March 9, 2025 • 29 mins
The Wisdom Years: A Guide to Intentional Aging
In this episode of Peaceful Life Radio, hosts David Lowry and Don Drew welcome Dr. Barbara Boyd, a retired professor and spiritual advisor who shares insights from her book 'The Wisdom Years: A Guide to Intentional Aging.' Barbara recounts her journey of self-discovery and personal growth at the age of 70, including her four pilgrimages to find deeper meaning beyond the initial joy of retirement activities. She discusses the importance of adapting to physical and mental changes in later years, the distinction between male and female experiences of retirement, and the value of giving away wisdom accumulated over a lifetime. Barbara also reflects on finding new sources of spirituality outside traditional religious institutions and emphasizes the significance of saying 'yes' to life’s opportunities as we age.
00:00 Introduction and Greetings
00:13 Introducing Dr. Barbara Boyd
01:21 The Motivation Behind 'The Wisdom Years'
02:44 Exploring the Concept of Intentional Aging
03:43 The Pilgrimage Year
04:50 Internal Growth and Soul Building
06:22 Challenges of Transitioning to Retirement
10:25 The Importance of Sharing Wisdom
13:18 Adapting to Physical and Mental Changes
14:54 The Cosmic Yes and Taking Risks
17:00 Reevaluating Religious Connections
20:47 The Liberating Experience of Anonymity
25:20 Reflections on Retirement and Future Plans
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
David Lowry (00:00):
Hello, everyone.
(00:00):
This is David Lowry and my goodfriend, Don Drew, for Peaceful
Life Radio, your place on theinternet where we focus on
intentional aging.
Hi, Don.
"How you doing?" I'm doinggreat, David.
How are you doing today?
I'm excited about our guest It'sa longtime friend of mine, 15
years, I believe.
Dr.
Barbara Boyd is a retiredprofessor from the University of
(00:23):
Oklahoma, where she was thedirector of outreach and a
faculty member in the religiousstudies program.
Barbara, I think of you as aspiritual advisor, a wise
person, a woman who has thoughtdeeply about life and the
meaning of life.
You've been a pastor, you haveextensive religious training,
(00:44):
not just Christian, but all ofthem.
And one of the reasons that weinvited Barbara on our program
was that she's written a bookcalled the Wisdom Years, a Guide
to Intentional Aging.
I think my wife had to getapproval from Dr.
Boyd before she could marry me.
And I'm glad that Barbara saidyes.
Barbara, welcome to our programtoday.
(01:05):
We're so glad to have you.
Barbara S Boyd 2 (01:07):
Thank you so much.
And you had to have Tom'sapproval too, because Cary was
his special person.
David Lowry (01:15):
I know, Tom wasn't gonna let just anybody marry
Cary.
Barbara let's begin our program.
How did you come to write thisbook?
What was your motivation?
Barbara S Boyd 2 (01:26):
I turned 70 years old, that's what did it.
I left the university when I wasage 67 and Tom and I retired and
moved to Santa Fe, New Mexicoand set up housekeeping and
began backpacking and hiking anddoing all those things you know,
(01:46):
your bucket list.
Went to New Zealand and Alaska.
Did a lot of travels.
But then I was about to turn 70and I suddenly realized I was
bored.
DaveDon (01:58):
Yeah, Barbara, I want to read this one paragraph from
the start of your book.
It says, After a year of play,which is what you're talking
about, I quickly became mired inboredom and began to explore a
variety of activities andexperiences to help define and
claim my senior years asvaluable years.
But none of those choices I madeinspired me or urged me to move
(02:18):
into my own sense of calling inthe wisdom years, though I was
unfettered, I love this, I wasungrounded.
David Lowry (02:24):
I think that describes a lot of people.
Barbara S Boyd 2 (02:27):
Yes.
In other words, beingunfettered, I could do whatever
I wanted, go wherever I wantedand make any choice I was
capable of making within myphysical world and budget.
I felt utterly free.
But what I learned, of course,is that kind of freedom can lead
(02:49):
to boredom if there's not depthgiven to it.
And so like most retirees, Iplunged into doing all the fun
stuff on my bucket list.
And then one day it just came upshort.
It's like you can do thisforever.
It's like being in a candystore.
Eventually you eat enough candythat you're sick of the sugar.
(03:11):
They're sick of the sweets.
It's not fun anymore.
And that's what had happened tome.
Tom and I had adventures and Iwas ready for depth again in my
life.
And the play was good.
I needed it.
It restored me.
It refreshed me.
Gave me a new sense of what mybody would do at that age.
(03:33):
But, there wasn't a lot of depthto it.
It was all play.
So, I was about to turn 70 andthat sounded ominous to me.
I said to Tom, I am going tocreate a pilgrimage year for
myself, and I'm not going toinvite you on all of my
pilgrimages.
I will invite you on one ofthem, but I'm going to do four.
(03:56):
And, I'm headed out.
I'm going to ask friends onsome, go by myself on some, and
take you on one.
Can you handle that?
And Tom was a delightfullysupportive spouse.
And he said, sure, honey, go forit, you know, have fun.
And that's what the book isabout.
I took four pilgrimages and cameback at the end of that year.
(04:19):
I turned 70 in England walkingthe Cotswolds.
At the end of the year, I cameback and wrote the book about my
lessons and my learning and lifehas been very different since I
wrote this book.
DaveDon (04:33):
One of the things I noticed about in your book is
that you talk about each of thepilgrimages describing the
pilgrimage, but then that'sfollowed by a chapter about
what's happening to youinternally.
We can see you going throughthis growth throughout the year
and all the lessons that youlearn.
Barbara S Boyd 2 (04:50):
Yes.
That model dropped into my headwhen I started trying to
organize the book because Ididn't want to write a
travelogue.
That's not interesting.
Because anyone can do what Idid.
Thousands and thousands ofpeople every year take
pilgrimages.
So I wasn't interested inrecording that.
(05:10):
It dawned on me that the realjourney had taken place inside.
What had I learned?
How had I grown?
Where had I struggled?
What had I failed?
What had I excelled at?
What gave me a new sense ofpurpose and meaning?
What challenged me?
What was my unfinished business?
What was left over?
What was completed?
(05:32):
All of those kinds ofexistential questions that
reside deep in our souls.
I've come up with a word that Ididn't use in the book.
I wish I had known this phrase.
But I've realized recently thatI've been on a journey.
I'm 78 now, and this happened atage 70.
(05:52):
So, in these eight years, myseventies have been a journey of
soul building.
Isn't that a gorgeous term?
David Lowry (06:00):
Soul building.
Yes.
Yes.
I love that term.
Barbara, when you're going atthe speed of life at a very
prestigious university meetingwith thousands of students,
going to meetings and doing allthe things.
It's a very rigorous life.
You don't have all this time toprocess what's happened to me
those 70 years!
DaveDon (06:22):
Yeah, she talks about coming out of the institutional
life, a phrase used by FatherRichard Rohr, a favorite author
of mine, and moving into whatshe calls an intentional life,
which is what I think you'retalking about here, Barbara.
Don't you find thatintentionality is.
somewhat hard to grasp at first.
Barbara S Boyd 2 (06:37):
it's very difficult to grasp.
That's a terrific commentbecause it doesn't just drop in.
It's not automatic.
It doesn't even occur to one fora while right after you've
retired.
I was tired of the institutionalworld as any other person at
retirement.
I was ready to be done withthat.
Suddenly, I'm on my own where Ican do whatever I want to do,
(07:01):
which I did.
But trying to locate one's selfin a brand new stage of life,
that's hard work.
In fact, I think I likened it tobeing a teenager at puberty.
I think the same thing appliesbetween career and the freedom
(07:21):
years-- that become the wisdomyears, if you intend them.
Now, I know people that areplaying the whole time, all the
way to the grave.
They don't ever go through whatI went through.
But I see that transition inlife as huge between what David
was describing, the meetings andthe intensity of one's career to
(07:45):
sudden autonomy and freedom.
In my last chapters where Iwrote about being anonymous,
your status goes out the window,your title out the window,
you're not important anymore.
All of those accolades that youget, that goes away.
For a while, that feels good.
(08:05):
And then suddenly it doesn'tfeel so good.
DaveDon (08:08):
Yeah You use the phrase fear can completely absorb the
aging years.
And I think that's really whatwe're talking about.
I mean, if there is not someplans, some intentionalities
about it then fear can overtakeus during this time.
And so many people seem to beprey to that.
And that's one of the reasonswhy I love your book is because
it wrestles, it kicks againstthe slats, if you will.
(08:29):
It's saying it doesn't have tobe that way.
There are still lessons to belearned.
Barbara S Boyd 2 (08:33):
You know what that fear turns into now, you're
going to hear my prejudice hereand I will step on some toes of
your listeners.
I'm aware of this and thisstatement I'm about to make.
So the disclaimer is you all arenot responsible for the
statement.
But I've come to believe Don,that cruising, of cruise ships,
is precisely what you're talkingabout because it is nothing but
(08:57):
play on a boat in the oceanwhere you can do anything you
want to do as long as you don'tjump overboard.
And Tom and I took a couple ofcruises because we wanted to
know what all the fuss wasabout, but I've never been so
bored in my life.
And I think cruising has becomethe new senior thing to replace
(09:20):
depth, intentionality,adventure, pursuing one's inner
journey.
I mean, if you make it to 70,there's a wealth of experience
and information just livinginside of us, waiting to be
mined, to be shared, to beexplored.
(09:44):
And to cover that up with acruise?
David Lowry (09:47):
Barbara.
I love that.
And I think that there's a lotof things that we do in life to
keep from facing ourselves,whether it's an addictive
behavior of some sort or youspend all your time reading,
going to one thing or another,exercising or whatever it is.
And those are important parts ofour lives.
We need pleasure but this drivefor what did my life mean to me?
(10:08):
seemed to be a driver for you.
So, let's talk about some of thethings that you discovered about
yourself that you think areuniversal for all of us.
And you mentioned one of them iswe are a treasure trove of
information.
What are some of the lessons youlearned from reflection and
looking back and the pilgrimage?
Barbara S Boyd 2 (10:25):
In light of that question, David, the secret
to being that treasure trove isbeing willing at this stage of
life, precisely like the two ofyou are doing right here, you
are an example of what I'mtalking about.
You gotta be willing to give itaway at this stage.
Our knowledge, our wisdombelongs to the world at this
(10:47):
stage.
It's not ours any longer, and tohang on to it, to stifle it, to
suffocate it, not to share it,is to have wasted, in a way, all
of the previous years.
We are the household, theharbingers, the home of the
planet's wisdom at this stage.
(11:09):
And we owe it, it's ourresponsibility, I use that word
in my last paragraph in thebook.
It's our responsibility to handwhat it is that we know and
experience back to the world asgift without being attached to
it, without seeking reward, it'sunconditional.
(11:31):
It's time for the cosmicgiveaway.
It's time to give it away.
The decision that has to be madeis where is that appropriate?
When is the time appropriate?
It's like the student, just thismorning that reached out to me
saying, please help, please giveme your wisdom.
Those moments come if we makeourselves available.
(11:54):
People know that we're nottrying to be, oh, here's the
biggest mistake seniors make.
Tom Boyd taught me this.
We must stop being the expertsas you give away your wisdom and
your knowledge.
It's a gift, a releasing.
It's an allowing.
It's handing it over withoutstrings on it, saying, do with
(12:16):
it what you will.
This is my story, my experience.
I hope this might help you.
And you walk away and you leavethe results to the person.
You don't try to control it, bethe expert with it, manhandle
it, come back and yank it away.
David Lowry (12:34):
Yes.
I love that.
There's no control in wisdom.
Wisdom is there.
It's shared.
If it helps, great.
If it doesn't, it's like, I amnot invested in this, right?
You are the boss of you.
Barbara, moving to this life ofintentionality is something that
many of us haven't experiencedbefore because frankly, our
(12:56):
intentionality was alreadydecided for us.
I have to be at work at nine.
Or I have this project that'sdue.
Or I have these people comingover.
Your intentions are pretty muchset for you.
Now you are setting yourintentionality and you have to
do a weighing of which one ismore important than the other,
so what intentionalities youwould challenge us to start
(13:17):
moving towards?
Barbara S Boyd 2 (13:18):
I find that I'm searching for a word here is
our ability to adapt.
Because if nothing else changes,and by the way, everything else
will change.
But just to say the sentencelike this, if nothing else
changes, your body will change.
DaveDon (13:33):
That's happening, right?
Barbara S Boyd 2 (13:35):
Glasses, teeth, hip replacements, hearing
aids, heart valves, whatever itis, something's going to happen
that's going to change yourphysicality, period.
It's just going to.
And so we either do that withpleasure and with yes, or we're
(13:58):
cranky and crotchety and we ruinour old age, our senior years,
and we run it for everybodyelse.
So I think adaptation becomesvery important.
So part of it is body, but partof it is mindset.
It goes back to that word Donwas using a while ago, the fear
(14:18):
word, our resistance to change.
Seniors are notorious for sayingback in my day, X.
Well, I'm sorry, but your day isgone.
So, are we going to adapt totoday?
To today's world?
To what's required of us to livein today's world?
(14:39):
Our needs for security.
I see so many seniors becomingmore and more insecure and you
cannot death proof anyone.
DaveDon (14:48):
Yeah.
Barbara S Boyd 2 (14:49):
We're all finite.
We're all mortal.
We can't death proof ourselves.
So, this is the time, believe itor not, for risk, not security.
This is a stage of life where wetake risks.
We can risk in the ways ofthinking that we didn't dare
think when we were in ourcareers or we were younger and
(15:11):
didn't know.
We can take risks with ourfriendships and step outside our
comfort zones.
Try a group that you wouldn'tordinarily want to attend.
Go to a church you might notknow anything about.
Take a vacation that would bethe exact opposite of what you
might ordinarily want to do.
(15:32):
This is the time to risk, notbecome secure.
David Lowry (15:36):
My wife has a saying that has meant something
to me.
She says David, let's say yesuntil we have to say no.
Whether it's a trip across thecountry to see our grandkids or
getting in our car and drivingwhich is becoming more and more
an adventure, right?
We have narrow time bands thatwe drive now because we don't
like nighttime and super earlyin the morning and take a lot of
(16:00):
right hand turns instead ofcrossing 17 lanes of traffic
like I might have done as ateenager.
But say yes.
As much as you can and don'tpull the covers over your head.
Barbara S Boyd 2 (16:11):
I want to add another gift from my precious
spouse.
Tom in the seventies, was 40years old, stumbled into a
phrase that he used until hedied.
And it was what he called TheCosmic Yes.
No matter what life throws atus, no matter what we want to do
(16:34):
and choose to do, the answer toit, even to our own death, is
yes.
David Lowry (16:41):
That is something to think about.
This is something that gets alittle dicey, but we've already
crossed that line, haven't we?
So, the dicey thing is, Barbarain her book, and keep in mind,
Barbara has been a religiouswoman all of her life, and
pastored many of those years, isa retired minister.
Barbara says, sometimes in thesenior years, maybe we need to
(17:04):
reconsider those religiousconnections to the point of
walking away from some of them.
So, I'd like to hear yourthinking on that, because you've
been there and done that.
What are your thoughts on that?
Barbara S Boyd 2 (17:15):
Such a tricky question.
There really are two answers toit.
And so I'm going to speak firstto the yes.
And that is, I believe thatreligious affiliation for many
people is a type of salvation.
And I do not mean that in atheological sense.
I mean it in a communal sense.
(17:36):
Seniors and lonely, and they'reisolated and church or synagogue
or mosque or, spiritualcommunity, those gatherings are
critical for many seniors forcommunity.
Not theology, but community.
So, I would never speak againstchurch per- se for that group of
(18:02):
seniors because I believe itsatisfies something that's very
human and very important as weage.
With that set aside, if you're aperson more like me, I've spent
my life in a church building andso part of my journey has been
to withdraw from thatinstitutional world and find a
(18:26):
new place of worship, a newplace for my spiritual growth,
and to let go of most of myreligious connections.
I'm making a very cleardistinction here.
Nature became for me, my church.
I tend to walk a lot and takewalks and put myself on hikes.
(18:49):
I love being out in nature andwilderness parks.
So, Sunday morning, I'll get upand when my friends are headed
off into the church building,I'm headed into the woods.
God and I have a whole lot oftalks.
It's not like God's not talkingto me and I'm not talking to
God.
It's not like I'm not prayingand worshiping.
And sometimes I'm even singinghymns under my breath.
(19:09):
So, I'm having church.
I'm just doing it in the woodsby myself because my communal
needs are many other places.
So that would be the first pieceof it.
The second piece of it is, as weage, for some of us, there's a
kind of graduation process.
I feel graduated from church.
It felt like a very importantpart of my life but this stage
(19:34):
of my life I don't need thebuildings, I don't need the
rituals, the structures, theform.
Tom's word for it was form.
I don't need the forms ofreligion.
What I need are the blessings ofreligion.
For me, that's my spiritualjourney, my prayer life, my
meditation, my yoga, my walks innature.
(19:55):
I'm doing all the same stuff.
I'm just doing it myself.
David Lowry (19:58):
So, in some ways you've never been more
religious.
You're not hanging out in thesame way that you were but you
really feel it more intensely.
I suspect you spend more timethinking about the place of the
divine in your life and how allof that shapes up for you and I
find that fascinating.
Because as you become moresenior in your thinking, it's
(20:18):
like the forms are not asnecessary in the way they once
were.
DaveDon (20:22):
Barbara, I would love to talk about each of the four
pilgrimages but we don't havetime for that.
So, I'd like to zero in on thethird one.
And you're with, I believe it'sJoanne and you're in the
Cotswolds in England.
Barbara S Boyd 2 (20:33):
Yes.
DaveDon (20:33):
And you're doing a pilgrimage from various
historical churches.
And at some point you findyourself utterly by yourself.
I guess you got ahead of Joanneor something.
But you're by yourself, and youmake a statement about anonymity
and ego.
Barbara S Boyd 2 (20:47):
My favorite moment was when that happened to
me.
And it's the one moment that hasstuck with me most graphically
through these eight years.
I was in a wheat field and thetops of the wheat were already
yellow.
Joanne had fallen way behind me.
It was blistering hot.
And I suddenly just stopped anddecided to call Tom.
(21:11):
I don't know why I did that, butI yanked out my phone, tried to
call and there was no tower.
So, I couldn't get through.
And what swept over me was thisfeeling that I was utterly
alone, that nobody on the planetknew where I was and what I was
doing or who I was.
I was not important.
(21:33):
I'm standing in this wheat fieldand I'm not Dr.
Boyd, or Reverend Boyd, or Mrs.
Boyd, or Sister Boyd, or FriendBoyd.
I have no titles, no status.
I'm completely unnecessary tothe functioning of the universe.
I'm taking up space and time.
(21:53):
It swept over me, and it wasn'tnegative feeling, by the way.
DaveDon (21:56):
Yeah, it seems like it was a liberating is the way it
came across to me.
Barbara S Boyd 2 (22:00):
it was a liberation from the ego of all
of my years of gathering titlesand gathering accolades and
status and power and the systemof life.
Suddenly, all of that sweptaway.
It was not important anymore.
And then I was suddenly justliberated from worrying about
(22:24):
how important I was or what mystatus was or who I was.
I was simply one of God'schildren there in the middle of
the garden being allowed tosimply be.
The previous years of all mydoing, which had been good and
positive, was over with.
(22:45):
And suddenly I was called intobeing a being.
So, that particular trip beganto define who I am now, what
I've been working on every day.
Even while I'm doing a lot ofdoing, I'm doing something right
now.
But how do I represent my beingself?
(23:07):
How am I called into thefullness of the creation that I
am?
And how do I live into andthrough that and not worry about
the rest of it?
That's what I've been working onthese eight years.
And Tom's death has reallybrought this home because
there's nothing I can do aboutit.
(23:29):
I'm not in charge.
He's gone.
And so all I've got left is me.
And I've got to create a beingthat can be me without him.
David Lowry (23:42):
Ram Dass said you have to be somebody before you
can be nobody.
And you've been somebody and nowyou're experiencing the nobody.
I think you're sort of likingit.
What are some tips or secretsyou've learned along the way
about becoming that beingperson?
Barbara S Boyd 2 (23:59):
It goes back to something we talked about at
the very beginning of this.
You two, Don and David, need totalk about this.
The difference, frankly, is Ifind a distinction between the
male journey and the femalejourney.
Males in our society are definedby what they do and if you don't
let the other males know whatyou do, then you're not
(24:22):
important and have no status orpower or authority.
That's the male journey.
Female journey is quitedifferent from that.
Our definition is our children,our relationships and so on and
so forth.
Now that's been verystereotypical.
I understand that.
I have as many titles in themale journey as I do in my
(24:43):
female journey.
But still there's a kind ofresonance there in the way that
males, because of societalnorms, have to face retirement
and the way females faceretirement.
And I think that distinction isimportant in how we talk about.
As a woman, I am going toexperience it all quite
(25:03):
differently.
It's easier for me to give uptitles than probably a male.
That's easier for me to do, ifI'm honest about it.
I found anyway, and I have allkinds of titles, but I found
those easier to give up than Ithink Tom did, frankly.
David Lowry (25:20):
By the way, Barbara, when my wife, Cary, was
facing her retirement, she readBarbara's book.
She chose the book, the wisdomyears, and I was talking with
her about it today before thepodcast.
And she was telling me howmeaningful that had been to her.
And I think the reason it wasis-- first of all, it was
written by a woman.
She didn't have to bemansplained about retirement.
(25:43):
But she also felt like youguided her thinking about
retirement in a different way.
She was leaving her job she'dhad for many, many years and
she'd had a long career and wasweary of it.
At the same time, wasn't sure,what's next?
So, I really want to recommendthis book, The Wisdom Years, A
(26:04):
Guide to Intentional Aging byDr.
Barbara Boyd, it has so much tooffer women facing retirement
too.
If my wife is any Indicator ofthat.
I know how meaningful it was toher.
Don has read the book severaltimes.
This is your first full year ofretirement?
DaveDon (26:21):
This first full year.
Yeah.
And if it wasn't for thispodcast, I wouldn't know what to
do.
It's actually been a very goodyear, but i've had a lot of
help.
Doing these podcasts talking tothe kinds of people that we're
talking to, like Barbara andothers has made this a real joy.
Barbara Christy and I, got backfrom the Camino de Santiago,
which is something we had wantedto do for years.
(26:42):
So, we're in the pilgrimagestuff right now.
And actually after I read yourbook, I turned to her and I
said, we need to give a cosmicyes to virtually everything that
we want to do now while we can.
We already can see there'sthings we used to do that we
can't or don't want to and Yeah,I really appreciate you,
appreciate Tom, I've known Tomsince 1983, I think it was.
(27:05):
And miss him, and, so I was sothankful for you being with us
today on Peaceful Life Radio,you've given a great
contribution to our listeners.
David Lowry (27:14):
I also think we should give our listeners a peek
that a new book will be comingout soon from Dr.
Boyd as she's telling us moreabout her experiences with her
beloved Tom Boyd, her husband ofmany years.
They were such a wonderfulcouple and it's such an
inspiration to so many of us.
Barbara, when that book comesout, you're coming back on the
(27:36):
show.
Okay.
We're going to talk about thoseyears.
Barbara S Boyd 2 (27:39):
That book, little different.
It's our love story, so it'svery intimate and personal.
David Lowry (27:44):
Hmm.
Oh just because we're seniorsdoesn't mean we don't want to
hear about intimate and personallove stories.
Barbara S Boyd 2 (27:50):
That what I'm hearing from people.
David Lowry (27:51):
All right.
So, we'll get our PG flag up onthat particular podcast and
we'll have you talk to us aboutall of that.
Thank you for being with ustoday.
Hello, everyone.
(00:00):
This is David Lowry and my goodfriend, Don Drew, for Peaceful
Life Radio, your place on theinternet where we focus on
intentional aging.
Hi, Don.
"How you doing?" I'm doinggreat, David.
How are you doing today?
I'm excited about our guest It'sa longtime friend of mine, 15
years, I believe.
Dr.
Barbara Boyd is a retiredprofessor from the University of
(00:23):
Oklahoma, where she was thedirector of outreach and a
faculty member in the religiousstudies program.
Barbara, I think of you as aspiritual advisor, a wise
person, a woman who has thoughtdeeply about life and the
meaning of life.
You've been a pastor, you haveextensive religious training,
(00:44):
not just Christian, but all ofthem.
And one of the reasons that weinvited Barbara on our program
was that she's written a bookcalled the Wisdom Years, a Guide
to Intentional Aging.
I think my wife had to getapproval from Dr.
Boyd before she could marry me.
And I'm glad that Barbara saidyes.
Barbara, welcome to our programtoday.
(01:05):
We're so glad to have you.
Barbara S Boyd 2 (01:07):
Thank you so much.
And you had to have Tom'sapproval too, because Cary was
his special person.
David Lowry (01:15):
I know, Tom wasn't gonna let just anybody marry
Cary.
Barbara let's begin our program.
How did you come to write thisbook?
What was your motivation?
Barbara S Boyd 2 (01:26):
I turned 70 years old, that's what did it.
I left the university when I wasage 67 and Tom and I retired and
moved to Santa Fe, New Mexicoand set up housekeeping and
began backpacking and hiking anddoing all those things you know,
(01:46):
your bucket list.
Went to New Zealand and Alaska.
Did a lot of travels.
But then I was about to turn 70and I suddenly realized I was
bored.
DaveDon (01:58):
Yeah, Barbara, I want to read this one paragraph from
the start of your book.
It says, After a year of play,which is what you're talking
about, I quickly became mired inboredom and began to explore a
variety of activities andexperiences to help define and
claim my senior years asvaluable years.
But none of those choices I madeinspired me or urged me to move
(02:18):
into my own sense of calling inthe wisdom years, though I was
unfettered, I love this, I wasungrounded.
David Lowry (02:24):
I think that describes a lot of people.
Barbara S Boyd 2 (02:27):
Yes.
In other words, beingunfettered, I could do whatever
I wanted, go wherever I wantedand make any choice I was
capable of making within myphysical world and budget.
I felt utterly free.
But what I learned, of course,is that kind of freedom can lead
(02:49):
to boredom if there's not depthgiven to it.
And so like most retirees, Iplunged into doing all the fun
stuff on my bucket list.
And then one day it just came upshort.
It's like you can do thisforever.
It's like being in a candystore.
Eventually you eat enough candythat you're sick of the sugar.
(03:11):
They're sick of the sweets.
It's not fun anymore.
And that's what had happened tome.
Tom and I had adventures and Iwas ready for depth again in my
life.
And the play was good.
I needed it.
It restored me.
It refreshed me.
Gave me a new sense of what mybody would do at that age.
(03:33):
But, there wasn't a lot of depthto it.
It was all play.
So, I was about to turn 70 andthat sounded ominous to me.
I said to Tom, I am going tocreate a pilgrimage year for
myself, and I'm not going toinvite you on all of my
pilgrimages.
I will invite you on one ofthem, but I'm going to do four.
(03:56):
And, I'm headed out.
I'm going to ask friends onsome, go by myself on some, and
take you on one.
Can you handle that?
And Tom was a delightfullysupportive spouse.
And he said, sure, honey, go forit, you know, have fun.
And that's what the book isabout.
I took four pilgrimages and cameback at the end of that year.
(04:19):
I turned 70 in England walkingthe Cotswolds.
At the end of the year, I cameback and wrote the book about my
lessons and my learning and lifehas been very different since I
wrote this book.
DaveDon (04:33):
One of the things I noticed about in your book is
that you talk about each of thepilgrimages describing the
pilgrimage, but then that'sfollowed by a chapter about
what's happening to youinternally.
We can see you going throughthis growth throughout the year
and all the lessons that youlearn.
Barbara S Boyd 2 (04:50):
Yes.
That model dropped into my headwhen I started trying to
organize the book because Ididn't want to write a
travelogue.
That's not interesting.
Because anyone can do what Idid.
Thousands and thousands ofpeople every year take
pilgrimages.
So I wasn't interested inrecording that.
(05:10):
It dawned on me that the realjourney had taken place inside.
What had I learned?
How had I grown?
Where had I struggled?
What had I failed?
What had I excelled at?
What gave me a new sense ofpurpose and meaning?
What challenged me?
What was my unfinished business?
What was left over?
What was completed?
(05:32):
All of those kinds ofexistential questions that
reside deep in our souls.
I've come up with a word that Ididn't use in the book.
I wish I had known this phrase.
But I've realized recently thatI've been on a journey.
I'm 78 now, and this happened atage 70.
(05:52):
So, in these eight years, myseventies have been a journey of
soul building.
Isn't that a gorgeous term?
David Lowry (06:00):
Soul building.
Yes.
Yes.
I love that term.
Barbara, when you're going atthe speed of life at a very
prestigious university meetingwith thousands of students,
going to meetings and doing allthe things.
It's a very rigorous life.
You don't have all this time toprocess what's happened to me
those 70 years!
DaveDon (06:22):
Yeah, she talks about coming out of the institutional
life, a phrase used by FatherRichard Rohr, a favorite author
of mine, and moving into whatshe calls an intentional life,
which is what I think you'retalking about here, Barbara.
Don't you find thatintentionality is.
somewhat hard to grasp at first.
Barbara S Boyd 2 (06:37):
it's very difficult to grasp.
That's a terrific commentbecause it doesn't just drop in.
It's not automatic.
It doesn't even occur to one fora while right after you've
retired.
I was tired of the institutionalworld as any other person at
retirement.
I was ready to be done withthat.
Suddenly, I'm on my own where Ican do whatever I want to do,
(07:01):
which I did.
But trying to locate one's selfin a brand new stage of life,
that's hard work.
In fact, I think I likened it tobeing a teenager at puberty.
I think the same thing appliesbetween career and the freedom
(07:21):
years-- that become the wisdomyears, if you intend them.
Now, I know people that areplaying the whole time, all the
way to the grave.
They don't ever go through whatI went through.
But I see that transition inlife as huge between what David
was describing, the meetings andthe intensity of one's career to
(07:45):
sudden autonomy and freedom.
In my last chapters where Iwrote about being anonymous,
your status goes out the window,your title out the window,
you're not important anymore.
All of those accolades that youget, that goes away.
For a while, that feels good.
(08:05):
And then suddenly it doesn'tfeel so good.
DaveDon (08:08):
Yeah You use the phrase fear can completely absorb the
aging years.
And I think that's really whatwe're talking about.
I mean, if there is not someplans, some intentionalities
about it then fear can overtakeus during this time.
And so many people seem to beprey to that.
And that's one of the reasonswhy I love your book is because
it wrestles, it kicks againstthe slats, if you will.
(08:29):
It's saying it doesn't have tobe that way.
There are still lessons to belearned.
Barbara S Boyd 2 (08:33):
You know what that fear turns into now, you're
going to hear my prejudice hereand I will step on some toes of
your listeners.
I'm aware of this and thisstatement I'm about to make.
So the disclaimer is you all arenot responsible for the
statement.
But I've come to believe Don,that cruising, of cruise ships,
is precisely what you're talkingabout because it is nothing but
(08:57):
play on a boat in the oceanwhere you can do anything you
want to do as long as you don'tjump overboard.
And Tom and I took a couple ofcruises because we wanted to
know what all the fuss wasabout, but I've never been so
bored in my life.
And I think cruising has becomethe new senior thing to replace
(09:20):
depth, intentionality,adventure, pursuing one's inner
journey.
I mean, if you make it to 70,there's a wealth of experience
and information just livinginside of us, waiting to be
mined, to be shared, to beexplored.
(09:44):
And to cover that up with acruise?
David Lowry (09:47):
Barbara.
I love that.
And I think that there's a lotof things that we do in life to
keep from facing ourselves,whether it's an addictive
behavior of some sort or youspend all your time reading,
going to one thing or another,exercising or whatever it is.
And those are important parts ofour lives.
We need pleasure but this drivefor what did my life mean to me?
(10:08):
seemed to be a driver for you.
So, let's talk about some of thethings that you discovered about
yourself that you think areuniversal for all of us.
And you mentioned one of them iswe are a treasure trove of
information.
What are some of the lessons youlearned from reflection and
looking back and the pilgrimage?
Barbara S Boyd 2 (10:25):
In light of that question, David, the secret
to being that treasure trove isbeing willing at this stage of
life, precisely like the two ofyou are doing right here, you
are an example of what I'mtalking about.
You gotta be willing to give itaway at this stage.
Our knowledge, our wisdombelongs to the world at this
(10:47):
stage.
It's not ours any longer, and tohang on to it, to stifle it, to
suffocate it, not to share it,is to have wasted, in a way, all
of the previous years.
We are the household, theharbingers, the home of the
planet's wisdom at this stage.
(11:09):
And we owe it, it's ourresponsibility, I use that word
in my last paragraph in thebook.
It's our responsibility to handwhat it is that we know and
experience back to the world asgift without being attached to
it, without seeking reward, it'sunconditional.
(11:31):
It's time for the cosmicgiveaway.
It's time to give it away.
The decision that has to be madeis where is that appropriate?
When is the time appropriate?
It's like the student, just thismorning that reached out to me
saying, please help, please giveme your wisdom.
Those moments come if we makeourselves available.
(11:54):
People know that we're nottrying to be, oh, here's the
biggest mistake seniors make.
Tom Boyd taught me this.
We must stop being the expertsas you give away your wisdom and
your knowledge.
It's a gift, a releasing.
It's an allowing.
It's handing it over withoutstrings on it, saying, do with
(12:16):
it what you will.
This is my story, my experience.
I hope this might help you.
And you walk away and you leavethe results to the person.
You don't try to control it, bethe expert with it, manhandle
it, come back and yank it away.
David Lowry (12:34):
Yes.
I love that.
There's no control in wisdom.
Wisdom is there.
It's shared.
If it helps, great.
If it doesn't, it's like, I amnot invested in this, right?
You are the boss of you.
Barbara, moving to this life ofintentionality is something that
many of us haven't experiencedbefore because frankly, our
(12:56):
intentionality was alreadydecided for us.
I have to be at work at nine.
Or I have this project that'sdue.
Or I have these people comingover.
Your intentions are pretty muchset for you.
Now you are setting yourintentionality and you have to
do a weighing of which one ismore important than the other,
so what intentionalities youwould challenge us to start
(13:17):
moving towards?
Barbara S Boyd 2 (13:18):
I find that I'm searching for a word here is
our ability to adapt.
Because if nothing else changes,and by the way, everything else
will change.
But just to say the sentencelike this, if nothing else
changes, your body will change.
DaveDon (13:33):
That's happening, right?
Barbara S Boyd 2 (13:35):
Glasses, teeth, hip replacements, hearing
aids, heart valves, whatever itis, something's going to happen
that's going to change yourphysicality, period.
It's just going to.
And so we either do that withpleasure and with yes, or we're
(13:58):
cranky and crotchety and we ruinour old age, our senior years,
and we run it for everybodyelse.
So I think adaptation becomesvery important.
So part of it is body, but partof it is mindset.
It goes back to that word Donwas using a while ago, the fear
(14:18):
word, our resistance to change.
Seniors are notorious for sayingback in my day, X.
Well, I'm sorry, but your day isgone.
So, are we going to adapt totoday?
To today's world?
To what's required of us to livein today's world?
(14:39):
Our needs for security.
I see so many seniors becomingmore and more insecure and you
cannot death proof anyone.
DaveDon (14:48):
Yeah.
Barbara S Boyd 2 (14:49):
We're all finite.
We're all mortal.
We can't death proof ourselves.
So, this is the time, believe itor not, for risk, not security.
This is a stage of life where wetake risks.
We can risk in the ways ofthinking that we didn't dare
think when we were in ourcareers or we were younger and
(15:11):
didn't know.
We can take risks with ourfriendships and step outside our
comfort zones.
Try a group that you wouldn'tordinarily want to attend.
Go to a church you might notknow anything about.
Take a vacation that would bethe exact opposite of what you
might ordinarily want to do.
(15:32):
This is the time to risk, notbecome secure.
David Lowry (15:36):
My wife has a saying that has meant something
to me.
She says David, let's say yesuntil we have to say no.
Whether it's a trip across thecountry to see our grandkids or
getting in our car and drivingwhich is becoming more and more
an adventure, right?
We have narrow time bands thatwe drive now because we don't
like nighttime and super earlyin the morning and take a lot of
(16:00):
right hand turns instead ofcrossing 17 lanes of traffic
like I might have done as ateenager.
But say yes.
As much as you can and don'tpull the covers over your head.
Barbara S Boyd 2 (16:11):
I want to add another gift from my precious
spouse.
Tom in the seventies, was 40years old, stumbled into a
phrase that he used until hedied.
And it was what he called TheCosmic Yes.
No matter what life throws atus, no matter what we want to do
(16:34):
and choose to do, the answer toit, even to our own death, is
yes.
David Lowry (16:41):
That is something to think about.
This is something that gets alittle dicey, but we've already
crossed that line, haven't we?
So, the dicey thing is, Barbarain her book, and keep in mind,
Barbara has been a religiouswoman all of her life, and
pastored many of those years, isa retired minister.
Barbara says, sometimes in thesenior years, maybe we need to
(17:04):
reconsider those religiousconnections to the point of
walking away from some of them.
So, I'd like to hear yourthinking on that, because you've
been there and done that.
What are your thoughts on that?
Barbara S Boyd 2 (17:15):
Such a tricky question.
There really are two answers toit.
And so I'm going to speak firstto the yes.
And that is, I believe thatreligious affiliation for many
people is a type of salvation.
And I do not mean that in atheological sense.
I mean it in a communal sense.
(17:36):
Seniors and lonely, and they'reisolated and church or synagogue
or mosque or, spiritualcommunity, those gatherings are
critical for many seniors forcommunity.
Not theology, but community.
So, I would never speak againstchurch per- se for that group of
(18:02):
seniors because I believe itsatisfies something that's very
human and very important as weage.
With that set aside, if you're aperson more like me, I've spent
my life in a church building andso part of my journey has been
to withdraw from thatinstitutional world and find a
(18:26):
new place of worship, a newplace for my spiritual growth,
and to let go of most of myreligious connections.
I'm making a very cleardistinction here.
Nature became for me, my church.
I tend to walk a lot and takewalks and put myself on hikes.
(18:49):
I love being out in nature andwilderness parks.
So, Sunday morning, I'll get upand when my friends are headed
off into the church building,I'm headed into the woods.
God and I have a whole lot oftalks.
It's not like God's not talkingto me and I'm not talking to
God.
It's not like I'm not prayingand worshiping.
And sometimes I'm even singinghymns under my breath.
(19:09):
So, I'm having church.
I'm just doing it in the woodsby myself because my communal
needs are many other places.
So that would be the first pieceof it.
The second piece of it is, as weage, for some of us, there's a
kind of graduation process.
I feel graduated from church.
It felt like a very importantpart of my life but this stage
(19:34):
of my life I don't need thebuildings, I don't need the
rituals, the structures, theform.
Tom's word for it was form.
I don't need the forms ofreligion.
What I need are the blessings ofreligion.
For me, that's my spiritualjourney, my prayer life, my
meditation, my yoga, my walks innature.
(19:55):
I'm doing all the same stuff.
I'm just doing it myself.
David Lowry (19:58):
So, in some ways you've never been more
religious.
You're not hanging out in thesame way that you were but you
really feel it more intensely.
I suspect you spend more timethinking about the place of the
divine in your life and how allof that shapes up for you and I
find that fascinating.
Because as you become moresenior in your thinking, it's
(20:18):
like the forms are not asnecessary in the way they once
were.
DaveDon (20:22):
Barbara, I would love to talk about each of the four
pilgrimages but we don't havetime for that.
So, I'd like to zero in on thethird one.
And you're with, I believe it'sJoanne and you're in the
Cotswolds in England.
Barbara S Boyd 2 (20:33):
Yes.
DaveDon (20:33):
And you're doing a pilgrimage from various
historical churches.
And at some point you findyourself utterly by yourself.
I guess you got ahead of Joanneor something.
But you're by yourself, and youmake a statement about anonymity
and ego.
Barbara S Boyd 2 (20:47):
My favorite moment was when that happened to
me.
And it's the one moment that hasstuck with me most graphically
through these eight years.
I was in a wheat field and thetops of the wheat were already
yellow.
Joanne had fallen way behind me.
It was blistering hot.
And I suddenly just stopped anddecided to call Tom.
(21:11):
I don't know why I did that, butI yanked out my phone, tried to
call and there was no tower.
So, I couldn't get through.
And what swept over me was thisfeeling that I was utterly
alone, that nobody on the planetknew where I was and what I was
doing or who I was.
I was not important.
(21:33):
I'm standing in this wheat fieldand I'm not Dr.
Boyd, or Reverend Boyd, or Mrs.
Boyd, or Sister Boyd, or FriendBoyd.
I have no titles, no status.
I'm completely unnecessary tothe functioning of the universe.
I'm taking up space and time.
(21:53):
It swept over me, and it wasn'tnegative feeling, by the way.
DaveDon (21:56):
Yeah, it seems like it was a liberating is the way it
came across to me.
Barbara S Boyd 2 (22:00):
it was a liberation from the ego of all
of my years of gathering titlesand gathering accolades and
status and power and the systemof life.
Suddenly, all of that sweptaway.
It was not important anymore.
And then I was suddenly justliberated from worrying about
(22:24):
how important I was or what mystatus was or who I was.
I was simply one of God'schildren there in the middle of
the garden being allowed tosimply be.
The previous years of all mydoing, which had been good and
positive, was over with.
(22:45):
And suddenly I was called intobeing a being.
So, that particular trip beganto define who I am now, what
I've been working on every day.
Even while I'm doing a lot ofdoing, I'm doing something right
now.
But how do I represent my beingself?
(23:07):
How am I called into thefullness of the creation that I
am?
And how do I live into andthrough that and not worry about
the rest of it?
That's what I've been working onthese eight years.
And Tom's death has reallybrought this home because
there's nothing I can do aboutit.
(23:29):
I'm not in charge.
He's gone.
And so all I've got left is me.
And I've got to create a beingthat can be me without him.
David Lowry (23:42):
Ram Dass said you have to be somebody before you
can be nobody.
And you've been somebody and nowyou're experiencing the nobody.
I think you're sort of likingit.
What are some tips or secretsyou've learned along the way
about becoming that beingperson?
Barbara S Boyd 2 (23:59):
It goes back to something we talked about at
the very beginning of this.
You two, Don and David, need totalk about this.
The difference, frankly, is Ifind a distinction between the
male journey and the femalejourney.
Males in our society are definedby what they do and if you don't
let the other males know whatyou do, then you're not
(24:22):
important and have no status orpower or authority.
That's the male journey.
Female journey is quitedifferent from that.
Our definition is our children,our relationships and so on and
so forth.
Now that's been verystereotypical.
I understand that.
I have as many titles in themale journey as I do in my
(24:43):
female journey.
But still there's a kind ofresonance there in the way that
males, because of societalnorms, have to face retirement
and the way females faceretirement.
And I think that distinction isimportant in how we talk about.
As a woman, I am going toexperience it all quite
(25:03):
differently.
It's easier for me to give uptitles than probably a male.
That's easier for me to do, ifI'm honest about it.
I found anyway, and I have allkinds of titles, but I found
those easier to give up than Ithink Tom did, frankly.
David Lowry (25:20):
By the way, Barbara, when my wife, Cary, was
facing her retirement, she readBarbara's book.
She chose the book, the wisdomyears, and I was talking with
her about it today before thepodcast.
And she was telling me howmeaningful that had been to her.
And I think the reason it wasis-- first of all, it was
written by a woman.
She didn't have to bemansplained about retirement.
(25:43):
But she also felt like youguided her thinking about
retirement in a different way.
She was leaving her job she'dhad for many, many years and
she'd had a long career and wasweary of it.
At the same time, wasn't sure,what's next?
So, I really want to recommendthis book, The Wisdom Years, A
(26:04):
Guide to Intentional Aging byDr.
Barbara Boyd, it has so much tooffer women facing retirement
too.
If my wife is any Indicator ofthat.
I know how meaningful it was toher.
Don has read the book severaltimes.
This is your first full year ofretirement?
DaveDon (26:21):
This first full year.
Yeah.
And if it wasn't for thispodcast, I wouldn't know what to
do.
It's actually been a very goodyear, but i've had a lot of
help.
Doing these podcasts talking tothe kinds of people that we're
talking to, like Barbara andothers has made this a real joy.
Barbara Christy and I, got backfrom the Camino de Santiago,
which is something we had wantedto do for years.
(26:42):
So, we're in the pilgrimagestuff right now.
And actually after I read yourbook, I turned to her and I
said, we need to give a cosmicyes to virtually everything that
we want to do now while we can.
We already can see there'sthings we used to do that we
can't or don't want to and Yeah,I really appreciate you,
appreciate Tom, I've known Tomsince 1983, I think it was.
(27:05):
And miss him, and, so I was sothankful for you being with us
today on Peaceful Life Radio,you've given a great
contribution to our listeners.
David Lowry (27:14):
I also think we should give our listeners a peek
that a new book will be comingout soon from Dr.
Boyd as she's telling us moreabout her experiences with her
beloved Tom Boyd, her husband ofmany years.
They were such a wonderfulcouple and it's such an
inspiration to so many of us.
Barbara, when that book comesout, you're coming back on the
(27:36):
show.
Okay.
We're going to talk about thoseyears.
Barbara S Boyd 2 (27:39):
That book, little different.
It's our love story, so it'svery intimate and personal.
David Lowry (27:44):
Hmm.
Oh just because we're seniorsdoesn't mean we don't want to
hear about intimate and personallove stories.
Barbara S Boyd 2 (27:50):
That what I'm hearing from people.
David Lowry (27:51):
All right.
So, we'll get our PG flag up onthat particular podcast and
we'll have you talk to us aboutall of that.
Thank you for being with ustoday.
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