January 19, 2023 • 41 mins
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On this episode, we talk with our first returning solo guest, Lorena Morales In this series we want to talk with our guests about how Marketing Ops can work (better?) with other Ops functions. Lorena is currently a Revenue Operations Executive at JLL Technologies. Prior to that, she has held several Marketing and Operations leadership roles. She is also currently on the advisory board with Syncari and is an active member of several communities, including Women in Revenue.
Tune in to hear:
- What she thinks are some things Marketing Ops professionals can do to better work with the other Ops functions - in particular Sales Ops, if they are having challenges?
- Given the recent cuts at several tech companies, Lorena gives her opinion on where the trend to revenue operations seems to be strongest and whether the trend toward that will accelerate or decelerate.
- If she thinks there is a way to measure how well different Ops functions at a company are working together.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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Michael Hartmann (00:03):
Hello everyone.
Welcome to another episode ofOpsCast, brought to you by
Marketingops.com.
Powered by the MoPros.
I'm your host, Michael Hartmann,uh, today flying solo.
But I'm excited cuz today is ourfirst of what we hope will be,
uh, the beginning of a shortseries of episodes on general
topic areas, which is what weintend to try to make 2023 as
we're going into it.
(00:24):
A little more structured, andone of those topic areas is
working, is what we're gonnatalk about with this guest
today, which is how canmarketing ops teams work better
with, uh, other ops functions?
So kicking us off on thisepisode is actually one of our
first returning solo.
So first returning solo guest.
We have had one other personwho's been on one extra time,
(00:44):
but not by herself.
So Lorena Morales is joining usagain.
The last time she was here wason an episode in late 2021.
It doesn't feel like it's beenthat long.
So, um, Lorena is currentlyrevenue operations executive at
j Lll Technologies, and prior tothat, Lorena has held several
marketing operations leadershiproles.
She is also currently on theadvisory board with synchry and
(01:05):
is an active member of severalcommunities, including women in
revenue.
So Lorena, welcome back.
Thanks for joining.
Lorena Morales (01:11):
Thank you, Michael.
It's such an honor to be one ofthe, uh, back, uh, speakers
because, or guests in the showbecause it's, you have people
that I respect so much, and tobe back here is, is such an
honor.
So thank you.
Thank you, thank you.
Yeah.
As you said, um, yeah, I'mcurrently direct, uh, the
(01:31):
director of, um, Be marketingrevenue operations at j Lll, not
really JLL Technologies.
So, so there's a, there's acorrection there, but, uh,
because it's a separate company,but yes.
Um, it's been more, more than ayear, I think.
Yeah.
I look fast.
I process
Michael Hartmann (01:49):
so fast.
So we are recording this, uh,almost on the anniversary of our
first episode, two second,right, which was January.
This is January 13th.
23 and we, our first episode wasthe 15th of 21, and the episode
we recorded with you last timewas in like October of 2021,
which when I, when I looked backand saw that, I was like, could
(02:10):
it really have been that longago?
Because it doesn't feel like it.
Lorena Morales (02:14):
Yeah, I feel the same.
I feel like as you become anadult and you become older, time
passes by faster, unfortunately,and not, I hid that age already.
So sad, sad story
Michael Hartmann (02:25):
to me.
Yeah, I I, I remember telling myparents when I was a little bit
younger, but old, kind ofgetting older, and I was like,
you really undersold how fasttime goes by.
Yep.
Great.
Definitely.
So, um, it's, it's definitelysomething to keep up with.
Well, we're glad to have youback.
Um, it's, it's kind of fun.
I mean, it's hard to believethat we've had so many great
guests and that we have hadsuch, you know, fortunate to, to
(02:49):
have all of them.
And I suspect we'll probablyget, start having more people on
again.
But, um, glad to have you be thefirst.
So why don't we, but why don'twe start there with jll, not JLL
Technologies.
Yeah, I think you were, when welast talked, you had, I think,
had just started in that, inthat company, and so we're
starting to see some things thatwere kind of new to your, to you
(03:10):
in terms of your experiencemostly I think, at smaller
companies.
So maybe an update on likewhat's going on there and like
has anything new come up out ofthat that you think would be
relevant for our audience?
Yeah, actually
Lorena Morales (03:22):
what's not going on It's, uh, it's been quite of,
quite of a journey so far.
Um, after that, the, this yearthat has happened after we last
spoke, um, definitely now I havea bigger team.
So when we, when we weretalking, uh, back in, in
October, I.
(03:42):
Recently joined joining thecompany.
Yes, that's correct.
But, um, I didn't have a team ora big team, so now I am, I have
a bigger team, a global team,uh, that manages, I have my eyes
in Emia, my, my eyes in apac,and, uh, and my, my agency, a
global agency as well running,uh, Americas and also running
(04:05):
the other two regions.
So now I'm, I'm, I'm in chargeof, Regions that are more
profitable for the company, sothat.
Japan, China, Australia, India,Germany, France, Americas, and
probably I am missing onesomewhere there, uh, which is
not good because I should knowthis by heart.
But, uh,
Michael Hartmann (04:23):
it's, it been a long, as we were talking about
before this, it's been a longweek, long month already.
It, long
Lorena Morales (04:28):
week, long week, long week for me.
But, uh, what has changed isdefinitely I have a, a lean team
and a smart team that I madesure, I've always made sure to
hire people that.
Smarter than me in many ways andin many senses, and this is not
the, the, the exception, I madesure to hire really brilliant
minds in the space that, uh,already knew revenue operations
(04:53):
or that where to, to, to beembarking the journey of revenue
operations that had the abilityto, to be coachable and to learn
these, this function.
one of them is my, my analystwho had experience previously in
revenue operations.
So that was a role that I waslike this, this needs to be a
person that understands not onlythe concept, but the execution
(05:14):
of revenue operations.
And so today we have learnedthat revenue operations has
different flavors in differentorganizations.
We, which I know it might soundvery logic, but when you work
for a, for a company of thissize, 110.
Thousand employees.
Um, it's, it's quite a differentbeast.
(05:35):
And it's, and it's, and it'sbeen a, a curve, a learning
curve that I didn't expectbecause I had to unlearn a lot
of the things that I knew backin my days at, at a consultancy.
Um, but that's what, what haschanged a bigger team, more
responsibilities.
And now I'm part of theleadership team of digital
market.
Michael Hartmann (05:55):
That's great.
No, I, I, I love, I I'm withyou.
Like I wanna hire people whocould take my job, right.
At some point, right?
Maybe they're not there yet, butI think that's really important
to see them.
And I like the idea, like I alsolook for people who are
coachable.
I think that's a reallyimportant skill that is probably
underrated by a lot of people.
Right?
I think it's easy to find peoplewho can do.
(06:15):
what you need'em to do.
But if they need to learnsomething else, you wanna make
sure they can do that.
Yep.
So, yep, I'm good.
Yeah, I, it'll be, I think it'llbe interesting to hear more
about what that, that has beenlike, cuz that's, that is, j l L
is definitely a big company,right.
With global footprint.
So that's, it brings in a wholenother set of challenges.
(06:35):
I think that some of the folkswho are listening wouldn't
experience it, even if they'reat a moderately big size
company.
Mm-hmm.
so, Um, okay, so.
let's kind of get into this.
Like, so one of the reasons we,we've been wanting to be a
little more thoughtful andpurposeful about the topics we
wanna go into and do a littledeeper dive over a series of
(06:56):
episodes is just, I think whatwe've found is that there are
topics that resonate with peopleand we wanna go a little deeper,
um, in kind of a, a, a shorterperiod of time.
So when.
When we last talk, um, you, wetalked quite a bit about what
you were calling a, a, amaturity model for revenue
operations, and I, I kind ofremember little bits and pieces
of it, um, about how, you know,it goes from sort of centralized
(07:21):
to distributed and then back tocentralized again as kind of
the, if I remember right.
Uh, but is your thinking aboutthat still the same or has it
changed a little bit now thatyou've got a little more time at
jll?
Lorena Morales (07:35):
I think Michael, that's a great question because
with time, as I was saying, yourperspective of things change and
that's exactly what, whathappened a little bit.
So when, when I was talkinglast, last year or so about a
maturity model, it's, it'sbasically like a, like a
blueprint for event fighting.
What are the unique steps, um,an enterprise can take to
(07:57):
continuously improve revenues?
Because that's the whole point,right?
But today I realize thatmaturity, Not necessarily means
being in an X or Y state ofthings where, for example, all
your systems are working and,and communicating between each
other and probably you have an80% accuracy on your forecasting
models and, uh, and then, andyou have this blue sky and
(08:21):
that's when you call the, the,the model that mature enough.
No, I think it means movement.
And when I say movement, I.
That, for example, anorganization that is already
willing to interview theircustomers at least once a month
or so is already maturing towhat level?
(08:41):
That depends heavily on, on whatthe company needs.
But like for example, someonealready measuring L T B is also
maturing.
Like that is, that is mamaturing for me.
Like I think my vision haschanged to from.
Thinking that I need to reachcertain level to understanding
that movement is movementforward to the sides, uh, a
(09:03):
little backwards if you're gonnatake, um, uh, if you are gonna
take two steps back and you'regonna take four steps forward
and go backwards.
But, um, it's movement for me,uh, uh, at the end.
And, and yes, so to your, toanswer your question, it has
changed a little bit and I haveseen that the little
improvements that the team hasdone in, for example, lead
(09:23):
management, is, is a sign ofmaturity and it's a sign that
we're doing things the rightway.
Michael Hartmann (09:31):
Yeah, I, that's really interesting.
I like when you said that, thatthe movement, it, it brought me
back to remembering what we've,you know, a lot of people say,
uh, like, practice makesperfect, right?
Mm-hmm.
and one of the things we'vealways done with our kids is
say, practice makes progress,right?
And.
That's, that's kind of what Ithought of when you were there,
was like the, the idea thatthere is some perfect state,
(09:52):
right.
Some maturity model and once youget there, you're done.
Right.
You just keep it going.
Right is a myth, I think is whatyou're saying.
Right.
And so, but you can always makeprogress and get better and I
think it's, it's, it falls intothat category of you don't know
what you don't know until you'rethere.
Lorena Morales (10:07):
Exactly.
Exactly.
Exactly.
And that's, that's one of thethings that I had to accept.
Like I only knew what I knew.
And, and there's even aframework for that, uh, in
design thinking, which is whatwe discussed last time, which
we're not gonna discuss rightnow because it could be too
much.
But, uh, it's, you, you areright.
Like you don't know what youdon't know.
(10:28):
And, and then you need to beuncovering things as you go and
figuring things out as you gothe same way.
Yeah.
Michael Hartmann (10:34):
I think that ties in with one of my sort of.
I don't know, soapbox topics,which is like, I don't like the
idea of, or what I think whatthe way some people interpret
the term best practices, cuz Ithink oof Right.
Okay.
So we're maybe we're on thesame, because I think like the
myth there to me is that youjust take what you did before.
It just, it you, you drop ineverything the same and it
(10:56):
works, but.
It doesn't because everycompany's different.
The people are different.
Their skills and experience, theculture, like all those things
have an impact on whether or notsomething could be just as
effective.
Yeah,
Lorena Morales (11:09):
I agree.
I agree.
Especially with revenueoperations where, and I and I,
and I did that phase.
I made that phase because I, Ifind it very funny when people
talk about best practices inrevenue operations.
and I was just having theseconversations with Rosalyn
Santana and I was like, there'sno best practices.
This is such a new, um,function.
(11:31):
Well, it's a methodology thatbecomes a function, uh, that you
can't really say that there's abest practice.
There are things that work thatyou should double down on, and
then there are things that, thatyou, you should keep improving.
But something such as bestpractices of revenue operations,
I don't think they exist atleast.
Michael Hartmann (11:51):
No, I, I mean, I like to think of things in
terms of, I guess I'd call itprinciples that I like to adhere
to.
So things like, mm-hmm.
um, like I, I'll give anexample.
So if there's a choice between,uh, making a system.
Sort of force people to docertain things or not because
you're worried that there'sgonna be some downstream impact,
(12:13):
like they're gonna make amistake.
Um, but that's gonna slow downor make it less likely that,
let's say salespeople lesslikely that they're gonna put
their information in Salesforce.
Mm-hmm.
like I would, I would generally,from a principal standpoint, Try
to trust those people to do theright thing and put less
structure in because I think Iwant, like what's important to
that, to them is that they areable to do their job, that we
(12:36):
can get stuff and that we canwork with them on sort of
emphasizing why it's importantto do this.
and we won't always geteverybody, but if we sort of
force it and make it toocomplicated, we'll never get any
of it.
It won't work.
Yeah.
Right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So, uh, that to me, that's agood, like, that's a principle,
but that's my, like a principle.
I wouldn't say it's a bestpractice and how that gets
applied in any particularsituation can vary.
(12:59):
I agree.
I agree.
All right.
We're done.
I like that.
I'll take that.
I'll take that.
Um, Well, yeah, we mentionedRosalyn.
We need to get Rosalyn on heresometime too.
So Rosalyn, if you're listening,what are we calling you again?
Lorena Morales (13:15):
Come here.
Come here, Rosalyn.
Michael Hartmann (13:17):
Yeah.
Um, okay, so that's interestingthat you, how that's evolved and
I think we're in aligned on someof those things.
Okay.
So most of our audiences,marketing ops folks, and they're
I think sure some marketers and,and rev ops people as well.
Um, some of the marketing opsfolks, we who are listening are
probably either.
(13:38):
You know, not, they're not,maybe they're not in revenue
operations under a team thatcovers all the go-to-market
operations functions.
Um, maybe they are anticipatingthat's gonna happen or they know
it's gonna happen.
Maybe in particular they'regonna merge with sales ops.
Right.
Um, what, what do you think theycould do in whether that's gonna
(13:58):
happen or not, like a rev opsfunction is gonna happen?
What do you think marketer opsfolks can do to say better work
with their sales ops teams?
so that you know they can startto work better.
Because I think a lot of reasonswhy Rev ops has come around is
cuz there's like not group, notteams working together Well,
Lorena Morales (14:16):
I agree.
I agree.
And, and when I came to, to jLll, um, I realized that we
didn't have that relationshipwith the sales op uh, guys.
Well we in, in some regions wedon't even have the function,
but.
So I, so I, we use Forester fora lot of things, um, in the
organization.
And so I, I ran to them and Iwas like, please help me.
(14:39):
How do I communicate effectivelywith, with my, with my peers?
Because they're, seems likethey're on the other side of the
fence and I can't get there.
I just can't get there.
And the answer were was assimple as, you're not talking
the same language.
You're, you're not speaking thesame language.
So I.
that my mistake was, I wascoming from a perspective of,
(15:00):
Hey, I need this.
Instead of looking at theroadmap and see which things can
or cannot be prioritized.
Um, so what I, what I mean bythat, and what I wanna say by
that is, I was not respectingthem as strategists, and that
was my first mistake.
So I believe, I believe alloperators are gonna, or, or are,
(15:20):
are becoming strategists in manyways.
Not only the sales ops, but alsothe marketing ops and the
customers obsess ops.
But, um, I, I, I truly believethat what I was not applying
what I, what I believe, I hadvalue to show at the
organization, right?
So I thought that my needs weremore important than any other.
(15:40):
So that was a little selfish offrom, from my, from my side.
Um, But, uh, when you respectthem as a strategist, they are
really the ones that arepersonalizing your systems and
enabling the teams to act on,on, on the accounts.
So, respect them, respect them,respect them.
And then finally, I would saylike, find some easy wins.
(16:03):
Some easy wins that you canshare between both teams or the
three teams or whatever youyou've been working with, with.
Um, those easy wins are gonnashow not only value for you, but
also to the organization.
So when I realized that therewere small things here and there
that we could share and that wecould show to the, to, to higher
management, it's when, when westarted to build that
(16:25):
relationship, and I'm not gonnasay that it's perfect or that I
have that relationshipeverywhere in the world, but at
least in one of the regions itwas successful and it was
something that they believed in.
And it was something that helpedme improve the way I was talking
to them and the way I was, um,working with them.
So, yeah, that's,
Michael Hartmann (16:46):
uh, no, I, I love that.
And like, I think that that is agreat example of how to build,
like, the way I describe it,like trusted long-term
relationships.
And part of that is being humbleto some degree, like confident
but humble, right?
I think is the term I phrase Ilike is, is but being humble to
say, look, I think you couldprovide, like I can learn from
(17:06):
you and then we can both kind ofget something that's gonna be of
value, even if it's a relativelysmall win.
Exactly.
And I think that's a.
Chris, I'm curious, so cuzyou've got an international
team, this is something I justthought of cuz we've had a
couple people on recently whoare, um, outside the US which is
great cuz we're, uh, liking thatperspective.
But as you've been working withthese teams in other global
(17:29):
regions, are you, are you justfinding challenging to, uh,
build relationships that way?
And then if so, are you doingthat mostly.
Remotely and virtually, or areyou able to go and meet
face-to-face in some cases?
Lorena Morales (17:46):
Dear Lord, that's one of the biggest
challenges that I think everyoneis, is experiencing after and,
and before Covid.
Um, however, I think I considermyself a citizen of the world.
Like I, I've been working andstudying in different cities all
over the world, and so I, I I, Iunderstand people culturally
(18:08):
deeper than any other humanbeing that you might meet.
Um, So coming from that angle,for me, it's not as hard as it
could be for others to connectvia Zoom.
At the very beginning, I, wewere, we were allowed to travel.
So there was this meeting inLondon where I got to meet the
heads of the regions and.
(18:29):
Where Michael, it was fantastic.
The feeling of like going for adrink because it goes farther
than just talking about what youare doing in X system or Y
system, or this process or thatprocess or what X is doing or,
or y Um, it's about what mattersto people.
And if you get to connect withpeople.
(18:49):
To, to personal fibers.
That's when you're gonnasucceed.
Because at the end, I, I, I, Isay this repeatedly, like you
are selling to account whatyou're selling to a person.
Yeah.
The same applies to your teams.
Like you're working with a team,but you are working with humans
and understanding what.
Makes them happy if they aregonna be parents soon, if they
(19:11):
are gonna, if they'reexperiencing a divorce, for
example, if they're experiencinga lack of sleep, if they're
experiencing things that are.
Vital for our human being tofunction.
Um, that's when the, theconnections really, really
happened.
So I was lucky enough to meetpart of my team in person, and
(19:31):
now I, I mean, I'm like, like I,I don't wanna sound arrogant or
anything, but I do believe thatI have one of the best teams
that I've ever had in my career,and that's because.
We connect very well, very, verywell to the through Zoom and in
and in person in those fewoccasions that I got to meet
them.
Michael Hartmann (19:49):
Yeah, I, my experience with working with
global teams is even a shortwindow of time in person.
It's everything.
It's everything.
It makes such a huge differenceand Yep.
And, and to your point, right,I, I've become a big fan of when
you.
And I learned this years agowhen I worked for another big
company, Texas Instruments.
We had a, a team that was,wasn't international, but it was
in another city in the us and Ialways felt like I had to
(20:13):
justify the travel expense.
So I'd schedule myself like backto back to back to back.
And then, um, in an invariably,like, it didn't really help.
What really made the differencewas when I intentionally left
open time.
Mm-hmm.
because that's when thoseconversations, so whether it was
going out for dinner or drinksor, but a lot of times it was.
walking by somebody's desk in anoffice and exactly there, there
(20:36):
was it, it, those kinds ofthings I think really make a
difference.
It's part of what, probably thebiggest thing I miss working
from home and remotely right nowis just not having those regular
opportunities to just run intoeach other and, and connect that
way.
And it can be about work, but itdoesn't have to be.
Lorena Morales (20:55):
Generally, it's not about work when you, when
you create those deepconnections, but I, I agree with
you.
Sometimes I, I mean, I'm notgonna lie, Michael, like I, I
love working from home.
I've always been, um, I'm anintrovert.
I have autism.
Like there are many things that,that I recently found about
myself that make working fromhome my ideal state.
(21:17):
Sure.
However, um, I understand verywell how.
To have a conversation withsomeone.
And you're right, like even inthe coffee break or like going
to the bathroom and you run intosomeone and suddenly you stay
with them like 15 minutes,that's gonna create a
connection.
And I was, again, lucky enoughthat, and in another occasion my
(21:40):
current boss came to SanFrancisco.
and we went for dinner.
And today I respect, I alreadyrespected her because of the
career that she's, she's had,she's this brilliant mind.
But like when I got to sit withher and learn about her kids and
her husband and her life andlike how she manages both, uh,
(22:02):
personal life and work, I waslike, holy mother, God, God,
like this woman is.
Superwoman, And so I am, I amlucky enough that I have her as
my manager, but it didn't, itcouldn't have happened to that
degree if she, if she, if shecouldn't have come to San
Francisco and spent some
Michael Hartmann (22:19):
time with me.
Yeah, it's, it's interesting, I,I just happened to have a
conversation with somebodyearlier today who wanted to sort
of pick my brain about maybestarting a podcast and it was
not a work related one.
It would be one more for kindof, um, I don't even know how to
describe it.
I want, anyway, long storyshort, I was told, I was like,
one of the things I think thatreally ma would make it.
(22:40):
Really resonate compared toothers that might overlap with
the target audience would be ifyou got people on who got really
vulnerable.
Right.
And I think there's, yeah,there's something like that.
So, uh, anyway, sorry I took usoff track there.
So let me So, uh, we'rerecording this in early 2023,
right?
We all kind of know that thecurrent economic situation.
(23:04):
Weird, bad.
I don't know how to describe itexactly.
And one of the impacts I thinkhas been the, the idea of
revenue operations, I thinkreally started at earlier stage
companies, right?
Mm-hmm.
um, startups and things likethat.
Um, and I think they're the onesthat are getting affected by
cuts and stuff like that, maybemore, more so than the general
economy, but, Do you think, Ken,what's your take?
(23:27):
Do you think that that's gonnaaffect the evolution or excel?
You know, is it gonna slow downor accelerate the, the move
towards revenue operations?
What do you think is gonnahappen from that standpoint?
Lorena Morales (23:39):
If we think about like, what is revenue
operations at its core?
I think the answer could be itwill.
It will only accelerate it.
Revenue operations means agilityand means effectiveness, and
means the sprinting in severalareas of the business.
And I think that will allowbusinesses to, as we were
(24:00):
saying, to double down in whatis working and cardwell what's
not.
Um, so, and, and this was one ofmy predictions that I gave to
Synchry, uh, a little while ago,uh, like last week or something
where I think individuals aregonna start making real time,
um, operational.
that are gonna be availablecross-functionally anytime,
(24:20):
anywhere.
Because, because you can'tafford to, to, to be the, the,
the, the person that, thatreports late or that your da
your data doesn't make sense oranything like that.
But like with the shortages of,of human capital and, and the
things that we're experiencing,unfortunately, I think this is a
(24:42):
time to be linear than ever, andto be nimble and to be very
intentional about what you aredoing, and if possible, become
indispensable for your company.
I, I, I, I understand thatnobody's indispensable because
companies are gonna get rid ofyou like this.
We are seeing that more thanever, but like, if there's a
time where you need to learnmore things and where you need
(25:04):
to to become more useful isright now, and revenue
operations allow.
People to do that becauserevenue Operations is a
cross-functional, um, entitythat should work with all
departments at simultaneously.
So when you think about it, ifone individual is, let's say the
(25:25):
director of Revenue Operations,that like, it's my case, um,
today, I need to find a way morethan ever to create more value
to, to the organization and findhidden revenue faster than ever.
Um, so if you, if you ask me, Ithink the, the, the, the
tendency of, of, of startingrevenue operations teams and to
(25:46):
really build those teamseffectively is gonna be right
now.
Michael Hartmann (25:51):
So, um, it's, I think this is interesting
because I think what you're,this.
Becoming a somewhat of a themeacross our episodes, a
different, sort of different,uh, from different ways.
But this idea that operationsteams, that part of the value
and part of the way they showthemselves as being strategic
is.
(26:12):
like leveraging their bothaccess and understanding of the
data that they have.
Mm-hmm.
right?
To uncover opportunities forwhether it's hidden, hidden
revenue or hidden ways at which,you know, you win better and
stuff like that.
So are you, do you think, here'smy, my concern with that?
I mean, I tend to agree withyou.
(26:32):
I think that's a place whereyou, like, you can add value if
you're in operations.
Cuz you should know the, youshould know the data well, you
should be able to have access toit.
So you should be able to carveout time.
My concern is that, I think thatis that there's a lot of people
in ops who, I think particularlyin marketing ops, if they're
relatively new and have beenheavily focused on, I'll call it
(26:54):
campaign operations mm-hmm.
is that they don't reallyunderstand how to, uh, analyze
data.
Right.
That it's a skill that is, Ithink, I think it's a skill,
that there's a gap with what isneeded.
The general population of peoplein the role have,
Lorena Morales (27:12):
I think it's not only marketing op Michael, I
think it's general marketing.
Like when you think, oh yeah,for sure.
When you think about themarketer of 2006 of 2011, all
the way to the marketer of 2023.
it has substantially changed andthat transition and
(27:33):
transformation happened to mebecause I, I come from like to,
to the audience that thinks thatin order to be in revenue
operations, you need to have anoperations background.
That's not true.
Like I come from traditionalmarketing or what it's called
traditional mark marketing, andI had to force myself.
To be comfortable in front of aSalesforce dashboard.
(27:54):
For example, I don't crackanymore if you put me in front
of a dashboard.
I
Michael Hartmann (27:58):
used to, I'm sorry.
I can't imagine you cracking onany of this.
So,
Lorena Morales (28:04):
well, I did.
I did at some point in my lifeand I was like, wait, but this
is not what I am used to.
Like my, my function is notbased, like, why should I learn
the data?
Like data is for the engineers.
And so that transition of likethe marketer now needs to.
Equal parts of science and art,it's beautiful.
(28:24):
Right now it's the, for me, it'sthe best time to be a marketer.
The best absolute time.
And there's a reason whymarketing ops people are in, in
race and they are like paying amassive amounts of money to
these, to these folks becauseone, they deserve it.
Mm-hmm.
And second, because they arekind of becoming the brains of
(28:46):
the organiz.
Michael Hartmann (28:48):
Yeah.
No, I, so I think my, my, basedon what you said, right, because
I think if I, if I can readbetween the lines, like you sort
of forced yourself to learn.
Yep, yep.
And you saw that that was gonnabe a key.
part of being successful.
So for all of our audience andlisteners, you know, take that
advice, right?
If you, if you wanna, you know,make yourself valuable, figure
(29:12):
out how you can leverage datathat you've got access to
because no one else in theorganization probably knows how
to do it better than you.
That's really, I think, themessage there.
Um, Okay.
So I think we covered this.
We may have covered this alittle bit, but, um, we talked
about like best practices andprinciples and that kind of
stuff.
Are you, is there, um, are thereany things that you see in how
(29:36):
you would've approached thingswhen you're either with or
advising a smaller earlier stagecompany than what you're seeing
or doing at jll?
Which, you know, there'sprobably something in between
too, but you know, in termthat's like the two extremes,
right?
Lorena Morales (29:53):
I think there are, um, items or tactics that
of, that are true to revenueoperations that.
That don't apply when, when youare, um, a multimillion, uh, or
actually a, a multi-billion, uh,company.
So for example, I was talkingearlier about sprinting.
(30:15):
Sprinting kind of doesn't applyin, in a bigger organization
simply because of the, of theamount of people in bulk.
But if we look.
Another, another skill, which isroad mapping that applies to
every single organization ofevery single size.
So you need to kind of pick andchoose and slice and dice the
(30:36):
the skills that a revenueoperations person has.
In order to, to apply them tothe, the stage of the company
that, that you are talkingabout.
Um, those are the two that I canthink right away, uh, here in,
in my mind.
I'm sure there are more andpeople are, can agree or
disagree with me, but, um,that's what, that what I have in
(30:56):
mind.
Right, right now.
Michael Hartmann (30:58):
Yeah, I, I think you're, that's, those are
good examples of two things thatwould be very different in the
state size stage company.
I think maybe one that, um, Ithink I've seen both at smaller
and larger companies as astruggle is just how do you
prioritize mm-hmm.
So say you come, so say you havea roadmap, right?
There's, there's.
Choosing how do you get fromwhere you are to where you want
(31:20):
to be?
There's different ways you couldapproach that.
Right?
Then you can only sort of take,make progress on part of it at a
time usually.
Um, do so I, I think of it, I,I, my guess is the sim a similar
structure would work regardlessof the size of the company if
you did it right.
But the speed at which you do itmight be different.
(31:41):
Exactly.
Exactly.
I.
Okay.
That, yeah.
That's interesting.
Um, do, do you, so you and I areboth at relatively large
companies and there's, there's apart of me that it may, it's,
it's hard to, to deal with thatlack of sprinting, but I
recognize that it's important,so it's, um, yeah, it's, it's a
(32:04):
challenge sometimes for sure.
It's
Lorena Morales (32:07):
something that I miss too, but.
because it's interesting to testthings as as rapid as you can,
but also it's nice to feel thatnot everything is a fire in your
hands.
Yeah.
It's, you know, it also givesyou a little peace of mind to
say like, okay, the world is notgonna end if I don't finish this
by Friday.
(32:28):
Yeah.
Um, It's, it's, it's justeverything in life has it's,
it's good things and it's badthings, so you just need to
choose, choose your poison,
Michael Hartmann (32:38):
right?
Yeah.
I, I have teenager, teenagers athome, so I try to tell them, cuz
they're.
prone to wanting to know likewhat's the right thing to do or
the wrong thing to do, or Rightdecision or wrong decision.
Like that's not how real lifeworks, right?
It's made up of a bunch oftradeoffs.
Mm-hmm.
and choosing which tradeoffsmatter more to you or the other
people in short term versus longterm, right?
(33:00):
Those are all things that, itdepends, right?
So yeah, the great consultinganswered everything, right?
It depends.
It depends.
it.
Um, what, so let's, one of thethings I think we all probably
also struggle with is how do weknow if our ops team is being
successful, right?
(33:22):
Do you, do you, how do you goabout measuring the, your, your,
you know, are you doing whatyou're supposed to be doing,
your effectiveness or yourteam's effectiveness?
How do you, how do you go aboutmeasuring that?
Because I, I know I strugglewith that sometimes.
I always wanted to tie it torevenue, but.
Step back from that because Ithink there's too many other
things outside of my team'scontrol.
(33:44):
There
Lorena Morales (33:44):
are two sides to, to this answer.
I think like the first one is,yes, you can tie to revenue
because you can measure velocityand therefore you can see faster
sales cycles.
So if you start seeing thatvelocity, um, uh, decreases,
that's, that's a good thing.
Uh, or like you start to seeless revenue leakages through
(34:05):
the.
Those are good signs that youroperations teams are working
together and that, and that youare doing things the right
direction.
But Michael, ultimately, I meanit's gonna sound again super
logic, but like it's gonna beyour customer that, that, that,
that will tell you because theywill feel less friction and oh
boy, they, they will let youknow.
Right now we are.
(34:26):
Hyper dramatic and hyper.
Um, ex, uh, uh, what's, what'sthe name?
Um, uh, e Extra.
Um, we want things our own way,in our own time, in our own
moment.
If not, we become babies and we,and we complain in every single
platform that we c have accessto.
(34:47):
Right.
So, if the experience feelssmoother, like for example, like
buying a Tesla where everythingfeels so easy and practical and
like if you think about likebuying a car in the 1990s or the
two thousands against how isbuying a Tesla right now?
Jesus Christ.
Like who would have imaginedthat you can buy everything and
(35:08):
personalize it in your phone andin 10 minutes you have a Tesla
uh, bot.
It's, it's crazy to me.
So it's how do you measureEurope's functions are, are
working and are workingtogether?
Well, ask your customer as yourcustomer, how is their
experience?
Because everything is, uh, isaround the customer, uh,
journey.
(35:28):
And so if they feel like theyhad a good experience with you,
if you have higher NPSs scores,which I kind of believe half,
half and half, because peoplenot always, um, put the right
thing on NPS S'S scores.
But if you.
Talking to your customersenough, you're gonna know if
you're doing things right.
Michael Hartmann (35:46):
Yeah.
I love that you're talking aboutcustomers, cuz I think that's
one thing I try to encourage allof our listeners regularly is
what, like, I appreciate theidea of internal customers, but
it's like fingernails on achalkboard to me.
Mm-hmm.
Like I mm-hmm.
I just don't like that term cuzI think customers are customers.
Right.
Exactly.
And, and if we lose sight ofthat, uh, and maybe it's just
(36:06):
words, but I think that thewords matter.
Like to me, if we're doingthings that make it easier for
us to do things, but it's harderfor our end customers to
actually engage with us inbusiness, then it's probably not
the right thing.
Exactly.
Exactly.
So, um, that, yeah.
So that's, that's great.
Um, any, do you have any other,I mean, do you have any specific
(36:27):
things you measure?
Like if Naomi was on here, Iknow she thinks about, um, like,
uh, How much are people actuallyusing platforms that they've got
in their tech stack and thingslike that as a measure?
Mm-hmm.
do you have anything like thatthat you look at?
Lorena Morales (36:42):
Not at the moment because I'm telling
revenue patients is very, verygreen at jll.
So we're starting like from thebasics.
So I don't, I don't measure, um,right now KPIs.
Operational performance, weshould Mm-hmm.
That doesn't mean that weshouldn't, we should.
Uh, but, but, uh, probably my,my brain is gonna take me to, to
(37:06):
what I told you, like to Yeah.
The customer to, to value.
Or to, to velocity, to velocity,to value to, to conversion
rates, uh, to kind of measurethe funnel and see if, if things
are marching the, the way theyare supposed.
Right now we are doing, uh,comparisons between the data of
2022, uh, to to, to 2021.
(37:29):
And I'll start to see like whathappened at this at the same
time of the year, but like theprevious year.
And so with those insights, weare kind of starting to, to see.
What are the trends in thecompany?
And so hopefully one day we'regonna be able to, to measure
operational
Michael Hartmann (37:46):
performance.
Yeah, that's great.
Awesome.
Uh, okay, so we've covered a lotof, you know, a lot of ground
here.
Let's see, Um, so let me just,I'll just open it up like, is
there anything else that like.
I think especially, it's reallyinteresting that you're, yeah.
How some of your, your viewshave maybe shifted a little bit
(38:08):
since you've been at jll.
Just is there anything else thatwe, you, you think would be
valuable for our, our listenersand our audience, um, that we
haven't covered thus far?
Lorena Morales (38:18):
I think I doubled down in what we were
covering on, on the kiplearning.
Where were you?
Say, like you, you had to learn.
Yes, I had to, but I.
Was open to do it because a lotof people are willing to, to, to
read something or to, because,because the job requires it.
But make it a muscle, make it a,a thing that you actually enjoy.
(38:39):
Um, again, and I'm gonna keepclicking on this because.
It's tough times that we werediscussing become useful,
becoming dispensable for yourorganization, especially in
these days.
Um, I think if, if that, ifthere's an advice I could give
to someone right now, it wouldbe that one.
Like go and, and, and beintentional about what you learn
(39:00):
and apply it.
Try to apply it in, in an, inwith friends make brain sessions
or, or as I call them, braindates.
I have a lot of brain dateswith, with people in the
industry where I just say like,how are you doing this?
Or how are you doing that?
I'm, I'm gonna, for example, I'mgonna enroll at the C R O school
from Pavilion next week becauseI wanna understand the, the role
(39:22):
of the, of the CRO and how tosit, apply to j.
regardless if I am a CRO or not.
Sure.
Um, be that type of person rightnow because your organization
needs it.
Um, so that's what I
Michael Hartmann (39:35):
would.
Love it.
Great.
Well, Lorena, this is, has beenfun.
Again, like just what, what itwas last time is if folks wanna
connect with you or keep us withwhat you're doing and learn from
you, what's the best way forthem to do that?
Lorena Morales (39:50):
LinkedIn is always the best way to, to
connect with me because I don'tdiscriminate.
I accept literally everyone.
Uh, please, if you're gonna sellme, sell me in the right way.
Uh, probably I'll buy, whoknows, but, uh, oh, there you
go.
But LinkedIn at, uh,linkedin.com/in/morales.
Lorena.
Um, you can find me there.
Michael Hartmann (40:11):
Perfect.
Well, Lorena, thank you so much.
It's been fun.
Uh, thanks to all of ourlisteners out there and, and all
of our audience.
We appreciate everything, socontinue to give us your
feedback and thoughts andsuggestions and ideas on topics
and guests.
And if you want to be one, justuh, hit up me, uh, Mike
Grizzler, Naomi Lou throughLinkedIn or the marketing
(40:32):
ops.com community.
Until next time, thankseverybody.
Lorena Morales (40:36):
Thank you everyone.
Thank you, Michael.
Bye.
Hello everyone.
Welcome to another episode ofOpsCast, brought to you by
Marketingops.com.
Powered by the MoPros.
I'm your host, Michael Hartmann,uh, today flying solo.
But I'm excited cuz today is ourfirst of what we hope will be,
uh, the beginning of a shortseries of episodes on general
topic areas, which is what weintend to try to make 2023 as
we're going into it.
(00:24):
A little more structured, andone of those topic areas is
working, is what we're gonnatalk about with this guest
today, which is how canmarketing ops teams work better
with, uh, other ops functions?
So kicking us off on thisepisode is actually one of our
first returning solo.
So first returning solo guest.
We have had one other personwho's been on one extra time,
(00:44):
but not by herself.
So Lorena Morales is joining usagain.
The last time she was here wason an episode in late 2021.
It doesn't feel like it's beenthat long.
So, um, Lorena is currentlyrevenue operations executive at
j Lll Technologies, and prior tothat, Lorena has held several
marketing operations leadershiproles.
She is also currently on theadvisory board with synchry and
(01:05):
is an active member of severalcommunities, including women in
revenue.
So Lorena, welcome back.
Thanks for joining.
Lorena Morales (01:11):
Thank you, Michael.
It's such an honor to be one ofthe, uh, back, uh, speakers
because, or guests in the showbecause it's, you have people
that I respect so much, and tobe back here is, is such an
honor.
So thank you.
Thank you, thank you.
Yeah.
As you said, um, yeah, I'mcurrently direct, uh, the
(01:31):
director of, um, Be marketingrevenue operations at j Lll, not
really JLL Technologies.
So, so there's a, there's acorrection there, but, uh,
because it's a separate company,but yes.
Um, it's been more, more than ayear, I think.
Yeah.
I look fast.
I process
Michael Hartmann (01:49):
so fast.
So we are recording this, uh,almost on the anniversary of our
first episode, two second,right, which was January.
This is January 13th.
23 and we, our first episode wasthe 15th of 21, and the episode
we recorded with you last timewas in like October of 2021,
which when I, when I looked backand saw that, I was like, could
(02:10):
it really have been that longago?
Because it doesn't feel like it.
Lorena Morales (02:14):
Yeah, I feel the same.
I feel like as you become anadult and you become older, time
passes by faster, unfortunately,and not, I hid that age already.
So sad, sad story
Michael Hartmann (02:25):
to me.
Yeah, I I, I remember telling myparents when I was a little bit
younger, but old, kind ofgetting older, and I was like,
you really undersold how fasttime goes by.
Yep.
Great.
Definitely.
So, um, it's, it's definitelysomething to keep up with.
Well, we're glad to have youback.
Um, it's, it's kind of fun.
I mean, it's hard to believethat we've had so many great
guests and that we have hadsuch, you know, fortunate to, to
(02:49):
have all of them.
And I suspect we'll probablyget, start having more people on
again.
But, um, glad to have you be thefirst.
So why don't we, but why don'twe start there with jll, not JLL
Technologies.
Yeah, I think you were, when welast talked, you had, I think,
had just started in that, inthat company, and so we're
starting to see some things thatwere kind of new to your, to you
(03:10):
in terms of your experiencemostly I think, at smaller
companies.
So maybe an update on likewhat's going on there and like
has anything new come up out ofthat that you think would be
relevant for our audience?
Yeah, actually
Lorena Morales (03:22):
what's not going on It's, uh, it's been quite of,
quite of a journey so far.
Um, after that, the, this yearthat has happened after we last
spoke, um, definitely now I havea bigger team.
So when we, when we weretalking, uh, back in, in
October, I.
(03:42):
Recently joined joining thecompany.
Yes, that's correct.
But, um, I didn't have a team ora big team, so now I am, I have
a bigger team, a global team,uh, that manages, I have my eyes
in Emia, my, my eyes in apac,and, uh, and my, my agency, a
global agency as well running,uh, Americas and also running
(04:05):
the other two regions.
So now I'm, I'm, I'm in chargeof, Regions that are more
profitable for the company, sothat.
Japan, China, Australia, India,Germany, France, Americas, and
probably I am missing onesomewhere there, uh, which is
not good because I should knowthis by heart.
But, uh,
Michael Hartmann (04:23):
it's, it been a long, as we were talking about
before this, it's been a longweek, long month already.
It, long
Lorena Morales (04:28):
week, long week, long week for me.
But, uh, what has changed isdefinitely I have a, a lean team
and a smart team that I madesure, I've always made sure to
hire people that.
Smarter than me in many ways andin many senses, and this is not
the, the, the exception, I madesure to hire really brilliant
minds in the space that, uh,already knew revenue operations
(04:53):
or that where to, to, to beembarking the journey of revenue
operations that had the abilityto, to be coachable and to learn
these, this function.
one of them is my, my analystwho had experience previously in
revenue operations.
So that was a role that I waslike this, this needs to be a
person that understands not onlythe concept, but the execution
(05:14):
of revenue operations.
And so today we have learnedthat revenue operations has
different flavors in differentorganizations.
We, which I know it might soundvery logic, but when you work
for a, for a company of thissize, 110.
Thousand employees.
Um, it's, it's quite a differentbeast.
(05:35):
And it's, and it's, and it'sbeen a, a curve, a learning
curve that I didn't expectbecause I had to unlearn a lot
of the things that I knew backin my days at, at a consultancy.
Um, but that's what, what haschanged a bigger team, more
responsibilities.
And now I'm part of theleadership team of digital
market.
Michael Hartmann (05:55):
That's great.
No, I, I, I love, I I'm withyou.
Like I wanna hire people whocould take my job, right.
At some point, right?
Maybe they're not there yet, butI think that's really important
to see them.
And I like the idea, like I alsolook for people who are
coachable.
I think that's a reallyimportant skill that is probably
underrated by a lot of people.
Right?
I think it's easy to find peoplewho can do.
(06:15):
what you need'em to do.
But if they need to learnsomething else, you wanna make
sure they can do that.
Yep.
So, yep, I'm good.
Yeah, I, it'll be, I think it'llbe interesting to hear more
about what that, that has beenlike, cuz that's, that is, j l L
is definitely a big company,right.
With global footprint.
So that's, it brings in a wholenother set of challenges.
(06:35):
I think that some of the folkswho are listening wouldn't
experience it, even if they'reat a moderately big size
company.
Mm-hmm.
so, Um, okay, so.
let's kind of get into this.
Like, so one of the reasons we,we've been wanting to be a
little more thoughtful andpurposeful about the topics we
wanna go into and do a littledeeper dive over a series of
(06:56):
episodes is just, I think whatwe've found is that there are
topics that resonate with peopleand we wanna go a little deeper,
um, in kind of a, a, a shorterperiod of time.
So when.
When we last talk, um, you, wetalked quite a bit about what
you were calling a, a, amaturity model for revenue
operations, and I, I kind ofremember little bits and pieces
of it, um, about how, you know,it goes from sort of centralized
(07:21):
to distributed and then back tocentralized again as kind of
the, if I remember right.
Uh, but is your thinking aboutthat still the same or has it
changed a little bit now thatyou've got a little more time at
jll?
Lorena Morales (07:35):
I think Michael, that's a great question because
with time, as I was saying, yourperspective of things change and
that's exactly what, whathappened a little bit.
So when, when I was talkinglast, last year or so about a
maturity model, it's, it'sbasically like a, like a
blueprint for event fighting.
What are the unique steps, um,an enterprise can take to
(07:57):
continuously improve revenues?
Because that's the whole point,right?
But today I realize thatmaturity, Not necessarily means
being in an X or Y state ofthings where, for example, all
your systems are working and,and communicating between each
other and probably you have an80% accuracy on your forecasting
models and, uh, and then, andyou have this blue sky and
(08:21):
that's when you call the, the,the model that mature enough.
No, I think it means movement.
And when I say movement, I.
That, for example, anorganization that is already
willing to interview theircustomers at least once a month
or so is already maturing towhat level?
(08:41):
That depends heavily on, on whatthe company needs.
But like for example, someonealready measuring L T B is also
maturing.
Like that is, that is mamaturing for me.
Like I think my vision haschanged to from.
Thinking that I need to reachcertain level to understanding
that movement is movementforward to the sides, uh, a
(09:03):
little backwards if you're gonnatake, um, uh, if you are gonna
take two steps back and you'regonna take four steps forward
and go backwards.
But, um, it's movement for me,uh, uh, at the end.
And, and yes, so to your, toanswer your question, it has
changed a little bit and I haveseen that the little
improvements that the team hasdone in, for example, lead
(09:23):
management, is, is a sign ofmaturity and it's a sign that
we're doing things the rightway.
Michael Hartmann (09:31):
Yeah, I, that's really interesting.
I like when you said that, thatthe movement, it, it brought me
back to remembering what we've,you know, a lot of people say,
uh, like, practice makesperfect, right?
Mm-hmm.
and one of the things we'vealways done with our kids is
say, practice makes progress,right?
And.
That's, that's kind of what Ithought of when you were there,
was like the, the idea thatthere is some perfect state,
(09:52):
right.
Some maturity model and once youget there, you're done.
Right.
You just keep it going.
Right is a myth, I think is whatyou're saying.
Right.
And so, but you can always makeprogress and get better and I
think it's, it's, it falls intothat category of you don't know
what you don't know until you'rethere.
Lorena Morales (10:07):
Exactly.
Exactly.
Exactly.
And that's, that's one of thethings that I had to accept.
Like I only knew what I knew.
And, and there's even aframework for that, uh, in
design thinking, which is whatwe discussed last time, which
we're not gonna discuss rightnow because it could be too
much.
But, uh, it's, you, you areright.
Like you don't know what youdon't know.
(10:28):
And, and then you need to beuncovering things as you go and
figuring things out as you gothe same way.
Yeah.
Michael Hartmann (10:34):
I think that ties in with one of my sort of.
I don't know, soapbox topics,which is like, I don't like the
idea of, or what I think whatthe way some people interpret
the term best practices, cuz Ithink oof Right.
Okay.
So we're maybe we're on thesame, because I think like the
myth there to me is that youjust take what you did before.
It just, it you, you drop ineverything the same and it
(10:56):
works, but.
It doesn't because everycompany's different.
The people are different.
Their skills and experience, theculture, like all those things
have an impact on whether or notsomething could be just as
effective.
Yeah,
Lorena Morales (11:09):
I agree.
I agree.
Especially with revenueoperations where, and I and I,
and I did that phase.
I made that phase because I, Ifind it very funny when people
talk about best practices inrevenue operations.
and I was just having theseconversations with Rosalyn
Santana and I was like, there'sno best practices.
This is such a new, um,function.
(11:31):
Well, it's a methodology thatbecomes a function, uh, that you
can't really say that there's abest practice.
There are things that work thatyou should double down on, and
then there are things that, thatyou, you should keep improving.
But something such as bestpractices of revenue operations,
I don't think they exist atleast.
Michael Hartmann (11:51):
No, I, I mean, I like to think of things in
terms of, I guess I'd call itprinciples that I like to adhere
to.
So things like, mm-hmm.
um, like I, I'll give anexample.
So if there's a choice between,uh, making a system.
Sort of force people to docertain things or not because
you're worried that there'sgonna be some downstream impact,
(12:13):
like they're gonna make amistake.
Um, but that's gonna slow downor make it less likely that,
let's say salespeople lesslikely that they're gonna put
their information in Salesforce.
Mm-hmm.
like I would, I would generally,from a principal standpoint, Try
to trust those people to do theright thing and put less
structure in because I think Iwant, like what's important to
that, to them is that they areable to do their job, that we
(12:36):
can get stuff and that we canwork with them on sort of
emphasizing why it's importantto do this.
and we won't always geteverybody, but if we sort of
force it and make it toocomplicated, we'll never get any
of it.
It won't work.
Yeah.
Right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So, uh, that to me, that's agood, like, that's a principle,
but that's my, like a principle.
I wouldn't say it's a bestpractice and how that gets
applied in any particularsituation can vary.
(12:59):
I agree.
I agree.
All right.
We're done.
I like that.
I'll take that.
I'll take that.
Um, Well, yeah, we mentionedRosalyn.
We need to get Rosalyn on heresometime too.
So Rosalyn, if you're listening,what are we calling you again?
Lorena Morales (13:15):
Come here.
Come here, Rosalyn.
Michael Hartmann (13:17):
Yeah.
Um, okay, so that's interestingthat you, how that's evolved and
I think we're in aligned on someof those things.
Okay.
So most of our audiences,marketing ops folks, and they're
I think sure some marketers and,and rev ops people as well.
Um, some of the marketing opsfolks, we who are listening are
probably either.
(13:38):
You know, not, they're not,maybe they're not in revenue
operations under a team thatcovers all the go-to-market
operations functions.
Um, maybe they are anticipatingthat's gonna happen or they know
it's gonna happen.
Maybe in particular they'regonna merge with sales ops.
Right.
Um, what, what do you think theycould do in whether that's gonna
(13:58):
happen or not, like a rev opsfunction is gonna happen?
What do you think marketer opsfolks can do to say better work
with their sales ops teams?
so that you know they can startto work better.
Because I think a lot of reasonswhy Rev ops has come around is
cuz there's like not group, notteams working together Well,
Lorena Morales (14:16):
I agree.
I agree.
And, and when I came to, to jLll, um, I realized that we
didn't have that relationshipwith the sales op uh, guys.
Well we in, in some regions wedon't even have the function,
but.
So I, so I, we use Forester fora lot of things, um, in the
organization.
And so I, I ran to them and Iwas like, please help me.
(14:39):
How do I communicate effectivelywith, with my, with my peers?
Because they're, seems likethey're on the other side of the
fence and I can't get there.
I just can't get there.
And the answer were was assimple as, you're not talking
the same language.
You're, you're not speaking thesame language.
So I.
that my mistake was, I wascoming from a perspective of,
(15:00):
Hey, I need this.
Instead of looking at theroadmap and see which things can
or cannot be prioritized.
Um, so what I, what I mean bythat, and what I wanna say by
that is, I was not respectingthem as strategists, and that
was my first mistake.
So I believe, I believe alloperators are gonna, or, or are,
(15:20):
are becoming strategists in manyways.
Not only the sales ops, but alsothe marketing ops and the
customers obsess ops.
But, um, I, I, I truly believethat what I was not applying
what I, what I believe, I hadvalue to show at the
organization, right?
So I thought that my needs weremore important than any other.
(15:40):
So that was a little selfish offrom, from my, from my side.
Um, But, uh, when you respectthem as a strategist, they are
really the ones that arepersonalizing your systems and
enabling the teams to act on,on, on the accounts.
So, respect them, respect them,respect them.
And then finally, I would saylike, find some easy wins.
(16:03):
Some easy wins that you canshare between both teams or the
three teams or whatever youyou've been working with, with.
Um, those easy wins are gonnashow not only value for you, but
also to the organization.
So when I realized that therewere small things here and there
that we could share and that wecould show to the, to, to higher
management, it's when, when westarted to build that
(16:25):
relationship, and I'm not gonnasay that it's perfect or that I
have that relationshipeverywhere in the world, but at
least in one of the regions itwas successful and it was
something that they believed in.
And it was something that helpedme improve the way I was talking
to them and the way I was, um,working with them.
So, yeah, that's,
Michael Hartmann (16:46):
uh, no, I, I love that.
And like, I think that that is agreat example of how to build,
like, the way I describe it,like trusted long-term
relationships.
And part of that is being humbleto some degree, like confident
but humble, right?
I think is the term I phrase Ilike is, is but being humble to
say, look, I think you couldprovide, like I can learn from
(17:06):
you and then we can both kind ofget something that's gonna be of
value, even if it's a relativelysmall win.
Exactly.
And I think that's a.
Chris, I'm curious, so cuzyou've got an international
team, this is something I justthought of cuz we've had a
couple people on recently whoare, um, outside the US which is
great cuz we're, uh, liking thatperspective.
But as you've been working withthese teams in other global
(17:29):
regions, are you, are you justfinding challenging to, uh,
build relationships that way?
And then if so, are you doingthat mostly.
Remotely and virtually, or areyou able to go and meet
face-to-face in some cases?
Lorena Morales (17:46):
Dear Lord, that's one of the biggest
challenges that I think everyoneis, is experiencing after and,
and before Covid.
Um, however, I think I considermyself a citizen of the world.
Like I, I've been working andstudying in different cities all
over the world, and so I, I I, Iunderstand people culturally
(18:08):
deeper than any other humanbeing that you might meet.
Um, So coming from that angle,for me, it's not as hard as it
could be for others to connectvia Zoom.
At the very beginning, I, wewere, we were allowed to travel.
So there was this meeting inLondon where I got to meet the
heads of the regions and.
(18:29):
Where Michael, it was fantastic.
The feeling of like going for adrink because it goes farther
than just talking about what youare doing in X system or Y
system, or this process or thatprocess or what X is doing or,
or y Um, it's about what mattersto people.
And if you get to connect withpeople.
(18:49):
To, to personal fibers.
That's when you're gonnasucceed.
Because at the end, I, I, I, Isay this repeatedly, like you
are selling to account whatyou're selling to a person.
Yeah.
The same applies to your teams.
Like you're working with a team,but you are working with humans
and understanding what.
Makes them happy if they aregonna be parents soon, if they
(19:11):
are gonna, if they'reexperiencing a divorce, for
example, if they're experiencinga lack of sleep, if they're
experiencing things that are.
Vital for our human being tofunction.
Um, that's when the, theconnections really, really
happened.
So I was lucky enough to meetpart of my team in person, and
(19:31):
now I, I mean, I'm like, like I,I don't wanna sound arrogant or
anything, but I do believe thatI have one of the best teams
that I've ever had in my career,and that's because.
We connect very well, very, verywell to the through Zoom and in
and in person in those fewoccasions that I got to meet
them.
Michael Hartmann (19:49):
Yeah, I, my experience with working with
global teams is even a shortwindow of time in person.
It's everything.
It's everything.
It makes such a huge differenceand Yep.
And, and to your point, right,I, I've become a big fan of when
you.
And I learned this years agowhen I worked for another big
company, Texas Instruments.
We had a, a team that was,wasn't international, but it was
in another city in the us and Ialways felt like I had to
(20:13):
justify the travel expense.
So I'd schedule myself like backto back to back to back.
And then, um, in an invariably,like, it didn't really help.
What really made the differencewas when I intentionally left
open time.
Mm-hmm.
because that's when thoseconversations, so whether it was
going out for dinner or drinksor, but a lot of times it was.
walking by somebody's desk in anoffice and exactly there, there
(20:36):
was it, it, those kinds ofthings I think really make a
difference.
It's part of what, probably thebiggest thing I miss working
from home and remotely right nowis just not having those regular
opportunities to just run intoeach other and, and connect that
way.
And it can be about work, but itdoesn't have to be.
Lorena Morales (20:55):
Generally, it's not about work when you, when
you create those deepconnections, but I, I agree with
you.
Sometimes I, I mean, I'm notgonna lie, Michael, like I, I
love working from home.
I've always been, um, I'm anintrovert.
I have autism.
Like there are many things that,that I recently found about
myself that make working fromhome my ideal state.
(21:17):
Sure.
However, um, I understand verywell how.
To have a conversation withsomeone.
And you're right, like even inthe coffee break or like going
to the bathroom and you run intosomeone and suddenly you stay
with them like 15 minutes,that's gonna create a
connection.
And I was, again, lucky enoughthat, and in another occasion my
(21:40):
current boss came to SanFrancisco.
and we went for dinner.
And today I respect, I alreadyrespected her because of the
career that she's, she's had,she's this brilliant mind.
But like when I got to sit withher and learn about her kids and
her husband and her life andlike how she manages both, uh,
(22:02):
personal life and work, I waslike, holy mother, God, God,
like this woman is.
Superwoman, And so I am, I amlucky enough that I have her as
my manager, but it didn't, itcouldn't have happened to that
degree if she, if she, if shecouldn't have come to San
Francisco and spent some
Michael Hartmann (22:19):
time with me.
Yeah, it's, it's interesting, I,I just happened to have a
conversation with somebodyearlier today who wanted to sort
of pick my brain about maybestarting a podcast and it was
not a work related one.
It would be one more for kindof, um, I don't even know how to
describe it.
I want, anyway, long storyshort, I was told, I was like,
one of the things I think thatreally ma would make it.
(22:40):
Really resonate compared toothers that might overlap with
the target audience would be ifyou got people on who got really
vulnerable.
Right.
And I think there's, yeah,there's something like that.
So, uh, anyway, sorry I took usoff track there.
So let me So, uh, we'rerecording this in early 2023,
right?
We all kind of know that thecurrent economic situation.
(23:04):
Weird, bad.
I don't know how to describe itexactly.
And one of the impacts I thinkhas been the, the idea of
revenue operations, I thinkreally started at earlier stage
companies, right?
Mm-hmm.
um, startups and things likethat.
Um, and I think they're the onesthat are getting affected by
cuts and stuff like that, maybemore, more so than the general
economy, but, Do you think, Ken,what's your take?
(23:27):
Do you think that that's gonnaaffect the evolution or excel?
You know, is it gonna slow downor accelerate the, the move
towards revenue operations?
What do you think is gonnahappen from that standpoint?
Lorena Morales (23:39):
If we think about like, what is revenue
operations at its core?
I think the answer could be itwill.
It will only accelerate it.
Revenue operations means agilityand means effectiveness, and
means the sprinting in severalareas of the business.
And I think that will allowbusinesses to, as we were
(24:00):
saying, to double down in whatis working and cardwell what's
not.
Um, so, and, and this was one ofmy predictions that I gave to
Synchry, uh, a little while ago,uh, like last week or something
where I think individuals aregonna start making real time,
um, operational.
that are gonna be availablecross-functionally anytime,
(24:20):
anywhere.
Because, because you can'tafford to, to, to be the, the,
the, the person that, thatreports late or that your da
your data doesn't make sense oranything like that.
But like with the shortages of,of human capital and, and the
things that we're experiencing,unfortunately, I think this is a
(24:42):
time to be linear than ever, andto be nimble and to be very
intentional about what you aredoing, and if possible, become
indispensable for your company.
I, I, I, I understand thatnobody's indispensable because
companies are gonna get rid ofyou like this.
We are seeing that more thanever, but like, if there's a
time where you need to learnmore things and where you need
(25:04):
to to become more useful isright now, and revenue
operations allow.
People to do that becauserevenue Operations is a
cross-functional, um, entitythat should work with all
departments at simultaneously.
So when you think about it, ifone individual is, let's say the
(25:25):
director of Revenue Operations,that like, it's my case, um,
today, I need to find a way morethan ever to create more value
to, to the organization and findhidden revenue faster than ever.
Um, so if you, if you ask me, Ithink the, the, the, the
tendency of, of, of startingrevenue operations teams and to
(25:46):
really build those teamseffectively is gonna be right
now.
Michael Hartmann (25:51):
So, um, it's, I think this is interesting
because I think what you're,this.
Becoming a somewhat of a themeacross our episodes, a
different, sort of different,uh, from different ways.
But this idea that operationsteams, that part of the value
and part of the way they showthemselves as being strategic
is.
(26:12):
like leveraging their bothaccess and understanding of the
data that they have.
Mm-hmm.
right?
To uncover opportunities forwhether it's hidden, hidden
revenue or hidden ways at which,you know, you win better and
stuff like that.
So are you, do you think, here'smy, my concern with that?
I mean, I tend to agree withyou.
(26:32):
I think that's a place whereyou, like, you can add value if
you're in operations.
Cuz you should know the, youshould know the data well, you
should be able to have access toit.
So you should be able to carveout time.
My concern is that, I think thatis that there's a lot of people
in ops who, I think particularlyin marketing ops, if they're
relatively new and have beenheavily focused on, I'll call it
(26:54):
campaign operations mm-hmm.
is that they don't reallyunderstand how to, uh, analyze
data.
Right.
That it's a skill that is, Ithink, I think it's a skill,
that there's a gap with what isneeded.
The general population of peoplein the role have,
Lorena Morales (27:12):
I think it's not only marketing op Michael, I
think it's general marketing.
Like when you think, oh yeah,for sure.
When you think about themarketer of 2006 of 2011, all
the way to the marketer of 2023.
it has substantially changed andthat transition and
(27:33):
transformation happened to mebecause I, I come from like to,
to the audience that thinks thatin order to be in revenue
operations, you need to have anoperations background.
That's not true.
Like I come from traditionalmarketing or what it's called
traditional mark marketing, andI had to force myself.
To be comfortable in front of aSalesforce dashboard.
(27:54):
For example, I don't crackanymore if you put me in front
of a dashboard.
I
Michael Hartmann (27:58):
used to, I'm sorry.
I can't imagine you cracking onany of this.
So,
Lorena Morales (28:04):
well, I did.
I did at some point in my lifeand I was like, wait, but this
is not what I am used to.
Like my, my function is notbased, like, why should I learn
the data?
Like data is for the engineers.
And so that transition of likethe marketer now needs to.
Equal parts of science and art,it's beautiful.
(28:24):
Right now it's the, for me, it'sthe best time to be a marketer.
The best absolute time.
And there's a reason whymarketing ops people are in, in
race and they are like paying amassive amounts of money to
these, to these folks becauseone, they deserve it.
Mm-hmm.
And second, because they arekind of becoming the brains of
(28:46):
the organiz.
Michael Hartmann (28:48):
Yeah.
No, I, so I think my, my, basedon what you said, right, because
I think if I, if I can readbetween the lines, like you sort
of forced yourself to learn.
Yep, yep.
And you saw that that was gonnabe a key.
part of being successful.
So for all of our audience andlisteners, you know, take that
advice, right?
If you, if you wanna, you know,make yourself valuable, figure
(29:12):
out how you can leverage datathat you've got access to
because no one else in theorganization probably knows how
to do it better than you.
That's really, I think, themessage there.
Um, Okay.
So I think we covered this.
We may have covered this alittle bit, but, um, we talked
about like best practices andprinciples and that kind of
stuff.
Are you, is there, um, are thereany things that you see in how
(29:36):
you would've approached thingswhen you're either with or
advising a smaller earlier stagecompany than what you're seeing
or doing at jll?
Which, you know, there'sprobably something in between
too, but you know, in termthat's like the two extremes,
right?
Lorena Morales (29:53):
I think there are, um, items or tactics that
of, that are true to revenueoperations that.
That don't apply when, when youare, um, a multimillion, uh, or
actually a, a multi-billion, uh,company.
So for example, I was talkingearlier about sprinting.
(30:15):
Sprinting kind of doesn't applyin, in a bigger organization
simply because of the, of theamount of people in bulk.
But if we look.
Another, another skill, which isroad mapping that applies to
every single organization ofevery single size.
So you need to kind of pick andchoose and slice and dice the
(30:36):
the skills that a revenueoperations person has.
In order to, to apply them tothe, the stage of the company
that, that you are talkingabout.
Um, those are the two that I canthink right away, uh, here in,
in my mind.
I'm sure there are more andpeople are, can agree or
disagree with me, but, um,that's what, that what I have in
(30:56):
mind.
Right, right now.
Michael Hartmann (30:58):
Yeah, I, I think you're, that's, those are
good examples of two things thatwould be very different in the
state size stage company.
I think maybe one that, um, Ithink I've seen both at smaller
and larger companies as astruggle is just how do you
prioritize mm-hmm.
So say you come, so say you havea roadmap, right?
There's, there's.
Choosing how do you get fromwhere you are to where you want
(31:20):
to be?
There's different ways you couldapproach that.
Right?
Then you can only sort of take,make progress on part of it at a
time usually.
Um, do so I, I think of it, I,I, my guess is the sim a similar
structure would work regardlessof the size of the company if
you did it right.
But the speed at which you do itmight be different.
(31:41):
Exactly.
Exactly.
I.
Okay.
That, yeah.
That's interesting.
Um, do, do you, so you and I areboth at relatively large
companies and there's, there's apart of me that it may, it's,
it's hard to, to deal with thatlack of sprinting, but I
recognize that it's important,so it's, um, yeah, it's, it's a
(32:04):
challenge sometimes for sure.
It's
Lorena Morales (32:07):
something that I miss too, but.
because it's interesting to testthings as as rapid as you can,
but also it's nice to feel thatnot everything is a fire in your
hands.
Yeah.
It's, you know, it also givesyou a little peace of mind to
say like, okay, the world is notgonna end if I don't finish this
by Friday.
(32:28):
Yeah.
Um, It's, it's, it's justeverything in life has it's,
it's good things and it's badthings, so you just need to
choose, choose your poison,
Michael Hartmann (32:38):
right?
Yeah.
I, I have teenager, teenagers athome, so I try to tell them, cuz
they're.
prone to wanting to know likewhat's the right thing to do or
the wrong thing to do, or Rightdecision or wrong decision.
Like that's not how real lifeworks, right?
It's made up of a bunch oftradeoffs.
Mm-hmm.
and choosing which tradeoffsmatter more to you or the other
people in short term versus longterm, right?
(33:00):
Those are all things that, itdepends, right?
So yeah, the great consultinganswered everything, right?
It depends.
It depends.
it.
Um, what, so let's, one of thethings I think we all probably
also struggle with is how do weknow if our ops team is being
successful, right?
(33:22):
Do you, do you, how do you goabout measuring the, your, your,
you know, are you doing whatyou're supposed to be doing,
your effectiveness or yourteam's effectiveness?
How do you, how do you go aboutmeasuring that?
Because I, I know I strugglewith that sometimes.
I always wanted to tie it torevenue, but.
Step back from that because Ithink there's too many other
things outside of my team'scontrol.
(33:44):
There
Lorena Morales (33:44):
are two sides to, to this answer.
I think like the first one is,yes, you can tie to revenue
because you can measure velocityand therefore you can see faster
sales cycles.
So if you start seeing thatvelocity, um, uh, decreases,
that's, that's a good thing.
Uh, or like you start to seeless revenue leakages through
(34:05):
the.
Those are good signs that youroperations teams are working
together and that, and that youare doing things the right
direction.
But Michael, ultimately, I meanit's gonna sound again super
logic, but like it's gonna beyour customer that, that, that,
that will tell you because theywill feel less friction and oh
boy, they, they will let youknow.
Right now we are.
(34:26):
Hyper dramatic and hyper.
Um, ex, uh, uh, what's, what'sthe name?
Um, uh, e Extra.
Um, we want things our own way,in our own time, in our own
moment.
If not, we become babies and we,and we complain in every single
platform that we c have accessto.
(34:47):
Right.
So, if the experience feelssmoother, like for example, like
buying a Tesla where everythingfeels so easy and practical and
like if you think about likebuying a car in the 1990s or the
two thousands against how isbuying a Tesla right now?
Jesus Christ.
Like who would have imaginedthat you can buy everything and
(35:08):
personalize it in your phone andin 10 minutes you have a Tesla
uh, bot.
It's, it's crazy to me.
So it's how do you measureEurope's functions are, are
working and are workingtogether?
Well, ask your customer as yourcustomer, how is their
experience?
Because everything is, uh, isaround the customer, uh,
journey.
(35:28):
And so if they feel like theyhad a good experience with you,
if you have higher NPSs scores,which I kind of believe half,
half and half, because peoplenot always, um, put the right
thing on NPS S'S scores.
But if you.
Talking to your customersenough, you're gonna know if
you're doing things right.
Michael Hartmann (35:46):
Yeah.
I love that you're talking aboutcustomers, cuz I think that's
one thing I try to encourage allof our listeners regularly is
what, like, I appreciate theidea of internal customers, but
it's like fingernails on achalkboard to me.
Mm-hmm.
Like I mm-hmm.
I just don't like that term cuzI think customers are customers.
Right.
Exactly.
And, and if we lose sight ofthat, uh, and maybe it's just
(36:06):
words, but I think that thewords matter.
Like to me, if we're doingthings that make it easier for
us to do things, but it's harderfor our end customers to
actually engage with us inbusiness, then it's probably not
the right thing.
Exactly.
Exactly.
So, um, that, yeah.
So that's, that's great.
Um, any, do you have any other,I mean, do you have any specific
(36:27):
things you measure?
Like if Naomi was on here, Iknow she thinks about, um, like,
uh, How much are people actuallyusing platforms that they've got
in their tech stack and thingslike that as a measure?
Mm-hmm.
do you have anything like thatthat you look at?
Lorena Morales (36:42):
Not at the moment because I'm telling
revenue patients is very, verygreen at jll.
So we're starting like from thebasics.
So I don't, I don't measure, um,right now KPIs.
Operational performance, weshould Mm-hmm.
That doesn't mean that weshouldn't, we should.
Uh, but, but, uh, probably my,my brain is gonna take me to, to
(37:06):
what I told you, like to Yeah.
The customer to, to value.
Or to, to velocity, to velocity,to value to, to conversion
rates, uh, to kind of measurethe funnel and see if, if things
are marching the, the way theyare supposed.
Right now we are doing, uh,comparisons between the data of
2022, uh, to to, to 2021.
(37:29):
And I'll start to see like whathappened at this at the same
time of the year, but like theprevious year.
And so with those insights, weare kind of starting to, to see.
What are the trends in thecompany?
And so hopefully one day we'regonna be able to, to measure
operational
Michael Hartmann (37:46):
performance.
Yeah, that's great.
Awesome.
Uh, okay, so we've covered a lotof, you know, a lot of ground
here.
Let's see, Um, so let me just,I'll just open it up like, is
there anything else that like.
I think especially, it's reallyinteresting that you're, yeah.
How some of your, your viewshave maybe shifted a little bit
(38:08):
since you've been at jll.
Just is there anything else thatwe, you, you think would be
valuable for our, our listenersand our audience, um, that we
haven't covered thus far?
Lorena Morales (38:18):
I think I doubled down in what we were
covering on, on the kiplearning.
Where were you?
Say, like you, you had to learn.
Yes, I had to, but I.
Was open to do it because a lotof people are willing to, to, to
read something or to, because,because the job requires it.
But make it a muscle, make it a,a thing that you actually enjoy.
(38:39):
Um, again, and I'm gonna keepclicking on this because.
It's tough times that we werediscussing become useful,
becoming dispensable for yourorganization, especially in
these days.
Um, I think if, if that, ifthere's an advice I could give
to someone right now, it wouldbe that one.
Like go and, and, and beintentional about what you learn
(39:00):
and apply it.
Try to apply it in, in an, inwith friends make brain sessions
or, or as I call them, braindates.
I have a lot of brain dateswith, with people in the
industry where I just say like,how are you doing this?
Or how are you doing that?
I'm, I'm gonna, for example, I'mgonna enroll at the C R O school
from Pavilion next week becauseI wanna understand the, the role
(39:22):
of the, of the CRO and how tosit, apply to j.
regardless if I am a CRO or not.
Sure.
Um, be that type of person rightnow because your organization
needs it.
Um, so that's what I
Michael Hartmann (39:35):
would.
Love it.
Great.
Well, Lorena, this is, has beenfun.
Again, like just what, what itwas last time is if folks wanna
connect with you or keep us withwhat you're doing and learn from
you, what's the best way forthem to do that?
Lorena Morales (39:50):
LinkedIn is always the best way to, to
connect with me because I don'tdiscriminate.
I accept literally everyone.
Uh, please, if you're gonna sellme, sell me in the right way.
Uh, probably I'll buy, whoknows, but, uh, oh, there you
go.
But LinkedIn at, uh,linkedin.com/in/morales.
Lorena.
Um, you can find me there.
Michael Hartmann (40:11):
Perfect.
Well, Lorena, thank you so much.
It's been fun.
Uh, thanks to all of ourlisteners out there and, and all
of our audience.
We appreciate everything, socontinue to give us your
feedback and thoughts andsuggestions and ideas on topics
and guests.
And if you want to be one, justuh, hit up me, uh, Mike
Grizzler, Naomi Lou throughLinkedIn or the marketing
(40:32):
ops.com community.
Until next time, thankseverybody.
Lorena Morales (40:36):
Thank you everyone.
Thank you, Michael.
Bye.
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