January 13, 2023 • 44 mins
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In this episode, we talk with Shikha Pakhide about the impacts of the ever-growing Martech landscape. Shikha is currently Global Marketing Director with X0PA AI, a B2B SaaS platform to improve the hiring process. Prior to joining X0PA AI, she held several general marketing, product management and leadership roles. She is passionate about Go To Market strategy, Brand Awareness, Account Based Marketing, Account Based Experience and Demand Generation. Shikha has been recognized as the Most Innovative Martech leader by the World Marketing Congress. She is an active member of CMO Alliance Community and CMO Council.
Tune in to hear:
- Shikha's exposure to Martech tools and platforms and her take and experience with the overall growth of martech tools.
- What she sees as the biggest challenges as a marketer with the Martech space.
- Lessons or guiding principles she has learned and applied when thinking about how data flows between applications/platforms, and the downstream impact on analytics.
- How the challenges with data and analytics affect Shikha's ability to articulate the ROI (or benefits) from investing in Martech or programs.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Michael Hartmann (00:03):
Hello, and welcome to another episode of
OpsCast, brought to you bymarketing ops.com, powered by
the MO Pros.
I am your host, MichaelHartmann.
Joined today by no otherco-hosts, Naomi and Mike could
not make it, and there's areason why.
So our guest today is fromIndia.
So challenges with scheduling.
Uh, as you'll, as we get going,you'll find out that we
(00:24):
actually, this is our thirdattempt at doing this.
So, thankfully, uh, our guestShikha Pakhide I still, you
know, I practiced it over andover.
I think I still got it.
anyway, uh, is joining us.
It is evening here in the USand, uh, more early morning in,
in India for her.
So thank you for joining us.
(00:45):
And I guess she is here todiscuss the impacts of ever
growing Mar MarTech landscape.
And I think her perspective, uh,being in India is gonna be
helpful.
She is currently the globalmarketing director of zpa AI at
B2B SaaS platform to improve thehiring process.
So prior to joining, joiningzpa, She held several general
(01:05):
marketing, product managementand leadership roles.
She is passionate aboutgo-to-market strategy, brand
awareness, account basedmarketing, account based
experience, and demand.
Gen Sheika has been recognizedas the most innovative MarTech
leader by the World MarketingCon Congress.
She is an active member of CMOAlliance Community and the CMO
Council.
So Sheika, thank you for joiningus and my apologies.
(01:26):
Messing up your name.
Shikha Pakhide (01:29):
No worries, Michael.
Uh, thanks a lot, uh, for havingme, uh, on today's shows.
Uh, sure.
You know, I, I'm, I'm reallyexcited, uh, to share my journey
and, uh, my
Michael Hartmann (01:38):
learnings.
Oh, great.
No, I think I, I think ouraudience is gonna be, um, Well,
I love that we are, we havegotten a number of people over
the course of the last year orso who are outside of the us.
I mean, our, our audience is in,most of our guests are, are
definitely US, north America, Iguess I should say North
America, cuz it's Naomi who's.
Our co-host is in Canada, butum, yeah, it, it's, I think it's
(02:03):
one of the things that I, I'm,I'm really excited about is that
we've had guests from Europe,from India, from Australia, um,
yeah, we just need a few otherkind of locales and I think
we'll have more and more of the,the globe covered.
So why don't we, so youmentioned your journey, your
career journey.
So why don't we start there?
Why don't you share with ourlisteners your experience as a
marketer and leader, um, and.
(02:26):
really as part of this, one ofthe things I like to hear about,
are there key people orinflection points in your career
that you think were important inkind of getting you to where you
are today?
Shikha Pakhide (02:37):
Yeah, sure, Michael.
I think, um, like any other, uh,you can say budding marketing,
uh, professional, uh, so, uh, myinitial years of journey was,
uh, you could say a, a littlesimilar wherein I was trying to
go that where my interest areaslies.
So, uh, you could say,Initially, for the, at least for
the five to six years, I wasdoing a lot of sales and
(02:57):
business development, a lot oftraveling, um, trying my hands
with, uh, all the new thingsabout marketing.
To be honest, I wasunconsciously and
subconsciously, subconsciouslydoing marketing.
But I, to be honest, I didn'trealize that, okay, I'm, I'm
actually doing marketing.
Uh, but then after that, youknow, uh, I took a pause and,
uh, and I wanted to understandmyself that, okay, uh, now.
(03:19):
A lot of experimentation hashappened.
So what next?
You know, where I would like to,uh, l uh, spend most part of my
journey, uh, to understand that,okay, this is, this is where I
belong, right?
So that's how, uh, my journeybegan.
Um, uh, in totally you can say,Core marketing.
And then, um, uh, when I sayco-marketing, so to be honest, I
(03:41):
learn everything from A to Z ofmarketing when I started working
with Ventil Systems, uh, whichis a software solution provider
for infrastructure industry.
So again, a very niche industry,uh, when we talk about
infrastructure, uh, and, uh,when, uh, we are talking about,
uh, The buyer persona, whom wewere serving over there, because
it was all about, uh,architects, it was all about
(04:02):
engineers.
It was all about owneroperators.
So, so that was very interestingbecause again, that was very new
for me.
And as you know, that the, uh,marketing team was always short
stocked.
We, we always have
Michael Hartmann (04:13):
zero.
I don't, I have no idea whatyou're talking about,
Shikha Pakhide (04:17):
We always have, uh, zero to no budget almost.
And, uh, so of course then I, Iwas, you know, along with my
manager and uh, I was handlingSouth Asia and, uh, CPAC region,
Southeast Asia, Australia andNew Zealand region.
So there, you know, again, youknow, understood that how a
campaign need to be built.
You know, when we talk aboutfrom bottom.
(04:37):
Top, you know, so first Iunderstood that, but then later
on it the, you can say thestrategy funnel flipped.
So then I started understanding,okay, you know, this is the
business school, this is howmarketing needs to fit in.
And then you know how we aretalking about the campaigns, et
cetera.
So again, uh, there as well, uh,learn everything about, um,
(04:59):
building up the campaign pages,working along with, uh, sales
leadership, which is again, avery, I think, fundamental when
you talk about the alignment.
Uh, and then
Michael Hartmann (05:08):
again, so, uh, so I, you, you brought it up a
second time, so I'm, I waswaiting to interrupt or ask you
a follow up, but now I, I feellike I want to interrupt here a
little bit.
So, um, this is unscripted, so.
Um, I'm really curious about,because you brought up sales and
you said you, you sold for awhile and traveled.
And so, uh, I also, for a shortperiod of my time, my career was
(05:29):
in sales and it, um, it wasreally, really hard.
Way harder than I thought it waswhen I, when I dis, I raised my
hand to, to take a spot.
So, and, and I think it.
it, it really changed how Ithought about marketing when I
got into marketing more as acore thing.
So I'm curious, do, like, do youthink it would be valuable for
(05:50):
people who are in marketing andmarketing ops to better
understand what it's like to bein the shoes of a salesperson
right out there knocking ondoors, pick up the phone to
call, getting hung up on, right.
All those kinds of things.
I, I'm just like, what is yourperspective and I'm, I'm.
I, I'm gonna guess that theexperience is fairly similar
(06:11):
globally, but, um, I, I know I,I had times where I was hung up
on and called names and thingslike that.
I suspect it was probably likethat.
It is not an easy task.
So for all you people out therewho are in marketing and
marketing ops and, you know, naysaying sales, I'm not saying
there aren't people who deservethat, but there are like, it is
not the easy job that you mightthink it.
(06:34):
Uh,
Shikha Pakhide (06:35):
absolutely Michael.
It's, it's not at all an easyjob, and I have, uh, you can say
huge respect for them, uh,because, uh, it, it's hard.
It's very hard, uh, because herein, uh, they are, uh, most of
the time they are dealing com,uh, with the sales of a
productor service where theydon't have.
you can say most of the backing,or most of you can say, lack of
(06:57):
the proper material back.
That's why I think, um, themisalignment comes into the
picture because sales are outthere into the market.
You know, they, they're actuallyspeaking to a lot of accounts.
They're speaking to theprospects, so they really know
the.
Pulse that what exactly they'rewanting.
But when they bring back thatrequirement to the teams,
whether it's the product team orwhether it's to the marketing
team, I think that empathy, thatthing needs to come out that,
(07:21):
hey, you know, when they'resaying something, when they're
asking for something, so let'srespect that, uh, because they
have got the, you can saythey're, they're out there in
the market.
They know that, uh, what thingwill resonate with them, what
kind of messaging will resonatewith them.
But here, and I think ifmarketing and product, you know
what, what I also used to.
Uh, no, before I, I'm guilty ofdoing that.
So wherein when you are workingin a silos and you say that, no,
(07:43):
you know, this does, thisdoesn't suit well, this doesn't
sound well.
We have to craft that message inthat particular way.
That is not something which youcan say gives a tick.
To the prospect to think aboutyour product or about your
service.
Mm-hmm.
So, uh, marketing a product, youknow, is not only about
marketers or, uh, you know aboutthat, but then even for the
(08:06):
product marketing team as well,or people who are dealing in the
industry, marketing as well,they all need to work together.
The need to, you can say, comeout of their own box and
understand that let's putourselves in their shoes because
that's how they are pitching it.
And to be honest, over the, uh,past, uh, so many years,
Michael, I have realized thatevery marketer, if they don't
(08:28):
know how to pitch their product,if they have not picked the,
picked up the phone and did apitch like an s t r or went and
then sat in those accountdiscussions, I don't think so.
They deserve to be in themarketing.
That time, we don't know what isthe thing, how they need to
design, what is the kind ofstrategy and execution plan they
need to do that.
So for me, understanding thispivotal role, how sales is made
(08:54):
when you are working in anyorganization, yes.
Any product service, I thinkit's so, so
Michael Hartmann (08:58):
important.
Well, and I, I think you touchedon something that, um, I think
it's particularly.
Bad in B2B or for B2B companiesis just the language that they
use on their websites.
You know, I, I cannot, I mean,it's, it's, it, it, it probably
stands out when I run across aB2B company's website where I
(09:20):
read their homepage and it'svery clear, oh, this is what you
do, right?
This is what you sell.
Um, as often as not, I wouldsay, That's not the case, right?
There's a lot of words,beautiful pictures or whatever,
but it's.
what's, what is it you do rightin plain language.
And I think there's, there'ssomething about that that's
(09:41):
missing.
And I, and I think that's, Ithink so maybe where you and I
both like having done that.
Like when you're out theretalking to customers right?
And you're, you, you have tofigure out the language to use
with them that may or may notmatch what.
Product marketing or themarketing, you know, content
team would like it to be.
Um, so there's this, I thinkthere's a balancing act, right?
(10:02):
So, uh, particularly a challengeprobably for companies where
they're, it is, they're, they'rekind of breaking new ground,
right?
A new market, a new kind ofproduct.
So, all right, so I, sorry Itotally derailed your story
about your career, but I wasThat's okay.
Fascinated.
I'm always look like it catchesmy ear.
Um, all the time when I hearabout people who are in
(10:23):
marketing who've actually beenin sales shoes.
Cause I think their perspectiveon, uh, uh, marketing is
different in a lot of cases.
Um, and I generally would say ina better way.
In a good way.
So do you, was there more toyour story?
Let's, let's, so let's keep ongoing there if you want, and, or
(10:44):
we can switch to switch gears.
Uh, no,
Shikha Pakhide (10:47):
no, I'm totally okay.
As I said that, uh, over thepast, uh, you can see when I
talk about the experience andthen, uh, uh, the points which
were like, uh, enlightening forme.
One was definitely the alignmentpiece because, uh, there was a
particular project when I wasworking at Bentley and then I
had to work very closely withsales and producting, and then
(11:08):
make sure that we all aretalking the same language and I
have to.
Give them the trust that I'myour enabler.
You know, I'm not on the otherside.
We all on one side, there's no,there are no two sides when you
are working in one organization.
So that was one of the pivotalpoint.
And second point was, uh,wherein I worked closely with my
IT team.
(11:29):
On all the collaboration of thetools.
Uh, so those are, you can saytwo highs, uh, wherein, uh, lot
of, um, uh, revolutions about,uh, the marketing concepts came
into the Bing.
And then, okay, there is a totaldifference between what goes in
the theory and what is there inthe prac, prac, practicality.
Michael Hartmann (11:49):
Oh yeah, definitely.
I mean, it's, it's, uh, there'sa, one of my favorite business
books is one called Execution,the Discipline of the Subtitles,
the, the Discipline of GettingThings Done.
And it was co-authored by anacademic and a, and a seasoned
business professional.
And I thought it had a goodbalance.
Uh, so the academic is romsheron.
(12:10):
And the, the, the businesspractitioners, Larry Bossy and
the, the combination of thosetwo was really, I think I've not
run across another book that wasnot either just someone owns
someone's own story about theirbusiness success or an academic
one where, where it combinedthose two.
So I think that.
that point of is, is well taken.
(12:31):
Um, so you, you said, youmentioned it that you worked
with at that spot is, is thatwhen you started getting
exposure to marketing technologyplatforms as well and that the
landscape there, cause I knowthat was one of the things that
you, we talked about, um, kindof prepar preparing for this is,
and I think you used the termlike the, the, um, the marktech
space is coming up and I don'tknow, I can't remember if, if,
(12:54):
um, if you're talking about the,the sort of the explosion.
Marketing technology platformsand tools?
Uh, uh, in general, or if youwere talking about in, in India,
in, in that area of the world inparticular.
Yeah,
Shikha Pakhide (13:08):
Michael, I think, um, when I was, uh, when
I was involved in thatparticular project, because one
of the main part was, which Ithink every management suffers,
is that they do have a lot oftools, but they don't talk to
each other.
That's such a pain point becauseyou are investing so much, but
again, you have to take.
The help of so many businessanalysts or marketing operation
(13:30):
team members to make sense outof all the data, which is coming
from all the different sources.
So that was one of the pointsyou can say the key objective of
this particular project, whereinI have to make sure.
The systems which we have, thetools which we have specifically
in marketing, in sales, and inwith the inside sales team, how
(13:52):
we have to make sure that theyare talking to each other,
they're integrating well, andthe data is coming out right
because.
How we define as a lead in oneparticular system, that's
exactly not equal to anothertool, right?
Michael Hartmann (14:07):
So for, for our, listen, for our listeners,
I've got this, I've got thissilly grin on my face because
like, I totally agree with this.
Like the word lead it, the wordcustomer, the word campaign,
right?
They're all ones that have.
different general meetings todifferent people as well as if
you get into systems and theyhave specific meetings in those
cases too, and they're alwaysthe same.
Uh, anyway, sorry to interrupt.
Shikha Pakhide (14:30):
No, no, that's okay.
Because I think that's one ofour, uh, holy grail kind of
stuff, right?
Wherein we are always trying toachieve.
But yeah, we need tools, butyes, we also need them to be
integrated.
Well, and, and then, uh, Ithink, uh, one of the point
which, um, marketers are theperson who's involved.
Valuation and implementation ofthe particular tool.
(14:50):
The myth that is that wheneverany new technology is being
introduced in any team or in anyorganization, it takes time.
It takes time to be absorbed.
It takes time to be implemented.
It takes time to be adapted inprinciple.
and in the practical way as wellbecause, okay, say for example
(15:11):
we are taking any, um, outreachtool or we are talking about any
ABM platform, but then in theorythey're gonna do wonders.
But then unless and until thereis a proper discipline in using
that, making sure that you areaware about all the features,
only then you'll be able toextract the real R roi.
It's not about that, okay, wepaid the dollar amount, we did
(15:33):
the implementation, and now weare gonna be sitting and then,
hey, digital, you log.
Did you check in?
Did you go through the reports?
But then later on you, youmissed that point that they do
not understand that why theyshould be using that.
The why is very important,Michael, because in any of the
market tool, because again, youknow, we, we all know that sales
are so hard pressed of time,whether it's sales or whether
(15:55):
it's inside sales team, what isthey need to achieve their
numbers and then till today theyare the ones who have, you can
say, uh, Very, you can say avery prominent role in the
decision making because they arethe one who is bringing the
business, right?
So whatever they're gonna besaying that this tool doesn't
work, this tool is gonna take alot of my time.
(16:17):
No, this is a total base.
C-suite is gonna listen to them.
They're not gonna listen to the,you can say the CMO that, Hey,
you know what, uh, we got that.
And then we, we know that and weanticipate it's gonna do three x
or 10 x wonders to our dollarpipeline.
Uh, CSU is not gonna listen tothe CMO there.
He's gonna listen to the.
Person who is driving thebusiness.
(16:40):
And as a second part is, uh,when we are talking about this
all in, in, you know, thing, theinitial evaluation, they have to
be involved.
They, they really have to be ininvolved.
If they're not there, I thinkit's always good to miss.
Uh, implementing or buying thatparticular technology that's,
that's, you know, my experienceand my belief.
Michael Hartmann (17:02):
Yeah.
So, uh, uh, there's so manythoughts right now.
So, one, I I love that youbrought up the word discipline.
That's one of the ones that Ithink is really, really
important for all marketing opsfolks in, in, in general.
Um, and I think.
D the, the reason people maybeshy away from using that word
discipline is because it maybesounds like you can't move
(17:24):
quickly, and I've totallydisagree.
I think if you have the rightkind of discipline and the
things set up in a way that arerelatively simple, right?
I think that there's a biggerdanger in making all these
systems complicated anddependent on each other and
things like that, that actuallyslow things down.
Not so much discipline of beingvery deliberate about how you go
to market, because to yourpoint, As soon as you lose that
(17:46):
discipline, you lose the, the,the trust and the quality of the
data that you're capturing aspart of it.
So what to me that leads to isnot better decisions, but the
same bad decisions, just faster.
you know, um, I think it's areally interesting point that
you bring up about, um, when toinvolve sales in the, sort of
(18:09):
the decision making processabout technology.
And I'm, I'm gonna, I wouldexpand it to when should we drop
something, right?
I think we've had guess on wherewe talk about, right?
If you've got a martex stack,you should be probably
evaluating.
Yeah, what are you still using?
What do you not need as, asoften as you are about adding
new, new things?
So I'm, I think that's a reallyinsightful point you made about
(18:31):
the, the, the, the perception ofthe other C-Suite members when
it comes to sales versusmarketing.
about whether or not something'sbeing effective.
And so I think for those of ourlisteners out there, right,
again, this is yet anotherreason, right?
If you don't understand thatrole, like, like really deeply
(18:53):
understanding how thoseprocesses work, especially in
the B2B world where, you know,complex sale, it's, it's, it's,
it's critical.
I, the one point I think I wouldmaybe, I would maybe disagree a
little bit with, I think withyour assessment.
That you should include themalways.
I don't think that's true.
If there's not gonna be an, afairly obvious impact downstream
(19:17):
to the sales team, and I'm, I'mtrying to, I mean, I can, I'm
sure I can come up with examplesand at the same time I could
probably argue against myself.
Like the example I was thinkingof.
Yeah, we, we, we had to do, uh,we have some stale contacts in
our database, so we ran'emthrough one of these email.
(19:37):
validation platforms where youget back sort of, you know,
valid email, not a valid email,and a bunch of stuff in the
middle.
And, um, the idea was like, weneed to clean out some stuff we
need to be smart about when weinclude or not include people in
distribution lists for ouremails.
But, uh, I didn't feel like Ineeded to include sales in that.
(20:00):
Where I'm gonna caveat it formyself is, but some of.
If we were gonna say, oh, that'sno longer a good email address,
we should delete it from bothour marketing system and
Salesforce.
Now we start to getting intolike, oh, what if that's still
like, what if the salespersonstill thinks it's a good person,
they just need to get the emailaddress correct.
Like then I think there is, thenI think it's important to
(20:22):
include them, but notnecessarily in the choice of.
Does that make
Shikha Pakhide (20:27):
sense?
Uh, agree.
Michael, I think yes,definitely, because herein
they're not directly impacted.
They're not gonna be the oneswho will be using.
So what I meant was that whereinit has got a direct impact on
them and wherein we really needtheir involvement in using that
so that, uh, say for example, anABM platform or whenever we are
talking about a sales outreachinsight, sales outreach kind of
(20:50):
platform lead routing.
Thank you.
Exactly.
And scheduling, you know, sothere, and I think is, is very
important, uh, because as I justsaid, that, um, if they're not,
uh, fully bought in, uh, thenlater on you will keep, keep on
hearing that hey, this is a, uh,waste of dollars.
This is waste of dollars, thisis waste of dollars.
So, so it'll always be echoed.
(21:11):
In the background, but yeah.
Uh, I mean, uh, it, uh, yourpoint totally makes sense
because that part, when we aretalking about those tools, which
are, uh, which a marketing orperson or a marketer will be
using in their own capacitywithout any, Uh, direct
contribution from any otherteam.
So then I, I don't think so.
There is, there is a teambecause they are only, uh, you
(21:34):
can say, um, uh, concerned aboutthe final outcome.
They only need the valid emailaddresses.
They only need the right datawhen you're talking about the
data acquisition as well.
Right.
They don't care for wherever youare bringing
Michael Hartmann (21:45):
it.
Right, right.
Um, I, I think, I think if I wasto boil this down, right, if,
if, if you're looking as amarketing ops or marketing tech
person and, and, or revenue or,uh, revenue ops and you're
considering technology additionsor subtractions, um, at least
give a consideration about,well, should we include sales or
(22:08):
sales ops or, or similar folksin that process earlier rather
than later?
And that makes sense to.
You agree?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
Got it.
Okay.
So, um, one of the, if I, if Iunderstood your career journey a
bit, you kind of went sort ofright into the deep end of kind
(22:31):
of leading marketing from soupto nuts or, or significant at
the portion of it, whichincluded becoming familiar with
the technology.
Supporting marketing, so, youknow, have, have, has that been
a continuing thing that has beenpart of your career?
And then if so, you know, howhave you as a marketing leader
(22:52):
kind of dealt with this?
Like, I think we've talked aboutit and I, this way I would
articulate is I, I think peoplehave expected the marketing tech
landscape to shrink throughconsolidations, but in fact it
continues to grow.
and my assertion, and I don'tknow if it's right or not, is
that a lot of that's becausethere's very specific point
solutions that are coming outthere that are bolted on to say
(23:15):
some core things and, um,leading to some challenges from
that standpoint.
But it's like just keeping upwith it.
And they all have, they, theyall the, the ones that are
successful tend to have reallygood salespeople who are good at
finding marketers or salespeoplewho, and convincing them that
they should consider it.
So how, how have you, how's thataffected you and your career?
Shikha Pakhide (23:36):
Yeah, I think, um, when you talk about, uh, the
mar space, um, at least in myjourney, and I, I, and I'm sure
it, uh, also is somethingsimilar with other marketers as
well, doesn't matter whetherthey are just still starting at
the middle of the career orwhether they are, um, at, at the
senior level position as well.
Um, in today's landscape, I, Ibelieve, uh, Michael, um, a
(24:00):
marketer needs to be atechnologist as well.
Because if they don'tunderstand, um, that how the
entire thing.
Is dependent on the technologybecause here we are always
talking about data, right?
We are always talking about howit's gonna be impacting all the
strategical decisions, how itactually will be driving the
(24:23):
budgets, forecast, pipeline, etcetera.
For that, you really need agood.
Confident technology stack andthen and there, the marketers
acumen actually comes into thepicture because it's not only
about the technology becausethat the C T O can do, but
therein you are backing that up.
(24:44):
With your entire marketingintelligence and then how you
are providing that, you know,the holistic approach, the
entire 360 degree approach view,so that at the end you are able
to confidently one project andstrategize.
And second is you can also givethe confidence to csuite that
this is a function which amarketer can comfortably hold
(25:08):
You don't.
You can say hundred percentdepend on the ct because CT has
got other things to, you cansay, take care of and other
things, you know, to, uh, youknow, uh, to worry about.
So I totally believe that thisis something, uh, to be honest,
like it has happened blessing indisguise because that was one of
the project which just.
Came to me.
And again, of course, you know,like an imposter syndrome.
(25:30):
I was not, uh, sure that whetherI'll be able to do justice or
not, that because I did notunderstand their language, they
were not able to understand mylanguage.
So we, we generally had thatkind of dissonance in the
beginning with the IT team.
But, uh, but thankfully, um, Ithink it really worked wonder
because then I was able tounderstand that a big gap.
in the big enterprise world, andsimilarly in a startup world as
(25:54):
well.
Sure.
Because what happens is, uh, inthe, in the enterprise world,
everybody's in a hurry or youcan say everybody is, um, uh, is
in that particular race toachieve the numbers, and they
have to do that.
And then, and again, of courseyou have the leverage of a good
budget over there.
So then, uh, uh, going attechnology and acquiring a
MarTech is generally becoming avery easy route.
(26:16):
But then when you sit andanalyze, Where exactly is the
gap?
How you can make sure that yourmarketing processes, your
operational processes, yourrelationship with sales can
improve with the help oftechnology.
I think that was thephilosophical bit, which I
really learned the hard waywhere I was working in this
(26:37):
particular, uh, uh, Marrying themarketing with the technology,
how the market came and becameas one of the, my pivotal role
as well.
And similarly I think in thestartup world as well.
Like wherein I'm working with astartup right now that, um,
Seeing the other side,technology is not always the
answer.
No, your, all your challengescannot be solved by the, by the
(27:00):
technology.
You have to sit and understandwhat is the root cause of the
problem is driving the pipeline.
Your issue, you are not gettingyour enough numbers or you're
not able to convert.
What is that challenge?
But definitely buying any otherMarTech is not gonna solve that
problem.
No, I, so these are two
Michael Hartmann (27:19):
different approaches.
no, I, I, I generally, eventhough I grew up in my career
doing IT type consulting,management consulting, and now,
you know, do a lot of stuff withtechnology and marketing space,
it's, I, I, I, for very, very,very long time thought if you.
Whether you think about this asa people process, technology
(27:40):
kind of approach to things or,or maybe something a little, a
little more elaborate.
I technology's always the lastpiece, right?
People come, first process andthen, and then technology if
necessary.
Right?
Or tech, because I thinkotherwise you, um, I've seen
this too many times where you,you choose a piece of technology
and you.
(28:01):
the organization and the peoplein the process to adapt to that
technology as opposed to, whichsometimes makes sense actually,
right?
So that if you assume that thereare best practices built into
some of these technologies, um,then it would make sense to sort
of rethink your process, um, andhow you go to market or
(28:21):
whatever.
Because I, the other side ofthis is like, I believe that
technology, unless you'reAmazon, right?
who's built out a huge customsort of capability that is, is
truly was part of their tech,their competitive advantage,
right?
I don't think that's the casefor most companies where I think
where their competitiveadvantage is if they've got some
(28:43):
sort of insight or specialty andtheir ability to move quickly
and adapt that, that to me ingeneral is a be is a better.
thing to have, you know, in yourtool belt if you will, then oh,
I've got this tech stack.
Um, cuz I think what happens is,is people go from one place to
another.
They go, this is the, my my sortof fallacy of best practices,
(29:04):
right?
Is they like, oh, I had thistech stack here at this place,
I'll just sort of go and do thesame thing over here and it and
it may or may not work.
Right.
If you're lucky, it will.
I I I would, you know, if we, ifpeople are honest, I suspect
the, the reality is if they didthat right, the majority of the
time, it would not work.
as well as it did, uh, at theprevious place.
(29:24):
Yeah.
Shikha Pakhide (29:24):
But I think, uh, you have actually picked up on a
very important point, Michael,that what has worked here.
It's, it's a hundred percenttrue that it's not gonna work
there because bits and pieces ofthat can work, but not in that
entire totality that, okay, thisis my entire martex space, which
worked in this particularscenario.
Because see, every organizationset up a.
(29:45):
Is different enterprise withmarkets s and b startup.
And then again, what is the kindof solution which they're
offering, whether thatparticular situation does they
demand that particular market ornot.
So that is very, very importantI think, which we marketers, uh,
sometimes miss or sometimes I, Iwould say that.
We actually, um, are buriedunder the pressure to deliver
(30:06):
the results wherein, um, uh, inthis entire game of bringing
everything onto the table in thepipeline for the salespeople, we
actually, um, uh, you can sayshy away and fear sometimes that
we have to take 10 stepsbackward and then really think
that does, is it bringing thevalue at the end of the year?
(30:27):
Will I be the one who will becutting that off, or will I be
the one who have to, you can sayno.
We have to completely, uh,forget about the solution we
have.
We really need something else.
So those are the things I thinkyou can actually, um, uh,
reframe or you can say you can,uh, uh, with a proper
evaluation, you can actually,um, uh, yeah, save the
Michael Hartmann (30:50):
trouble from that The, the, the phrase I've
heard, and I don't know where itwas, definitely not me who said
it, but I've heard it before, islike it's slowed down to speed
up.
You have to sort of take a stepback and slow down to speed up.
And so, okay, so one of thethings that I'm sure you've gone
through is, you know, as you'vekind of learned your way through
marketing, marketing, tech stuffas a marketer, is that then you
(31:13):
even, I think, alluded to itearlier when you talked about
integrations, right?
I think because there's so muchof this like point solution
stuff and or, or things that,you know, you maybe.
Two platforms, both have acapability but one's better than
the other.
So you sort of use the, the bestin class model, right?
Um, but then that forcesintegrations and the, all the
(31:35):
things that go on with that,including things like this just
happened really in my currentrole is that the, the CRM team
changed our state.
State code to state spelled out.
Right.
And so like, now that createsall kinds of other downstream
effects and we didn't know whatwas happening.
And um, so far it hasn't had anissue, but, but I, so, but it's
(31:59):
a small but important example oflike the importance of
integrations and consistencyacross these.
So how, like, how have you, haveyou got any lessons learned, uh,
from dealing with that kind ofstuff that you can share with
our listen.
Yes, definitely
Shikha Pakhide (32:14):
Michael.
Um, there are two situations onhow we can deal with that.
One is wherein you areinheriting the entire martex
space and you are not Evoinvolved interviewing the
evaluation and implementationtherein.
And of course you can't doanything, uh, you know that.
Okay.
You know, which were thesolutions which, which are able
to integrate with each other,so, In that situation wherein
(32:36):
you are inheriting everythingwork and see with the different,
um, you can say, uh, yoursupport teams over there, that
how you can make sure that allof them are integrating.
Because most of the time I haveseen that all the marketing
vendors, uh, they do have thaton their roadmap to integrate
most of the things because,because in the.
(32:57):
That is how they're gonna sell,right?
They will be selling theirparticular solution that, okay,
this is your one stop shopbecause it also integrates with
your CRM because it alsointegrates with your MAs, et
cetera, et cetera.
So that's one particular partthat go back to the producting
of that particular marketvendor, that whether they have
that in the roadmap or not, ifthat integration is.
(33:18):
Missing at that particular time.
Second is when you're dealing ina big space like an enterprise,
inheriting all these solution,work very closely with your it,
uh, and your data office teambecause they are the ones who
will be you.
You can see your enabler or yourspokesperson during those
decision making cycles and goingback to the vendors that, Hey,
we are not gonna be signing thecheck if we, these things are
(33:40):
not met because, This isimpacting our revenue.
This is our people are not ableto perform well, so make them
your spokesperson by workingclosely with them.
Again, you both should not be onthe other side.
You know, it shouldn't not belike an anti one, but a one team
approach over there.
And then the third is, See thatif the, the one doesn't work
(34:02):
wherein they don't have anyintegration at all.
So definitely you have to lookat the option, but again, when
you are evaluating the option,think about it that whether you
really need it or not, do athorough audit so that you're
not facing this problem again.
Now in the second space wherein,um, you are not inheriting, but
you are the one who are bringingeverything.
(34:22):
Right?
So my biggest learning andlesson, and you can say, uh,
share, which I would like toshare with the listeners is
that.
Think thoroughly and do theevaluation very in a, in a very
deep and intensive manner.
Because therein, uh, if you dothat in the beginning itself,
it's gonna save you all thetrouble, um, uh, at a later
(34:42):
stage One is definitely, um,when they're saying about the
integration, does it holdprofit?
In the principle or not, becausewhat exactly they do mean by
integration is just not likethat.
Okay.
Plug and play.
They're just gonna beintegrated.
No.
When they say integration, whatexactly does it mean?
The end objective.
When you are, you need to designyour workflows.
(35:03):
You need the entire flow tohappen.
You need the automation to work.
You need the assignment to work.
Is it able to achieve yourobjective?
Directly proportional to theintegrations.
That's my biggest lesson.
Michael Hartmann (35:16):
Yeah, no, I, um, I, I think that you, that,
that point about the, you, youcan't, I, I hate to say you
can't just trust those.
vendors.
I, I don't think that anybody'sintentionally, I'm sure there
are some people whointentionally, but generally
speaking right, that no one'sintentionally misleading.
But I think, um, it's really,you hit a good point cuz I've
(35:38):
been burned by this before whereyou didn't really dig in and
understand when they say thiscan integrate with that.
Right.
What does that actually mean?
Right.
Is it.
Um, yeah.
Is it all objects?
Is it custom objects?
Is it, is it real time?
Is it, what's a day like?
All those things matter and, andthey may matter more or less for
(35:59):
your particular situation, but Ithink that's true.
The, the one thing I would, Ithink I would add to your first
scenario where you'reinheriting, and this has been my
world a couple of times, is um,don't go in and make snap
judgements about what shouldchange.
Because, uh, what I've, whatI've learned is I've had to be
(36:21):
really, I've had to fight myurge to wanna move quickly.
When I see something, it goes,oh, that just doesn't look
right.
Because in this case, especiallyin enterprise kind of world,
right?
There was, there was, there wasstuff that was set up that maybe
wasn't.
well documented, um, or wasn'tdocumented at all.
And there's certain things that,um, may be happening that you're
(36:46):
not even aware of untilsomething else comes up and it
breaks.
Right.
And, which has saved me before.
So I've like, um, a couple oftimes where I've like, oh, I, I
come in, I like, I seesomething, I'm like, this
doesn't seem right.
I want, like, let's go.
I think we should go fix it.
But like, but let's wait.
And that's hard.
Um, especially.
If maybe it feels like thingsare not working well.
(37:10):
Right.
There's sand in the gear, so tospeak.
So, um, those are all goodpoints.
I, that's really good.
So, um, what, so the other partthat you touched on with that
had to do with, uh, Thesesystems integrations also affect
data and quality in the, theconfidence that leaders have in
it.
How, like how have you addressedthat part as well?
(37:34):
Um,
Shikha Pakhide (37:35):
uh, again, uh, I would like to present two
different scenarios here.
Uh, Michael Barnes, when I wasin the enterprise space and when
I was, uh, You know, in astartup phase.
So in the enterprise, uh, space,again, you have a leverage to
where an entire data team isthere or there are people who
are actually managing the entiredata office.
So how I worked when I wasworking in enterprise spaces, so
(37:56):
again, working closely withthem, but then again, uh,
working closely with them, you,you have to be very clear
because see, they're the datapeople.
They don't understand theirentire story.
You have to give them the facts.
What exactly is not working?
Where is the data leakage?
And then, um, uh, uh, yeah, andthen where exactly is the
(38:18):
leakage?
And then which are the datapoints, which they, you want
them to fix it up?
Either they have to fix it up orthe market person has to fix it
up.
Or at the marketing side, youhave to, you can say, redefine
that.
So that's how I know, uh, howyou can solve the data issues.
But when we are also talkingwith the startup world, there
in, um, uh, again, uh, you cansay there is a leverage because
(38:41):
you are just starting up.
You have the entire leverage toset up the processes.
Exactly the way you would liketo want.
And then, which is not leadingto all the data challenges at a
later stage.
So do it right the first timeitself.
So you'll have to, you know,again, reinvent the way.
So,
Michael Hartmann (38:57):
yeah.
Yeah.
So I think, um, couple things.
I like that, that approach therewhere you're talking about, uh,
and maybe I'm reading more intoit, but are you saying sort of
maybe.
Smaller in terms of reporting.
Like this is something we'vetalked about on on previous
episodes too, is like the, thebest time to do reporting is
now.
Right?
Don't wait till your data'sperfect.
(39:18):
Don't wait till your systems areperfect, but also don't try to
solve, don't, don't come outright outta the gates.
Try, try to create some massivedashboard, right?
Do one piece, get it right, moveon to the next piece.
So I think is a, is a solidapproach.
D has that worked for youbefore?
Is, is that how you've done itor is it, have you done
something a little more, alittle different?
Shikha Pakhide (39:38):
No, exactly.
That's what we did because ourmanagement, uh, when I was in
the enterprise phase, they werelike really, really worried and
they were really irritated that,uh, they were not able to see
one particular report, which isa right report.
They, of course, they don't havetime to look at the hundred
reports, so they just needed onereal time report and they all,
what they all cared was how manyleads.
(39:59):
what is the money we are pumpingin and what is the tactic, which
is bringing the, you know, themaximum amount of results.
That's what they care caredabout, you know?
Yeah.
As you said that we'd, we'd haveto create this entire.
Uh, beautiful or complicated orintricate dashboards.
So
Michael Hartmann (40:14):
Le lesson there is don't assume what those
executives want to see.
Right.
Um, and don't just the other,the other part, you, you used
the word stor story, and I, thisis another one that I've, uh,
I've become more and moreconvinced is, is actually
affecting not just marketingtech and marketing ops, but also
marketing in general, is that Ithink.
Um, marketers in general do apretty good, poor job of
(40:38):
storytelling with the data thatthey have.
Right?
Which is, which is a weird thingto say because you think
marketers would be the ones whocould do the storytelling, but.
it's complicated and it's notas, um, binary as sales.
Right.
So we've talked about them forYeah.
So have you, have you had to dothat before, right?
Not just the numbers, but thestory, the numbers are telling.
(40:59):
Have you, have you gone throughthat kind of process?
Uh,
Shikha Pakhide (41:02):
yes.
Uh, it was, uh, prettyinteresting that, uh, uh, it, it
was actually right onto my face.
Um, so, uh, when I was, uh,sharing the reports with my C P
O and my VP of sales, so he islike, okay, I get the.
What exactly it's telling me?
What are the kind of decisionsyou want me to make out of it or
what are the decisions you wouldlike to make when you are seeing
(41:24):
the data?
Yeah.
Trust me, I was dumb I was
Michael Hartmann (41:26):
dumbed.
Is this good or bad?
Like, I don't know.
Right.
No reference.
I have no reference point.
Shikha Pakhide (41:32):
Exactly.
So I was like, okay, fine.
No problem.
You, you did all this, uh, youare able to extract the data,
you are able to present thedata, but what next?
So exactly.
I, I think that's very, veryimportant, Michael.
Even when we are.
Uh, uh, we are using that reportonly for our own purpose as a
solo purpose.
Not even sharing that with themanagement.
(41:53):
We have to see and understandthat what exactly I'm trying to
derive from that particularreport.
Michael Hartmann (41:58):
What next?
Well, and I, the, I think themaybe corollary to that that
we've talked about too before isif you are asked to generate a
report for something, beforejust going off and generating
the report.
The a a good question ask iswhy, like, why, like what are
you, try, what are you trying tolearn from that?
Because maybe that's not theright report, right.
(42:20):
That you asked for, you know?
So I think, I think there's somesome good stuff there.
Well, Sheika, this has, this hasbeen a great conversation and I
think we probably, we probablydidn't even get to some of the
stuff we had hoped to, but.
Uh, kind of up against time.
I know your day is just gettinggoing there, so, and, and ours
is winding down here, but thankyou so much for joining us.
(42:42):
If folks want to kind of connectwith you or learn more about
what you're up to or, or followyou or whatever, what's the best
way for them to do that?
Shikha Pakhide (42:51):
Yeah.
Uh, send me a connection requeston LinkedIn.
I'd be more than happy to, uh,connect with you or definitely,
you know, uh, through the Slackcommunity.
I'm, I'm
Michael Hartmann (43:00):
all.
All right.
Yeah, so on the marketingops.com, slap slack, slap.
Wow.
I'm not sure where that camefrom.
Um, it's been a day.
Um, well, so that's great.
So we will definitely, once thisgoes out, we'll, we'll be
sharing your information aswell.
So thank you again for gettingup early there.
I know that was, is tough,especially given, um, yeah, I
(43:22):
think you have young kids too,so we appreciate that.
And so thank you to all ourlisteners.
Um, Thanks to Mike and Naomi,even though they're not here,
they're here in spirit.
And, uh, appreciate all thatthey do to help us keep this
going.
If you have suggestions forother guests or topics, um, we
are kinda thinking about thingsa little bit differently in
(43:42):
2023, but, um, definitely stillopen to ideas for people and
topics to include in ourepisodes.
And with that, I think thank youagain for your, your support.
And that's a wrap.
Bye.
Yep.
Shikha Pakhide (43:56):
Bye-bye.
And yeah, I think, uh, thank youMichael.
I I really love the entireconversation.
Um, thank you for having metoday,
Michael Hartmann (44:04):
All right, bye everyone.
Hello, and welcome to another episode of
OpsCast, brought to you bymarketing ops.com, powered by
the MO Pros.
I am your host, MichaelHartmann.
Joined today by no otherco-hosts, Naomi and Mike could
not make it, and there's areason why.
So our guest today is fromIndia.
So challenges with scheduling.
Uh, as you'll, as we get going,you'll find out that we
(00:24):
actually, this is our thirdattempt at doing this.
So, thankfully, uh, our guestShikha Pakhide I still, you
know, I practiced it over andover.
I think I still got it.
anyway, uh, is joining us.
It is evening here in the USand, uh, more early morning in,
in India for her.
So thank you for joining us.
(00:45):
And I guess she is here todiscuss the impacts of ever
growing Mar MarTech landscape.
And I think her perspective, uh,being in India is gonna be
helpful.
She is currently the globalmarketing director of zpa AI at
B2B SaaS platform to improve thehiring process.
So prior to joining, joiningzpa, She held several general
(01:05):
marketing, product managementand leadership roles.
She is passionate aboutgo-to-market strategy, brand
awareness, account basedmarketing, account based
experience, and demand.
Gen Sheika has been recognizedas the most innovative MarTech
leader by the World MarketingCon Congress.
She is an active member of CMOAlliance Community and the CMO
Council.
So Sheika, thank you for joiningus and my apologies.
(01:26):
Messing up your name.
Shikha Pakhide (01:29):
No worries, Michael.
Uh, thanks a lot, uh, for havingme, uh, on today's shows.
Uh, sure.
You know, I, I'm, I'm reallyexcited, uh, to share my journey
and, uh, my
Michael Hartmann (01:38):
learnings.
Oh, great.
No, I think I, I think ouraudience is gonna be, um, Well,
I love that we are, we havegotten a number of people over
the course of the last year orso who are outside of the us.
I mean, our, our audience is in,most of our guests are, are
definitely US, north America, Iguess I should say North
America, cuz it's Naomi who's.
Our co-host is in Canada, butum, yeah, it, it's, I think it's
(02:03):
one of the things that I, I'm,I'm really excited about is that
we've had guests from Europe,from India, from Australia, um,
yeah, we just need a few otherkind of locales and I think
we'll have more and more of the,the globe covered.
So why don't we, so youmentioned your journey, your
career journey.
So why don't we start there?
Why don't you share with ourlisteners your experience as a
marketer and leader, um, and.
(02:26):
really as part of this, one ofthe things I like to hear about,
are there key people orinflection points in your career
that you think were important inkind of getting you to where you
are today?
Shikha Pakhide (02:37):
Yeah, sure, Michael.
I think, um, like any other, uh,you can say budding marketing,
uh, professional, uh, so, uh, myinitial years of journey was,
uh, you could say a, a littlesimilar wherein I was trying to
go that where my interest areaslies.
So, uh, you could say,Initially, for the, at least for
the five to six years, I wasdoing a lot of sales and
(02:57):
business development, a lot oftraveling, um, trying my hands
with, uh, all the new thingsabout marketing.
To be honest, I wasunconsciously and
subconsciously, subconsciouslydoing marketing.
But I, to be honest, I didn'trealize that, okay, I'm, I'm
actually doing marketing.
Uh, but then after that, youknow, uh, I took a pause and,
uh, and I wanted to understandmyself that, okay, uh, now.
(03:19):
A lot of experimentation hashappened.
So what next?
You know, where I would like to,uh, l uh, spend most part of my
journey, uh, to understand that,okay, this is, this is where I
belong, right?
So that's how, uh, my journeybegan.
Um, uh, in totally you can say,Core marketing.
And then, um, uh, when I sayco-marketing, so to be honest, I
(03:41):
learn everything from A to Z ofmarketing when I started working
with Ventil Systems, uh, whichis a software solution provider
for infrastructure industry.
So again, a very niche industry,uh, when we talk about
infrastructure, uh, and, uh,when, uh, we are talking about,
uh, The buyer persona, whom wewere serving over there, because
it was all about, uh,architects, it was all about
(04:02):
engineers.
It was all about owneroperators.
So, so that was very interestingbecause again, that was very new
for me.
And as you know, that the, uh,marketing team was always short
stocked.
We, we always have
Michael Hartmann (04:13):
zero.
I don't, I have no idea whatyou're talking about,
Shikha Pakhide (04:17):
We always have, uh, zero to no budget almost.
And, uh, so of course then I, Iwas, you know, along with my
manager and uh, I was handlingSouth Asia and, uh, CPAC region,
Southeast Asia, Australia andNew Zealand region.
So there, you know, again, youknow, understood that how a
campaign need to be built.
You know, when we talk aboutfrom bottom.
(04:37):
Top, you know, so first Iunderstood that, but then later
on it the, you can say thestrategy funnel flipped.
So then I started understanding,okay, you know, this is the
business school, this is howmarketing needs to fit in.
And then you know how we aretalking about the campaigns, et
cetera.
So again, uh, there as well, uh,learn everything about, um,
(04:59):
building up the campaign pages,working along with, uh, sales
leadership, which is again, avery, I think, fundamental when
you talk about the alignment.
Uh, and then
Michael Hartmann (05:08):
again, so, uh, so I, you, you brought it up a
second time, so I'm, I waswaiting to interrupt or ask you
a follow up, but now I, I feellike I want to interrupt here a
little bit.
So, um, this is unscripted, so.
Um, I'm really curious about,because you brought up sales and
you said you, you sold for awhile and traveled.
And so, uh, I also, for a shortperiod of my time, my career was
(05:29):
in sales and it, um, it wasreally, really hard.
Way harder than I thought it waswhen I, when I dis, I raised my
hand to, to take a spot.
So, and, and I think it.
it, it really changed how Ithought about marketing when I
got into marketing more as acore thing.
So I'm curious, do, like, do youthink it would be valuable for
(05:50):
people who are in marketing andmarketing ops to better
understand what it's like to bein the shoes of a salesperson
right out there knocking ondoors, pick up the phone to
call, getting hung up on, right.
All those kinds of things.
I, I'm just like, what is yourperspective and I'm, I'm.
I, I'm gonna guess that theexperience is fairly similar
(06:11):
globally, but, um, I, I know I,I had times where I was hung up
on and called names and thingslike that.
I suspect it was probably likethat.
It is not an easy task.
So for all you people out therewho are in marketing and
marketing ops and, you know, naysaying sales, I'm not saying
there aren't people who deservethat, but there are like, it is
not the easy job that you mightthink it.
(06:34):
Uh,
Shikha Pakhide (06:35):
absolutely Michael.
It's, it's not at all an easyjob, and I have, uh, you can say
huge respect for them, uh,because, uh, it, it's hard.
It's very hard, uh, because herein, uh, they are, uh, most of
the time they are dealing com,uh, with the sales of a
productor service where theydon't have.
you can say most of the backing,or most of you can say, lack of
(06:57):
the proper material back.
That's why I think, um, themisalignment comes into the
picture because sales are outthere into the market.
You know, they, they're actuallyspeaking to a lot of accounts.
They're speaking to theprospects, so they really know
the.
Pulse that what exactly they'rewanting.
But when they bring back thatrequirement to the teams,
whether it's the product team orwhether it's to the marketing
team, I think that empathy, thatthing needs to come out that,
(07:21):
hey, you know, when they'resaying something, when they're
asking for something, so let'srespect that, uh, because they
have got the, you can saythey're, they're out there in
the market.
They know that, uh, what thingwill resonate with them, what
kind of messaging will resonatewith them.
But here, and I think ifmarketing and product, you know
what, what I also used to.
Uh, no, before I, I'm guilty ofdoing that.
So wherein when you are workingin a silos and you say that, no,
(07:43):
you know, this does, thisdoesn't suit well, this doesn't
sound well.
We have to craft that message inthat particular way.
That is not something which youcan say gives a tick.
To the prospect to think aboutyour product or about your
service.
Mm-hmm.
So, uh, marketing a product, youknow, is not only about
marketers or, uh, you know aboutthat, but then even for the
(08:06):
product marketing team as well,or people who are dealing in the
industry, marketing as well,they all need to work together.
The need to, you can say, comeout of their own box and
understand that let's putourselves in their shoes because
that's how they are pitching it.
And to be honest, over the, uh,past, uh, so many years,
Michael, I have realized thatevery marketer, if they don't
(08:28):
know how to pitch their product,if they have not picked the,
picked up the phone and did apitch like an s t r or went and
then sat in those accountdiscussions, I don't think so.
They deserve to be in themarketing.
That time, we don't know what isthe thing, how they need to
design, what is the kind ofstrategy and execution plan they
need to do that.
So for me, understanding thispivotal role, how sales is made
(08:54):
when you are working in anyorganization, yes.
Any product service, I thinkit's so, so
Michael Hartmann (08:58):
important.
Well, and I, I think you touchedon something that, um, I think
it's particularly.
Bad in B2B or for B2B companiesis just the language that they
use on their websites.
You know, I, I cannot, I mean,it's, it's, it, it, it probably
stands out when I run across aB2B company's website where I
(09:20):
read their homepage and it'svery clear, oh, this is what you
do, right?
This is what you sell.
Um, as often as not, I wouldsay, That's not the case, right?
There's a lot of words,beautiful pictures or whatever,
but it's.
what's, what is it you do rightin plain language.
And I think there's, there'ssomething about that that's
(09:41):
missing.
And I, and I think that's, Ithink so maybe where you and I
both like having done that.
Like when you're out theretalking to customers right?
And you're, you, you have tofigure out the language to use
with them that may or may notmatch what.
Product marketing or themarketing, you know, content
team would like it to be.
Um, so there's this, I thinkthere's a balancing act, right?
(10:02):
So, uh, particularly a challengeprobably for companies where
they're, it is, they're, they'rekind of breaking new ground,
right?
A new market, a new kind ofproduct.
So, all right, so I, sorry Itotally derailed your story
about your career, but I wasThat's okay.
Fascinated.
I'm always look like it catchesmy ear.
Um, all the time when I hearabout people who are in
(10:23):
marketing who've actually beenin sales shoes.
Cause I think their perspectiveon, uh, uh, marketing is
different in a lot of cases.
Um, and I generally would say ina better way.
In a good way.
So do you, was there more toyour story?
Let's, let's, so let's keep ongoing there if you want, and, or
(10:44):
we can switch to switch gears.
Uh, no,
Shikha Pakhide (10:47):
no, I'm totally okay.
As I said that, uh, over thepast, uh, you can see when I
talk about the experience andthen, uh, uh, the points which
were like, uh, enlightening forme.
One was definitely the alignmentpiece because, uh, there was a
particular project when I wasworking at Bentley and then I
had to work very closely withsales and producting, and then
(11:08):
make sure that we all aretalking the same language and I
have to.
Give them the trust that I'myour enabler.
You know, I'm not on the otherside.
We all on one side, there's no,there are no two sides when you
are working in one organization.
So that was one of the pivotalpoint.
And second point was, uh,wherein I worked closely with my
IT team.
(11:29):
On all the collaboration of thetools.
Uh, so those are, you can saytwo highs, uh, wherein, uh, lot
of, um, uh, revolutions about,uh, the marketing concepts came
into the Bing.
And then, okay, there is a totaldifference between what goes in
the theory and what is there inthe prac, prac, practicality.
Michael Hartmann (11:49):
Oh yeah, definitely.
I mean, it's, it's, uh, there'sa, one of my favorite business
books is one called Execution,the Discipline of the Subtitles,
the, the Discipline of GettingThings Done.
And it was co-authored by anacademic and a, and a seasoned
business professional.
And I thought it had a goodbalance.
Uh, so the academic is romsheron.
(12:10):
And the, the, the businesspractitioners, Larry Bossy and
the, the combination of thosetwo was really, I think I've not
run across another book that wasnot either just someone owns
someone's own story about theirbusiness success or an academic
one where, where it combinedthose two.
So I think that.
that point of is, is well taken.
(12:31):
Um, so you, you said, youmentioned it that you worked
with at that spot is, is thatwhen you started getting
exposure to marketing technologyplatforms as well and that the
landscape there, cause I knowthat was one of the things that
you, we talked about, um, kindof prepar preparing for this is,
and I think you used the termlike the, the, um, the marktech
space is coming up and I don'tknow, I can't remember if, if,
(12:54):
um, if you're talking about the,the sort of the explosion.
Marketing technology platformsand tools?
Uh, uh, in general, or if youwere talking about in, in India,
in, in that area of the world inparticular.
Yeah,
Shikha Pakhide (13:08):
Michael, I think, um, when I was, uh, when
I was involved in thatparticular project, because one
of the main part was, which Ithink every management suffers,
is that they do have a lot oftools, but they don't talk to
each other.
That's such a pain point becauseyou are investing so much, but
again, you have to take.
The help of so many businessanalysts or marketing operation
(13:30):
team members to make sense outof all the data, which is coming
from all the different sources.
So that was one of the pointsyou can say the key objective of
this particular project, whereinI have to make sure.
The systems which we have, thetools which we have specifically
in marketing, in sales, and inwith the inside sales team, how
(13:52):
we have to make sure that theyare talking to each other,
they're integrating well, andthe data is coming out right
because.
How we define as a lead in oneparticular system, that's
exactly not equal to anothertool, right?
Michael Hartmann (14:07):
So for, for our, listen, for our listeners,
I've got this, I've got thissilly grin on my face because
like, I totally agree with this.
Like the word lead it, the wordcustomer, the word campaign,
right?
They're all ones that have.
different general meetings todifferent people as well as if
you get into systems and theyhave specific meetings in those
cases too, and they're alwaysthe same.
Uh, anyway, sorry to interrupt.
Shikha Pakhide (14:30):
No, no, that's okay.
Because I think that's one ofour, uh, holy grail kind of
stuff, right?
Wherein we are always trying toachieve.
But yeah, we need tools, butyes, we also need them to be
integrated.
Well, and, and then, uh, Ithink, uh, one of the point
which, um, marketers are theperson who's involved.
Valuation and implementation ofthe particular tool.
(14:50):
The myth that is that wheneverany new technology is being
introduced in any team or in anyorganization, it takes time.
It takes time to be absorbed.
It takes time to be implemented.
It takes time to be adapted inprinciple.
and in the practical way as wellbecause, okay, say for example
(15:11):
we are taking any, um, outreachtool or we are talking about any
ABM platform, but then in theorythey're gonna do wonders.
But then unless and until thereis a proper discipline in using
that, making sure that you areaware about all the features,
only then you'll be able toextract the real R roi.
It's not about that, okay, wepaid the dollar amount, we did
(15:33):
the implementation, and now weare gonna be sitting and then,
hey, digital, you log.
Did you check in?
Did you go through the reports?
But then later on you, youmissed that point that they do
not understand that why theyshould be using that.
The why is very important,Michael, because in any of the
market tool, because again, youknow, we, we all know that sales
are so hard pressed of time,whether it's sales or whether
(15:55):
it's inside sales team, what isthey need to achieve their
numbers and then till today theyare the ones who have, you can
say, uh, Very, you can say avery prominent role in the
decision making because they arethe one who is bringing the
business, right?
So whatever they're gonna besaying that this tool doesn't
work, this tool is gonna take alot of my time.
(16:17):
No, this is a total base.
C-suite is gonna listen to them.
They're not gonna listen to the,you can say the CMO that, Hey,
you know what, uh, we got that.
And then we, we know that and weanticipate it's gonna do three x
or 10 x wonders to our dollarpipeline.
Uh, CSU is not gonna listen tothe CMO there.
He's gonna listen to the.
Person who is driving thebusiness.
(16:40):
And as a second part is, uh,when we are talking about this
all in, in, you know, thing, theinitial evaluation, they have to
be involved.
They, they really have to be ininvolved.
If they're not there, I thinkit's always good to miss.
Uh, implementing or buying thatparticular technology that's,
that's, you know, my experienceand my belief.
Michael Hartmann (17:02):
Yeah.
So, uh, uh, there's so manythoughts right now.
So, one, I I love that youbrought up the word discipline.
That's one of the ones that Ithink is really, really
important for all marketing opsfolks in, in, in general.
Um, and I think.
D the, the reason people maybeshy away from using that word
discipline is because it maybesounds like you can't move
(17:24):
quickly, and I've totallydisagree.
I think if you have the rightkind of discipline and the
things set up in a way that arerelatively simple, right?
I think that there's a biggerdanger in making all these
systems complicated anddependent on each other and
things like that, that actuallyslow things down.
Not so much discipline of beingvery deliberate about how you go
to market, because to yourpoint, As soon as you lose that
(17:46):
discipline, you lose the, the,the trust and the quality of the
data that you're capturing aspart of it.
So what to me that leads to isnot better decisions, but the
same bad decisions, just faster.
you know, um, I think it's areally interesting point that
you bring up about, um, when toinvolve sales in the, sort of
(18:09):
the decision making processabout technology.
And I'm, I'm gonna, I wouldexpand it to when should we drop
something, right?
I think we've had guess on wherewe talk about, right?
If you've got a martex stack,you should be probably
evaluating.
Yeah, what are you still using?
What do you not need as, asoften as you are about adding
new, new things?
So I'm, I think that's a reallyinsightful point you made about
(18:31):
the, the, the, the perception ofthe other C-Suite members when
it comes to sales versusmarketing.
about whether or not something'sbeing effective.
And so I think for those of ourlisteners out there, right,
again, this is yet anotherreason, right?
If you don't understand thatrole, like, like really deeply
(18:53):
understanding how thoseprocesses work, especially in
the B2B world where, you know,complex sale, it's, it's, it's,
it's critical.
I, the one point I think I wouldmaybe, I would maybe disagree a
little bit with, I think withyour assessment.
That you should include themalways.
I don't think that's true.
If there's not gonna be an, afairly obvious impact downstream
(19:17):
to the sales team, and I'm, I'mtrying to, I mean, I can, I'm
sure I can come up with examplesand at the same time I could
probably argue against myself.
Like the example I was thinkingof.
Yeah, we, we, we had to do, uh,we have some stale contacts in
our database, so we ran'emthrough one of these email.
(19:37):
validation platforms where youget back sort of, you know,
valid email, not a valid email,and a bunch of stuff in the
middle.
And, um, the idea was like, weneed to clean out some stuff we
need to be smart about when weinclude or not include people in
distribution lists for ouremails.
But, uh, I didn't feel like Ineeded to include sales in that.
(20:00):
Where I'm gonna caveat it formyself is, but some of.
If we were gonna say, oh, that'sno longer a good email address,
we should delete it from bothour marketing system and
Salesforce.
Now we start to getting intolike, oh, what if that's still
like, what if the salespersonstill thinks it's a good person,
they just need to get the emailaddress correct.
Like then I think there is, thenI think it's important to
(20:22):
include them, but notnecessarily in the choice of.
Does that make
Shikha Pakhide (20:27):
sense?
Uh, agree.
Michael, I think yes,definitely, because herein
they're not directly impacted.
They're not gonna be the oneswho will be using.
So what I meant was that whereinit has got a direct impact on
them and wherein we really needtheir involvement in using that
so that, uh, say for example, anABM platform or whenever we are
talking about a sales outreachinsight, sales outreach kind of
(20:50):
platform lead routing.
Thank you.
Exactly.
And scheduling, you know, sothere, and I think is, is very
important, uh, because as I justsaid, that, um, if they're not,
uh, fully bought in, uh, thenlater on you will keep, keep on
hearing that hey, this is a, uh,waste of dollars.
This is waste of dollars, thisis waste of dollars.
So, so it'll always be echoed.
(21:11):
In the background, but yeah.
Uh, I mean, uh, it, uh, yourpoint totally makes sense
because that part, when we aretalking about those tools, which
are, uh, which a marketing orperson or a marketer will be
using in their own capacitywithout any, Uh, direct
contribution from any otherteam.
So then I, I don't think so.
There is, there is a teambecause they are only, uh, you
(21:34):
can say, um, uh, concerned aboutthe final outcome.
They only need the valid emailaddresses.
They only need the right datawhen you're talking about the
data acquisition as well.
Right.
They don't care for wherever youare bringing
Michael Hartmann (21:45):
it.
Right, right.
Um, I, I think, I think if I wasto boil this down, right, if,
if, if you're looking as amarketing ops or marketing tech
person and, and, or revenue or,uh, revenue ops and you're
considering technology additionsor subtractions, um, at least
give a consideration about,well, should we include sales or
(22:08):
sales ops or, or similar folksin that process earlier rather
than later?
And that makes sense to.
You agree?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
Got it.
Okay.
So, um, one of the, if I, if Iunderstood your career journey a
bit, you kind of went sort ofright into the deep end of kind
(22:31):
of leading marketing from soupto nuts or, or significant at
the portion of it, whichincluded becoming familiar with
the technology.
Supporting marketing, so, youknow, have, have, has that been
a continuing thing that has beenpart of your career?
And then if so, you know, howhave you as a marketing leader
(22:52):
kind of dealt with this?
Like, I think we've talked aboutit and I, this way I would
articulate is I, I think peoplehave expected the marketing tech
landscape to shrink throughconsolidations, but in fact it
continues to grow.
and my assertion, and I don'tknow if it's right or not, is
that a lot of that's becausethere's very specific point
solutions that are coming outthere that are bolted on to say
(23:15):
some core things and, um,leading to some challenges from
that standpoint.
But it's like just keeping upwith it.
And they all have, they, theyall the, the ones that are
successful tend to have reallygood salespeople who are good at
finding marketers or salespeoplewho, and convincing them that
they should consider it.
So how, how have you, how's thataffected you and your career?
Shikha Pakhide (23:36):
Yeah, I think, um, when you talk about, uh, the
mar space, um, at least in myjourney, and I, I, and I'm sure
it, uh, also is somethingsimilar with other marketers as
well, doesn't matter whetherthey are just still starting at
the middle of the career orwhether they are, um, at, at the
senior level position as well.
Um, in today's landscape, I, Ibelieve, uh, Michael, um, a
(24:00):
marketer needs to be atechnologist as well.
Because if they don'tunderstand, um, that how the
entire thing.
Is dependent on the technologybecause here we are always
talking about data, right?
We are always talking about howit's gonna be impacting all the
strategical decisions, how itactually will be driving the
(24:23):
budgets, forecast, pipeline, etcetera.
For that, you really need agood.
Confident technology stack andthen and there, the marketers
acumen actually comes into thepicture because it's not only
about the technology becausethat the C T O can do, but
therein you are backing that up.
(24:44):
With your entire marketingintelligence and then how you
are providing that, you know,the holistic approach, the
entire 360 degree approach view,so that at the end you are able
to confidently one project andstrategize.
And second is you can also givethe confidence to csuite that
this is a function which amarketer can comfortably hold
(25:08):
You don't.
You can say hundred percentdepend on the ct because CT has
got other things to, you cansay, take care of and other
things, you know, to, uh, youknow, uh, to worry about.
So I totally believe that thisis something, uh, to be honest,
like it has happened blessing indisguise because that was one of
the project which just.
Came to me.
And again, of course, you know,like an imposter syndrome.
(25:30):
I was not, uh, sure that whetherI'll be able to do justice or
not, that because I did notunderstand their language, they
were not able to understand mylanguage.
So we, we generally had thatkind of dissonance in the
beginning with the IT team.
But, uh, but thankfully, um, Ithink it really worked wonder
because then I was able tounderstand that a big gap.
in the big enterprise world, andsimilarly in a startup world as
(25:54):
well.
Sure.
Because what happens is, uh, inthe, in the enterprise world,
everybody's in a hurry or youcan say everybody is, um, uh, is
in that particular race toachieve the numbers, and they
have to do that.
And then, and again, of courseyou have the leverage of a good
budget over there.
So then, uh, uh, going attechnology and acquiring a
MarTech is generally becoming avery easy route.
(26:16):
But then when you sit andanalyze, Where exactly is the
gap?
How you can make sure that yourmarketing processes, your
operational processes, yourrelationship with sales can
improve with the help oftechnology.
I think that was thephilosophical bit, which I
really learned the hard waywhere I was working in this
(26:37):
particular, uh, uh, Marrying themarketing with the technology,
how the market came and becameas one of the, my pivotal role
as well.
And similarly I think in thestartup world as well.
Like wherein I'm working with astartup right now that, um,
Seeing the other side,technology is not always the
answer.
No, your, all your challengescannot be solved by the, by the
(27:00):
technology.
You have to sit and understandwhat is the root cause of the
problem is driving the pipeline.
Your issue, you are not gettingyour enough numbers or you're
not able to convert.
What is that challenge?
But definitely buying any otherMarTech is not gonna solve that
problem.
No, I, so these are two
Michael Hartmann (27:19):
different approaches.
no, I, I, I generally, eventhough I grew up in my career
doing IT type consulting,management consulting, and now,
you know, do a lot of stuff withtechnology and marketing space,
it's, I, I, I, for very, very,very long time thought if you.
Whether you think about this asa people process, technology
(27:40):
kind of approach to things or,or maybe something a little, a
little more elaborate.
I technology's always the lastpiece, right?
People come, first process andthen, and then technology if
necessary.
Right?
Or tech, because I thinkotherwise you, um, I've seen
this too many times where you,you choose a piece of technology
and you.
(28:01):
the organization and the peoplein the process to adapt to that
technology as opposed to, whichsometimes makes sense actually,
right?
So that if you assume that thereare best practices built into
some of these technologies, um,then it would make sense to sort
of rethink your process, um, andhow you go to market or
(28:21):
whatever.
Because I, the other side ofthis is like, I believe that
technology, unless you'reAmazon, right?
who's built out a huge customsort of capability that is, is
truly was part of their tech,their competitive advantage,
right?
I don't think that's the casefor most companies where I think
where their competitiveadvantage is if they've got some
(28:43):
sort of insight or specialty andtheir ability to move quickly
and adapt that, that to me ingeneral is a be is a better.
thing to have, you know, in yourtool belt if you will, then oh,
I've got this tech stack.
Um, cuz I think what happens is,is people go from one place to
another.
They go, this is the, my my sortof fallacy of best practices,
(29:04):
right?
Is they like, oh, I had thistech stack here at this place,
I'll just sort of go and do thesame thing over here and it and
it may or may not work.
Right.
If you're lucky, it will.
I I I would, you know, if we, ifpeople are honest, I suspect
the, the reality is if they didthat right, the majority of the
time, it would not work.
as well as it did, uh, at theprevious place.
(29:24):
Yeah.
Shikha Pakhide (29:24):
But I think, uh, you have actually picked up on a
very important point, Michael,that what has worked here.
It's, it's a hundred percenttrue that it's not gonna work
there because bits and pieces ofthat can work, but not in that
entire totality that, okay, thisis my entire martex space, which
worked in this particularscenario.
Because see, every organizationset up a.
(29:45):
Is different enterprise withmarkets s and b startup.
And then again, what is the kindof solution which they're
offering, whether thatparticular situation does they
demand that particular market ornot.
So that is very, very importantI think, which we marketers, uh,
sometimes miss or sometimes I, Iwould say that.
We actually, um, are buriedunder the pressure to deliver
(30:06):
the results wherein, um, uh, inthis entire game of bringing
everything onto the table in thepipeline for the salespeople, we
actually, um, uh, you can sayshy away and fear sometimes that
we have to take 10 stepsbackward and then really think
that does, is it bringing thevalue at the end of the year?
(30:27):
Will I be the one who will becutting that off, or will I be
the one who have to, you can sayno.
We have to completely, uh,forget about the solution we
have.
We really need something else.
So those are the things I thinkyou can actually, um, uh,
reframe or you can say you can,uh, uh, with a proper
evaluation, you can actually,um, uh, yeah, save the
Michael Hartmann (30:50):
trouble from that The, the, the phrase I've
heard, and I don't know where itwas, definitely not me who said
it, but I've heard it before, islike it's slowed down to speed
up.
You have to sort of take a stepback and slow down to speed up.
And so, okay, so one of thethings that I'm sure you've gone
through is, you know, as you'vekind of learned your way through
marketing, marketing, tech stuffas a marketer, is that then you
(31:13):
even, I think, alluded to itearlier when you talked about
integrations, right?
I think because there's so muchof this like point solution
stuff and or, or things that,you know, you maybe.
Two platforms, both have acapability but one's better than
the other.
So you sort of use the, the bestin class model, right?
Um, but then that forcesintegrations and the, all the
(31:35):
things that go on with that,including things like this just
happened really in my currentrole is that the, the CRM team
changed our state.
State code to state spelled out.
Right.
And so like, now that createsall kinds of other downstream
effects and we didn't know whatwas happening.
And um, so far it hasn't had anissue, but, but I, so, but it's
(31:59):
a small but important example oflike the importance of
integrations and consistencyacross these.
So how, like, how have you, haveyou got any lessons learned, uh,
from dealing with that kind ofstuff that you can share with
our listen.
Yes, definitely
Shikha Pakhide (32:14):
Michael.
Um, there are two situations onhow we can deal with that.
One is wherein you areinheriting the entire martex
space and you are not Evoinvolved interviewing the
evaluation and implementationtherein.
And of course you can't doanything, uh, you know that.
Okay.
You know, which were thesolutions which, which are able
to integrate with each other,so, In that situation wherein
(32:36):
you are inheriting everythingwork and see with the different,
um, you can say, uh, yoursupport teams over there, that
how you can make sure that allof them are integrating.
Because most of the time I haveseen that all the marketing
vendors, uh, they do have thaton their roadmap to integrate
most of the things because,because in the.
(32:57):
That is how they're gonna sell,right?
They will be selling theirparticular solution that, okay,
this is your one stop shopbecause it also integrates with
your CRM because it alsointegrates with your MAs, et
cetera, et cetera.
So that's one particular partthat go back to the producting
of that particular marketvendor, that whether they have
that in the roadmap or not, ifthat integration is.
(33:18):
Missing at that particular time.
Second is when you're dealing ina big space like an enterprise,
inheriting all these solution,work very closely with your it,
uh, and your data office teambecause they are the ones who
will be you.
You can see your enabler or yourspokesperson during those
decision making cycles and goingback to the vendors that, Hey,
we are not gonna be signing thecheck if we, these things are
(33:40):
not met because, This isimpacting our revenue.
This is our people are not ableto perform well, so make them
your spokesperson by workingclosely with them.
Again, you both should not be onthe other side.
You know, it shouldn't not belike an anti one, but a one team
approach over there.
And then the third is, See thatif the, the one doesn't work
(34:02):
wherein they don't have anyintegration at all.
So definitely you have to lookat the option, but again, when
you are evaluating the option,think about it that whether you
really need it or not, do athorough audit so that you're
not facing this problem again.
Now in the second space wherein,um, you are not inheriting, but
you are the one who are bringingeverything.
(34:22):
Right?
So my biggest learning andlesson, and you can say, uh,
share, which I would like toshare with the listeners is
that.
Think thoroughly and do theevaluation very in a, in a very
deep and intensive manner.
Because therein, uh, if you dothat in the beginning itself,
it's gonna save you all thetrouble, um, uh, at a later
(34:42):
stage One is definitely, um,when they're saying about the
integration, does it holdprofit?
In the principle or not, becausewhat exactly they do mean by
integration is just not likethat.
Okay.
Plug and play.
They're just gonna beintegrated.
No.
When they say integration, whatexactly does it mean?
The end objective.
When you are, you need to designyour workflows.
(35:03):
You need the entire flow tohappen.
You need the automation to work.
You need the assignment to work.
Is it able to achieve yourobjective?
Directly proportional to theintegrations.
That's my biggest lesson.
Michael Hartmann (35:16):
Yeah, no, I, um, I, I think that you, that,
that point about the, you, youcan't, I, I hate to say you
can't just trust those.
vendors.
I, I don't think that anybody'sintentionally, I'm sure there
are some people whointentionally, but generally
speaking right, that no one'sintentionally misleading.
But I think, um, it's really,you hit a good point cuz I've
(35:38):
been burned by this before whereyou didn't really dig in and
understand when they say thiscan integrate with that.
Right.
What does that actually mean?
Right.
Is it.
Um, yeah.
Is it all objects?
Is it custom objects?
Is it, is it real time?
Is it, what's a day like?
All those things matter and, andthey may matter more or less for
(35:59):
your particular situation, but Ithink that's true.
The, the one thing I would, Ithink I would add to your first
scenario where you'reinheriting, and this has been my
world a couple of times, is um,don't go in and make snap
judgements about what shouldchange.
Because, uh, what I've, whatI've learned is I've had to be
(36:21):
really, I've had to fight myurge to wanna move quickly.
When I see something, it goes,oh, that just doesn't look
right.
Because in this case, especiallyin enterprise kind of world,
right?
There was, there was, there wasstuff that was set up that maybe
wasn't.
well documented, um, or wasn'tdocumented at all.
And there's certain things that,um, may be happening that you're
(36:46):
not even aware of untilsomething else comes up and it
breaks.
Right.
And, which has saved me before.
So I've like, um, a couple oftimes where I've like, oh, I, I
come in, I like, I seesomething, I'm like, this
doesn't seem right.
I want, like, let's go.
I think we should go fix it.
But like, but let's wait.
And that's hard.
Um, especially.
If maybe it feels like thingsare not working well.
(37:10):
Right.
There's sand in the gear, so tospeak.
So, um, those are all goodpoints.
I, that's really good.
So, um, what, so the other partthat you touched on with that
had to do with, uh, Thesesystems integrations also affect
data and quality in the, theconfidence that leaders have in
it.
How, like how have you addressedthat part as well?
(37:34):
Um,
Shikha Pakhide (37:35):
uh, again, uh, I would like to present two
different scenarios here.
Uh, Michael Barnes, when I wasin the enterprise space and when
I was, uh, You know, in astartup phase.
So in the enterprise, uh, space,again, you have a leverage to
where an entire data team isthere or there are people who
are actually managing the entiredata office.
So how I worked when I wasworking in enterprise spaces, so
(37:56):
again, working closely withthem, but then again, uh,
working closely with them, you,you have to be very clear
because see, they're the datapeople.
They don't understand theirentire story.
You have to give them the facts.
What exactly is not working?
Where is the data leakage?
And then, um, uh, uh, yeah, andthen where exactly is the
(38:18):
leakage?
And then which are the datapoints, which they, you want
them to fix it up?
Either they have to fix it up orthe market person has to fix it
up.
Or at the marketing side, youhave to, you can say, redefine
that.
So that's how I know, uh, howyou can solve the data issues.
But when we are also talkingwith the startup world, there
in, um, uh, again, uh, you cansay there is a leverage because
(38:41):
you are just starting up.
You have the entire leverage toset up the processes.
Exactly the way you would liketo want.
And then, which is not leadingto all the data challenges at a
later stage.
So do it right the first timeitself.
So you'll have to, you know,again, reinvent the way.
So,
Michael Hartmann (38:57):
yeah.
Yeah.
So I think, um, couple things.
I like that, that approach therewhere you're talking about, uh,
and maybe I'm reading more intoit, but are you saying sort of
maybe.
Smaller in terms of reporting.
Like this is something we'vetalked about on on previous
episodes too, is like the, thebest time to do reporting is
now.
Right?
Don't wait till your data'sperfect.
(39:18):
Don't wait till your systems areperfect, but also don't try to
solve, don't, don't come outright outta the gates.
Try, try to create some massivedashboard, right?
Do one piece, get it right, moveon to the next piece.
So I think is a, is a solidapproach.
D has that worked for youbefore?
Is, is that how you've done itor is it, have you done
something a little more, alittle different?
Shikha Pakhide (39:38):
No, exactly.
That's what we did because ourmanagement, uh, when I was in
the enterprise phase, they werelike really, really worried and
they were really irritated that,uh, they were not able to see
one particular report, which isa right report.
They, of course, they don't havetime to look at the hundred
reports, so they just needed onereal time report and they all,
what they all cared was how manyleads.
(39:59):
what is the money we are pumpingin and what is the tactic, which
is bringing the, you know, themaximum amount of results.
That's what they care caredabout, you know?
Yeah.
As you said that we'd, we'd haveto create this entire.
Uh, beautiful or complicated orintricate dashboards.
So
Michael Hartmann (40:14):
Le lesson there is don't assume what those
executives want to see.
Right.
Um, and don't just the other,the other part, you, you used
the word stor story, and I, thisis another one that I've, uh,
I've become more and moreconvinced is, is actually
affecting not just marketingtech and marketing ops, but also
marketing in general, is that Ithink.
Um, marketers in general do apretty good, poor job of
(40:38):
storytelling with the data thatthey have.
Right?
Which is, which is a weird thingto say because you think
marketers would be the ones whocould do the storytelling, but.
it's complicated and it's notas, um, binary as sales.
Right.
So we've talked about them forYeah.
So have you, have you had to dothat before, right?
Not just the numbers, but thestory, the numbers are telling.
(40:59):
Have you, have you gone throughthat kind of process?
Uh,
Shikha Pakhide (41:02):
yes.
Uh, it was, uh, prettyinteresting that, uh, uh, it, it
was actually right onto my face.
Um, so, uh, when I was, uh,sharing the reports with my C P
O and my VP of sales, so he islike, okay, I get the.
What exactly it's telling me?
What are the kind of decisionsyou want me to make out of it or
what are the decisions you wouldlike to make when you are seeing
(41:24):
the data?
Yeah.
Trust me, I was dumb I was
Michael Hartmann (41:26):
dumbed.
Is this good or bad?
Like, I don't know.
Right.
No reference.
I have no reference point.
Shikha Pakhide (41:32):
Exactly.
So I was like, okay, fine.
No problem.
You, you did all this, uh, youare able to extract the data,
you are able to present thedata, but what next?
So exactly.
I, I think that's very, veryimportant, Michael.
Even when we are.
Uh, uh, we are using that reportonly for our own purpose as a
solo purpose.
Not even sharing that with themanagement.
(41:53):
We have to see and understandthat what exactly I'm trying to
derive from that particularreport.
Michael Hartmann (41:58):
What next?
Well, and I, the, I think themaybe corollary to that that
we've talked about too before isif you are asked to generate a
report for something, beforejust going off and generating
the report.
The a a good question ask iswhy, like, why, like what are
you, try, what are you trying tolearn from that?
Because maybe that's not theright report, right.
(42:20):
That you asked for, you know?
So I think, I think there's somesome good stuff there.
Well, Sheika, this has, this hasbeen a great conversation and I
think we probably, we probablydidn't even get to some of the
stuff we had hoped to, but.
Uh, kind of up against time.
I know your day is just gettinggoing there, so, and, and ours
is winding down here, but thankyou so much for joining us.
(42:42):
If folks want to kind of connectwith you or learn more about
what you're up to or, or followyou or whatever, what's the best
way for them to do that?
Shikha Pakhide (42:51):
Yeah.
Uh, send me a connection requeston LinkedIn.
I'd be more than happy to, uh,connect with you or definitely,
you know, uh, through the Slackcommunity.
I'm, I'm
Michael Hartmann (43:00):
all.
All right.
Yeah, so on the marketingops.com, slap slack, slap.
Wow.
I'm not sure where that camefrom.
Um, it's been a day.
Um, well, so that's great.
So we will definitely, once thisgoes out, we'll, we'll be
sharing your information aswell.
So thank you again for gettingup early there.
I know that was, is tough,especially given, um, yeah, I
(43:22):
think you have young kids too,so we appreciate that.
And so thank you to all ourlisteners.
Um, Thanks to Mike and Naomi,even though they're not here,
they're here in spirit.
And, uh, appreciate all thatthey do to help us keep this
going.
If you have suggestions forother guests or topics, um, we
are kinda thinking about thingsa little bit differently in
(43:42):
2023, but, um, definitely stillopen to ideas for people and
topics to include in ourepisodes.
And with that, I think thank youagain for your, your support.
And that's a wrap.
Bye.
Yep.
Shikha Pakhide (43:56):
Bye-bye.
And yeah, I think, uh, thank youMichael.
I I really love the entireconversation.
Um, thank you for having metoday,
Michael Hartmann (44:04):
All right, bye everyone.
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