February 20, 2023 • 50 mins
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In this episode, we talk about Marketing Chief of Staff roles with Chloe Washington, Ragen Dodson, and Jim Williams. Chloe Washington is currently Chief of Staff to the CMO at Hubspot. Prior to joining Hubspot, Chloe has held several project management and operations (both Sales and Marketing) roles, and some leadership roles. She is also PMP certified. Ragen Dodson is currently Director of Marketing Operations and Analytics at Axonius. Prior to joining Axonius, Ragen has held several Marketing Ops roles, Marketing and Finance roles, and she had her own agency. Jim Williams is currently the CMO of Uptempo.io. Jim has held previous CMO and marketing leadership role - including Eloqua - as well as roles in public relations.
Tune in to hear:
- What the definition of what a marketing Chief of Staff is.
- How is a marketing Chief of Staff role different from “traditional” Marketing Ops, and what our guests see as the major differences in scope and skills.
- How this kind of role fits into a career path for marketing ops.
- What skills and experience are most important for a CoS and why?
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Michael Hartmann (00:00):
Hello everyone.
(00:00):
Welcome to another episode ofOpsCast, brought to you by
MarketingOps.com, powered by theMO Pros.
I'm your host, Michael Hartmann.
Joined today by, Only oneco-host again, Mike Rizzo.
So Mike, we are definitely gonnaneed to get Naomi back on one of
these days.
She'll be back soon, I'm sure ofit, but I'm glad to be here.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I'm excited for this one, soI want just dive right into it.
(00:21):
Um, gonna get into a topic that,um, I'm interested in, I think
hopefully our, our, youlisteners are as well, but it's
about marketing chief of staffroles, so joining us to talk
about this today.
Our several guests we've got,first we've got Chloe
Washington, who's currently thechief of staff to the CMO at
HubSpot.
And prior to joining HubSpot,she held several project
(00:41):
management operations, bothsales and marketing ops roles
and some leadership roles.
Uh, she's also a PMP certified.
We also have Ragen Dodson,currently director of Marketing
Operations and Analytics atAxonius.
Prior to joining Axonius, Reaganhad, se has several, um, has had
several marketing ops roles,marketing and finance roles in,
she's had her own agency.
(01:03):
And last but not least is JimWilliams, who's currently the
CMO of Uptempo.io.
Uh, Jim has held previous CMOand marketing leadership roles,
including at Eloqua as well asroles in public relations.
So thank you all for joining ustoday.
Hi.
Happy to be here.
Thank you.
Jim Williams (01:20):
So happy to be.
Yep.
Delighted.
Michael Hartmann (01:24):
So I think it's gonna be funny, Jim, we're
gonna have to talk sometime.
Like I think when you were atEloqua, it was like right around
the time prior to the Oracleacquisition when I was still, I
was an early, I was a customerback then, right before that.
So offline.
We can talk about that.
I hope that's a good thing.
No, no.
I, I like, uh, I still have, uh,for, for our long time
listeners, we did a, we did anepisode about a year ago.
(01:47):
Mike and I got on and justriffed on how bad sales people
were at selling to Marketing Opsfolks, but I have a really good
experience for the person who,who I worked with at Eloqua back
in those days, long time ago.
Jim Williams (01:59):
Yeah.
Michael Hartmann (02:00):
All right.
So I, like I said, I'm, I'm veryinterested in, in this and why,
um, and kind of what I, why Ithink I'm interested.
I've been seeing, at leastanecdotally on my side, you
know, more of the emergence of.
Marketing chief of staff typeroles.
Um, and I believe, I like, oneof the challenges we always talk
about here is like, what arethe, what are the career paths
that makes sense for marketingops professionals?
(02:24):
Um, cuz even up until recently,there just weren't even many
roles beyond director or seniordirector levels.
So very few VP level even.
So why don't we, like, maybe wecan start, and Chloe, since
you're sitting in that roletoday, why don't we start with
you like, what is, like, howwould you define marketing chief
of staff role?
Like, what does it entail?
What does it not include?
Chloe Washington (02:44):
Happy to.
Yeah.
This is the first question Iget.
Like, you're chief of staff.
What, what does that even mean?
Uh, chief of staff, you're astrategic ops and planning
leader.
you are an operational thoughtleader.
You are a person that evensometimes when you don't, you
know, you're feeling a littleinsecure about decisions.
You're making decisions on thefly.
You are the right hand man orwoman to the CMO.
Uh, the role gets confused a lotwith executive assistant.
(03:06):
It is not, those are two veryimportant roles, but very
separate roles.
I work very closely with theCMOs executive assistant.
We are.
Uh, I like to say a dream team.
We work very well together, butour roles are very, very
different.
It's not a siloed role at all.
You're talking to everyonewithin the company.
You have to get, that's the onlyway that you're going to be
successful in this role.
It is definitely someone that isable to manage up well and gets
(03:30):
to talk to a lot of people atall levels and try and remember
a million things at.
Michael Hartmann (03:36):
Just curious.
So, um, we're, I think we'regonna get into some more of the
specifics of the role, but like,Jim, I'm assuming, just given
where kinda what your, your,your experience as a CMO and,
and, um, kind of the types ofcustomers you're selling to,
right?
That you probably run into thesemore often than, than maybe some
of the rest of us.
Are you seeing any trends inthis?
Am I off from that standpoint?
Jim Williams (03:58):
No, we're seeing a big trend.
It was actually one of the firstthings that I asked about when I
came into the role at uptempo.
We sell marketing operationssoftware, and I kept seeing this
role of marketing chief of staffor chief of staff to the CMO
popping up in, in conversations,sales, conversations,
opportunities, et cetera.
It honestly was not a title thatI had seen a lot of over my
(04:21):
career.
I think it's this, uh, risingrole.
In fact, we.
Last fall, November 30th, we, wedid a, a webinar where we just
got, uh, a handful of marketingchief of staff together and had
a conversation very similar tothe one we're having today.
And, uh, people came out of thewoodwork.
We had like, you know, a, a lotmore registrations than I ever
would've imagined, um, becausepeople are really curious about
(04:44):
the role.
And, and I think, you know, thisseems maybe somewhat intuitive.
The role of marketing haschanged so much in the last 20
years, and what a CMO needs tomanage and the skillsets and the
people and the tech and theinsights and the data that, um,
this role has become now acritical factor in making sure
(05:06):
that the, you know, the plansthat are created and rolled out
to the organization, which mucha plum is actually being
followed and executed andcarried.
and the resources necessary tocarry it out are aligned
properly.
It's just, it's too much for oneperson to do in, in the role of
Cmmo and all of the CM O'Sdirect reports are all managing
their own function.
(05:27):
So you have this kind of centralglue in the chief of staff role.
Michael Hartmann (05:32):
Yeah, I, so what are the ways I think about
it, and maybe this, uh, I'llthrow this, this out there, but
I think of it as one of thefunctions seems to me to be, um,
if there's a.
A project or an initiative thatis needed from the CMO level
that doesn't have a natural fitto what, what like a traditional
(05:52):
marketing leadership role.
Um, they're like, this would bethe perfect kind of thing that
a, a chief of staff would takeon.
Right.
So to your, to your point,Chloe, right, it's not just like
administrative, like, it wouldbe like, you'd be responsible
for, like, are you responsiblefor like, I'll call it special
projects or things like that,that don't, wouldn't otherwise
fit into somebody else's?
Chloe Washington (06:12):
definitely strategic projects are a big
part of my day-to-day, and a lotof it isn't just the CMO telling
you what needs to be done.
It's you hearing from the restof the marketing work and
telling the cmo, Hey, I'm doingthis, this needs to be taken
Michael Hartmann (06:23):
care of.
Ah, okay.
Goes a little bit both ways.
Mm-hmm.
makes sense.
That makes sense.
All right.
So, um, yeah.
One of the things I think, uh,as we talked about this, right,
and probably our listeners aregoing through is like, okay, I'm
in marketing ops, or I'm inrevenue ops.
I've got a little better ideanow of what a chief of staff
role might include, but likewhat are the, like what do you
(06:44):
think of as the differences inscope and responsibility for,
say, I almost hate to saytraditional marketing
operations, but marketingoperations and a chief of staff
role.
Reagan, maybe you, you can shareyour thoughts on.
Regan Dodson (07:03):
Yeah, for sure.
I think it, it stems from howbig your company is, right?
Because a lot of times, likewith axons, we are, you know,
emerging and we really don'thave, I mean, we have 50
marketers, um, but we're not ata place right now to have a
chief of staff role.
(07:23):
So, um, with that being said,there's, there's.
I like what you said, um, Jim,about the glue component because
that's exactly what our CMO toldme today as I was prepping for
this podcast was.
That the chief of staff rolewould kind of be like glue.
So what we have right nowcurrently at Axons is we have a
(07:46):
coordinator that rolls up to ourchief marketing officer, and
then we have me, um, thedirector of marketing operations
and analytics.
And so those two pieces are likeglue for him, whereas my role is
more so like very strategic,like Chloe was saying.
Um, you know, we have to beoperational thought leaders.
We have to kind.
(08:07):
Gather all the thoughts, um,from, you know, the rest of the
marketing team and kind oftranslate that into CMO
language, right, or vice versato the rest of the team.
There's a lot of times where,you know, this role, I would say
it is.
Kind of like a chief of staffrole, you know, in our company
size.
(08:28):
But this role, you know, has totouch every facet of marketing.
And so we have to haveunderstanding of every single
thing that goes on.
And a lot of times you find thatthe marketers feel a little bit
more comfortable coming to thechief of staff or director of
marketing operations.
Um, instead of just going rightto the CMO.
I don't know, Chloe, if you, ifyou kind of feel that, or, uh, a
(08:51):
hundred percent.
Yep.
Yeah, for sure.
And so it, it seems like we takeon a lot of the burden, um,
before it gets to the cmo.
And, and my goal is to try toaccomplish all of the, the, the
task and things at hand and dealwith, um, you know, like our
external stakeholders, like ourbusiness operations team and our
finance team and all that stuff.
(09:12):
So it's handled before it getsto the cmo and that I can kind
of create a process.
Um, but yeah.
That's kind of where we're at.
But I, I think for anorganization like HubSpot or a
Fortune 500, I think you have tohave a chief of staff role, but
it's definitely going toencompass a lot of like the
coordination and the strategyoperations of such.
Mike Rizzo (09:36):
It makes a ton of sense to me.
I, I love hearing the three sortof different, uh, the same
similarities across all three ofyou, but like, just where, where
you're currently focused, likewhere your attention is, uh, and
the perspective.
Uh, it's funny, like it echoes,I don't know if funny is the
right word for it, but for me itechoes community.
(09:57):
right?
Yeah.
Like Chloe and Reagan and Jim,like everything you're saying is
like, there's glue, there'strust, there's transparency,
there's building this rapportacross like all these different
individuals.
And so like this chief of stafffunction is like, Hey, I have to
take these inputs from theexecutives, and I also have to
be seen as this trusted advisorfor the rest of the organization
(10:21):
to try to figure out like wherewe could go next, right?
Or what's happening.
And by taking both of thoseinputs to try to translate that
to something that, uh, a chiefmarketing officer or a CEO for
that matter might want tointerpret or hear, uh, is a, is
a very special skillset thathas.
sort of be developed over time.
(10:42):
Mm-hmm.
and HHartmann and I, we werevery fortunate at, uh, summer
camp last summer to have a CMOin the room.
And everybody went through thisexercise of like trying to take
geek speak, um, and, and, andput it in front of a CMO and
say, do you understand what I'mtrying to say to you?
And
Michael Hartmann (11:00):
um, it was a very humbling experience.
Mike Rizzo (11:03):
It was this wonderful, wonderful experience.
Um, no, it was
Michael Hartmann (11:06):
fantastic.
Mike Rizzo (11:07):
Yeah.
And, and so I, I love that it'slike it so much of what you were
saying, the three of you, um,really makes like a ton of
sense.
And, and the first time, like Ihad never even heard of this
idea of like becoming a chief ofstaff from a marketing ops
perspective, uh, until like,really it was like the last nine
(11:29):
months or so when HHartmann andI started talking about it a
little bit, and I think hebrought it up.
Um, but gosh, it makes a lot ofsense, right?
When like Reagan, as you'resaying, you have visibility
across the entire sort ofinfrastructure of what's going
on, all the pipes, so to speak.
Yep.
and, and that like, because ofthat visibility, we always say,
and I find myself often sayingto folks that I'm mentoring in
(11:52):
the community, you've got areally unique opportunity to
start poking holes in things orstart asking questions and say,
Hey, I saw this anomaly.
Do you think we could do this,this, or that?
Um, and gosh, that really makesyou the strategic leader, but
it's not often that theexecutive is coming down to the
marketing ops professional and.
(12:13):
Hey, we have a go-to-marketinitiative coming, right?
Um, I, I don't even for you,Reagan, I'm not sure how much
it's happening, but Jim, maybeyou can jump in here too.
Like, Hey, we're gonna try toenter a totally new market.
How do we do that?
Like mm-hmm.
I feel like you're responsible,Jim for Yeah.
Coming up with the how to dothat before you ever go to the
(12:34):
marketing op person.
So I definitely wanna hear fromboth of you on it.
Jim Williams (12:38):
Uh, yeah.
So, I mean, I, I'll jump in, butI think that part of.
this fundamental conversation isabout this, this, this gap, I'm
gonna call it the gap inmarketing operations that we see
all the time and the gap inmarketing operations is,
operational marketing, uh,that's the best way to put it.
(13:00):
Right.
for some reason, there'smarketing operations, and if you
think about the term operations,like you're talking about
everything, the people, time,resources, dollars, all the
stuff that makes marketinghappen.
Mm-hmm.
Yep.
All too often marketing are, uh,uh, operations focus are
focused.
on MarTech sometimes.
(13:21):
Mm-hmm.
like within MarTech, 90% of thatis marketing automation within
MarTech.
Right?
In the meantime, you have a CMOand the CMO gets handed a pile
of dollars from investors andthey say, you need to enter this
market, generate this pipeline,uh, you know, have this many
wins, hit this revenue target,et cetera.
All that's gonna be done byhaving a strategic.
(13:45):
with operating objectives, withdollars associated with teams
that don't do work streams inorder to execute.
Mm-hmm.
that continuum largely isignored by marketing operations
until you get to just theexecute and measure type thing.
And so I think sometimes CMOsare struggling.
to get answers about thebeginning part of that you know,
(14:08):
the, the beginning part of thatprocess.
Okay.
We had a plan.
We have these objectives, wehave these KPIs.
How are we doing against those?
Are we funding the rightinitiatives or not?
Do we need to shift resourcesone way or another?
That's not really the domain ofmany marketing operations folks,
and so therefore there's thisbig gap, and that gap I think,
is being filled by this verystrategic chief of staff role.
(14:30):
Mm.
Mike Rizzo (14:31):
And I think, you know, to Reagan's point, I think
there's, uh, a lot ofopportunity for a marketing
operations professional to growinto that role.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Uh, it certainly shouldn'thappen overnight, but Reagan,
uh, you know, how's it going foryou all as it relates to sort
of, I think the last time youand I talked, there were plenty
of new growing initiatives, uh,happening at your organization
(14:53):
and you were really excitedabout.
Um, but I would love to hearsort of like this idea of like,
how, how are you all tacklingthat gap or trying to jump it?
Regan Dodson (15:03):
at first when the last time I talked to you, it
was crazy.
Um, revamped our wholeattribution model and our system
and brought on Acadia at thesame time.
During that, Jim, I know youlike that Um, and so that was a
lot of change management.
Um, you know, and rolling thatout to the rest of the marketing
(15:25):
team.
Um, you know, just like yousaid, Jim, like we were viewed
before I, before I got to Axonsand took this position, we were
viewed as marketing.
Just marketing apps just handlesthe tech.
and I guess I've just never, myrole has always been no
marketing ops.
You're a marketing ops leaderand you need to handle
(15:45):
everything.
And so when I got in, I waslike, I can see this gap and I
can see this gap.
And I'm like, I have to fix allof this.
Or we're, we're, I could justsee disaster.
And so that's what I've beendoing and I think it's been well
received.
I think, um, you know, uh, we'regrowing so fast.
Um, we haven't had time to justsit down and do some
(16:07):
foundational work, and I thinkI'm, I'm, I'm doing that and
our, my team is doing that.
And at first it was kind oflike, why is marketing ops and
now in charge of our, ourbudget?
Why is marketing ops like now incharge of, you know, our tech
stack and procurement and, um,our data, our, we, we own our
marketing data, um, andanalytics.
(16:28):
And so I think that was aneye-opener, but now I think our
marketers are like, You'remaking my job so much more
easier because now I can justfocus on Yes.
Creative marketing whilemarketing ops is running behind
the scenes.
So that's kind of where we're atnow.
Mike Rizzo (16:42):
I love that.
I, I just want to throw in onelast little thing, and I think
HHartmann wants to pull me backoff of this for a
Michael Hartmann (16:47):
minute.
No, no, no.
I like, I, there's a th there'sa thread there that I was pick,
I was like, I wanted to followup on too, so Carry on.
I'm just, I'm just gonna share
Mike Rizzo (16:56):
that, uh, I had just gotten off a, a conversation
with, Marketing ops professionalwho works at, uh, one of the
larger chat organizations outthere.
Uh, I'll spare the name of allof them, but, um, the thing that
this individual shared with meis I think what makes somebody
excellent at their role is beingable to take the request, uh,
(17:17):
for whether it's a CMO or acampaign ops person, somebody on
the marketing team or sales forthat matter, and saying, great,
I love that you want to do that,but here's how we up-level.
Uh, and here's, and here's howit makes, here's how we make it
better, right?
Um, and I think that, again,that takes time to learn all the
intricacies of the tech stackthat you have, uh, but is also
(17:38):
just another prime example ofwhen somebody's really
passionate about that function,the marketing ops function, how
it lends itself very quickly tothis sort of enablement, uh,
strategic leader opportunity,uh, so that you can take
somebody's request and say, yes,we can do that.
But here, where we could go nextwith it.
You know?
Did you think about thisopportunity?
(17:58):
So anyway, I thought that wasreally.
No, that's
Chloe Washington (18:01):
great.
You're enabling like, I feellike I enable marketers to
market.
It's not just about the externaltech stack.
What's the internal tech stacklike to Jim's point?
Mm-hmm.
all the planning, all the thingsthat we're doing.
They can't use spreadsheets andpieces of paper and post-it
notes, like how do we make thisseamless and allow them to get
back to their day jobs, if youwill.
Like all of that planning isimportant, but then the
execution is more important andhow can you enable them to
(18:23):
execute more flawless.
Michael Hartmann (18:25):
Yeah, like I'm a big fan of like taking that, I
mean the one thing that might,you know, like talked about is
like results and, you know,getting, but I think there's
something about simplificationtoo.
So I think there's a lot ofmarketing teams that I've worked
with, um, even if we thought wehad a decent process, that tends
to be over complicated or thetech tech stack is complicated.
(18:45):
So I think part of that advisingand providing guidance is also
about how do we take this ideaand not only make it work and
work effectively.
Do it in a way that is,especially if it's something
new, I'm like, try somethingnew.
Do it as in a simplest way youcan, so that you can learn from
it quickly.
I think there's a real value inbeing able to move quickly that
is undervalued in a lot ofplaces.
(19:05):
Um, okay.
So I want, going back to thisthread, I, I, I feel like my
question about like is, does,would this kind of role, chief
of staff role make sense for amarketing ops person to move
into in the right situation, itsounds like Yes.
The case.
I didn't hear anything that sortof countered that, but happy to
hear that feedback.
But it feels like, especiallybased on Jim, what you said,
(19:29):
like it feel like there's someskill gaps maybe that you see
that most marketing ops folkswould tend to have or that they
aren't, um, either they have thegaps or they're not ex, they're
not actually showing that, thatthey have the skills that are
needed to kind of be in thatrole.
Like I picked up.
Finance, which Mike knows, likeI could get on a soapbox about
the importance of the fight.
(19:49):
yeah.
Understanding finance for awhile, but, but I think like
communicating with people well,like finding the, like what do
you see as like from yourexperience with marketing ops
people who are historicallymostly about MarTech and
campaign ops?
I would argue those are the twomain things that most teams do
like to, what are the skillsthat they, you think?
(20:10):
Benefit from learning?
No, only in that role, but alsoif they aspire to something like
a chief of staff role.
Yeah,
Jim Williams (20:16):
it's, it's, it's a great question.
I actually, I, I have a, I havea comment on this, but I'm gonna
defer to Chloe because we, we'vehad so many conversations over
the last few weeks that areexactly on this, and she, she's
got this nailed, she's got thisanswer nailed much better than I
do.
Perfect.
So I'll let it defer.
But just because you brought upfinance, cuz I feel like it's
something we've kind of talkedabout here, but have skirted.
(20:40):
I, I think the relationshipbetween, it's not just within
marketing and points of frictionthat a chief of staff has to
kind of manage and, and planaround.
It's definitely points offriction outside of marketing
and one of the prime ones iswith finance.
Mm-hmm.
you know, just like.
You know, we were ripping onEloco or whatever, 15 years ago,
(21:01):
right?
The point of friction then wasbetween marketing and sales, and
that's why we built this textact as you have a contract
between these two functions thatgoverns the relationship.
No such system exists reallybetween marketing and finance,
and because dollars are thelifeblood of marketing that
needs to be figured out.
(21:21):
It.
again, just so you go back andyou compared that relationship
with sales, right?
Where its like, Hey, here's abunch of leads.
We're gonna send youspreadsheets full of leads.
Remember that?
Like how great that life beforeMarTech.
Oh yeah.
That is exactly the state of arttoday between financial teams
and marketing teams.
It is.
Dozens, sometimes hundreds ofspreadsheets going back and
(21:43):
forth.
Mm-hmm.
as long reconciliation process.
It's always delayed.
Nobody even knows how muchmoney's in the budget.
And every single marketer ishaving a conversation right now
with the cfo F about the budget,about getting everything out of
the budget.
So I think that friction pointbetween marketing finance is,
uh, is a big driver of this rolefor sure.
(22:03):
that I'll, I'll Chloe maybe talka little bit about the skillsets
required
Chloe Washington (22:07):
for the role.
Yeah, no, you're spot on.
The trust and you know, I thinkthat sometimes silence is
mistaken for they're not doingsomething or they're hiding
something from one side or theother.
Having that person, like I havea finance contact, we talk every
single day, and to Reagan'spoint, Acadia has helped.
that immensely like thespreadsheet.
Life is real and you need to beable to, when I think about a
(22:28):
chief of staff versus someonethat's a marketing ops person, a
lot of it's personality.
Being able to push back.
Being able to push back and talkto the C F O, the CMO, being
able to give them.
Hey, here's what's really goingon.
And you know, when we weretalking earlier about the
skillset, I think grouptherapist is one like a big part
of being chief of staff love.
Like you gotta take it and heareverybody's everything, all the
(22:51):
complaining, and then you haveto also know what does the CMO
need to know out of that?
What is relevant versus you justlistening and taking it in?
What is actually a problem thatneeds to be solved, whether it
be financial or something withinthe marketing team.
I mean, a big thing that I heardmy first year at hubs, I can't
do this in a spreadsheet.
It's gonna take me 10 hours togive, get you that one answer.
I can't do this.
I don't have time to do this.
(23:12):
And to their point, they, theydon't have time to do this.
We're trying to execute.
And that's one
Michael Hartmann (23:16):
and that's one time, right?
They just, you do that, it'sexpected to be done on a regular
Chloe Washington (23:20):
basis.
Exactly.
Absolutely.
But also a chief of staff issometimes like, no, you do have
to do it.
You do have to stop what you'redoing and do this thing related
to finance or not to someone.
you know, you kind of have tohave backbone to be able to do
this.
Because I think a lot of timeswhen you're, yeah, when you're,
especially when you'reimplementing something or you're
taking something away.
Mm-hmm.
(23:40):
from the team as they view it.
So, you know, the first sixmonths, who is this person?
What do they wanna do?
Why are they taking this fromme?
Me?
And then thank God, like, Idon't know how I could do this
without you.
Thankful for this tool, thankfulfor this thing.
So you have to be able to like,alright, they'll like me later.
They don't have to like me nowif I'm being efficient and
really helping them.
you can't take it.
Yes.
Regan Dodson (24:00):
Oh,
Mike Rizzo (24:01):
so
Michael Hartmann (24:01):
true.
Yeah.
Regan Dodson (24:02):
Uhhuh But you really have to like this role,
Chloe, you really encompassedall of the, the traits like you
have to be, you have to have astrong backbone for sure in this
role.
Michael Hartmann (24:14):
So, uh, so like something to what you, when
you just said that, um, it feelslike an important skill, which I
think is also important forsalespeople.
It's most people who have neverdone sales don't think about,
but you have to be really goodat asking good questions.
Is that like, do you think youhave to be a good.
Because a lot of conflict I seein organizations has to do with
people talking past each othervery often in agreement.
(24:37):
I like to call it violentagreement.
Like they're just Like they'rein a very loud conversation, but
they're actually agreeing.
But just using different words.
Chloe Washington (24:44):
Yeah.
You have to get to firstprinciples, you have to clear
the fog completely and get tothe why from all sides.
Interesting.
Regan Dodson (24:52):
That's the key word.
The.
Mm-hmm.
Mike Rizzo (24:56):
Yeah.
Why do you want to send thatemail?
Yeah.
Right?
Michael Hartmann (25:00):
Why?
Yeah.
I think that's it.
What was it?
Is it, there's some, uh, I don'tknow if it's, I don't know if I
called out.
I've heard, but somebody talked,I've worked with, talked about,
uh, there's like this approachto getting to the bottom
something.
It's like the five why's.
Have you heard of this?
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, you've, okay, so if youcan ask why like five
Mike Rizzo (25:16):
times and eventually get to the, it's like, you know,
like when you were a kid and youjust kept saying it's a toddler
approach.
Regan Dodson (25:22):
Yeah.
Toddler
Jim Williams (25:23):
approach.
Well, why, well, tell me why.
I love about, I love how thetoddler approaches describes the
standard sales discovery method.
Michael Hartmann (25:35):
Uh, no.
I, so I like total aside, but Iremember like when I first had
kids, I.
there's a whole lot I can applyto like raising kids to Yeah.
Dealing with people in aprofessional environment, cuz a
lot of people end up being likea lot oft kids and Yeah.
So, yeah.
So,
Mike Rizzo (25:51):
and, and it's just managing your own responses to,
you know, to not just yourchildren, but to your
stakeholders, to yourcolleagues.
Right.
Um, I, I distinctly rememberearlier in my career, like being
hyper offended when somebodywould.
like talk badly about the techstack.
(26:12):
It's like, yeah.
As if I somehow owned the tool,like it was mine, you know?
Yeah.
like
Michael Hartmann (26:16):
as if I was the creator
Mike Rizzo (26:18):
of HubSpot or whatever tool I was using.
Right.
Totally.
And then, you know, like as youevolve in the role, you're like,
oh wait, like.
I, that's not, I don't own that.
Like I own the responsibility ofmaking it do what it's supposed
to do, but like, I'm not here todefend like the tech stack.
And so yeah, that's a skill thatyou have to learn for sure.
(26:38):
Yeah.
Maybe it was just me though.
Chloe Washington (26:40):
No, totally.
I, I'm aligned with you Okay.
Can't take it personally likeReagan was saying.
No,
Regan Dodson (26:45):
you can't.
And another thing is too, islike, I think you know, the CMO.
Has the responsibility of makingsure that he or she communicates
the role of whether it's thedirector of marketing ops or the
chief of staff, or, or, orhowever that that is.
I feel like that causes a lot oftension with the rest of the
(27:08):
marketing team cuz they have noidea what marketing ops really
is.
I mean, we know, but like, likeyou said, everyone just defaults
too.
They just run the tech stack.
So I think it's the C o'sresponsibility to make sure they
relay that message and the whybehind it.
Michael Hartmann (27:23):
Makes sense.
Yeah,
Jim Williams (27:24):
I, I, I would agree with that.
I think that, I think marketingops is particularly challenged
because of the scope andcomplexity of the tech stack
that marketing runs compared toeverywhere else.
Mm-hmm.
right?
I, I don't think, like some itguy in my org gets upset if you
complain about the e r P systemor something, you know what I
mean?
Like Right.
(27:44):
But it's cause it's doing asingular thing.
But, um, but that, that is, it'sa significant challenge and.
It's, you know, if, if you're ina board meeting, no one cares.
Yeah.
About how many apps you have,how vertically integrated there
is, the data flows from one tono.
Nobody cares about they eventhings like, you know, oh, we're
working on this nurturingprogram.
(28:05):
We come on do scoring program,and oh, we started using the
intent-based data and thattriggers this camp.
Like, why?
It's the same as you said, fivewise.
Why?
Why are you doing that?
Why are you doing that?
What they wanna get back to is,You have, we have these growth
targets and we funded you at Xamount, and tell me what is the
return you're getting on thatfunding Now, break it down,
right against each of theseprograms.
(28:26):
What return are you getting inthose programs, in these
campaigns that support theprograms?
What return, what channel?
Like we're trying to get to thatand when I, I keep harping on
finance, but when they're, allof the systems to execute that
program are completelydisconnected from a budget.
There is no return oninvestment.
There's no why.
Regan Dodson (28:46):
Well, look, look at you advertising Acaia.
Yeah,
Jim Williams (28:51):
It's a challenge.
Right?
So that's, that's whatinvestment care about.
They're just, they're moneypeople.
Michael Hartmann (28:55):
Well, so you're getting at something
though lot though.
So this, there's a little bitof, Mike talked about, uh, when
we were at summer camping, howhaving that CMO sort of really
listened to some analysis orpitch like, and getting this.
Uh, getting her perspective onhow she perceived it and what it
really like was really, reallyinteresting.
(29:15):
It was hard, but I think, um,kind of one of the things you're
getting at Jim, that I think ismaybe another challenge for
people who would wanna move intothis role is that you're
expected to be therepresentative of the cmo right?
In, in meetings where the CMOcan't be there.
So, uh, I'm curious.
A, is that correct?
(29:35):
I'm, I think my assumption'sright, but if it's not, somebody
can jump in and clarify it.
But, um, how, like, how, how doyou go about like, doing that?
Like what's the process whereyou get that comfortable?
Cause I assume there's, there'slike this trust between those
two, like the CMO and the chiefof staff, or if it's marketing
and then second maybe, um, Whatdo you think is important in
(29:58):
terms of building that trust sothat you can be that viewed as
that representative?
Uh, Reagan, maybe you start, Idon't know, whoever wants to
take it.
Hmm.
Regan Dodson (30:11):
I, I'm, I'm passing it to you.
Ok, That's fair.
That's fair.
I think
Chloe Washington (30:19):
it's a hundred percent.
You know, when we were talkingearlier about building those
relationships, the, the firstand foremost relationship you
have to build is with the CMO.
Like, I can confidently say thatKip Trust.
We have conversations about it.
Especially when I started, youknow, that's something I'm like,
oh, I'm new here.
It's, I work fully, remotely.
I don't wanna mess anything up.
Right?
I might know what I'm doing withops, but I don't know, at that
(30:39):
time, I didn't know HubSpot andmm-hmm.
That was a conversation that youhave to have upfront.
How much do you trust me inthese 90 days?
How, what's put a dollar amounton it?
What decisions can I make?
Right now that I'm not gonnalose my job for.
And then you take it from there,right?
Like you really, it starts tobecome organic.
Like you have to have thoseconversations, even going back
to the trust, like I hear itfrom all sides.
(31:01):
I tell my boss, Hey, okay, hereare the 10 things I'm hearing
from marketing.
I can do five.
What are the five?
Are we aligned so that when I'min conversations that you're not
or you're in conversations thatI'm not, that we're aligned as a
unit.
Communication is so key in thisrole.
It is not one of those.
You open your laptop and you sitthere quietly all day if that's
what you're looking for.
Chief of staff is not for you.
(31:22):
Yeah, it sounds like,
Jim Williams (31:22):
sorry, what job is that?
Yeah, Right, right.
Michael Hartmann (31:27):
Right.
But it sounds like what you dois like, you have to have really
sort of, I was gonna say blunt,but that's not like very
explicit conversations aboutlike, what, like, here's what I
think I can go to, how I, howyou feel.
Am I right?
Right.
And then, right.
And then recognizing when yougo.
Like if you're in a situationwhere you're being asked a
question and you know it's gonnabe seen as something that is
(31:48):
representation of the cmo.
Like knowing, like when you cansay like when you could commit
to something, when you can't.
Chloe Washington (31:54):
Yeah.
And it becomes Ari like now I, Ihave no, I don't have that
imposter syndrome.
Like after a while you just,right.
If you have a really good CMO,you're, you have that rhythm and
you just know.
And if you do make a decisionthat you haven't talked about
and it gets back to them,they're like, no, I support.
Like even if they're like inprivate, why'd you do that?
Why do you know?
Going back to the Y?
As long as you have a goodreason, you know they're gonna
have.
(32:14):
Yeah.
Regan Dodson (32:15):
I struggle with that a lot too.
Imposter syndrome.
Um, but I guess my approach is alittle different.
than Chloe's, just becausesometimes I do things and then I
explain the why later.
But because we're so fast pacedhere that sometimes I don't have
the ability to be like, looklike, but he tells me what his
(32:38):
vision is, then I just executeit and then we'll talk about it.
And if they're, if there'sthings that go on along that
way, mistakes or whatever, we'llchat through it.
But most of the time we're insync and I think we're, we're
getting to the point.
I think I know, I know what todo.
I feel confident in that, veryconfident in that.
(32:58):
Um, and so I
Michael Hartmann (32:59):
just run with it.
Well, I like Chloe's Chloe'skind of point.
It was subtle, but I picked upis, you know, what's the amount,
what's the dollar amount of amistake that I can make without
like being really in trouble?
Right.
And I think, yeah, I mean like,I love that, but that's reality,
right?
So I, I mean, I don't think thatI've ever had it.
Conversation like that with myboss, and I'm not in the chief
ceal, but we've taken time whereI've, you know, I feel confident
(33:23):
now that I can go, like I can goengage with a vendor up to a
certain amount and I'm gonna beokay.
Right?
Even if it ends up not goingwell.
But then there are others wheremaybe there's, even if the
dollar amount was low, right?
There's a lot of potentialimpact to the other parts of the
team or the business.
um, from a change management,they brought up change
management.
Reagan like so mm-hmm.
(33:45):
Um, I think that's really likeif you're, if for our listeners
then who are in, you know,thinking like, how can I elevate
myself to be more, seems morestrategic with the rest of the
marketing team?
I think having those very directconversations is one way to do
it.
If you've got a, if you've got aleader who you work with that is
open to that, um, and myexperience has been if you
(34:06):
approach'em, they usually areop, like they.
want that from mm-hmm.
people who report to them.
Yeah.
Mike Rizzo (34:12):
Mm-hmm.
I agree.
Yep.
I had, so
Jim Williams (34:15):
I would also say, um, go ahead.
Sorry.
Go for it.
Oh.
Uh, yeah, so I would just saylike, because I'm, I'm just
going back and I kind ofreviewed some of the notes from
that, that, um, you know, thatpanel discussion we had last
Paul, and this this point cameup over and over again, which
is, uh, trust and context,right.
And the two are totally.
(34:35):
you have to have this absolutetrust between the chiefest
staff.
Mm-hmm.
and the cmo.
And even though CMO may trusttheir head of demand and field
marketing, whatever, they trustthem to do that role, which is
very different from trustingsomeone to help manage all roles
and particularly the conflictsbetween roles and conflicts
outside of the function ofmarketing.
(34:57):
So that trust is important incontext.
It's just, it's a little bit oflike being there from the
beginning is kind of important.
Right.
Under.
what were, what were we tryingto achieve as an organization?
What is marketing's role intrying to achieve that?
What is important to the CMO andthe C E O?
You know, like where does theCMO have concerns about the
(35:17):
strategy and how is it playing?
Where do they have concernsabout the people behind the
strategy?
All those things.
You kind of have to have thatcontext.
You gotta have the trust inorder to get that context.
But then once you have thatcontext, You're in a much, much,
much better position to act andspeak on behalf of the office of
the cmo.
Mm-hmm.
that that came up over and overagain in comments.
(35:38):
Yeah.
Mike Rizzo (35:39):
Makes what?
Regan Dodson (35:40):
what do you say to the, the marketers that will go,
even though you've discussedthis with either your chief of
staff or someone like, kind ofin my role, or vice versa?
Maybe Chloe, this is a questionfor you where you guys, you're
rolling out a process for theCMO and then the marketers are
like, no, and they, I'm, I'mgonna go tell the cmo, or I'm
(36:03):
gonna ask him, or you know, likekind of going behind you and
just kind of like, notunderstanding, you know, why
you're the one that's rollingout this process.
Like what do you do in that
Chloe Washington (36:15):
position?
I've let them go.
Ask him.
I mean, I, I'm not going to getgo, go, go ask dad.
Like, you know, like, he'sprobably gonna have the same
answer for you, you know?
But you also want to, going backto that communication, have
those one-on-ones with them andunderstand it.
Because that's not to say peopledon't have a good point.
Maybe there's something that youdid miss.
(36:36):
but they need to reallyunderstand, or at least, you
know, a lot of times I've, I'verolled out a couple of different
tools and processes and ofcourse they're pushback.
I wanna know the why.
I wanna know the why.
Making sure you have that, likethat PowerPoint slide or that
Google slide, like here you go.
Here's my why.
Like everything I roll out, orevery process I roll out, I five
bullet points.
This is what this is, this iswhat it's not.
(36:56):
Tell me what the gaps are.
I also preview before things.
I don't wait until things are ahundred percent polished to
tell, especially our directorplus population or our manager.
So they can start to ask thequestions.
They can, a lot of times theyget excited about it.
The directors wanna tell themanagers, and the managers
talking to the ic.
So they kind of, it's like aripple effect.
Mm-hmm.
And I think that that helps too.
(37:16):
And I also, I don't, I do notwant to be a gatekeeper.
I don't gatekeeper informationeither way.
Like, if Kip said, no, tell meeverything.
Okay, well, here's what's goingon.
You know, in the same wayotherwise.
And I think it, it helps me togain trust here.
Like, I don't mind if someonedoesn't like my answer.
feels the need that they wannatalk to Kip or to talk to both
of us.
(37:37):
I love that.
Mike Rizzo (37:38):
I, I, I just wanted to say that I think there's
something super refreshing aboutthis idea that, you know, I, I
know we've said trust andtransparency and all these
things a bunch of times, butlike, it's very rare that you
have the opportunity as anindividual contributor, whether
(37:58):
you're, you know, uh, entrylevel up to director, et cetera.
um, it's very rare that you cango to somebody who can hear you,
uh, try to translate what it isthat you're, what you're trying
to accomplish to mm-hmm.
to maybe an executive leader.
Um, and then, and then Chloe,like, I imagine there's gonna be
(38:20):
times in your role where, um,the, you know, KIPP in, in, in
his case and, you know, maybefor others in chief of staff
roles, y you're like, well, thelast time we talked about this,
you said this was the thing.
You said, this is what mattered.
this is what I've beencommunicating.
And so like, there's actuallythat level of like almost a
(38:42):
requirement to me.
It sounds like, you know, cuz I,I interact directly with startup
CEOs all the time where it'slike they want you to.
Hold on a second.
you know, like
Michael Hartmann (38:54):
you're, it feels like call bullshit on
stuff a little bit.
Yeah.
Like, it feels like you're
Mike Rizzo (38:58):
going a different direction.
The last time we talked, this iswhat we were saying was, was the
thing.
And you know, granted it's notfully rolled out, but like,
where, where are we?
Where are we crossing pathshere?
And I feel like that is sorefreshing for both, on both
sides, for the leader to havemm-hmm.
Yep.
Then, you know, and, and, andthe individual contributors too.
(39:20):
Otherwise, it's, I feel likeit's like a, a combative thing.
yeah.
It's not like a conversationyou're trying to work out.
I don't know.
So
Regan Dodson (39:27):
does that
Chloe Washington (39:28):
happen with you?
Yeah.
That goes back to the backbone.
You have to be able to tellthem.
I said that in my interview andafter I hung up at the Zoom
call, I was like, oh God, Ididn't get the job.
I, I told them, I was like, I'mnot a a yes person.
I'm not combative, but I bringexperience to this role.
Like you have to get to a pointin your career where you're sure
of, I might not know X, Y, Zcompany, but I know what I'm
(39:50):
doing.
I know the process, I know themethodology, and you have to
trust that if you're going tohire someone into this role that
you're never gonna trust, don'tbother getting a chief of staff
because it's not gonna bebeneficial to, to.
Mike Rizzo (40:02):
Yeah.
Yeah.
It sounds like hold, like chiefof staff, hold me accountable.
I'll hold you accountable forholding the rest of the team
accountable to holding meaccountable.
Jim Williams (40:10):
Okay.
Michael Hartmann (40:12):
Yeah.
I, I, I, I had a scenario whereI worked for somebody wasn't, it
was not head of marketing, butit was next level down a couple
jobs ago where we had a kindarelationship where I would like,
we both like would hold eachother accountable and give
direct feedback and I'd callaround on stuff.
It's to the point where we werein a group meeting one time and
we were like very obviously noton the same page and disagreeing
(40:36):
about something, and we ended upmaking a decision and I'd had
people come up to me and waslike, is everything okay?
I'm like, yeah, why?
Like, like, we, like, this iswhat we should do.
Right?
We should have these kinds ofhonest conversations.
Ultimately, I was like, I didn'tagree with that.
What?
What she was saying.
We had a conversation about it.
Ultimately, her decision.
(40:57):
And I had my peace and we, I'mgonna go support it, right?
Like, to me that was what thevalue was like, and it was just
really interesting to, to thereaction of other people that
were happened to be in the roomthat that was like, that's so a
normal, like not a normal thing.
You can be
Chloe Washington (41:12):
honest and respectful.
Regan Dodson (41:14):
Yeah.
You can not mutually exclusive,
Mike Rizzo (41:16):
you can be honest and respectful and I think
depending on your desire in yourfunction.
aspirations to want to, to havethat li I mean, it's stressful,
like, let's be real.
It's stressful, right?
Like you're, you're, you'resigning up at, at a chief of
staff role, you're signing upfor a level of stress that will
ebb and flow in very extremeorder.
(41:38):
Right.
I imagine.
I've never been to your staff,but I That sums it up
Chloe Washington (41:41):
pretty well.
Yeah.
know you
Regan Dodson (41:43):
like
Mike Rizzo (41:44):
it.
Yeah.
And, and, and there's gonna bemoments where there's like hard
conflict and Right.
You know, and you're dealingwith that and your, your, your
spine is gonna feel like it's onfire.
Right.
And your whole self is sweatingor whatever's going on.
And, and that's, that's superstressful.
And people sometimes don't wantto do that.
They just wanna be told what todo.
Mm-hmm.
just, Hey, this is not the roleto do that.
(42:05):
Yeah.
Michael Hartmann (42:06):
Like, I wanna make a good.
Mike Rizzo (42:08):
I want to know what you want to do and I wanted to
go do it.
Just tell me, tell me what you
Michael Hartmann (42:11):
wanna do.
Know what to do.
if I just ignore it, it'll goaway.
It's almost, it almost neverhappens if you
Chloe Washington (42:19):
just ignore it.
It's gonna be two times the
Regan Dodson (42:20):
problem in six months,
Michael Hartmann (42:21):
right before Right.
Mike Rizzo (42:24):
All right, before we get, cuz we're cover up on time
before we get to the end ofthis, and this has been so
wonderful.
I do want to hear Chloe.
what were your, like don't, nosecret sauce or anything like
that, obviously but like whatwere your 90 days like if
somebody stepped into that?
Like did you come in with anopinion of any kind?
(42:46):
Did you already know coming inthat there was gonna be
something you had to tackle?
How did that go and, and thenlike what were the sort of first
90, 180 days really thinking.
Uh, yeah, and we're, we'retalking about a pretty big
enterprise, so I imagine it'llbe different in other places,
but it'd be interesting just tohear
Chloe Washington (43:03):
there was a lot of, oh my God, what did I,
whoa, can I do this?
I mean, you know, we're in themiddle of a pandemic at the
time, fully remote.
Hadn't met anyone in person,wasn't a chief of staff in my
previous role.
I had the transferrable skills.
I was able to obviously get thisrole, but I had a lot.
Ideas of things that I assumedprobably needed to be like I
(43:24):
wanted to do.
Quick wins.
Quick hits, like grab the lowhanging fruit, build trust,
build relationships, just talkto people and understand.
Um, there were people that hadbeen here for years and years
and there were also new people.
So trying to bridge that gap of,well, at my old company we did
this, versus, well, this is howwe've always done this.
So trying to figure out therhythms and the themes.
I think it took, I would say achief of staff role to really.
(43:47):
Really get in.
It's, it has, it's been verydifferent than my other roles.
Like I felt like in projectprogram management roles, 90
days I'm in, I'm going Chief ofstaff.
It's a lot of listening.
It's fix this thing, startlistening about this thing, fix
this thing, start listening, andthen the floodgate's open and
you're like, okay, I'm planningnext year's budget.
All right, great.
You know, there's just like,just figure it out.
(44:07):
But it was a lot of feeling likeI was on a slippery slope and
trying to find the small winsfor the first several months.
Mike Rizzo (44:15):
That's really
Chloe Washington (44:15):
interesting.
I'm super, yeah, super helpful.
I'm still here, so I didn't,
Regan Dodson (44:18):
we're good.
Still having fun,
Chloe Washington (44:21):
you know?
Right.
Enjoying it.
Still enjoying it.
Definitely.
Regan Dodson (44:24):
You're killing it.
You're killing it.
Thank you,
Michael Hartmann (44:28):
Well, good.
Well, I, I think Mike hintedthis, like, we're gonna probably
have to wrap up here, but beforewe go, I guess I'll, I'll open
up a little bit.
Is there anything that we hadn'ttalked about that you think is
really important for, like, ifpeople, our listen.
primarily marketing ops folks.
Like if they were interested inthis kind of role, like what
would you, like any last bit ofthing be, you know, that they
should, they should know about?
(44:51):
Maybe go around the horn.
Chloe, you first, how aboutthat?
Chloe Washington (44:54):
Apply for the role anyway, no matter what the
job description says.
A lot of times companies don'tknow really what they want
achieve of staff, so they'regonna put some bullets on some.
and you can, you should still ahundred percent apply.
Show why you're valuable, whatyour ideas are, and then your
role know your role's gonnachange every 90 days.
The fundamental role is thesame, but what you're working
on, who you're talking to, whatyou're doing, it's like a new
(45:16):
job every 90 days.
And I love
Regan Dodson (45:17):
that.
Michael Hartmann (45:17):
It's like an internal consultant.
Chloe Washington (45:19):
Yes, very much so.
Yeah,
Jim Williams (45:20):
that's right.
Michael Hartmann (45:23):
Reagan, any.
Regan Dodson (45:25):
Yeah, I think with being a marketing operations
professional in general, likethere, there is an executive,
um, Ceiling that you can get to,right?
Like you can get there.
Um, if you're a campaignoperations specialist or if
you're a marketing operationsspecialist, like you can get to
(45:47):
a director position, you can getto a chief of staff position.
Like marketing Ops is not thesame marketing ops it was a year
ago, two years ago, and it looksdifferent and different
companies, right?
I encourage you to really.
First of all, join marketingops.com and then also Um,
(46:09):
connect with other marketing opsprofessionals on LinkedIn or in
the community and just ask themwhat they're doing.
I think that's really good to,to build a rapport with other
marketing ops professionals.
Michael Hartmann (46:21):
Jim, any final thoughts?
Jim Williams (46:24):
Yeah, a couple.
I mean, first of all, this is agreat discussion, so thank you.
I learned a lot, agreed on this.
I think that, um, whilemarketing ops is, you know,
clearly established itself as acritical function, it's the
thing that everyone's investingin.
You know, even down economy,invest, marketing ops, et
cetera.
The path to an executive role isstill not as clear as it could
(46:47):
be.
Like if you're a marketing opperson today, like how do you
actually, if you want to becomea CMO or a COO more likely, how
do you get there?
It's not quite as clear.
It's just cuz it's relativelystill.
And I would say that this is onepath to get there because it
gets you to that ex executiveexposure.
You take on a much wider arrayof challenges that, uh, you
(47:09):
know, across many differentfunctions.
Um, but you are going to haveto.
Sacrificed your love of techslightly.
Slightly.
Yes.
You know what I mean?
Mm-hmm.
like that's why out it's the yyything and you know, and you ask
a couple of those whys, just getthe first two whys not even
five.
And eventually, you're nottalking about tech anymore,
(47:31):
right?
You're actually starting to talkabout strategy.
Um, and that that's a key thingfor someone to consider.
Michael Hartmann (47:38):
I'm really glad
Mike Rizzo (47:39):
you called that out cuz I meant to say that earlier
when it, when it re sort ofhinted, uh, at it a little bit
ago.
Um, I love some of the I lovethat you said that.
Yeah.
Naomi on our team is alwaystalking about how much she does
love the tech.
right?
Yeah.
She loves a tech and sometimeswhen she gets pulled too far
away from it, she gets a littlebu like bummed out.
I don't wanna put a bunch ofwords in her mouth, but I have
(48:00):
heard her say that before.
Mm-hmm.
Um, and it sounds like this isone of those situations where
it's like you better be prettyready to walk away from the tech
Jim Williams (48:09):
Well, well, who knows, man.
You know, maybe in that role, inyour head you have a workflow,
you're creating an financialYeah,
Regan Dodson (48:16):
totally.
Chloe Washington (48:17):
Oh, definitely.
Tech, I still, I still wanna getin as much as I can.
Like how can tech, me too.
How can I make tech strategytechnical.
All right.
Yeah.
Yes.
Yes.
Regan Dodson (48:26):
I love the tech too.
I, it's something that I reallymiss, but my marketing
operations manager is our techwiz, our HubSpot wiz.
Our Acadia wiz now.
So I just hear it through thegrapevine, um, and, and support
him in the advisory setting.
But the tech is the best part.
I will say
Michael Hartmann (48:45):
nah, I, I am made a point where I have to
tell, like when somebody asks meto, to help on the team, I'm
like, okay, as long as you knowthat I'm gonna be the slowest
one on the team at doingsomething wrong,
Regan Dodson (48:56):
So
Michael Hartmann (48:58):
totally fair.
Just not in there every day.
Well, good.
This has been, I agree, liketotally.
This was a fun conversation.
It feels like we just scratchedthe surface.
Uh, like I think there's otherkind of paths we could go down.
So maybe we can continue this,uh, conversation somewhere else.
But, um, thank you so much.
All of you, ops Pza is where weshould continue.
Mapa Pza.
Mike Rizzo (49:18):
Let's do a panel.
Let's have all three of you on apanel at Mos and Palooza.
That's a thing.
Love to do
Chloe Washington (49:23):
it.
Yeah,
Regan Dodson (49:23):
let's do it.
Let's go.
That
Michael Hartmann (49:25):
would, that'd be great.
Um, so a, if, if pokes wannakeep up with you, like go around
the horn here, would you guyschoose, like where, where can
they kind of connect with you orkeep up with what you're doing?
Chloe Washington (49:36):
LinkedIn for me.
Definitely.
All right.
Chloe Washington so easy tofind.
Regan Dodson (49:43):
LinkedIn for me, not a lot of Reagans in
marketing ops.
Yeah,
Jim Williams (49:48):
LinkedIn.
Not easy to find.
Jim Williams
Mike Rizzo (49:56):
I did find.
I did find you.
I, I, I just connected actually.
Awesome.
Thank you.
Michael Hartmann (50:03):
Mike.
Mike has, Mike has a little bitof a d d.
Yeah, I do.
I just, I multitask.
Mike Rizzo (50:07):
I can't help it.
Michael Hartmann (50:10):
Yeah.
Thank you so much.
Really
Mike Rizzo (50:12):
appreciate it.
Regan Dodson (50:13):
Thank you, y'all.
Thank you.
Jim Williams (50:14):
Thank you very much.
It was a great conversation.
Michael Hartmann (50:16):
Thanks everyone, and we will see you
next time.
Bye.
Bye everybody.
All right.
Hello everyone.
(00:00):
Welcome to another episode ofOpsCast, brought to you by
MarketingOps.com, powered by theMO Pros.
I'm your host, Michael Hartmann.
Joined today by, Only oneco-host again, Mike Rizzo.
So Mike, we are definitely gonnaneed to get Naomi back on one of
these days.
She'll be back soon, I'm sure ofit, but I'm glad to be here.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I'm excited for this one, soI want just dive right into it.
(00:21):
Um, gonna get into a topic that,um, I'm interested in, I think
hopefully our, our, youlisteners are as well, but it's
about marketing chief of staffroles, so joining us to talk
about this today.
Our several guests we've got,first we've got Chloe
Washington, who's currently thechief of staff to the CMO at
HubSpot.
And prior to joining HubSpot,she held several project
(00:41):
management operations, bothsales and marketing ops roles
and some leadership roles.
Uh, she's also a PMP certified.
We also have Ragen Dodson,currently director of Marketing
Operations and Analytics atAxonius.
Prior to joining Axonius, Reaganhad, se has several, um, has had
several marketing ops roles,marketing and finance roles in,
she's had her own agency.
(01:03):
And last but not least is JimWilliams, who's currently the
CMO of Uptempo.io.
Uh, Jim has held previous CMOand marketing leadership roles,
including at Eloqua as well asroles in public relations.
So thank you all for joining ustoday.
Hi.
Happy to be here.
Thank you.
Jim Williams (01:20):
So happy to be.
Yep.
Delighted.
Michael Hartmann (01:24):
So I think it's gonna be funny, Jim, we're
gonna have to talk sometime.
Like I think when you were atEloqua, it was like right around
the time prior to the Oracleacquisition when I was still, I
was an early, I was a customerback then, right before that.
So offline.
We can talk about that.
I hope that's a good thing.
No, no.
I, I like, uh, I still have, uh,for, for our long time
listeners, we did a, we did anepisode about a year ago.
(01:47):
Mike and I got on and justriffed on how bad sales people
were at selling to Marketing Opsfolks, but I have a really good
experience for the person who,who I worked with at Eloqua back
in those days, long time ago.
Jim Williams (01:59):
Yeah.
Michael Hartmann (02:00):
All right.
So I, like I said, I'm, I'm veryinterested in, in this and why,
um, and kind of what I, why Ithink I'm interested.
I've been seeing, at leastanecdotally on my side, you
know, more of the emergence of.
Marketing chief of staff typeroles.
Um, and I believe, I like, oneof the challenges we always talk
about here is like, what arethe, what are the career paths
that makes sense for marketingops professionals?
(02:24):
Um, cuz even up until recently,there just weren't even many
roles beyond director or seniordirector levels.
So very few VP level even.
So why don't we, like, maybe wecan start, and Chloe, since
you're sitting in that roletoday, why don't we start with
you like, what is, like, howwould you define marketing chief
of staff role?
Like, what does it entail?
What does it not include?
Chloe Washington (02:44):
Happy to.
Yeah.
This is the first question Iget.
Like, you're chief of staff.
What, what does that even mean?
Uh, chief of staff, you're astrategic ops and planning
leader.
you are an operational thoughtleader.
You are a person that evensometimes when you don't, you
know, you're feeling a littleinsecure about decisions.
You're making decisions on thefly.
You are the right hand man orwoman to the CMO.
Uh, the role gets confused a lotwith executive assistant.
(03:06):
It is not, those are two veryimportant roles, but very
separate roles.
I work very closely with theCMOs executive assistant.
We are.
Uh, I like to say a dream team.
We work very well together, butour roles are very, very
different.
It's not a siloed role at all.
You're talking to everyonewithin the company.
You have to get, that's the onlyway that you're going to be
successful in this role.
It is definitely someone that isable to manage up well and gets
(03:30):
to talk to a lot of people atall levels and try and remember
a million things at.
Michael Hartmann (03:36):
Just curious.
So, um, we're, I think we'regonna get into some more of the
specifics of the role, but like,Jim, I'm assuming, just given
where kinda what your, your,your experience as a CMO and,
and, um, kind of the types ofcustomers you're selling to,
right?
That you probably run into thesemore often than, than maybe some
of the rest of us.
Are you seeing any trends inthis?
Am I off from that standpoint?
Jim Williams (03:58):
No, we're seeing a big trend.
It was actually one of the firstthings that I asked about when I
came into the role at uptempo.
We sell marketing operationssoftware, and I kept seeing this
role of marketing chief of staffor chief of staff to the CMO
popping up in, in conversations,sales, conversations,
opportunities, et cetera.
It honestly was not a title thatI had seen a lot of over my
(04:21):
career.
I think it's this, uh, risingrole.
In fact, we.
Last fall, November 30th, we, wedid a, a webinar where we just
got, uh, a handful of marketingchief of staff together and had
a conversation very similar tothe one we're having today.
And, uh, people came out of thewoodwork.
We had like, you know, a, a lotmore registrations than I ever
would've imagined, um, becausepeople are really curious about
(04:44):
the role.
And, and I think, you know, thisseems maybe somewhat intuitive.
The role of marketing haschanged so much in the last 20
years, and what a CMO needs tomanage and the skillsets and the
people and the tech and theinsights and the data that, um,
this role has become now acritical factor in making sure
(05:06):
that the, you know, the plansthat are created and rolled out
to the organization, which mucha plum is actually being
followed and executed andcarried.
and the resources necessary tocarry it out are aligned
properly.
It's just, it's too much for oneperson to do in, in the role of
Cmmo and all of the CM O'Sdirect reports are all managing
their own function.
(05:27):
So you have this kind of centralglue in the chief of staff role.
Michael Hartmann (05:32):
Yeah, I, so what are the ways I think about
it, and maybe this, uh, I'llthrow this, this out there, but
I think of it as one of thefunctions seems to me to be, um,
if there's a.
A project or an initiative thatis needed from the CMO level
that doesn't have a natural fitto what, what like a traditional
(05:52):
marketing leadership role.
Um, they're like, this would bethe perfect kind of thing that
a, a chief of staff would takeon.
Right.
So to your, to your point,Chloe, right, it's not just like
administrative, like, it wouldbe like, you'd be responsible
for, like, are you responsiblefor like, I'll call it special
projects or things like that,that don't, wouldn't otherwise
fit into somebody else's?
Chloe Washington (06:12):
definitely strategic projects are a big
part of my day-to-day, and a lotof it isn't just the CMO telling
you what needs to be done.
It's you hearing from the restof the marketing work and
telling the cmo, Hey, I'm doingthis, this needs to be taken
Michael Hartmann (06:23):
care of.
Ah, okay.
Goes a little bit both ways.
Mm-hmm.
makes sense.
That makes sense.
All right.
So, um, yeah.
One of the things I think, uh,as we talked about this, right,
and probably our listeners aregoing through is like, okay, I'm
in marketing ops, or I'm inrevenue ops.
I've got a little better ideanow of what a chief of staff
role might include, but likewhat are the, like what do you
(06:44):
think of as the differences inscope and responsibility for,
say, I almost hate to saytraditional marketing
operations, but marketingoperations and a chief of staff
role.
Reagan, maybe you, you can shareyour thoughts on.
Regan Dodson (07:03):
Yeah, for sure.
I think it, it stems from howbig your company is, right?
Because a lot of times, likewith axons, we are, you know,
emerging and we really don'thave, I mean, we have 50
marketers, um, but we're not ata place right now to have a
chief of staff role.
(07:23):
So, um, with that being said,there's, there's.
I like what you said, um, Jim,about the glue component because
that's exactly what our CMO toldme today as I was prepping for
this podcast was.
That the chief of staff rolewould kind of be like glue.
So what we have right nowcurrently at Axons is we have a
(07:46):
coordinator that rolls up to ourchief marketing officer, and
then we have me, um, thedirector of marketing operations
and analytics.
And so those two pieces are likeglue for him, whereas my role is
more so like very strategic,like Chloe was saying.
Um, you know, we have to beoperational thought leaders.
We have to kind.
(08:07):
Gather all the thoughts, um,from, you know, the rest of the
marketing team and kind oftranslate that into CMO
language, right, or vice versato the rest of the team.
There's a lot of times where,you know, this role, I would say
it is.
Kind of like a chief of staffrole, you know, in our company
size.
(08:28):
But this role, you know, has totouch every facet of marketing.
And so we have to haveunderstanding of every single
thing that goes on.
And a lot of times you find thatthe marketers feel a little bit
more comfortable coming to thechief of staff or director of
marketing operations.
Um, instead of just going rightto the CMO.
I don't know, Chloe, if you, ifyou kind of feel that, or, uh, a
(08:51):
hundred percent.
Yep.
Yeah, for sure.
And so it, it seems like we takeon a lot of the burden, um,
before it gets to the cmo.
And, and my goal is to try toaccomplish all of the, the, the
task and things at hand and dealwith, um, you know, like our
external stakeholders, like ourbusiness operations team and our
finance team and all that stuff.
(09:12):
So it's handled before it getsto the cmo and that I can kind
of create a process.
Um, but yeah.
That's kind of where we're at.
But I, I think for anorganization like HubSpot or a
Fortune 500, I think you have tohave a chief of staff role, but
it's definitely going toencompass a lot of like the
coordination and the strategyoperations of such.
Mike Rizzo (09:36):
It makes a ton of sense to me.
I, I love hearing the three sortof different, uh, the same
similarities across all three ofyou, but like, just where, where
you're currently focused, likewhere your attention is, uh, and
the perspective.
Uh, it's funny, like it echoes,I don't know if funny is the
right word for it, but for me itechoes community.
(09:57):
right?
Yeah.
Like Chloe and Reagan and Jim,like everything you're saying is
like, there's glue, there'strust, there's transparency,
there's building this rapportacross like all these different
individuals.
And so like this chief of stafffunction is like, Hey, I have to
take these inputs from theexecutives, and I also have to
be seen as this trusted advisorfor the rest of the organization
(10:21):
to try to figure out like wherewe could go next, right?
Or what's happening.
And by taking both of thoseinputs to try to translate that
to something that, uh, a chiefmarketing officer or a CEO for
that matter might want tointerpret or hear, uh, is a, is
a very special skillset thathas.
sort of be developed over time.
(10:42):
Mm-hmm.
and HHartmann and I, we werevery fortunate at, uh, summer
camp last summer to have a CMOin the room.
And everybody went through thisexercise of like trying to take
geek speak, um, and, and, andput it in front of a CMO and
say, do you understand what I'mtrying to say to you?
And
Michael Hartmann (11:00):
um, it was a very humbling experience.
Mike Rizzo (11:03):
It was this wonderful, wonderful experience.
Um, no, it was
Michael Hartmann (11:06):
fantastic.
Mike Rizzo (11:07):
Yeah.
And, and so I, I love that it'slike it so much of what you were
saying, the three of you, um,really makes like a ton of
sense.
And, and the first time, like Ihad never even heard of this
idea of like becoming a chief ofstaff from a marketing ops
perspective, uh, until like,really it was like the last nine
(11:29):
months or so when HHartmann andI started talking about it a
little bit, and I think hebrought it up.
Um, but gosh, it makes a lot ofsense, right?
When like Reagan, as you'resaying, you have visibility
across the entire sort ofinfrastructure of what's going
on, all the pipes, so to speak.
Yep.
and, and that like, because ofthat visibility, we always say,
and I find myself often sayingto folks that I'm mentoring in
(11:52):
the community, you've got areally unique opportunity to
start poking holes in things orstart asking questions and say,
Hey, I saw this anomaly.
Do you think we could do this,this, or that?
Um, and gosh, that really makesyou the strategic leader, but
it's not often that theexecutive is coming down to the
marketing ops professional and.
(12:13):
Hey, we have a go-to-marketinitiative coming, right?
Um, I, I don't even for you,Reagan, I'm not sure how much
it's happening, but Jim, maybeyou can jump in here too.
Like, Hey, we're gonna try toenter a totally new market.
How do we do that?
Like mm-hmm.
I feel like you're responsible,Jim for Yeah.
Coming up with the how to dothat before you ever go to the
(12:34):
marketing op person.
So I definitely wanna hear fromboth of you on it.
Jim Williams (12:38):
Uh, yeah.
So, I mean, I, I'll jump in, butI think that part of.
this fundamental conversation isabout this, this, this gap, I'm
gonna call it the gap inmarketing operations that we see
all the time and the gap inmarketing operations is,
operational marketing, uh,that's the best way to put it.
(13:00):
Right.
for some reason, there'smarketing operations, and if you
think about the term operations,like you're talking about
everything, the people, time,resources, dollars, all the
stuff that makes marketinghappen.
Mm-hmm.
Yep.
All too often marketing are, uh,uh, operations focus are
focused.
on MarTech sometimes.
(13:21):
Mm-hmm.
like within MarTech, 90% of thatis marketing automation within
MarTech.
Right?
In the meantime, you have a CMOand the CMO gets handed a pile
of dollars from investors andthey say, you need to enter this
market, generate this pipeline,uh, you know, have this many
wins, hit this revenue target,et cetera.
All that's gonna be done byhaving a strategic.
(13:45):
with operating objectives, withdollars associated with teams
that don't do work streams inorder to execute.
Mm-hmm.
that continuum largely isignored by marketing operations
until you get to just theexecute and measure type thing.
And so I think sometimes CMOsare struggling.
to get answers about thebeginning part of that you know,
(14:08):
the, the beginning part of thatprocess.
Okay.
We had a plan.
We have these objectives, wehave these KPIs.
How are we doing against those?
Are we funding the rightinitiatives or not?
Do we need to shift resourcesone way or another?
That's not really the domain ofmany marketing operations folks,
and so therefore there's thisbig gap, and that gap I think,
is being filled by this verystrategic chief of staff role.
(14:30):
Mm.
Mike Rizzo (14:31):
And I think, you know, to Reagan's point, I think
there's, uh, a lot ofopportunity for a marketing
operations professional to growinto that role.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Uh, it certainly shouldn'thappen overnight, but Reagan,
uh, you know, how's it going foryou all as it relates to sort
of, I think the last time youand I talked, there were plenty
of new growing initiatives, uh,happening at your organization
(14:53):
and you were really excitedabout.
Um, but I would love to hearsort of like this idea of like,
how, how are you all tacklingthat gap or trying to jump it?
Regan Dodson (15:03):
at first when the last time I talked to you, it
was crazy.
Um, revamped our wholeattribution model and our system
and brought on Acadia at thesame time.
During that, Jim, I know youlike that Um, and so that was a
lot of change management.
Um, you know, and rolling thatout to the rest of the marketing
(15:25):
team.
Um, you know, just like yousaid, Jim, like we were viewed
before I, before I got to Axonsand took this position, we were
viewed as marketing.
Just marketing apps just handlesthe tech.
and I guess I've just never, myrole has always been no
marketing ops.
You're a marketing ops leaderand you need to handle
(15:45):
everything.
And so when I got in, I waslike, I can see this gap and I
can see this gap.
And I'm like, I have to fix allof this.
Or we're, we're, I could justsee disaster.
And so that's what I've beendoing and I think it's been well
received.
I think, um, you know, uh, we'regrowing so fast.
Um, we haven't had time to justsit down and do some
(16:07):
foundational work, and I thinkI'm, I'm, I'm doing that and
our, my team is doing that.
And at first it was kind oflike, why is marketing ops and
now in charge of our, ourbudget?
Why is marketing ops like now incharge of, you know, our tech
stack and procurement and, um,our data, our, we, we own our
marketing data, um, andanalytics.
(16:28):
And so I think that was aneye-opener, but now I think our
marketers are like, You'remaking my job so much more
easier because now I can justfocus on Yes.
Creative marketing whilemarketing ops is running behind
the scenes.
So that's kind of where we're atnow.
Mike Rizzo (16:42):
I love that.
I, I just want to throw in onelast little thing, and I think
HHartmann wants to pull me backoff of this for a
Michael Hartmann (16:47):
minute.
No, no, no.
I like, I, there's a th there'sa thread there that I was pick,
I was like, I wanted to followup on too, so Carry on.
I'm just, I'm just gonna share
Mike Rizzo (16:56):
that, uh, I had just gotten off a, a conversation
with, Marketing ops professionalwho works at, uh, one of the
larger chat organizations outthere.
Uh, I'll spare the name of allof them, but, um, the thing that
this individual shared with meis I think what makes somebody
excellent at their role is beingable to take the request, uh,
(17:17):
for whether it's a CMO or acampaign ops person, somebody on
the marketing team or sales forthat matter, and saying, great,
I love that you want to do that,but here's how we up-level.
Uh, and here's, and here's howit makes, here's how we make it
better, right?
Um, and I think that, again,that takes time to learn all the
intricacies of the tech stackthat you have, uh, but is also
(17:38):
just another prime example ofwhen somebody's really
passionate about that function,the marketing ops function, how
it lends itself very quickly tothis sort of enablement, uh,
strategic leader opportunity,uh, so that you can take
somebody's request and say, yes,we can do that.
But here, where we could go nextwith it.
You know?
Did you think about thisopportunity?
(17:58):
So anyway, I thought that wasreally.
No, that's
Chloe Washington (18:01):
great.
You're enabling like, I feellike I enable marketers to
market.
It's not just about the externaltech stack.
What's the internal tech stacklike to Jim's point?
Mm-hmm.
all the planning, all the thingsthat we're doing.
They can't use spreadsheets andpieces of paper and post-it
notes, like how do we make thisseamless and allow them to get
back to their day jobs, if youwill.
Like all of that planning isimportant, but then the
execution is more important andhow can you enable them to
(18:23):
execute more flawless.
Michael Hartmann (18:25):
Yeah, like I'm a big fan of like taking that, I
mean the one thing that might,you know, like talked about is
like results and, you know,getting, but I think there's
something about simplificationtoo.
So I think there's a lot ofmarketing teams that I've worked
with, um, even if we thought wehad a decent process, that tends
to be over complicated or thetech tech stack is complicated.
(18:45):
So I think part of that advisingand providing guidance is also
about how do we take this ideaand not only make it work and
work effectively.
Do it in a way that is,especially if it's something
new, I'm like, try somethingnew.
Do it as in a simplest way youcan, so that you can learn from
it quickly.
I think there's a real value inbeing able to move quickly that
is undervalued in a lot ofplaces.
(19:05):
Um, okay.
So I want, going back to thisthread, I, I, I feel like my
question about like is, does,would this kind of role, chief
of staff role make sense for amarketing ops person to move
into in the right situation, itsounds like Yes.
The case.
I didn't hear anything that sortof countered that, but happy to
hear that feedback.
But it feels like, especiallybased on Jim, what you said,
(19:29):
like it feel like there's someskill gaps maybe that you see
that most marketing ops folkswould tend to have or that they
aren't, um, either they have thegaps or they're not ex, they're
not actually showing that, thatthey have the skills that are
needed to kind of be in thatrole.
Like I picked up.
Finance, which Mike knows, likeI could get on a soapbox about
the importance of the fight.
(19:49):
yeah.
Understanding finance for awhile, but, but I think like
communicating with people well,like finding the, like what do
you see as like from yourexperience with marketing ops
people who are historicallymostly about MarTech and
campaign ops?
I would argue those are the twomain things that most teams do
like to, what are the skillsthat they, you think?
(20:10):
Benefit from learning?
No, only in that role, but alsoif they aspire to something like
a chief of staff role.
Yeah,
Jim Williams (20:16):
it's, it's, it's a great question.
I actually, I, I have a, I havea comment on this, but I'm gonna
defer to Chloe because we, we'vehad so many conversations over
the last few weeks that areexactly on this, and she, she's
got this nailed, she's got thisanswer nailed much better than I
do.
Perfect.
So I'll let it defer.
But just because you brought upfinance, cuz I feel like it's
something we've kind of talkedabout here, but have skirted.
(20:40):
I, I think the relationshipbetween, it's not just within
marketing and points of frictionthat a chief of staff has to
kind of manage and, and planaround.
It's definitely points offriction outside of marketing
and one of the prime ones iswith finance.
Mm-hmm.
you know, just like.
You know, we were ripping onEloco or whatever, 15 years ago,
(21:01):
right?
The point of friction then wasbetween marketing and sales, and
that's why we built this textact as you have a contract
between these two functions thatgoverns the relationship.
No such system exists reallybetween marketing and finance,
and because dollars are thelifeblood of marketing that
needs to be figured out.
(21:21):
It.
again, just so you go back andyou compared that relationship
with sales, right?
Where its like, Hey, here's abunch of leads.
We're gonna send youspreadsheets full of leads.
Remember that?
Like how great that life beforeMarTech.
Oh yeah.
That is exactly the state of arttoday between financial teams
and marketing teams.
It is.
Dozens, sometimes hundreds ofspreadsheets going back and
(21:43):
forth.
Mm-hmm.
as long reconciliation process.
It's always delayed.
Nobody even knows how muchmoney's in the budget.
And every single marketer ishaving a conversation right now
with the cfo F about the budget,about getting everything out of
the budget.
So I think that friction pointbetween marketing finance is,
uh, is a big driver of this rolefor sure.
(22:03):
that I'll, I'll Chloe maybe talka little bit about the skillsets
required
Chloe Washington (22:07):
for the role.
Yeah, no, you're spot on.
The trust and you know, I thinkthat sometimes silence is
mistaken for they're not doingsomething or they're hiding
something from one side or theother.
Having that person, like I havea finance contact, we talk every
single day, and to Reagan'spoint, Acadia has helped.
that immensely like thespreadsheet.
Life is real and you need to beable to, when I think about a
(22:28):
chief of staff versus someonethat's a marketing ops person, a
lot of it's personality.
Being able to push back.
Being able to push back and talkto the C F O, the CMO, being
able to give them.
Hey, here's what's really goingon.
And you know, when we weretalking earlier about the
skillset, I think grouptherapist is one like a big part
of being chief of staff love.
Like you gotta take it and heareverybody's everything, all the
(22:51):
complaining, and then you haveto also know what does the CMO
need to know out of that?
What is relevant versus you justlistening and taking it in?
What is actually a problem thatneeds to be solved, whether it
be financial or something withinthe marketing team.
I mean, a big thing that I heardmy first year at hubs, I can't
do this in a spreadsheet.
It's gonna take me 10 hours togive, get you that one answer.
I can't do this.
I don't have time to do this.
(23:12):
And to their point, they, theydon't have time to do this.
We're trying to execute.
And that's one
Michael Hartmann (23:16):
and that's one time, right?
They just, you do that, it'sexpected to be done on a regular
Chloe Washington (23:20):
basis.
Exactly.
Absolutely.
But also a chief of staff issometimes like, no, you do have
to do it.
You do have to stop what you'redoing and do this thing related
to finance or not to someone.
you know, you kind of have tohave backbone to be able to do
this.
Because I think a lot of timeswhen you're, yeah, when you're,
especially when you'reimplementing something or you're
taking something away.
Mm-hmm.
(23:40):
from the team as they view it.
So, you know, the first sixmonths, who is this person?
What do they wanna do?
Why are they taking this fromme?
Me?
And then thank God, like, Idon't know how I could do this
without you.
Thankful for this tool, thankfulfor this thing.
So you have to be able to like,alright, they'll like me later.
They don't have to like me nowif I'm being efficient and
really helping them.
you can't take it.
Yes.
Regan Dodson (24:00):
Oh,
Mike Rizzo (24:01):
so
Michael Hartmann (24:01):
true.
Yeah.
Regan Dodson (24:02):
Uhhuh But you really have to like this role,
Chloe, you really encompassedall of the, the traits like you
have to be, you have to have astrong backbone for sure in this
role.
Michael Hartmann (24:14):
So, uh, so like something to what you, when
you just said that, um, it feelslike an important skill, which I
think is also important forsalespeople.
It's most people who have neverdone sales don't think about,
but you have to be really goodat asking good questions.
Is that like, do you think youhave to be a good.
Because a lot of conflict I seein organizations has to do with
people talking past each othervery often in agreement.
(24:37):
I like to call it violentagreement.
Like they're just Like they'rein a very loud conversation, but
they're actually agreeing.
But just using different words.
Chloe Washington (24:44):
Yeah.
You have to get to firstprinciples, you have to clear
the fog completely and get tothe why from all sides.
Interesting.
Regan Dodson (24:52):
That's the key word.
The.
Mm-hmm.
Mike Rizzo (24:56):
Yeah.
Why do you want to send thatemail?
Yeah.
Right?
Michael Hartmann (25:00):
Why?
Yeah.
I think that's it.
What was it?
Is it, there's some, uh, I don'tknow if it's, I don't know if I
called out.
I've heard, but somebody talked,I've worked with, talked about,
uh, there's like this approachto getting to the bottom
something.
It's like the five why's.
Have you heard of this?
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, you've, okay, so if youcan ask why like five
Mike Rizzo (25:16):
times and eventually get to the, it's like, you know,
like when you were a kid and youjust kept saying it's a toddler
approach.
Regan Dodson (25:22):
Yeah.
Toddler
Jim Williams (25:23):
approach.
Well, why, well, tell me why.
I love about, I love how thetoddler approaches describes the
standard sales discovery method.
Michael Hartmann (25:35):
Uh, no.
I, so I like total aside, but Iremember like when I first had
kids, I.
there's a whole lot I can applyto like raising kids to Yeah.
Dealing with people in aprofessional environment, cuz a
lot of people end up being likea lot oft kids and Yeah.
So, yeah.
So,
Mike Rizzo (25:51):
and, and it's just managing your own responses to,
you know, to not just yourchildren, but to your
stakeholders, to yourcolleagues.
Right.
Um, I, I distinctly rememberearlier in my career, like being
hyper offended when somebodywould.
like talk badly about the techstack.
(26:12):
It's like, yeah.
As if I somehow owned the tool,like it was mine, you know?
Yeah.
like
Michael Hartmann (26:16):
as if I was the creator
Mike Rizzo (26:18):
of HubSpot or whatever tool I was using.
Right.
Totally.
And then, you know, like as youevolve in the role, you're like,
oh wait, like.
I, that's not, I don't own that.
Like I own the responsibility ofmaking it do what it's supposed
to do, but like, I'm not here todefend like the tech stack.
And so yeah, that's a skill thatyou have to learn for sure.
(26:38):
Yeah.
Maybe it was just me though.
Chloe Washington (26:40):
No, totally.
I, I'm aligned with you Okay.
Can't take it personally likeReagan was saying.
No,
Regan Dodson (26:45):
you can't.
And another thing is too, islike, I think you know, the CMO.
Has the responsibility of makingsure that he or she communicates
the role of whether it's thedirector of marketing ops or the
chief of staff, or, or, orhowever that that is.
I feel like that causes a lot oftension with the rest of the
(27:08):
marketing team cuz they have noidea what marketing ops really
is.
I mean, we know, but like, likeyou said, everyone just defaults
too.
They just run the tech stack.
So I think it's the C o'sresponsibility to make sure they
relay that message and the whybehind it.
Michael Hartmann (27:23):
Makes sense.
Yeah,
Jim Williams (27:24):
I, I, I would agree with that.
I think that, I think marketingops is particularly challenged
because of the scope andcomplexity of the tech stack
that marketing runs compared toeverywhere else.
Mm-hmm.
right?
I, I don't think, like some itguy in my org gets upset if you
complain about the e r P systemor something, you know what I
mean?
Like Right.
(27:44):
But it's cause it's doing asingular thing.
But, um, but that, that is, it'sa significant challenge and.
It's, you know, if, if you're ina board meeting, no one cares.
Yeah.
About how many apps you have,how vertically integrated there
is, the data flows from one tono.
Nobody cares about they eventhings like, you know, oh, we're
working on this nurturingprogram.
(28:05):
We come on do scoring program,and oh, we started using the
intent-based data and thattriggers this camp.
Like, why?
It's the same as you said, fivewise.
Why?
Why are you doing that?
Why are you doing that?
What they wanna get back to is,You have, we have these growth
targets and we funded you at Xamount, and tell me what is the
return you're getting on thatfunding Now, break it down,
right against each of theseprograms.
(28:26):
What return are you getting inthose programs, in these
campaigns that support theprograms?
What return, what channel?
Like we're trying to get to thatand when I, I keep harping on
finance, but when they're, allof the systems to execute that
program are completelydisconnected from a budget.
There is no return oninvestment.
There's no why.
Regan Dodson (28:46):
Well, look, look at you advertising Acaia.
Yeah,
Jim Williams (28:51):
It's a challenge.
Right?
So that's, that's whatinvestment care about.
They're just, they're moneypeople.
Michael Hartmann (28:55):
Well, so you're getting at something
though lot though.
So this, there's a little bitof, Mike talked about, uh, when
we were at summer camping, howhaving that CMO sort of really
listened to some analysis orpitch like, and getting this.
Uh, getting her perspective onhow she perceived it and what it
really like was really, reallyinteresting.
(29:15):
It was hard, but I think, um,kind of one of the things you're
getting at Jim, that I think ismaybe another challenge for
people who would wanna move intothis role is that you're
expected to be therepresentative of the cmo right?
In, in meetings where the CMOcan't be there.
So, uh, I'm curious.
A, is that correct?
(29:35):
I'm, I think my assumption'sright, but if it's not, somebody
can jump in and clarify it.
But, um, how, like, how, how doyou go about like, doing that?
Like what's the process whereyou get that comfortable?
Cause I assume there's, there'slike this trust between those
two, like the CMO and the chiefof staff, or if it's marketing
and then second maybe, um, Whatdo you think is important in
(29:58):
terms of building that trust sothat you can be that viewed as
that representative?
Uh, Reagan, maybe you start, Idon't know, whoever wants to
take it.
Hmm.
Regan Dodson (30:11):
I, I'm, I'm passing it to you.
Ok, That's fair.
That's fair.
I think
Chloe Washington (30:19):
it's a hundred percent.
You know, when we were talkingearlier about building those
relationships, the, the firstand foremost relationship you
have to build is with the CMO.
Like, I can confidently say thatKip Trust.
We have conversations about it.
Especially when I started, youknow, that's something I'm like,
oh, I'm new here.
It's, I work fully, remotely.
I don't wanna mess anything up.
Right?
I might know what I'm doing withops, but I don't know, at that
(30:39):
time, I didn't know HubSpot andmm-hmm.
That was a conversation that youhave to have upfront.
How much do you trust me inthese 90 days?
How, what's put a dollar amounton it?
What decisions can I make?
Right now that I'm not gonnalose my job for.
And then you take it from there,right?
Like you really, it starts tobecome organic.
Like you have to have thoseconversations, even going back
to the trust, like I hear itfrom all sides.
(31:01):
I tell my boss, Hey, okay, hereare the 10 things I'm hearing
from marketing.
I can do five.
What are the five?
Are we aligned so that when I'min conversations that you're not
or you're in conversations thatI'm not, that we're aligned as a
unit.
Communication is so key in thisrole.
It is not one of those.
You open your laptop and you sitthere quietly all day if that's
what you're looking for.
Chief of staff is not for you.
(31:22):
Yeah, it sounds like,
Jim Williams (31:22):
sorry, what job is that?
Yeah, Right, right.
Michael Hartmann (31:27):
Right.
But it sounds like what you dois like, you have to have really
sort of, I was gonna say blunt,but that's not like very
explicit conversations aboutlike, what, like, here's what I
think I can go to, how I, howyou feel.
Am I right?
Right.
And then, right.
And then recognizing when yougo.
Like if you're in a situationwhere you're being asked a
question and you know it's gonnabe seen as something that is
(31:48):
representation of the cmo.
Like knowing, like when you cansay like when you could commit
to something, when you can't.
Chloe Washington (31:54):
Yeah.
And it becomes Ari like now I, Ihave no, I don't have that
imposter syndrome.
Like after a while you just,right.
If you have a really good CMO,you're, you have that rhythm and
you just know.
And if you do make a decisionthat you haven't talked about
and it gets back to them,they're like, no, I support.
Like even if they're like inprivate, why'd you do that?
Why do you know?
Going back to the Y?
As long as you have a goodreason, you know they're gonna
have.
(32:14):
Yeah.
Regan Dodson (32:15):
I struggle with that a lot too.
Imposter syndrome.
Um, but I guess my approach is alittle different.
than Chloe's, just becausesometimes I do things and then I
explain the why later.
But because we're so fast pacedhere that sometimes I don't have
the ability to be like, looklike, but he tells me what his
(32:38):
vision is, then I just executeit and then we'll talk about it.
And if they're, if there'sthings that go on along that
way, mistakes or whatever, we'llchat through it.
But most of the time we're insync and I think we're, we're
getting to the point.
I think I know, I know what todo.
I feel confident in that, veryconfident in that.
(32:58):
Um, and so I
Michael Hartmann (32:59):
just run with it.
Well, I like Chloe's Chloe'skind of point.
It was subtle, but I picked upis, you know, what's the amount,
what's the dollar amount of amistake that I can make without
like being really in trouble?
Right.
And I think, yeah, I mean like,I love that, but that's reality,
right?
So I, I mean, I don't think thatI've ever had it.
Conversation like that with myboss, and I'm not in the chief
ceal, but we've taken time whereI've, you know, I feel confident
(33:23):
now that I can go, like I can goengage with a vendor up to a
certain amount and I'm gonna beokay.
Right?
Even if it ends up not goingwell.
But then there are others wheremaybe there's, even if the
dollar amount was low, right?
There's a lot of potentialimpact to the other parts of the
team or the business.
um, from a change management,they brought up change
management.
Reagan like so mm-hmm.
(33:45):
Um, I think that's really likeif you're, if for our listeners
then who are in, you know,thinking like, how can I elevate
myself to be more, seems morestrategic with the rest of the
marketing team?
I think having those very directconversations is one way to do
it.
If you've got a, if you've got aleader who you work with that is
open to that, um, and myexperience has been if you
(34:06):
approach'em, they usually areop, like they.
want that from mm-hmm.
people who report to them.
Yeah.
Mike Rizzo (34:12):
Mm-hmm.
I agree.
Yep.
I had, so
Jim Williams (34:15):
I would also say, um, go ahead.
Sorry.
Go for it.
Oh.
Uh, yeah, so I would just saylike, because I'm, I'm just
going back and I kind ofreviewed some of the notes from
that, that, um, you know, thatpanel discussion we had last
Paul, and this this point cameup over and over again, which
is, uh, trust and context,right.
And the two are totally.
(34:35):
you have to have this absolutetrust between the chiefest
staff.
Mm-hmm.
and the cmo.
And even though CMO may trusttheir head of demand and field
marketing, whatever, they trustthem to do that role, which is
very different from trustingsomeone to help manage all roles
and particularly the conflictsbetween roles and conflicts
outside of the function ofmarketing.
(34:57):
So that trust is important incontext.
It's just, it's a little bit oflike being there from the
beginning is kind of important.
Right.
Under.
what were, what were we tryingto achieve as an organization?
What is marketing's role intrying to achieve that?
What is important to the CMO andthe C E O?
You know, like where does theCMO have concerns about the
(35:17):
strategy and how is it playing?
Where do they have concernsabout the people behind the
strategy?
All those things.
You kind of have to have thatcontext.
You gotta have the trust inorder to get that context.
But then once you have thatcontext, You're in a much, much,
much better position to act andspeak on behalf of the office of
the cmo.
Mm-hmm.
that that came up over and overagain in comments.
(35:38):
Yeah.
Mike Rizzo (35:39):
Makes what?
Regan Dodson (35:40):
what do you say to the, the marketers that will go,
even though you've discussedthis with either your chief of
staff or someone like, kind ofin my role, or vice versa?
Maybe Chloe, this is a questionfor you where you guys, you're
rolling out a process for theCMO and then the marketers are
like, no, and they, I'm, I'mgonna go tell the cmo, or I'm
(36:03):
gonna ask him, or you know, likekind of going behind you and
just kind of like, notunderstanding, you know, why
you're the one that's rollingout this process.
Like what do you do in that
Chloe Washington (36:15):
position?
I've let them go.
Ask him.
I mean, I, I'm not going to getgo, go, go ask dad.
Like, you know, like, he'sprobably gonna have the same
answer for you, you know?
But you also want to, going backto that communication, have
those one-on-ones with them andunderstand it.
Because that's not to say peopledon't have a good point.
Maybe there's something that youdid miss.
(36:36):
but they need to reallyunderstand, or at least, you
know, a lot of times I've, I'verolled out a couple of different
tools and processes and ofcourse they're pushback.
I wanna know the why.
I wanna know the why.
Making sure you have that, likethat PowerPoint slide or that
Google slide, like here you go.
Here's my why.
Like everything I roll out, orevery process I roll out, I five
bullet points.
This is what this is, this iswhat it's not.
(36:56):
Tell me what the gaps are.
I also preview before things.
I don't wait until things are ahundred percent polished to
tell, especially our directorplus population or our manager.
So they can start to ask thequestions.
They can, a lot of times theyget excited about it.
The directors wanna tell themanagers, and the managers
talking to the ic.
So they kind of, it's like aripple effect.
Mm-hmm.
And I think that that helps too.
(37:16):
And I also, I don't, I do notwant to be a gatekeeper.
I don't gatekeeper informationeither way.
Like, if Kip said, no, tell meeverything.
Okay, well, here's what's goingon.
You know, in the same wayotherwise.
And I think it, it helps me togain trust here.
Like, I don't mind if someonedoesn't like my answer.
feels the need that they wannatalk to Kip or to talk to both
of us.
(37:37):
I love that.
Mike Rizzo (37:38):
I, I, I just wanted to say that I think there's
something super refreshing aboutthis idea that, you know, I, I
know we've said trust andtransparency and all these
things a bunch of times, butlike, it's very rare that you
have the opportunity as anindividual contributor, whether
(37:58):
you're, you know, uh, entrylevel up to director, et cetera.
um, it's very rare that you cango to somebody who can hear you,
uh, try to translate what it isthat you're, what you're trying
to accomplish to mm-hmm.
to maybe an executive leader.
Um, and then, and then Chloe,like, I imagine there's gonna be
(38:20):
times in your role where, um,the, you know, KIPP in, in, in
his case and, you know, maybefor others in chief of staff
roles, y you're like, well, thelast time we talked about this,
you said this was the thing.
You said, this is what mattered.
this is what I've beencommunicating.
And so like, there's actuallythat level of like almost a
(38:42):
requirement to me.
It sounds like, you know, cuz I,I interact directly with startup
CEOs all the time where it'slike they want you to.
Hold on a second.
you know, like
Michael Hartmann (38:54):
you're, it feels like call bullshit on
stuff a little bit.
Yeah.
Like, it feels like you're
Mike Rizzo (38:58):
going a different direction.
The last time we talked, this iswhat we were saying was, was the
thing.
And you know, granted it's notfully rolled out, but like,
where, where are we?
Where are we crossing pathshere?
And I feel like that is sorefreshing for both, on both
sides, for the leader to havemm-hmm.
Yep.
Then, you know, and, and, andthe individual contributors too.
(39:20):
Otherwise, it's, I feel likeit's like a, a combative thing.
yeah.
It's not like a conversationyou're trying to work out.
I don't know.
So
Regan Dodson (39:27):
does that
Chloe Washington (39:28):
happen with you?
Yeah.
That goes back to the backbone.
You have to be able to tellthem.
I said that in my interview andafter I hung up at the Zoom
call, I was like, oh God, Ididn't get the job.
I, I told them, I was like, I'mnot a a yes person.
I'm not combative, but I bringexperience to this role.
Like you have to get to a pointin your career where you're sure
of, I might not know X, Y, Zcompany, but I know what I'm
(39:50):
doing.
I know the process, I know themethodology, and you have to
trust that if you're going tohire someone into this role that
you're never gonna trust, don'tbother getting a chief of staff
because it's not gonna bebeneficial to, to.
Mike Rizzo (40:02):
Yeah.
Yeah.
It sounds like hold, like chiefof staff, hold me accountable.
I'll hold you accountable forholding the rest of the team
accountable to holding meaccountable.
Jim Williams (40:10):
Okay.
Michael Hartmann (40:12):
Yeah.
I, I, I, I had a scenario whereI worked for somebody wasn't, it
was not head of marketing, butit was next level down a couple
jobs ago where we had a kindarelationship where I would like,
we both like would hold eachother accountable and give
direct feedback and I'd callaround on stuff.
It's to the point where we werein a group meeting one time and
we were like very obviously noton the same page and disagreeing
(40:36):
about something, and we ended upmaking a decision and I'd had
people come up to me and waslike, is everything okay?
I'm like, yeah, why?
Like, like, we, like, this iswhat we should do.
Right?
We should have these kinds ofhonest conversations.
Ultimately, I was like, I didn'tagree with that.
What?
What she was saying.
We had a conversation about it.
Ultimately, her decision.
(40:57):
And I had my peace and we, I'mgonna go support it, right?
Like, to me that was what thevalue was like, and it was just
really interesting to, to thereaction of other people that
were happened to be in the roomthat that was like, that's so a
normal, like not a normal thing.
You can be
Chloe Washington (41:12):
honest and respectful.
Regan Dodson (41:14):
Yeah.
You can not mutually exclusive,
Mike Rizzo (41:16):
you can be honest and respectful and I think
depending on your desire in yourfunction.
aspirations to want to, to havethat li I mean, it's stressful,
like, let's be real.
It's stressful, right?
Like you're, you're, you'resigning up at, at a chief of
staff role, you're signing upfor a level of stress that will
ebb and flow in very extremeorder.
(41:38):
Right.
I imagine.
I've never been to your staff,but I That sums it up
Chloe Washington (41:41):
pretty well.
Yeah.
know you
Regan Dodson (41:43):
like
Mike Rizzo (41:44):
it.
Yeah.
And, and, and there's gonna bemoments where there's like hard
conflict and Right.
You know, and you're dealingwith that and your, your, your
spine is gonna feel like it's onfire.
Right.
And your whole self is sweatingor whatever's going on.
And, and that's, that's superstressful.
And people sometimes don't wantto do that.
They just wanna be told what todo.
Mm-hmm.
just, Hey, this is not the roleto do that.
(42:05):
Yeah.
Michael Hartmann (42:06):
Like, I wanna make a good.
Mike Rizzo (42:08):
I want to know what you want to do and I wanted to
go do it.
Just tell me, tell me what you
Michael Hartmann (42:11):
wanna do.
Know what to do.
if I just ignore it, it'll goaway.
It's almost, it almost neverhappens if you
Chloe Washington (42:19):
just ignore it.
It's gonna be two times the
Regan Dodson (42:20):
problem in six months,
Michael Hartmann (42:21):
right before Right.
Mike Rizzo (42:24):
All right, before we get, cuz we're cover up on time
before we get to the end ofthis, and this has been so
wonderful.
I do want to hear Chloe.
what were your, like don't, nosecret sauce or anything like
that, obviously but like whatwere your 90 days like if
somebody stepped into that?
Like did you come in with anopinion of any kind?
(42:46):
Did you already know coming inthat there was gonna be
something you had to tackle?
How did that go and, and thenlike what were the sort of first
90, 180 days really thinking.
Uh, yeah, and we're, we'retalking about a pretty big
enterprise, so I imagine it'llbe different in other places,
but it'd be interesting just tohear
Chloe Washington (43:03):
there was a lot of, oh my God, what did I,
whoa, can I do this?
I mean, you know, we're in themiddle of a pandemic at the
time, fully remote.
Hadn't met anyone in person,wasn't a chief of staff in my
previous role.
I had the transferrable skills.
I was able to obviously get thisrole, but I had a lot.
Ideas of things that I assumedprobably needed to be like I
(43:24):
wanted to do.
Quick wins.
Quick hits, like grab the lowhanging fruit, build trust,
build relationships, just talkto people and understand.
Um, there were people that hadbeen here for years and years
and there were also new people.
So trying to bridge that gap of,well, at my old company we did
this, versus, well, this is howwe've always done this.
So trying to figure out therhythms and the themes.
I think it took, I would say achief of staff role to really.
(43:47):
Really get in.
It's, it has, it's been verydifferent than my other roles.
Like I felt like in projectprogram management roles, 90
days I'm in, I'm going Chief ofstaff.
It's a lot of listening.
It's fix this thing, startlistening about this thing, fix
this thing, start listening, andthen the floodgate's open and
you're like, okay, I'm planningnext year's budget.
All right, great.
You know, there's just like,just figure it out.
(44:07):
But it was a lot of feeling likeI was on a slippery slope and
trying to find the small winsfor the first several months.
Mike Rizzo (44:15):
That's really
Chloe Washington (44:15):
interesting.
I'm super, yeah, super helpful.
I'm still here, so I didn't,
Regan Dodson (44:18):
we're good.
Still having fun,
Chloe Washington (44:21):
you know?
Right.
Enjoying it.
Still enjoying it.
Definitely.
Regan Dodson (44:24):
You're killing it.
You're killing it.
Thank you,
Michael Hartmann (44:28):
Well, good.
Well, I, I think Mike hintedthis, like, we're gonna probably
have to wrap up here, but beforewe go, I guess I'll, I'll open
up a little bit.
Is there anything that we hadn'ttalked about that you think is
really important for, like, ifpeople, our listen.
primarily marketing ops folks.
Like if they were interested inthis kind of role, like what
would you, like any last bit ofthing be, you know, that they
should, they should know about?
(44:51):
Maybe go around the horn.
Chloe, you first, how aboutthat?
Chloe Washington (44:54):
Apply for the role anyway, no matter what the
job description says.
A lot of times companies don'tknow really what they want
achieve of staff, so they'regonna put some bullets on some.
and you can, you should still ahundred percent apply.
Show why you're valuable, whatyour ideas are, and then your
role know your role's gonnachange every 90 days.
The fundamental role is thesame, but what you're working
on, who you're talking to, whatyou're doing, it's like a new
(45:16):
job every 90 days.
And I love
Regan Dodson (45:17):
that.
Michael Hartmann (45:17):
It's like an internal consultant.
Chloe Washington (45:19):
Yes, very much so.
Yeah,
Jim Williams (45:20):
that's right.
Michael Hartmann (45:23):
Reagan, any.
Regan Dodson (45:25):
Yeah, I think with being a marketing operations
professional in general, likethere, there is an executive,
um, Ceiling that you can get to,right?
Like you can get there.
Um, if you're a campaignoperations specialist or if
you're a marketing operationsspecialist, like you can get to
(45:47):
a director position, you can getto a chief of staff position.
Like marketing Ops is not thesame marketing ops it was a year
ago, two years ago, and it looksdifferent and different
companies, right?
I encourage you to really.
First of all, join marketingops.com and then also Um,
(46:09):
connect with other marketing opsprofessionals on LinkedIn or in
the community and just ask themwhat they're doing.
I think that's really good to,to build a rapport with other
marketing ops professionals.
Michael Hartmann (46:21):
Jim, any final thoughts?
Jim Williams (46:24):
Yeah, a couple.
I mean, first of all, this is agreat discussion, so thank you.
I learned a lot, agreed on this.
I think that, um, whilemarketing ops is, you know,
clearly established itself as acritical function, it's the
thing that everyone's investingin.
You know, even down economy,invest, marketing ops, et
cetera.
The path to an executive role isstill not as clear as it could
(46:47):
be.
Like if you're a marketing opperson today, like how do you
actually, if you want to becomea CMO or a COO more likely, how
do you get there?
It's not quite as clear.
It's just cuz it's relativelystill.
And I would say that this is onepath to get there because it
gets you to that ex executiveexposure.
You take on a much wider arrayof challenges that, uh, you
(47:09):
know, across many differentfunctions.
Um, but you are going to haveto.
Sacrificed your love of techslightly.
Slightly.
Yes.
You know what I mean?
Mm-hmm.
like that's why out it's the yyything and you know, and you ask
a couple of those whys, just getthe first two whys not even
five.
And eventually, you're nottalking about tech anymore,
(47:31):
right?
You're actually starting to talkabout strategy.
Um, and that that's a key thingfor someone to consider.
Michael Hartmann (47:38):
I'm really glad
Mike Rizzo (47:39):
you called that out cuz I meant to say that earlier
when it, when it re sort ofhinted, uh, at it a little bit
ago.
Um, I love some of the I lovethat you said that.
Yeah.
Naomi on our team is alwaystalking about how much she does
love the tech.
right?
Yeah.
She loves a tech and sometimeswhen she gets pulled too far
away from it, she gets a littlebu like bummed out.
I don't wanna put a bunch ofwords in her mouth, but I have
(48:00):
heard her say that before.
Mm-hmm.
Um, and it sounds like this isone of those situations where
it's like you better be prettyready to walk away from the tech
Jim Williams (48:09):
Well, well, who knows, man.
You know, maybe in that role, inyour head you have a workflow,
you're creating an financialYeah,
Regan Dodson (48:16):
totally.
Chloe Washington (48:17):
Oh, definitely.
Tech, I still, I still wanna getin as much as I can.
Like how can tech, me too.
How can I make tech strategytechnical.
All right.
Yeah.
Yes.
Yes.
Regan Dodson (48:26):
I love the tech too.
I, it's something that I reallymiss, but my marketing
operations manager is our techwiz, our HubSpot wiz.
Our Acadia wiz now.
So I just hear it through thegrapevine, um, and, and support
him in the advisory setting.
But the tech is the best part.
I will say
Michael Hartmann (48:45):
nah, I, I am made a point where I have to
tell, like when somebody asks meto, to help on the team, I'm
like, okay, as long as you knowthat I'm gonna be the slowest
one on the team at doingsomething wrong,
Regan Dodson (48:56):
So
Michael Hartmann (48:58):
totally fair.
Just not in there every day.
Well, good.
This has been, I agree, liketotally.
This was a fun conversation.
It feels like we just scratchedthe surface.
Uh, like I think there's otherkind of paths we could go down.
So maybe we can continue this,uh, conversation somewhere else.
But, um, thank you so much.
All of you, ops Pza is where weshould continue.
Mapa Pza.
Mike Rizzo (49:18):
Let's do a panel.
Let's have all three of you on apanel at Mos and Palooza.
That's a thing.
Love to do
Chloe Washington (49:23):
it.
Yeah,
Regan Dodson (49:23):
let's do it.
Let's go.
That
Michael Hartmann (49:25):
would, that'd be great.
Um, so a, if, if pokes wannakeep up with you, like go around
the horn here, would you guyschoose, like where, where can
they kind of connect with you orkeep up with what you're doing?
Chloe Washington (49:36):
LinkedIn for me.
Definitely.
All right.
Chloe Washington so easy tofind.
Regan Dodson (49:43):
LinkedIn for me, not a lot of Reagans in
marketing ops.
Yeah,
Jim Williams (49:48):
LinkedIn.
Not easy to find.
Jim Williams
Mike Rizzo (49:56):
I did find.
I did find you.
I, I, I just connected actually.
Awesome.
Thank you.
Michael Hartmann (50:03):
Mike.
Mike has, Mike has a little bitof a d d.
Yeah, I do.
I just, I multitask.
Mike Rizzo (50:07):
I can't help it.
Michael Hartmann (50:10):
Yeah.
Thank you so much.
Really
Mike Rizzo (50:12):
appreciate it.
Regan Dodson (50:13):
Thank you, y'all.
Thank you.
Jim Williams (50:14):
Thank you very much.
It was a great conversation.
Michael Hartmann (50:16):
Thanks everyone, and we will see you
next time.
Bye.
Bye everybody.
All right.
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