The Missing Layer Between Strategy and Execution in Marketing with Charral Izhiman

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What if the biggest marketing problem in your organization isn't the marketing team at all?

In this episode, Michael Hartmann sits down with Charral Izhiman, Head of Marketing at Bayobab and author of The Marketing Movement, for a conversation about why so many organizations still misunderstand what marketing is supposed to do, and what it takes to fix that from both sides.

Charral's perspective is refreshingly different. Her book isn't written to teach marketers how to market. It's written to help non-marketing leaders understand how to actually work with marketing. 

That framing opens up a rich discussion about the gap between strategy and execution, and why Ops professionals may be the best-positioned people in the business to close it. In this conversation, they discuss:

• The outdated assumptions organizations still hold about marketing, and how marketers unintentionally reinforce them
• Why Ops teams sitting at the intersection of marketing, sales, finance, and leadership are uniquely positioned as translators across the business
• The SHAPE framework, and why "Activation" is the overlooked layer between planning and results
• Why organizations romanticize strategy and celebrate execution but skip operational readiness in the middle
• The Formula 1 metaphor for marketing leadership: everything that has to come together before you can even compete

Whether you're in Marketing Ops, RevOps, or marketing leadership, this episode is full of ideas for anyone trying to bridge the gap between strategy, operations, and the rest of the business.

 The conversation doesn't end here. Explore the full SHAPE framework and more in Charral's book, The Marketing Movement: https://themarketing-movement.com/

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Episode Transcript

Michael Hartmann (00:24):
Hello everyone.
Welcome to another episode ofOpscast, brought to you by
MarketingOps.com, empowered byall the mode pros out there.
I am your host, MichaelHartman, Flying Star Low once
again.
But today I'm joined by SherylIsiman, who is head of marketing
at Baeobab and the author ofThe Marketing Movement.
Sherelle brings a reallyinteresting perspective to
marketing leadership andorganizational change.

(00:46):
One of the themes that stoodout to me from previous
conversations with her is thatmany organizations still
fundamentally misunderstand whatmarketing is supposed to do.
Her work focuses less onteaching marketers how to market
and more on helpingorganizations understand how to
better work with marketing teamsin the first place.
So we're going to spend a lotof time in the ops world.
Well, we spend a lot of time inthe ops world talking about

(01:07):
systems, processes, execution,reporting, alignment.
And we're going to go in deepinto that in this conversation
and really into the tensionbetween strategy and execution,
the role that ops teams can playas translators across the
organization, and whyactivation, we'll get into what
that means for her, is often themissing step between planning
and results and how marketerscould do a better job connecting

(01:28):
the work to business impact.
Theme that I like.
All right.
We're also going to talk alittle bit about her shape
framework, which we'll get intostorytelling versus dashboards,
another hot topic for me.
Why marketing leaders need toconstantly zoom in and zoom out
between operational detail andstrategic perspectives.
Sherelle, thank you forjoining.

Charral Izhiman (01:46):
Thank you very much, Michael.
And hello, marketing opscommunity.

Michael Hartmann (01:50):
Yeah, we're glad to have you here.
All right.
Well, let's dig into this.
So one of the things from ourearlier conversations that
really stood out is that you'renot really you didn't really try
to write a book for marketers,which is an interesting one
being your background, and thatyou're trying to help
non-marketing leaders understandmarketing better.
Why was that so important toyou?
And what how, like, I'd becurious also, what's the

(02:13):
reception been for it?

Charral Izhiman (02:16):
So it was important for me to do that
because when I was looking atthe market, there are so many
books out there by marketers formarketers, and it's a complex
profession.
Um, but it hasn't changed theway non-marketing leaders engage
with the department of thefunction.
There's all these there are allthese misconceptions and um

(02:36):
preconceived ideas, um, which isnot helping marketing do its
best work.
So I was like, okay, I reallyneed to find a way to get the
best out of my leaders, thepeople I work with, uh, so that
we can do a better job.
And it dawned on me that Iactually need to start
translating the functions.
But obviously, you don't wantto translate the whole function
to, you know, a non-marketingaudience.

(02:58):
Uh, and that's when the ideaslowly developed, and I was
like, okay, I need to write abook uh that simplifies it
enough for them to work wellwith us so that we do a better
job.
So it came, it was, it was, itwas a real crucial need in my
day-to-day job to uh to have abetter conversation with
non-marketing leaders.

Michael Hartmann (03:17):
No, so it was a little bit of a survival
instinct kind of thing.

Charral Izhiman (03:20):
Absolutely.
And it took a while to to to toget there as well.

Michael Hartmann (03:24):
Well, I'm fascinated by this because I
think I don't know, it wasseveral years ago.
I remember reading something,and I don't know if the data is
still accurate, but somewhere uhI saw that it was like well
less than 10%, maybe closer tounder 5% of like board members
or senior executives had neverreally worked in marketing

(03:45):
themselves.
So they like they've just notreally been in those shoes
either.
So it makes sense that peopledon't understand it.

Charral Izhiman (03:54):
It does.
And I don't think I don't thinkthey're necessarily too
interested.
I think you know it's it'smeant to be someone else's job,
but it doesn't help the peoplewho do that for a living do
their best.

Michael Hartmann (04:06):
Yeah, yeah.
So what like when you when youstarted doing this, what what
are the um what are some of theoutdated assumptions about
marketing or biggestmisconceptions that um you see
that that are happening inorganizations?

Charral Izhiman (04:21):
I mean, I found it really depends on um when
somebody was exposed to themarketing profession or a
marketing team.
Some of them think it'sadvertising, if they're maybe an
older generation, some mightthink it's PR.
There'll be people who see itjust as social.
Um many just think it's youknow, it's uh full of hype and
campaigns and the pretty things.
Yeah, so many differentmisconceptions, really.

(04:44):
Um it depends who you speak to.

Michael Hartmann (04:46):
Sure.
Yeah.
I mean, it feels like um Iremember one of the things I've
talked about is like the thefour P's, right?
There's like only one P seemsto matter anymore, which is I
guess promotion, right?
So yeah.
Um okay, so one of the thingsI've talked about before, and I
think you and I talked aboutbefore that I agree with, is

(05:07):
that part of the problem isactually on you know, sh at the
feet of marketers who've notreally done a great job of
communicating what their roleis, what they do to the rest of
the organization.
Like, what's your take on that?
Do you mean do you think that'spart of the problem?
And uh curious, like part ofthe told I hadn't read your
book.
So is part of the what you dohelp to also address marketers,

(05:31):
how could you better communicateto your executive team?

Charral Izhiman (05:35):
Definitely.
I think marketing professionalsare you know too deep too deep
in their daily routine and work.
And I don't think theytranslate their work very well,
especially when it goes, youknow, upstream.
I think it needs to startspeaking or sound like business
impact.
And you know, they're talkingabout so much detail that you
know your average leader can'tabsorb.
And I also think um that thereneeds to be a tangle.

(05:58):
You need to be able to step outof your space into someone
else's shoes to speak theirlanguage.
So there's a lot of translationand interpretation that needs
to happen rather than you know,stick to the terms and and
phrases that you would use inyour day job.

Michael Hartmann (06:12):
Yeah, I mean, it's the irony to me in all this
is that marketer, part of whatI think are perceived as being
good at is communicating,especially communicating to the
to their audience, but theysomehow regularly miss that on
the internal audience, right?
I mean, that's the sort ofirony of all this, right?

Charral Izhiman (06:30):
Absolutely.
I agree with you so much.
Uh I think there's morepressure though, isn't there?
When it's when it's your own,there's more pressure uh and you
you you lean on the details toomuch.
Well, that's not the point.
And that's why in the book Iused a lot of storytelling and
metaphors.
So I simplified it.
So when I am explainingsomething uh related to
marketing to a colleague or aleader, I'm not using you know a

(06:53):
traditional language, I'mactually using a story, a
metaphor, just something sodifferent because they're not
really that interested in ourterminology.
So why go there?
Yeah, then and it would also beducking down the profession a
little bit, which I don't wantto do.

Michael Hartmann (07:07):
Right.
Oh, that's a really good point.
I never thought, I mean, I'mwith you on the storytelling
piece, and maybe we can talkmore about that in here in a
bit, but I hadn't really thoughtabout it as a way of dumbing,
like dumbing it down so itactually contributes to this
misperception of what it is.
That's um that's a really goodinsight.
Yeah, I love that.

(07:28):
Yeah, so well, okay, so maybelet's take this a little bit uh
uh uh maybe a level deeper.
So as you know, right ouraudience is primarily marketing
ops or rev ops people.
And one of one of the things Ilike about the the role is how
it sits at an intersectionbetween you know marketing,
sales, finance, legalleadership, you know, it's sort

(07:51):
of like you need you know,you've got to have have feet at
least be able to translate well,right?
So I think that ops teams areuniquely positioned to help do
that translation betweenmarketing and the rest of the
business.
Do you agree with that?
And if so, like what have youseen from the marketing ops
teams in particular, I guess,that you've worked with?
How have they helped you helpedyou as a leader do that

(08:12):
communication?

Charral Izhiman (08:14):
I definitely think market ops have a unique
opportunity to translate.
I was thinking about itactually earlier today, and it's
not just translation though, Ithink it's interpretation
because you never know whatproblem they're gonna deal with
or what misconception somebodyputs on the table where they go,
no, let me unpack that.
What do you really mean?
And you keep going, you'redrilling deep until you get
there.
So I think they have theopportunity with the

(08:35):
one-on-ones, but I still thinkthere is a responsibility for
the marketing leader andleadership in general to set up
to educate a bit the audiencefurther, you know.
So I think you need to do itfrom the top and you know,
basically one-on-one.
So there's a bit of both goingon there.

Michael Hartmann (08:52):
Are you talking about from the top and
the and one-on-one with I wastrying to make sure the
one-on-one, you're talking aboutlike with the marketing leader
and the marketing ops team ormarketing ops leader one-on-one,
or are you talking aboutone-on-one with conversations
with others outside of themarketing organization?

Charral Izhiman (09:08):
I mean, it goes back to the communication uh
element you talked about,really, isn't it?
I think you can't under youcan't over-communicate in this
instance.
Like if you've got anopportunity one-on-one to to
clarify something, you need togo for it.
Uh, but I think the leadershipteam needs to be speaking the
language of marketing so thatthey can use that in business.
I think uh it's it's it's kindof cross-functional.

(09:30):
It just you need to communicateit from so many different
angles because the misconceptionis uh the baseline, you know,
that is the truth.
Our baseline is that they don'tunderstand, and then we're not
gonna all of a sudden educate anon-marketing audience, it
doesn't make sense either.
So you've got to find adifferent way to do it to
influence.

Michael Hartmann (09:47):
Yeah.
Have you uh so just curious,have you um, because I've I've
been asked to do this, sit inwith the CMO and meetings with
the senior executives and try tolike actually be the one to
when the CFO asks a question,right?
Right, I am I'm the one ask uhanswering the questions.
Have you brought in yourmarketing ops team to help with
some of that facilitating someof that uh communication with

(10:10):
executive teams, or do you tendto make sure that you're
comfortable understanding it andthen and then do that
translation yourself?

Charral Izhiman (10:18):
I think you have to bring in the team
because um otherwise you comeacross as a one-man band, you
know, you have all the answers,and that defeats the point.
You do have a team, that's thewhole point of what marketing is
like.
There are generalists, thereare specialists, and you don't
have the answers yourself.
Somebody can explain it betterthan you sometimes.
So I think the breadth isimportant, it gives more
credibility to um the kind ofmessage you need to portray.

Michael Hartmann (10:43):
Yeah.
And what I find is when you getinto those scenarios, very
often there you may be preparedas well as you can be, but then
there will be a question thatcomes up that you would need
somebody else to help youanswer.
Absolutely.
So it's having somebody therewho can can address those, or at
least say, Yes, we can addressthat, and this is how we're
gonna do it, and we'll bring itback to you next time, right?
I think there's different waysto handle that.
But well, I'm glad to hear thatbecause I think I don't know

(11:06):
that a lot of marketing opsteams get to do that.
I think they're held kind of atarm's length from the other
teams in case in some cases.
All right.
So I mentioned this when I whenI when I introduced you, the
idea of um zooming in andzooming out.
You mentioned in our previousconversations of support to be
doing that sort of zooming andzooming out.

(11:27):
I guess first of all, like whatdo you mean by that, right?
Um, and then why is it why doyou think it's hard for most
marketing organizations tomaintain that that that balance
of going back and forth betweenzooming and zooming out?

Charral Izhiman (11:41):
So the reason why I like the idea of zooming
in and zooming out becausenothing is static, you know.
Um the conditions of thesituations that you're dealing
with are never static.
They keep changing, and that'swhy the book ended up uh uh
being called The Market andMovement, because I realize
things are always moving,they're always changing.
So um, and zooming in andzooming out is because it's one

(12:03):
thing to have a strategy and tohave execution, but sometimes
you've got to go back and go,why am I doing this?
And say, and then you're stilldoing it.
And it's just just kind of it'slike this reminder.
So, and that's why I feel likeyou're moving.
That's why the word movementwas such a big deal to me.
Because um, and I was thinkingabout strategy just today as
well.
It's not just businessstrategy, it's your marketing
strategy and then your brandstrategy, your growth, et

(12:25):
cetera, et cetera.
So you can't keep all of thatin your mind, you know.
So you have to step away, uh,you know, big picture and then
the details and so on and soforth.
So you need to be able to movelike that.

Michael Hartmann (12:37):
Uh I'm curious.
So not quite on the same level,but I've worked in a market, at
least one marketingorganization is the one I can
think, I think of when I come tothis, where the marketing
leadership team worked reallyhard on developing norms of how
we're going to operate withinthe marketing team.
Well, start out with theleadership team, and then we
said, well, let's roll this outto the rest of the team.
And one of the things we did,this was still when we were all
in an office, was literally hada one pager that was like, like

(13:00):
we said, you know, put it up onyour desk.
We're print it out, put it upon your desk as a reminder.
Do you do you think there wouldbe value in having something
like that?
That's these reminders betweenlike on a daily basis, like
here's this, like here's our bigpicture strategy, what we're
trying to achieve.
So when you're working onsomething, like are you or
something comes in from a side,right?
I is it is it aligned with thator not, right?

(13:21):
Or is it are we knowing thatit's not, but we still have to
deal with it, right?
Do you think there's be valuein something like that?

Charral Izhiman (13:27):
It's so interesting that you say that
because you know we were all inthe same office, but we're not.
I mean, my team is around theworld, so I don't have that
privilege at all, actually.
I mean, we do have like youknow, one slide which summarizes
everything, but also I thinkthat's great for the team, the
marketing team itself, but itdoesn't mean everyone else is
looking at the same one page,right?

(13:48):
So true.
Yeah.
And I also think a lot I alsofind that most business leaders
that they want to talk and to beheard.
So you when you intervene, um,you've kind of got to be to the
point and it's verysolution-oriented, which goes
back to your point, rightbringing in the rest of the
team, because I think they canoften brainstorm live and solve

(14:08):
a problem live uh with that withthe extra details.

Michael Hartmann (14:12):
Yeah.
Well, and what I find in thoseis like if there's a a problem
or something that you're tryingto resolve, usually most cases I
found like there's not a cleardefinitive this is the direction
we should go or the answer tothat problem, and that there's
trade-offs between differentones and having more
perspectives tend in inencouraging that kind of um you

(14:36):
know active debate or discussionum is is usually generates the
best understanding of what thosetrade-offs are gonna be.
So you can make an informeddecision, right?
You know that, like, oh, we'regonna go down this path, and we
know that that means that we'regonna be giving up this thing,
or there's a risk that we'regonna take on.
Uh, but I think that's thereality of it.

(14:56):
I think that's the value ofhaving those different voices in
in a discussion like that.

Charral Izhiman (15:02):
Absolutely.
And to your point, I thinkhaving the North Star makes
sense.
So you need that, and you needto, you need to obviously, once
you've realized your strategy,implement.
But I think um how that thatchanges quite a bit.

Michael Hartmann (15:15):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, and I I mean, I'm a bigfan of like I probably mentioned
this on this project before.
I'm a big fan of one of thebooks that really influence me.
It's called Execution, theDiscipline of Getting Things
Done, which is a little bit of alike rough title to get
through.
But I mean, what I rememberwhat really stuck out to me is
like strategy is important, butyou need a strategy that can be

(15:37):
you, you know, you just need tostart executing, you're not
going to be able to predicteverything.
And so you need to be to haveone that's flexible enough that
you can adjust, right?
Now, there may be North Starthings, right?
Core things you need to achieveor goals you're you're setting,
but I think leaving the roomfor adjustment is really
important in the strategy.
So um that's really like apoint of view I have.

(15:59):
I so okay, so one of the thingsin your, I think it's in your
book you developed was theframework called Shape, so S H A
P E, right?
So uh why don't you walk usthrough what that is and you
know why why people should careabout it?

Charral Izhiman (16:13):
So I actually developed the framework at the
end.
I had written all the chaptersand then like, okay, what does
this mean?
You know, what am I trying tosay here?
And it dawned on me that thesections of the book were
basically a whole framework thatkind of summarizes it.
And the reason why I chose theshape framework is because um
the book is about shaping thefoundation uh for a team to
succeed, you know, and um andthe then the five letters stand

(16:37):
for something.
So shape is your strategy, youralignment, um, you know,
exactly you know, your NorthStar, um heart is people, it's
brand, it's all the things to dowith feeling and connecting.
Uh, activation was the reallyinteresting one, which is the
probably what the heart of thebook itself, which is just all
the work you need to do to beready to be in business.

(16:58):
Um, and then purpose is prettystraightforward because it's
inspired by the brand, by thebusiness, what the impact, the
impact the company's trying tohave.
And execution is a no-brainer.
We all know that one.
So I found that strategy andexecution, everybody knows them
pretty well.
But it's the elements inbetween that I was like, okay,
don't forget about these.
And I've just I described theshape uh framework as pillars.

(17:20):
And if you were just to imaginethat, imagine having some
pillars that are, you know,sturdy and the others that are
crumbling.
It would just not make anysense.
So what I'm arguing is youcan't have a few and not the
rest, you have to have them all.
And it's because I've seen manyinstances where one of them is
neglected or overlooked, and Ijust don't think it may I don't
think it works that way.
You you need to treat them umthe same level of importance.

Michael Hartmann (17:43):
No, this is a I I think this is really
interesting.
So the the strategy andexecution people tend to
understand, and they're easiestprobably to describe, right?
Yeah, and there's sort of thebookends is required.
I like this idea that there'sthese other elements that you
could use as a way ofcommunicating other components.
And um yeah, I think I thinkit's interesting.

(18:05):
It feels like some of those,this is where it gets a little
bit squishy, probably, becausethere's elements of that that
seem to apply both to likeinternal stakeholders and
executives as well ascustomer-facing stuff.
Am I understanding that right?

Charral Izhiman (18:19):
Absolutely, yeah, absolutely.
And I wanted to translate thatway as well because you've got
to align yourself internally tothen you know do the work you
need to do externally.
You know, that it's a mirrorfrom my perspective.
So you have to get your uhpillars in order.

Michael Hartmann (18:34):
Got it.
Yeah, this is this is reallyinteresting.
All right, so the activationone in shape um is probably the
one that feels the mostconnected to our ops audience.
Um, and it feels like it mightbe an overlooked one.
Uh, can you break that down alittle more?
And and when you say um thelike the things that they need
to do, like what are what areorganizations missing when it

(18:55):
comes to activation andreadiness to to move forward
with the strategy and execution?

Charral Izhiman (19:01):
I think when it comes to activation, um it's
about being ready to dosomething, whatever it is,
whatever your goals are.
I find that it's taken forgranted that somebody's gonna
activate, somebody's gonna sortout what you need to do so that
you're basically um starting arace.
And that's why I've usedmetaphors in the book.
And I like the F1 metaphorquite a bit because imagine
starting a race but not havingwheels, or nobody checking the

(19:24):
engine, or there's no driver, orI mean, there's a million
problems you can imagine.
And we all appreciate you knowthe nature of a race.
It's the same thing.
If you don't have a checklistthat you've gone through, having
got the right resources,people, systems, all of it, um,
you're gonna flop, you're gonnafail.
Um, so and that's I find thatone a really good way to explain

(19:44):
activation because, like I saidearlier, people don't really
want to understand how marketingworks, but they can absolutely
appreciate that they wouldn'tdare, you know, uh put a racing
team on the track that wasn'tready to race and win.
So it's it's like, oh, okay, Iget why you're saying this.
I don't know the details, butI'll appreciate it and I'll let
you do what you need to do.

(20:05):
You know, so that was where itcame from.

Michael Hartmann (20:08):
So it sounds like there's a little bit of
element of that that um I don'tknow that I picked up on when we
first talked about it, is hasto be with clarity around roles
and responsibilities, too,right?
Because take the F1 one, likeif it's not clear who's gonna be
the one, you know taking thewheels, like doing the release
of the wheels, and it's who'sgonna put them back on, who's

(20:29):
gonna tighten them?
Like everybody's got individualroles um and responsibilities.
And if any one of them fallsapart, right, car goes out and
the wheel comes off.
I mean, is that part of it too?
Is it just not only becausethat's probably like the you
described sort of like these arethe things that we would need
to do to be able to activate tomove forward, but there's also
like who's gonna do what?

(20:50):
Is that part of it as well?

Charral Izhiman (20:52):
It is because it's the system, it's the
people, it could be resources ofany kind.
Um, all of them come together.
It's quite a chunky part, Ithink, to be fair.
And I and I do feel like umthere are assumptions because
somebody might be assuming arole um and they're busy with
this, they can't do that, butboth things need to be done.
Um, so yeah, it's it's all ofthose things.

(21:14):
And I find them they're they'revery operational, you know,
going back to marketing oftenare very operational.
It's kind of like it's someoneelse's uh job to do, because the
higher you go up in leadership,the more strategy is you know,
everybody's focus, and executionis very easy to see.

Michael Hartmann (21:31):
Yeah.
Well, and I think what happensif that's not that's not clear
is people make assumptions aboutwho's gonna do what.
And then when it doesn'thappen, because I assumed you
were gonna do it, but you didn'tyou assumed that someone else
was gonna do it or no, or youdidn't think it was yours, then
it doesn't get done, and theneveryone pays the price for
that.

Charral Izhiman (21:50):
Absolutely, yeah.

Michael Hartmann (21:51):
Yeah, and I think that's that's important.
Um, so it's it's interesting.
I maybe it's interesting nowthat we've talked about the the
two outside parts of shape andthe the one that's in the
middle.
Um maybe maybe talk about likeI I I don't fully understand the
the I can't remember what Hstands for now.
I was off the top of my head.

(22:12):
So the H in the in the P inshape, what can I talk through
those again a little moredetail, please?

Charral Izhiman (22:18):
Sure.
So the H is heart.
So um heart for me itBasically, it relates to uh the
brand, it relates to people, sointernal stakeholders, the
customer, customer sensor, thevoice of the customer,
connecting, communication, allof those elements.
Um, because you do need acommunication plan, you need
obviously a customer engagementplan, you need to have a brand.

(22:40):
You know, you you know, brandis a foundation element, and
membership is about shaping yourfoundation.
So that's what heart is about.
It's all those elements thatmake the uh experience warm, is
one way to look at it.
That's why I chose the wordheart.
And um, as for P purpose, andit really is very much related
to the strategy you have, uh,your business objectives, your

(23:02):
mission, your vision, whatyou're trying to achieve, the
impact you will have on thecommunity.
Uh, it's just that extra layerof uh you know uh orienting you,
I suppose, to what you'retrying to achieve.

Michael Hartmann (23:14):
Okay.
I think okay, so the hard onehas to do with um how we want
both internal stakeholders andcustomers or prospects to kind
of feel about the brand.
I mean, I'm paraphrasing, isthat close to what I'm just
you're saying?

Charral Izhiman (23:33):
Yeah, it's the it's to how they will engage the
brand because I mean, what willa brand do?
I mean, a brand is importantfor your foundation as a
marketing team, uh as amarketing team, but how do you
know a brand is successful ifit's resonating with the
customers and it is actuallyhelping you with your growth
marketing and so on and soforth?
And uh for it to resonateexternally, it needs to be uh,

(23:53):
you know, adopted and you needpeople need to believe in it
internally.
So it just plays such animportant foundation.
It's not just logos and colorsand uh taglines and those those
kind of you know, yeah, that'slike the least part of it.
Face value things, yeah,exactly.
Yeah, it's it's it's the heart.
That's why I like to uhdescribe it as the heart because
you either feel it, it movesyou, uh it does something uh

(24:16):
which which is intangible untilyou quantify it as equity, but
you know, it does matter and itdoes help you move.
And that's the whole point isyou want to move an organization
forward.

Michael Hartmann (24:27):
Yeah, well, and and then the purpose is
really, I think it feels likeit's alignment around um values,
norms, um, you know, what's thebigger purpose, right?
Uh of the organization.
And I mean, I think that'simportant because especially if
you're in an organization, likepeople want to be part of
something that has purpose.
I think I think there's a lotof that missing in a lot of

(24:48):
people's professional lives.
Um and I want to drill downthose because I feels like the
it would be easy to skip overthose from an operation
standpoint, but it feels likeagain, kind of going back to
like having something in frontof you that goes like this is
the norms we expect for us,right?
So if we're gonna live out ourvalues, this is like this is how

(25:09):
we're gonna communicate, bothinternally and externally.
This is the expectations we'regonna have for people.
Um and the the the hard part,here's what like the where it
comes to me with uh from an opstandpoint.
I would love to get your takeon this.
Is one of the things I see alot of organizations, especially
big organizations, is there'sthis um this in sort of uh a

(25:33):
norm that happens is like we'relike really cautious about how
people communicate to customers,right?
Or who can do it.
And uh, and then maybe there'slots of layers of approvals and
reviews on content and thingslike that.
And I'm like that's such aslowdown thing.
Like, if we if we let peoplelike we give people the grace,
like we trust you to do thisbecause you all understand

(25:56):
there's elements that are partof heart and purpose that we
trust you you're gonna make thebest decisions you can in the
moment to say communicate with afrustrated customer or
something, um, and then givegrace with it if it doesn't go
well, and then learn from it.
Like in my like that's why Ifeel like it's an important
piece.
And it's it's really I don'tthink a lot of organizations

(26:17):
I've seen or been around havereally talked about that and
then lived it out.

Charral Izhiman (26:23):
Absolutely agree with you.
And it's interesting.
I think we do a lot of uh we doa lot of brand education um
where I work right now.
And um I think people who arecustomer facing still feel the
pressure.
Um, did I am gonna say theright thing?
Um when you would you want tocheck this?
Uh, should I do this?
Should it not do that?
And I'm at the moment, I'mtrying to encourage everybody to

(26:45):
just, you know, live the brand,represent it, you know, like as
long as you are moving forwardwith good intent, the chances
are you are gonna do the rightthing because you've got all the
right values, ideas, andtraining in place.
And I do think you need to dothat because I don't think you
can't we can't be a bottleneckanymore.
And time is changing, you know,like we've got all these
platforms, uh social, um,user-generated content, all of

(27:08):
that.
And it's it's normal togenerate content.
So if you don't know how torepresent your brand, uh I'd say
it's a bit outdated.
You need to be able to do thatbecause it's just everyday life.
Content is so easy to create,and we all do that.

Michael Hartmann (27:20):
Yeah, well, and it exactly.
We're all this is when I wasdoing work in like customer
service kind of or customersupport kind of stuff, is um,
you know, people always had touse very rigid, structured ways
of pushing knowledge-basedcontent out, right?
And it took so long, it nevergot reviewed.
And so people who were actuallydoing the communicating

(27:42):
directly had their own version,right?
They were already communicatingstuff.
So I was like, why put allthese hurdles in the way of
getting it out?
If it's we think if we trulybelieve that getting these
answers to customers so they cansolve their own problems faster
is useful.
And it was such a hard thing toget people to really go like,
oh yeah, like that recognition,like the communication's already

(28:02):
happening, whether you know itor not.
Now we can at least make itmore visible.

Charral Izhiman (28:06):
Absolutely, yeah.
Yeah.
And it's a bit of trust, isn'tit?
There's a bit of trust there,isn't there?
I think people want to givethem a bit of trust.
And you know, if it's notperfect, so be it.
You know, you but I thinkintent, I do think customers uh
read intent, you know, as longas the intention was well and uh
it's behaving.
So it's better to show up thanto be too scared to show up.

Michael Hartmann (28:29):
Yeah, and and I I totally agree with that.
Okay, so um we talked aboutlike the strategy execution are
pretty well understood, and um Ithink in some ways I think
marketers tend to part of theircommunication tends to fall
towards what called execution,including the metrics about
execution.
Why why do you think that umwhy do you think that there's it

(28:53):
feels like there's morecelebration of execution versus
strategy in a lot oforganizations?
Why do you think that is?
Or might tell me I'm off basehere.

Charral Izhiman (29:03):
No, I I think I agree with you.
I I think execution, if I wasjust to think of an army, I
think execution is the soldiers.
They just so many people areexecuted, there's so much work
to be executed, to be done,right?
But strategy, you know, it'svery much uh a direction, you
know.
You you in a way, once you knowwhere you're going, you know,
you don't change your strategyevery day, do you?
But it takes so much to realizethat strategy.

(29:25):
So I suppose that's whathappens.
Um, so I think we we we end uphaving this comfort that a
strategy is done and realized orsorted out, you know, and that
all the work now is execution.
But interestingly, yourstrategy sometimes has to
change, doesn't it?
Sometimes you have to fear,sometimes, you know, you know,
the market's changed or youknow, it doesn't work anymore.

(29:46):
That that will happen too.

Michael Hartmann (29:47):
So yeah.
I mean, that's why I'm a bigfan of having a strategy.
I I don't want to discount theeffort you should put into
developing a strategy.
I think you need to have that.
But I think, again, like havingthe flexibility to adjust based
on what really happened.
The the analogy I use, eventhough I'm not a sailor, is
sailing, right?
I know I want to go from pointA to point B.

(30:08):
The best I know is theconditions that are really close
to me.
What I don't know is when I getout, right?
Is the wind shift, wind goingto change direction?
Is it gonna stop?
Is it like, and I have to bereally ready to adjust to still
make it to like head in theright direction and then then
learn and adjust.
And that's like I feel likethat's the way strategy should
be, right?
You need to like, oh, I need togo here from here to there.

(30:30):
I know generally where I how Ineed to start going there, but I
need to be flexible.

Charral Izhiman (30:35):
Absolutely.
One of the chapters in thebook, um, and I I used metaphors
uh related to direction, and itwas the audience is the
compass.
And I think ultimately, youknow, that is how you know which
way you need to go.
Um, and I'm going back to theF1 when I was listening to you
there as well.
Like when people are on thetrack, but when they're making
decisions which race to join,it's the same thing.

(30:56):
You you can't do everything inanything uh as well.
Um, you've got to choose whatactually makes sense for the
business and what you're tryingto achieve.
So yeah.

Michael Hartmann (31:05):
I mean, it's it's this is like one of the
biggest lessons, both inpersonal productivity and in
business, is like choosingwisely what to say no to.

Charral Izhiman (31:13):
Yeah, very much so.
Absolutely.

Michael Hartmann (31:16):
Um, because we all feel like we want to do
like a lot of us in this spacewant to do more.
Um, okay, so I want to getmaybe this is where we can kind
of move come back to thestorytelling piece.
So one of the things I thinkyou and I talked about talked
about before was you know,there's obviously a need for
reporting and metrics.
And um, oftentimes it comes tomarketing ops teams, is like I

(31:39):
want a dashboard.
So one of the challenges I keeprunning into is that um, yeah,
sometimes like there's a desireto do metrics for metric's sake
almost, right?
And they don't internally don'talways match what kind of going
back to the original premise,right?
That the other parts of thebusiness don't understand
marketing.
From your perspective, howshould marketing leaders be

(32:04):
thinking differently about whatthey're measuring and reporting
to the organization?
And where does like and thenmaybe go into like where the
storytelling piece comes in?

Charral Izhiman (32:16):
Well, when it comes to metrics and dashboards,
uh I used Metaphor Sweet Shop.
And I think it really is.
I feel like dashboards are likea sweet shop.
You go in there, and there's somany things you could buy or
taste or try, but do they reallydo you really need them or you
don't?
And I think that's the samething as dashboards.
I think you know, an idealdashboard for a mature

(32:36):
organization um has a lot inthere, but then different
stakeholders need to see from adifferent perspective.
So, anyway, you need differentversions of that.
Um, and it can get excitingbecause the data gives you a lot
of obviously helps you makedecisions, but you you really
don't need it all.
And and different stakeholdersand different levels in the
organization need different dataanyway.

(32:56):
So I I've actually I really shyaway from dashboards and I kind
of like the idea of what onething to really need to know,
one thing at a time, one thingat a time.
And and it goes back to thesweet shop, like a sugar rush, a
sugar rush, you know.
You just don't need them all.
You need one thing, and just ifit's social, just to keep it
really simple.
Um, you know, if you'restarting out fresh, maybe you

(33:18):
need followers, maybe it reallyis just how many people see me,
know me.
Uh, but eventually you needengagement, nothing else.
Just focus on that and and youkeep evolving.
But I don't think you wantmeasuring them all just feels
like you're getting busy.
I think it's like an overload.
And I don't find it helpsbecause uh it just becomes
overwhelming and you don't knowwhich one you want to advance.

(33:39):
And you need to uh when I didthe shape framework, I also came
up with the Move It ReadinessIndex.
And concept there was what'syour next quarter moves?
What's the one thing you needto do?
Just one thing.
I like to scale it back so muchuh because I've needed to scale
it back myself so often aswell.
You know, when I've gone, oh mygod, there's all these things
that everybody wants and expectsof me.

(34:00):
But really, which one will Ifocus on so that I can go and
say, okay, I move the needlehere, and this was the impact.
Um, so I think of metrics uhand dashboards as a sweet shop,
like you can't have them all,you have to be disciplined, you
know.

Michael Hartmann (34:15):
That's a fun analogy.
Yeah, I mean, I think everytime I get I've been asked to
like go build a dashboard and wedidn't have any others like
like no, I uh I almost want tosay no.
I usually don't just say no,but I will say, like, kind of to
your point, like what are thethings like what are the initial
metrics you think we should weyou we need?
And let's start there, likelet's nail that down.

(34:35):
Um, but you you hit you hintedat this, and I think this is a
really important point is evenif we say we want to do all
these metrics, not all of themare appropriate for every
audience, right?
And I think that's a reallyimportant distinction that that
a lot of marketing and marketingops teams need to understand is
it's amazing how much data wehave as marketers now.

(34:56):
It's truly incredible.
Yeah.
So, like, like, and so there'sthis, I think there's this urge
to be data driven in quotes,right?
Which I really hate even usingthat term because I like I think
it the the risk there is thatyou get caught up in data for
data's sake and not useful,especially for the right the
wrong audience, right?
So if you're talking about, Iyou give you your example, your

(35:18):
social media ones, right?
I don't know how much the CEOor CFO is going to care about
that unless you can bridge thatwith a story, right?
Yeah, this is why we care aboutengagement, right?
Um, but you don't necessarilyneed to show all the other stuff
underneath it.
Now, should the the marketingteam, especially the p team
that's working on that,understand the sort other
details of that?
Absolutely, right?

(35:40):
But that's a different audiencefor a different purpose, yeah.
Yeah.
So tell me your like I I know Ihave my own sort of version of
why I think storytelling is a isa missed opportunity for a lot
of marketers, and I think itgoes back to this desire to be
more seen as data driven, thatwe've almost gone too far in the
direction of just presentingdata and numbers as opposed to

(36:01):
telling stories internally.
What like what's your take onit?
Like, is there a time that likesomething clicked for you where
that happened?
Or what's your like what's yourview on storytelling as a part
of measurement?

Charral Izhiman (36:14):
I think for me, storytelling is basically
helping this the person youspeak to understand.
I think they're you know, themind is like a parachute, it
works best when it's open.
And I think if you thrownumbers at people, um they're
trying to comprehend and take itall in and connect the dots.
But if you if you deliver thatas a story, it's it's easier.
You know, they can just theycan absorb what you mean.

(36:35):
Um, and that's why I go back tometaphors again because
metaphors stories are kind ofwork together.
But I think it just helpssomething land quicker, and I
think it neutralizes myterminology as a professional
and your terminology ofprofessional, and it just helps
us speak plain English in a way,really.
And I find stories help us dothat.
They're quick, they're short,there's a bit of emotion in

(36:55):
there, so we could kind of getit, but you're also delivering,
you know, a few facts here andthere.
So I like delivering storiesthat way because of that.
And also from my side, I don'tremember every term that uh I
need to use as well.
So it's like me making sure Iwill deliver uh a story that you
know resonates and peopleunderstand rather than trying to
go, okay, remember this andthis and that.

(37:16):
You know, so it's it's deliveryand it's also how it's
received.
You know, I find it just makesit so much easier for
communication.

Michael Hartmann (37:23):
Yeah, I mean, I love the idea of analogies or
metaphors.
Um, curious what your take islike how important is it?
Because you you kind of, I'mnot sure I picked this up, but
it sounded like you don't love,I'm putting putting words in
mind, don't love the idea ofusing your terminology or the
terminology of the per otherperson or people that you're
referring to.
Um, in my view, like I thinkunderstanding their terminology

(37:46):
is useful.
I don't know that I would usetheir terminology to talk about
how market like what marketing'sdone, unless it made sense to
do it.
Sales is probably the mostlogical place, but did I am I am
I misunderstanding what you'resaying?
Like it's not that you don'twant to use it, is it more that
you don't want to use theirterms or um but you still want
to understand it, or is itsomething else?

Charral Izhiman (38:07):
No, no, no.
I mean, I I I appreciate yourquestion there, actually.
It's not that I don't want touse someone else's terms because
sometimes you have to, becausethat's helps understanding to
go.
So sometimes you have to.
But I think you don't want tobe too jargon heady, you know,
from both sides.
I just don't think I think thatcan complicate a conversation.
I do think there is merit injust speaking plain English
sometimes, you know, like youknow, um, you know, like for

(38:30):
example, CapEx or uh Bita or theterms like that.
I mean, I think sometimes youjust want to generally talk
about if you are helping theprofit, if you are um you've got
engaged customers or you justgotta admit there's attrition.
I just think sometimessimplifying it just makes it
real.
And I think in the end, we arepeople, you know, and we can
relate to that.

(38:51):
So it's a relatability elementreally more than it is um, you
know, not wanting to use someoneelse's uh business terms.

Michael Hartmann (38:58):
Yeah.
But I so one of the things thatI think is important, and we've
I probably talked about this adnauseum too, is like I do think
it's important to understandthose people, which requires
effort in spending time andprobably asking a lot of
questions, right?
Um I mean, is I know I'velearned a lot from doing that,

(39:19):
like working with people, andthen it helps me when I go to
them.
I think part of it is it justlooks like you're making an
effort to understand, right?
Agree.
Is a big part of building thattrust, trusted relationship.
I mean, what's your take onthat?
Like, is it how important?
How much time do you spenddoing that versus trying to
explain what marketing does?

Charral Izhiman (39:39):
I don't think I do as much explaining as I do
listening.
It's just the nature of it.
I think the more I understandwhat somebody understands, let's
put it that way, um, the betterum the better I am delivering
what I need to deliver, what Ineed to say.
Because if you understand wherethey're starting, what their
baseline is, what they'reinterested in, you kind of find
the solution.
And I think there's a lot to besaid in body language and tone.

(40:01):
Obviously, you're both comingtogether to solve something.
So I I mean, I enjoy doing thiswith the finance, for example,
because what they're interestedin, their perception of
marketing is probably a bit low,I suppose, versus what markets
itself.
And um, but when theyappreciate what you're trying to
do, um, and you can see wherethey're coming from, you find

(40:22):
yourself kind of warming to oneanother and you kind of arrive
at this middle ground and youcollaborate.
So you do that by understandingthem because they are dealing
with difficult numbers all thetime.
It's the whole point of theirjob.
Um, and you're coming to thetable with uh let's just say
with brand customer, lots offeelings and intangible elements
for it that way.
We know how to quantify them,but that's that engagement with

(40:45):
the CFO, for example, wouldn'tbe the time to go, well, you
know, here's the value marketingbrings, you know.
So it understanding them doeshelp the conversation flow
better for sure.
I absolutely agree with you.

Michael Hartmann (40:56):
Yeah, I mean, I think um I I don't think I
think one emphasize your pointabout listening because I think
that is an underrated skill.

Charral Izhiman (41:05):
Yeah, it's not easy.
It's actually not a skill.
It's it's not easy because youwant to reply all the time,
don't you?

Michael Hartmann (41:13):
Yeah, I cannot tell you how many times in my
career I've been told youinterrupt a lot, Michael.
Right?
It's like it's partiallybecause I'm not listening.
And I and I like actually doingthis has really helped me
develop better listening skills.

Charral Izhiman (41:27):
Yeah, I imagine.
Yeah.

Michael Hartmann (41:28):
Well, and it's and it and I should know this
be like for a short, like shortperiod of my time, I was in
sales and I remember goingthrough some training, and and
it's it still sits with me whenI hear people talk about
salespeople, especiallymarketers who want to discount
what they do.
And and um when I think aboutthe best salespeople I've worked
with, whether they're in myorganization or they were

(41:48):
selling to me, they're really,really good at asking good
questions and listening,actively listening.
And when I when I heard that, Iwas like, God, no, these sales
people, all they want to do istalk, talk, talk, talk, talk,
talk, right?
But it's not what they like.
The best ones don't do that.

Charral Izhiman (42:07):
I'm so agree with you, yeah.

Michael Hartmann (42:10):
And I think we can all learn that because it's
uh to some degree we're allselling a little bit, right?

Charral Izhiman (42:15):
Well, yeah, we really are.
I mean, marketing and salesback in the day was all one
thing, it just it and it wascommunication, it was that
simple.
And if you've got the gift ofthe gab, especially if you know
what you're talking about, itwill flow, it's natural.
I've I've I've done thatmyself, and then then the
customer's kind of going, youknow, I'm getting a bit bored
here, you're just talking at me.
So, yeah, I think um learningto ask better questions and just

(42:36):
to you know deduce what youneed to know is is uh obviously
the way forward.

Michael Hartmann (42:42):
Yeah, so something we've talked about in
you and I talked about this, Ithink, before, and I've talked
about it on the show, the theother episodes like how
important do you think, or howvaluable and important do you
think it is for people to spendtime um with people in other
parts of the organization tounderstand their roles, like so
sales, customer support orsuccess, maybe even finance.
What's your take on that?

Charral Izhiman (43:03):
I think it should be mandatory that people
rotate.
I think we would all be so muchbetter at collaborating if we
did that.
Once you warp in someone else'sshoes, you really do go, oh,
okay.
Uh, when I do this or say that,I'm not really paying attention
to this and that on their end.
So I do think it helps.
And the reason why I appreciateit is because I've done a bit
of BD, a bit of sales, a bit ofcustomer service, you know, in

(43:24):
my young years.
Yeah, and it's changed myperspective.
And uh just recently I did itagain.
I thought, let me step outsideand just kind of see things.
And I was like, oh, okay.
Some of the advice we givedoesn't really work, it's not
actually gonna work.
So let's let's be morepractical.
And I think it strengthens yourrelationship uh with the people
you're trying to help in yourorganization.
So I I really think it shouldbe mandatory.

(43:46):
Uh, it would uh make thingswork a lot smoother.

Michael Hartmann (43:51):
Okay, well, so no, I totally agree.
And I think my short time insales completely 180 degrees
changed my view of the role,right?
And and I think it's in andI've worked at organizations
that it was more or lessmandatory to at least spend a
day twice a year with somebodyin the people in another

(44:12):
organization.
And I got value out of that,like working with production
people.
It was like actually producingwhatever we were delivering, as
well as customers to supportsales.
Finance.
I mean, I think it's it's ait's a really valuable thing.
Um, I was actually disappointedwhen they kind of removed that
as a requirement.
Um, because it felt like aburden when the people would be

(44:36):
spending time with us, right?
And I had to like I had tocheck myself.
We go, yeah.
So um well, okay, so let'smaybe dial this back as kind of
wrap up here.
So if if you could give acouple of key points to the to
our audience who are mostly opspeople, um, what are some things
that you would recommend thatthey do to try to help elevate

(44:58):
um not only the ops function butmarketing in general uh to the
rest of their organization?

Charral Izhiman (45:06):
I definitely think communication is part of
it.
I think instead of expecting umanybody you engage with really
to understand marketing, don'tstart there.
It would be what I want toreally say.
I would say understand wherethey are from and then uh lure
them in, attract them, and anduse metaphors and ways to
explain things.
So simplify um yourunderstanding of marketing so

(45:30):
that they can meet you there.
I do think that's reallyimportant.
I think it is our job toeducate non-marketing
professionals, but we're notgoing to do it by literally
teaching them marketing per se.
It's more, it's more like finda way for them to appreciate
something so they can trust youfurther.
And to the point on rotation, Ido think it's really helpful.
I think if you were to, youknow, to step in someone else's
shoes, including finance, youknow, that was a difficult one,

(45:52):
I imagine.
I would probably be terrifiedin the finance department.
But I think it's worth, yeah.
I mean, I'm not a numbersperson like that.
You know, I like my creativityand communication, all those
things.
But I think if you were toappreciate where they're coming
from, you can appreciate thepushback and you could
appreciate what they need fromyou.
So it's just been able to dothat.

Michael Hartmann (46:13):
I mean, I recommend um like in my coaching
with new managers who are maybemanaging a budget for the first
time or have responsibility forpitching new projects or ideas
internally to go spend time withyour finance partner or your
CFO, depending on theorganization.
Because if you get them on yourside, makes like essentially

(46:35):
they're the ones who are gonnaeveryone's gonna look to them
and go, like, does this makesense financially before we
invest, you know, time andeffort and money?
And I think it's well worth it.
I encourage all the people Icoach who are in there, in fact,
all the people who have everworked for me over the last 10,
15 years, 20 years.
I feel like learn the basics offinance.
Yeah, you will never regret it.

Charral Izhiman (46:57):
That's exactly it, yeah.

Michael Hartmann (47:00):
So um, it's maybe less obvious.
And for those people who arenot numbers, I'm more numbers
oriented.
I was trained as an engineer,so it becomes a little more
natural for me.
Yeah.
Um, and so, but even so, right,there's a different way that
they think about numbers than weeven do in marketing or in
engineering.
I mean, it's just a very it's adifferent mindset.
And to your point, right, ifyou understand how they think

(47:22):
about the numbers, it will helpyou in how you build your case
and represent your numbers whenyou're trying to, especially if
you're trying to get investment.

Charral Izhiman (47:32):
Absolutely.
And I think, you know, uhMichael, I when I uh when I
wrote the title for this book,it was different at the
beginning, all the way through.
And right towards the end, Iwas like, ah, I feel like I need
to change it.
And I went back to movementbecause every all the material
was pointing towards that.
And I think what's reallydawned on me now is you need to

(47:55):
be able to move things forwardand to actually be able to
report impact and progress andall those things.
And if you're getting stuck,and I think marketing
professionals do or teams getstuck, very often it does
happen.
It's easy to get stuck in yourspace.
I think you have to askyourself an honest question: go,
am I moving things forward?
Am I helping?
Am I creating impact?
So I think it's reallyimportant to always ask yourself

(48:16):
that.
Um, because it probably meansyou'll be growing, you'll be out
of your comfort zone, andyou're gonna go, all right, I'm
wasting time here.
What could I be really doingthat would move the needle or
would help somebody?
So I do think it having thementality that movement inspires
progress is probably reallyhelpful uh for a creative team.

Michael Hartmann (48:33):
Yeah, and I and I think um one of the things
I see from a lot of marketerswhen they get annoyed, like, oh,
these people don't understand,is like sometimes the the
questions and the push that youthe pressure you're feeling from
them are actually reasonablekinds of things, right?
Because of their perspective,right?
Are you moving the businessforward?
I think that's a great um agreat way of thinking about it.

(48:55):
Right.
And and kind of checking like,am I really doing that?
Love it.
Anyway.
This has been a funconversation.
I've really enjoyed it.
Um, I think it's gonna help alot of people.
Um, if folks want to learn moreabout the book or what you're
doing or or to continue theconversation, what's the best
way for them to do that withyou?

Charral Izhiman (49:15):
Um you can go straight to my website,
themarketing dashedmovement.com.
All my details.

Michael Hartmann (49:21):
Marketing Dash Movement.
Fantastic.
Love it.
I appreciate it.
Again, thank you so much.
It's been a lot of fun.
Thanks for those who arelistening or watching, and we
appreciate your support.
If you have ideas for topics orguests, or you want to be a
guest, you can reach out toNaomi, Mike, or me, and we'd be
happy to get the ball rolling.
Till next time.
Bye, everybody.

Charral Izhiman (49:41):
Bye bye.