September 12, 2025 • 29 mins
From Boyhood to True Manhood
Real Men Feel host Andy Grant engages in an insightful conversation with Alessandro Frosali, a men's coach and host of the S-T-F-U-A-L podcast. Alessandro shares his transformational journey from hitting rock bottom in his marriage to reclaiming integrated manhood.
The discussion explores the crucial differences between boyhood and manhood behaviors, the significance of rites of passage, and the importance of elder wisdom in modern life. Alessandro also highlights practical tools for self-discovery and the value of emotional control, responsibility, and authentic connections in personal growth and relationships.
00:00 Boys Ruling The World
00:26 Meet Alessandro Frosali: A Journey of Transformation
01:23 The Turning Point: What Does It Mean to Be a Man?
05:34 Boy Behavior vs. Man Behavior
14:51 The Importance of Rites of Passage
20:35 Creating Love and Unity: The Mission Behind the Podcast
22:11 Tools for Self-Discovery and Growth
27:03 Final Thoughts and Closing Remarks
Connect with Alessandro
Instagram — https://www.instagram.com/alessandro_frosali/
Alessandro Frosali — https://alessandrofrosali.com/
YouTube — https://www.youtube.com/@alessandrofrosali
Resources
The Making of Men: Raising boys to be happy, healthy and successful by Arne Rubenstin — https://amzn.to/41SYUff
The Artist’s Way by Julia Cameron — https://amzn.to/4pk53eB
Connect with Andy and the Real Men Feel Podcast:
Join me and connect with other like-minded men in the
Authentic AF Community | http://realmenfeel.org/group
Instagram | @realmenfeelshow & @theandygrant
Andy Grant Website | https://theandygrant.com for coaching, healing, and book info!
Real Men Feel Website | http://realmenfeel.org
YouTube | https://youtube.com/realmenfeel
#RealMenFeel ep 370
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Now that all of that is fine in an 8 to 10 year old, but if we
start having, you know, men thatwant to be the centre of the
universe, the centre of attention, cannot take
responsibility, you know, cannotrule their emotions and want to
be with a mother, then we start living in a world that's run by
boys rather than men. Hello and welcome to Real Men
Feel. The podcaster reminds men that
they are human too, and that it's not only OK to feel, it's
(00:23):
powerful. I'm your host, Andy Green Today
I'm joined by Alessandro Fasali,a men's coach, retreat leader,
and host of the STFUAL Podcast, which stands for Shut the Fuck
Up and Listen. After hitting rock bottom in his
own marriage, Alessandro committed to a deep journey of
transformation and reclaimed what he calls integrated
manhood. He now helps men step out of boy
(00:45):
like behaviors, reclaim their masculine energy, and lead with
presence in their relationships and lives.
We'll be diving into the difference between boy and man
behavior, the importance of rites of passage, and why elder
wisdom is so crucial in modern life.
And hey, if you're looking for aspace to connect with other men
on the journey of authenticity and growth, join us in the
authentic AF community at realmenfeel.org/group.
(01:09):
It's free, it's real, it's for men like you.
Now let's do it. Hello Alessandra, and welcome to
Real Men Feel. Thank you so much for having me,
Andy. Yeah, we.
So I was on your podcast a little bit ago, so I've been
looking forward to this conversation.
When we spoke early, you talked that there was a turning point
in your marriage when you asked what the fuck is a man?
So can you tell me about? First of all, I would say this
(01:32):
is this turning point sort of pushed me into the the works
that I'm doing now. Essentially, my wife told me
that she wanted to be me to be more of a man or she was
leaving. This came at a certain point in
my life and I basically got so angry enough.
It's like, I am a man. Like, what the fuck do you mean?
Like I have balls? Like what are you talking about?
(01:53):
What that did though for me was it maybe actually have to search
for what that answer meant to me.
You know, that got me on a journey of losing weight.
It got me on a journey of reading.
I think I read literally up to 15 books on what masculinity was
I, I was, I was doing coaching and therapy at the time.
And then also I started working in with rites of passage and I
(02:16):
was already working with them insocial media and I had learnt a
lot more about the making of theman from from them.
And all of these sort of came together and I implemented this
into my marriage and started a men's group as well.
Yeah. All of these things were just
this like perfect storm of all of these things.
And then eventually men started asking me for help.
And so I, I found myself like giving help, you know?
(02:40):
Before that ultimatum, did you feel like you were a man?
Were you that that did that question, that ultimatum
surprise you? I.
Think it did surprise me, but the thing that surprised me the
most is I had never actually given thought to to I guess what
a man was. Maybe that's actually a literal
lie. I actually always thought I was
(03:00):
a little bit more of an effeminate man.
I always thought that I had like, because I was, you know, I
was, I've always been very touch, in touch with feelings,
always been in very touch with creativity, intuition growing
up. And, and I never actually
touched the aspects of masculinity.
And I think a lot of that had todo with the fact that I I was
bullied at school. So I didn't like men.
(03:22):
You know, men kind of seemed threatening to me specifically.
But yeah, I mean, it, it it didn't, it wasn't bad.
I actually really love the fact that I went through that
journey, you know? And and how did that
relationship evolve after that? Was was that a breaking point?
Did you working yourself bring some relief to the relationship
(03:43):
itself? 100 percent, 100% and extra
fact, like our relationship has gone from strength to strength
since then. And I think the real thing about
when a woman asks a man, I need you to be more of a man is
actually not really. It's more to do with her wanting
to be more of a woman and it hasnothing really to do with, you
know, you're not having balls oranything.
(04:04):
It's really about wanting to notfeel like she has to hold so
much. And I think that's what's
happened in our societies is that women actually do have to
hold quite a lot. And they have to hold a lot in,
you know, not only are they, arethey working, you know, full
time often and they're looking after households and, and
they're like looking after the, the, the, the emotional brain on
(04:25):
where a relationship with dogs. And So what I noticed with my
wife was me stepping up to beingmore of a man.
It'd actually be equally described as me stepping
stepping up to be more of an equal partner.
No, I get that a lot. So that's cool.
I didn't realize that relationship was still the one
you're in, so that, that's fantastic.
How long did it take you to see the gift in that ultimatum?
(04:49):
To have these insights that wow,that she wants to be more of
herself, so I must be more of myself.
I took a while that's a gloss for me to see it as a gift.
That's the interesting words there for me to act on it.
I actually started acting on it quite quickly.
But for me to see it as gift probably 2 years.
And in actual fact, it was quitea lonely two years.
And this is the, the reasoning for starting a men's group in
(05:11):
the 1st place is, you know, I think we, it's quite, it's quite
a lonely thing to be emasculated.
The moment you get emasculated, it's, it's pained, it's a lot of
pain. And it's the harshest thing to
have from somebody you love, notcall you a man.
And so it took me a while to seeit as a gift, you know, but I
(05:32):
would say it's three years old up.
You talk a lot about the difference between boy behaviour
and man behaviour. Could you kind of define both of
those for me? Yeah, 100%.
So boy behaviour and man behaviour was some actually some
a really beautiful model by Doctor Anda Rubenstein in his
book The Making of Men. And he's actually a mentor of
(05:54):
mine. So I ended up doing the social
media for, for the rites of passage Institute for for years.
And I would, I would edit their videos.
He would literally be on stages and talk about it and he'd have
this model of 1 to 1. And and so interestingly, in my
journey, when I was like, what makes a man along it?
I stopped and, and I, I was likewatching a video and it's
(06:16):
literally in front of my face. This is a boy and this is a man.
So I'll share exactly what that model was.
But it was, it was just funny. Like that was the ironic thing.
It was like, I'm here looking for all these answers outside
and then it's literally my job to edit somebody's video for who
actually gives you exactly what a man is.
And so the first thing is talking about boy behaviours.
(06:39):
So if we talk about boy behaviours, this is uninitiated
men. So boys, a boy is a centre like
wants to be the centre of attention, wants to be the
centre of the universe, wants tobe like, look at me, look at me.
It's like even when you go to the toilet, it's like, oh, look
at the big poo. I did you know, or you know
anything, Just look at me, look at me centre of the universe.
(07:01):
A boy does not take responsibility for their
actions. So when something goes wrong,
like almost a boy would, even ifthey're playing baseball out in
the backyard and they hit a balland it hits the glass in in in a
house and breaks the glass, A boy would be like they would
almost even blame the ball, the shape of the ball as the thing
(07:23):
that broke the glass. Not then, right?
Doesn't take responsibility. The next thing is has no
emotional control. Boys don't aren't able to
emotionally control themselves and the boy in the end just
wants a mother, doesn't want a healthy relationship with the
feminine. Now that all of that is fine in
(07:44):
an 8 to 10 year old, but if we start having, you know, men that
want to be the centre of the universe, the centre of
attention, cannot take responsibility, you know, cannot
rule their emotions and want to be with a mother, then we start
living in a world that's from boys rather than men.
And so how we shift that insteadof wanting centre to be the
centre of attention is wanting power, wanting attention, but
(08:07):
using that for the community, using that for, for service.
That's, that's the, the healthy male version from the boy to
that. Then we're talking about
responsibility. It's taking responsibility for
when you do things wrong. It's not to be capitulating and
going, oh, I'm so sorry and begging their way through it.
But to be really strong, strong enough to go, yeah, I, I screwed
(08:28):
that up. That's on me and fix it, you
know, like that's that's the thethat's a really clear transition
from boy to man. Then holding emotions.
So it's not about and this is great for your podcast here is
it's not about not being vulnerable, but it's about being
controlling of emotions. Men do not need to throw
tantrums. It's you know, if something's
(08:50):
wrong, it's not you can't share it and you you can't be
vulnerable about it. But we cannot punish somebody in
the street. We cannot get to anger to the
point where it's like I cannot control this and I need to burst
it out. That's boy behaviour and when we
have boy behaviour in strong menbodies, it's dangerous.
(09:11):
So again, controlling emotion needs to happen.
That clarification important because I meet lots of guys who
hear messages like this and think controlling their emotions
means shutting them all down, denying them all, not feeling
them. No, it's just being more in
control of how and when they're expressed.
Exactly. So it's not losing the
vulnerability. You want to be as vulnerable as
(09:32):
possible, but control the emotion so that it doesn't
control you because you need to like feel the feel the emotion,
but don't be led by the emotion.That's where that it comes from.
And if you find yourself literally not being able to do
anything other than what the emotion is.
So if you're in sadness and thatsadness leads you to the
(09:54):
ultimate point of where sadness leads you, that's just, that's
not holding the emotion because there was no space given to it
earlier. You know, it's that's no
controlling of it. It's not even giving it space.
That's where shutdown comes. I'm really resonating with the
responsibility. So for years I shunned
responsibility because I thoughtthat meant blame.
(10:16):
So it wasn't until I realized I can't change anything in my life
unless I take responsibility forit.
I think that's a big key. So it's not about whose fault is
it, it's about who can change it.
Yeah, I think The thing is, and that's one thing we always
forget is, and you see this in boy behaviour a lot, it's like
blame. It's not fair.
It's not fair that I that, that somebody else is telling me
(10:38):
this. It's not fair.
And it's like, well, if we understand that the sooner we
take responsibility even for things that are not ours, the
sooner we can change it because we can.
If we take responsibility even for something that's not ours,
we even take responsibility. We take responsibility of how we
react to it and it puts you in control.
If you do not take responsibility, you do not have
(11:01):
any control over your life. We turn into victims.
You know, this person did that thing to me.
So even that it's like the most horrible thing can happen to
you. But if you go into that, it
starts going victim and you you put yourself in no sense of
being somebody that can actuallyhave control of your own life.
And for it to live a happy life,we need to take more of control.
(11:24):
And so then the final thing about the boy to man model is
wanting a relationship with the feminine, not a mother.
And so you often will tell, likeboy behaviour is, you know,
being scared of a woman's period, being scared of like,
thinking it's disgusting, not understanding the chaos of what
a woman is and having to run away from it at every point.
(11:45):
You know, to be able to genuinely sit in the fire of
what a woman is and still love her anyway and all of that.
That is that is where the the you know, that's the the
transition. It's not just wanting to have
nurturing from your mother and make sure you're soon done all
of this. It's having a a new conscious
relationship in whatever form that is.
(12:07):
Now that doesn't have to be onlywomen.
It can be a conscious relationship with men.
It's it's not about a man is is in sexuality, but it's more not
taking the unconscious of the parent wounds through to a new
relationship and actually consciously getting away from
the parents. And that's the thing.
(12:28):
So obviously in the in the it's not as as inclusive in that old
man only when we only talk mother wound, but it happens
with father wound too, whenever we make conscious decisions,
rather unconscious decisions within our new relationships.
And so that's the whole model. Are there some men that grew up
in such a healthy environment they don't have a father wound
or a mother wound? Probably not.
(12:52):
I mean, probably. Well.
Actually, no, I, I take that back.
Actually, I take that back. It's to those points.
There is always things to deal with with your parents.
There are always going to be things to deal with, but whether
they become a wound or not is actually the interesting thing
here. So even when you, when you have
the most loving parents and you have parents that because I, I'm
(13:15):
very consciously thinking about this myself, because we're
thinking of becoming parents ourselves truer in me.
And I haven't tested this yet, you know, so I haven't got kids
yet. So I can't tell you
definitively. But my theory is this.
The best we can do is to raise achild to, to understand that
they can be exactly who they need to be and who they are and
(13:37):
that the blueprint of themselvesis within.
And that even if they had to leave the family and go, that
that would be OK as long as theywere listening to themselves.
And if you could actually get tothat point and actually not hurt
them and actually allow them space for who they are and, and
gross in all of this way it is. And then also naturally go
(13:58):
through the right of passage processes, like the mother being
the main caregiver for a boy until like 1214.
But then the boy spends quite a bit of time with the father and
understands his father, but thenalso has male mentors and then
goes through a rite of passage and goes on his way.
It is entirely plausible that that child would get to all of
that and don't have a wound. And then they would just have to
(14:22):
deal with the fact that they're different from their parents and
maybe they would have a little bit of competition with their
father and maybe they would havea little bit of another.
I got a little bit clingy, but I'm actually good, you know, and
I can let that go. And they have to deal with
attachments and detachments and things like that.
So it doesn't have to be a wound, but we live in a world
where I would say 95% of 95% is Williams because they they're
(14:45):
not treated at the time, they'retreated much later.
And that's the problem. They're not treated at the time.
So no, you you already mentionedinitiation.
So why? Why are rites of passage and
initiation so important for men?Well, it's important for
everyone, but specifically for men is is because we all want to
(15:06):
belong in somewhere, right? So in after a fact, most of our
behaviour comes from wanting to belong.
The unfortunate thing is that ifwe want to belong somewhere, if
we don't have the right of passage or initiation, then we
need to actually break down whata right of passage or an
initiation is, especially in a modern sense.
(15:27):
In a past sense, you know, we just look at it like 50 kids go
out into the wilderness with unfold men and then they they go
and kill a lion. OK, so that that, you know,
could be part of what rite of passage is.
But there are four key stages ofa rite of passage.
A rite of passages, sharing stories.
You share stories with elders and elders sharing stories to
(15:47):
young people allows them the elders to give wisdom and it
allows the young people to get to also to get the wisdom and it
gives the elders some purpose. So it's actually a rite of
passage for both elder and youngpeople, right?
It's this beautiful thing and sothey, the young people get the
stories and they get informed bythat.
That's fantastic. The second part of a rite of
passage is the challenge and this is answers your question.
(16:10):
It's important for men specifically as a challenge
because we're geared towards challenge.
Men like grow through challenge.They get their sense of
self-confidence through challenge.
They get their sense of community through challenge.
Challenge is the thing that likebuilds them up.
The third aspect of our rite of passage is honouring and my
mentor in, in, in Doctor Anna Rubenstein through this, you
(16:32):
know he, he has taken 400,000 young boys and their fathers
into the Australian woods to do these rite of passage camps.
And the ordering bit is where they would set up a chair and
the boy would go and sit in the chair after the five days and
every single man and boy would say what is great about that
(16:52):
young boy? Where, where do they see his
brilliance? Where do they see his talents?
Because there's this belief thatevery single one of us have
gifts and talents. And if you see this, then it's
it's your responsibility to bring your own gifts and talents
to the community. And it's the community's
responsibility to help you see your own gifts and talents.
(17:12):
And that's the self-serving thing of the community and and
the self. And so in a rite of passage, you
have this honouring moment wheresomebody actually, maybe for the
first time in their life, they feel like they actually have
worse. They have worse.
And in the final bit, the final aspect, the 4th aspect of a rite
of passage is creating a healthyvision for the future.
(17:34):
And healthy vision for the future means that we actually
succeed. Studies have shown that, you
know, you're 70% more likely to even achieve something just by
writing it down, you know, And so when we talk about why is it
essential for people to have a rite of passage, well, this was
this was actually a practice that most humanity had and we no
(17:56):
longer have. And if you look at all of those
things, most of our issues in life would be solved by just
having those four things within a five day period.
And so that's why rites of passenger really important,
really important. There's one of the, I had, I had
a magical year of 2016 in which I was initiated with the Mankind
(18:18):
Project, initiated purely from boyhood to manhood.
And I was initiated into the Modern Mystery School that same
year. And there are two things I
recommend to everybody. But I didn't realize they were
missing and until I had them. So I, I love these 4 breakdowns
of, of what really makes up a rite of passage because I do,
you know, I do hear it a lot. But what's the biggest sign that
(18:40):
you see in men today that they have not had any sort of
initiation? What's What's the behavior?
A boy like behavior, Yeah. Boiler behaviour so.
So if you, yeah, if you find yourself not being able to
emotionally connect, wanting responsibility, like wanting
power or emotional shutdown or separation from task.
So one thing that I see in in the space where I work, like I
(19:04):
work in the marriage space at the moment.
So my space is truly in helping men become better husbands.
And that's why like the retreat that I'm the right of passage
retreat I'm running next year isall about helping husbands be
initiated into their husband because we we get this like you
think you're initiated by just signing a piece of paper, but
you have no idea what that actually means.
(19:24):
What did you actually take that on?
And so I think the biggest symbol sign that you see in men
today is not understanding the task.
When you are married, you signedon to the task of teamwork
community. That's your community, that's
your center right. And if you start seeing like a
man looking at his wife as the enemy, if you start seeing a man
(19:46):
look at the community as an enemy, if you start seeing a man
look at yeah, like things as enemies, he's completely
separate from community. And this was the other thing I
didn't mention earlier. I spoke about communities
earlier. We want community.
And then I talked about the fourstages of a rite of passage.
And what I missed was if we don't find alpha community like
(20:07):
this. In a rite of passage and you
know, you get the elders and youget the sense of belonging to
your family. If you don't find that, you will
find unhealthy community becausewe as humans need community.
And so if you don't find a healthy community, you will find
an unhealthy community. And that is the problem with not
having it. And so that even comes here to
(20:28):
this. If you start seeing men in
unhealthy communities, it just means they've not been
initiated. Really a healthy community.
No, that makes a lot of sense. Alessandra, what inspired you to
create your podcast STFUAL? Come on Andy, say it, say it
properly, shut the fuck up and listen.
(20:52):
Well, initially it was this whole idea of helping men
eradicate boy like behaviour andmove to to healthy adult
behaviour. And I believe it is that.
But upon, you know, 20 episodes in and I think as things sort
of, I realized that my whole purpose on this earth and my
wife is the same. We share the same purpose.
(21:14):
I want to bring people into loveand unity.
I truly believe that we have forces within our society that
separate U.S. forces within our society that that it it's very
beneficial for society to have us not be within love, not be
within connection, not be not bewithin unity of community and
(21:36):
with your partner. And if I can make men
specifically, that's who I'm targeting because that's who I
am and that's who I know. And I know my journey and I just
speak to the men that are along the same journey as me, if I can
help them be their partner in a different lighting and more
loving light as a teammate and if I can help more loving
(21:57):
community, that's what I do. So everything I do when there's
the podcast, my coaching treats,the the Instagram stuff, my
emails, all of it just follows that.
I just want to make more love and community in this world.
Is there a specific tool, book, or practice that had the most
impact on your journey? I wouldn't say a specific, but I
(22:21):
would say a result which you canget from many different ways and
you have to find the right way for you.
The number one way that you are ever going to move forward
within this is to understand andknow yourself.
And so whatever that tool is, soa lot of people say OK, the best
(22:42):
tool to know yourself is meditation.
But that has that very high buy in because people would rather
people would rather take a Valium than than meditate,
right. So meditation has a very high
buy in. So it's difficult for people to
do that. Breath work is a really
beautiful way to not start knowing and understanding
yourself. But again, pretty high buy in
because you have to listen to some weird half spiritual dude,
(23:06):
you know, telling you to breathein through your belly.
I don't like to do that. It sounds a bit woo woo, little
bit gay for me. That's what most men would say.
And and so again, high buy in, what I really like is, I mean,
my favorite is like, I really dolike psilocybin mushroom trips
sometimes. Like I do think that they really
get there. But again, very high buy in
(23:27):
because then you've got whole ideas on, you know, whether
illegal or not and, and the whole world of this.
But I think that for a man who'sreally wanting to have the
lowest buy in, I would try something on a stream of
consciousness writing. So get yourself an A four piece
of paper. I literally do this with every
one of my coaching clients. And the first homework I get
(23:47):
them to do is buy an exercise book, the the shittiest exercise
book you can something like 90 cent one for, for, you know,
school. And every morning you have
forced it's it's Saturday with Julia Cameron's the morning
pages. She has this in the hardest way,
but I think it's beautiful for men to do because what you have
(24:08):
to do is you have to fill 3 pages and those 3 pages have to
be a force and has to be handwritten.
And this is great for men who say, Oh well, I don't know what
to write, perfect. You just write.
I don't know what to write, I don't know what to write.
And you keep writing it. It's the screen of consciousness
until you reach the end of threepages.
But the interesting thing is theego will tell you this is a
(24:31):
terrible activity. I hate this.
Screw this. You know, man, on a podcast who
told me you have to do this, This is fucking awful, blah,
blah, blah. It'll remind that for one page,
the second page, you'll start writing your To Do List for the
day. And then the third page, if you
turn your car. I'm upset right now because I've
(24:52):
never been home and all of a sudden, oh, there's me, there's
me. So yeah, all these other methods
that have very high buy in, I think they're brilliant.
And if you want to jump into themeditation breathword mushrooms,
you know, the cow ceremonies, whatever, they're very good.
But if you want the lowest buy in, go into journaling Stream of
Consciousness Friday. So I really, I can't be sure
(25:14):
which came first, but I met it. I took on meditation and
journaling about the same time. But yeah, I, I always advise
people to, to journaling exercises, meditation.
And you know, meditation can be as simple as, you know, shut
your eyes and take 3 deep breaths.
It doesn't mean crush your legs.Go sit in a mountaintop for an
hour and a half like it, it, youknow, we, we cannot speak for
myself, I put all these woo woo gay practices way up and
(25:37):
impossible to reach until I was sick of being in so much pain
that I wanted to die, that I waswilling to be wrong about
everything I thought and try something.
And I found when I tried things that were perhaps too woo woo or
too weird or out there, I got results.
And that's glad you said it was key earlier.
The the results are are what arewhat everyone needs.
(26:01):
Well, I think on my podcast, yousaid something beautiful.
Do you want to be sad or do you want to be happy?
And in the end, it's like there's a certain point where,
yeah, you do just buy in. Like I think you, I think you
have to be called to attune yourmethod.
Like there's a certain, there's a certain mystery to life, which
I love. There's a certain magic to life
(26:23):
where you might say I'm ready, I'm open, but I don't know how.
Life has a wonderful way of within seven days, it'll show
you the path forward. Ask and it is given.
It'll show you like all of a sudden someone will be like,
have you ever tried like breath work?
(26:44):
There's a thing on tomorrow night.
Do you want to come with me? And you'll be like, well, like I
just asked for something like, that's weird.
It's that sort of thing. There's the synchronicities in
this energy of the way that lifeworks, which I think is we
cannot understate that. Oh, like yeah, that's the the
core of it. Going back to Elder wisdom, if
(27:06):
you could talk directly to your younger self, what would you
tell that young man? I.
Don't think I would tell him anything.
You'll probably miss him. And always just gently prompt
him to go deeper. Gently prompt him to go deeper.
(27:28):
Like what I see is if I had a younger version of me, it would
be, why do you think that way? Is that your thought or is that
somebody else's thought? I'm not going to tell them it's
his somebody else's thought or not.
But just we all know the answersunderneath.
We all know the answers. And I think if we all could act
in an elder way and actually just listen to youth and then
(27:51):
prompt to go deeper. And if you know the answer, you
don't have to tell the answer, you just have to guide.
Because they will find it themselves.
And the moment they find it themselves, them like it would
be more powerful than anything else you could ever have said.
What is one thing you wish more men knew?
(28:12):
That they can talk to other men and they know the Lord.
That whatever pain they feel that they hold, and all of this
being that they are holding is held by other men too.
And it'd be so much lighter if they just did.
Alessandra, what's the best way for people to connect with you?
(28:35):
Learn learn more about everything that you offer.
Instagram Alessandra under scorefor Sally.
And I've got everything through there that's that's the best.
And I throw all of myself into that Instagram accounts, yeah.
Awesome and it is a good one it's not often I'm impressed by
someone's layout on Instagram and on it, but yeah, you're you
(28:55):
do have a great presence there and you've got a ton of
followers so. It's been.
Congratulations on that reach and impact.
Yeah. I mean, it's a it's an important
mission. And I think now's the time in
the world where the world is starting to connect with that
mission. And therefore it's that's why
it's working. Huge thanks and appreciation to
Alessandro Pasali for bringing the fire today, sharing his path
(29:16):
from collapse to true manhood. If anything in this conversation
resonated with you, don't keep it to yourself.
Share it, talk about it. More importantly, take action.
If you're craving a space where you can speak your truth, be
seen, and keep evolving, come join the authentic AF community
at realmanfield.org/group. And it's where the real
(29:37):
conversations continue. Until next time, be good to
yourself.
Now that all of that is fine in an 8 to 10 year old, but if we
start having, you know, men thatwant to be the centre of the
universe, the centre of attention, cannot take
responsibility, you know, cannotrule their emotions and want to
be with a mother, then we start living in a world that's run by
boys rather than men. Hello and welcome to Real Men
Feel. The podcaster reminds men that
they are human too, and that it's not only OK to feel, it's
(00:23):
powerful. I'm your host, Andy Green Today
I'm joined by Alessandro Fasali,a men's coach, retreat leader,
and host of the STFUAL Podcast, which stands for Shut the Fuck
Up and Listen. After hitting rock bottom in his
own marriage, Alessandro committed to a deep journey of
transformation and reclaimed what he calls integrated
manhood. He now helps men step out of boy
(00:45):
like behaviors, reclaim their masculine energy, and lead with
presence in their relationships and lives.
We'll be diving into the difference between boy and man
behavior, the importance of rites of passage, and why elder
wisdom is so crucial in modern life.
And hey, if you're looking for aspace to connect with other men
on the journey of authenticity and growth, join us in the
authentic AF community at realmenfeel.org/group.
(01:09):
It's free, it's real, it's for men like you.
Now let's do it. Hello Alessandra, and welcome to
Real Men Feel. Thank you so much for having me,
Andy. Yeah, we.
So I was on your podcast a little bit ago, so I've been
looking forward to this conversation.
When we spoke early, you talked that there was a turning point
in your marriage when you asked what the fuck is a man?
So can you tell me about? First of all, I would say this
(01:32):
is this turning point sort of pushed me into the the works
that I'm doing now. Essentially, my wife told me
that she wanted to be me to be more of a man or she was
leaving. This came at a certain point in
my life and I basically got so angry enough.
It's like, I am a man. Like, what the fuck do you mean?
Like I have balls? Like what are you talking about?
(01:53):
What that did though for me was it maybe actually have to search
for what that answer meant to me.
You know, that got me on a journey of losing weight.
It got me on a journey of reading.
I think I read literally up to 15 books on what masculinity was
I, I was, I was doing coaching and therapy at the time.
And then also I started working in with rites of passage and I
(02:16):
was already working with them insocial media and I had learnt a
lot more about the making of theman from from them.
And all of these sort of came together and I implemented this
into my marriage and started a men's group as well.
Yeah. All of these things were just
this like perfect storm of all of these things.
And then eventually men started asking me for help.
And so I, I found myself like giving help, you know?
(02:40):
Before that ultimatum, did you feel like you were a man?
Were you that that did that question, that ultimatum
surprise you? I.
Think it did surprise me, but the thing that surprised me the
most is I had never actually given thought to to I guess what
a man was. Maybe that's actually a literal
lie. I actually always thought I was
(03:00):
a little bit more of an effeminate man.
I always thought that I had like, because I was, you know, I
was, I've always been very touch, in touch with feelings,
always been in very touch with creativity, intuition growing
up. And, and I never actually
touched the aspects of masculinity.
And I think a lot of that had todo with the fact that I I was
bullied at school. So I didn't like men.
(03:22):
You know, men kind of seemed threatening to me specifically.
But yeah, I mean, it, it it didn't, it wasn't bad.
I actually really love the fact that I went through that
journey, you know? And and how did that
relationship evolve after that? Was was that a breaking point?
Did you working yourself bring some relief to the relationship
(03:43):
itself? 100 percent, 100% and extra
fact, like our relationship has gone from strength to strength
since then. And I think the real thing about
when a woman asks a man, I need you to be more of a man is
actually not really. It's more to do with her wanting
to be more of a woman and it hasnothing really to do with, you
know, you're not having balls oranything.
(04:04):
It's really about wanting to notfeel like she has to hold so
much. And I think that's what's
happened in our societies is that women actually do have to
hold quite a lot. And they have to hold a lot in,
you know, not only are they, arethey working, you know, full
time often and they're looking after households and, and
they're like looking after the, the, the, the emotional brain on
(04:25):
where a relationship with dogs. And So what I noticed with my
wife was me stepping up to beingmore of a man.
It'd actually be equally described as me stepping
stepping up to be more of an equal partner.
No, I get that a lot. So that's cool.
I didn't realize that relationship was still the one
you're in, so that, that's fantastic.
How long did it take you to see the gift in that ultimatum?
(04:49):
To have these insights that wow,that she wants to be more of
herself, so I must be more of myself.
I took a while that's a gloss for me to see it as a gift.
That's the interesting words there for me to act on it.
I actually started acting on it quite quickly.
But for me to see it as gift probably 2 years.
And in actual fact, it was quitea lonely two years.
And this is the, the reasoning for starting a men's group in
(05:11):
the 1st place is, you know, I think we, it's quite, it's quite
a lonely thing to be emasculated.
The moment you get emasculated, it's, it's pained, it's a lot of
pain. And it's the harshest thing to
have from somebody you love, notcall you a man.
And so it took me a while to seeit as a gift, you know, but I
(05:32):
would say it's three years old up.
You talk a lot about the difference between boy behaviour
and man behaviour. Could you kind of define both of
those for me? Yeah, 100%.
So boy behaviour and man behaviour was some actually some
a really beautiful model by Doctor Anda Rubenstein in his
book The Making of Men. And he's actually a mentor of
(05:54):
mine. So I ended up doing the social
media for, for the rites of passage Institute for for years.
And I would, I would edit their videos.
He would literally be on stages and talk about it and he'd have
this model of 1 to 1. And and so interestingly, in my
journey, when I was like, what makes a man along it?
I stopped and, and I, I was likewatching a video and it's
(06:16):
literally in front of my face. This is a boy and this is a man.
So I'll share exactly what that model was.
But it was, it was just funny. Like that was the ironic thing.
It was like, I'm here looking for all these answers outside
and then it's literally my job to edit somebody's video for who
actually gives you exactly what a man is.
And so the first thing is talking about boy behaviours.
(06:39):
So if we talk about boy behaviours, this is uninitiated
men. So boys, a boy is a centre like
wants to be the centre of attention, wants to be the
centre of the universe, wants tobe like, look at me, look at me.
It's like even when you go to the toilet, it's like, oh, look
at the big poo. I did you know, or you know
anything, Just look at me, look at me centre of the universe.
(07:01):
A boy does not take responsibility for their
actions. So when something goes wrong,
like almost a boy would, even ifthey're playing baseball out in
the backyard and they hit a balland it hits the glass in in in a
house and breaks the glass, A boy would be like they would
almost even blame the ball, the shape of the ball as the thing
(07:23):
that broke the glass. Not then, right?
Doesn't take responsibility. The next thing is has no
emotional control. Boys don't aren't able to
emotionally control themselves and the boy in the end just
wants a mother, doesn't want a healthy relationship with the
feminine. Now that all of that is fine in
(07:44):
an 8 to 10 year old, but if we start having, you know, men that
want to be the centre of the universe, the centre of
attention, cannot take responsibility, you know, cannot
rule their emotions and want to be with a mother, then we start
living in a world that's from boys rather than men.
And so how we shift that insteadof wanting centre to be the
centre of attention is wanting power, wanting attention, but
(08:07):
using that for the community, using that for, for service.
That's, that's the, the healthy male version from the boy to
that. Then we're talking about
responsibility. It's taking responsibility for
when you do things wrong. It's not to be capitulating and
going, oh, I'm so sorry and begging their way through it.
But to be really strong, strong enough to go, yeah, I, I screwed
(08:28):
that up. That's on me and fix it, you
know, like that's that's the thethat's a really clear transition
from boy to man. Then holding emotions.
So it's not about and this is great for your podcast here is
it's not about not being vulnerable, but it's about being
controlling of emotions. Men do not need to throw
tantrums. It's you know, if something's
(08:50):
wrong, it's not you can't share it and you you can't be
vulnerable about it. But we cannot punish somebody in
the street. We cannot get to anger to the
point where it's like I cannot control this and I need to burst
it out. That's boy behaviour and when we
have boy behaviour in strong menbodies, it's dangerous.
(09:11):
So again, controlling emotion needs to happen.
That clarification important because I meet lots of guys who
hear messages like this and think controlling their emotions
means shutting them all down, denying them all, not feeling
them. No, it's just being more in
control of how and when they're expressed.
Exactly. So it's not losing the
vulnerability. You want to be as vulnerable as
(09:32):
possible, but control the emotion so that it doesn't
control you because you need to like feel the feel the emotion,
but don't be led by the emotion.That's where that it comes from.
And if you find yourself literally not being able to do
anything other than what the emotion is.
So if you're in sadness and thatsadness leads you to the
(09:54):
ultimate point of where sadness leads you, that's just, that's
not holding the emotion because there was no space given to it
earlier. You know, it's that's no
controlling of it. It's not even giving it space.
That's where shutdown comes. I'm really resonating with the
responsibility. So for years I shunned
responsibility because I thoughtthat meant blame.
(10:16):
So it wasn't until I realized I can't change anything in my life
unless I take responsibility forit.
I think that's a big key. So it's not about whose fault is
it, it's about who can change it.
Yeah, I think The thing is, and that's one thing we always
forget is, and you see this in boy behaviour a lot, it's like
blame. It's not fair.
It's not fair that I that, that somebody else is telling me
(10:38):
this. It's not fair.
And it's like, well, if we understand that the sooner we
take responsibility even for things that are not ours, the
sooner we can change it because we can.
If we take responsibility even for something that's not ours,
we even take responsibility. We take responsibility of how we
react to it and it puts you in control.
If you do not take responsibility, you do not have
(11:01):
any control over your life. We turn into victims.
You know, this person did that thing to me.
So even that it's like the most horrible thing can happen to
you. But if you go into that, it
starts going victim and you you put yourself in no sense of
being somebody that can actuallyhave control of your own life.
And for it to live a happy life,we need to take more of control.
(11:24):
And so then the final thing about the boy to man model is
wanting a relationship with the feminine, not a mother.
And so you often will tell, likeboy behaviour is, you know,
being scared of a woman's period, being scared of like,
thinking it's disgusting, not understanding the chaos of what
a woman is and having to run away from it at every point.
(11:45):
You know, to be able to genuinely sit in the fire of
what a woman is and still love her anyway and all of that.
That is that is where the the you know, that's the the
transition. It's not just wanting to have
nurturing from your mother and make sure you're soon done all
of this. It's having a a new conscious
relationship in whatever form that is.
(12:07):
Now that doesn't have to be onlywomen.
It can be a conscious relationship with men.
It's it's not about a man is is in sexuality, but it's more not
taking the unconscious of the parent wounds through to a new
relationship and actually consciously getting away from
the parents. And that's the thing.
(12:28):
So obviously in the in the it's not as as inclusive in that old
man only when we only talk mother wound, but it happens
with father wound too, whenever we make conscious decisions,
rather unconscious decisions within our new relationships.
And so that's the whole model. Are there some men that grew up
in such a healthy environment they don't have a father wound
or a mother wound? Probably not.
(12:52):
I mean, probably. Well.
Actually, no, I, I take that back.
Actually, I take that back. It's to those points.
There is always things to deal with with your parents.
There are always going to be things to deal with, but whether
they become a wound or not is actually the interesting thing
here. So even when you, when you have
the most loving parents and you have parents that because I, I'm
(13:15):
very consciously thinking about this myself, because we're
thinking of becoming parents ourselves truer in me.
And I haven't tested this yet, you know, so I haven't got kids
yet. So I can't tell you
definitively. But my theory is this.
The best we can do is to raise achild to, to understand that
they can be exactly who they need to be and who they are and
(13:37):
that the blueprint of themselvesis within.
And that even if they had to leave the family and go, that
that would be OK as long as theywere listening to themselves.
And if you could actually get tothat point and actually not hurt
them and actually allow them space for who they are and, and
gross in all of this way it is. And then also naturally go
(13:58):
through the right of passage processes, like the mother being
the main caregiver for a boy until like 1214.
But then the boy spends quite a bit of time with the father and
understands his father, but thenalso has male mentors and then
goes through a rite of passage and goes on his way.
It is entirely plausible that that child would get to all of
that and don't have a wound. And then they would just have to
(14:22):
deal with the fact that they're different from their parents and
maybe they would have a little bit of competition with their
father and maybe they would havea little bit of another.
I got a little bit clingy, but I'm actually good, you know, and
I can let that go. And they have to deal with
attachments and detachments and things like that.
So it doesn't have to be a wound, but we live in a world
where I would say 95% of 95% is Williams because they they're
(14:45):
not treated at the time, they'retreated much later.
And that's the problem. They're not treated at the time.
So no, you you already mentionedinitiation.
So why? Why are rites of passage and
initiation so important for men?Well, it's important for
everyone, but specifically for men is is because we all want to
(15:06):
belong in somewhere, right? So in after a fact, most of our
behaviour comes from wanting to belong.
The unfortunate thing is that ifwe want to belong somewhere, if
we don't have the right of passage or initiation, then we
need to actually break down whata right of passage or an
initiation is, especially in a modern sense.
(15:27):
In a past sense, you know, we just look at it like 50 kids go
out into the wilderness with unfold men and then they they go
and kill a lion. OK, so that that, you know,
could be part of what rite of passage is.
But there are four key stages ofa rite of passage.
A rite of passages, sharing stories.
You share stories with elders and elders sharing stories to
(15:47):
young people allows them the elders to give wisdom and it
allows the young people to get to also to get the wisdom and it
gives the elders some purpose. So it's actually a rite of
passage for both elder and youngpeople, right?
It's this beautiful thing and sothey, the young people get the
stories and they get informed bythat.
That's fantastic. The second part of a rite of
passage is the challenge and this is answers your question.
(16:10):
It's important for men specifically as a challenge
because we're geared towards challenge.
Men like grow through challenge.They get their sense of
self-confidence through challenge.
They get their sense of community through challenge.
Challenge is the thing that likebuilds them up.
The third aspect of our rite of passage is honouring and my
mentor in, in, in Doctor Anna Rubenstein through this, you
(16:32):
know he, he has taken 400,000 young boys and their fathers
into the Australian woods to do these rite of passage camps.
And the ordering bit is where they would set up a chair and
the boy would go and sit in the chair after the five days and
every single man and boy would say what is great about that
(16:52):
young boy? Where, where do they see his
brilliance? Where do they see his talents?
Because there's this belief thatevery single one of us have
gifts and talents. And if you see this, then it's
it's your responsibility to bring your own gifts and talents
to the community. And it's the community's
responsibility to help you see your own gifts and talents.
(17:12):
And that's the self-serving thing of the community and and
the self. And so in a rite of passage, you
have this honouring moment wheresomebody actually, maybe for the
first time in their life, they feel like they actually have
worse. They have worse.
And in the final bit, the final aspect, the 4th aspect of a rite
of passage is creating a healthyvision for the future.
(17:34):
And healthy vision for the future means that we actually
succeed. Studies have shown that, you
know, you're 70% more likely to even achieve something just by
writing it down, you know, And so when we talk about why is it
essential for people to have a rite of passage, well, this was
this was actually a practice that most humanity had and we no
(17:56):
longer have. And if you look at all of those
things, most of our issues in life would be solved by just
having those four things within a five day period.
And so that's why rites of passenger really important,
really important. There's one of the, I had, I had
a magical year of 2016 in which I was initiated with the Mankind
(18:18):
Project, initiated purely from boyhood to manhood.
And I was initiated into the Modern Mystery School that same
year. And there are two things I
recommend to everybody. But I didn't realize they were
missing and until I had them. So I, I love these 4 breakdowns
of, of what really makes up a rite of passage because I do,
you know, I do hear it a lot. But what's the biggest sign that
(18:40):
you see in men today that they have not had any sort of
initiation? What's What's the behavior?
A boy like behavior, Yeah. Boiler behaviour so.
So if you, yeah, if you find yourself not being able to
emotionally connect, wanting responsibility, like wanting
power or emotional shutdown or separation from task.
So one thing that I see in in the space where I work, like I
(19:04):
work in the marriage space at the moment.
So my space is truly in helping men become better husbands.
And that's why like the retreat that I'm the right of passage
retreat I'm running next year isall about helping husbands be
initiated into their husband because we we get this like you
think you're initiated by just signing a piece of paper, but
you have no idea what that actually means.
(19:24):
What did you actually take that on?
And so I think the biggest symbol sign that you see in men
today is not understanding the task.
When you are married, you signedon to the task of teamwork
community. That's your community, that's
your center right. And if you start seeing like a
man looking at his wife as the enemy, if you start seeing a man
(19:46):
look at the community as an enemy, if you start seeing a man
look at yeah, like things as enemies, he's completely
separate from community. And this was the other thing I
didn't mention earlier. I spoke about communities
earlier. We want community.
And then I talked about the fourstages of a rite of passage.
And what I missed was if we don't find alpha community like
(20:07):
this. In a rite of passage and you
know, you get the elders and youget the sense of belonging to
your family. If you don't find that, you will
find unhealthy community becausewe as humans need community.
And so if you don't find a healthy community, you will find
an unhealthy community. And that is the problem with not
having it. And so that even comes here to
(20:28):
this. If you start seeing men in
unhealthy communities, it just means they've not been
initiated. Really a healthy community.
No, that makes a lot of sense. Alessandra, what inspired you to
create your podcast STFUAL? Come on Andy, say it, say it
properly, shut the fuck up and listen.
(20:52):
Well, initially it was this whole idea of helping men
eradicate boy like behaviour andmove to to healthy adult
behaviour. And I believe it is that.
But upon, you know, 20 episodes in and I think as things sort
of, I realized that my whole purpose on this earth and my
wife is the same. We share the same purpose.
(21:14):
I want to bring people into loveand unity.
I truly believe that we have forces within our society that
separate U.S. forces within our society that that it it's very
beneficial for society to have us not be within love, not be
within connection, not be not bewithin unity of community and
(21:36):
with your partner. And if I can make men
specifically, that's who I'm targeting because that's who I
am and that's who I know. And I know my journey and I just
speak to the men that are along the same journey as me, if I can
help them be their partner in a different lighting and more
loving light as a teammate and if I can help more loving
(21:57):
community, that's what I do. So everything I do when there's
the podcast, my coaching treats,the the Instagram stuff, my
emails, all of it just follows that.
I just want to make more love and community in this world.
Is there a specific tool, book, or practice that had the most
impact on your journey? I wouldn't say a specific, but I
(22:21):
would say a result which you canget from many different ways and
you have to find the right way for you.
The number one way that you are ever going to move forward
within this is to understand andknow yourself.
And so whatever that tool is, soa lot of people say OK, the best
(22:42):
tool to know yourself is meditation.
But that has that very high buy in because people would rather
people would rather take a Valium than than meditate,
right. So meditation has a very high
buy in. So it's difficult for people to
do that. Breath work is a really
beautiful way to not start knowing and understanding
yourself. But again, pretty high buy in
because you have to listen to some weird half spiritual dude,
(23:06):
you know, telling you to breathein through your belly.
I don't like to do that. It sounds a bit woo woo, little
bit gay for me. That's what most men would say.
And and so again, high buy in, what I really like is, I mean,
my favorite is like, I really dolike psilocybin mushroom trips
sometimes. Like I do think that they really
get there. But again, very high buy in
(23:27):
because then you've got whole ideas on, you know, whether
illegal or not and, and the whole world of this.
But I think that for a man who'sreally wanting to have the
lowest buy in, I would try something on a stream of
consciousness writing. So get yourself an A four piece
of paper. I literally do this with every
one of my coaching clients. And the first homework I get
(23:47):
them to do is buy an exercise book, the the shittiest exercise
book you can something like 90 cent one for, for, you know,
school. And every morning you have
forced it's it's Saturday with Julia Cameron's the morning
pages. She has this in the hardest way,
but I think it's beautiful for men to do because what you have
(24:08):
to do is you have to fill 3 pages and those 3 pages have to
be a force and has to be handwritten.
And this is great for men who say, Oh well, I don't know what
to write, perfect. You just write.
I don't know what to write, I don't know what to write.
And you keep writing it. It's the screen of consciousness
until you reach the end of threepages.
But the interesting thing is theego will tell you this is a
(24:31):
terrible activity. I hate this.
Screw this. You know, man, on a podcast who
told me you have to do this, This is fucking awful, blah,
blah, blah. It'll remind that for one page,
the second page, you'll start writing your To Do List for the
day. And then the third page, if you
turn your car. I'm upset right now because I've
(24:52):
never been home and all of a sudden, oh, there's me, there's
me. So yeah, all these other methods
that have very high buy in, I think they're brilliant.
And if you want to jump into themeditation breathword mushrooms,
you know, the cow ceremonies, whatever, they're very good.
But if you want the lowest buy in, go into journaling Stream of
Consciousness Friday. So I really, I can't be sure
(25:14):
which came first, but I met it. I took on meditation and
journaling about the same time. But yeah, I, I always advise
people to, to journaling exercises, meditation.
And you know, meditation can be as simple as, you know, shut
your eyes and take 3 deep breaths.
It doesn't mean crush your legs.Go sit in a mountaintop for an
hour and a half like it, it, youknow, we, we cannot speak for
myself, I put all these woo woo gay practices way up and
(25:37):
impossible to reach until I was sick of being in so much pain
that I wanted to die, that I waswilling to be wrong about
everything I thought and try something.
And I found when I tried things that were perhaps too woo woo or
too weird or out there, I got results.
And that's glad you said it was key earlier.
The the results are are what arewhat everyone needs.
(26:01):
Well, I think on my podcast, yousaid something beautiful.
Do you want to be sad or do you want to be happy?
And in the end, it's like there's a certain point where,
yeah, you do just buy in. Like I think you, I think you
have to be called to attune yourmethod.
Like there's a certain, there's a certain mystery to life, which
I love. There's a certain magic to life
(26:23):
where you might say I'm ready, I'm open, but I don't know how.
Life has a wonderful way of within seven days, it'll show
you the path forward. Ask and it is given.
It'll show you like all of a sudden someone will be like,
have you ever tried like breath work?
(26:44):
There's a thing on tomorrow night.
Do you want to come with me? And you'll be like, well, like I
just asked for something like, that's weird.
It's that sort of thing. There's the synchronicities in
this energy of the way that lifeworks, which I think is we
cannot understate that. Oh, like yeah, that's the the
core of it. Going back to Elder wisdom, if
(27:06):
you could talk directly to your younger self, what would you
tell that young man? I.
Don't think I would tell him anything.
You'll probably miss him. And always just gently prompt
him to go deeper. Gently prompt him to go deeper.
(27:28):
Like what I see is if I had a younger version of me, it would
be, why do you think that way? Is that your thought or is that
somebody else's thought? I'm not going to tell them it's
his somebody else's thought or not.
But just we all know the answersunderneath.
We all know the answers. And I think if we all could act
in an elder way and actually just listen to youth and then
(27:51):
prompt to go deeper. And if you know the answer, you
don't have to tell the answer, you just have to guide.
Because they will find it themselves.
And the moment they find it themselves, them like it would
be more powerful than anything else you could ever have said.
What is one thing you wish more men knew?
(28:12):
That they can talk to other men and they know the Lord.
That whatever pain they feel that they hold, and all of this
being that they are holding is held by other men too.
And it'd be so much lighter if they just did.
Alessandra, what's the best way for people to connect with you?
(28:35):
Learn learn more about everything that you offer.
Instagram Alessandra under scorefor Sally.
And I've got everything through there that's that's the best.
And I throw all of myself into that Instagram accounts, yeah.
Awesome and it is a good one it's not often I'm impressed by
someone's layout on Instagram and on it, but yeah, you're you
(28:55):
do have a great presence there and you've got a ton of
followers so. It's been.
Congratulations on that reach and impact.
Yeah. I mean, it's a it's an important
mission. And I think now's the time in
the world where the world is starting to connect with that
mission. And therefore it's that's why
it's working. Huge thanks and appreciation to
Alessandro Pasali for bringing the fire today, sharing his path
(29:16):
from collapse to true manhood. If anything in this conversation
resonated with you, don't keep it to yourself.
Share it, talk about it. More importantly, take action.
If you're craving a space where you can speak your truth, be
seen, and keep evolving, come join the authentic AF community
at realmanfield.org/group. And it's where the real
(29:37):
conversations continue. Until next time, be good to
yourself.
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