Text us your thoughts on the episode or the show!
In this episode, Ops Cast Co-Host Naomi Liu leads the talk about all things women including superpowers and advocating for leadership. She is joined by guests Kacyn Goranson, Vivian Chan, and Leah Miranda.
Tune in to hear:
- Their Super Hero origin story and subsequent super powers.
- The differences between the way women approach problem solving in the workplace?
- Why female leadership matters to them.
- Female leaders / role models they look up to and why.
Episode Brought to You By MO Pros
The #1 Community for Marketing Operations Professionals
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Naomi Liu (00:00):
Welcome to another episode of OpsCast by the Mo
(00:02):
Pros, powered bymarketingops.com.
I am Naomi Liu, and today I amnot joined by my co-host, Mike
Rizzo and Michael Hartmannbecause today's episode is a
Woman's takeover episode, and Iam joined by my lovely guest,
Vivian Chan, case, Goranson andLeah Miranda, please say,
Vivian Chan (00:21):
Hello?
Leah Miranda (00:23):
Hey everyone.
Naomi Liu (00:24):
Before we get started, I wanted to take a
minute to introduce my guests.
Um, Kaycn is a results-orientedmarketer with a background in
marketing, operations, growth,and business strategies.
She also has over 13 years ofB2B experience across several
areas of marketing, from socialmedia to paid search and life
cycle to lead scoring.
(00:45):
Her passions are aroundoptimizing the MarTech stack
lead processes and marketinganalytics.
Vivian Chan is actually a secondtime POD podcast guest, but for
those of you who don't know her,she is an entrepreneur and
senior technology executiveleader who has been involved in
marketing and partner channelsfor three very different waves
(01:06):
of disruptive technologies,those being analytics, cloud and
ar.
She has been named one of GlobalMills 2021 best executives and
brings more than 20 years ofexperience scaling companies.
She's currently leading globalintegrated campaigns for
operational excellence atServiceNow.
And last but not least, LeahMiranda is passionate about
(01:28):
using technology to meet peoplewhere they are, and has garnered
over a decade of lifecyclemarketing experience, including
startups, fortune 500 companies,and most recently leading the
lifecycle team at sap.
When she's not coding emails orbuilding flowcharts, you can
find Leah in Nashville,Tennessee drinking coffee and
reading a book with her wife andwell, dog ladies, thank you for
(01:50):
joining us today and I'm excitedto chat with you all.
That was definitely a mouthful.
Um, super impressed with, youknow, all of, um, the
compliments, accomplishmentsthat all of you have had so far
in your career.
And,
Vivian Chan (02:02):
so
Naomi Liu (02:02):
jumping right into things, uh, when we were talking
about recording this woman'stakeover episode and what topic
or hook we wanted to shape thisrecording around, an idea that
came up was women and oursuperpowers.
Now, I don't know about you.
But no superhero story comeswithout the origin story.
So I'd like to ask all of you,what is your origin story and
(02:25):
subsequent superpower?
Uh, Vivian, I'm gonna pick onyou for this because you were
kind of the one who originallycame up with this, with this
hook.
So would love to hear your, yourorigin story and superpower
Vivian Chan (02:37):
Sure.
Um, yeah, my, I would say thetheme of my.
Story is really around thisnotion around having a
non-linear career.
Um, if I look at, you know, thelast 20 years of my career, it's
been really guided by mycuriosity.
I started my career as a, as aco-op student in a startup
(02:59):
company, um, that subsequentlyscaled after three acquisitions
into a.
Enterprise software company, uh,called sap.
And so ended up doing a numberof years in in from scale up to,
to corporate.
Naomi Liu (03:13):
That was business objects, right?
Bob,
Vivian Chan (03:15):
that, yeah, that was, it went from crystal
decisions, business objects tosap and um, every three to six
months we had a differentcompany.
And so that was one of the, thebig educations of my career.
Um, but after about 14 years ofit, I, I got kind of tired of
it.
I was like not excited aboutmarketing.
(03:35):
I realized that I needed to takea tech sabbatical and ended up,
um, moving to London tovolunteer for a climate change
organization for, um, a coupleof months, um, to learn a little
bit more about social impactcauses and whatnot.
Um, then ended up, um, in highereducation.
I ended up at my alma mater.
Uh, starting a innovationinitiative there.
(03:58):
Then dived into the world ofstartups, starting up my own ar
vr company with a co-founder andnow I'm back in corporate again
at ServiceNow.
So it really kind of goes fullcircle.
And so I would say my originstory is really around one where
I've continued to follow mycuriosity and my personal
priorities that change from timeto.
(04:19):
Um, in terms of superpower, um,I would say that, um, my husband
always says that, um, you know,from his observation, he, he
says that I'm able to makefriends via human connection.
And so, um, I think the abilityto find the thing that we have
in common is something that, um,I like to do.
(04:40):
And, uh, another sort of funfact is I'm always asking,
Naomi Liu (04:46):
That's awesome.
I, so for those of you who don'tknow, like Vivian and I have
known each other for quite along time, I wanna say a decade.
Vivian Chan (04:53):
Yeah.
Naomi Liu (04:53):
a decade, and something that's always
impressed me about you is that Ifeel like you are somebody who's
an excellent listener and you'realways asking, you know, more
information, you ask the hardquestions.
Like I just really, I always,every time we connect and we
catch up, I always just kind ofleave feeling like super fresh.
I'm like, wow, you know, that'sa different take that I've, you
know, I've never, I've neverseen, um, or heard of or thought
(05:15):
of things that way, and so I.
I wanted to shout you up becauseI really enjoy, you know,
letting, I just wanna let youknow that I really enjoy having,
you know, picking your brain andhaving those types
Vivian Chan (05:24):
Thanks, Naomi.
Yeah, no, I, um, I've, I'velearned to be a better listener.
I have to tell you that thatdidn't come naturally.
I, I really had to learn overtime how to, how to do that.
So thank you for that.
I, I really appreciate it.
Okay,
Naomi Liu (05:36):
So I want to pick on Leah next.
Leah would love to hear yourorigin story and, uh, what your
superhero is.
Superhero power is rather.
Leah Miranda (05:48):
exactly.
So, uh, I would say like allheroes, my origin story involves
a struggle, you know, the worldmyself.
Okay, so it's not really thatdramatic.
But as a 20 year old withstudent loans, it definitely
felt that dramatic.
Uh, I actually went to school tobe a social studies teacher, uh,
and you might be wondering whyam I on a MOS Pro uh, podcast?
(06:09):
But here we.
And so I, I was a social studiesteacher for a while and then,
you know, like in any good herostory, the villain shows up for
me.
That was 2008, and specificallythe economy.
And I was suddenly faced with,oh no, I need to get another
job.
Uh, so I temp at a lot ofdifferent places and, uh, I
figured marketing seemed likefun.
(06:31):
They always seemed like the coolkids.
Whenever I, I talk to, My, uh,fellow, uh, colleagues, uh, and
so finally, um, Michelle l I'mgonna shout you out.
Uh, took a chance on me nothaving a marketing background
and gave me a position in anevent marketing role, and I
absolutely love it.
I fell in love with, uh,marketing and it was, it was a
(06:52):
really great time.
From there, uh, my career hasexpanded and I've been able to
work with a couple of differentstartups, which I think was
really fun.
Um, especially being young in mycareer that I was able to, with
all startups, you get to wearmany different hats and I really
took advantage of that.
So I was able to sit in content.
I did a little stint and paidemail marketing life cycle.
(07:15):
And eventually kind of wound upin marketing ops and life
cycles, kind of where I, um,ended up really truly, I think,
thriving, uh, and really lovingwhat I do.
So with that, I think, um, thatjourney, my, my superpower, I
would have to say is probably myhumor.
And while I think I can telllike a really great dad joke, I
(07:37):
think it goes beyond just beingable to crack a joke or being,
you know, quote unquote.
I've also realized I've setmyself up to be humorous in this
podcast.
So just, you know, manage one's
Naomi Liu (07:47):
I mean, I, I feel like I wanna ask you what your
favorite dad joke is, but youknow, I don't wanna put you on
the spot there, right?
Leah Miranda (07:54):
um, yeah.
Yeah.
Uh, let's see.
Uh, favorite dad joke.
Um, yeah, I think I'd have tosay, uh, in my early twenties I
was addicted to the hokey pokey.
Um, but I've turned myself.
Naomi Liu (08:08):
Oh my gosh.
Leah Miranda (08:10):
horrible, but I love a good dad joke.
Naomi Liu (08:14):
Oh my
Leah Miranda (08:14):
Um, I know there's someone out there that also
appreciates this.
Um, so yeah, so it, it goesbeyond being able to be quote
unquote funny.
Humor for me, uh, allows me tolaugh.
It helps me bring joy into mywork, uh, to the people that I
work with.
It opens up a human side tobusiness and it allows for you
(08:35):
to have better connections,better interactions, and really
create better experiences withinthe workplace.
Naomi Liu (08:41):
I love that.
I, I think that's so importantbecause I feel like sometimes,
especially in the work that wedo, it can get quite cumbersome
and technical and super seriousand, you know, the ability to
find humor in it, and alsotaking a step back and being
like, guys, okay, we're notcuring cancer.
This is not like covid vaccinetrials.
Like this is, you know, it's allstill very important.
But I think, um, yeah,definitely finding the humor in
(09:04):
that, especially when you're,you know, problem solving.
Doing things with, um, like mindsharing with coworkers and, you
know, you're putting your headstogether and you're wanting to
approach a problem.
I'm curious, like, do you havean example of, um, uh, using
humor in a workplace environmentwhere, you know, you're working
(09:25):
a group environment or you'retrying to solve a problem?
Like do you have a example forthat?
Leah Miranda (09:30):
Um, yeah, I think what's, what's great about humor
is, uh, I like to joke.
It's not Maybelline, you know,she's not born with it.
It's definitely a muscle thatanyone can develop.
And so for me, I think it'sbeing able to just to be able to
laugh at yourself.
A lot of what we do can be trialand error.
Uh, we make mistakes along theway.
And I think, um, having that,that humor, that joy kind of,
(09:52):
that, that comfort to say, Hey,I've made a mistake and let's
all learn from it, um, is, isone thing that I really enjoy.
Uh, the other thing too is just,it's nice to set the tone.
I think humor can sometimes havelike a darker.
To it.
So, you know, you don't want itto turn into your crypto tonight
just to, to keep that superherotheme going.
Uh, so, you know, I think ifhumor, if you're using that to
(10:14):
bring joy and openness into yourwork environment and to kind of,
you know, be able to laugh atyourself, um, is, is kind of how
I bring it and how it, uh,personifies in my work life.
Naomi Liu (10:27):
definitely.
I love that.
And so, kind of piggybacking offof that and staying on the topic
of problem solving and, and awoman's approach, I'd love to
hear from you, Caseon, like whatare, what do you feel are some
differences between the waywomen approach problem solving
in the work?
Kacyn Goranson (10:43):
Yeah, so I'm gonna definitely preface this
with this as a total, totalgeneralization.
So wanna acknowledge there areexceptions, some women.
Tend to approach problems likemen, and some men tend to
approach problems like women.
Um, but I think Leah actuallykind of hit on it with her, her
humor, comment, and even thehuman side to business.
(11:07):
I think generally speaking, mentend to look at any problems.
What's the short.
Path.
What's the, the quickest way toget to write or fixed or
whatever The result we're tryingto get is where women tend to
partially because just the wayour brains work, we can
multitask.
(11:27):
We are literally geneticallywired to multitask where men
cannot.
Multitask as well.
We see the forest, we don't justsee the single tree.
So we're able to think throughthe people angle and how do we
best get there?
Who are the people who can getus there?
Even, is it a skill set?
Is it something personally thatthey've experienced before?
(11:49):
We pull all of that in insteadof just this person moves
quicker, where this person hasalways got me, you know, through
the hard times in business.
I'm gonna trust.
Women can tend to think of who'sgonna get us there the best way,
the quickest, the most efficientway, but without taking
shortcuts or just necessarilygoing straight through the
(12:10):
forest, but what's the best wayand really solve that problem.
So basically I think, I thinkwomen are just really good
multitaskers, but they rememberthe human.
Naomi Liu (12:22):
Yeah.
I love that.
I, I feel, I, I totally agreewith and resonate with
everything that you've.
That, and I just, I feel likethis is a good segue into the
next question, which is, um,female leaders and role models
that we look up to.
And before I, you know, call onVivian, I'm gonna call on you,
but before I kind of call on,uh, you, I, I also wanna share,
you know, what is a femaleleader role model that I look up
(12:43):
to, uh, personally, I'm a hugefan of, Sandy Learner, uh, for
those of you who don't know whoshe is, she was a co-founder of
a company.
You might know Cisco, and whenshe left Cisco, she went on to
start.
A cosmetics company.
Um, you might have heard of it,urban Decay.
It's kind of in all of the, it'sin Sephoras in all of the
(13:03):
department stores.
It's quite a drastic change fromCisco to Urban Decay.
But, you know, when she soldUrban Decay to, um, I believe it
was the Louis Vuitton group, um,she then started a sustainable
organic, Agriculture farm inVirginia, and she's an
inspiration to me, not only as awoman in tech, but also as a
woman in business.
(13:24):
Right?
You know, she was fired from thecompany that she founded Cisco,
but went on to reinvent herself.
Um, I'm super impressed by herresiliency and her ability to
adapt.
Um, it's an inspiration to meand something that I really look
f um, really look up to.
So, That being said, uh, Vivian,you're also somebody I actually
really look up to.
You know, when we first met, Ithink I was like a little bit in
(13:46):
awe of you.
I was like, wow, there's thislike woman who has everything,
all her shit together and, youknow, I'd love to be her friend
and like love to learn more andpick her brain.
So, um, I'd love to hear fromyou.
Who do you, uh, see as a femaleleader role?
Mo role model, and who do youlook up to?
Vivian Chan (14:00):
yeah, I, I just think that we learn from.
Our bosses and we learn from ourpeers.
And so I think in so many waysit's, it's learning through
observation and learning,through collaboration and, and
sort of two women stand out, uh,quite a bit for me.
Um, Carolyn Cox, who now runsAmerica's Marketing and at
ServiceNow, but we know weworked together in two other
(14:23):
companies prior.
She really set the tone around,uh, being a leader that drives.
Um, you know, she gets her, sheknows her shit and she's very
outcomes oriented andinefficient, and she didn't feel
like, you know, she would needto talk or sound smart or
eloquent.
She, what she had to do wasabout impact.
(14:45):
And so I really loved this no BSapproach to, to driving value.
And so I've kind of kept thatmodel in my whole career.
I'm here to create impact, um,not to look good, but to, to
make the right decisions for theorganization.
And the second role model thatI've had is, is Joy Johnson, um,
from Simon Fraser University.
She's from the higher educationsector.
(15:05):
Um, she's now the president of,of the university.
She was someone who had thisincredible ability to make
everyone feel seen and heard.
And so when she would talk tothe group, she really took time
to listen.
But when she spoke, she reallyhad the final word and, and.
Uh, a sense of bringing it alltogether.
(15:27):
And so, again, this sort of, um,very co-creative approach was,
was something that, um, I tookfrom her.
So I think we take a little bitfrom, from different people at
different times, whether they'reyour boss, um, or your peers.
Naomi Liu (15:40):
I totally agree, and I'm jotting these people down so
I can look them up later afterthis recording.
Um, Leah, I'd love to hear fromyou as well, any female leaders
or role models you look up to.
Leah Miranda (15:51):
Um, yeah.
So, uh, this, this is gonnasound super lame, but I think
Case and Case, uh, can attest tothis, but, uh, the person I
really look up to is, is my.
Name's Taryn Driggers.
Uh, and she's uh, a c-suiteleader in, in healthcare.
And the reason I look up to heris because she was one of the
(16:13):
first female leaders that I hadexposure to.
I had a lot of male bosses kindof as I was coming up in my
career that really led withempathy.
And that, that just was inreally like stark contrast to
the leaders that I had beenexposed to.
And it was something that, youknow, uh, I had the opportunity,
we worked together for a shortstint and I sat in on a meeting
(16:35):
with her and just was like inawe of like, oh, this is a new
way you can interact with your,Your team and, and, and lead
with this, this underlying ofempathy.
And so, um, yeah, it's just,it's something that, uh, a skill
set that I, I identified withand something she instills in
her team as she helps developfuture healthcare leaders.
(16:58):
Um, so yeah.
Um, I think.
Think.
Yeah, I think for me it's justidentifying those women in, um,
it, it can be as simple as justthose little interactions.
You know, I'm in awe of the, thewomen on this, this podcast.
Um, you know, you all bring sucha, an amazing perspective and
experience and, you know, Ithink it's, it's key to.
(17:19):
To take those interactions andsay, okay, you know, dissect
them a bit.
Like, why was that meaningful tome?
Like what did they do?
You know, Vivian was talkingabout did they make that
connection?
And I think that's where empathycomes in.
You put yourself in thatperson's shoes and you say,
Okay.
What you're telling me is veryimportant to you right now, and
it's gonna be important to me asa leader.
(17:40):
Uh, and, you know, you, you usethat to build trust with your
team.
So, so yeah.
So I think, like I said, my wifeand then, um, I just try to, if
I see a positive behavior orpositive interaction, I try to
say, how can I, um, bring thatinto my own leadership style?
Naomi Liu (17:56):
They're all layers, right?
I think we, we um, we, wedefinitely learn from the people
that are around us and thepeople that, you know, report to
us or manage us directly, andit's just something that over
time, it's definitely a learningexperience.
I love that.
Um, Kason would love to hearfrom you, uh, female leader role
model you look up to.
Kacyn Goranson (18:14):
So it would be a previous CMO of mine.
Her name's Kerin.
Um, she was the only.
Female, not only seniorexecutive on the C-suite, but I
would say VP or hire at thiscompany, traditional financial
services company.
She was never once intimidatedto be the only female.
(18:36):
She showed up to the tablewhether she had a chair or
whether she had to, you know,stand in the room.
She was not afraid to turn thatinto a standing desk, but she
really earned her spot.
But she looked out at the restof the team and helped us earn
our chairs too, or at least ourspot in the room.
Um, and that was not just forwomen.
(18:57):
She helped, she helped the guyson the team, kind of how do you
get into that room as well?
So now she owns her ownbusiness, which so just
continues to inspire me that shehad her own faith to go do her
own thing.
Naomi Liu (19:11):
Yeah, I love that.
So something that I am gettingthe sense of with a lot of the
female leaders or role modelsthat you all look up to is that
they're quite, um, they're quitepowerful women in terms of being
very high up in the companiesand the organizations that
they're in.
Um, and.
That kind of piggybacks into thenext question around female
thought leadership.
So I would love to hear fromyou, Vivian, why you feel that
(19:34):
female thought leadership is soimportant, um, in, you know, the
working world, corporate life.
Would love to hear your thoughtson
Vivian Chan (19:42):
yeah, I think hearing from female leaders on
their experiences I think arereally important because I think
sometimes the challenges that weexperience on how we're
perceived seeing how peoplerelate to us, um, can be.
Gender and, and even race,right?
There's dimensions on, on, onperception.
Um, there's unconscious bias andit's, it's a real thing.
(20:03):
And so being able to kind ofshare how we've, um, overcome
that, how we've worked throughthat, um, I think is important.
You know, as, as an example, youknow, by, by virtue of podcasts
like this, that where we sharewhat's working, what's not, I, I
think we learn through that.
Um, as an example, just veryrecently actually, I was just at
(20:23):
a Christmas party.
Um, I often get people assumingthat I'm much younger than I am,
and so by default they'realready judging my level of
knowledge and whatnot.
And so it's something that I'vehad to work through throughout
my whole career.
And so instead of letting itdefine me, I, I think, you know,
you kind of ha you, you'reaware.
(20:43):
That, that bias exists and youneed to continue to just show up
in a way that demonstrates yourskills and experiences.
I'm always aware of that, butwith that said, I show up not
trying to prove my age, but to,you know, but try to bring my
experience to the table.
And so, um, that comes in theforms of asking good questions,
(21:05):
um, speaking up when I need to,um, but not always speaking up
for the sake of speaking up.
And, um, how I priorit.
What I do.
So I think how we show up, um,ultimately manifests in how
people see us over time.
But in the beginning, thesefirst impressions, um, you know,
start us off on a, on adifferent playing field.
(21:26):
So,
Naomi Liu (21:27):
Yeah, I think, um, I think for all of us on this, on
this recording, um, some of thethings that you've just said,
especially around theassumptions that are.
And the judgment before peopleeven really get to know you.
You've put it in a way that, um,is much more eloquent than I
could have ever said.
Um, it kind of ties intofeelings for myself at least, of
imposter syndrome.
Right.
(21:47):
So, um, I would love to hearfrom, uh, Yulia about do you
ever feel, especially in, uh,the working environment imposter
syndrome, what does that looklike to you?
Um, how do you combat that?
Um, you know, is it somethingyou still struggle with or what
does that look.
Leah Miranda (22:05):
Yeah, lots of feelings on this.
So I have proudly sufferedimposter syndrome at every
single job role that I've everhad, and I, I honestly think
that it will never matter howmany years I have under my belt
or experience.
I think I'll imposter syndromewill always be there.
And for me, that's not such abad thing.
(22:25):
Um, I try to use, again, humorand reframing to combat those
feelings.
Uh, for example, I like to put aname to my imposter syndrome.
Uh, I affectionately call herBeatrice, and I know sounds
ridiculous, but.
If
Naomi Liu (22:40):
I love that actually.
That's
Leah Miranda (22:42):
ha Yeah, it's great.
Uh, if you can't stop havingthose imposter thoughts because
you, you can't, you can't reallycontrol your thoughts, say pop
up when you least expect them.
And so by naming it instead ofinternalizing it, uh, I'm able
to combat those thoughts.
And so it, it usually soundslike something like this.
So like I just started, um, atZapier.
(23:03):
Fantastic company.
Super excited about the job, butBeatrice popped up and it's
like, mm, are you sure you'regonna be good at this?
I don't know if you've everreally done this type of job
before.
You're probably gonna fail, andthey're gonna know.
And so it's like, okay, like,yes, Beatrice, you're right in
pointing out that I haven't donethis type of job before, but
(23:23):
let's be real.
Like they wouldn't have hired meif they didn't think I was
qualified, or if I didn't havetransferable skills.
By doing that, I've said, okay,I've acknowledged the thought, I
haven't internalized it.
And then I've provided my ownrational evidence to say, well,
no, I went through severalinterviews.
I gave a presentation.
Like they wouldn't have hired meif they didn't think I could do
(23:45):
the job.
Uh, so yeah, that's that for me,that's what imposter syndrome
feels like.
And like I said, I, I don'tthink it goes away for anybody.
And if it does, please shoutout.
Let me know how you can stopthose.
But if you can't, this is justone way I combat.
Naomi Liu (23:59):
Um, a good friend of mine who's a clinical
psychologist, she said thatimposter syndrome usually stems
from the fact that the more youknow, the more you realize you
don't know.
And when she said that, I kindof had a bit of a light bulb
moment, I'm like, that is sotrue.
You know that for me.
She said that, she told me thisa couple years ago, and you
know, the, when I, when I heardher say that, I was like, yeah,
I definitely feel that.
(24:19):
Like the more I know, the more.
Wow.
There's actually so much.
I don't know when people aregonna realize that there's a
lot, I don't know, as opposed tofocusing on the fact that like,
there's actually still even morethat you do know too.
Right.
Um, Casey, I would love to hearfrom you, imposter syndrome,
thoughts.
How do you combat it?
What does that look like foryou?
Kacyn Goranson (24:38):
Well, first of all, I've never heard that
comment about.
The more you know, the more yourealize you
Naomi Liu (24:43):
Mm-hmm.
Kacyn Goranson (24:44):
So many light bulbs just went off.
Naomi Liu (24:46):
Right.
Yes.
Kacyn Goranson (24:47):
thanks for giving me a lot to think about
later today.
Um, but no, I think impostersyndrome's a hundred percent
real.
Whatever name you wanna call it.
I, I usually say honestly, untilLeah's point and her, her dear
friend, Beatrice, when you takea new role or opportunity or you
start something, I have a mo.
(25:09):
We all have a few moments,especially I, I feel like week
two to four you have a lot ofmoments of, oh my God, what did
I just do?
I try to remind myself, and Itry to remind my friends and
coworkers when they do somethingnew as well, if it doesn't scare
the life out of.
It probably wasn't the rightopportunity for you because you
never, even if it's a lateralmove, you never want to take
(25:30):
another step that isn't teachingyou or challenging you
something.
So if it's not scary and itdoesn't give you those imposter
syndrome moments, it was thewrong step cuz you already know
you can do it.
Um, but I think some things thatI've recently.
Or that it's a hundred percentpervasive.
(25:51):
And it is so real and it happensin a lot of different ways.
And it's not something you juststifle down and it's not
something, just a newopportunity or a new role.
And honestly, it's not even justat work or in your career.
It happens in social situations.
It happens when you move crosscountry like anything there.
Um, I have friends who areworking moms, right?
When they go on maternity leaveor right when they come back, it
(26:12):
creeps back.
single women, they have it.
When they're in conversationswith working moms, they're like,
Ugh, well, what do I have tocompete to this conversation?
Am I good enough if there's, ifthey're able to, you know, have
a family and work and do this?
So it comes up.
I even worked with a, agentleman recently, which we
never talk about men havingimposter syndrome.
(26:33):
He was man enough to admit ascandidly the youngest in the.
He had Impost syndrome sittingin a room with a lot of people
with much more experience.
So I think imposter syndrome isjust real and we just need to
own it.
Naomi Liu (26:50):
Yeah, I definitely agree and, and just wanted to
thank all of you for yourperspectives and thoughts and
feelings around that.
Um, as kind of a wrap up to thisrecording, I also wanted to end
on hearing about some highlightsof all of your careers.
So I'm just gonna start withyou, Vivian.
Um, would love to hear what aresome maybe top two or three
(27:11):
highlights that you've had inyour career so far, and what
does that look?
Vivian Chan (27:15):
yeah, the first one that comes to mind, and again,
it parlays what ca, you know,Cason was talking about, but
overcoming your fears and beingscared is it can be a good
thing.
Um, you know, when I realizedthat I could be an entrepreneur,
that I wasn't just.
You know, a corporate executivethat I could do other things in
my life that were unknown andscary and undone before for me.
(27:39):
And that, um, by diving intosomething new and fresh, um, I
would learn new things.
Um, you know, when I was able tofinally kind of get.
Get, you know, you figure it outin, in life.
You just kind of figure out, andover time as an entrepreneur,
you just learn to figure it out.
The skills that you had in yourprevious jobs or roles on how to
(27:59):
figure out how.
Solve a problem, create anopportunity.
Those apply in, in any kind ofrole industry or function that
you're in.
And so when I, when I realizedthat, that gave me so much
freedom to say, you know what,I, I can be anything I want.
I give my permission, myselfpermission, um, to be anything
that I want.
So I think I would say thatwould be probably a highlight of
(28:20):
my career now.
And, and, you know, and I takethat with me in each job that.
Naomi Liu (28:25):
Amazing.
I love that.
Thank you.
Um, Leah, what about.
Leah Miranda (28:31):
Yeah.
So, um, in my career, a couplehighlights.
Uh, one, um, and this kind offeeds into that imposter
syndrome we were talking about.
Uh, one of the big things that.
Wanted to do in my career wasstart speaking at events, being
on podcasts.
Um, and so this is a careerhighlight for me.
Um, I've had the, the pleasureto speak, um, at Litmus this
(28:52):
last year, and that was a kindof a three year goal that I had.
Uh, and Kason was great.
She was, uh, incrediblysupportive and helped me walk
through my presentation, gave mesome really great.
And so, so yeah, I think, uh,for me, putting myself out there
just a little bit more, eventhough I've got an extroverted
personality, uh, it felt scaryto say, here's some knowledge
that I might have and you mightfind it useful too.
(29:14):
Um, so that was definitely, uh,a career highlight.
And then, um, the other one is,uh, seeing.
Seeing team members, um, go onto bigger and greater things.
Uh, I think being a leader andbeing a people manager, it has
been so rewarding to help.
Others, uh, both, uh, you know,men and women, um, non-binary
(29:37):
people, uh, you know, developtheir skills and, you know, have
an impact on their life andtheir career.
Um, and, you know, help them getthat, that next promotion.
And, you know, I kind of alwaysjoke with every teammate that
I've, I've helped manage oflike, you know, I hope to be, I
hope you're my boss one day.
Uh, I hope you can, um, ascend.
Uh, so that's been I thinkprobably one of the most
(29:59):
fulfilling things.
About my career is being ableto, to manage people and, and
them having the, the grace andsupport of when I do have a
blunder every now and then thatthey're, they're open with that
feedback and help me grow aswell.
Naomi Liu (30:13):
I love hearing that about women, supporting women
especially, and just likehelping to lift each other up
in, in, uh, you know, thecorporate world for sure.
Uh, Casey, what about you?
Kacyn Goranson (30:24):
Well, I feel like now I'm just piggybacking
on Leah's last answer.
Um, but I think it's reallymanaging people and it's beyond
just at this one job, I'vealways looked at management as
it's my role as a people managerto get them wherever they're
trying to go and not necessarilyat that company, but in their
career.
And I think there, there are afew.
(30:47):
I'm gonna try not to give outtoo many details and make Leah
laugh cuz full disclosure, shewas there for many of these.
Um, but there was, there was aperiod where we were reorging at
a previous company and.
Some men were trying to put twospecific coworkers into places
on the team where I knew theywould almost immediately turn in
(31:09):
their notice.
But because I knew where theywere trying to go in their
career, how they worked, thingsthat they liked and disliked
about their role was kind ofable to push really hard on
putting them into differentplaces on that org chart.
Um, they ended up staying forquite a while and really
thriving in those roles and.
(31:30):
The second one that comes tomind that's around the same vein
is even after leaving variouscompanies, staying in touch with
some of those previouscoworkers, whether they were,
you know, managers, peers.
Or even reports, but helpingthem get where they're trying to
go as they find new roles, asthey're having challenging
conversations with bosses orpeers or even salary
(31:54):
negotiations, whatever it is.
But I think it means a lot to methat they still, even though we
don't work together, so theydon't technically have to talk
to me about those conversations,the fact that they still seek me
out and keep in touch, and someof them I talk to multiple times
a week.
So I think those are, those aredefinitely the big highlights.
Naomi Liu (32:12):
That's amazing.
So I would almost, even justhearing what you guys are
saying, think that, you know,one of the, the superpowers that
you'll have is, you know, womensupporting women keep.
Being in contact with folks, um,helping them to events in their
career, and just being overallsuper supportive.
Uh, Vivian Cason and Leah, thankyou so much for joining us
today.
For those of you listening,thank you so much for being a
(32:34):
part of this.
If you have any suggestions forfuture topics or guests, please
let us know.
You can find all of us onLinkedIn or join the daily
conversations@marketingops.comif you're not already part of
the community.
If you're already there, pleaselet us know what you think and
remember to subscribe, rate, andreview.
Thank you.
Kacyn Goranson (32:53):
Uh,
Welcome to another episode of OpsCast by the Mo
(00:02):
Pros, powered bymarketingops.com.
I am Naomi Liu, and today I amnot joined by my co-host, Mike
Rizzo and Michael Hartmannbecause today's episode is a
Woman's takeover episode, and Iam joined by my lovely guest,
Vivian Chan, case, Goranson andLeah Miranda, please say,
Vivian Chan (00:21):
Hello?
Leah Miranda (00:23):
Hey everyone.
Naomi Liu (00:24):
Before we get started, I wanted to take a
minute to introduce my guests.
Um, Kaycn is a results-orientedmarketer with a background in
marketing, operations, growth,and business strategies.
She also has over 13 years ofB2B experience across several
areas of marketing, from socialmedia to paid search and life
cycle to lead scoring.
(00:45):
Her passions are aroundoptimizing the MarTech stack
lead processes and marketinganalytics.
Vivian Chan is actually a secondtime POD podcast guest, but for
those of you who don't know her,she is an entrepreneur and
senior technology executiveleader who has been involved in
marketing and partner channelsfor three very different waves
(01:06):
of disruptive technologies,those being analytics, cloud and
ar.
She has been named one of GlobalMills 2021 best executives and
brings more than 20 years ofexperience scaling companies.
She's currently leading globalintegrated campaigns for
operational excellence atServiceNow.
And last but not least, LeahMiranda is passionate about
(01:28):
using technology to meet peoplewhere they are, and has garnered
over a decade of lifecyclemarketing experience, including
startups, fortune 500 companies,and most recently leading the
lifecycle team at sap.
When she's not coding emails orbuilding flowcharts, you can
find Leah in Nashville,Tennessee drinking coffee and
reading a book with her wife andwell, dog ladies, thank you for
(01:50):
joining us today and I'm excitedto chat with you all.
That was definitely a mouthful.
Um, super impressed with, youknow, all of, um, the
compliments, accomplishmentsthat all of you have had so far
in your career.
And,
Vivian Chan (02:02):
so
Naomi Liu (02:02):
jumping right into things, uh, when we were talking
about recording this woman'stakeover episode and what topic
or hook we wanted to shape thisrecording around, an idea that
came up was women and oursuperpowers.
Now, I don't know about you.
But no superhero story comeswithout the origin story.
So I'd like to ask all of you,what is your origin story and
(02:25):
subsequent superpower?
Uh, Vivian, I'm gonna pick onyou for this because you were
kind of the one who originallycame up with this, with this
hook.
So would love to hear your, yourorigin story and superpower
Vivian Chan (02:37):
Sure.
Um, yeah, my, I would say thetheme of my.
Story is really around thisnotion around having a
non-linear career.
Um, if I look at, you know, thelast 20 years of my career, it's
been really guided by mycuriosity.
I started my career as a, as aco-op student in a startup
(02:59):
company, um, that subsequentlyscaled after three acquisitions
into a.
Enterprise software company, uh,called sap.
And so ended up doing a numberof years in in from scale up to,
to corporate.
Naomi Liu (03:13):
That was business objects, right?
Bob,
Vivian Chan (03:15):
that, yeah, that was, it went from crystal
decisions, business objects tosap and um, every three to six
months we had a differentcompany.
And so that was one of the, thebig educations of my career.
Um, but after about 14 years ofit, I, I got kind of tired of
it.
I was like not excited aboutmarketing.
(03:35):
I realized that I needed to takea tech sabbatical and ended up,
um, moving to London tovolunteer for a climate change
organization for, um, a coupleof months, um, to learn a little
bit more about social impactcauses and whatnot.
Um, then ended up, um, in highereducation.
I ended up at my alma mater.
Uh, starting a innovationinitiative there.
(03:58):
Then dived into the world ofstartups, starting up my own ar
vr company with a co-founder andnow I'm back in corporate again
at ServiceNow.
So it really kind of goes fullcircle.
And so I would say my originstory is really around one where
I've continued to follow mycuriosity and my personal
priorities that change from timeto.
(04:19):
Um, in terms of superpower, um,I would say that, um, my husband
always says that, um, you know,from his observation, he, he
says that I'm able to makefriends via human connection.
And so, um, I think the abilityto find the thing that we have
in common is something that, um,I like to do.
(04:40):
And, uh, another sort of funfact is I'm always asking,
Naomi Liu (04:46):
That's awesome.
I, so for those of you who don'tknow, like Vivian and I have
known each other for quite along time, I wanna say a decade.
Vivian Chan (04:53):
Yeah.
Naomi Liu (04:53):
a decade, and something that's always
impressed me about you is that Ifeel like you are somebody who's
an excellent listener and you'realways asking, you know, more
information, you ask the hardquestions.
Like I just really, I always,every time we connect and we
catch up, I always just kind ofleave feeling like super fresh.
I'm like, wow, you know, that'sa different take that I've, you
know, I've never, I've neverseen, um, or heard of or thought
(05:15):
of things that way, and so I.
I wanted to shout you up becauseI really enjoy, you know,
letting, I just wanna let youknow that I really enjoy having,
you know, picking your brain andhaving those types
Vivian Chan (05:24):
Thanks, Naomi.
Yeah, no, I, um, I've, I'velearned to be a better listener.
I have to tell you that thatdidn't come naturally.
I, I really had to learn overtime how to, how to do that.
So thank you for that.
I, I really appreciate it.
Okay,
Naomi Liu (05:36):
So I want to pick on Leah next.
Leah would love to hear yourorigin story and, uh, what your
superhero is.
Superhero power is rather.
Leah Miranda (05:48):
exactly.
So, uh, I would say like allheroes, my origin story involves
a struggle, you know, the worldmyself.
Okay, so it's not really thatdramatic.
But as a 20 year old withstudent loans, it definitely
felt that dramatic.
Uh, I actually went to school tobe a social studies teacher, uh,
and you might be wondering whyam I on a MOS Pro uh, podcast?
(06:09):
But here we.
And so I, I was a social studiesteacher for a while and then,
you know, like in any good herostory, the villain shows up for
me.
That was 2008, and specificallythe economy.
And I was suddenly faced with,oh no, I need to get another
job.
Uh, so I temp at a lot ofdifferent places and, uh, I
figured marketing seemed likefun.
(06:31):
They always seemed like the coolkids.
Whenever I, I talk to, My, uh,fellow, uh, colleagues, uh, and
so finally, um, Michelle l I'mgonna shout you out.
Uh, took a chance on me nothaving a marketing background
and gave me a position in anevent marketing role, and I
absolutely love it.
I fell in love with, uh,marketing and it was, it was a
(06:52):
really great time.
From there, uh, my career hasexpanded and I've been able to
work with a couple of differentstartups, which I think was
really fun.
Um, especially being young in mycareer that I was able to, with
all startups, you get to wearmany different hats and I really
took advantage of that.
So I was able to sit in content.
I did a little stint and paidemail marketing life cycle.
(07:15):
And eventually kind of wound upin marketing ops and life
cycles, kind of where I, um,ended up really truly, I think,
thriving, uh, and really lovingwhat I do.
So with that, I think, um, thatjourney, my, my superpower, I
would have to say is probably myhumor.
And while I think I can telllike a really great dad joke, I
(07:37):
think it goes beyond just beingable to crack a joke or being,
you know, quote unquote.
I've also realized I've setmyself up to be humorous in this
podcast.
So just, you know, manage one's
Naomi Liu (07:47):
I mean, I, I feel like I wanna ask you what your
favorite dad joke is, but youknow, I don't wanna put you on
the spot there, right?
Leah Miranda (07:54):
um, yeah.
Yeah.
Uh, let's see.
Uh, favorite dad joke.
Um, yeah, I think I'd have tosay, uh, in my early twenties I
was addicted to the hokey pokey.
Um, but I've turned myself.
Naomi Liu (08:08):
Oh my gosh.
Leah Miranda (08:10):
horrible, but I love a good dad joke.
Naomi Liu (08:14):
Oh my
Leah Miranda (08:14):
Um, I know there's someone out there that also
appreciates this.
Um, so yeah, so it, it goesbeyond being able to be quote
unquote funny.
Humor for me, uh, allows me tolaugh.
It helps me bring joy into mywork, uh, to the people that I
work with.
It opens up a human side tobusiness and it allows for you
(08:35):
to have better connections,better interactions, and really
create better experiences withinthe workplace.
Naomi Liu (08:41):
I love that.
I, I think that's so importantbecause I feel like sometimes,
especially in the work that wedo, it can get quite cumbersome
and technical and super seriousand, you know, the ability to
find humor in it, and alsotaking a step back and being
like, guys, okay, we're notcuring cancer.
This is not like covid vaccinetrials.
Like this is, you know, it's allstill very important.
But I think, um, yeah,definitely finding the humor in
(09:04):
that, especially when you're,you know, problem solving.
Doing things with, um, like mindsharing with coworkers and, you
know, you're putting your headstogether and you're wanting to
approach a problem.
I'm curious, like, do you havean example of, um, uh, using
humor in a workplace environmentwhere, you know, you're working
(09:25):
a group environment or you'retrying to solve a problem?
Like do you have a example forthat?
Leah Miranda (09:30):
Um, yeah, I think what's, what's great about humor
is, uh, I like to joke.
It's not Maybelline, you know,she's not born with it.
It's definitely a muscle thatanyone can develop.
And so for me, I think it'sbeing able to just to be able to
laugh at yourself.
A lot of what we do can be trialand error.
Uh, we make mistakes along theway.
And I think, um, having that,that humor, that joy kind of,
(09:52):
that, that comfort to say, Hey,I've made a mistake and let's
all learn from it, um, is, isone thing that I really enjoy.
Uh, the other thing too is just,it's nice to set the tone.
I think humor can sometimes havelike a darker.
To it.
So, you know, you don't want itto turn into your crypto tonight
just to, to keep that superherotheme going.
Uh, so, you know, I think ifhumor, if you're using that to
(10:14):
bring joy and openness into yourwork environment and to kind of,
you know, be able to laugh atyourself, um, is, is kind of how
I bring it and how it, uh,personifies in my work life.
Naomi Liu (10:27):
definitely.
I love that.
And so, kind of piggybacking offof that and staying on the topic
of problem solving and, and awoman's approach, I'd love to
hear from you, Caseon, like whatare, what do you feel are some
differences between the waywomen approach problem solving
in the work?
Kacyn Goranson (10:43):
Yeah, so I'm gonna definitely preface this
with this as a total, totalgeneralization.
So wanna acknowledge there areexceptions, some women.
Tend to approach problems likemen, and some men tend to
approach problems like women.
Um, but I think Leah actuallykind of hit on it with her, her
humor, comment, and even thehuman side to business.
(11:07):
I think generally speaking, mentend to look at any problems.
What's the short.
Path.
What's the, the quickest way toget to write or fixed or
whatever The result we're tryingto get is where women tend to
partially because just the wayour brains work, we can
multitask.
(11:27):
We are literally geneticallywired to multitask where men
cannot.
Multitask as well.
We see the forest, we don't justsee the single tree.
So we're able to think throughthe people angle and how do we
best get there?
Who are the people who can getus there?
Even, is it a skill set?
Is it something personally thatthey've experienced before?
(11:49):
We pull all of that in insteadof just this person moves
quicker, where this person hasalways got me, you know, through
the hard times in business.
I'm gonna trust.
Women can tend to think of who'sgonna get us there the best way,
the quickest, the most efficientway, but without taking
shortcuts or just necessarilygoing straight through the
(12:10):
forest, but what's the best wayand really solve that problem.
So basically I think, I thinkwomen are just really good
multitaskers, but they rememberthe human.
Naomi Liu (12:22):
Yeah.
I love that.
I, I feel, I, I totally agreewith and resonate with
everything that you've.
That, and I just, I feel likethis is a good segue into the
next question, which is, um,female leaders and role models
that we look up to.
And before I, you know, call onVivian, I'm gonna call on you,
but before I kind of call on,uh, you, I, I also wanna share,
you know, what is a femaleleader role model that I look up
(12:43):
to, uh, personally, I'm a hugefan of, Sandy Learner, uh, for
those of you who don't know whoshe is, she was a co-founder of
a company.
You might know Cisco, and whenshe left Cisco, she went on to
start.
A cosmetics company.
Um, you might have heard of it,urban Decay.
It's kind of in all of the, it'sin Sephoras in all of the
(13:03):
department stores.
It's quite a drastic change fromCisco to Urban Decay.
But, you know, when she soldUrban Decay to, um, I believe it
was the Louis Vuitton group, um,she then started a sustainable
organic, Agriculture farm inVirginia, and she's an
inspiration to me, not only as awoman in tech, but also as a
woman in business.
(13:24):
Right?
You know, she was fired from thecompany that she founded Cisco,
but went on to reinvent herself.
Um, I'm super impressed by herresiliency and her ability to
adapt.
Um, it's an inspiration to meand something that I really look
f um, really look up to.
So, That being said, uh, Vivian,you're also somebody I actually
really look up to.
You know, when we first met, Ithink I was like a little bit in
(13:46):
awe of you.
I was like, wow, there's thislike woman who has everything,
all her shit together and, youknow, I'd love to be her friend
and like love to learn more andpick her brain.
So, um, I'd love to hear fromyou.
Who do you, uh, see as a femaleleader role?
Mo role model, and who do youlook up to?
Vivian Chan (14:00):
yeah, I, I just think that we learn from.
Our bosses and we learn from ourpeers.
And so I think in so many waysit's, it's learning through
observation and learning,through collaboration and, and
sort of two women stand out, uh,quite a bit for me.
Um, Carolyn Cox, who now runsAmerica's Marketing and at
ServiceNow, but we know weworked together in two other
(14:23):
companies prior.
She really set the tone around,uh, being a leader that drives.
Um, you know, she gets her, sheknows her shit and she's very
outcomes oriented andinefficient, and she didn't feel
like, you know, she would needto talk or sound smart or
eloquent.
She, what she had to do wasabout impact.
(14:45):
And so I really loved this no BSapproach to, to driving value.
And so I've kind of kept thatmodel in my whole career.
I'm here to create impact, um,not to look good, but to, to
make the right decisions for theorganization.
And the second role model thatI've had is, is Joy Johnson, um,
from Simon Fraser University.
She's from the higher educationsector.
(15:05):
Um, she's now the president of,of the university.
She was someone who had thisincredible ability to make
everyone feel seen and heard.
And so when she would talk tothe group, she really took time
to listen.
But when she spoke, she reallyhad the final word and, and.
Uh, a sense of bringing it alltogether.
(15:27):
And so, again, this sort of, um,very co-creative approach was,
was something that, um, I tookfrom her.
So I think we take a little bitfrom, from different people at
different times, whether they'reyour boss, um, or your peers.
Naomi Liu (15:40):
I totally agree, and I'm jotting these people down so
I can look them up later afterthis recording.
Um, Leah, I'd love to hear fromyou as well, any female leaders
or role models you look up to.
Leah Miranda (15:51):
Um, yeah.
So, uh, this, this is gonnasound super lame, but I think
Case and Case, uh, can attest tothis, but, uh, the person I
really look up to is, is my.
Name's Taryn Driggers.
Uh, and she's uh, a c-suiteleader in, in healthcare.
And the reason I look up to heris because she was one of the
(16:13):
first female leaders that I hadexposure to.
I had a lot of male bosses kindof as I was coming up in my
career that really led withempathy.
And that, that just was inreally like stark contrast to
the leaders that I had beenexposed to.
And it was something that, youknow, uh, I had the opportunity,
we worked together for a shortstint and I sat in on a meeting
(16:35):
with her and just was like inawe of like, oh, this is a new
way you can interact with your,Your team and, and, and lead
with this, this underlying ofempathy.
And so, um, yeah, it's just,it's something that, uh, a skill
set that I, I identified withand something she instills in
her team as she helps developfuture healthcare leaders.
(16:58):
Um, so yeah.
Um, I think.
Think.
Yeah, I think for me it's justidentifying those women in, um,
it, it can be as simple as justthose little interactions.
You know, I'm in awe of the, thewomen on this, this podcast.
Um, you know, you all bring sucha, an amazing perspective and
experience and, you know, Ithink it's, it's key to.
(17:19):
To take those interactions andsay, okay, you know, dissect
them a bit.
Like, why was that meaningful tome?
Like what did they do?
You know, Vivian was talkingabout did they make that
connection?
And I think that's where empathycomes in.
You put yourself in thatperson's shoes and you say,
Okay.
What you're telling me is veryimportant to you right now, and
it's gonna be important to me asa leader.
(17:40):
Uh, and, you know, you, you usethat to build trust with your
team.
So, so yeah.
So I think, like I said, my wifeand then, um, I just try to, if
I see a positive behavior orpositive interaction, I try to
say, how can I, um, bring thatinto my own leadership style?
Naomi Liu (17:56):
They're all layers, right?
I think we, we um, we, wedefinitely learn from the people
that are around us and thepeople that, you know, report to
us or manage us directly, andit's just something that over
time, it's definitely a learningexperience.
I love that.
Um, Kason would love to hearfrom you, uh, female leader role
model you look up to.
Kacyn Goranson (18:14):
So it would be a previous CMO of mine.
Her name's Kerin.
Um, she was the only.
Female, not only seniorexecutive on the C-suite, but I
would say VP or hire at thiscompany, traditional financial
services company.
She was never once intimidatedto be the only female.
(18:36):
She showed up to the tablewhether she had a chair or
whether she had to, you know,stand in the room.
She was not afraid to turn thatinto a standing desk, but she
really earned her spot.
But she looked out at the restof the team and helped us earn
our chairs too, or at least ourspot in the room.
Um, and that was not just forwomen.
(18:57):
She helped, she helped the guyson the team, kind of how do you
get into that room as well?
So now she owns her ownbusiness, which so just
continues to inspire me that shehad her own faith to go do her
own thing.
Naomi Liu (19:11):
Yeah, I love that.
So something that I am gettingthe sense of with a lot of the
female leaders or role modelsthat you all look up to is that
they're quite, um, they're quitepowerful women in terms of being
very high up in the companiesand the organizations that
they're in.
Um, and.
That kind of piggybacks into thenext question around female
thought leadership.
So I would love to hear fromyou, Vivian, why you feel that
(19:34):
female thought leadership is soimportant, um, in, you know, the
working world, corporate life.
Would love to hear your thoughtson
Vivian Chan (19:42):
yeah, I think hearing from female leaders on
their experiences I think arereally important because I think
sometimes the challenges that weexperience on how we're
perceived seeing how peoplerelate to us, um, can be.
Gender and, and even race,right?
There's dimensions on, on, onperception.
Um, there's unconscious bias andit's, it's a real thing.
(20:03):
And so being able to kind ofshare how we've, um, overcome
that, how we've worked throughthat, um, I think is important.
You know, as, as an example, youknow, by, by virtue of podcasts
like this, that where we sharewhat's working, what's not, I, I
think we learn through that.
Um, as an example, just veryrecently actually, I was just at
(20:23):
a Christmas party.
Um, I often get people assumingthat I'm much younger than I am,
and so by default they'realready judging my level of
knowledge and whatnot.
And so it's something that I'vehad to work through throughout
my whole career.
And so instead of letting itdefine me, I, I think, you know,
you kind of ha you, you'reaware.
(20:43):
That, that bias exists and youneed to continue to just show up
in a way that demonstrates yourskills and experiences.
I'm always aware of that, butwith that said, I show up not
trying to prove my age, but to,you know, but try to bring my
experience to the table.
And so, um, that comes in theforms of asking good questions,
(21:05):
um, speaking up when I need to,um, but not always speaking up
for the sake of speaking up.
And, um, how I priorit.
What I do.
So I think how we show up, um,ultimately manifests in how
people see us over time.
But in the beginning, thesefirst impressions, um, you know,
start us off on a, on adifferent playing field.
(21:26):
So,
Naomi Liu (21:27):
Yeah, I think, um, I think for all of us on this, on
this recording, um, some of thethings that you've just said,
especially around theassumptions that are.
And the judgment before peopleeven really get to know you.
You've put it in a way that, um,is much more eloquent than I
could have ever said.
Um, it kind of ties intofeelings for myself at least, of
imposter syndrome.
Right.
(21:47):
So, um, I would love to hearfrom, uh, Yulia about do you
ever feel, especially in, uh,the working environment imposter
syndrome, what does that looklike to you?
Um, how do you combat that?
Um, you know, is it somethingyou still struggle with or what
does that look.
Leah Miranda (22:05):
Yeah, lots of feelings on this.
So I have proudly sufferedimposter syndrome at every
single job role that I've everhad, and I, I honestly think
that it will never matter howmany years I have under my belt
or experience.
I think I'll imposter syndromewill always be there.
And for me, that's not such abad thing.
(22:25):
Um, I try to use, again, humorand reframing to combat those
feelings.
Uh, for example, I like to put aname to my imposter syndrome.
Uh, I affectionately call herBeatrice, and I know sounds
ridiculous, but.
If
Naomi Liu (22:40):
I love that actually.
That's
Leah Miranda (22:42):
ha Yeah, it's great.
Uh, if you can't stop havingthose imposter thoughts because
you, you can't, you can't reallycontrol your thoughts, say pop
up when you least expect them.
And so by naming it instead ofinternalizing it, uh, I'm able
to combat those thoughts.
And so it, it usually soundslike something like this.
So like I just started, um, atZapier.
(23:03):
Fantastic company.
Super excited about the job, butBeatrice popped up and it's
like, mm, are you sure you'regonna be good at this?
I don't know if you've everreally done this type of job
before.
You're probably gonna fail, andthey're gonna know.
And so it's like, okay, like,yes, Beatrice, you're right in
pointing out that I haven't donethis type of job before, but
(23:23):
let's be real.
Like they wouldn't have hired meif they didn't think I was
qualified, or if I didn't havetransferable skills.
By doing that, I've said, okay,I've acknowledged the thought, I
haven't internalized it.
And then I've provided my ownrational evidence to say, well,
no, I went through severalinterviews.
I gave a presentation.
Like they wouldn't have hired meif they didn't think I could do
(23:45):
the job.
Uh, so yeah, that's that for me,that's what imposter syndrome
feels like.
And like I said, I, I don'tthink it goes away for anybody.
And if it does, please shoutout.
Let me know how you can stopthose.
But if you can't, this is justone way I combat.
Naomi Liu (23:59):
Um, a good friend of mine who's a clinical
psychologist, she said thatimposter syndrome usually stems
from the fact that the more youknow, the more you realize you
don't know.
And when she said that, I kindof had a bit of a light bulb
moment, I'm like, that is sotrue.
You know that for me.
She said that, she told me thisa couple years ago, and you
know, the, when I, when I heardher say that, I was like, yeah,
I definitely feel that.
(24:19):
Like the more I know, the more.
Wow.
There's actually so much.
I don't know when people aregonna realize that there's a
lot, I don't know, as opposed tofocusing on the fact that like,
there's actually still even morethat you do know too.
Right.
Um, Casey, I would love to hearfrom you, imposter syndrome,
thoughts.
How do you combat it?
What does that look like foryou?
Kacyn Goranson (24:38):
Well, first of all, I've never heard that
comment about.
The more you know, the more yourealize you
Naomi Liu (24:43):
Mm-hmm.
Kacyn Goranson (24:44):
So many light bulbs just went off.
Naomi Liu (24:46):
Right.
Yes.
Kacyn Goranson (24:47):
thanks for giving me a lot to think about
later today.
Um, but no, I think impostersyndrome's a hundred percent
real.
Whatever name you wanna call it.
I, I usually say honestly, untilLeah's point and her, her dear
friend, Beatrice, when you takea new role or opportunity or you
start something, I have a mo.
(25:09):
We all have a few moments,especially I, I feel like week
two to four you have a lot ofmoments of, oh my God, what did
I just do?
I try to remind myself, and Itry to remind my friends and
coworkers when they do somethingnew as well, if it doesn't scare
the life out of.
It probably wasn't the rightopportunity for you because you
never, even if it's a lateralmove, you never want to take
(25:30):
another step that isn't teachingyou or challenging you
something.
So if it's not scary and itdoesn't give you those imposter
syndrome moments, it was thewrong step cuz you already know
you can do it.
Um, but I think some things thatI've recently.
Or that it's a hundred percentpervasive.
(25:51):
And it is so real and it happensin a lot of different ways.
And it's not something you juststifle down and it's not
something, just a newopportunity or a new role.
And honestly, it's not even justat work or in your career.
It happens in social situations.
It happens when you move crosscountry like anything there.
Um, I have friends who areworking moms, right?
When they go on maternity leaveor right when they come back, it
(26:12):
creeps back.
single women, they have it.
When they're in conversationswith working moms, they're like,
Ugh, well, what do I have tocompete to this conversation?
Am I good enough if there's, ifthey're able to, you know, have
a family and work and do this?
So it comes up.
I even worked with a, agentleman recently, which we
never talk about men havingimposter syndrome.
(26:33):
He was man enough to admit ascandidly the youngest in the.
He had Impost syndrome sittingin a room with a lot of people
with much more experience.
So I think imposter syndrome isjust real and we just need to
own it.
Naomi Liu (26:50):
Yeah, I definitely agree and, and just wanted to
thank all of you for yourperspectives and thoughts and
feelings around that.
Um, as kind of a wrap up to thisrecording, I also wanted to end
on hearing about some highlightsof all of your careers.
So I'm just gonna start withyou, Vivian.
Um, would love to hear what aresome maybe top two or three
(27:11):
highlights that you've had inyour career so far, and what
does that look?
Vivian Chan (27:15):
yeah, the first one that comes to mind, and again,
it parlays what ca, you know,Cason was talking about, but
overcoming your fears and beingscared is it can be a good
thing.
Um, you know, when I realizedthat I could be an entrepreneur,
that I wasn't just.
You know, a corporate executivethat I could do other things in
my life that were unknown andscary and undone before for me.
(27:39):
And that, um, by diving intosomething new and fresh, um, I
would learn new things.
Um, you know, when I was able tofinally kind of get.
Get, you know, you figure it outin, in life.
You just kind of figure out, andover time as an entrepreneur,
you just learn to figure it out.
The skills that you had in yourprevious jobs or roles on how to
(27:59):
figure out how.
Solve a problem, create anopportunity.
Those apply in, in any kind ofrole industry or function that
you're in.
And so when I, when I realizedthat, that gave me so much
freedom to say, you know what,I, I can be anything I want.
I give my permission, myselfpermission, um, to be anything
that I want.
So I think I would say thatwould be probably a highlight of
(28:20):
my career now.
And, and, you know, and I takethat with me in each job that.
Naomi Liu (28:25):
Amazing.
I love that.
Thank you.
Um, Leah, what about.
Leah Miranda (28:31):
Yeah.
So, um, in my career, a couplehighlights.
Uh, one, um, and this kind offeeds into that imposter
syndrome we were talking about.
Uh, one of the big things that.
Wanted to do in my career wasstart speaking at events, being
on podcasts.
Um, and so this is a careerhighlight for me.
Um, I've had the, the pleasureto speak, um, at Litmus this
(28:52):
last year, and that was a kindof a three year goal that I had.
Uh, and Kason was great.
She was, uh, incrediblysupportive and helped me walk
through my presentation, gave mesome really great.
And so, so yeah, I think, uh,for me, putting myself out there
just a little bit more, eventhough I've got an extroverted
personality, uh, it felt scaryto say, here's some knowledge
that I might have and you mightfind it useful too.
(29:14):
Um, so that was definitely, uh,a career highlight.
And then, um, the other one is,uh, seeing.
Seeing team members, um, go onto bigger and greater things.
Uh, I think being a leader andbeing a people manager, it has
been so rewarding to help.
Others, uh, both, uh, you know,men and women, um, non-binary
(29:37):
people, uh, you know, developtheir skills and, you know, have
an impact on their life andtheir career.
Um, and, you know, help them getthat, that next promotion.
And, you know, I kind of alwaysjoke with every teammate that
I've, I've helped manage oflike, you know, I hope to be, I
hope you're my boss one day.
Uh, I hope you can, um, ascend.
Uh, so that's been I thinkprobably one of the most
(29:59):
fulfilling things.
About my career is being ableto, to manage people and, and
them having the, the grace andsupport of when I do have a
blunder every now and then thatthey're, they're open with that
feedback and help me grow aswell.
Naomi Liu (30:13):
I love hearing that about women, supporting women
especially, and just likehelping to lift each other up
in, in, uh, you know, thecorporate world for sure.
Uh, Casey, what about you?
Kacyn Goranson (30:24):
Well, I feel like now I'm just piggybacking
on Leah's last answer.
Um, but I think it's reallymanaging people and it's beyond
just at this one job, I'vealways looked at management as
it's my role as a people managerto get them wherever they're
trying to go and not necessarilyat that company, but in their
career.
And I think there, there are afew.
(30:47):
I'm gonna try not to give outtoo many details and make Leah
laugh cuz full disclosure, shewas there for many of these.
Um, but there was, there was aperiod where we were reorging at
a previous company and.
Some men were trying to put twospecific coworkers into places
on the team where I knew theywould almost immediately turn in
(31:09):
their notice.
But because I knew where theywere trying to go in their
career, how they worked, thingsthat they liked and disliked
about their role was kind ofable to push really hard on
putting them into differentplaces on that org chart.
Um, they ended up staying forquite a while and really
thriving in those roles and.
(31:30):
The second one that comes tomind that's around the same vein
is even after leaving variouscompanies, staying in touch with
some of those previouscoworkers, whether they were,
you know, managers, peers.
Or even reports, but helpingthem get where they're trying to
go as they find new roles, asthey're having challenging
conversations with bosses orpeers or even salary
(31:54):
negotiations, whatever it is.
But I think it means a lot to methat they still, even though we
don't work together, so theydon't technically have to talk
to me about those conversations,the fact that they still seek me
out and keep in touch, and someof them I talk to multiple times
a week.
So I think those are, those aredefinitely the big highlights.
Naomi Liu (32:12):
That's amazing.
So I would almost, even justhearing what you guys are
saying, think that, you know,one of the, the superpowers that
you'll have is, you know, womensupporting women keep.
Being in contact with folks, um,helping them to events in their
career, and just being overallsuper supportive.
Uh, Vivian Cason and Leah, thankyou so much for joining us
today.
For those of you listening,thank you so much for being a
(32:34):
part of this.
If you have any suggestions forfuture topics or guests, please
let us know.
You can find all of us onLinkedIn or join the daily
conversations@marketingops.comif you're not already part of
the community.
If you're already there, pleaselet us know what you think and
remember to subscribe, rate, andreview.
Thank you.
Kacyn Goranson (32:53):
Uh,
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Therapy Gecko
An unlicensed lizard psychologist travels the universe talking to strangers about absolutely nothing. TO CALL THE GECKO: follow me on https://www.twitch.tv/lyleforever to get a notification for when I am taking calls. I am usually live Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays but lately a lot of other times too. I am a gecko.