March 23, 2025 • 29 mins
In this episode of Peaceful Life Radio, hosts David Lowry and Don Drew welcome Shelley Goodell, a therapy candidate specializing in family addiction. Shelley shares her personal battle with addiction, her journey into the world of therapy, and the impact of addiction on family dynamics. The discussion covers addiction's pervasive effects, enabling behaviors, and actionable steps for those seeking help. With valuable book recommendations and expert advice, this episode offers hope and practical guidance for anyone affected by addiction.
00:00 Introduction to Peaceful Life Radio
00:47 Today's Topic: Addiction in Families
01:09 Meet Shelly Goodell: A Journey to Counseling
03:14 Shelly's Personal Struggle with Addiction
05:34 The Impact of Addiction on Families
06:28 Self-Compassion and Understanding Addiction
08:03 Supporting a Loved One with Addiction
10:08 Setting Boundaries and Seeking Help
14:32 Recognizing and Addressing Enabling Behaviors
17:23 Finding Hope and Community Support
24:57 Resources and Recommendations
27:25 Conclusion and Final Thoughts
Visit the Peaceful Life Radio website for more information. Peaceful Life Productions LLP produces this podcast, which helps nonprofits and small businesses share their stories and expertise through accessible and cost-effective podcasts and websites. For more information, please contact us at info@peacefullifeproductions.com.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Shelley Goodell (00:00):
If you've ever loved someone who was addicted
or been addicted yourself, ithas tentacles.
It tentacles out to your family,to your community, to your work,
to your social life, and cancreate a lot of stress and a lot
of anxiety for those around you.
It can affect children in thehome.
(00:21):
It can affect grandparents.
Whomever loves the addict isimpacted.
David Lowry (00:27):
And that was Shelly Goodell, a therapy candidate
starting her therapy supervisionin the second half of life.
I'm David Lowry And you'relistening to Peaceful Life
Radio, where we navigate thesecond half of life with
purpose, wisdom, and grace.
And with me today is my goodfriend, Don Drew.
Don, why don't you introduce ourguest today?
Don Drew (00:47):
I would absolutely love to introduce our guest, but
let me start off by saying whatwe're talking about today.
Okay.
It's a serious topic.
We're going to be talking aboutaddiction.
Specifically we're going to betalking about addictions in
families.
And we want to get around todiscussing what a person's role
might be in helping this familymember or in some cases not.
(01:07):
What are our responsibilities?
In order to do that, we've gotwith us today, Shellely Goodell.
She's got a master's incounseling from Southwestern
College in New Mexico, which isa very highly regarded program
promoting mind, body, and spiritapproach to therapy.
And she's also done aninternship with the Sky Center
in New Mexico, which alsoprovides therapy to families
(01:28):
with suicidal youth, addictionconcerns, eating disorders, and
so on.
But before I say anything else,let me turn over to Shellely and
say, Shellely, welcome.
And we're glad you're here.
And tell us anything else youwant us to know about yourself.
Shelley Goodell (01:42):
Thank you for having me.
I'm so glad to be here.
Yes.
So I ended up in counseling inthe second half of life which I
know is a popular theme on thispodcast, but I actually started
my career in human resources andleadership roles for about 25
(02:04):
years where I led employeerelations groups and recruiting
groups and organizationaldevelopment groups, training
leaders on conflict resolution,inclusion and diversity and a
host of other things.
Then COVID hit and I had beenthinking about what I wanted to
(02:25):
do differently in the secondhalf of life.
And counseling has always beenattractive to me.
And a lot of the reason for thatis my own mental health issues.
And so I wanted to do a deepdive exploration.
I'd been in therapy for manyyears and wanted to see if I had
(02:46):
anything to offer others that ifI could help in any way.
So I now work in communityhealth, mental health.
And I am a candidate, atherapist candidate, meaning I'm
under supervision.
So, I haven't been a newbie inanything for a really long time.
But I'm a newbie to therapy andI'm really excited about that.
David Lowry (03:09):
Welcome to the second half of life.
Shelley Goodell (03:11):
Thank you.
Don Drew (03:11):
So, Shellely, what do you want to tell us about
addictions?
Shelley Goodell (03:14):
Yeah, so I think I'll start with my own
sort of personal story aboutaddiction, and that is I've
struggled with two addictions inmy life.
One is with alcohol and theother is workaholism.
And so as I rose the corporateladder, I worked more and more
(03:37):
hours.
I was also in an incrediblydifficult marriage with an
addict and had some of my owntrauma and a lot of things
invited me to cope with alcohol,and I did that for many years in
a functional way and thentowards the end in a very
(03:58):
dysfunctional way.
And so alcohol worked for meuntil it didn't.
And that is the story ofaddiction, which is whatever
your substances, whether that bedrugs or alcohol, it could be a
process addiction like gamblingor shopping, or pornography, a
(04:19):
wide range of things, you haveto do more and more of it to get
the same effect, right?
And it begins.
to cause more and moredysfunction in your life.
And the thing that was helpingme cope with the trauma that I
had experienced in my lifestopped working.
(04:40):
And I needed to work more hours,I needed to feel successful in
that way, to feel normal, tofeel like a normal human being.
And that's my story.
I got a lot of help, meaninginpatient treatment.
I went to therapy, and recoverywas not a straight line for me.
(05:01):
I had several relapses that weredevastating to me.
And what I know now is thatrelapse is often a part of
recovery.
But at the time, I felt like afailure.
And I was also trying to manageliving with another addict.
And so while I, on the surface,looked more functional, I was
(05:24):
holding our family together, Iwas also doing things that were
really unhelpful and enabling inmy relationship.
Don Drew (05:32):
You make a really great point here.
And that is that addictions,while we think of them as an
individual problem, they becomea family problem.
Shelley Goodell (05:40):
Absolutely.
If you've ever loved someone whowas addicted or been addicted
yourself it has tentacles.
It tentacles out to your family,to your community, to your work,
to your social life, and cancreate a lot of stress and a lot
of anxiety for those around you.
(06:01):
It can affect children in thehome.
It can affect grandparents.
Whomever loves the addict isimpacted.
David Lowry (06:09):
If you're in the second half of life and you've
come out of an intense worksituation, family situation with
kids, husband, wife, or thestress of life, maybe caring for
an aging parent.
What do you do?
You're still carrying aroundthis dysfunctional behavior?
Is there a way out?
Shelley Goodell (06:28):
Yeah I think it starts with some self
compassion.
I think there is a lot of shamearound those, what we call
addiction type behaviors orunhelpful behaviors.
And so there's a lot of timespent hiding.
And in reality, many, manypeople suffer and struggle with
(06:54):
unhelpful behaviors that repeatand repeat and repeat.
They're in a pattern that isunhelpful.
And so starting with some selfcompassion, understanding that
you're not alone, that manypeople experience these types of
things.
And then what I say is become anexpert on yourself.
(07:17):
Try to get curious about whythose patterns exist.
And can be helpful to find somehelp from those who've
experienced those same things.
People in recovery, whether thatbe a support group or a
therapist or a trusted mentorfor many people that looks like
(07:38):
a pastor or that looks like someother type of mentor that you
can talk to and express thosefeelings of perhaps shame.
Don Drew (07:49):
So, Shellely I'm going to go back to families and how
they respond to another familymember who has an addiction.
What kind of response is areasonable response and a
helpful one?
Shelley Goodell (08:02):
Yeah.
So I think you're asking aboutwhat can you do if you love
someone that you suspect has anaddiction or you know has an
addiction.
What can often happen is let'sjust say you're married and your
wife comes home and she's beendrinking excessively.
(08:25):
As a spouse or a partner, youcan feel really angry.
You can feel abandoned,rejected.
And so you have this sort oftransactional reactive response
to what's happening.
And that's pretty normal.
It's pretty typical to feel someanger or frustration about
what's happening.
(08:46):
But again, if you can pull backaway from that situation and
say, okay, I'm not alone.
Can I find self compassion?
And can I also understand that Ididn't cause this, that I'm not
the reason.
The person has an addiction?
(09:08):
This is hotly debated, right?
Is it nature or is it nurture?
Is it a disease or is it not adisease?
Is it based on trauma?
We could have thoseconversations and be here for
weeks.
But I think it's realizing thatyou're not alone, and also
understanding that the shame andguilt that you might feel, they
(09:31):
also feel shame and guilt.
Right?
They know that their behaviorsaren't helpful and are affecting
their family in, maybe in reallynegative ways.
And the one piece of advice, andI never give advice, is just to
know that you're not in control,that you cannot control another
(09:53):
person.
And, you can get into this realwar or battle with a spouse or a
kid, and it just creates moreanimosity and more problems in
the family.
I would always encouragetreatment, and what does
treatment look like?
(10:13):
For an addict of a substance,like alcohol or drugs, it can
look like inpatient treatment.
They may need detox.
And it can also look liketherapy for the person who is
addicted.
For yourself, as someone wholoves an addict, then I might
encourage you to seek self-helpgroups to support you through
(10:38):
how you navigate this situation.
So again, for a substance, itmight be Al Anon or another
support group like that.
And learning all you can aboutwhat you can do to protect
yourself.
Self care is really an overusedterm.
I like to say self protected.
(10:59):
What can you do to protect yourown sense of self?
Because what can happen is thatthe person who loves an addict
becomes addicted to the addict,right?
They're constantly swirling theaddict, and they can be consumed
with the behaviors of the personthat they love.
(11:22):
And it can be really damaging tonot only their relationship, but
their self worth.
And so asking a question like,what would my life be like if I
weren't so consumed with thisperson's behaviors?
Just getting curious about thatand then educating yourself and
(11:45):
setting boundaries.
And there are a lot of greatresources, and I'm sure we'll
talk about a few of the onesthat I like, but support groups
can really help you learn hey,what, how did you set those
boundaries in a loving and kindway that protected you?
David Lowry (12:04):
I'm imagining that some people in the second half
of life are saying, I dealt withall of this for many, many
years.
Do I want to keep on doing this?
I'm at a place in my life whereI've got to decide how much do I
want to spend in this situation.
I love the person, but I'm notsure what I should do.
Should I cut my losses and moveforward?
(12:27):
I know there's no hard and fastguidelines, but anything you
might offer would be welcome.
Shelley Goodell (12:32):
Yeah, it's a great, great question.
And I'm glad you said that,David.
It's a very personal decision.
But I think there is help outthere for people who are
struggling with that.
So for instance, if you're in arelationship that is violent in
some way, whether physicallyviolent or verbally violent, I
(12:54):
would say seek help immediatelyto help you safely make those
decisions.
And if you're in a situation,for instance, you love someone
who has a gambling addiction andyou've gone into massive amounts
of debt, then understanding, howdo I protect myself while I'm
making the decision about isthis a relationship that I want
(13:19):
to continue?
And it's not an easy decision tomake because if you've been in a
relationship for decades, andlet's say an addiction has
gotten worse and ordebilitating, that you're
probably grieving some of whatyour relationship was.
And how it has changed over theyears, and you're also debating
(13:43):
and circling around, Can it bethe way it was?
Can it be better with some help?
Can, with some treatment, can wehave a more fulfilling loving
relationship than we've ever hadbefore?
So I think getting some help tonavigate those things, because
when you're in the middle ofacute addiction if we're talking
(14:08):
about a severe addiction,nobody's clear, right?
Everybody is just reacting andto what's happening in the
moment.
And it can feel overwhelming.
And so during those moments,maybe it's not the best time to
make a snap decision about thehealth or the longevity of your
(14:31):
relationship.
Don Drew (14:32):
Shellely, a lot of times when I hear anybody
talking about addictions, theterm enabler comes up.
What does that look like?
Shelley Goodell (14:42):
Yeah, so it's the whole, when am I helping
versus when am I enabling?
And what I would say if you arehelping under the guise that
continues to further theaddiction then that's not
helping, that's enabling.
(15:02):
For instance, if you're agrandparent raising a child with
an addiction, and you are givingthem money, and they are using
that money to further theiraddiction that is enabling
behaviors.
If you are taking them to thespots where they have access to
(15:23):
their addiction, that isenabling behavior.
If you are taking a spouse totreatment, to me, that is
helpful behaviors, right?
Because what you're saying is,I'm willing to help you get the
help you need, and I'm notenabling the behaviors that
further the addiction.
(15:45):
And so a boundary is what willyou do, not what will the other
person do, right?
So it's what will you do if thishappens?
How will you respond if thishappens?
And so that might mean that yourpartner, you have a discussion
and say, I no longer feelcomfortable with us sharing
(16:07):
money because you're using moneyfrom the family account to
further your addiction.
It might mean limiting another'saccess in the family to your
credit cards or to your car.
If there's someone who isaddicted to drugs and alcohol
and they're driving your car,then you might set a boundary
(16:31):
that I'm no longer willing toallow you to use my car.
Don Drew (16:34):
And of course, boundaries get challenged.
Shelley Goodell (16:36):
Yeah, an addict does not the worst word they can
hear is no.
That is not a fun word for anaddict to hear.
And you're likely to get metwith lots of resistance and
perhaps manipulation.
And even big, big emotions andperhaps big behaviors.
(16:57):
So just understanding that andhaving a response ready that
keeps you safe and also holdsyour boundaries and keeps your
boundaries intact.
And that's why I think havingpeople who have done this
before, who are in recovery, orwho love people in recovery,
(17:19):
having them help you navigatethis can make all the difference
in the world.
David Lowry (17:23):
I think that there's probably a lot of shame
in identifying oneself as havinga problem, maybe being an
addict.
You go to these meetings, youthink, I'm not as bad as those
guys, when obviously you are.
There's always someone who'staken it further than maybe you
have.
What are some things we might doto put a perspective on
(17:43):
something that's holding usback?
Shelley Goodell (17:45):
So, I love that.
And I'll just share a personalstory.
The very first time I went to aself help group for myself, and
then I later went because I lovesomeone who is an addict.
The very first time I went, Ithought, I'm nothing like any of
these people.
I am a person who has built areally successful career.
(18:09):
I know how to navigate thissituation.
And I just kept going back.
I kept going back.
Something would invite me toreturn.
And what I ended up feeling isthat I was exactly like those
people because we're all justhumans trying to figure it out.
And we all have problems.
(18:31):
And when we have those problems,we think we are alone.
And addiction grows in the dark.
And if you can shine a littlelight towards another person and
say, Hey, I haven't been exactlywhere you've been, but I felt
those same feelings.
I felt alone and I felt shame.
And I felt like, why do I keepdoing this behavior that is so
(18:54):
destructive?
I felt that exact same feeling.
And you know what?
I'm better.
It gives the other person hope.
And hope is the thing that canreally change behavior.
Don Drew (19:09):
Yeah, sometimes I think when we look at people in
our families or people that welove or care about, we watch
them enact behaviors that on thesurface actually getting them
some good stuff.
For instance, as a workaholic.
Being a workaholic quite often,you get a lot of good stuff.
You get promotions, you getmoney and all that sort of
thing.
The cost comes in many otherways.
(19:30):
Not necessarily, at least not inthe short term, in the
workplace.
It's hard, I think, to always beable to tell when an addiction
is an addiction, when it'shurting them.
So, I can see an older familymember looking at a child or
grandchild and questioningwhether or not they actually are
an addict.
Shelley Goodell (19:50):
Certainly there's a textbook DSM 5 TR
definition of what addiction is.
That's a clinical definition.
What I might suggest orencourage is as a layperson, is
what problems are surfacingbecause of this perceived
(20:12):
addiction?
So I'll give you an example ofthat.
If you have a young person inyour life, again, if let's just
use the example of a grandparentraising a teenager but let's say
they're using technology,they're on their phone for many,
many hours a day.
They're not going to school.
(20:33):
They're skipping classes so theycan be on their phone.
They're not having socialrelationships.
They're not in their family.
They're a part of their family,but they're not in it because
they're constantly on theirphone.
We know it's not helpful.
And we know it's hurting theindividual.
And we know that it's a patternthat they cannot stop on their
(20:56):
own.
And if you cannot stop on yourown, and it's causing problems,
I think that's a marker to seekhelp.
David Lowry (21:05):
Shelly, what is the hardest part of getting rid of
an addiction in your opinion?
Shelley Goodell (21:11):
Oh, that is a tough question.
The hardest part.
I think I'll just tell you myown personal experience.
And that is I did not understandfor a long time how the symptom
of drinking and workaholism wasserving a purpose.
(21:32):
And that was to numb me out fromhaving to really look at myself
and my trauma.
In my life, trauma hasn't goneaway.
Like, I didn't have thismiraculous cure that made my
trauma just disappear.
I didn't have that perfecttherapy session but I have a
(21:54):
different relationship with mytrauma at 52 than I had at 47,
at 40, at 35.
The hardest part, for me, was Delayering why I used alcohol and
de layering why I coped byworking myself to death all the
(22:18):
time and how it related to how Isought worth, right?
How I hustled, as Brene Brownwould say, for my self worth.
David Lowry (22:32):
For people in the second half of life who may have
come from that hustle cultureand somewhat miss it.
What could we replace that with?
Shelley Goodell (22:43):
Yeah, I think my second part of life was
trying to understand what Ienjoyed, what was interesting to
me.
I am a people pleaser and aperfectionist.
That was part of my workaholismand also hustling for my worth.
(23:03):
And what that meant was that Icould be directed, right?
Hey, Shelly, look here, do this.
And if I got praise for that, ifpeople were thinking about
promoting me, if I got to adifferent level, if I got a seat
at the table, man, that was justsuper motivating for me.
(23:25):
I could only do that for so longbefore I needed to cope with
alcohol because you burn out.
It's a vicious, vicious cycle.
In the second half of life, Ithink it's important to really
look at what gives me personalfulfillment?
Is it being out in nature?
(23:46):
Is it doing yoga?
Is it going fishing?
Is it mentoring others?
Don Drew (23:52):
Shellely, in families, as we've mentioned, there's
always a lot of trauma thatcomes with addicted family
members and so on.
We've talked about some of thefeelings we have, guilt, fear,
shame.
People who are listening to thispodcast are seeking more peace
in their lives.
What are some suggestions youmight have that could be really
(24:13):
helpful to them at this point ifthey have a family member that
has an addiction?
Shelley Goodell (24:18):
Yeah, I am a believer that we heal in
community.
So, having community support canbe a game changer for a person
who is suffering because theypersonally have a pattern of
unhelpful behaviors, or theylove a person who is struggling.
So, being in community, meaningseeking out help, whether that
(24:43):
be self help group, therapy, orother people in your life that
you love and respect and openingup to them about what you are
experiencing.
Shame can keep us in the dark.
Don Drew (24:57):
Are there any books or resources you would specifically
like to suggest?
Shelley Goodell (25:02):
Yeah, I'll just tell you a few of the books that
I have found really helpful.
One, when you're talking aboutenabling behaviors, rescuing
behaviors it's an old book, butit's a goodie.
And that is Codependent No Moreby Melody Beatty.
That is an excellent book fortrying to understand the origins
(25:26):
of why you might enable orrescue and really practical
advice on how you get out ofthose patterns.
The other is The Power of TED,which is by David.
Emerald, and it is also aboutrelationships.
It's a very simple book to read.
You can read it in an afternoon,but it talks a lot about the
(25:50):
drama triangle.
So, the victim, the rescuer, thepersecutor, and how those play
out in relationships.
I'm a big fan of Gabor Maté,who, if you've read anything
from him, he would say that alot of addiction comes from
trauma, if not all addiction.
(26:11):
And he has a book called In theRealm of Hungry Ghosts, which
was a powerful book in my life.
And then there is a book calledA Beautiful Boy: A Father's
Journey Through His Son'sAddiction by David Sheff, which
is also a powerful book abouthow do you love a kiddo who is
(26:35):
going through addiction.
I think The Book of AlcoholicsAnonymous is a classic book that
can help you understand the mindof someone suffering from
alcohol addiction or drugaddiction.
It's obviously, focused onalcohol, but you can apply it to
any other addiction.
There is a book called Addict inthe Family by Beverly Conyers,
(27:00):
which is also a really goodbook.
There's The Laundry List by TonyA with Dan F.
It really provides insight andmeaning to the adult child of an
addict.
And all the books that I'veshared have various beliefs.
They're on the spectrum ofbelief systems about addiction.
(27:20):
But I have found pieces in everyone that have been really
helpful to me.
David Lowry (27:25):
Well, these all sound very helpful and we're so
grateful for all of the timeyou've given us today and for
all these fine recommendationsfor books.
We hope our listeners found thisprogram helpful.
We've been talking to SherryGoodell, who's a therapy
candidate starting her therapysupervision in the second half
of life Congratulations to youon making the big change.
(27:48):
Congratulations to you forfacing those problems you
mentioned earlier.
And congratulations for helpingso many people.
I know the future is so verybright.
We look forward to seeing youagain sometime.
Shelley Goodell (28:00):
Thank you so much.
I've really enjoyed it.
If you've ever loved someone who was addicted
or been addicted yourself, ithas tentacles.
It tentacles out to your family,to your community, to your work,
to your social life, and cancreate a lot of stress and a lot
of anxiety for those around you.
It can affect children in thehome.
(00:21):
It can affect grandparents.
Whomever loves the addict isimpacted.
David Lowry (00:27):
And that was Shelly Goodell, a therapy candidate
starting her therapy supervisionin the second half of life.
I'm David Lowry And you'relistening to Peaceful Life
Radio, where we navigate thesecond half of life with
purpose, wisdom, and grace.
And with me today is my goodfriend, Don Drew.
Don, why don't you introduce ourguest today?
Don Drew (00:47):
I would absolutely love to introduce our guest, but
let me start off by saying whatwe're talking about today.
Okay.
It's a serious topic.
We're going to be talking aboutaddiction.
Specifically we're going to betalking about addictions in
families.
And we want to get around todiscussing what a person's role
might be in helping this familymember or in some cases not.
(01:07):
What are our responsibilities?
In order to do that, we've gotwith us today, Shellely Goodell.
She's got a master's incounseling from Southwestern
College in New Mexico, which isa very highly regarded program
promoting mind, body, and spiritapproach to therapy.
And she's also done aninternship with the Sky Center
in New Mexico, which alsoprovides therapy to families
(01:28):
with suicidal youth, addictionconcerns, eating disorders, and
so on.
But before I say anything else,let me turn over to Shellely and
say, Shellely, welcome.
And we're glad you're here.
And tell us anything else youwant us to know about yourself.
Shelley Goodell (01:42):
Thank you for having me.
I'm so glad to be here.
Yes.
So I ended up in counseling inthe second half of life which I
know is a popular theme on thispodcast, but I actually started
my career in human resources andleadership roles for about 25
(02:04):
years where I led employeerelations groups and recruiting
groups and organizationaldevelopment groups, training
leaders on conflict resolution,inclusion and diversity and a
host of other things.
Then COVID hit and I had beenthinking about what I wanted to
(02:25):
do differently in the secondhalf of life.
And counseling has always beenattractive to me.
And a lot of the reason for thatis my own mental health issues.
And so I wanted to do a deepdive exploration.
I'd been in therapy for manyyears and wanted to see if I had
(02:46):
anything to offer others that ifI could help in any way.
So I now work in communityhealth, mental health.
And I am a candidate, atherapist candidate, meaning I'm
under supervision.
So, I haven't been a newbie inanything for a really long time.
But I'm a newbie to therapy andI'm really excited about that.
David Lowry (03:09):
Welcome to the second half of life.
Shelley Goodell (03:11):
Thank you.
Don Drew (03:11):
So, Shellely, what do you want to tell us about
addictions?
Shelley Goodell (03:14):
Yeah, so I think I'll start with my own
sort of personal story aboutaddiction, and that is I've
struggled with two addictions inmy life.
One is with alcohol and theother is workaholism.
And so as I rose the corporateladder, I worked more and more
(03:37):
hours.
I was also in an incrediblydifficult marriage with an
addict and had some of my owntrauma and a lot of things
invited me to cope with alcohol,and I did that for many years in
a functional way and thentowards the end in a very
(03:58):
dysfunctional way.
And so alcohol worked for meuntil it didn't.
And that is the story ofaddiction, which is whatever
your substances, whether that bedrugs or alcohol, it could be a
process addiction like gamblingor shopping, or pornography, a
(04:19):
wide range of things, you haveto do more and more of it to get
the same effect, right?
And it begins.
to cause more and moredysfunction in your life.
And the thing that was helpingme cope with the trauma that I
had experienced in my lifestopped working.
(04:40):
And I needed to work more hours,I needed to feel successful in
that way, to feel normal, tofeel like a normal human being.
And that's my story.
I got a lot of help, meaninginpatient treatment.
I went to therapy, and recoverywas not a straight line for me.
(05:01):
I had several relapses that weredevastating to me.
And what I know now is thatrelapse is often a part of
recovery.
But at the time, I felt like afailure.
And I was also trying to manageliving with another addict.
And so while I, on the surface,looked more functional, I was
(05:24):
holding our family together, Iwas also doing things that were
really unhelpful and enabling inmy relationship.
Don Drew (05:32):
You make a really great point here.
And that is that addictions,while we think of them as an
individual problem, they becomea family problem.
Shelley Goodell (05:40):
Absolutely.
If you've ever loved someone whowas addicted or been addicted
yourself it has tentacles.
It tentacles out to your family,to your community, to your work,
to your social life, and cancreate a lot of stress and a lot
of anxiety for those around you.
(06:01):
It can affect children in thehome.
It can affect grandparents.
Whomever loves the addict isimpacted.
David Lowry (06:09):
If you're in the second half of life and you've
come out of an intense worksituation, family situation with
kids, husband, wife, or thestress of life, maybe caring for
an aging parent.
What do you do?
You're still carrying aroundthis dysfunctional behavior?
Is there a way out?
Shelley Goodell (06:28):
Yeah I think it starts with some self
compassion.
I think there is a lot of shamearound those, what we call
addiction type behaviors orunhelpful behaviors.
And so there's a lot of timespent hiding.
And in reality, many, manypeople suffer and struggle with
(06:54):
unhelpful behaviors that repeatand repeat and repeat.
They're in a pattern that isunhelpful.
And so starting with some selfcompassion, understanding that
you're not alone, that manypeople experience these types of
things.
And then what I say is become anexpert on yourself.
(07:17):
Try to get curious about whythose patterns exist.
And can be helpful to find somehelp from those who've
experienced those same things.
People in recovery, whether thatbe a support group or a
therapist or a trusted mentorfor many people that looks like
(07:38):
a pastor or that looks like someother type of mentor that you
can talk to and express thosefeelings of perhaps shame.
Don Drew (07:49):
So, Shellely I'm going to go back to families and how
they respond to another familymember who has an addiction.
What kind of response is areasonable response and a
helpful one?
Shelley Goodell (08:02):
Yeah.
So I think you're asking aboutwhat can you do if you love
someone that you suspect has anaddiction or you know has an
addiction.
What can often happen is let'sjust say you're married and your
wife comes home and she's beendrinking excessively.
(08:25):
As a spouse or a partner, youcan feel really angry.
You can feel abandoned,rejected.
And so you have this sort oftransactional reactive response
to what's happening.
And that's pretty normal.
It's pretty typical to feel someanger or frustration about
what's happening.
(08:46):
But again, if you can pull backaway from that situation and
say, okay, I'm not alone.
Can I find self compassion?
And can I also understand that Ididn't cause this, that I'm not
the reason.
The person has an addiction?
(09:08):
This is hotly debated, right?
Is it nature or is it nurture?
Is it a disease or is it not adisease?
Is it based on trauma?
We could have thoseconversations and be here for
weeks.
But I think it's realizing thatyou're not alone, and also
understanding that the shame andguilt that you might feel, they
(09:31):
also feel shame and guilt.
Right?
They know that their behaviorsaren't helpful and are affecting
their family in, maybe in reallynegative ways.
And the one piece of advice, andI never give advice, is just to
know that you're not in control,that you cannot control another
(09:53):
person.
And, you can get into this realwar or battle with a spouse or a
kid, and it just creates moreanimosity and more problems in
the family.
I would always encouragetreatment, and what does
treatment look like?
(10:13):
For an addict of a substance,like alcohol or drugs, it can
look like inpatient treatment.
They may need detox.
And it can also look liketherapy for the person who is
addicted.
For yourself, as someone wholoves an addict, then I might
encourage you to seek self-helpgroups to support you through
(10:38):
how you navigate this situation.
So again, for a substance, itmight be Al Anon or another
support group like that.
And learning all you can aboutwhat you can do to protect
yourself.
Self care is really an overusedterm.
I like to say self protected.
(10:59):
What can you do to protect yourown sense of self?
Because what can happen is thatthe person who loves an addict
becomes addicted to the addict,right?
They're constantly swirling theaddict, and they can be consumed
with the behaviors of the personthat they love.
(11:22):
And it can be really damaging tonot only their relationship, but
their self worth.
And so asking a question like,what would my life be like if I
weren't so consumed with thisperson's behaviors?
Just getting curious about thatand then educating yourself and
(11:45):
setting boundaries.
And there are a lot of greatresources, and I'm sure we'll
talk about a few of the onesthat I like, but support groups
can really help you learn hey,what, how did you set those
boundaries in a loving and kindway that protected you?
David Lowry (12:04):
I'm imagining that some people in the second half
of life are saying, I dealt withall of this for many, many
years.
Do I want to keep on doing this?
I'm at a place in my life whereI've got to decide how much do I
want to spend in this situation.
I love the person, but I'm notsure what I should do.
Should I cut my losses and moveforward?
(12:27):
I know there's no hard and fastguidelines, but anything you
might offer would be welcome.
Shelley Goodell (12:32):
Yeah, it's a great, great question.
And I'm glad you said that,David.
It's a very personal decision.
But I think there is help outthere for people who are
struggling with that.
So for instance, if you're in arelationship that is violent in
some way, whether physicallyviolent or verbally violent, I
(12:54):
would say seek help immediatelyto help you safely make those
decisions.
And if you're in a situation,for instance, you love someone
who has a gambling addiction andyou've gone into massive amounts
of debt, then understanding, howdo I protect myself while I'm
making the decision about isthis a relationship that I want
(13:19):
to continue?
And it's not an easy decision tomake because if you've been in a
relationship for decades, andlet's say an addiction has
gotten worse and ordebilitating, that you're
probably grieving some of whatyour relationship was.
And how it has changed over theyears, and you're also debating
(13:43):
and circling around, Can it bethe way it was?
Can it be better with some help?
Can, with some treatment, can wehave a more fulfilling loving
relationship than we've ever hadbefore?
So I think getting some help tonavigate those things, because
when you're in the middle ofacute addiction if we're talking
(14:08):
about a severe addiction,nobody's clear, right?
Everybody is just reacting andto what's happening in the
moment.
And it can feel overwhelming.
And so during those moments,maybe it's not the best time to
make a snap decision about thehealth or the longevity of your
(14:31):
relationship.
Don Drew (14:32):
Shellely, a lot of times when I hear anybody
talking about addictions, theterm enabler comes up.
What does that look like?
Shelley Goodell (14:42):
Yeah, so it's the whole, when am I helping
versus when am I enabling?
And what I would say if you arehelping under the guise that
continues to further theaddiction then that's not
helping, that's enabling.
(15:02):
For instance, if you're agrandparent raising a child with
an addiction, and you are givingthem money, and they are using
that money to further theiraddiction that is enabling
behaviors.
If you are taking them to thespots where they have access to
(15:23):
their addiction, that isenabling behavior.
If you are taking a spouse totreatment, to me, that is
helpful behaviors, right?
Because what you're saying is,I'm willing to help you get the
help you need, and I'm notenabling the behaviors that
further the addiction.
(15:45):
And so a boundary is what willyou do, not what will the other
person do, right?
So it's what will you do if thishappens?
How will you respond if thishappens?
And so that might mean that yourpartner, you have a discussion
and say, I no longer feelcomfortable with us sharing
(16:07):
money because you're using moneyfrom the family account to
further your addiction.
It might mean limiting another'saccess in the family to your
credit cards or to your car.
If there's someone who isaddicted to drugs and alcohol
and they're driving your car,then you might set a boundary
(16:31):
that I'm no longer willing toallow you to use my car.
Don Drew (16:34):
And of course, boundaries get challenged.
Shelley Goodell (16:36):
Yeah, an addict does not the worst word they can
hear is no.
That is not a fun word for anaddict to hear.
And you're likely to get metwith lots of resistance and
perhaps manipulation.
And even big, big emotions andperhaps big behaviors.
(16:57):
So just understanding that andhaving a response ready that
keeps you safe and also holdsyour boundaries and keeps your
boundaries intact.
And that's why I think havingpeople who have done this
before, who are in recovery, orwho love people in recovery,
(17:19):
having them help you navigatethis can make all the difference
in the world.
David Lowry (17:23):
I think that there's probably a lot of shame
in identifying oneself as havinga problem, maybe being an
addict.
You go to these meetings, youthink, I'm not as bad as those
guys, when obviously you are.
There's always someone who'staken it further than maybe you
have.
What are some things we might doto put a perspective on
(17:43):
something that's holding usback?
Shelley Goodell (17:45):
So, I love that.
And I'll just share a personalstory.
The very first time I went to aself help group for myself, and
then I later went because I lovesomeone who is an addict.
The very first time I went, Ithought, I'm nothing like any of
these people.
I am a person who has built areally successful career.
(18:09):
I know how to navigate thissituation.
And I just kept going back.
I kept going back.
Something would invite me toreturn.
And what I ended up feeling isthat I was exactly like those
people because we're all justhumans trying to figure it out.
And we all have problems.
(18:31):
And when we have those problems,we think we are alone.
And addiction grows in the dark.
And if you can shine a littlelight towards another person and
say, Hey, I haven't been exactlywhere you've been, but I felt
those same feelings.
I felt alone and I felt shame.
And I felt like, why do I keepdoing this behavior that is so
(18:54):
destructive?
I felt that exact same feeling.
And you know what?
I'm better.
It gives the other person hope.
And hope is the thing that canreally change behavior.
Don Drew (19:09):
Yeah, sometimes I think when we look at people in
our families or people that welove or care about, we watch
them enact behaviors that on thesurface actually getting them
some good stuff.
For instance, as a workaholic.
Being a workaholic quite often,you get a lot of good stuff.
You get promotions, you getmoney and all that sort of
thing.
The cost comes in many otherways.
(19:30):
Not necessarily, at least not inthe short term, in the
workplace.
It's hard, I think, to always beable to tell when an addiction
is an addiction, when it'shurting them.
So, I can see an older familymember looking at a child or
grandchild and questioningwhether or not they actually are
an addict.
Shelley Goodell (19:50):
Certainly there's a textbook DSM 5 TR
definition of what addiction is.
That's a clinical definition.
What I might suggest orencourage is as a layperson, is
what problems are surfacingbecause of this perceived
(20:12):
addiction?
So I'll give you an example ofthat.
If you have a young person inyour life, again, if let's just
use the example of a grandparentraising a teenager but let's say
they're using technology,they're on their phone for many,
many hours a day.
They're not going to school.
(20:33):
They're skipping classes so theycan be on their phone.
They're not having socialrelationships.
They're not in their family.
They're a part of their family,but they're not in it because
they're constantly on theirphone.
We know it's not helpful.
And we know it's hurting theindividual.
And we know that it's a patternthat they cannot stop on their
(20:56):
own.
And if you cannot stop on yourown, and it's causing problems,
I think that's a marker to seekhelp.
David Lowry (21:05):
Shelly, what is the hardest part of getting rid of
an addiction in your opinion?
Shelley Goodell (21:11):
Oh, that is a tough question.
The hardest part.
I think I'll just tell you myown personal experience.
And that is I did not understandfor a long time how the symptom
of drinking and workaholism wasserving a purpose.
(21:32):
And that was to numb me out fromhaving to really look at myself
and my trauma.
In my life, trauma hasn't goneaway.
Like, I didn't have thismiraculous cure that made my
trauma just disappear.
I didn't have that perfecttherapy session but I have a
(21:54):
different relationship with mytrauma at 52 than I had at 47,
at 40, at 35.
The hardest part, for me, was Delayering why I used alcohol and
de layering why I coped byworking myself to death all the
(22:18):
time and how it related to how Isought worth, right?
How I hustled, as Brene Brownwould say, for my self worth.
David Lowry (22:32):
For people in the second half of life who may have
come from that hustle cultureand somewhat miss it.
What could we replace that with?
Shelley Goodell (22:43):
Yeah, I think my second part of life was
trying to understand what Ienjoyed, what was interesting to
me.
I am a people pleaser and aperfectionist.
That was part of my workaholismand also hustling for my worth.
(23:03):
And what that meant was that Icould be directed, right?
Hey, Shelly, look here, do this.
And if I got praise for that, ifpeople were thinking about
promoting me, if I got to adifferent level, if I got a seat
at the table, man, that was justsuper motivating for me.
(23:25):
I could only do that for so longbefore I needed to cope with
alcohol because you burn out.
It's a vicious, vicious cycle.
In the second half of life, Ithink it's important to really
look at what gives me personalfulfillment?
Is it being out in nature?
(23:46):
Is it doing yoga?
Is it going fishing?
Is it mentoring others?
Don Drew (23:52):
Shellely, in families, as we've mentioned, there's
always a lot of trauma thatcomes with addicted family
members and so on.
We've talked about some of thefeelings we have, guilt, fear,
shame.
People who are listening to thispodcast are seeking more peace
in their lives.
What are some suggestions youmight have that could be really
(24:13):
helpful to them at this point ifthey have a family member that
has an addiction?
Shelley Goodell (24:18):
Yeah, I am a believer that we heal in
community.
So, having community support canbe a game changer for a person
who is suffering because theypersonally have a pattern of
unhelpful behaviors, or theylove a person who is struggling.
So, being in community, meaningseeking out help, whether that
(24:43):
be self help group, therapy, orother people in your life that
you love and respect and openingup to them about what you are
experiencing.
Shame can keep us in the dark.
Don Drew (24:57):
Are there any books or resources you would specifically
like to suggest?
Shelley Goodell (25:02):
Yeah, I'll just tell you a few of the books that
I have found really helpful.
One, when you're talking aboutenabling behaviors, rescuing
behaviors it's an old book, butit's a goodie.
And that is Codependent No Moreby Melody Beatty.
That is an excellent book fortrying to understand the origins
(25:26):
of why you might enable orrescue and really practical
advice on how you get out ofthose patterns.
The other is The Power of TED,which is by David.
Emerald, and it is also aboutrelationships.
It's a very simple book to read.
You can read it in an afternoon,but it talks a lot about the
(25:50):
drama triangle.
So, the victim, the rescuer, thepersecutor, and how those play
out in relationships.
I'm a big fan of Gabor Maté,who, if you've read anything
from him, he would say that alot of addiction comes from
trauma, if not all addiction.
(26:11):
And he has a book called In theRealm of Hungry Ghosts, which
was a powerful book in my life.
And then there is a book calledA Beautiful Boy: A Father's
Journey Through His Son'sAddiction by David Sheff, which
is also a powerful book abouthow do you love a kiddo who is
(26:35):
going through addiction.
I think The Book of AlcoholicsAnonymous is a classic book that
can help you understand the mindof someone suffering from
alcohol addiction or drugaddiction.
It's obviously, focused onalcohol, but you can apply it to
any other addiction.
There is a book called Addict inthe Family by Beverly Conyers,
(27:00):
which is also a really goodbook.
There's The Laundry List by TonyA with Dan F.
It really provides insight andmeaning to the adult child of an
addict.
And all the books that I'veshared have various beliefs.
They're on the spectrum ofbelief systems about addiction.
(27:20):
But I have found pieces in everyone that have been really
helpful to me.
David Lowry (27:25):
Well, these all sound very helpful and we're so
grateful for all of the timeyou've given us today and for
all these fine recommendationsfor books.
We hope our listeners found thisprogram helpful.
We've been talking to SherryGoodell, who's a therapy
candidate starting her therapysupervision in the second half
of life Congratulations to youon making the big change.
(27:48):
Congratulations to you forfacing those problems you
mentioned earlier.
And congratulations for helpingso many people.
I know the future is so verybright.
We look forward to seeing youagain sometime.
Shelley Goodell (28:00):
Thank you so much.
I've really enjoyed it.
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