what healing can look like through therapy, community, and accessible support resources.
If you or someone you love is navigating postpartum mental health, this episode offers clarity, validation, and practical guidance.
🎧 Listen now — and if this conversation resonates, consider following Normalize The Conversation or sharing it with someone who may need it.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
When a lot of people hear the word postpartum depression, they
picture a mom unable to take care of her baby, maybe unable
to take care of herself, stayingin bed all day.
And while that that could be a version of it, there are so many
other versions. And in my experience, for a lot
of women, it shows up as a very high functioning depression
(00:21):
where a lot of women with it areare taking care of their babies.
They're out multiple times a night.
They're changing diapers, feeding, they're doing all the
things. But inside they're really
struggling and really crumbling and feeling the weight of it
all. A lot of the depression, the
symptoms can mimic, you know, a traditional depression.
(00:44):
You know, it could be difficultysleeping at night or maybe
sleeping more than usual, changes in your appetite, a
sense of kind of like fogginess,difficulty making decisions,
staying focused, you know, thoughts, thoughts that it'd be
better off if I wasn't here. All of those things can
certainly be part of it. And as you mentioned, it can
(01:06):
also be difficulty bonding with your baby, feeling disconnected
from your baby, even though you might love them very much, you
might feel like there's not a connection there.
Welcome to Normalize the conversation by inspiring my
generation, I'm your host, Francesca Reikter.
Today I'm joined by Emily Gornata, A licensed psychologist
and certified perinatal mental health provider.
(01:28):
Today we're talking about postpartum mental health in a
way that's honest, validating, and human.
We unpack the difference betweenwhat's often dismissed as normal
new moms stress and when postpartum depression or anxiety
may actually be showing up. This is a conversation about
naming what's happening and letting go of shame.
(01:49):
So if you or someone you love has felt overwhelmed after
having a baby, join us in this conversation.
You don't have to carry this quietly.
Emily, thank you so much for joining me today.
I'm very excited for our conversation.
But before we begin, I want to check in.
How are you really? I'm actually doing OK today.
(02:12):
We are a couple days into the new year and it was a little bit
of a crazy start just as a psychologist with insurance
plans resetting and checking benefits.
It was a little chaotic. But it's finally Thursday,
tomorrow's Friday, so I'm actually feeling a lot more
grounded today. Thank you for.
Asking that sounds OK. So I went to school to be a
(02:35):
therapist. I haven't started licensing
hours yet and the whole insurance thing sounds
terrifying to me so that sounds like a lot.
I'm glad it's Thursday and you're doing better today and
feeling more grounded 'cause that sounds like the most That
was the most terrifying thing tome in school was when teachers
would talk about insurance and the difficulty of it it.
(02:59):
There's a lot of challenges. It's it's manageable.
You can, there are, I think there are ways to, there are
things that I've learned to makeit better.
But yeah, I learned a lot this year and how to not do it next
year when it comes to verifying benefits.
I think it's like that a lot of things, right?
(03:20):
Learning as you're going. I've.
Started to realize that recentlyI felt like I had to know
everything going into something and then when things didn't go
exactly as how I expected it I was so confused.
Yeah, I think there's a ton of just learning on the go, trial
and error. If you wait to know everything,
(03:42):
then you're going to be staying in the same spot for so long, so
you do kind of have to jump in and figure it out as you go.
Yeah, that's the scary thing about life, right?
Just not having to learn that you don't.
You're not going to know everything.
Yeah, there's a lot of winging it that happens.
Not liking it so far, but it's also kind of great because you
(04:05):
get to learn and I love learning, which is why I'm so
excited for this conversation. A lot of times going into
podcast episodes, I have some kind of experience with the
topic. At least people talked about it
around me a lot. And today we're going to talk
about the kind of how anxiety and depression show up
(04:27):
postpartum. And that's not something I've
really had exposure to, not in my personal life, people around
me, because I haven't been around a lot of people who've
had children. I haven't had children yet and I
haven't seen people really talking about it that much
online in schools in my training, so I'm excited for
(04:48):
this conversation because it's achance to learn.
Yeah, I really appreciate you having me.
And I think you brought up a huge point, which is that even
in training to be a therapist, to be a psychologist, we don't
really talk a lot about women's mental health, postpartum mental
health, reproductive journeys, which is really a problem
(05:08):
because it is something that a lot of people go through.
And a lot of us as therapists, we're going to encounter, you
know, postpartum women, families, women going through
infertility, pregnancy loss. But yet we, a lot of us don't
have any experience and how to work with it prior to to those
people coming through our doors.So I really appreciate you
(05:30):
having me here today. I appreciate you being willing
to have this conversation. You don't know, but you don't
know. And when you hear postpartum
depression, for me, I would haveassumed going into it originally
that that's just like having depression after having a child.
And when I start to do research on it, there's so many different
(05:52):
pieces. It can even be like feeling
disconnected from your child. I'm excited or interested to
learn more about what are actualsymptoms of postpartum
depression, anxiety that may be a warning signs that maybe we
don't we miss. Yeah, there's there's so many
different ways that it can show up.
(06:12):
And I think that when a lot of people hear the word postpartum
depression, they picture a mom unable to take care of her baby,
maybe unable to take care of herself, staying in bed all day.
And while that that could be a version of it, there's so many
other versions. And in my experience, for a lot
of women, it shows up as a very high functioning depression
(06:35):
where a lot of women with it are, are taking care of their
babies. They're out multiple times a
night, they're changing diapers,feeding, they're doing all the
things. But inside they're really
struggling and really crumbling and feeling the weight of it
all. A lot of the depression, the
symptoms can mimic, you know, a traditional depression.
(06:58):
You know, it could be difficultysleeping at night or maybe
sleeping more than usual, changes in your appetite, a
sense of kind of like fogginess,difficulty making decisions,
staying focused, you know, thoughts, thoughts that it'd be
better off if I wasn't here. All of those things can
certainly be part of it. And as you mentioned, it can
(07:20):
also be difficulty bonding with your baby, feeling disconnected
from your baby, even though you might love them very much, you
might feel like there's not a connection there.
These are all different ways that it can kind of present.
I like you said that initial picture, right?
It's exactly what I kind of pictured before I went and did
(07:43):
any research and hearing these different ways.
I mean, high functioning, we often don't think about that.
And we think if we're doing all of these things, I must be fine
or something must be wrong with me for having intrusive thoughts
or for feeling this way or for something to just feel a little
off, right? Like why am I feeling this way?
(08:03):
I seem to be fine. I'm doing what I'm supposed to
be doing. Or from the outside, other
people looking in seeing, well, they don't appear to have like a
form of depression. So it's not postpartum
depression, right? A lot of people, they kind of
right. We assume if someone's high
functioning, then there's nothing actually wrong.
So how can someone, maybe a partner on the outside,
(08:26):
recognize some of these warning signs, or maybe be more attuned
to what's going on? Yeah, I think for partners,
family and friends, being aware of the more traditional signs,
like does she seem like she's really down?
Is she crying more? Is she, have there been changes
(08:48):
to how she's sleeping or eating beyond what having a typical
newborn would require? Does she seem just not like
herself and really checking in and asking her and also asking
her just as you so beautifully did at the beginning of this,
Like, how are you really doing? Like asking the moms in your
life, how are you really doing? Even the ones that seem like
(09:08):
they're completely OK and they have it all together because you
just never really know what's going on beyond the surface.
And unless you ask that questionand you're really ready to hear
the answer, you'll just never know.
Wait, I love that important distinction beyond like the norm
of having a newborn, right that lack of sleep, the crying like
(09:29):
paying attention. Is this more than what the
typical experience or what the experience should be right is my
am I getting enough sleep? I just, I think we assume that
while no one sleeps after havinga newborn, therefore this is
(09:50):
just part of the experience and maybe recognizing there is a
distinction and being able to really check in with ourselves
and giving ourselves permission to know that it's OK if we're
not OK. Yeah, 100%.
There's so many women that I talked to who have so much
trouble sleeping, even when their baby's sleeping, where
(10:12):
they know their, their baby's asleep and they finally have a
moment to close their eyes and their anxiety and their
intrusive thoughts. You know, we know anxiety and
intrusive thoughts love nighttime darkness, isolation.
So that's often when that all comes up and then they have so
much difficulty sleeping and then the next thing they know,
the baby's up again. And it's this just constant
cycle of anxiety, stress and andlack of sleep.
(10:37):
Yeah, I, I didn't think about that, you know, like being able
to sleep when the baby's sleeping, like if you can't, if
you're having those intrusive thoughts, then it's keeping you
up. That is a big warning sign.
So I know you mentioned before we start talking that you're
comfortable sharing about your own experience for people who
(11:00):
are listening that maybe kind ofhearing the warning signs,
hearing the symptoms kind of getit, but hearing maybe a bit of a
stories and experience. Can you share a little bit about
what it was like for you? Yeah, absolutely.
So I, I had my first child about7 years ago.
(11:20):
And at that time I, I had just was, I guess I was a couple
years into working as a psychologist and I really
naively thought that being a mental health professional
somehow made me exempt from everexperiencing postpartum
depression or anxiety. But when I had her, I got hit
with the baby Blues pretty hard,pretty fast.
(11:42):
And then from there, I thought, and for anyone who doesn't know,
the baby Blues are something that a lot of 80, about 80% of
women experience. And it's some kind of, it's kind
of a cluster of some anxiety, some sadness, crying for what
feels like no reason. It usually hits at about 3:00 to
five days postpartum. And then for a lot of people, it
(12:05):
gets better after that. But for some of us, it doesn't.
And I found that from that pointon, I started feeling worse and
worse. And I was very much high
functioning. I was, I went back to work
really quickly, but I was reallystressed out about it.
I was having difficulty bonding with my baby.
(12:26):
I was really on edge, very irritable, felt like I was
failing at everything. And it took me a really long
time to admit that it was postpartum depression.
I felt so much shame about it because I felt like as a mental
health professional, you know, I, I should have been able to
stop it to get help right away. I actually waited a really long
(12:50):
time to seek help to get back into therapy.
Probably my daughter was maybe like 8 months before I, I
finally reached out and the whole thing was just, it was, it
was just really eye opening, youknow that no one is really
exempt from it. And some people have more risk
factors. In hindsight, I certainly had a
(13:13):
lot of risk factors. I had a history of anxiety.
I I didn't have a lot of family support, which is huge risk
factor. There were a lot of things that
contributed. To it.
But after I did get back into therapy, I found the right
provider, I did start getting better, and that really led me
(13:34):
in my practice to want to specialize in working with
postpartum mental health and perinatal mental health.
So after I went through my own healing journey, I went back,
got some more training in this area because like we just talked
about, you don't get a lot of training in this and in Graduate
School. And that's really been my focus
the last five or so years is, isworking with maternal perinatal
(13:56):
mental health. Thank you for sharing.
I think that shame piece comes up a lot right?
A lot of times people may feel OK based on the research I did
in the stories I looked up because again, I don't have
experience in this at all. But it seems like a lot of
(14:18):
people were saying that they hadthis kind of like guilt or shame
about not feeling happy enough after having a baby or feeling
like I should have been able to catch this sooner because I've
gone to therapy before where I've had exposure to this.
I should have had the tools, theskills, like how did this
(14:40):
happen? I should be able to figure it
out myself. I should be strong enough to be
able to whatever it is, all these kind of ideas in their
head. Maybe it's the stigma talking,
Maybe it's this just general idea from Society of how the
experience should be. The shame or guilt prevents a
lot of people from actually reaching out, it sounds like.
(15:02):
Yeah, I mean, we're told it's supposed to be the happiest time
of your life. And everyone wants to come to
meet the baby. And they're all telling you soak
it all up, enjoy every minute. This is the best it's ever going
to be. And with them, when you feel
like it's not something that youwant to soak up every minute, it
makes you think, you know what'swrong with me?
Why am I having such a differentexperience than everyone else
(15:26):
seems to be having? So it definitely fuels a lot of
shame. What do you wish someone had
said to you back then in those moments?
I wish, like you had done at thebeginning of this interview,
someone had asked how I was because everyone was asking how
the baby was, which, you know, is is great.
(15:47):
But as a mom, you almost kind ofgot pushed to the background and
you're just expected to be OK. So I think if someone had really
checked in on how I was doing, had normalized some of it
because I did look around at friends and family who had
babies and everyone seemed like they were getting on so well,
(16:10):
which makes you really feel likethere's something wrong with
you. I wish I, you know, in
hindsight, I know that a lot of people were having more of a
hard time than they were lettingon, but there was a lot of, you
know, presenting really well andsocial media of course, plays a
huge part in that. So I always, the postpartum moms
that I work with, I'm always checking in on how they're using
(16:31):
social media because that's justa huge, it's, it's a really big
thing that can feel a lot of comparison and shame.
Yeah, I imagine that must be really hard, going on social
media and seeing everyone smiling and sharing like all
these. I know I always see like people
(16:53):
I went to high school, but they're all having kids now.
So I see like all these like really cute photos and all the
smiling and the little milestones, right?
And the one month photo shoot, 2month photo shoot in the
matching outfits and all these things.
And it looks like the picture perfect image every single day,
(17:14):
every single photo. And I imagine if you are a mom
experiencing postpartum depression or anxiety and you're
seeing that, it must feel very difficult that comparison,
seeing everyone else's like picture perfect image.
And why am I not feeling that way and experiencing it in that
(17:36):
same way? And am I missing out in some
way? Yeah, 100%.
I mean, even, even when you knowthat it's a highlight reel,
still emotionally our brains when we see images like that
have a way of, you know, questioning, like, what's wrong
with me that I'm not having the same experience as that person.
(17:58):
So I, I, I do believe social media has made postpartum mental
health and all mental health in general, you know, more
challenging in a lot. Of ways how can someone be more
maybe mindful with their use if they know that that's something
they're experiencing utilizing social media in a way that's
kind of mindful and productive for them so they're not going
(18:21):
online stuck in this comparison game that's causing more
distress for them. I always encourage my clients to
kind of check in with themselvesabout their relationship with
social media and ask themselves questions like how do I feel
when I'm on it? You know, I think that's a big
one, like asking how do you feelwhen you're, you're scrolling?
(18:44):
You know, do I feel good? Am I getting valuable
information and tips or am I logging off and feeling, you
know, not so good? Do I, you know, 9 times out of
10, do I feel worse after I'm scrolling?
And, you know, setting boundaries around it too.
If you find that you're not feeling so good on it, limiting
your time. I my New Year's resolution this
(19:08):
year is to not go on social media before like 9:00 AM, which
sounds even terrible that that has to be my limit because I
wish that it was. I wish I could say like I could
do a full detox, but I found that going on in the morning, it
was such a vulnerable time for me that that was really
impacting the rest of my day. So, you know, whether it's
(19:28):
setting detoxes or even mini boundaries like that, putting
those things in place, especially when you're you're
going through something as vulnerable, you know, as as
motherhood. Yeah.
Boost checking in with yourself is so important and we're often
not taught that that's OK and putting ourselves first.
Sometimes realizing that if being online or doing something
(19:54):
is causing me distress or discomfort, I don't have to be
following certain accounts. I don't have to be checking
online and scrolling all day every day.
And we don't realize we have a lot more control than we realize
over how we use our time. Especially our screen time and
(20:14):
sidebar. It's so funny that you I did
that to the 9:00 AM thing. 9:00 AM to 5:00 AM is how I have my
screen time set now for social media.
And every morning I always hit like the remind me in 15 minutes
200 times before 9:00 AM. So I'm failing at it.
But that was also mine, so it's funny that you said that.
(20:34):
Yeah, yeah, the morning is just such a vulnerable time.
But I think none of us like we we weren't taught how to have a
healthy relationship with socialmedia.
It's also new. I mean, even our parents
generation, they didn't have this.
So no one was there to kind of teach us what a healthy
relationship looks like. I mean, that's really what we
(20:55):
should be teaching our kids in schools, right?
It's because this is going to besuch a huge part of their lives.
Like, how can you have a healthyrelationship with this thing and
not one that's wrapped up in social comparison and and
addiction and all the other stuff that it brings?
Absolutely. And that starts with just
(21:16):
learning how to really check in with ourselves and seeing how it
is impacting us and being willing to recognize and
acknowledge it and admit it. Because a lot of times we just
kind of mindlessly scroll and don't even pay attention to how
it's impacting us and then think, I don't know.
(21:37):
I know for me, a lot of times I'm like, I don't know why I
feel so upset with how like my lack of for example, I have my
accounts right. Everyone is together all the
time. It looks like they've people
surrounding them. And then a lot of times I work
(21:58):
from home, for example, so people might be posting with
their Co workers and doing things and then I'm sitting home
working behind a computer screen.
So I'm like convinced all the time that I'm alone.
I have no one. I'm like, I don't know why I
feel this way. But if I just put my phone down
and wasn't looking at Instagram,scrolling all day, seeing those
(22:19):
pictures of everyone together, recognize that it's making me
feel like I'm alone all the time, when instead I could pick
up the phone and use my screen to call someone and make a plan.
Just recognizing how it's impacting us and what else we
could do instead makes such a difference.
And it's been so hard for me because then I have to admit
(22:41):
that I'm also playing a role in how I'm feeling.
Yeah. We do so many things on
autopilot and, and taking that step back and observing what
we're doing versus just mindlessly doing it is it's
really hard to do. But it's great when you can take
that step back and make that connection and then make that
decision and say, OK, maybe I need to, maybe I need a little
(23:03):
bit of a break from this. Yeah, it was a tool I learned in
therapy. On that note, what are some of?
So you said it took eight monthswhen you finally went to therapy
and now you kind of specialize this in this as a therapist.
What are some tools that moms can learn in therapy when
(23:25):
experiencing postpartum depression anxiety?
What are the benefits of really reaching out for support?
Yeah, I think there's so many. So just having that safe space
to talk in itself is a huge benefit where you know you're
not going to be judged. You can share every scary,
shameful thought feeling that you're having with this person
(23:47):
who's going to non judge mentally, be empathic and
supportive to you is huge. It can help you reframe some of
the ways that you're thinking about yourself, about
motherhood. It can help you gain control
over the anxiety that you're having cause anxiety is a huge
(24:07):
part of this too. You know, we want to protect our
babies, and a lot of times our brains put us into
overprotective mode as a very adaptive response to being a
mom. But sometimes that can get kind
of out of hand. So therapy can help us rein that
in a bit so that we're, you know, being vigilant with our
babies, but we're not being overly anxious to a point where
(24:31):
it's negatively impacting us. It can help us work through
traumas that we might have experienced along the way.
One of the biggest learnings forme has been that motherhood is a
pretty complex journey. For a lot of people, it's rarely
a straight line. For a lot of people, it involves
(24:51):
infertility and involves pregnancy losses.
So a lot of women kind of accumulate traumas along the
way. And therapy is the place to
process that. And another big thing that I've
I've learned is that becoming a mother can really bring up a lot
about your own childhood that maybe you thought you resolved,
(25:12):
but has a way of coming back up again.
So therapy can be a really valuable place to to talk about
that and, and you know, explore what that means to heal from
that. But it's so true.
I wasn't even thinking about those last two points.
And that is so true, right? The experience it takes to get
(25:34):
there, a lot of people experience, it takes a while to
be able to get pregnant, right? A lot of people go through such
a long journey and it can face alot of loss, a lot of trauma
along the way, and feel so isolating in so many moments
(25:56):
because a lot of people don't even feel like they can talk
about it. And to have a space where you
can explore that and feel maybe held and heard and seen for the
first time can be amazing. And then as well as things
coming up from your childhood, Iknow a lot of times just with my
(26:16):
parents, even still with me as an adult, we'll be talking about
something and have an experienceand it'll trigger something from
their childhood and the way theyreact.
And then afterwards we come backand my dad's like, sorry, I
reacted based on experience fromme and my dad and had nothing to
do with me and you. And I don't wanna our
(26:37):
relationship to feel that way. And we've come so far with his
communication skills. Wow.
I was gonna say, your dad soundsvery emotionally intelligent.
Sometimes go dad Sometimes, but we've gotten better at that and
being able to recognize it. But a lot of times we don't
recognize it or we don't realizehow much is impacting us or
(26:59):
never have a space to really process it right.
So actually having that space, those are amazing things you can
do in therapy as well. I don't even think about that,
which feels so silly if not eventhinking about those two
aspects. But therapy really can be a
great place. And then for people who maybe
(27:19):
you're struggling to find a therapist or don't have the
resources to access therapy, canyou recommend some starting
points maybe for them until they're able to access therapy
or tools that work for them? Yeah, Postpartum Support
International is a nonprofit group, and they have a lot of
(27:41):
free support groups that are right online and they're geared
towards different types of parents.
So they have support groups for postpartum moms, They have ones
for NICU parents, for parents who have experienced pregnancy
loss, just a ton of military parents, a ton of different
support groups. So I often recommend people
(28:02):
start there if they can access therapy or maybe they're not
ready for therapy. Also, local support groups, like
local mom groups getting connected.
I love mom groups that do like the like walking with the kids
and the strollers because getting outside and being around
people is so healing and so helpful.
(28:25):
So those are definitely some of the resources that I would
recommend. Thank you for sharing.
I think a lot of people don't know that there is resources out
there and that there's free resources out there.
A lot of times when therapy is inaccessible, people feel like
there's nothing for me, and I'm kind of stuck in this.
So knowing about free resources makes such a difference.
(28:48):
And as we are kind of beginning to wrap up, what's I guess one
last thing you'd like to leave our listeners with?
I think just kind of piggybacking off of your first
question, which I absolutely loved, is just to check in on
the moms in your life, I mean, or anyone in your life too.
(29:10):
I think just the point that you really never know what someone's
going through or what struggle is they're carrying.
So just checking in, asking how they are and being ready for the
answer. I think, you know, if we all did
that like once today, you know, how much of A better place would
the world be? Right.
(29:31):
How are you really make such a difference?
And a lot of times we've turned it into a greeting and we don't
say it with intention. And if we really give someone
the space to just be a human being, be vulnerable and exist
and show up as they are, it can make such a difference.
And when we do, if someone needssupport, it can be the
(29:55):
difference between whether or not they ask for it or they
share something that leads to maybe helping them find support
A. 100%, yeah, yeah. Or really be ready to hear the
answer to you because you're right, it is kind of just a
check off box that we we have insocial interactions.
But really asking and then beingready to hear what the answer
(30:18):
is. It's such a beautiful gift to
give someone. So thank you for that today.
Thank you so much for being herewith me with sharing all this
useful information. I wish these were things I
learned, especially in grad school.
Like I wish this was something that was taught to me.
(30:39):
I wish that these conversations are being held more because I
can't imagine the isolation thatso many moms are feeling.
So I appreciate you for having these conversations for the work
that you're doing. How can people learn more about
you and your work? Yeah, well, I I have a therapy
(30:59):
practice. It's called Phoenix Health and
we specialize in maternal mentalhealth.
Our website is join Phoenix health.com.
So I'm also on Instagram and LinkedIn.
My Instagram is Doctor Emily Gornata and yeah, I'd love to
connect. Thank you so much for listening
to Normalize the Conversation. Don't forget to subscribe, rate,
(31:22):
and review. This podcast is an initiative of
Inspiring My Generation, focusing on normalizing the
conversation, bringing educationand awareness to the forefront,
and amplifying global voices to spark change and hope.
Inspiring My Generation is A5O1C3 nonprofit organization on
(31:42):
a mission towards suicide prevention through awareness,
conversation, education, and support.
Connect with us on Instagram at Inspiring My Generation and
visit our website inspiringmygeneration.org to
learn more about our work and how you can make a difference.
When a lot of people hear the word postpartum depression, they
picture a mom unable to take care of her baby, maybe unable
to take care of herself, stayingin bed all day.
And while that that could be a version of it, there are so many
other versions. And in my experience, for a lot
of women, it shows up as a very high functioning depression
(00:21):
where a lot of women with it areare taking care of their babies.
They're out multiple times a night.
They're changing diapers, feeding, they're doing all the
things. But inside they're really
struggling and really crumbling and feeling the weight of it
all. A lot of the depression, the
symptoms can mimic, you know, a traditional depression.
(00:44):
You know, it could be difficultysleeping at night or maybe
sleeping more than usual, changes in your appetite, a
sense of kind of like fogginess,difficulty making decisions,
staying focused, you know, thoughts, thoughts that it'd be
better off if I wasn't here. All of those things can
certainly be part of it. And as you mentioned, it can
(01:06):
also be difficulty bonding with your baby, feeling disconnected
from your baby, even though you might love them very much, you
might feel like there's not a connection there.
Welcome to Normalize the conversation by inspiring my
generation, I'm your host, Francesca Reikter.
Today I'm joined by Emily Gornata, A licensed psychologist
and certified perinatal mental health provider.
(01:28):
Today we're talking about postpartum mental health in a
way that's honest, validating, and human.
We unpack the difference betweenwhat's often dismissed as normal
new moms stress and when postpartum depression or anxiety
may actually be showing up. This is a conversation about
naming what's happening and letting go of shame.
(01:49):
So if you or someone you love has felt overwhelmed after
having a baby, join us in this conversation.
You don't have to carry this quietly.
Emily, thank you so much for joining me today.
I'm very excited for our conversation.
But before we begin, I want to check in.
How are you really? I'm actually doing OK today.
(02:12):
We are a couple days into the new year and it was a little bit
of a crazy start just as a psychologist with insurance
plans resetting and checking benefits.
It was a little chaotic. But it's finally Thursday,
tomorrow's Friday, so I'm actually feeling a lot more
grounded today. Thank you for.
Asking that sounds OK. So I went to school to be a
(02:35):
therapist. I haven't started licensing
hours yet and the whole insurance thing sounds
terrifying to me so that sounds like a lot.
I'm glad it's Thursday and you're doing better today and
feeling more grounded 'cause that sounds like the most That
was the most terrifying thing tome in school was when teachers
would talk about insurance and the difficulty of it it.
(02:59):
There's a lot of challenges. It's it's manageable.
You can, there are, I think there are ways to, there are
things that I've learned to makeit better.
But yeah, I learned a lot this year and how to not do it next
year when it comes to verifying benefits.
I think it's like that a lot of things, right?
(03:20):
Learning as you're going. I've.
Started to realize that recentlyI felt like I had to know
everything going into something and then when things didn't go
exactly as how I expected it I was so confused.
Yeah, I think there's a ton of just learning on the go, trial
and error. If you wait to know everything,
(03:42):
then you're going to be staying in the same spot for so long, so
you do kind of have to jump in and figure it out as you go.
Yeah, that's the scary thing about life, right?
Just not having to learn that you don't.
You're not going to know everything.
Yeah, there's a lot of winging it that happens.
Not liking it so far, but it's also kind of great because you
(04:05):
get to learn and I love learning, which is why I'm so
excited for this conversation. A lot of times going into
podcast episodes, I have some kind of experience with the
topic. At least people talked about it
around me a lot. And today we're going to talk
about the kind of how anxiety and depression show up
(04:27):
postpartum. And that's not something I've
really had exposure to, not in my personal life, people around
me, because I haven't been around a lot of people who've
had children. I haven't had children yet and I
haven't seen people really talking about it that much
online in schools in my training, so I'm excited for
(04:48):
this conversation because it's achance to learn.
Yeah, I really appreciate you having me.
And I think you brought up a huge point, which is that even
in training to be a therapist, to be a psychologist, we don't
really talk a lot about women's mental health, postpartum mental
health, reproductive journeys, which is really a problem
(05:08):
because it is something that a lot of people go through.
And a lot of us as therapists, we're going to encounter, you
know, postpartum women, families, women going through
infertility, pregnancy loss. But yet we, a lot of us don't
have any experience and how to work with it prior to to those
people coming through our doors.So I really appreciate you
(05:30):
having me here today. I appreciate you being willing
to have this conversation. You don't know, but you don't
know. And when you hear postpartum
depression, for me, I would haveassumed going into it originally
that that's just like having depression after having a child.
And when I start to do research on it, there's so many different
(05:52):
pieces. It can even be like feeling
disconnected from your child. I'm excited or interested to
learn more about what are actualsymptoms of postpartum
depression, anxiety that may be a warning signs that maybe we
don't we miss. Yeah, there's there's so many
different ways that it can show up.
(06:12):
And I think that when a lot of people hear the word postpartum
depression, they picture a mom unable to take care of her baby,
maybe unable to take care of herself, staying in bed all day.
And while that that could be a version of it, there's so many
other versions. And in my experience, for a lot
of women, it shows up as a very high functioning depression
(06:35):
where a lot of women with it are, are taking care of their
babies. They're out multiple times a
night, they're changing diapers,feeding, they're doing all the
things. But inside they're really
struggling and really crumbling and feeling the weight of it
all. A lot of the depression, the
symptoms can mimic, you know, a traditional depression.
(06:58):
You know, it could be difficultysleeping at night or maybe
sleeping more than usual, changes in your appetite, a
sense of kind of like fogginess,difficulty making decisions,
staying focused, you know, thoughts, thoughts that it'd be
better off if I wasn't here. All of those things can
certainly be part of it. And as you mentioned, it can
(07:20):
also be difficulty bonding with your baby, feeling disconnected
from your baby, even though you might love them very much, you
might feel like there's not a connection there.
These are all different ways that it can kind of present.
I like you said that initial picture, right?
It's exactly what I kind of pictured before I went and did
(07:43):
any research and hearing these different ways.
I mean, high functioning, we often don't think about that.
And we think if we're doing all of these things, I must be fine
or something must be wrong with me for having intrusive thoughts
or for feeling this way or for something to just feel a little
off, right? Like why am I feeling this way?
(08:03):
I seem to be fine. I'm doing what I'm supposed to
be doing. Or from the outside, other
people looking in seeing, well, they don't appear to have like a
form of depression. So it's not postpartum
depression, right? A lot of people, they kind of
right. We assume if someone's high
functioning, then there's nothing actually wrong.
So how can someone, maybe a partner on the outside,
(08:26):
recognize some of these warning signs, or maybe be more attuned
to what's going on? Yeah, I think for partners,
family and friends, being aware of the more traditional signs,
like does she seem like she's really down?
Is she crying more? Is she, have there been changes
(08:48):
to how she's sleeping or eating beyond what having a typical
newborn would require? Does she seem just not like
herself and really checking in and asking her and also asking
her just as you so beautifully did at the beginning of this,
Like, how are you really doing? Like asking the moms in your
life, how are you really doing? Even the ones that seem like
(09:08):
they're completely OK and they have it all together because you
just never really know what's going on beyond the surface.
And unless you ask that questionand you're really ready to hear
the answer, you'll just never know.
Wait, I love that important distinction beyond like the norm
of having a newborn, right that lack of sleep, the crying like
(09:29):
paying attention. Is this more than what the
typical experience or what the experience should be right is my
am I getting enough sleep? I just, I think we assume that
while no one sleeps after havinga newborn, therefore this is
(09:50):
just part of the experience and maybe recognizing there is a
distinction and being able to really check in with ourselves
and giving ourselves permission to know that it's OK if we're
not OK. Yeah, 100%.
There's so many women that I talked to who have so much
trouble sleeping, even when their baby's sleeping, where
(10:12):
they know their, their baby's asleep and they finally have a
moment to close their eyes and their anxiety and their
intrusive thoughts. You know, we know anxiety and
intrusive thoughts love nighttime darkness, isolation.
So that's often when that all comes up and then they have so
much difficulty sleeping and then the next thing they know,
the baby's up again. And it's this just constant
cycle of anxiety, stress and andlack of sleep.
(10:37):
Yeah, I, I didn't think about that, you know, like being able
to sleep when the baby's sleeping, like if you can't, if
you're having those intrusive thoughts, then it's keeping you
up. That is a big warning sign.
So I know you mentioned before we start talking that you're
comfortable sharing about your own experience for people who
(11:00):
are listening that maybe kind ofhearing the warning signs,
hearing the symptoms kind of getit, but hearing maybe a bit of a
stories and experience. Can you share a little bit about
what it was like for you? Yeah, absolutely.
So I, I had my first child about7 years ago.
(11:20):
And at that time I, I had just was, I guess I was a couple
years into working as a psychologist and I really
naively thought that being a mental health professional
somehow made me exempt from everexperiencing postpartum
depression or anxiety. But when I had her, I got hit
with the baby Blues pretty hard,pretty fast.
(11:42):
And then from there, I thought, and for anyone who doesn't know,
the baby Blues are something that a lot of 80, about 80% of
women experience. And it's some kind of, it's kind
of a cluster of some anxiety, some sadness, crying for what
feels like no reason. It usually hits at about 3:00 to
five days postpartum. And then for a lot of people, it
(12:05):
gets better after that. But for some of us, it doesn't.
And I found that from that pointon, I started feeling worse and
worse. And I was very much high
functioning. I was, I went back to work
really quickly, but I was reallystressed out about it.
I was having difficulty bonding with my baby.
(12:26):
I was really on edge, very irritable, felt like I was
failing at everything. And it took me a really long
time to admit that it was postpartum depression.
I felt so much shame about it because I felt like as a mental
health professional, you know, I, I should have been able to
stop it to get help right away. I actually waited a really long
(12:50):
time to seek help to get back into therapy.
Probably my daughter was maybe like 8 months before I, I
finally reached out and the whole thing was just, it was, it
was just really eye opening, youknow that no one is really
exempt from it. And some people have more risk
factors. In hindsight, I certainly had a
(13:13):
lot of risk factors. I had a history of anxiety.
I I didn't have a lot of family support, which is huge risk
factor. There were a lot of things that
contributed. To it.
But after I did get back into therapy, I found the right
provider, I did start getting better, and that really led me
(13:34):
in my practice to want to specialize in working with
postpartum mental health and perinatal mental health.
So after I went through my own healing journey, I went back,
got some more training in this area because like we just talked
about, you don't get a lot of training in this and in Graduate
School. And that's really been my focus
the last five or so years is, isworking with maternal perinatal
(13:56):
mental health. Thank you for sharing.
I think that shame piece comes up a lot right?
A lot of times people may feel OK based on the research I did
in the stories I looked up because again, I don't have
experience in this at all. But it seems like a lot of
(14:18):
people were saying that they hadthis kind of like guilt or shame
about not feeling happy enough after having a baby or feeling
like I should have been able to catch this sooner because I've
gone to therapy before where I've had exposure to this.
I should have had the tools, theskills, like how did this
(14:40):
happen? I should be able to figure it
out myself. I should be strong enough to be
able to whatever it is, all these kind of ideas in their
head. Maybe it's the stigma talking,
Maybe it's this just general idea from Society of how the
experience should be. The shame or guilt prevents a
lot of people from actually reaching out, it sounds like.
(15:02):
Yeah, I mean, we're told it's supposed to be the happiest time
of your life. And everyone wants to come to
meet the baby. And they're all telling you soak
it all up, enjoy every minute. This is the best it's ever going
to be. And with them, when you feel
like it's not something that youwant to soak up every minute, it
makes you think, you know what'swrong with me?
Why am I having such a differentexperience than everyone else
(15:26):
seems to be having? So it definitely fuels a lot of
shame. What do you wish someone had
said to you back then in those moments?
I wish, like you had done at thebeginning of this interview,
someone had asked how I was because everyone was asking how
the baby was, which, you know, is is great.
(15:47):
But as a mom, you almost kind ofgot pushed to the background and
you're just expected to be OK. So I think if someone had really
checked in on how I was doing, had normalized some of it
because I did look around at friends and family who had
babies and everyone seemed like they were getting on so well,
(16:10):
which makes you really feel likethere's something wrong with
you. I wish I, you know, in
hindsight, I know that a lot of people were having more of a
hard time than they were lettingon, but there was a lot of, you
know, presenting really well andsocial media of course, plays a
huge part in that. So I always, the postpartum moms
that I work with, I'm always checking in on how they're using
(16:31):
social media because that's justa huge, it's, it's a really big
thing that can feel a lot of comparison and shame.
Yeah, I imagine that must be really hard, going on social
media and seeing everyone smiling and sharing like all
these. I know I always see like people
(16:53):
I went to high school, but they're all having kids now.
So I see like all these like really cute photos and all the
smiling and the little milestones, right?
And the one month photo shoot, 2month photo shoot in the
matching outfits and all these things.
And it looks like the picture perfect image every single day,
(17:14):
every single photo. And I imagine if you are a mom
experiencing postpartum depression or anxiety and you're
seeing that, it must feel very difficult that comparison,
seeing everyone else's like picture perfect image.
And why am I not feeling that way and experiencing it in that
(17:36):
same way? And am I missing out in some
way? Yeah, 100%.
I mean, even, even when you knowthat it's a highlight reel,
still emotionally our brains when we see images like that
have a way of, you know, questioning, like, what's wrong
with me that I'm not having the same experience as that person.
(17:58):
So I, I, I do believe social media has made postpartum mental
health and all mental health in general, you know, more
challenging in a lot. Of ways how can someone be more
maybe mindful with their use if they know that that's something
they're experiencing utilizing social media in a way that's
kind of mindful and productive for them so they're not going
(18:21):
online stuck in this comparison game that's causing more
distress for them. I always encourage my clients to
kind of check in with themselvesabout their relationship with
social media and ask themselves questions like how do I feel
when I'm on it? You know, I think that's a big
one, like asking how do you feelwhen you're, you're scrolling?
(18:44):
You know, do I feel good? Am I getting valuable
information and tips or am I logging off and feeling, you
know, not so good? Do I, you know, 9 times out of
10, do I feel worse after I'm scrolling?
And, you know, setting boundaries around it too.
If you find that you're not feeling so good on it, limiting
your time. I my New Year's resolution this
(19:08):
year is to not go on social media before like 9:00 AM, which
sounds even terrible that that has to be my limit because I
wish that it was. I wish I could say like I could
do a full detox, but I found that going on in the morning, it
was such a vulnerable time for me that that was really
impacting the rest of my day. So, you know, whether it's
(19:28):
setting detoxes or even mini boundaries like that, putting
those things in place, especially when you're you're
going through something as vulnerable, you know, as as
motherhood. Yeah.
Boost checking in with yourself is so important and we're often
not taught that that's OK and putting ourselves first.
Sometimes realizing that if being online or doing something
(19:54):
is causing me distress or discomfort, I don't have to be
following certain accounts. I don't have to be checking
online and scrolling all day every day.
And we don't realize we have a lot more control than we realize
over how we use our time. Especially our screen time and
(20:14):
sidebar. It's so funny that you I did
that to the 9:00 AM thing. 9:00 AM to 5:00 AM is how I have my
screen time set now for social media.
And every morning I always hit like the remind me in 15 minutes
200 times before 9:00 AM. So I'm failing at it.
But that was also mine, so it's funny that you said that.
(20:34):
Yeah, yeah, the morning is just such a vulnerable time.
But I think none of us like we we weren't taught how to have a
healthy relationship with socialmedia.
It's also new. I mean, even our parents
generation, they didn't have this.
So no one was there to kind of teach us what a healthy
relationship looks like. I mean, that's really what we
(20:55):
should be teaching our kids in schools, right?
It's because this is going to besuch a huge part of their lives.
Like, how can you have a healthyrelationship with this thing and
not one that's wrapped up in social comparison and and
addiction and all the other stuff that it brings?
Absolutely. And that starts with just
(21:16):
learning how to really check in with ourselves and seeing how it
is impacting us and being willing to recognize and
acknowledge it and admit it. Because a lot of times we just
kind of mindlessly scroll and don't even pay attention to how
it's impacting us and then think, I don't know.
(21:37):
I know for me, a lot of times I'm like, I don't know why I
feel so upset with how like my lack of for example, I have my
accounts right. Everyone is together all the
time. It looks like they've people
surrounding them. And then a lot of times I work
(21:58):
from home, for example, so people might be posting with
their Co workers and doing things and then I'm sitting home
working behind a computer screen.
So I'm like convinced all the time that I'm alone.
I have no one. I'm like, I don't know why I
feel this way. But if I just put my phone down
and wasn't looking at Instagram,scrolling all day, seeing those
(22:19):
pictures of everyone together, recognize that it's making me
feel like I'm alone all the time, when instead I could pick
up the phone and use my screen to call someone and make a plan.
Just recognizing how it's impacting us and what else we
could do instead makes such a difference.
And it's been so hard for me because then I have to admit
(22:41):
that I'm also playing a role in how I'm feeling.
Yeah. We do so many things on
autopilot and, and taking that step back and observing what
we're doing versus just mindlessly doing it is it's
really hard to do. But it's great when you can take
that step back and make that connection and then make that
decision and say, OK, maybe I need to, maybe I need a little
(23:03):
bit of a break from this. Yeah, it was a tool I learned in
therapy. On that note, what are some of?
So you said it took eight monthswhen you finally went to therapy
and now you kind of specialize this in this as a therapist.
What are some tools that moms can learn in therapy when
(23:25):
experiencing postpartum depression anxiety?
What are the benefits of really reaching out for support?
Yeah, I think there's so many. So just having that safe space
to talk in itself is a huge benefit where you know you're
not going to be judged. You can share every scary,
shameful thought feeling that you're having with this person
(23:47):
who's going to non judge mentally, be empathic and
supportive to you is huge. It can help you reframe some of
the ways that you're thinking about yourself, about
motherhood. It can help you gain control
over the anxiety that you're having cause anxiety is a huge
(24:07):
part of this too. You know, we want to protect our
babies, and a lot of times our brains put us into
overprotective mode as a very adaptive response to being a
mom. But sometimes that can get kind
of out of hand. So therapy can help us rein that
in a bit so that we're, you know, being vigilant with our
babies, but we're not being overly anxious to a point where
(24:31):
it's negatively impacting us. It can help us work through
traumas that we might have experienced along the way.
One of the biggest learnings forme has been that motherhood is a
pretty complex journey. For a lot of people, it's rarely
a straight line. For a lot of people, it involves
(24:51):
infertility and involves pregnancy losses.
So a lot of women kind of accumulate traumas along the
way. And therapy is the place to
process that. And another big thing that I've
I've learned is that becoming a mother can really bring up a lot
about your own childhood that maybe you thought you resolved,
(25:12):
but has a way of coming back up again.
So therapy can be a really valuable place to to talk about
that and, and you know, explore what that means to heal from
that. But it's so true.
I wasn't even thinking about those last two points.
And that is so true, right? The experience it takes to get
(25:34):
there, a lot of people experience, it takes a while to
be able to get pregnant, right? A lot of people go through such
a long journey and it can face alot of loss, a lot of trauma
along the way, and feel so isolating in so many moments
(25:56):
because a lot of people don't even feel like they can talk
about it. And to have a space where you
can explore that and feel maybe held and heard and seen for the
first time can be amazing. And then as well as things
coming up from your childhood, Iknow a lot of times just with my
(26:16):
parents, even still with me as an adult, we'll be talking about
something and have an experienceand it'll trigger something from
their childhood and the way theyreact.
And then afterwards we come backand my dad's like, sorry, I
reacted based on experience fromme and my dad and had nothing to
do with me and you. And I don't wanna our
(26:37):
relationship to feel that way. And we've come so far with his
communication skills. Wow.
I was gonna say, your dad soundsvery emotionally intelligent.
Sometimes go dad Sometimes, but we've gotten better at that and
being able to recognize it. But a lot of times we don't
recognize it or we don't realizehow much is impacting us or
(26:59):
never have a space to really process it right.
So actually having that space, those are amazing things you can
do in therapy as well. I don't even think about that,
which feels so silly if not eventhinking about those two
aspects. But therapy really can be a
great place. And then for people who maybe
(27:19):
you're struggling to find a therapist or don't have the
resources to access therapy, canyou recommend some starting
points maybe for them until they're able to access therapy
or tools that work for them? Yeah, Postpartum Support
International is a nonprofit group, and they have a lot of
(27:41):
free support groups that are right online and they're geared
towards different types of parents.
So they have support groups for postpartum moms, They have ones
for NICU parents, for parents who have experienced pregnancy
loss, just a ton of military parents, a ton of different
support groups. So I often recommend people
(28:02):
start there if they can access therapy or maybe they're not
ready for therapy. Also, local support groups, like
local mom groups getting connected.
I love mom groups that do like the like walking with the kids
and the strollers because getting outside and being around
people is so healing and so helpful.
(28:25):
So those are definitely some of the resources that I would
recommend. Thank you for sharing.
I think a lot of people don't know that there is resources out
there and that there's free resources out there.
A lot of times when therapy is inaccessible, people feel like
there's nothing for me, and I'm kind of stuck in this.
So knowing about free resources makes such a difference.
(28:48):
And as we are kind of beginning to wrap up, what's I guess one
last thing you'd like to leave our listeners with?
I think just kind of piggybacking off of your first
question, which I absolutely loved, is just to check in on
the moms in your life, I mean, or anyone in your life too.
(29:10):
I think just the point that you really never know what someone's
going through or what struggle is they're carrying.
So just checking in, asking how they are and being ready for the
answer. I think, you know, if we all did
that like once today, you know, how much of A better place would
the world be? Right.
(29:31):
How are you really make such a difference?
And a lot of times we've turned it into a greeting and we don't
say it with intention. And if we really give someone
the space to just be a human being, be vulnerable and exist
and show up as they are, it can make such a difference.
And when we do, if someone needssupport, it can be the
(29:55):
difference between whether or not they ask for it or they
share something that leads to maybe helping them find support
A. 100%, yeah, yeah. Or really be ready to hear the
answer to you because you're right, it is kind of just a
check off box that we we have insocial interactions.
But really asking and then beingready to hear what the answer
(30:18):
is. It's such a beautiful gift to
give someone. So thank you for that today.
Thank you so much for being herewith me with sharing all this
useful information. I wish these were things I
learned, especially in grad school.
Like I wish this was something that was taught to me.
(30:39):
I wish that these conversations are being held more because I
can't imagine the isolation thatso many moms are feeling.
So I appreciate you for having these conversations for the work
that you're doing. How can people learn more about
you and your work? Yeah, well, I I have a therapy
(30:59):
practice. It's called Phoenix Health and
we specialize in maternal mentalhealth.
Our website is join Phoenix health.com.
So I'm also on Instagram and LinkedIn.
My Instagram is Doctor Emily Gornata and yeah, I'd love to
connect. Thank you so much for listening
to Normalize the Conversation. Don't forget to subscribe, rate,
(31:22):
and review. This podcast is an initiative of
Inspiring My Generation, focusing on normalizing the
conversation, bringing educationand awareness to the forefront,
and amplifying global voices to spark change and hope.
Inspiring My Generation is A5O1C3 nonprofit organization on
(31:42):
a mission towards suicide prevention through awareness,
conversation, education, and support.
Connect with us on Instagram at Inspiring My Generation and
visit our website inspiringmygeneration.org to
learn more about our work and how you can make a difference.
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