The Great Attribution Debate with Andrea Lechner-Becker and Drew Smith

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In this episode, we talk with Andrea Lechner-Becker and Drew Smith about attribution reporting. Andrea is currently the Head of Marketing at Toolio. Prior to Toolio, Andrea worked in consulting, and was CMO of Shift Paradigm. Drew is currently Founder and CEO of Attributa, a consulting firm that specializes in attribution and marketing analytics. Prior to Attributa, Drew worked in both consulting and in-house marketing roles, including time with LeadMD.

Tune in to hear:
-  What tools and platforms that excite Drew about the future of attribution reporting.
-  Both Andrea and Drew's perspectives on how they think attribution fits into the overall measurement of marketing and marketing’s effectiveness.
-  Whether they think attribution reporting will continue to be a hot topic for the foreseeable future.

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Episode Transcript

Michael Hartmann (00:02):
Hello everyone.
Welcome to another episode ofOpsCast, brought to you by
MarketingOps.com, powered by theMO Pros.
I'm your host, Michael Hartmann.
Joined today by Mr.
Rizzo.
Mike, say hello.
Hey

Mike Rizzo (00:13):
everybody.
It's been a while since we hadan episode push, but we've all
been super slammed and I'mexcited for this one because we
have some.
awesome people to join us for

Michael Hartmann (00:22):
return.
you're not gonna, you're notgonna plug MOps-Apalooza.
Um,

Mike Rizzo (00:27):
well, you know, MOps-Apalooza is coming
everybody, so we shoulddefinitely see you all there
November five through eight.
In Anaheim, California, rightbehind Disneyland.
Right.

Michael Hartmann (00:38):
You and Mickey.
Right.
There's, there's my plug Thereyou go.
All right.
Well, I am pumped to have, uh,we're I, I'm calling it a little
throwdown here about attributionreporting.
It's, you know, one of our mostcommon topics it feels like, but
it never.
Goes away.
So, but we've got two of ourprevious guests returning here.
Um, and so let's just getstarted.
So joining us for the discussionare Andrea Lechner Becker,

(01:00):
Andrew Smith.
Andrea is currently head ofmarketing at Tulio.
Prior to Tulio, she worked inconsulting with CMO of Shift
Paradigm, formerly Lead md.
And.
Uh, prior to that merger, thatmade Shift Paradigm.
And then Drew is currentlyfounder and CEO of Attri.
Atri.
You're gonna have to correct me.
I didn't, I should have askedhow to pronounce it before.
Drew a consulting firm thatspecialize in the attribution

(01:21):
and marketing analytics.
So prior to that, he worked inboth consulting and in-house
marketing roles, including alsoat Lead md.
So they've worked together.
So welcome to both of you.
Uh, I sure we warn our guests orour listeners that, uh, this may
include explicit language.

Drew Smith (01:37):
Aggressive,

Andrea Lechner-Becker (01:38):
explicit swearing from Andrea Lechner
Becker.
By the way, I do believe I hiredyou, right?
Drew?
Or?

Drew Smith (01:45):
Yes.
Yes.
You were hiring?
No, you, you hired me at Lead MDand, uh, I, I still tell
everybody that, uh, I talk toabout my time there, that, uh,
You were the absolute bestmanager and mentor I've ever had
in my entire life, so Oh my god.
There's, uh, there's, there's alot of love here.
Yeah.

Mike Rizzo (02:05):
Nice.
Well, at least we started offwith love cause I feel like it's
gonna get heated.

Drew Smith (02:09):
Hell yeah.
Definitely.
Absolutely.

Michael Hartmann (02:14):
Well, so let's, let's, uh, get everyone
oriented on how this episodecame about.
So it started, I, I couldn't getthe exact date Drew, but you,
you made a post, uh, on LinkedInsometime in February of 2023.
And I'm just gonna read it cuz Ican't, I don't wanna paraphrase.
That said the following, if you,if you're tired of hearing about

(02:34):
marketing attribution, I canassure you that the topic isn't
going away.
There are new players in thespace spinning up new tools and
platforms and existing playersin the space are creating some
new, cool, new innovations.
Attribution is here to stay andis going to become more and more
of a must have for data drivenorganizations.
And, uh, as is want to happenon, uh, social media.

(02:54):
Andrew and I for sure bothcommented initially with some
critiques of attributionreporting and, um, actually I
said, Hey, we'd love to get asimple update on the state of
the technology and what you'retalking about.
So how about we start with that,drew?
Like what, when you were broughtthat up, like what were some of
the platforms or, uh, sort ofshifts that you're seeing in the

(03:15):
space that, uh, you werereferring to?

Drew Smith (03:18):
Yeah, absolutely.
So, um, so I think there's acouple of.
Obviously I, well I'm at a AdobeSummit this week and there were
some announcements, uh, forMarketta measure, uh, some
innovations that they havecoming up, which one of them is
Marketta Measure Ultimate thatthey announced, which is, um,

(03:38):
basically going to allowMarketta measure to, uh, inter
integrate with tons of otherplatforms that it doesn't
already integrate with.
So massive up upgrade and shiftin in their technology also.
With, and this is, this was alsoannounced at Adobe Summit this,
this week.
Uh, but this is also some stuffthat, that hasn't necessarily

(04:00):
been announced yet by platforms.
But, um, I can tell you that,uh, I've talked to other
platforms and it's coming, whichis, uh, AI and machine learning.
Um, and so there's, there's someannouncements.
Announcements with Marketomeasured this week about AI and
machine learning and otherplatforms are, Going to be

(04:20):
getting on the AI and machinelearning train very, very soon.
Um, I, I, I know for a fact thatit's being worked on.
So those are some of the bigthings that are coming right
now, um, or that have alreadybeen announced.
Um, and then I also know that,that, um, About, uh, well, last
week I was in New York, uh, atthe, uh, C M O Alliance Summit

(04:42):
in New York City where there wasa brand new marketing
attribution platform that wasannounced called Mesh Analytics.
Um, and then I've, I've spokento a couple of others that are
also very, very early stagethat, that people probably
haven't heard about yet, butare, are coming soon.
So new players in the space and,and a lot of new innovation in

(05:02):
the space.
So, um, in, in.
The new players, the the onethat launched last week and the
couple of the others that I'vetalked to, they're, they're,
they're well funded.
I mean, they've got goodbacking.
Um, they're with acceleratorslike Y Combinator, um, so
they're there, there's a lot ofmoney being invested in
attribution generally right now.

(05:23):
And so I think it's, uh, likeit, like I said in the post,
it's not going away.
It's not going anywhere.
So maybe

Andrea Lechner-Becker (05:30):
it would help to like, probably like
size.
Attribution software is right,because like you have, like what
we're really talking about interms of like the job to be done
or the use case just to beblunt, is like proving or like
maybe how would you, maybe I'lljust put it to you, drew, like

(05:51):
how would you define, when wetalk about attribution as a
category or as maybe like a jobto be done, a use case, whatever
frame you wanna use, like how doyou define it with customer?

Drew Smith (06:04):
Yeah.
Um, there's a couple differentways I, I define it with
customers.
So one of them is simply tellinga story about how an opportunity
or a deal came to be.
What was, how, what journey,what was the journey for this
opportunity?
Um, you know, did it interactwith marketing?
Did it interact with sales?

(06:26):
Did BDRs play a role?
It's basically creating a, anovel, Andrea, the seal.
You like the novel analogy hereof.
How an opportunity came to bewith various engagement points
or touchpoints or whatever youwant to call it, as the various
chapters in that novel.
And, and that's, uh, that'sreally the most simple way to

(06:49):
describe what attribution is.
Um, now if you get a little bit,Deeper and more granular into
it, then it be, you know, itgets into like, well, well, what
was the value of each individualfinancial value of each
individual chapter along thatjourney?
Right?
So in a novel, some chaptersmove the storyline further than

(07:11):
than others, right?
So how would you assign afinancial value to each one of
those chapters in the.
That's what attribution is, inmy opinion.
Yeah, I

Andrea Lechner-Becker (07:21):
like that cuz I, I think that there's
like, you know, HubSpot is liketechnically it, it's not an
attribution tool, but it hasattribution components that help
you tell that story.
Google Analytics is not anattribution tool, but it helps
you tell that story in.
in the larger scheme of things.
And so I, it's a great level,right?

(07:42):
Right, exactly.
So I feel like, you know, to me,and I get hit up by all of these
attribution softwares, and to meit's like, I think one, like the
thing that frustrates me alittle bit about the space is
like, it is not a good idea foreveryone to invest in a, in an
attribution technology like, andI do think that the attribution

(08:04):
vendors do themselves no favorsby trying to sell this to
companies that have no business.
Trying to invest in this becausethe reality is, is that like
even visible back in the day.
So visible was acquired byMarketo and then Marketo was
acquired by Adobe.
And now is that the Adobemeasure?
Is that what they're callingvisible these

Drew Smith (08:23):
days?
Mark Marketo measure AdobeMarketo measure.
Yeah.

Andrea Lechner-Becker (08:27):
Adobe Marketo measure is the old
visible, all right.
The brand

Michael Hartmann (08:31):
managers listening are just going crazy
right now.
Yeah,

Andrea Lechner-Becker (08:34):
yeah, yeah.
sorry, people.
Um, but yeah, like, so when Ioriginally talked to Aaron Bird,
who was the original ceo, e O ofVisible, he said to me, unless
you're spending 10 grand amonth, On Google AdWords, we are
not going to be valuable to youbecause the, at the time, and
this was like a decade ago,their main objective was like

(08:55):
bringing Google AdWords intoyour system so that you could
see like specifically whatkeywords are you spending on
that are driving opportunities.
Highly valuable job to be done,right, that you, you couldn't do
in other ways.
Now, a lot like you can do that,right?
Like HubSpot, you can do that.
Pardot has an integration.
I, what I'm struggling with withthe attribution component, just

(09:17):
from a technology perspective islike, I think to your point,
drew, like unless you connectand get data that companies like
Google or Facebook are hidingaway from, from actual
marketers, like I don't reallyunderstand what value they bring
to the table.

Drew Smith (09:37):
Yeah.
Well first off, you're, you'reabsolutely correct, attribution
is not right for every companythat exists in the world.
Um, I mean, uh, my company thatI started is an attribution
first company.
Guess what?
I'm not doing.
I'm not doing attribution.
You know why?
Because I'm too small.

(09:58):
I'm not investing enough moneyin marketing.
I know.
I know where every single dealcomes from because it's not
complicated for me.
When it becomes complicated,that's where attribution becomes
valuable.
Now, let's also take a step backand, and acknowledge the fact
that like Apple does not give ashit about attribution.

(10:19):
Why they have enough money thatthey don't.
about attribution, right?
They're not worried aboutbudgets getting Yeah.
Pulled away from them and, andnot having enough money to, to,
to advertise.
Spending million,

Michael Hartmann (10:33):
spending million dollars on a, spending
million dollars on a Super Bowlad is a rounding error, right?
Yeah,

Drew Smith (10:37):
exactly.
Exactly.
So Attri and, and that'sobviously the, the extreme ends
of the scale, right?
So, but, but to Andrea's point,attribution is not right for
every company on the planet.
And that's coming from somebody.
entire business is founded onthe, on the principle that
attribution is a, is a netbenefit for most organizations.
Um, now to your point, a Andrea,like the, the, one of the big

(11:02):
values of attribution softwareis Yes.
So there are certain things thatattribution software makes
visible that, that.
most of the time without thesoftware is not visible to you.
Um, and yes, HubSpot hasattribution, but let me, let me
give you an example of whereHubSpot's attribution falls
down, where visible is actuallya, a better platform than a,

(11:26):
than HubSpot's attribution.
If you try to do HubSpot'sattribution and you try to
include trade shows or webinarsor any kind of off offline
events, um, HubSpot doesn't letyou.
They don't actually, in theirattribution platform that they
have, you cannot includebasically like a touchpoint from

(11:49):
a trade show into HubSpot'sattribution modeling.
They only do it for offline, orexcuse me, for online
engagements.
So AdWords.
Yeah, Facebook.
Yeah, LinkedIn.
Yeah.
The trade show you went to lastweek, no.
Doesn't get included in yourattribution model.

Mike Rizzo (12:06):
Depends on if you

Drew Smith (12:07):
paying that tool or not.
Uh, I mean if you buy the tool,like, I'm cha so the only

Mike Rizzo (12:13):
reason I'm challenging you on it is like at
Inbound last year they announcedthe customer journey analytics
for the Marketing HubEnterprise.
So again, you're talking aboutright sizing your efforts here.
Like that is for an enterprise,you know, subscription with
frankly like, you know, noteverybody has the enterprise
subscription model and most ofus aren't super aware of it

(12:33):
given that the tool is likerelatively new in market, but
there's.
uh, new journey analytics thatyou can build that are very,
very flexible, uh, around like,Hey, did they attend a marketing
event?
Uh, You know, or not well

Drew Smith (12:50):
and those kinds of things.
Well, now, now my question isthis though.
Cuz when I looked at HubSpot's,uh, attribution software, uh,
which the last time I looked atit was probably, uh, nine months
ago.
So this, this may have changed,but the last time I looked at
it, you could, you could includethat they attended a trade show

(13:10):
as like a list, but it was notactually being assigned dollar
value credit.
Along with all the other onlinestuff.
So is it that you can look at itas a list or that it gets
assigned dollar value credit?
No.
The

Mike Rizzo (13:25):
new journey at the Journey Analytics should, uh,
allow you to, to basically likecreate a map of the journey that
somebody's going on, and thenyou can delineate how you'd like
the waiting to work.
There's all kinds of flexibilityand it, it sort of just feels
like, um, in my, like again, Ihaven't personally used it, but
I've seen it like in action insome of the demos and things

(13:47):
like that.
But in my mind, I sort ofattribute it more attribute it
nice, uh, to a, um, oh gosh,like, um, Name, name, name, uh,
uh, attribution, like datasoftware out there.
Like

Drew Smith (14:02):
a, like visible CaliberMind?
No, not one of

Mike Rizzo (14:05):
those.
Like more like, sorry.
Just like general data, like,uh, ingest platform.

Drew Smith (14:09):
Like a cdp.
Like a Tableau.
Tableau.

Mike Rizzo (14:12):
Yeah.
I, uh, I equate it more to like,look, you're looking at your
data from like a Tableauperspective, and you're able to
sort of mishmash, but it's, it,it's intentionally built to help
you figure out the journey,right?
So it's like this, like you'vegot all your data here.
And so now go map out yourjourney almost from that.
Like you customize it, right?
You figure it out.
Yeah.
You, you create

Drew Smith (14:32):
your own version of that.
Yeah.

Andrea Lechner-Becker (14:34):
Okay.
So

Drew Smith (14:34):
like, sorry we went deep on a HubSpot.

Andrea Lechner-Becker (14:36):
No, no, no tangent there, but No, it's
fine.
And actually is like, I, I thinkit's valuable cuz like, let's be
honest, like who Ha like I thinkthe biggest struggle is like no
one has the right.
No one.
Like literally.
Yeah, no one.
Like I will give you an examplefrom my life.
So I was at Lead MD for 10years.

(14:57):
Okay.
The first Marketo summit that Iever went to was 2012.
We had business cards, lead md.
So everybody thought we werelike, we were playing on the
idea of like, we were likediagnose your leads medical
doctor kind of thing.
So we literally had on ourbusiness cards, doctor, like
Andrea Lechner, Becker, Dr.
Justin Gray, 2000 and.

(15:19):
Two years ago, that would'vebeen 2021.
I met A C M O at a C M Onetworking event and he said to
me, lead md, you guys used tohave like doctor on your
business cards, right?
We literally only used.
That business card in 2012 andafterwards we were like, we
this, like a medical doctorthing is confusing People,

(15:40):
people think we like sell leadsLike we gotta, we gotta
backpedal from this like wholegimmick of doctoring.
So I know that he met us in atMarketo in 2012.
That is never, ever, ever, Idon't give a shit how perfect
you think your data is.
That touchpoint that guy hasswitched.

(16:01):
Five times since that, likethere is no system in the world
that is going to tell Lead md,Hey, that$50,000 investment you
made in Marketo Summit in 2012had this brand impact there.
It does, it does not exist.
And I think that like for, fornot every company in the world,

(16:22):
but I think the majority of mypeers that I hear going down
this attribution rabbit holethat frankly, Mike and Drew just
did, I'm like, could we justfocus on like doing cool shit in
marketing that like is actuallyimpactful?
Cuz I think that like even thatlike.
When I look at events for usright now, which is the biggest
thing that everybody arguesabout in attribution, right?

(16:44):
Like attribution on digitaltouchpoints is like kind of,
it's like pretty straightforwardand it's pretty short term, but
when you get to longer termstrategies like brand building
strategies, which often eventsare right, like of course you
can do meetings at events, butit is, you're there to create an
impact, create a moment, createan experience in someone's mind
that sticks with them.
Almost a decade later, the only,like, nobody remembers an ad

(17:08):
they saw a decade ago on theinternet, right?
Like, right.
Like, those are not long-termstrategies.
And so the reality is, is thatlike the, the event component
gets a lot, gets a lot of shitfrom digital marketers and a lot
of shit from attribution peopleof like, oh, like this is, this
is how you divest events.
And it bothers me that that'sthe talk track because events.

(17:31):
Absolutely critical, but they dohave to be done well.
So like we all have been atevents where you've got human
beings sitting in the booth,hands in the pockets, waiting
for someone to come talk tothem.
The difference between executingon an event like that and
executing on an event where youdo a ton of prep, you make sure
everyone's clear on like, thisis a hustle strategy that we're

(17:53):
going to this event with.
And like that could make orbreak an event too.
So it's not just about, and Ithink that that.
that fluffier or like moreconceptual stuff is what
marketers are actively doing asuper shitty job at fixing
because they're so focused onlike, okay, what contribution to
the opportunities did that makeus?

(18:14):
And like to me, that's just thewrong conversation for the vast
majority of companies.
Not, not all of them.
Some people have their shittogether.
Should go work with Drew.
But like, yeah, I, I just thinklike so much of the attribution
conversation is like, why are wetalking about this?
Like we're investing a shit tonof money and stuff and not
executing it very well and it'snot working.

(18:35):
Like that's really, I.
a lot of marketing department'sstories.

Michael Hartmann (18:40):
Well, so that's So Drew, sorry, drew.
I know you gotta respond.
I'm gonna, uh, what I thoughtwas really interesting and is
kind of tying this back togetherwith your dis your, your
definition of attribution reallystruck a chord with me because I
think there's a ton of value inunderstanding how, how we win,
how we lose deals.
Right.
I think there's really likeunderstanding that journey.

(19:01):
But it, I, I don't, I actuallydon't think most people when
they're talking aboutattribution are thinking about
that.
They're thinking about, yeah,how do I, for, I can't think of
a better way to say like, how doI prove the value of marketing
to the business, which is at anaggregate level, and then it's
complicated math, and thenpeople roll their eyes.
But I think actually thestorytelling part is hugely

(19:24):
valuable.
It's just really hard to do at.

Drew Smith (19:29):
Yeah.
So yeah, I think, I think so.
Uh, I want to.
Respond to Andrea A.
Little bit.
So, Andrea, first off, you arepreaching to the choir about
events because I mean, before Icame to Lead MD I spent seven
years as an event managermanaging over a hundred trade
shows a year, 30 to 40, uh,smaller client appreciations

(19:50):
slash road show types of events,and three, like massive, you
know, multiple thousand peopleevents.
All right,

Mike Rizzo (20:00):
next year you're planning MOS

Drew Smith (20:01):
and pa.
Well, I don't do it anymorecause I don't, I don't wanna do
it anymore.
Mike Uh, I'll be there, but I, Idon't wanna do it.
Um, so that's ok.
Um, to your point, Andrea, yeah.
A lot of people suck at events.
Um, they do.
Um, and, and well, and I would,

Michael Hartmann (20:19):
I would take it further than just events.
It's like a lot of basicblocking and tackling, like
following up on leads quickly.
Right.
Things like that.
Absolutely.
Yeah.

Drew Smith (20:27):
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
Um, now when.
When I work with clients on, ontheir data, and particularly
once I get them up to, uh,implemented on an attribution
platform, I spend time in theirdata and I'm upwards now of
about a hundred differentclients.
And I see just for attribution,and I've seen clients that like

(20:49):
their attribution, pla, theirattribution data shows the value
of events.
It.
Events a lot of times withclients, even the ones that I
will tell you right now, eventhe ones that suck at events
attribution, the attribution forthose events is usually barely
high.
Um, because, because it's a,they, they're pulling in so many

(21:13):
new people and engaging with somany people at the events, and
those people are turning intoopportunities, whether they're
good at events or not.
sometimes they turn intoopportunities and, and so I
don't think.
I, I've not seen attribution asa way to divest from events.
I haven't, uh, I mean, I've seenattribution show that like

(21:35):
either you're, you're doingreally well with events or you
are horrible at events.
Um, you know, I, it, it's, it'sfunny because one of the, one of
the channels that I usually seethat it's.
With attribution is contentsyndication.
Um, it's, it's usually just,just ridiculously bad.
And I was working with a clienta couple of months ago and holy

(21:59):
shit, they were crushing contentsyndication.
It was like one of their topperforming channels, like second
or third.
I just talked

Mike Rizzo (22:07):
to.
Yeah, I just talked to, um, oneof the larger vendors out there
for, um, sort of live chat andthat same story came out.
They were

Drew Smith (22:18):
like, yeah, I mean, we're crushing it I, I literally
told my client, I was like, youhave the best results from
content syndication I've everseen, and it's not even remotely
close.
You should be doing like,Education events on how to do
content syndication well,because your results are so
incredibly good.
Um, they're like, no, we don't

Mike Rizzo (22:40):
want anybody to

Drew Smith (22:40):
take our leads.
Yeah.
Uh, she, she, like

Mike Rizzo (22:44):
anyone who's serving the same ICP is gonna be like

Drew Smith (22:47):
mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Um, well, yeah.
I mean, they, they'd have likeyears to catch up, obviously,
but, um, I mean, so, so I thinkthat, the attribution.
I've not seen attribution skewlike away from events or towards
certain channels.
It really, it, it in again, inmy experience, it tells you,

(23:09):
shows you what you're doing welland what you suck at.
And, and I've seen, I, I've seenclients that just, I mean,
honestly, could

Andrea Lechner-Becker (23:17):
you do that without attribution?
Um, I mean, come on.
Like, do they really, are theylike, oh my God, our attribution
is amazing?
Who?
Or like, our, our contentsyndications amazing.
Like, of course they like, comeon.
Right.
No,

Drew Smith (23:31):
they, I have no clue.
This, this client had no clueand they, they're, they're
really good at Marketo.
They have, they have Salesforce.
They're, they're doing the, likethe, the basics, Andrea, that,
that we used to teach class doat Lead md.
That was really good work.
And they're doing that stuff andthey had no clue how well
content syndication wasperforming.
They just didn't.

(23:51):
Um, and I'll, and I'll, and I'lluse an anecdote to give you an
example of, of.
Where attribution has, hasreally, really helped a client.
Um, and this is just oneanecdote, but, but it, it, it,
it made a big impact is, so Iwas working with, and Andrea,
you'll know the client when Iexplained it to them, I managed
their visible instance for fiveyears.
You know who it is.

(24:13):
Um, and they worked with their,their digital agency to launch a
new AdWords campaign.
And so they launched this.
and, you know, because their,their attribution was impeccable
because I managed it for fiveyears, Um, we knew that at the
45 day mark, this was when weshould start checking to see if

(24:34):
any of the leads that camethrough this new campaign had
started turning intoopportunities or not.
And so we went into theirvisible data.
and we were able to see thatlike this campaign was
generating just incredible MQslike, like generating tons of
leads.
All those leads were turninginto MQs cuz it was an auto
qualifier form.
It was a requested demo form.

(24:54):
Um, super low cost per leads,super low cost per mql.
Um, and we were able to trackthis because we had visible,
because it was.
Five specific keywords to onespecific landing page, which is
all the data that visible givesyou.
So we're looking at thisinformation, it's like that
information right there, thiscampaign is performing
fantastic, right?

(25:15):
So we then looked, and literallynone of those leads had turned
into a single opportunity.
we're like, oh shit, this is notactually performing well.
What's going on?
So we checked to make sure, likewere they being assigned to the
BDR correctly?
Yes.
Okay, great.
Uh, what is the current statusof those leads?
Uh, every single one of them hadbeen disqualified.

(25:36):
Well, why They'd beendisqualified.
Uh, they had been disqualifiedbecause they were a small mom
and pop shop.
We're talking nail salons,bakeries, uh, you know, barber
shops, stuff like that.
And this client had no solutionfor that.
That like profile of, of, ofcompany.
And so we, we immediately hitpause on the campaign so that

(25:57):
they didn't waste any more moneycause they were just throwing
money down the, down the trash.
And the only reason that we wereable to actually see all of this
is because I could run a reportthat tied these five keywords.
Not only to the fact that therewas no opportunities, but I
could also tie it specificallyto their current status in the

(26:18):
lead lifecycle and even thedisqualified reason in the lead
lifecycle because we had thisdata sitting in Salesforce, the
Visibles pushing intoSalesforce, and I could relate
it to other stuff, right?
So it was super, I mean this,this whole analysis took us like
10, 15 minutes over the courseof like three reports that we
built and.
We were able to completelydiagnose that this campaign was

(26:41):
was failing.
uh, because it was, it wasreaching the wrong people.
Um, which allowed us to thenanalyze the copy in the ad and
the co and the content on thelanding page and even the image
in the landing page and say,yeah, no, this, the everything's
too quaint, uh, in the contentand the image and in the way
that the, the, the, the contenton the, on the landing page was

(27:04):
that, that we had to like, helpthese people self-select out of
filling out the form.
Mm-hmm.
And so we made the changes andthen we were able to go back
after the changes and say, okay,did these changes actually make
an impact?
And the first thing we noticedis fewer leads filling out the
form, much higher cost per lead,much higher cost per mql.

(27:27):
But they were starting to turninto opportunities.
And so we were able to do thatsuper quickly, super easily.
We didn't have to stitchtogether Excel spreadsheets to
make it work.
It was just all right there ina, in a couple of reports in
Salesforce.

Andrea Lechner-Becker (27:42):
Okay, so if I could challenge just for a
hot second, right?
So like, who is the campaignmanager over?
Because I guess like in my mind,right, like if you're gonna
launch a brand new campaign onLinkedIn or wherever, right?
Like, and you're gonna work withan agency to do it.
I don't know, like I wouldn't bewaiting 45 days to even look at
that.
Like, you should be able toidentify immediately when you

(28:04):
look at those results coming inas a campaign.
Like campaign managers should bedoing that every fucking week,
right?
Like, that's insane to me.
Like a campaign manager shouldbe like, all right, like, what
leads did I get from this thing?
Oh my God, they're all, they'relike, they're totally not I C P.
Uh, we're doing something wrong.
I gotta address that immediatelywith my guy.
Like, that's kind of my point islike, I feel like sometimes like

(28:26):
people focus on the at, likethey invest like VPs, C level
people wanna invest all thistime in marketing attribution,
but it's like your team shouldbe.
Like, that's a, that's a, that'sa weekly, daily kind of task in
my mind.
Well, from like a campaignmanager, I, I heard, I

Mike Rizzo (28:43):
heard two things out of that from a, from a takeaway
perspective, which are hard, Ithink are hard to filter out,
uh, until you've, you know, beenaround for a little while.
Right.
I think we've all been aroundfor a little while and we're
hearing, we're hearing this, uh,with different ears.
Right.
If you're, if you're sort ofnewer into the landscape, my
personal takeaway of what Drewjust shared was like sort of two

(29:06):
things.
One, there was a system in placethat allowed them to do that
quickly, right?
And so he said, Hey, we didn'thave to stitch together
spreadsheets and a bunch ofstuff to try to figure this out.
We had tooling.
What, however you decided tocreate that system, whether it
was a software or you've builtthe, the spreadsheet models to

(29:27):
be able to handle the ingest ofall that stuff with web hooks.
It doesn't matter how you didit.
You built a system, you investedin something, you made it
easier.
Uh, the second piece is, uh,it's rigor, operational rigor,
right?
And so at the end of the day,you know, Andrea, you're saying
like, Hey, 45 days is a longtime.
I, I don't disagree.

(29:48):
I don't necessarily agree likeI, it, it was that company's
operational rigor that theydecided that that was acceptable
for them to analyze campaignperformance.
Um, maybe you should beanalyzing it a little sooner,
trying to make decisions sooner.
But at, at the end of the day,it's operational rigor.
Right.
You decided as a best practiceas an organization that after a
certain amount of.
We're gonna analyze theperformance of this and

(30:10):
ultimately, like I would pauseit that it, regardless of
whether you have a visible orwhatever version of the tool
that you built, it actuallycomes down to Andrea's point
that it is somebody's joboperationally.
From a like campaign opsperspective to go look at those
things and analyze thoseresults.
The question is like, withoutthat rigor, who would've asked

(30:32):
that question to begin with?
Right?
So Drew, you were like, uh, we,we, we did this because it was a
part of our practice.
It was a part of our systematicway of like, like looking at
things and attribution tools andhaving the system in place
allowed us to do that morequickly.
It isn't the success story of anattribution tool.
It's the success story of peopleputting in operational rigor and

(30:53):
utilizing the technology whetherthey have it or not, to be able
to go analyze the results andmake a decision.

Drew Smith (30:59):
That's, yeah, and, and as we all know, as we all
know, like, and, and this iskind of speaking to both Andrea,
Andrea's point, and Mike, yourpoint, as we all know, if
something is difficult to do,people don't.
Period.
They don't Yeah.
Mean pivot table,

Michael Hartmann (31:17):
you know, this un unless they're absolutely
forced

Drew Smith (31:20):
to.
Yeah.
I mean, people don't do it ifit's hard.
People are lazy.
Andrea, you know that uh, you,you, you, I mean, I think you
taught me that, um, when, when Ijoined Lead MD and so.
If you make things easy and youmake things, you know, like
easily accessible and you, you,you re remove the barriers to be

(31:42):
able to do these things thatmost organizations have.
And to my your point, it doesn'thave to be an attribution
software platform.
It, it has to be some sort ofoperational rigor and process in
place that makes this so thatit's not cumber.
Because if it's cumbersome,people don't do what Andrea
said, which is looking into thison a day-to-day basis.

(32:04):
But if you make it easy, whichis what the attribution
platforms do, it makes it easyto look at this on a day-to-day
basis or a 30 day basis, or a 45day basis, or whatever timeline
you deem to be reasonable foryour organization and
appropriate for yourorganization.
Then people.
But the barriers are so big somany times.

(32:24):
Totally.

Mike Rizzo (32:25):
Well, and it's, and it's just like, it's not, it's
like, don't try to boil theocean.
Right.
Like, uh, I'm working with, withmy old boss on some stuff around
HubSpot right now, just tryingto help'em out.
You know, they're a small team,right.
And, uh, we implemented UTMs andthey were like, wait a minute.
What is this Like,

Michael Hartmann (32:46):
how does this work?
Uh,

Mike Rizzo (32:47):
okay, now we are like every single partner blog
we've ever been on, we need tobe UT MD and ask them to go
update the links and all thesethings, right?
So their eyes have been openedand, and it's just like, let's
am small and Ms.
Small, right?
Like, let's just, you know what,Hey, you're working deal.
You're thinking about lead genwhen they come in.
We'll just stick with the firsttouch model for a while.

(33:09):
That's fine.
Accept that.
Right.
But like, don't try to boil theocean.
And, and, and then when you dohave a tool that allows you to
do a lot more, it's like stickwith something, be okay with,
it's not perfect Right.
Well

Michael Hartmann (33:22):
so at the end of the day, I, I, you know, what
I keep coming back to is cuz Iwas a big fan of just sort of,
it started when I did searchpaid search stuff, right.
It was like, really?
interesting to get suchimmediate feedback about what
was working and not working atthat level.
And when attribution modelingcame around, I was all like, oh,
on board.

(33:43):
But I've kind of softened onthat, but I don't think it's
like not valuable.
I think it's how you use it.
And I think there's a, I alwaysthink of like marketing
analytics or marketing reportingat multiple levels, right?
There's this, like the stuffthat the only, the ops people
care about.
our leads flowing right?
Is our database all of a suddengrowing.
Right.
You know, stuff like that.
The anomalies, right.

(34:03):
Just making sure that the, thepulse is working.
And then there's I think, alittle bit of a hybrid of what
Andrea was describing and youwere describing Drew of like the
tactical like.
is this program we're doingcampaign tactic, whatever it is,
right?
Performing as expected.
Uh, or, or whether it's a goalor like is it getting the right

(34:25):
people in?
All that kind of stuff.
And I think that doesn't reallyrequire attribution reporting.
In my case, I think, I alwaysthink now of attribution
reporting is sort of actually astep before what you described
as the storytelling, which islike at an aggregate level.
Is our marketing are, are thoseall those tactics, right?
Are they delivering, like whichones are delivering the best

(34:46):
value?
But that's really more of a howdo we spend our marketing, our
limited marketing resources,right?
As opposed to a credit game.
And then I think thestorytelling piece is really
what you want to talk about.
With people outside ofmarketing, right?
Cause sales, like, we got thisdeal and here are all the things
that worked right?
Sales did this inside sales didthis.

(35:06):
Or I guess inside sales doesn'tuse BDRs, did this, marketing,
did this.
Marketing did this other stuff.
In the middle.
In the middle, they came to thetrade show.
like the story about it, bothwhether you won or lost, right.
That's like, again, the storymatters, right?
I, I'm curious It's the audiencetoo.
Right?
So I think what I struggle withis I'm, I'm kind of with, with

(35:27):
Andrea and that like, there's alot of stuff that can be done
that's just effort, right?
Um, I often equate marketinganalytics reporting, and I've
got a guy on my team that wetalk about all the time, he's
like, you know, don't like do aninitial report.
Don't try to boil the ocean.
Don't try to do the like Ialways like people ask, like, I
want a dashboard.
Like, no fucking way.
Right?
we'll give you a part of itbecause you're asking for

(35:48):
something that's way toocomplicated.
And, um, Um, you actually willask more questions once you see
of the initial stuff.
So like, let's start small.
Yeah.
And I know, but it's gonna be,it's like, it's heavy lifting,
hard work.
Usually that's

Mike Rizzo (36:03):
what's happening on the client side for, or like my
old boss right now, they'relike, we want a dashboard.
And it's like, well, what do youwant it to show you?
No,
you

Michael Hartmann (36:09):
don't.
They don't know.
They don't know.
And they're like, well, uh,

Drew Smith (36:13):
you know, we come up with all these D

Andrea Lechner-Becker (36:14):
things.
Yeah.
Like Drew has a great, like, Ialways love Drew what you talk
about with reporting, like howyou should build the reports.
Chime men.
Yeah.
Do

Drew Smith (36:22):
you

Mike Rizzo (36:22):
wanna hear that?
Wait, uh, I wanna hear that.
And I just want to echo likeagain, um, what you're saying,
Michael, and, and I think all ofus are, are sort of, uh, uh,
like, uh, coagulating aroundLike, uh, the, the story you're
telling and the audience you'retelling it too, really matters.
Right.
And like I, I was on with um,rev.

(36:42):
Sure.
They were like, they did thislike meetup for all these folks.
They're a relatively neworganization in the space that
talks in and around thisanalytics thing.
And, and I made that, that samepoint where I was like, well,
Where are you at in your lifecycle of your business?
Are you trying to raise fundsbecause a a, and specifically if
you're trying to raise funds,what's the story you're telling
your investors?

(37:03):
Is it, I have a really stronggo-to-market motion because
people are using my free productand they're signing up in
droves?
That's a very different storythan trying to attribute
revenue, right?
Oh, look at us.
We're signing revenue, revenue,revenue.
And so you can go pull all thedata in all the different which
ways that you want, but it's thenarrative that you wanna build.
And the output that you'retrying to seek.
Are you going to the board formore money?

(37:24):
Are you going for moreinvestment, more resources?
How do you wanna pull thattogether so that you can tell
the right story to reach theright outcome?
And so Drew, I definitely wannahear about building

Drew Smith (37:34):
reports.
Yeah.
Well, Mike, what you said isactually like a perfect segue
into the, the, thisconversation.
So, and this is where I thinkmost organiz.
Missed the mark.
Um, and, and it's, it's, it'ssomething that I do when I work
with clients that I, I teachthem this one.
Once they get implemented with,with visible or whatever, I
teach them this, this framework.

(37:55):
And it's, it's, it's aboutasking questions.
And you have to start with avery narrow and well-defined
question.
Before you build a report, giveme a dashboard.
Great.
For what?
What's on the dashboard?
How's marketing performing?
I can't tell you.
Because you haven't definedperforming.
That is not a narrow andspecific question.

(38:18):
But if you want me to tell youfor the marketing activities
that took place last quarter,how they turned into
opportunities and ordeals, I canbuild a report that answers that
question.
I can also build a report thatanswers the question for the
opportunities that were createdlast quarter, how did marketing
influence those opportunities?

(38:38):
And those are two vastlydifferent reports with different
data sets.
and different filters andparameters in the reports,
they're both very equallyvaluable.
But if you don't come from the,from a question answering
standpoint, you will neveractually be able to
differentiate those twodifferent reports because

(38:58):
somebody's gonna come to you,like Andrea's gonna come to her
campaign manager and go, Hey,how did marketing perform last
quarter?
And that person's gonna be like,I, I don't know.
How did, what do you mean?
Well, okay.
I'm specifically asking thequestion of for the marketing
activities that took place, howdid those turn into
opportunities and deals?
Hey, I could build that report.
That's easy.

(39:19):
Everybody on this, on this, thiscall right now knows how to
build that report when you makeit that specific.
But when you just have thesebroad general questions or, or
even just statements, nobody canbuild that report cause it
doesn't have.

Andrea Lechner-Becker (39:34):
It also is just like, I mean, a report
is for insights so that you cando something different or
better.
So like one of the ways that Itend to do that with like
campaign managers, because I dothink you have a, you have a
good point, Mike, that like eeveryone's scope is really
different, right?
Like I been around a long timeat Lead md I consulted hundreds

(39:57):
of organizations.
Then you move to the C level andyou kind of get like totally
different insights intodifferent kinds of conversations
that are happening, not only atCMOs, but like at CEOs, right?
Like, um, and so I think I dohave a point that I wanna make
there, but like when I talk toyounger people about campaigns,

(40:17):
like I find that even just likeaggregate data is really hard to
conceptualize.
So like one of the things that Iask them is like, what are the
three.
Best humans that this touchedand tell me why, like what
resonated with them do youthink?
Unless you can hop on a callwith them, which most people
aren't gonna do with youunfortunately as a little

(40:37):
marketer, but like what do you,what?
Like what's your hypothesis?
Like what resonated about whatwe did that we can like learn
and continue to lily pad.
uh, further on because I thinkthat like, that's ultimately
what reporting or dashboards istrying to do.
And I think that a lot of peoplejust like build shit to build
shit.
And it's like, okay, but likenow, now what?

(40:59):
Like we, we generated 45 leadsfrom that LinkedIn campaign.
Okay?
Is that better or worse thanlast month?
Is that better, worse than lastyear?
Is there seasonality to ourbusiness, to our campaigning
that we're seeing come through?
Like, like that level of detailagain?
My opinion is that too manypeople are getting sucked into
like the technology conversationand losing those conversations.

(41:22):
Yeah.
That are the actual valuable

Drew Smith (41:24):
one.
Yeah.
Yeah, totally.
And

Mike Rizzo (41:26):
like one of the, um, uh, this happened recently where
I was provided a data set basedon some like product usage data.
And, uh, it was just sort ofhanded over from, from the
product person and they're like,look, I pulled all this stuff.
Here's the results from likeyear over year, da da da, da da
da da.
And I was like, And now what?
Like what am I supposed to dowith this?

(41:47):
I ha like as this.
Marketing type person, right?
Like what?
Like what do you want me, whatis, what is your expectation of
sharing this information?
And, you know what I ended updoing?
I'm gonna totally bridge intolike a little bit of this, uh,
AI world that we're all dealingwith right now.
I ended up just copy pastingthat data table, putting it into
the G P T and going, what canyou tell me about this data set?

(42:12):
And it, it did a little of itsown analysis and said, oh,
here's a year over year thing.
And then it started, to get meto think about, well, what, what
other questions could I beasking?
Mm-hmm.
And so I don't wanna plug forall those tools that are out
there, but if you're a littlestuck right now and you got
blank paper syndrome, go for it.
Plug that data set in and say,what could you tell me?
And then get your brain churningon, well, what questions should

(42:33):
I be asking?
Because to your point, Andrea,like when you're earlier in your
career, that's really hard to,like, what a question should I
be asking?
right?
Because your executives are sofar removed at this point that
if they're not coming to you,Any type of request and you're
provided the, the ocean of datathat you can just go analyze.
You have to know what to ask oryou just have to be inquisitive

(42:55):
enough to try to come up with aquestion.
And, and sometimes that's reallyhard to do.
And so anyway, like

Andrea Lechner-Becker (43:00):
Yeah, cuz I, I think like the, the big
thing is like as a C levelmarketer, and I think I see this
with my peers, I hate bigcompanies.
Uh, I've always been on small,scrappy little marketing teams
because I kind of can't stand,um, I kind of can't stand all
the dynamics of a big company,just to be honest.

(43:21):
So like, so I, but I do hearfrom my peers all the time that
like, they are not equipped withthe right messages, and I think
that that's part of the problem,right?
It's like they've invested inall of these.
But they still are just now,they have like a shit ton of
data and a shit ton ofreporting, but they still aren't
gathering the insights that theyneed from their teams.
And no one's bubbling up so thatthey can't say like, Hey, we

(43:43):
optimized our, our digitaladvertising this quarter by 12%
doing these types of things.
And that was facilitated.
Like our technology stack orwhatever that story is, even
explaining that up to a CEO e o,because CEOs and I will say
like, especially in sas, liketimes, times be tough right now,

(44:06):
folks, like if you are justsitting in your operations chair
and you're like, I'm, I'm good.
Like.
I don't know if you are.
Right, right.
Like you really have to beequipping whoever your seniors
executive is with the story oflike why operations is important
to invest in, why now, why ourtech stack is exactly right.

(44:27):
How you've optimized it.
Like you need to be empoweringwhoever is talking to your CEO
about that stuff or.
it, it looks easy to, to cut.
Like, I think to your, like youmade this point earlier, Mike,
about like, you know, we'resitting in, or I, I think
Michael maybe like, we'resitting in a chair where it's
like we care about the lead flowand we understand how like,

(44:48):
impactful a tool like Lean datais, but like your seat mo has no
idea.
for the most part.
Mm-hmm.
and like, and, and so I thinkthat like, that would be my big
call to arms on this likeattribution topic in general is.
If, if you even have a spideysense, there is a thriftier way
for you to, to do this.

(45:09):
Like, I think it, it's going tobe tough to continue to get
organizations to invest in this,in sas cuz like it is, times are
tough.
Like we all see the layoffs, weall see all the stuff, so,

Drew Smith (45:22):
yeah.
Well, and, and I, I thinkAndrea, there there's two
reasons why I see, uh, in, in myexperience, why I.
CMOs, even when they, theyinvest in attribution, they
still can't get to the insights,um, that, that, you know, you're
wanting, and Mike, you'retalking about, you know, what so
what, right.

(45:43):
Um, the, the, the, the, the tworeasons I see are, are two
things.
Number one, they don't invest.
They, they've invested in the,in the technology, but they
haven't invested in people.
Um, and they have nobody ontheir team that is an actual
analyst.
And the, the second part of thattwo reasons is they, they put in

(46:07):
analysis in the hands of peoplethat, quite frankly, like.
Numbers and data people.
Yeah.
How many people do you know thatgot into marketing?
Because they don't like math.
they're, they're, they'recreatives.
They're graphic designers.
They're copywriters.
They wanna write a novel.
Nope, Nope.
No intentional thing there, Butlike, they wanna write a novel,

(46:30):
they wanna write, I'm a unicorn.

Andrea Lechner-Becker (46:32):
I like

Drew Smith (46:33):
it.
Exactly.
Yes, exactly.
But like they, they, they justwant to, like, they, they, they
don't wanna deal with numbersand, but yet they're, they're
being asked to do, Prettycomplicated math and analysis
that they never wanted to do inthe first place.
Yeah.
So I totally agree.
You can't expect those peopleto, to bring those types of

(46:54):
insights.
Yeah.
And if you expect that, yeah.

Michael Hartmann (46:56):
I'll show you.
I think it's one of the, I thinkit's one of the biggest gaps in
a lot of organizations is, andyou know, I've, I've thought
about like what would, if I wasbuilding into marketing ops
team, like what would be,probably wouldn't be a data
analytics person as the firsthire, but it'd probably be
second.
Right?
Any operation.
Campaign support and all that.
Probably higher priority, butthat would be a very close
second these days.

(47:17):
So, uh, we only have a few moreminutes.
Uh, least I do.
And, but, uh, I do, youmentioned stuff about AI and
machine learning.
Drew, I'm just cur like, I'mtrying to wrap my head around
like, is this just.
BS stuff that is people arethrowing away around the term or
is like, what is the realpotential value of that in terms
of reporting and analytics and,and attribution?

Drew Smith (47:38):
Yeah.
I, I think where, uh, I see themost value from AI and machine
learning in the future is, uh,first off is anomaly.
So that anecdote that I gave,that, that is where you have,
um, you know, we, we, we sawthat this campaign wasn't
turning into opportunities,right?

(47:59):
Most of that analysis all theway up until the point where we
had to actually analyze thelanding page and the copy and
the content could have been doneby a machine.
They could have looked at, Hey,this, this, this ad campaign is
falling well below the medianperformance of an ad, of a
similar ad campaign.
So I'm gonna raise a red flagand say that somebody needs to

(48:20):
come look at this.
Um, and the best part about thatis when we talk about marketers
that, that hate math and, andthey don't know which questions
to ask, which I think we allagree is a, is is a major
challenge.
Anomaly detection helps youunderstand which questions
should we be asking.
Where should I be looking,right?
Look, right now, something'sgoing on.
Look, focus your attention here.

(48:42):
Um, that also helps you siftthrough the sea of data to find
the stuff that, where you mightactually be able to find impact,
right?
Yeah.
So I think anomaly detection's abig one.
And the other one is, isAI-based recommendation engines.
So, you know, you have acampaign that's performing
really, really well, and thenanother campaign that's
performing horribly.
And AI can say, Hey, look, thiscampaign's performing really

(49:05):
well.
This campaign sucks.
You, you could, you couldprobably take the money from
this one and put it in this oneand get better results.
Uh, and again, that one I think,is a little bit further away
because it's more complex andcomplicated.
I think the anomaly detection,

Michael Hartmann (49:19):
defining, defining, defining what is, what
is success or effective, right,is not a single metric.
Yeah.

Mike Rizzo (49:27):
And I think like, uh, sorry, Andrea, oh, go ahead.

Drew Smith (49:30):
How about you go

Andrea Lechner-Becker (49:31):
first?
Well, I was just gonna say, uh,what I'd really like one of
these companies to do is.
like the thing that we alwaystalked about so much, drew, but
it's benchmarking, right?
Because like it was just, Ithink that because it really is
just like, okay, this, thiscampaign is performing shitier
than your other campaigns.
Like, well that's just methough.
Like what if my competitors'campaigns or other people in my

(49:53):
category are fucking killing itand I'm just doing something so
wrong that actually.
All these campaigns suck.
It's not just this one that isworse than the other four.
It's all five of them that aretotal

Mike Rizzo (50:04):
junk.
And that's where I was gonna gowith That's exactly, so I'm, I'm
glad you went.
That's where I was gonna go withit.
I think like, you know, this aiml stuff, what's interesting
about it as, so from, from thiswonderful, uh, organization,
this community that we have, I,I get to like peek into so many
of these different things thatare happening with different,

(50:25):
you know, technologies and.
You know, this, this warehousenative application
infrastructure stuff that'shappening and people who are
gonna architect models ofgo-to-market technology stacks
that are all based on sort ofthese warehouse native apps in
the future, that's a hugeopportunity to to, to use a lot
of this technology.

(50:46):
Um, to try to look at yourspecific data, but where I think
it becomes interesting for theplayers who, um, aren't building
warehouse native apps to helpthose organizations, the
HubSpots, the sales forces, youknow, on all those is if they
start to have a, you know,ideally a a, obviously, I assume
a legal way to look across theorganizations.

(51:09):
From like a Databox perspectivewhere they're pulling in
benchmark data right now, right?
And they're able to give youinsights relative to like kind
companies sending emails at thefrequency that you are.
This stuff at scale is onlydoable with a AI and ml and it's
only doable on SaaS platforms.
That are built across lots oflots of organizations.

(51:33):
If you move into the futurewhere people are building their
tech stack on their own datawarehouse, and you're large
enough, that could be reallyinteresting for you, but you end
up losing that contextual valuethat Andrea just brought up,
which is ideally in the future,A I M L applications at the SaaS
level are looking across theirentire client base, within your
specific vertical, and they'reable to give you insights that

(51:54):
say, Just so you know, you'reunderperforming, not just on
your own performance, butrelative to the norm of those in
your category.
And that I think is gonna be areally interesting future as
this technology becomes moreevolved and.
And accessible for the HubSpotsand the sales forces of the
world to go build thatframework.
Right.
I I, I wouldn't be surprised

Michael Hartmann (52:16):
if sounds, sounds really straightforward.

Drew Smith (52:19):
next year, not difficult at all.
No.
Yeah,
so,

Michael Hartmann (52:23):
well, I, like I, I said I, I think we could
probably go on for a whilelonger, unfortunately.
Get a wrap up here.
So, drew, Andrea, thank you somuch for joining us.
Um, if, if folks want to kind ofkeep up with what you're doing,
what's the best place for them?
To do that hit me

Andrea Lechner-Becker (52:39):
up on LinkedIn.
I'm the only Andrea Lechnerhyphen Becker in the fucking
world, so That's right.
I'm easy to find.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Bruce Smith is not the onlyAndrew Smith all.
I'll

Michael Hartmann (52:49):
let him and, and Rizzo, Mike Rizzo is not the
only Mike Rizzo too.
We know that.
Yeah.
Let alone in Marketing

Mike Rizzo (52:56):
Ops We've got two of us in marketing Op at

Drew Smith (53:00):
least.
Yeah, Yeah, Andrew, Andrea beatme to the joke.
I'm on LinkedIn as well, but uh,I'm difficult to find so
probably easier to find a tricause it's the only attribute in
the world.
There you go.
So, uh, find that and thenyou'll find me.
And cuz trying to find an AndrewSmith is like trying to find a

(53:21):
needle in a stack of needles.
You
know?

Mike Rizzo (53:23):
You know where both of them.
they're both hanging out in theMopro Slack channel.
There you go.
You go.
Absolutely.
There's, there's that too.
Although, and that too, Andrea'slike, not always there, cuz
she's pretty busy.
But, you know, she'll poke herhead in sometimes.

Drew Smith (53:37):
She's, she's big time.
She's big time.
I'll respond messages

Michael Hartmann (53:41):
Yeah, she does.
She does.
I'm just, all right.
Well, hey y'all, thanks so much,uh, to all our listeners.
Thank you.
And, uh, hope you enjoyed this.
We'll see you next time.
Bye everyone.
All right,

Drew Smith (53:50):
bye.
Thanks all.
See you.
Thanks everybody.