December 19, 2022 • 52 mins
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In this episode, we talk with Frank Cowell, most recently the CEO of Digitopia Agency, an inbound digital marketing agency with a proprietary methodology. Frank founded what is now Digitopia in 2004, and has evolved the agency from primarily website development and internet marketing to a digital marketing agency. Prior to founding his first agency, Frank worked in Sales and Marketing with Tandy, AT&T, and other technology companies. He is a Veteran of the United States Marine Corps and regularly volunteers his talents to the San Diego AMA, while mentoring young people in the areas of strategy, sales, and marketing.
Tune in to hear:
- What he means by the Growth Engine Concept and how it applies to our audience of operations professionals.
- His distinction between “Operations” vs “Ops” and the confusion of the terms.
- How he differentiates between an Operating manager (COO) vs an Operations Manager.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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Michael Hartmann (00:03):
Hello everyone.
Welcome to another episode ofOpsCast, brought to you by
marketing ops.com.
Powered by the Mo Pros.
I am your host, MichaelHartmann.
Joined today by co-host MikeRizzo.
What's happening, Mike?
Mike Rizzo (00:15):
You know, just trying to stay warm when it's
cold in California.
Everybody laughs at me for that
Michael Hartmann (00:21):
Well, and ironically it's, it's been cold
here in Dallas, but it is warmtoday.
I think it's almost 80 degreesFahrenheit for those of you who
are in like other countries
Mike Rizzo (00:30):
You know the rest of the world that that uses a
system that makes more sense.
Michael Hartmann (00:35):
Right.
Well, I'm excited.
Today we are gonna be talkingwith Cowell most recently, CEO
of Digitopia Agency, which is aninbound digital marketing agency
with, uh, proprietarymethodology.
So, Frank founded what is nowDigitopia in 2004 and has
evolved.
The agency had evolved theagency from primarily website
development and internetmarketing.
(00:56):
By the way, internet marketingis a term I hadn't heard.
10 years to a digital marketingagency.
Uh, prior to founding his firstagency, Frank worked in sales
and marketing with Tandy, at andt and other technology
companies.
He is also a veteran of theUnited States Marine Corps and
regularly volunteers withtalents to the San Diego ama,
American Marketing Association,while also a mentoring young
(01:18):
people in the areas of strategy,sales and marketing.
So, Frank, thanks for joining ustoday.
Thanks for your service.
Frank Cowell (01:23):
absolutely.
Michael and Mike, it's good tobe here with you.
Michael Hartmann (01:27):
Well, great.
So, um, for our listeners, yeah,this was Frank's, Frank's
situation with Digitopia hasrecently changed, so maybe we'll
get a little bit of that alongthe way.
But, um, when Frank, when youand I first chatted and we're
kind of getting ready for this,which.
Uh, for the folks listeninghappens usually several weeks
before we record, uh, sometimesnow months.
(01:48):
But, uh, you talked to us aboutsomething you were calling the
growth engine concept or agrowth engine concept.
Something where marketing salesand how they're, you know, how
they're a growth engine.
So for our listeners, cuz Ithink this is gonna be important
for the rest of theconversation, can you describe
what you mean by that and how itapplies to our audience
primarily of marketing ops,revenue ops, kinds of
(02:10):
professionals.
Frank Cowell (02:13):
Yeah.
You know, when we talk about thegrowth engine in marketing and
sales world, you know what'sconjured up often is, you know,
what are we doing from a leadgen standpoint and.
Marketplace selectionstandpoint, messaging,
filtering.
How do we have a sales processwith BDRs that then handed over
to the team?
Like that whole continuity, thatseamless approach.
(02:35):
And that's very important,obviously.
Um, and then, you know, onceclients are landed, they're
handed over to operations tofulfill the offering.
And I kind of look at it theother direction in.
Um, in my worldview operationsis the heart of the growth
engine.
Uh, in other words, if we don'thave something that's world
(02:56):
class, on the operations side,something that, uh, meets the
hallmarks of a world classoffering such as repeatable,
scalable, delightful, valuable,proven, uh, profitable.
If we don't have thosehallmarks, um, it's going to be
extremely difficult to sell itand then it's gonna be even
harder to market it.
So operations, which as afunction of the business
(03:19):
different than operating, we cantalk about that too in a moment.
Operations being the fulfillmentfunction.
Of the business that is theheart of the growth engine.
And I've been really beatingthat drum lately, especially in
today's world.
It gets just more and moresaturated as the days go by and
there's no end in sight.
It's, we're just never goingback to the glory days of buying
(03:39):
ad time and hitting home runsbecause, uh, we can put out some
really great creative, quoteunquote, um, those days are
gone.
And it really comes back to thefundamentals of business.
Uh, three things.
What's the business strategy?
Do we have a true north?
Do we have a culture ofexcellent implementation?
And then third is operations.
(04:00):
Do we have a world classoffering?
That's really what it has tocome back to if we want to be
able to scale.
So for those of you that arehere in listening, if you're in
the rev op space, the marketingside, the sales side of what I
would start doing if I wereused, I'd start getting real
nosy and start getting real.
With product, with your teamsthat fulfill whatever it is that
(04:21):
you're selling.
I'd get real friendly with CFOs.
I'd get real friendly with, uh,COOs.
Find out what are we doing, uh,to become special in the
marketplace?
What are we doing to dominateour marketplace with just one
offering?
Just, just find one piece.
Where are we just killing it?
Where are we world class andlet's see how we can start with.
Michael Hartmann (04:44):
So I'm glad you, you clarified.
So when you said operations, Ithink at the end you were, I was
gonna ask you do you mean cuz westarted this primarily for
marketing operations folks, butit's kind of grown and we've
attracted other, other peopleincluding revenue operations.
depending on what you call it,like, depending on how you
define that, um, as well asother marketers and stuff.
But you mentioned the wordoffering in there, and I think
(05:07):
my head went right to theofferings that we Yeah.
Uhoh.
Did we lose me?
(05:27):
Fuck.
Mike Rizzo (05:28):
Go ahead and do, uh, my head went right to, and I'll,
I'll, I'll pull it all togetherfor us
Michael Hartmann (05:35):
Okay.
Geez,
Mike Rizzo (05:37):
Don't worry, it's fine.
Frank Cowell (05:39):
Mike and I were looking at each other, like
doing that really great, like,we're gonna hold this,
Mike Rizzo (05:43):
Yeah, we're just,
Frank Cowell (05:44):
know, if there's a
Mike Rizzo (05:44):
sit here and wait and maybe we'll hear him.
Uh, it'll be
Michael Hartmann (05:48):
I had gone on for like two minutes there and.
Mike Rizzo (05:51):
Yeah.
Frank Cowell (05:51):
just trying to see if we had a good recovery spot,
Michael Hartmann (05:53):
All right, so let's start again now.
So where my head went to was,um, that you, you know, you had
offering could be like what the,what the, your company or
organization sells or offers tothe external customers, but were
you also meaning, or did, wasthat what you meant?
(06:13):
Or did you mean more about whatdo you as an operations team
offer to the rest of the um,business?
Frank Cowell (06:19):
No.
So when I say offering, I usethat as.
Generic way to refer to thethings that you sell.
So I, in true marketing sense,we should use the word product,
but then service peoplesometimes get hung up and say,
we don't sell products.
In the service business, yourlabor service is the product.
(06:39):
So offer Ring to me is justwhether it's a product or a
service or you have a bit ofboth.
Whatever your offerings are, thethings that you sell into the
marketplace.
And operations is the, thefunction of the business that
delivers the offerings.
That fulfills the offerings.
And so when we last talked, Ithink that's one of the things
I've.
Passionate about helping my, mypeers and people within the
(07:02):
industry understand, and withinbusiness understand that, you
know, we've, we've taken theword operations and we've kind
of like, you know, we're, we'resling it around quite a bit,
quite a bit.
We've got rev ops and DevOps andcloud ops and sales ops and
marketing ops.
We're just throwing this wordaround like crazy.
And I think that's fine becauseit speaks to the idea that
within our functions we need tooperationalize what we.
(07:25):
Fantastic.
But the, the function ofoperations is not an
overarching, that's over on topof admin, finance, sales,
marketing, whatever.
It is the function of thebusiness that fulfills the
offering.
So in a service based business,that's where your production
delivery team lives.
The people that actually deliverthe labor to the, the, to the
clients.
If that makes.
Mike Rizzo (07:47):
Yeah, that totally makes sense, and that that
definition comes up often whenyou're.
You know, I've got really, um,great sort of professional
network friend, like built outin the agency space.
Um, some colleagues that I'vemet through the years and, you
know, the definition ofmarketing operations for them is
like fundamentally like verydifferent, uh, than what we talk
(08:11):
about in like sort of the B2Bembedded sort of provider.
Within a team, like a SaaScompany for that matter.
Um, and digital assetmanagement, right?
Like that comes in often intothe category of marketing
operations.
When you're looking at the sortof like, I think that bridges
into the world of servicesdelivery and all of that stuff.
(08:33):
Um, And, and so yeah, I thinkwe're, we sling these, you
didn't even mention clientsuccess operations, Frank, like
there's another one for us.
Frank Cowell (08:43):
ops.
I forgot about success ops.
Mike Rizzo (08:46):
So I think all of that makes sense.
I really like that.
At the end of the day though,it's, it's delivering on the
outcome, right?
Whether you're delivering on theoutcome for the client, um, or
if your, if your team, yourorganization is your, We often,
I think, in this community, talkabout it in that way all the
(09:07):
time, right?
Like the, the internal teams areyour clients, and so how do you
operationalize delivery ofbusiness expectations, service
level agreements, those kinds ofthings.
Because at the end of the day,you are a service provider to
your organization, to yourteams.
Frank Cowell (09:25):
1000% and I, I'm a big, I'm a big
Mike Rizzo (09:29):
Hartman's pushing back
Frank Cowell (09:32):
Michael.
What?
Mike Rizzo (09:32):
he's like, I do not provide services to my team.
Michael Hartmann (09:36):
I was, so here's, here's my hot take on
this is that I, I hate, I hatesmaybe too strong a word, but
it's like fingernails on achalkboard.
To me, when people say myinternal customer, cuz I think
it's a bunch.
BS because I think customers arecustomers, right?
So what you're providing as anorganization, um, and this is
(09:56):
where I thought Frank was going,is that we're operationalizing
how to fulfill oroperationalizing how to fulfill
the offering to our endcustomers, the ones who are
actually paying us for our thatand enabling us to have the jobs
that we have.
I, I understand this, the intentof saying internal customers and
trying to be a partner and allthat, but I think the danger in
(10:17):
that is that you forget.
Who are you truly trying toserve as an organization, which
in my view should be yourexternal customers.
Now, if you have a, a.
An organization who's, that'sbuilt around enabling people to
have that mindset, like from aculture standpoint, that you're
(10:39):
gonna treat our people well sothat they will then inter treat
our customers well.
Like I think that makes sense.
But the idea that you, I justalways struggle with like, cuz
it would be really easy to makethings really easy and efficient
for our internal teams, but makeit really hard for our customer.
To work
Frank Cowell (10:55):
So Michael,
Michael Hartmann (10:56):
that's the danger.
Frank Cowell (10:58):
Where I would side with Mike on this, and my
pushback, Michael, would bethis.
Um, there are many roles thathave direct touching with the
customer and then, and they.
Probably KPIs that can bedirectly related to that.
But then there are many peoplein the org, um, that have to
serve someone else in the org toenable them to do their job.
(11:18):
And so I tend to put everyone'srole with a top level mission
statement and as much aspossible, I like that mission
statement of every role todescribe to me how you serve
someone else in theorganization, how you serve
another role or function theorganization, because without
that connectivity, Then we canjust say like someone in admin,
(11:39):
oh, I'm here to serve ourcustomer.
But they never touch customers.
Their job never even comes closeto customers.
But they do enable someone inthe org to do their job better,
to do their job well, which is,is, um, You know, a chain
reaction.
So I, I tend to lean towardsevery single person in the org
has to have a mission statement,a one sentence description of
why their role exists.
(12:00):
And ideally in that missionstatement, there's a reference
to who or what they serve in theorganization.
It's serviced unto something orsomeone else besides, you know,
themselves.
Michael Hartmann (12:12):
Yeah, I, I think maybe we're not as far off
as, I mean, I, like I said,that's like my hot take, but I
think my point is, I, I, I thinkit's more of a mental.
Model for me, like I want, Idon't want people to forget that
they're, if they're serving in arole that doesn't directly
connect, work with externalcustomers, that they're, they're
enabling somebody else who maybe enabling somebody else who's
(12:32):
gonna be providing the best, youknow, interaction with end
customers.
And I think, I don't want peopleto forget that connection
because we
Mike Rizzo (12:41):
think it's a really good call out.
I think it's a really good callout.
I, I, I don't think, I actuallythink we're all saying very much
the same thing, but you're.
Calling attention to animportant nuance, which over the
last decade and decade plus, youknow, could have been lost in
translation for sure.
Um, in a world where a cultureor an organization, uh, or let's
(13:04):
just say in an organizationwhere they weren't necessarily
thinking about customer journeyor customer experience, um, and
the outcome wasn't in favor ofhow do we delight a customer?
There was definitely a timewhere sales or marketing or
anyone else in any functioncould have said, I need the
(13:25):
ability to send more emails and,and that could have resulted in
some terrible outcome.
Like, oh, great.
You get to just spam people.
Uh, not, I need the ability tosend more emails to a very
specific audience because I havea KPI that I needed to influence
because we know that thisparticular ICP that we're going
(13:46):
after is the right buyer for us,and so I need to be enabled.
Right.
And that's a totally differentball game.
Frank Cowell (13:54):
Yeah.
And I also think that it's thejob of the CEO to, um, reinforce
often the organization's trueNorth, and that true North has
some sort of impact on somebody,whether it's customers or a
marketplace or a community, um,in the, in the mission that goes
along with that.
So, I, it, it really, I thinkCEOs can do a, a world of good
(14:17):
by reminding everyone in the.
Why they're doing what they'redoing and how it ultimately
impacts the mission that they'redriving towards.
Good CEOs will remind the orgoften of that and reinforce it.
Michael Hartmann (14:30):
Yeah, sorry, I, I took us down a rabbit hole
that I didn't intend to, but I,you know, it's, it's just one of
those ones that Mike, Mike knowsthis from doing this for almost
two years.
Like, there's a couple ofbuttons that if you push on me,
there's gonna be like, I'm gonnacome back at it with a reaction.
Found it or not, so
Mike Rizzo (14:48):
one needs to know.
Accounting
Michael Hartmann (14:50):
Right, exactly.
They don't, they need tounderstand finance, which is a
different.
Mike Rizzo (14:55):
Damn it.
I went the wrong way.
Either way.
You'd think after two years Iwould've got that right.
Oh,
Michael Hartmann (15:00):
You would, I would, I would expect that Mike,
we're gonna have to have aconversation later.
Mike Rizzo (15:04):
I know.
Sorry.
Michael Hartmann (15:07):
no.
So, but I, you know, I, and partof this goes back, I will just
wrap that up, right?
Part of this goes back to a bookthat I got actually at a big
worldwide marketing thing at abig company I worked for, and
the author wrote this book, it'skind of a, who've moved my
cheese style thing, right?
Really short pi.
Pa, uh, chapters in a short bookanyway, but there was one, it
was just two facing pages thatbasically the, the gist of that
(15:31):
chapter in quote right airquotes was, you know, everyone's
paycheck should have, this iscustomer money that, like, I
used to have a photocopy of thatat my desk everywhere I worked
for.
10, 15 years.
Just because it was a good Remito your point.
Right.
It was a reminder.
So it could have been the CEO orleader of a company doing it.
Yeah.
(15:51):
But it was for, that was my, myinternalized the way I
internalized it.
So, um, maybe we can put a
Frank Cowell (15:58):
and I, I would, I would, uh, Twist that a little
bit more too.
This is our reward for bringingvalue to our customer,
Michael Hartmann (16:05):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Frank Cowell (16:07):
We, this is a result of bringing value to
somebody and, um, the more youmake, the more value you've
delivered.
Michael Hartmann (16:16):
Yeah, totally love it.
Um, okay, so we'll get back ontrack here a little bit.
Um, so you know, another thingyou, you, you sort of, a term
you used with me when we werekind of prepping for this was
something you called, if I getthis right, momentum Priority
Management, which.
(16:37):
Is method.
You are, you know, you, you wereeither building or thinking
about or used.
That is a little bit of a, aflywheel model of some source in
terms of, I guess,prioritization.
So fill in the gaps there of howmuch I screwed that up.
But yeah, what is, what do youmean by that and how could it
apply to our listeners?
Frank Cowell (16:57):
So what I mean by momentum priority management is
when I think.
Stepping back and looking at thebusiness and trying to
understand where does theorganization need to unblock
something to create the mostmomentum for growth At the
highest level, we wanna look atthe functions of the business,
and there are six core functionsunderneath the top two execs of
(17:20):
CEO and coo.
Those six functions aremarketing, sales, operations,
admin, finance, and r and d,right?
Those are the generic sixstandard major functions of a.
For the most part, generallyspeaking, everything flows under
one of those six functions,right?
So when we think about thosefunctions, um, we want to think
about the order in which wefocus on them.
(17:41):
So what I, I typically tend todo is line those up after the
CEO's responsible for True Northand making sure that there's a
team to support Tru North.
The COO is responsible formaking sure there's a culture of
elite implementation.
And then we get into the, thefunctions and the very, very
first one, this goes back towhat we talked about earlier, is
(18:01):
operations, is the, is theoffering world class.
And that's what the operationsteam is there to make sure it's
the product, the service thatwe're selling.
Is it world class?
Is it, uh, and again, my worldclass checklist is repeatable,
scalable, profitable, provable,uh, valuable to clients, right?
Um, easy to buy, easy to easy.
(18:25):
So do we have a world classoffering?
If we don't, yes, we might havelead gen problems.
Yes, we might have salesconversion rate problems, and
it's up to those teams to focuson those.
But the number one focus of theentire org should be that world
class offering.
If you don't already have it,that comes before marketing
sales or anything else afterthat.
The next one that's in dominoorder or momentum priority
(18:45):
order, uh, is the sales process.
Why?
Because now that we have a worldclass offering, we actually have
to validate.
That people have this need andthat people want to buy it, that
people will buy it and are asevidenced by really high close
rates.
We can get people into meetingsand we can close them at a high
rate, and we've got a process torepeat that.
(19:06):
Once we've nailed that, then wego to marketing.
Marketing then becomes the, thebottleneck.
It becomes the next momentum.
Area that we wanna focus on oncewe've solved those other things.
And the reason it comes afterthose things is because it, when
you have a world class offering,it makes selling easier.
And then when you have thatdialed in, now we use marketing
for scale.
(19:26):
And that's what a lot of smallerbusinesses don't understand.
You don't do marketing as yourstandard growth engine.
You do it for scale.
Once the offering is proven, andonce your sales pro process is
proven, I see way too many orgsthinking they have a lead gen.
When in reality they have anoffering problem or they have a
sales system problem marketingis for scaling, right?
(19:48):
It's not for proving outoffering.
It's not for proving out, uh,the, the val, the value of the
offering and being able to closeconsistently.
After that, then we go to admin,then we go to finance.
So putting them in that ordernets you the most momentum
possible.
There's a really great video.
You could find on YouTube where,um, a gentleman knocks over
(20:09):
these dominoes and he startswith a domino that's probably
around, you know, two incheshigh.
It's a just a normal,
Michael Hartmann (20:17):
I've,
Frank Cowell (20:18):
and at the end there's this massive 200 pound
slab that he's able to knockover.
And the reason he is able to dothat is because he lined up the
dominoes in the right.
If the second domino was the 200pound slab right after the two
inch domino, it would'vestopped.
He wouldn't have been able toknock it over.
(20:39):
And so that's what MomentumPriority Management is about.
It's about making sure that asan organization, we know our
true North, and we have a teambuilt that matches our true
North with core values andexcited about the vision of the
mission.
We have a culture of gettingstuff done.
Elite implementation, no matterwhat our problem is in the org,
no matter what we're tackling.
(20:59):
We get stuff done.
We're consistent.
We hit our targets, we keep ourpromises, we're accountable.
We make decisions towards thetrue north.
Then from there we go intooffering and so on.
So that that order is socritical because if you focus on
one later as an obsession of theorg, but you haven't solved a
previous, you're going to bespinning your wheels.
You're going to not be nearly asefficient and gain the momentum
(21:21):
that you possibly.
Michael Hartmann (21:24):
It's interesting.
A couple of thoughts and maybe afollow up, but what my, my big
takeaway from this was I, I whenyou were describing marketing as
the thing for scale, you know,after kind of get, getting the
sales process figured out, I, Iknow I've seen multiple times
over the course of the last fewyears in different communities,
people in marketing saying like,marketing, marketing ops.
Right.
Can't solve for.
(21:45):
Product market fit, right?
So,
Frank Cowell (21:48):
Thousand.
Michael Hartmann (21:49):
um, it can maybe temporarily fill a little
bit of a gap, but it's nevergonna be a long term thing.
Um, this may be getting into,you know, the part that you made
a, you kind of hinted at adistinction between operations
and operating function, and somaybe this is part of it, but
the, uh, I'll ask the questionthis way you, the way you
(22:10):
described, like getting thatworld class, um, offering out
there is an operations thing.
Is there an implication therefrom an organization standpoint
that you need something likemarketing operations or revenue
operations to be elite and inplace to support that at that,
(22:32):
that in the first domino stage?
Or does that tend to come laterwhen you're dealing with sales
and marketing?
Uh, ramping up in the futurestages.
Frank Cowell (22:43):
I, I tend to think.
I don't wanna offend anybodywho's listening.
I tend to think that manyorganizations, if they focused
on the fundamentals of what Italked about, right?
Do we have a true north and arewe abiding by it?
Are we world classimplementation is our offering
world class?
I tend to think if you keepgoing back to those questions
(23:04):
and just solving for thosequestions in each function, it
would be much, much later inyour.
Journey that you would need amarketing operations team, a
revenue operations team, and soon.
That being said, when you get tothe point where you truly need
it, then it's about, it's abouttaking what's already working
(23:26):
and now sending it to anotherlevel.
I am not a fan of.
We need revenue operations tofix something that's just
fundamentally broken.
Does that make sense?
I think once you have thingsthat are fundamentally working
well, and now we're trying toleverage things at scale, then
things like revenue operationsmake sense.
(23:46):
It's a lot like, you know, if wehad a, a big, uh, lever and, uh,
the boulder we were trying tolift was just a little five
pound thing.
It's just kind of a waste,right?
We don't.
A big lever, we could just pickit up with our hands.
But if on the other end was a500 pound boulder, that same
lever with our same exact force,no extra energy, no extra
(24:08):
effort, we can lift it.
And so we've got leverage.
And same thing withorganizations.
Once you reach a certain mass,once you reach a certain, um,
Level of momentum and think thefundamentals are working.
Now we can use things likerevenue operations to do things
at scale and leverage data,leverage throughput, leverage a
(24:29):
size of a customer base thatotherwise it just doesn't have
the same impact when you're muchsmaller.
Um, marketing operations, samething.
You know?
Now when we are ready to dosomething at scale, then yes,
the idea that we have thingsoperationalized is way more
important because now we haveleverage something, something to
leverage.
Michael Hartmann (24:49):
Yeah.
I'm curious, Mike, you know,you've got a lot more like early
stage company experience than Ido.
Does that resonate with you,that kind of domino model in the
order or is it, have you seen,I'm just curious.
I, I have, I don't have enoughexperience in that early stage
company world to.
To have a strong opinion,shocker.
Mike Rizzo (25:10):
Yeah, I, it definitely resonates.
I think, um, there's a balancenow.
There's something happeningtoday that wasn't happening 10
years ago.
Uh, and that is the executiveswho have been around long enough
(25:33):
or who have at least conferredwith other leaders in their
space on.
What should I be payingattention to?
You know, and Frank, you'recalling attention to a bunch of
different things that are reallyimportant.
Um, they're gonna ask questionsthat are actually hard to answer
if you don't have an operationallike rigor in place that allows
(25:56):
you to answer those questions.
So, by way of example, um, youknow, we are trying to
operationalize our business fora go to market product.
And, uh, we figured out our icp.
We've made some bets and itseems like it's working, but the
only evidence I have right nowis that we've closed a few
deals.
I don't know what channels thosedeals necessarily came from.
(26:18):
And if I ask the question, wheredid the leads come from?
If nobody built the rigor to beable to track that right from
the very beginning, thatquestion's not gonna be answer.
And so there is a naturalinflection point at some stage
of any early company thateventually says, right, somebody
(26:38):
please lay a foundation that issuper, super basic that we can
at least do some real simplereporting off of that.
I can understand and trust,
Frank Cowell (26:48):
That I, I would thousand percent agree.
Mike Rizzo (26:51):
yeah, that takes expertise though, right?
Like that takes an operationsperson.
Now maybe you don't have to hirean operations.
You don't have to hire amarketing ops expert full-time,
but you should probably contractsomebody who knows what they're
doing.
Frank Cowell (27:05):
Yeah, absolutely.
Getting those foundations inplace.
Are definitely critical.
I think I was more so referringto, I see a lot of orgs trying
to grow these various ops teamsthat otherwise would be
unnecessary if they had justobsessed about some
fundamentals.
Core, core underlying technologyto make sure that we have, uh,
(27:28):
seamless data between the flowof marketing, sales, operations,
and so on.
Absolutely a thousand percent.
I think another thing thatbecomes a trigger point is,
Ultimately, like I think aboutRev and I think about why a Rev
team would even exist.
And in my opinion, the onlyreason a Rev team would exist is
to extract more, uh, revenue andor profit to the bottom line
(27:51):
that otherwise is not currentlyhappening.
And so if there is opportunityon the table to do.
And a then a rev team makessense.
Why?
Well, normally the COO isresponsible for finding the, and
analyzing the profitability.
What is happening within myfunctions
Mike Rizzo (28:09):
Mm-hmm.
Frank Cowell (28:10):
can inflect revenue and drop more profit
online.
At some point, that becomes toobig of a job for the COO due to
all the data throughput and thetechnology.
At some point that becomesoutside their technical scope,
not their strategic.
Mike Rizzo (28:25):
Mm-hmm.
Frank Cowell (28:26):
And so in my opinion, that becomes a
triggering point where, hey,team members, uh, to assist in
enabling that to happen.
That otherwise what's easier forthat person to tackle when they
were smaller is now needed,which is why I then, uh, often
say in my worldview, the Revteam is really a right hand to
the c o because they're enablingthat person to do, to do the
(28:50):
mission of their job thatotherwise was already there.
Does that make.
Mike Rizzo (28:53):
Yeah.
Yeah, that totally makes sense.
And I, I think just, just goingback to some of the points you
were making earlier.
Actually, you know, I think itbacks a lot of the thinking
that, you know, you can't go toa, or you shouldn't, in my
opinion, go to a marketing opsperson.
(29:16):
You know, to echo what you'resaying before, to try to figure
out your go to market.
Like, like, like they're notyour growth strategist.
They're not your, your, yourgrowth hacky, like come up with
all kinds of new ways to try tobring a product to the market
person.
They can create the pipelinesand all those other things.
(29:36):
And, and look, some marketingops professionals, they move
into that role and that's good,but they are distinctly
different function.
And so I, what I was hearingearlier about like, you know,
trying to find product marketfit and all this other stuff,
like, I actually really likethat because at the end of the
day, if you're hiring somebodyfor an ops role, it shouldn't be
(29:58):
because they're your growthhacker Like that isn't, that
isn't their actual job.
So please stop trying to lumplike, Growth hacking in with
this idea that that's like whata marketing automation person
marketing operations persondoes.
Like, they're different roles,they're different functions.
They serve different purposes.
And so I, I actually liked thatyou were pulling those things
(30:18):
apart, but yeah, I, uh, all ofwhat you said made sense.
I just wanted to,
Frank Cowell (30:23):
The, the, the slash ops as we add ops onto all
these different, uh, things likemarketing, sales dev and all
that.
Again, to me, I think it's thereto operationalize what's
happening in their world andalso to be connectivity to other
functions within the business.
But typically, um, that meansthat person is following someone
(30:46):
else's strategy, right?
There's the strategy of theexecutive team of here's the
approach to our growth andhere's where we're pointed for
our growth, and here are the bigdecisions that we think will
lead to our.
Now the folks below that have tofigure out how to make it
happen.
By the time we get to marketingops, the how they're figuring
(31:08):
out how to make happen arethings like repeatability and
interconnectedness andconsistency and data exposure.
Michael Hartmann (31:18):
That
Frank Cowell (31:18):
really far.
That's really far away from thebusiness strategy.
Not saying those people can'televate and be capable one day,
but at that point, you know, wewant to be really clear.
I often.
Um, cuz we, a lot of peoplethrow the word strategy around
strategy versus tactic, strategyversus tactic.
Some people will say, oh, wehave an SEO strategy.
And um, and that may be true,but what I like to remind people
(31:43):
of is every person that that hasa tactic to their strategy, that
tactic is someone else'sstrategy.
And that strategy is someoneelse's tactic.
Does that make sense?
Mike Rizzo (31:54):
Mm-hmm.
Michael Hartmann (31:55):
Hmm.
Yeah.
Frank Cowell (31:56):
Your tactic becomes the next level down
strategy.
So everyone's got thisstraddling of strategy and
tactics, and so we just need toall be very aware of our role
and what we're there to do.
And so we have to be clear like,what is the strategy I'm
following, which is someoneelse's tactic?
Then what is my strategy toimplement that tactic?
Michael Hartmann (32:21):
Right.
What, so would you also agreethat as you as an organization
evolves and, and matures, right?
As you add op, these operationoperational functions for the
different functional areas, thatthere should be a feedback
mechanism that should theninform back to the strategy from
(32:43):
the other team that might havebeen supporting?
Okay.
A fair assessment.
Frank Cowell (32:49):
Yeah, I think any, anywhere and everywhere we can
have feedback loops and worktogether as unified teams, which
is why I love the idea of oncean organization's ready for it
and it's justified.
I love the idea of Rev cuz we'rereally, uh, unifying that
marketing sales operations loop,right.
What marketing, sales success.
Um, so we're really unifyingthat, that thread, uh, and
(33:12):
making sure that the throughputis just consistent, seamless,
not only in terms of customerexperience, but then the, the
data and then how do we makesense of it so we can leverage
it for better performance.
Um, so anywhere we can infusethat kind of thinking throughout
the org.
I am, I am absolutely all for,um, what was the heart of your
(33:33):
question again?
I was, wanted to make sure
Michael Hartmann (33:34):
No, no, I, so, no, I think you did.
Like, here's why I was askingthe questions.
I think.
I think folks, Listening who aremarketing operations roles is,
this could come across as alittle bit of a disheartening
message, right.
Which that.
But I think, and you hit on whatI thought would be the point,
which is fairly consistent withwhat we've heard from other
(33:55):
guests, is that I think the waythat I'll keep the marketing op,
but it could be revenue ops, uh,one of the ways in which we.
Show additional value back tothe organization is by
leveraging our access andunderstanding of the data that
we are really a part ofenabling, and that that's where
(34:15):
insights can come from.
And it's not just reporting backnumbers, it's re like looking at
the numbers, understanding whatit, what it's telling us, right.
The storytelling piece of it.
And I, I think that's where Iwas going was like, I think it
could be the message you could,people could be hearing is that
it's just a.
D there, there's not a strategicelement to what they do or
(34:37):
could.
Not a possibility.
And I don't, I didn't thinkthat's what you meant, so that's
why I
Frank Cowell (34:40):
No, no, not at all.
So, so I think what, what I, letme be clear from my role to any
other role in the org, we needto be very self-reflective and
understand where we are thestrategic person and where we're
the tactical person.
And we all have both.
Michael Hartmann (34:57):
Yeah.
Frank Cowell (34:57):
And so it's being mindful of, um, kind of goes
back to what Mike said earlier,which is how are we serving?
Someone else or something elsein the org.
So this, uh, this mindset ofservice to each other in the
org.
And so I think regardless ofwhatever level you're at, being
mindful of that and then alsounderstanding like why, why the
(35:19):
org exists and what its visionand mission are, and how can
you.
Obsess about how your work canimpact that, but then your
function, so if we're talkingabout marketing, right?
Like the whole job ofmarketing's function is to drive
awareness and leads contacts inthe database, right?
Like qualified leg gen awarenessand qualified leg gen.
So you have a bit of a long termplay and a bit of a short term
play.
So if you're in marketing opsand you, you know, like it's
(35:41):
awareness and legion, right?
Like those are the holy grails,the long term short term.
Then I would become, as amarketing ops person, I would
start to become very curious ona regular basis about the things
you're seeing in the data, inthe systems, in the
interactions, in the, the, your,the throughput that's coming
across your computer.
And I'd start to get verycurious and start to ask
(36:01):
questions and say, what is thistelling me about our opportunity
to drive awareness?
What is this telling me aboutour opportunity to drive
qualified leg gen?
And once.
Once you find something thatmakes you really curious, that
you think is worthinvestigating, then go and
investigate it.
Go and investigate it and startcoming up with a hypothesis that
says, you know, I saw this andit made me curious about our
(36:26):
opportunity to drive morelong-term awareness.
So therefore, I did thisresearch and I found this, and
my hunch is if we do X, Y, andZ, we might see this as a
result.
If you can formulate thatsentence, As a result of going
through the exercises and themotions, you, you're going, no
matter what role you're in,you're gonna be wildly valuable.
(36:48):
So I think people that are in,you know, let's add on the ops,
cloud ops, marketing, ops, dev,op, whatever, right?
When you're in those types ofroles and you're really there to
like operationalize and enablethese, the data on the systems
and the cross functionality,stay curious.
That is how you're going todrive impact, and that's how
you're going to, you know, raiseyour own stock within the
(37:09):
organization.
Michael Hartmann (37:10):
Yeah, I, I think the curiosity is gonna be,
I think that theme right thereis gonna be a critical one, and
I think.
If you talk to enough marketingops folks, one of the, one of
the consistent themes you'llhear about what makes good
marketing ops people iscuriosity, right?
They wanna understand how thingswork.
So what I would add, the nuancething is like follow that
(37:31):
curiosity when you see somethingthat, you know, stands out and
figure it out and try and thendo that exercise that you just
described.
I wanna go back to you, you,the, the operations versus
operating distinction that youmade, cuz truth be told, like
from our conversation, Few weeksago, I still, it feel like I'm
(37:52):
not clear about what you'remaking, how you're making that
distinction.
And I dunno if it has to do withjob titles or something else,
like, but what, how do youdistinguish operations from
operating and what's the kind ofthe, the, um, I don't know the
context in which you might useone or the other terms from your
(38:12):
perspective.
Frank Cowell (38:14):
So operating is typically where there's some
confusion sometimes with folksis like the COO for example.
So oftentimes people thinkthat's the operations head.
But that's the operating head.
So COOs, chief operatingOfficer, not chief operations
Officer.
Little slight difference in thewords, but huge difference.
(38:35):
So the coo, the operatingofficer, they're the ones who
head up the functions, they,they the head functions of
marketing, sales, operations,admin, finance, and r and d
report to that in.
Does that make sense?
So the COO doesn't just manageoperations, they manage
marketing, sales, operations,admin, finance, r and d.
(38:56):
So those heads report to thatindividual operations is one of
those functional heads that sitspeer to marketing, sales, admin,
finance, and r and d.
Underneath operations would beall of everybody having to do
with the delivery of the offer.
So again, if you're in aservices based business, that's
your, that's your, uh, you haveyour head of operations and you
(39:17):
have your client success managerand you have your account, uh,
strategists and accountdirectors, and you have your,
you know, service executionpeople.
Um, if you're a physicalproduct, it's people that are
doing assembly and, and so onand so forth, right?
So it's everything to do withfulfillment of what was.
Michael Hartmann (39:37):
So if I place us back, so the operating piece
really has to do with more ofthe whoever is, whether there's
coo, but somebody who's theleader within a company that
has, uh, responsibility forthose functions, including the
operations functions that mayhave.
And over time probably haveleaders of each of those sort of
(39:59):
functional operational teams.
Is that right?
Frank Cowell (40:01):
Correct.
And that the operations aregonna have is going to have its
own head.
Right.
So we might call that a vicePresident of operations, but a
lot of, um, distinction thatshould come out of that is the
vice president of operationsisn't over marketing, sales,
admin, finance.
They're peer to those folks.
Over those folks is the coo orwhat you could call president or
(40:24):
general manager.
One of those three titles oftengets used for that individual.
Then above that individual isobviously the ceo.
Um, and so I just think it's areal important distinction so
that when we talk aboutoperations in our world of rev,
op, DevOps, cloud ops, marketingops, we should be clear like
operations as the major businessfunction is the offering.
(40:45):
Operations as a concept oroperationalizing things isn't
necessarily a core, uh, distinctfunction of the.
Michael Hartmann (40:55):
Okay.
I'm curious, uh, this is tototal, well, it's, it's a
related thing.
So I've seen some conversationsonline and stuff with, um,
marketing leaders in particularlike CMOs who typically their
title is chief MarketingOfficer.
And, uh, there's been some, uh,articulated that they think they
(41:16):
should be.
Market officer, cuz I thinktheir role is a little different
than just just marketing.
That they have responsibilityfor understanding customers and
what the market, you know, whatthe market space is available,
what the, you know, totalmarket, total available market
is and things like that that gobeyond.
I think what people outside ofmarketing probably in particular
(41:38):
think of what marketing does.
Right.
So is, is it a similardistinction where you're trying
to like separate.
I mean, I think it sounds likeit's a, it's really, um, what
you're trying to articulate isthat whoever's that head of
responsibility for the thingslike admin, a, admin,
(41:58):
accounting, finance, whatever,and then the operations
functions is a operating leader
Frank Cowell (42:05):
Yeah, the op, yeah, the operating leader, the
coo or the GM or the.
It.
One of the, pick a title theymanage five to six.
You know, this is genericallyspeaking, right?
Five to six leaders, you know,the leader of marketing, the
leader of sales, leader ofoperations, the leader of admin,
the leader of finance, theleader of r and d, right?
Like, that's a generic corporateorg structure.
(42:27):
And so the COO there is, thereis a head of operations that
the, that reports to the coo.
Michael Hartmann (42:33):
Yeah.
So I'm curious to, do you, doyou, sorry.
Oh, I thought, thought Mike wasabout to jump in.
So I'm curious if you, in, inthis model that you're
articulating, is there, is therean implication there that, uh,
and I think I heard this alittle bit, is it.
Some of these operationsfunctions that say marketing
(42:54):
operations currently usuallyreports to head of marketing.
Um, say sales operations usuallyhas reports to a head of sales.
Are you making it a suggestionthat those roles should not
report back into thosefunctional lines, but actually
to the operating leader withinan organization?
Frank Cowell (43:11):
No, no.
Marketing ops is in themarketing function.
Sales ops is in the salesfunction, and so.
Michael Hartmann (43:20):
Okay, now I'm, okay.
I'm gonna go back like, how,then, how do these other, what
operations functions wouldreport to the head of operating
this operating leader?
Frank Cowell (43:30):
So it's, it's the head of marketing,
Michael Hartmann (43:32):
Okay.
Oh, okay.
So the, okay.
Frank Cowell (43:34):
head of operations, head of admin, head
of finance.
I'll report to the coo.
Michael Hartmann (43:38):
Got it.
Okay, now I, so then there'ssecond level.
See, I should have beenlistening closer.
Frank Cowell (43:45):
So then to go to your point, to go to your
question about like, uh, youknow, head of marketing versus a
head of Marette or Marks, Imean, I think that's really up
to that org where they're tryingto go and you know, who serves
who.
And gi give me a why.
What's the justification, whywould that role exist?
And, and, um, how does itinterconnect to marketing?
(44:05):
And um, ultimately how is itgonna help the organization?
Mike Rizzo (44:12):
Yeah, I.
Frank Cowell (44:12):
it's just a, if it's just a data and, and
feedback and insights that justaffect marketing decisions, well
then they probably should justreport to the head of marketing.
Mike Rizzo (44:22):
Mm.
Yeah.
I think we're seeing, we'reseeing a roll up of, um,
functions like marketing ops,sales ops, et cetera, roll into,
um, sort of a, a umbrella,categorical sort of operational
organization.
It's.
(44:43):
Basically becoming rev ops now.
Um, but I think there's stillalways, you know, there's a,
there's a need to, essentiallyin the world we're all sitting
in, uh, offices have that personsitting in that, that
environment, right?
With that team interacting onthose daily meetings.
Um, even though you might reportdirectly to someone in another
(45:06):
operational function,
Frank Cowell (45:08):
Yeah.
You know, like when we thinkabout, and I mentioned this a
moment ago, like in myworldview, who I think Rev
reports into, um, I think it'simportant that I like the
worldview that the rev.
Um, is a, a small butspecialized team that is a right
hand of the COO because itreally truly is about enabling
(45:29):
that COO to fulfill theirpersonal mission within the org,
which is, you know, increaserevenue, drop more profit to the
bottom line.
And so, um, and I think that's,in my worldview, I think that's
important that they have thatkind of connectedness to the COO
because they oftentimes willhave to influence what's
happening in marketing.
(45:50):
And operations as they try totie those three together.
And so that function, that roleneeds the authority that needs
the clout of being the COO'sright hand team.
Does that make sense?
Because I think what I've oftenseen in a lot of these
organizations, they get hung upon, well, when is this Rev?
And when is this just marketingstuff?
(46:12):
Or when is this Rev and when isthis just sales or client
services stuff?
And.
I, I've personally seen a lot ofRev people.
Then just all of a suddenthey're just doing regular old
marketing work.
And so there's a lot ofconfusion as to like, who's got
the, the authority to and whydoes the role even exist?
So, uh, I personally think,again, rev exists purely to, to
(46:37):
maximize revenue potential anddrop more to the bottom line.
That's it.
That's the only reason exists.
Mike Rizzo (46:44):
I think, I think that's like the, I, you know,
I'll hold my place and say Ireserve the right to to, uh,
adopt a different definition atsome point.
But right now, I, I think thatmight be one of the best
definitions I've thought of orheard.
(47:04):
Not I've thought of.
I didn't think of it.
You did uh, heard in, in thisspace.
Like really, really?
Frank Cowell (47:15):
I just think we have to get, we just have to get
really clear on each function ofthe business.
And again, I outlined the, thesix core corporate functions,
and then you have the two, whichare CEO and coo.
I think we have to get reallyclear on why each function
exists, so when we wanna add revops as either another function
or uh, a major subfunction, wehave to also answer that
(47:39):
question, why does it evenexist?
Mike Rizzo (47:42):
mm-hmm.
Frank Cowell (47:42):
and because without it, businesses like
business survived all theseyears without it.
So why are we adding it?
Right?
It's to maximize revenuepotential and drop more to the
bottom line that otherwise isnot happening.
Michael Hartmann (47:58):
I think it's
Mike Rizzo (47:58):
can see the, I can see the mission, the mission
statements coming in reallyhandy In your, in your, uh,
architecture of what we've justdescribed through this episode,
like,
Frank Cowell (48:07):
Oh, yeah.
In, in any, uh, org that I haveor any, uh, company I coach.
E, every role gets a missionstatement, a one sentence
mission, which is why does thefunction exist?
Why does the role exist?
Mike Rizzo (48:20):
Mm-hmm.
Michael Hartmann (48:20):
I like that it's, it's interesting the way
you described that, that rolemy, I was thinking that sounds
maybe somewhat similar to like achief of staff.
Type role, right?
It's cuz you want somebody whokinda has carries the authority
of the, the use, the c coo inthis case, but maybe doesn't
(48:43):
have that direct oversight ofthe individual operations
functions.
Um, so they're really there to,to ensure that there's a, a
consistent focus across those todo what you described, right?
Maximize revenue potential and,and drop more profit to the
bottom line.
I like that.
Interesting.
Frank Cowell (49:03):
Yeah.
In fact, that dotted line's agreat word, Michael.
In, in, in that worldview there,there would definitely be dotted
line of marketing, sales andoperations over to a rev leader.
Um, which basically says, um,Anytime we need to create
consistency in the declineexperience so we can maximize
(49:24):
retention and repeat buys.
Why?
Cuz we're, we're maximizingrevenue potential.
We're dropping more to thebottom line.
Anytime we need those systemstalking, anytime we need that
consistency there and thisperson has something to
operational lies across thosethree functions, then we're,
we're going to listen to thatperson.
We're, we're going to, gonna paya lot of attention.
(49:48):
Because they're going to bemeasured on how well those
strategic initiatives result inmore revenue and more profit.
And if it's not, if the revfunction can't prove that, and
it's actually not doing that inthe org, no reason for its
existence.
Michael Hartmann (50:05):
Yeah, it's interesting.
So, uh, I wish we had more time.
Frank, this has been like, I, Ifeel like I'm gonna walk out
here and I'm gonna think of likehalf a dozen more questions that
I'd love to ask you, but we'llhave to, we'll have to leave it
at that.
So thank you for your time.
If, if folks who are listeningwant to keep up with what you're
(50:26):
doing or connect with you,what's the best way for them to
do that?
Frank Cowell (50:31):
Yeah, come connect with me on LinkedIn, Frank Koel.
Just gimme.
A search, uh, my LinkedIn isslash frank r ko, l c w e l.
You can also, um, my newwebsite, uh, with my new
ventures launching here soon,which by the time this podcast
air should be ready.
It's called Revenue Ranch is mynew business, and that is
revenue ranch.com.
Michael Hartmann (50:51):
Revenue Ranch.
Uh, and I, now I realize Imispronounced your name, so
sorry about that.
I usually ask ahead of time.
Frank Cowell (50:58):
Don't, don't worry about it.
It's often, uh, I think ourfamily mispronounces it to begin
with.
Anyway, it's probably.
The way you say it, to behonest,
Michael Hartmann (51:08):
Oh, that's funny.
Well, that's all right.
I do, I do try like this.
One thing I've learned is justtry to get that right.
So shame on me.
That's what I get for, it's likewhen I do, I forget to look over
my shoulder when I'm changinglanes driving, right?
And then there's somebody there.
Um,
Frank Cowell (51:21):
yes.
I, I, I had that happen to merecently.
Michael Hartmann (51:24):
It'll be my reminder to ask the next time.
Well, Frank, really appreciateit.
Some great insights, some greatstuff to think about now, um,
and I'm sure our listeners willbe.
Really noodling on this for aswell if they're like me.
So thank you for that.
Mike, thank you for joining and,and jumping in.
And thanks to all our listenersfor supporting us.
If you've got questions orsuggestions, uh, or topics you
(51:47):
want us to talk about in futureepisodes or suggestions for
guests or you wanna do any ofthose things, feel free to hit
us up.
You can get ahold of Naomi,Mike, or me, uh, on LinkedIn or
on the Slack or whatever.
Until next time everyone.
Bye.
Mike Rizzo (52:03):
Bye
Frank Cowell (52:03):
Hi, Michael.
Mike.
Take care.
See you folks.
Hello everyone.
Welcome to another episode ofOpsCast, brought to you by
marketing ops.com.
Powered by the Mo Pros.
I am your host, MichaelHartmann.
Joined today by co-host MikeRizzo.
What's happening, Mike?
Mike Rizzo (00:15):
You know, just trying to stay warm when it's
cold in California.
Everybody laughs at me for that
Michael Hartmann (00:21):
Well, and ironically it's, it's been cold
here in Dallas, but it is warmtoday.
I think it's almost 80 degreesFahrenheit for those of you who
are in like other countries
Mike Rizzo (00:30):
You know the rest of the world that that uses a
system that makes more sense.
Michael Hartmann (00:35):
Right.
Well, I'm excited.
Today we are gonna be talkingwith Cowell most recently, CEO
of Digitopia Agency, which is aninbound digital marketing agency
with, uh, proprietarymethodology.
So, Frank founded what is nowDigitopia in 2004 and has
evolved.
The agency had evolved theagency from primarily website
development and internetmarketing.
(00:56):
By the way, internet marketingis a term I hadn't heard.
10 years to a digital marketingagency.
Uh, prior to founding his firstagency, Frank worked in sales
and marketing with Tandy, at andt and other technology
companies.
He is also a veteran of theUnited States Marine Corps and
regularly volunteers withtalents to the San Diego ama,
American Marketing Association,while also a mentoring young
(01:18):
people in the areas of strategy,sales and marketing.
So, Frank, thanks for joining ustoday.
Thanks for your service.
Frank Cowell (01:23):
absolutely.
Michael and Mike, it's good tobe here with you.
Michael Hartmann (01:27):
Well, great.
So, um, for our listeners, yeah,this was Frank's, Frank's
situation with Digitopia hasrecently changed, so maybe we'll
get a little bit of that alongthe way.
But, um, when Frank, when youand I first chatted and we're
kind of getting ready for this,which.
Uh, for the folks listeninghappens usually several weeks
before we record, uh, sometimesnow months.
(01:48):
But, uh, you talked to us aboutsomething you were calling the
growth engine concept or agrowth engine concept.
Something where marketing salesand how they're, you know, how
they're a growth engine.
So for our listeners, cuz Ithink this is gonna be important
for the rest of theconversation, can you describe
what you mean by that and how itapplies to our audience
primarily of marketing ops,revenue ops, kinds of
(02:10):
professionals.
Frank Cowell (02:13):
Yeah.
You know, when we talk about thegrowth engine in marketing and
sales world, you know what'sconjured up often is, you know,
what are we doing from a leadgen standpoint and.
Marketplace selectionstandpoint, messaging,
filtering.
How do we have a sales processwith BDRs that then handed over
to the team?
Like that whole continuity, thatseamless approach.
(02:35):
And that's very important,obviously.
Um, and then, you know, onceclients are landed, they're
handed over to operations tofulfill the offering.
And I kind of look at it theother direction in.
Um, in my worldview operationsis the heart of the growth
engine.
Uh, in other words, if we don'thave something that's world
(02:56):
class, on the operations side,something that, uh, meets the
hallmarks of a world classoffering such as repeatable,
scalable, delightful, valuable,proven, uh, profitable.
If we don't have thosehallmarks, um, it's going to be
extremely difficult to sell itand then it's gonna be even
harder to market it.
So operations, which as afunction of the business
(03:19):
different than operating, we cantalk about that too in a moment.
Operations being the fulfillmentfunction.
Of the business that is theheart of the growth engine.
And I've been really beatingthat drum lately, especially in
today's world.
It gets just more and moresaturated as the days go by and
there's no end in sight.
It's, we're just never goingback to the glory days of buying
(03:39):
ad time and hitting home runsbecause, uh, we can put out some
really great creative, quoteunquote, um, those days are
gone.
And it really comes back to thefundamentals of business.
Uh, three things.
What's the business strategy?
Do we have a true north?
Do we have a culture ofexcellent implementation?
And then third is operations.
(04:00):
Do we have a world classoffering?
That's really what it has tocome back to if we want to be
able to scale.
So for those of you that arehere in listening, if you're in
the rev op space, the marketingside, the sales side of what I
would start doing if I wereused, I'd start getting real
nosy and start getting real.
With product, with your teamsthat fulfill whatever it is that
(04:21):
you're selling.
I'd get real friendly with CFOs.
I'd get real friendly with, uh,COOs.
Find out what are we doing, uh,to become special in the
marketplace?
What are we doing to dominateour marketplace with just one
offering?
Just, just find one piece.
Where are we just killing it?
Where are we world class andlet's see how we can start with.
Michael Hartmann (04:44):
So I'm glad you, you clarified.
So when you said operations, Ithink at the end you were, I was
gonna ask you do you mean cuz westarted this primarily for
marketing operations folks, butit's kind of grown and we've
attracted other, other peopleincluding revenue operations.
depending on what you call it,like, depending on how you
define that, um, as well asother marketers and stuff.
But you mentioned the wordoffering in there, and I think
(05:07):
my head went right to theofferings that we Yeah.
Uhoh.
Did we lose me?
(05:27):
Fuck.
Mike Rizzo (05:28):
Go ahead and do, uh, my head went right to, and I'll,
I'll, I'll pull it all togetherfor us
Michael Hartmann (05:35):
Okay.
Geez,
Mike Rizzo (05:37):
Don't worry, it's fine.
Frank Cowell (05:39):
Mike and I were looking at each other, like
doing that really great, like,we're gonna hold this,
Mike Rizzo (05:43):
Yeah, we're just,
Frank Cowell (05:44):
know, if there's a
Mike Rizzo (05:44):
sit here and wait and maybe we'll hear him.
Uh, it'll be
Michael Hartmann (05:48):
I had gone on for like two minutes there and.
Mike Rizzo (05:51):
Yeah.
Frank Cowell (05:51):
just trying to see if we had a good recovery spot,
Michael Hartmann (05:53):
All right, so let's start again now.
So where my head went to was,um, that you, you know, you had
offering could be like what the,what the, your company or
organization sells or offers tothe external customers, but were
you also meaning, or did, wasthat what you meant?
(06:13):
Or did you mean more about whatdo you as an operations team
offer to the rest of the um,business?
Frank Cowell (06:19):
No.
So when I say offering, I usethat as.
Generic way to refer to thethings that you sell.
So I, in true marketing sense,we should use the word product,
but then service peoplesometimes get hung up and say,
we don't sell products.
In the service business, yourlabor service is the product.
(06:39):
So offer Ring to me is justwhether it's a product or a
service or you have a bit ofboth.
Whatever your offerings are, thethings that you sell into the
marketplace.
And operations is the, thefunction of the business that
delivers the offerings.
That fulfills the offerings.
And so when we last talked, Ithink that's one of the things
I've.
Passionate about helping my, mypeers and people within the
(07:02):
industry understand, and withinbusiness understand that, you
know, we've, we've taken theword operations and we've kind
of like, you know, we're, we'resling it around quite a bit,
quite a bit.
We've got rev ops and DevOps andcloud ops and sales ops and
marketing ops.
We're just throwing this wordaround like crazy.
And I think that's fine becauseit speaks to the idea that
within our functions we need tooperationalize what we.
(07:25):
Fantastic.
But the, the function ofoperations is not an
overarching, that's over on topof admin, finance, sales,
marketing, whatever.
It is the function of thebusiness that fulfills the
offering.
So in a service based business,that's where your production
delivery team lives.
The people that actually deliverthe labor to the, the, to the
clients.
If that makes.
Mike Rizzo (07:47):
Yeah, that totally makes sense, and that that
definition comes up often whenyou're.
You know, I've got really, um,great sort of professional
network friend, like built outin the agency space.
Um, some colleagues that I'vemet through the years and, you
know, the definition ofmarketing operations for them is
like fundamentally like verydifferent, uh, than what we talk
(08:11):
about in like sort of the B2Bembedded sort of provider.
Within a team, like a SaaScompany for that matter.
Um, and digital assetmanagement, right?
Like that comes in often intothe category of marketing
operations.
When you're looking at the sortof like, I think that bridges
into the world of servicesdelivery and all of that stuff.
(08:33):
Um, And, and so yeah, I thinkwe're, we sling these, you
didn't even mention clientsuccess operations, Frank, like
there's another one for us.
Frank Cowell (08:43):
ops.
I forgot about success ops.
Mike Rizzo (08:46):
So I think all of that makes sense.
I really like that.
At the end of the day though,it's, it's delivering on the
outcome, right?
Whether you're delivering on theoutcome for the client, um, or
if your, if your team, yourorganization is your, We often,
I think, in this community, talkabout it in that way all the
(09:07):
time, right?
Like the, the internal teams areyour clients, and so how do you
operationalize delivery ofbusiness expectations, service
level agreements, those kinds ofthings.
Because at the end of the day,you are a service provider to
your organization, to yourteams.
Frank Cowell (09:25):
1000% and I, I'm a big, I'm a big
Mike Rizzo (09:29):
Hartman's pushing back
Frank Cowell (09:32):
Michael.
What?
Mike Rizzo (09:32):
he's like, I do not provide services to my team.
Michael Hartmann (09:36):
I was, so here's, here's my hot take on
this is that I, I hate, I hatesmaybe too strong a word, but
it's like fingernails on achalkboard.
To me, when people say myinternal customer, cuz I think
it's a bunch.
BS because I think customers arecustomers, right?
So what you're providing as anorganization, um, and this is
(09:56):
where I thought Frank was going,is that we're operationalizing
how to fulfill oroperationalizing how to fulfill
the offering to our endcustomers, the ones who are
actually paying us for our thatand enabling us to have the jobs
that we have.
I, I understand this, the intentof saying internal customers and
trying to be a partner and allthat, but I think the danger in
(10:17):
that is that you forget.
Who are you truly trying toserve as an organization, which
in my view should be yourexternal customers.
Now, if you have a, a.
An organization who's, that'sbuilt around enabling people to
have that mindset, like from aculture standpoint, that you're
(10:39):
gonna treat our people well sothat they will then inter treat
our customers well.
Like I think that makes sense.
But the idea that you, I justalways struggle with like, cuz
it would be really easy to makethings really easy and efficient
for our internal teams, but makeit really hard for our customer.
To work
Frank Cowell (10:55):
So Michael,
Michael Hartmann (10:56):
that's the danger.
Frank Cowell (10:58):
Where I would side with Mike on this, and my
pushback, Michael, would bethis.
Um, there are many roles thathave direct touching with the
customer and then, and they.
Probably KPIs that can bedirectly related to that.
But then there are many peoplein the org, um, that have to
serve someone else in the org toenable them to do their job.
(11:18):
And so I tend to put everyone'srole with a top level mission
statement and as much aspossible, I like that mission
statement of every role todescribe to me how you serve
someone else in theorganization, how you serve
another role or function theorganization, because without
that connectivity, Then we canjust say like someone in admin,
(11:39):
oh, I'm here to serve ourcustomer.
But they never touch customers.
Their job never even comes closeto customers.
But they do enable someone inthe org to do their job better,
to do their job well, which is,is, um, You know, a chain
reaction.
So I, I tend to lean towardsevery single person in the org
has to have a mission statement,a one sentence description of
why their role exists.
(12:00):
And ideally in that missionstatement, there's a reference
to who or what they serve in theorganization.
It's serviced unto something orsomeone else besides, you know,
themselves.
Michael Hartmann (12:12):
Yeah, I, I think maybe we're not as far off
as, I mean, I, like I said,that's like my hot take, but I
think my point is, I, I, I thinkit's more of a mental.
Model for me, like I want, Idon't want people to forget that
they're, if they're serving in arole that doesn't directly
connect, work with externalcustomers, that they're, they're
enabling somebody else who maybe enabling somebody else who's
(12:32):
gonna be providing the best, youknow, interaction with end
customers.
And I think, I don't want peopleto forget that connection
because we
Mike Rizzo (12:41):
think it's a really good call out.
I think it's a really good callout.
I, I, I don't think, I actuallythink we're all saying very much
the same thing, but you're.
Calling attention to animportant nuance, which over the
last decade and decade plus, youknow, could have been lost in
translation for sure.
Um, in a world where a cultureor an organization, uh, or let's
(13:04):
just say in an organizationwhere they weren't necessarily
thinking about customer journeyor customer experience, um, and
the outcome wasn't in favor ofhow do we delight a customer?
There was definitely a timewhere sales or marketing or
anyone else in any functioncould have said, I need the
(13:25):
ability to send more emails and,and that could have resulted in
some terrible outcome.
Like, oh, great.
You get to just spam people.
Uh, not, I need the ability tosend more emails to a very
specific audience because I havea KPI that I needed to influence
because we know that thisparticular ICP that we're going
(13:46):
after is the right buyer for us,and so I need to be enabled.
Right.
And that's a totally differentball game.
Frank Cowell (13:54):
Yeah.
And I also think that it's thejob of the CEO to, um, reinforce
often the organization's trueNorth, and that true North has
some sort of impact on somebody,whether it's customers or a
marketplace or a community, um,in the, in the mission that goes
along with that.
So, I, it, it really, I thinkCEOs can do a, a world of good
(14:17):
by reminding everyone in the.
Why they're doing what they'redoing and how it ultimately
impacts the mission that they'redriving towards.
Good CEOs will remind the orgoften of that and reinforce it.
Michael Hartmann (14:30):
Yeah, sorry, I, I took us down a rabbit hole
that I didn't intend to, but I,you know, it's, it's just one of
those ones that Mike, Mike knowsthis from doing this for almost
two years.
Like, there's a couple ofbuttons that if you push on me,
there's gonna be like, I'm gonnacome back at it with a reaction.
Found it or not, so
Mike Rizzo (14:48):
one needs to know.
Accounting
Michael Hartmann (14:50):
Right, exactly.
They don't, they need tounderstand finance, which is a
different.
Mike Rizzo (14:55):
Damn it.
I went the wrong way.
Either way.
You'd think after two years Iwould've got that right.
Oh,
Michael Hartmann (15:00):
You would, I would, I would expect that Mike,
we're gonna have to have aconversation later.
Mike Rizzo (15:04):
I know.
Sorry.
Michael Hartmann (15:07):
no.
So, but I, you know, I, and partof this goes back, I will just
wrap that up, right?
Part of this goes back to a bookthat I got actually at a big
worldwide marketing thing at abig company I worked for, and
the author wrote this book, it'skind of a, who've moved my
cheese style thing, right?
Really short pi.
Pa, uh, chapters in a short bookanyway, but there was one, it
was just two facing pages thatbasically the, the gist of that
(15:31):
chapter in quote right airquotes was, you know, everyone's
paycheck should have, this iscustomer money that, like, I
used to have a photocopy of thatat my desk everywhere I worked
for.
10, 15 years.
Just because it was a good Remito your point.
Right.
It was a reminder.
So it could have been the CEO orleader of a company doing it.
Yeah.
(15:51):
But it was for, that was my, myinternalized the way I
internalized it.
So, um, maybe we can put a
Frank Cowell (15:58):
and I, I would, I would, uh, Twist that a little
bit more too.
This is our reward for bringingvalue to our customer,
Michael Hartmann (16:05):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Frank Cowell (16:07):
We, this is a result of bringing value to
somebody and, um, the more youmake, the more value you've
delivered.
Michael Hartmann (16:16):
Yeah, totally love it.
Um, okay, so we'll get back ontrack here a little bit.
Um, so you know, another thingyou, you, you sort of, a term
you used with me when we werekind of prepping for this was
something you called, if I getthis right, momentum Priority
Management, which.
(16:37):
Is method.
You are, you know, you, you wereeither building or thinking
about or used.
That is a little bit of a, aflywheel model of some source in
terms of, I guess,prioritization.
So fill in the gaps there of howmuch I screwed that up.
But yeah, what is, what do youmean by that and how could it
apply to our listeners?
Frank Cowell (16:57):
So what I mean by momentum priority management is
when I think.
Stepping back and looking at thebusiness and trying to
understand where does theorganization need to unblock
something to create the mostmomentum for growth At the
highest level, we wanna look atthe functions of the business,
and there are six core functionsunderneath the top two execs of
(17:20):
CEO and coo.
Those six functions aremarketing, sales, operations,
admin, finance, and r and d,right?
Those are the generic sixstandard major functions of a.
For the most part, generallyspeaking, everything flows under
one of those six functions,right?
So when we think about thosefunctions, um, we want to think
about the order in which wefocus on them.
(17:41):
So what I, I typically tend todo is line those up after the
CEO's responsible for True Northand making sure that there's a
team to support Tru North.
The COO is responsible formaking sure there's a culture of
elite implementation.
And then we get into the, thefunctions and the very, very
first one, this goes back towhat we talked about earlier, is
(18:01):
operations, is the, is theoffering world class.
And that's what the operationsteam is there to make sure it's
the product, the service thatwe're selling.
Is it world class?
Is it, uh, and again, my worldclass checklist is repeatable,
scalable, profitable, provable,uh, valuable to clients, right?
Um, easy to buy, easy to easy.
(18:25):
So do we have a world classoffering?
If we don't, yes, we might havelead gen problems.
Yes, we might have salesconversion rate problems, and
it's up to those teams to focuson those.
But the number one focus of theentire org should be that world
class offering.
If you don't already have it,that comes before marketing
sales or anything else afterthat.
The next one that's in dominoorder or momentum priority
(18:45):
order, uh, is the sales process.
Why?
Because now that we have a worldclass offering, we actually have
to validate.
That people have this need andthat people want to buy it, that
people will buy it and are asevidenced by really high close
rates.
We can get people into meetingsand we can close them at a high
rate, and we've got a process torepeat that.
(19:06):
Once we've nailed that, then wego to marketing.
Marketing then becomes the, thebottleneck.
It becomes the next momentum.
Area that we wanna focus on oncewe've solved those other things.
And the reason it comes afterthose things is because it, when
you have a world class offering,it makes selling easier.
And then when you have thatdialed in, now we use marketing
for scale.
(19:26):
And that's what a lot of smallerbusinesses don't understand.
You don't do marketing as yourstandard growth engine.
You do it for scale.
Once the offering is proven, andonce your sales pro process is
proven, I see way too many orgsthinking they have a lead gen.
When in reality they have anoffering problem or they have a
sales system problem marketingis for scaling, right?
(19:48):
It's not for proving outoffering.
It's not for proving out, uh,the, the val, the value of the
offering and being able to closeconsistently.
After that, then we go to admin,then we go to finance.
So putting them in that ordernets you the most momentum
possible.
There's a really great video.
You could find on YouTube where,um, a gentleman knocks over
(20:09):
these dominoes and he startswith a domino that's probably
around, you know, two incheshigh.
It's a just a normal,
Michael Hartmann (20:17):
I've,
Frank Cowell (20:18):
and at the end there's this massive 200 pound
slab that he's able to knockover.
And the reason he is able to dothat is because he lined up the
dominoes in the right.
If the second domino was the 200pound slab right after the two
inch domino, it would'vestopped.
He wouldn't have been able toknock it over.
(20:39):
And so that's what MomentumPriority Management is about.
It's about making sure that asan organization, we know our
true North, and we have a teambuilt that matches our true
North with core values andexcited about the vision of the
mission.
We have a culture of gettingstuff done.
Elite implementation, no matterwhat our problem is in the org,
no matter what we're tackling.
(20:59):
We get stuff done.
We're consistent.
We hit our targets, we keep ourpromises, we're accountable.
We make decisions towards thetrue north.
Then from there we go intooffering and so on.
So that that order is socritical because if you focus on
one later as an obsession of theorg, but you haven't solved a
previous, you're going to bespinning your wheels.
You're going to not be nearly asefficient and gain the momentum
(21:21):
that you possibly.
Michael Hartmann (21:24):
It's interesting.
A couple of thoughts and maybe afollow up, but what my, my big
takeaway from this was I, I whenyou were describing marketing as
the thing for scale, you know,after kind of get, getting the
sales process figured out, I, Iknow I've seen multiple times
over the course of the last fewyears in different communities,
people in marketing saying like,marketing, marketing ops.
Right.
Can't solve for.
(21:45):
Product market fit, right?
So,
Frank Cowell (21:48):
Thousand.
Michael Hartmann (21:49):
um, it can maybe temporarily fill a little
bit of a gap, but it's nevergonna be a long term thing.
Um, this may be getting into,you know, the part that you made
a, you kind of hinted at adistinction between operations
and operating function, and somaybe this is part of it, but
the, uh, I'll ask the questionthis way you, the way you
(22:10):
described, like getting thatworld class, um, offering out
there is an operations thing.
Is there an implication therefrom an organization standpoint
that you need something likemarketing operations or revenue
operations to be elite and inplace to support that at that,
(22:32):
that in the first domino stage?
Or does that tend to come laterwhen you're dealing with sales
and marketing?
Uh, ramping up in the futurestages.
Frank Cowell (22:43):
I, I tend to think.
I don't wanna offend anybodywho's listening.
I tend to think that manyorganizations, if they focused
on the fundamentals of what Italked about, right?
Do we have a true north and arewe abiding by it?
Are we world classimplementation is our offering
world class?
I tend to think if you keepgoing back to those questions
(23:04):
and just solving for thosequestions in each function, it
would be much, much later inyour.
Journey that you would need amarketing operations team, a
revenue operations team, and soon.
That being said, when you get tothe point where you truly need
it, then it's about, it's abouttaking what's already working
(23:26):
and now sending it to anotherlevel.
I am not a fan of.
We need revenue operations tofix something that's just
fundamentally broken.
Does that make sense?
I think once you have thingsthat are fundamentally working
well, and now we're trying toleverage things at scale, then
things like revenue operationsmake sense.
(23:46):
It's a lot like, you know, if wehad a, a big, uh, lever and, uh,
the boulder we were trying tolift was just a little five
pound thing.
It's just kind of a waste,right?
We don't.
A big lever, we could just pickit up with our hands.
But if on the other end was a500 pound boulder, that same
lever with our same exact force,no extra energy, no extra
(24:08):
effort, we can lift it.
And so we've got leverage.
And same thing withorganizations.
Once you reach a certain mass,once you reach a certain, um,
Level of momentum and think thefundamentals are working.
Now we can use things likerevenue operations to do things
at scale and leverage data,leverage throughput, leverage a
(24:29):
size of a customer base thatotherwise it just doesn't have
the same impact when you're muchsmaller.
Um, marketing operations, samething.
You know?
Now when we are ready to dosomething at scale, then yes,
the idea that we have thingsoperationalized is way more
important because now we haveleverage something, something to
leverage.
Michael Hartmann (24:49):
Yeah.
I'm curious, Mike, you know,you've got a lot more like early
stage company experience than Ido.
Does that resonate with you,that kind of domino model in the
order or is it, have you seen,I'm just curious.
I, I have, I don't have enoughexperience in that early stage
company world to.
To have a strong opinion,shocker.
Mike Rizzo (25:10):
Yeah, I, it definitely resonates.
I think, um, there's a balancenow.
There's something happeningtoday that wasn't happening 10
years ago.
Uh, and that is the executiveswho have been around long enough
(25:33):
or who have at least conferredwith other leaders in their
space on.
What should I be payingattention to?
You know, and Frank, you'recalling attention to a bunch of
different things that are reallyimportant.
Um, they're gonna ask questionsthat are actually hard to answer
if you don't have an operationallike rigor in place that allows
(25:56):
you to answer those questions.
So, by way of example, um, youknow, we are trying to
operationalize our business fora go to market product.
And, uh, we figured out our icp.
We've made some bets and itseems like it's working, but the
only evidence I have right nowis that we've closed a few
deals.
I don't know what channels thosedeals necessarily came from.
(26:18):
And if I ask the question, wheredid the leads come from?
If nobody built the rigor to beable to track that right from
the very beginning, thatquestion's not gonna be answer.
And so there is a naturalinflection point at some stage
of any early company thateventually says, right, somebody
(26:38):
please lay a foundation that issuper, super basic that we can
at least do some real simplereporting off of that.
I can understand and trust,
Frank Cowell (26:48):
That I, I would thousand percent agree.
Mike Rizzo (26:51):
yeah, that takes expertise though, right?
Like that takes an operationsperson.
Now maybe you don't have to hirean operations.
You don't have to hire amarketing ops expert full-time,
but you should probably contractsomebody who knows what they're
doing.
Frank Cowell (27:05):
Yeah, absolutely.
Getting those foundations inplace.
Are definitely critical.
I think I was more so referringto, I see a lot of orgs trying
to grow these various ops teamsthat otherwise would be
unnecessary if they had justobsessed about some
fundamentals.
Core, core underlying technologyto make sure that we have, uh,
(27:28):
seamless data between the flowof marketing, sales, operations,
and so on.
Absolutely a thousand percent.
I think another thing thatbecomes a trigger point is,
Ultimately, like I think aboutRev and I think about why a Rev
team would even exist.
And in my opinion, the onlyreason a Rev team would exist is
to extract more, uh, revenue andor profit to the bottom line
(27:51):
that otherwise is not currentlyhappening.
And so if there is opportunityon the table to do.
And a then a rev team makessense.
Why?
Well, normally the COO isresponsible for finding the, and
analyzing the profitability.
What is happening within myfunctions
Mike Rizzo (28:09):
Mm-hmm.
Frank Cowell (28:10):
can inflect revenue and drop more profit
online.
At some point, that becomes toobig of a job for the COO due to
all the data throughput and thetechnology.
At some point that becomesoutside their technical scope,
not their strategic.
Mike Rizzo (28:25):
Mm-hmm.
Frank Cowell (28:26):
And so in my opinion, that becomes a
triggering point where, hey,team members, uh, to assist in
enabling that to happen.
That otherwise what's easier forthat person to tackle when they
were smaller is now needed,which is why I then, uh, often
say in my worldview, the Revteam is really a right hand to
the c o because they're enablingthat person to do, to do the
(28:50):
mission of their job thatotherwise was already there.
Does that make.
Mike Rizzo (28:53):
Yeah.
Yeah, that totally makes sense.
And I, I think just, just goingback to some of the points you
were making earlier.
Actually, you know, I think itbacks a lot of the thinking
that, you know, you can't go toa, or you shouldn't, in my
opinion, go to a marketing opsperson.
(29:16):
You know, to echo what you'resaying before, to try to figure
out your go to market.
Like, like, like they're notyour growth strategist.
They're not your, your, yourgrowth hacky, like come up with
all kinds of new ways to try tobring a product to the market
person.
They can create the pipelinesand all those other things.
(29:36):
And, and look, some marketingops professionals, they move
into that role and that's good,but they are distinctly
different function.
And so I, what I was hearingearlier about like, you know,
trying to find product marketfit and all this other stuff,
like, I actually really likethat because at the end of the
day, if you're hiring somebodyfor an ops role, it shouldn't be
(29:58):
because they're your growthhacker Like that isn't, that
isn't their actual job.
So please stop trying to lumplike, Growth hacking in with
this idea that that's like whata marketing automation person
marketing operations persondoes.
Like, they're different roles,they're different functions.
They serve different purposes.
And so I, I actually liked thatyou were pulling those things
(30:18):
apart, but yeah, I, uh, all ofwhat you said made sense.
I just wanted to,
Frank Cowell (30:23):
The, the, the slash ops as we add ops onto all
these different, uh, things likemarketing, sales dev and all
that.
Again, to me, I think it's thereto operationalize what's
happening in their world andalso to be connectivity to other
functions within the business.
But typically, um, that meansthat person is following someone
(30:46):
else's strategy, right?
There's the strategy of theexecutive team of here's the
approach to our growth andhere's where we're pointed for
our growth, and here are the bigdecisions that we think will
lead to our.
Now the folks below that have tofigure out how to make it
happen.
By the time we get to marketingops, the how they're figuring
(31:08):
out how to make happen arethings like repeatability and
interconnectedness andconsistency and data exposure.
Michael Hartmann (31:18):
That
Frank Cowell (31:18):
really far.
That's really far away from thebusiness strategy.
Not saying those people can'televate and be capable one day,
but at that point, you know, wewant to be really clear.
I often.
Um, cuz we, a lot of peoplethrow the word strategy around
strategy versus tactic, strategyversus tactic.
Some people will say, oh, wehave an SEO strategy.
And um, and that may be true,but what I like to remind people
(31:43):
of is every person that that hasa tactic to their strategy, that
tactic is someone else'sstrategy.
And that strategy is someoneelse's tactic.
Does that make sense?
Mike Rizzo (31:54):
Mm-hmm.
Michael Hartmann (31:55):
Hmm.
Yeah.
Frank Cowell (31:56):
Your tactic becomes the next level down
strategy.
So everyone's got thisstraddling of strategy and
tactics, and so we just need toall be very aware of our role
and what we're there to do.
And so we have to be clear like,what is the strategy I'm
following, which is someoneelse's tactic?
Then what is my strategy toimplement that tactic?
Michael Hartmann (32:21):
Right.
What, so would you also agreethat as you as an organization
evolves and, and matures, right?
As you add op, these operationoperational functions for the
different functional areas, thatthere should be a feedback
mechanism that should theninform back to the strategy from
(32:43):
the other team that might havebeen supporting?
Okay.
A fair assessment.
Frank Cowell (32:49):
Yeah, I think any, anywhere and everywhere we can
have feedback loops and worktogether as unified teams, which
is why I love the idea of oncean organization's ready for it
and it's justified.
I love the idea of Rev cuz we'rereally, uh, unifying that
marketing sales operations loop,right.
What marketing, sales success.
Um, so we're really unifyingthat, that thread, uh, and
(33:12):
making sure that the throughputis just consistent, seamless,
not only in terms of customerexperience, but then the, the
data and then how do we makesense of it so we can leverage
it for better performance.
Um, so anywhere we can infusethat kind of thinking throughout
the org.
I am, I am absolutely all for,um, what was the heart of your
(33:33):
question again?
I was, wanted to make sure
Michael Hartmann (33:34):
No, no, I, so, no, I think you did.
Like, here's why I was askingthe questions.
I think.
I think folks, Listening who aremarketing operations roles is,
this could come across as alittle bit of a disheartening
message, right.
Which that.
But I think, and you hit on whatI thought would be the point,
which is fairly consistent withwhat we've heard from other
(33:55):
guests, is that I think the waythat I'll keep the marketing op,
but it could be revenue ops, uh,one of the ways in which we.
Show additional value back tothe organization is by
leveraging our access andunderstanding of the data that
we are really a part ofenabling, and that that's where
(34:15):
insights can come from.
And it's not just reporting backnumbers, it's re like looking at
the numbers, understanding whatit, what it's telling us, right.
The storytelling piece of it.
And I, I think that's where Iwas going was like, I think it
could be the message you could,people could be hearing is that
it's just a.
D there, there's not a strategicelement to what they do or
(34:37):
could.
Not a possibility.
And I don't, I didn't thinkthat's what you meant, so that's
why I
Frank Cowell (34:40):
No, no, not at all.
So, so I think what, what I, letme be clear from my role to any
other role in the org, we needto be very self-reflective and
understand where we are thestrategic person and where we're
the tactical person.
And we all have both.
Michael Hartmann (34:57):
Yeah.
Frank Cowell (34:57):
And so it's being mindful of, um, kind of goes
back to what Mike said earlier,which is how are we serving?
Someone else or something elsein the org.
So this, uh, this mindset ofservice to each other in the
org.
And so I think regardless ofwhatever level you're at, being
mindful of that and then alsounderstanding like why, why the
(35:19):
org exists and what its visionand mission are, and how can
you.
Obsess about how your work canimpact that, but then your
function, so if we're talkingabout marketing, right?
Like the whole job ofmarketing's function is to drive
awareness and leads contacts inthe database, right?
Like qualified leg gen awarenessand qualified leg gen.
So you have a bit of a long termplay and a bit of a short term
play.
So if you're in marketing opsand you, you know, like it's
(35:41):
awareness and legion, right?
Like those are the holy grails,the long term short term.
Then I would become, as amarketing ops person, I would
start to become very curious ona regular basis about the things
you're seeing in the data, inthe systems, in the
interactions, in the, the, your,the throughput that's coming
across your computer.
And I'd start to get verycurious and start to ask
(36:01):
questions and say, what is thistelling me about our opportunity
to drive awareness?
What is this telling me aboutour opportunity to drive
qualified leg gen?
And once.
Once you find something thatmakes you really curious, that
you think is worthinvestigating, then go and
investigate it.
Go and investigate it and startcoming up with a hypothesis that
says, you know, I saw this andit made me curious about our
(36:26):
opportunity to drive morelong-term awareness.
So therefore, I did thisresearch and I found this, and
my hunch is if we do X, Y, andZ, we might see this as a
result.
If you can formulate thatsentence, As a result of going
through the exercises and themotions, you, you're going, no
matter what role you're in,you're gonna be wildly valuable.
(36:48):
So I think people that are in,you know, let's add on the ops,
cloud ops, marketing, ops, dev,op, whatever, right?
When you're in those types ofroles and you're really there to
like operationalize and enablethese, the data on the systems
and the cross functionality,stay curious.
That is how you're going todrive impact, and that's how
you're going to, you know, raiseyour own stock within the
(37:09):
organization.
Michael Hartmann (37:10):
Yeah, I, I think the curiosity is gonna be,
I think that theme right thereis gonna be a critical one, and
I think.
If you talk to enough marketingops folks, one of the, one of
the consistent themes you'llhear about what makes good
marketing ops people iscuriosity, right?
They wanna understand how thingswork.
So what I would add, the nuancething is like follow that
(37:31):
curiosity when you see somethingthat, you know, stands out and
figure it out and try and thendo that exercise that you just
described.
I wanna go back to you, you,the, the operations versus
operating distinction that youmade, cuz truth be told, like
from our conversation, Few weeksago, I still, it feel like I'm
(37:52):
not clear about what you'remaking, how you're making that
distinction.
And I dunno if it has to do withjob titles or something else,
like, but what, how do youdistinguish operations from
operating and what's the kind ofthe, the, um, I don't know the
context in which you might useone or the other terms from your
(38:12):
perspective.
Frank Cowell (38:14):
So operating is typically where there's some
confusion sometimes with folksis like the COO for example.
So oftentimes people thinkthat's the operations head.
But that's the operating head.
So COOs, chief operatingOfficer, not chief operations
Officer.
Little slight difference in thewords, but huge difference.
(38:35):
So the coo, the operatingofficer, they're the ones who
head up the functions, they,they the head functions of
marketing, sales, operations,admin, finance, and r and d
report to that in.
Does that make sense?
So the COO doesn't just manageoperations, they manage
marketing, sales, operations,admin, finance, r and d.
(38:56):
So those heads report to thatindividual operations is one of
those functional heads that sitspeer to marketing, sales, admin,
finance, and r and d.
Underneath operations would beall of everybody having to do
with the delivery of the offer.
So again, if you're in aservices based business, that's
your, that's your, uh, you haveyour head of operations and you
(39:17):
have your client success managerand you have your account, uh,
strategists and accountdirectors, and you have your,
you know, service executionpeople.
Um, if you're a physicalproduct, it's people that are
doing assembly and, and so onand so forth, right?
So it's everything to do withfulfillment of what was.
Michael Hartmann (39:37):
So if I place us back, so the operating piece
really has to do with more ofthe whoever is, whether there's
coo, but somebody who's theleader within a company that
has, uh, responsibility forthose functions, including the
operations functions that mayhave.
And over time probably haveleaders of each of those sort of
(39:59):
functional operational teams.
Is that right?
Frank Cowell (40:01):
Correct.
And that the operations aregonna have is going to have its
own head.
Right.
So we might call that a vicePresident of operations, but a
lot of, um, distinction thatshould come out of that is the
vice president of operationsisn't over marketing, sales,
admin, finance.
They're peer to those folks.
Over those folks is the coo orwhat you could call president or
(40:24):
general manager.
One of those three titles oftengets used for that individual.
Then above that individual isobviously the ceo.
Um, and so I just think it's areal important distinction so
that when we talk aboutoperations in our world of rev,
op, DevOps, cloud ops, marketingops, we should be clear like
operations as the major businessfunction is the offering.
(40:45):
Operations as a concept oroperationalizing things isn't
necessarily a core, uh, distinctfunction of the.
Michael Hartmann (40:55):
Okay.
I'm curious, uh, this is tototal, well, it's, it's a
related thing.
So I've seen some conversationsonline and stuff with, um,
marketing leaders in particularlike CMOs who typically their
title is chief MarketingOfficer.
And, uh, there's been some, uh,articulated that they think they
(41:16):
should be.
Market officer, cuz I thinktheir role is a little different
than just just marketing.
That they have responsibilityfor understanding customers and
what the market, you know, whatthe market space is available,
what the, you know, totalmarket, total available market
is and things like that that gobeyond.
I think what people outside ofmarketing probably in particular
(41:38):
think of what marketing does.
Right.
So is, is it a similardistinction where you're trying
to like separate.
I mean, I think it sounds likeit's a, it's really, um, what
you're trying to articulate isthat whoever's that head of
responsibility for the thingslike admin, a, admin,
(41:58):
accounting, finance, whatever,and then the operations
functions is a operating leader
Frank Cowell (42:05):
Yeah, the op, yeah, the operating leader, the
coo or the GM or the.
It.
One of the, pick a title theymanage five to six.
You know, this is genericallyspeaking, right?
Five to six leaders, you know,the leader of marketing, the
leader of sales, leader ofoperations, the leader of admin,
the leader of finance, theleader of r and d, right?
Like, that's a generic corporateorg structure.
(42:27):
And so the COO there is, thereis a head of operations that
the, that reports to the coo.
Michael Hartmann (42:33):
Yeah.
So I'm curious to, do you, doyou, sorry.
Oh, I thought, thought Mike wasabout to jump in.
So I'm curious if you, in, inthis model that you're
articulating, is there, is therean implication there that, uh,
and I think I heard this alittle bit, is it.
Some of these operationsfunctions that say marketing
(42:54):
operations currently usuallyreports to head of marketing.
Um, say sales operations usuallyhas reports to a head of sales.
Are you making it a suggestionthat those roles should not
report back into thosefunctional lines, but actually
to the operating leader withinan organization?
Frank Cowell (43:11):
No, no.
Marketing ops is in themarketing function.
Sales ops is in the salesfunction, and so.
Michael Hartmann (43:20):
Okay, now I'm, okay.
I'm gonna go back like, how,then, how do these other, what
operations functions wouldreport to the head of operating
this operating leader?
Frank Cowell (43:30):
So it's, it's the head of marketing,
Michael Hartmann (43:32):
Okay.
Oh, okay.
So the, okay.
Frank Cowell (43:34):
head of operations, head of admin, head
of finance.
I'll report to the coo.
Michael Hartmann (43:38):
Got it.
Okay, now I, so then there'ssecond level.
See, I should have beenlistening closer.
Frank Cowell (43:45):
So then to go to your point, to go to your
question about like, uh, youknow, head of marketing versus a
head of Marette or Marks, Imean, I think that's really up
to that org where they're tryingto go and you know, who serves
who.
And gi give me a why.
What's the justification, whywould that role exist?
And, and, um, how does itinterconnect to marketing?
(44:05):
And um, ultimately how is itgonna help the organization?
Mike Rizzo (44:12):
Yeah, I.
Frank Cowell (44:12):
it's just a, if it's just a data and, and
feedback and insights that justaffect marketing decisions, well
then they probably should justreport to the head of marketing.
Mike Rizzo (44:22):
Mm.
Yeah.
I think we're seeing, we'reseeing a roll up of, um,
functions like marketing ops,sales ops, et cetera, roll into,
um, sort of a, a umbrella,categorical sort of operational
organization.
It's.
(44:43):
Basically becoming rev ops now.
Um, but I think there's stillalways, you know, there's a,
there's a need to, essentiallyin the world we're all sitting
in, uh, offices have that personsitting in that, that
environment, right?
With that team interacting onthose daily meetings.
Um, even though you might reportdirectly to someone in another
(45:06):
operational function,
Frank Cowell (45:08):
Yeah.
You know, like when we thinkabout, and I mentioned this a
moment ago, like in myworldview, who I think Rev
reports into, um, I think it'simportant that I like the
worldview that the rev.
Um, is a, a small butspecialized team that is a right
hand of the COO because itreally truly is about enabling
(45:29):
that COO to fulfill theirpersonal mission within the org,
which is, you know, increaserevenue, drop more profit to the
bottom line.
And so, um, and I think that's,in my worldview, I think that's
important that they have thatkind of connectedness to the COO
because they oftentimes willhave to influence what's
happening in marketing.
(45:50):
And operations as they try totie those three together.
And so that function, that roleneeds the authority that needs
the clout of being the COO'sright hand team.
Does that make sense?
Because I think what I've oftenseen in a lot of these
organizations, they get hung upon, well, when is this Rev?
And when is this just marketingstuff?
(46:12):
Or when is this Rev and when isthis just sales or client
services stuff?
And.
I, I've personally seen a lot ofRev people.
Then just all of a suddenthey're just doing regular old
marketing work.
And so there's a lot ofconfusion as to like, who's got
the, the authority to and whydoes the role even exist?
So, uh, I personally think,again, rev exists purely to, to
(46:37):
maximize revenue potential anddrop more to the bottom line.
That's it.
That's the only reason exists.
Mike Rizzo (46:44):
I think, I think that's like the, I, you know,
I'll hold my place and say Ireserve the right to to, uh,
adopt a different definition atsome point.
But right now, I, I think thatmight be one of the best
definitions I've thought of orheard.
(47:04):
Not I've thought of.
I didn't think of it.
You did uh, heard in, in thisspace.
Like really, really?
Frank Cowell (47:15):
I just think we have to get, we just have to get
really clear on each function ofthe business.
And again, I outlined the, thesix core corporate functions,
and then you have the two, whichare CEO and coo.
I think we have to get reallyclear on why each function
exists, so when we wanna add revops as either another function
or uh, a major subfunction, wehave to also answer that
(47:39):
question, why does it evenexist?
Mike Rizzo (47:42):
mm-hmm.
Frank Cowell (47:42):
and because without it, businesses like
business survived all theseyears without it.
So why are we adding it?
Right?
It's to maximize revenuepotential and drop more to the
bottom line that otherwise isnot happening.
Michael Hartmann (47:58):
I think it's
Mike Rizzo (47:58):
can see the, I can see the mission, the mission
statements coming in reallyhandy In your, in your, uh,
architecture of what we've justdescribed through this episode,
like,
Frank Cowell (48:07):
Oh, yeah.
In, in any, uh, org that I haveor any, uh, company I coach.
E, every role gets a missionstatement, a one sentence
mission, which is why does thefunction exist?
Why does the role exist?
Mike Rizzo (48:20):
Mm-hmm.
Michael Hartmann (48:20):
I like that it's, it's interesting the way
you described that, that rolemy, I was thinking that sounds
maybe somewhat similar to like achief of staff.
Type role, right?
It's cuz you want somebody whokinda has carries the authority
of the, the use, the c coo inthis case, but maybe doesn't
(48:43):
have that direct oversight ofthe individual operations
functions.
Um, so they're really there to,to ensure that there's a, a
consistent focus across those todo what you described, right?
Maximize revenue potential and,and drop more profit to the
bottom line.
I like that.
Interesting.
Frank Cowell (49:03):
Yeah.
In fact, that dotted line's agreat word, Michael.
In, in, in that worldview there,there would definitely be dotted
line of marketing, sales andoperations over to a rev leader.
Um, which basically says, um,Anytime we need to create
consistency in the declineexperience so we can maximize
(49:24):
retention and repeat buys.
Why?
Cuz we're, we're maximizingrevenue potential.
We're dropping more to thebottom line.
Anytime we need those systemstalking, anytime we need that
consistency there and thisperson has something to
operational lies across thosethree functions, then we're,
we're going to listen to thatperson.
We're, we're going to, gonna paya lot of attention.
(49:48):
Because they're going to bemeasured on how well those
strategic initiatives result inmore revenue and more profit.
And if it's not, if the revfunction can't prove that, and
it's actually not doing that inthe org, no reason for its
existence.
Michael Hartmann (50:05):
Yeah, it's interesting.
So, uh, I wish we had more time.
Frank, this has been like, I, Ifeel like I'm gonna walk out
here and I'm gonna think of likehalf a dozen more questions that
I'd love to ask you, but we'llhave to, we'll have to leave it
at that.
So thank you for your time.
If, if folks who are listeningwant to keep up with what you're
(50:26):
doing or connect with you,what's the best way for them to
do that?
Frank Cowell (50:31):
Yeah, come connect with me on LinkedIn, Frank Koel.
Just gimme.
A search, uh, my LinkedIn isslash frank r ko, l c w e l.
You can also, um, my newwebsite, uh, with my new
ventures launching here soon,which by the time this podcast
air should be ready.
It's called Revenue Ranch is mynew business, and that is
revenue ranch.com.
Michael Hartmann (50:51):
Revenue Ranch.
Uh, and I, now I realize Imispronounced your name, so
sorry about that.
I usually ask ahead of time.
Frank Cowell (50:58):
Don't, don't worry about it.
It's often, uh, I think ourfamily mispronounces it to begin
with.
Anyway, it's probably.
The way you say it, to behonest,
Michael Hartmann (51:08):
Oh, that's funny.
Well, that's all right.
I do, I do try like this.
One thing I've learned is justtry to get that right.
So shame on me.
That's what I get for, it's likewhen I do, I forget to look over
my shoulder when I'm changinglanes driving, right?
And then there's somebody there.
Um,
Frank Cowell (51:21):
yes.
I, I, I had that happen to merecently.
Michael Hartmann (51:24):
It'll be my reminder to ask the next time.
Well, Frank, really appreciateit.
Some great insights, some greatstuff to think about now, um,
and I'm sure our listeners willbe.
Really noodling on this for aswell if they're like me.
So thank you for that.
Mike, thank you for joining and,and jumping in.
And thanks to all our listenersfor supporting us.
If you've got questions orsuggestions, uh, or topics you
(51:47):
want us to talk about in futureepisodes or suggestions for
guests or you wanna do any ofthose things, feel free to hit
us up.
You can get ahold of Naomi,Mike, or me, uh, on LinkedIn or
on the Slack or whatever.
Until next time everyone.
Bye.
Mike Rizzo (52:03):
Bye
Frank Cowell (52:03):
Hi, Michael.
Mike.
Take care.
See you folks.
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