August 22, 2025 • 28 mins
Exploring Vulnerability: Nick Jonsson on Executive Loneliness and Mental Health
In this episode of Real Men Feel, host Andy Grant talks with Nick Jonsson, a TEDx speaker, bestselling author, and mental health advocate. Nick shares his personal struggles with loneliness and isolation despite outward success, his battle with alcoholism, and how hitting rock bottom led him to ask for help. They discuss the stigma around male vulnerability, the unique pressures facing high-achieving men, and practical steps to foster emotional honesty both personally and professionally. Nick emphasizes the importance of creating safe spaces for men to open up and the need for cultural shifts in how masculinity is perceived.
00:00 Introduction and Personal Struggles
00:24 Welcome to Real Men Feel
00:34 Meet Nick Johnson
01:20 Nick's Journey Through Loneliness and Isolation
02:40 The Struggles of High-Achieving Men
04:06 The Turning Point and Asking for Help
05:47 The Role of Men's Groups
06:57 Sobriety and Its Impact
09:43 Challenges of Male Executives
15:23 Cultural Differences in Expressing Loneliness
25:04 The Importance of Belonging
27:12 Conclusion and Final Thoughts
Connect with Nick
Nick Jonsson — https://www.nickjonsson.com/
LinkedIn — https://sg.linkedin.com/in/nick-jonsson
Instagram — https://www.instagram.com/jonssonnick/
Resources
Executive Loneliness by Nick Jonsson — https://amzn.to/4mmFqrA
Connect with Andy and the Real Men Feel Podcast:
Join me and connect with other like-minded men in the
Authentic AF Community | http://realmenfeel.org/group
Instagram | @realmenfeelshow & @theandygrant
Andy Grant Website | https://theandygrant.com for coaching, healing, and book info!
Real Men Feel Website | http://realmenfeel.org
YouTube | https://youtube.com/realmenfeel
#RealMenFeel ep 367
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
When I had so much pain and whenI was so sick and tired of being
sick and tired that I started toask for help and and it's at
that moment where everything changed do.
You think we can ever get to a aplace, a society, a time that
men don't need to hit rock bottom?
That we don't need to be in so much pain before we raise that
(00:20):
hand tip for help. I really hope so, Andy.
Hello, Welcome to Real Men Field.
I'm your host Andy Green. This is the show where we
explore the evolving face of masculinity and what it means to
be authentic, open and fully alive for men today.
Today I'm joined by Nick Johnson, a Ted X speaker #1
International best selling author and a leading voice on
(00:41):
executive mental health and maleisolation.
Nick knows first hand how success on the outside can hide
deep loneliness on the inside. In our conversation, we dive
into the hidden struggles of high performing men, the stigma
around vulnerability, how we canall build a more connected,
emotionally honest lives. And if you crave more real
connection with other men, checkout Authentic AF, my free online
(01:05):
community at realmenfield.org/group.
You don't have to go it alone, let's do it.
Hello Nick, and welcome to Real Men Field.
Thank you so much and it's greatto be here.
So, Nick, I really got to start with your start What, What in
your life prompted you to speak so openly about loneliness and
(01:28):
isolation for men? Well, it was out of desperation,
actually. I went through a very nasty
divorce, 2015 to 18, and I grinded through that in
isolation myself. And then I hit rock bottom and
it's from there. I sort of came out of the ashes
and rebuilt my life. So you had a successful life,
(01:49):
career, status, all the outwardsvisibility of success.
So what was going on inside you during those darkest times?
Yeah, I would say that, you know, I was in a job that
perhaps was a bit bigger than I was ready for.
I had pushed really hard. I wanted the promotions, I
wanted the bonuses and everything else, and I pushed
(02:10):
for it. But I wasn't open, I wasn't
vulnerable about the part, the parts of the job where I fell
short. I was doing really well in
business development, in the sales and so on.
But the back office, the numbersand so on, I wasn't on top of.
But I was too scared to ask my boss for help there.
And that eventually led me to making some mistakes and
(02:31):
eventually my resignation from ajob that I loved and a place
where I should have stayed if I had to.
Had to got to ask for help. Why do you think so many high
achieving men in particular struggle with vulnerability and
asking for help? Yeah, it's a great question,
Andy, and it's something that I,I keep asking myself as well,
(02:53):
because in that particular job, I actually knew the boss very
well. I was home at her place on
Sundays having barbecues. You know, we were quite open
with ourselves and she was also hiring me twice in my life.
So we had a very good open relationship.
However, I focused the conversations on making sure
that I look good. I focused on impressing her and
(03:15):
making sure that she felt comfortable knowing that I had
her back, that there was no problems with me.
So I just didn't feel safe to open up and and asking for help.
Instead, I tried to impress her and I did the same behaviour
with a mentor. I had.
A mentor also had ten years moreexperience than me in the
company and I did the same with him.
I tried to impress him, making sure that, you know, I would get
(03:37):
the next promotion, that I wouldget the bonuses.
And again, I was too scared to open up to him about the
challenges. I thought that maybe if I'd
share this, then maybe I'm not going to get the next role,
which is I want. And I think it's also an issue
of how society is set up becauseI really elbowed my way sort of
up the corporate ladder and everyone is playing the game and
(03:57):
no one actually, or my colleagues even was vulnerable.
So it's the, at least in the companies I worked, it was the
company culture that was set up for this.
So what finally happened then had you crack open and share
yourself? Yeah, it, it was only after I
had resigned and after I had resigned from the job, people
(04:17):
start to ask me, you know, Nick,why did you resign from this
job? You're doing well and so on.
And I didn't give them any honest answers.
It was due to my insecurities because I start to have panic
attacks thinking that I'd done something wrong, but in truth
that it was the the challenges of my insecurities that led to
resignation, nothing else. But I didn't want to share that.
(04:38):
So I said I'm paying that I'm going to start up my own
business, I'm going to invest insome startups and so on.
And I painted this picture. And once I've then found myself
outside of this paid job, yes, Idid invest my money, but it also
was poorly invested and I lost everything and I almost ended up
bankrupt. And then due to that also filed
for divorce for my ex-wife. We had a marriage of 13 years
(05:01):
and when she started to questionme, I wasn't ready for any
conversation. So if that was how it was going
to be then I filed for a divorce.
That's easier than explain myself.
And then I basically for three years just jumped from job to
job and kept failing everything and drinking more, gaining more
weight until I found myself basically at what I call rock
(05:21):
bottom. And it's from there when I had
so much pain and when I was so sick and tired of being sick and
tired that I started to ask for help.
And and it's at that moment where everything changed do.
You think we can ever get to a place, a society, a time that
men don't need to hit rock bottom?
That we don't need to be in so much pain before we raise that
(05:44):
hand tip for help. I really hope so, Andy and I, I
know that you're also talking about men and you're talking
about the men to be more open and so on and creating safe
spaces. And that's something that I do
in my part of the world as well.I spend most of my time in
Southeast Asia. I run a men's group where we
share and we practice to being more open and vulnerable.
(06:07):
We practice getting some trust between US and we can build up
these these vulnerabilities in normal times.
It doesn't have to be when it's a big life crisis.
One example of this in my men's group now, there's one man who
just lost his mother this week. And of course it's heartbreaking
for him. But he says thanks to him being
(06:28):
part of this group for 3-4 months where he already sort of
opened up, he is now opening up.He's sharing with me, he's
sharing with the men's group, he's sharing with his wife, he's
sharing with his sister. He's talking more not only about
the logistics but also his feelings and acknowledging the
feelings of others. So I do believe we can do that.
We need to be proactive and we need to have these safe spaces
(06:50):
and offer them an encouragement to learn to speak about their
their feelings. Yeah, I couldn't agree more.
And I, I, I know sobriety was a big part of your journey.
So how did getting sober reshapeperhaps your your approach to
leadership and even masculinity itself?
Yeah, so sobriety is is a big thing in my life.
(07:11):
It's almost like my second birthday.
That of course, it's really a different way of living for me.
And it's twofold. Firstly, then I actually learnt
the, the, the to ask for help through one or the 12 step
programmes which is set up for that, where you then get support
by someone who's been there before.
And it is in those rooms that for the first time in my life, I
(07:34):
heard men being there was women there as well in some of the
meetings, some were men's groupsonly.
But when people actually were honest, they spoke about their
challenges, the mistakes, the failures of their life without
shame and guilt. And I start to feel safe to then
take ownership for my my mistakes in my life, the issues
(07:54):
that I had been facing and what have happened to me.
And step by step, I start to share.
So that was really what happenedthen that I started to open up.
That was the one thing. The second thing of course,
being more physically and mentally health and emotionally
healthy has made a huge impact on my life as well.
Yeah, I know. In my experience, for me, what
(08:14):
what made me open and share morewas that the first time I did do
that, I wasn't mocked. People didn't run away.
You know, that was my biggest fear.
If someone knew how badly I feltthat they would just, they would
just flee, they'd run for the hills.
So is that the, is that kind of was that one of the powers of of
a men's group giving you that, that practice that you mentioned
earlier? Yeah, absolutely.
(08:34):
And in the men's group typicallywe perhaps share what is most
challenging one-on-one first. And these days also, I'm, I'm a
coach and a mentor, some of the men, so some of them might have
a one-on-one conversation with them first, prepare them and get
them to practice and be comfortable just sharing with
me. And then typically I ask them if
there's someone else in their family or someone closer than
(08:56):
they can share it with. Perhaps it's a friend, perhaps
it's a wife or a brother and a sister that they can share
whatever challenge they're goingthrough and talk about it.
And once they've done that, perhaps they then over a week
have spoken to 2-3 people. Then on the next manuscript
meeting, we have a say. We do be ready now to share
that. And that's typically how it
goes. It's a quite a big step for
(09:17):
someone who perhaps is new into men's group to come in and share
some of the biggest challenges they're facing if they haven't
done that before. And that is more common than
not. I would say the most men that
I'm facing and most are Europeans of from America, but
working as experts in Asia, that's my circle and they have
perhaps moved away from the family and then keeping the
(09:40):
distance and not used to being open and vulnerable with them.
So what are some other unique pressures and challenges that
male executives have that that most people probably don't
realize? Yeah, I, I believe, you know,
being an executive can be quite lonely, especially these days.
There's so many changes in the workplace, there's so many
(10:02):
insecurities, there's so much disruptions, and therefore you
never feel safe. So that is the biggest issue I
believe in in with today's work.Gone are the days when you work
30 years for a company and get agold watch.
You always got to watch your back.
And I think that drives that kind of mentality that I had
also that I wasn't vulnerable. I was just making sure that I
(10:25):
was succeeding and I kept it very tight and and clean and
tidy. But behind the the scene, things
were falling apart. And that is what I see with
many, many leaders. They look solid, they look
strong, they look like they haveit all together.
But when you actually ask them, but then there's just so much at
stake. Maybe they have loans and
everything else on house, cars and then they have children in
(10:47):
schools. They got to pay for all of this.
And if they lose the job, not only do they lose the job, but
perhaps they have to pull the children out of the school they
are in. Maybe they have to sell the
house and downgrade to an apartment.
And I've seen so many families then falling apart with divorces
as well. And then comes perhaps coping
mechanisms and addictions into that.
(11:09):
And then it's the full circle. So you have kind of lived life
from both sides from wearing themask.
Let anyone think you're you're fine.
Everything's going great and andall or should say oh sound like
many of your interactions at work.
We're focused on what you presented and you've had the
experience of being open and vulnerable, and either of those,
(11:31):
did life become easier? Yes, certainly.
I mean, when you're trying to doit all yourself, when you're
putting all the bets on yourself, then it's very, very
challenging. You have no rooms for errors.
Everything has to be perfect. And that's why perhaps we work
ourselves, you know, 2 long hours, weekends, sacrificing
(11:51):
work over everything. Maybe also, you know, not
becoming too close to any friends and colleagues.
That means you isolate yourself in the workplace and that has a
lot of downsides there. Then on the other side of it, my
life now, having learnt first inthe recovery program to ask for
help and being vulnerable there,I have brought that across to
(12:13):
the other sides of my life. And one example is in triathlon,
the sport I did before where youswim, cycle and run.
I was mediocre there and I struggled and sometimes I didn't
even show up to the start of therace.
These days though, I I fully embraced it and I said, well,
what about if I apply the same mentality as I did for my other
(12:33):
areas of my life when I recovered into the sport?
Which means signing up for a club, having a tribe where I
have other people who do the same sport, getting a coach,
someone who give me a training plan, someone who can mentor me
and show me how to do it properly.
And I've done all of that for the last few years and I'm
truly, truly enjoying the sport,getting better, but most
(12:55):
importantly also feel completelysocially connected rather than
isolated. Nice.
What? What can the workplace do?
What what can corporate environments do to combat this
sense of of isolation? I think the best is to lead by
example. They just have to be a bit
vulnerable and open themselves. And that doesn't mean that we
(13:17):
have to come in and share all our secrets and challenges in
the office. That's not what it's about.
But it's about taking ownership,perhaps for some of the
insecurities and failures and being open with the team.
And in my case, then, where I should have been open was that
I'm not very good at Numbers, I'm not very good at Microsoft
Excel. We were bidding for a lot of
(13:39):
projects. Things were moving very fast.
I couldn't really keep up. If I would have been vulnerable
about that, I don't think anyonewould have judged me.
But it's another thing coming inand sharing, you know, some
major personal problems we have.Maybe we can keep that to a
men's group or to a therapist orcoach and working on those
insecurities or to our friends outside the workplace.
(14:00):
But there's certainly some things that you should be
vulnerable with inside the workplace.
And that is as soon as you feel that this is overwhelming, I'm
not really sure about this, thenthink about who can you ask for
help? And that's a good distinction to
make because, yeah, we're not encouraging, We're not
suggesting, man, you should be crying in meetings and be all
(14:21):
over the place and be an emotional mess.
But I find that if you don't share all of you somewhere, then
you're more likely to have that kind of that public breakdown
and all the emotions that we compressed will eventually come
out of us. Yeah, absolutely.
And in my case, I wasn't ready to face it.
So I rather resigned from that job, which was something I was
(14:43):
thinking about for about one year.
I drafted my resignation letter about six months before I handed
it in because I shouldn't actually have resigned from that
job. I was doing a good job in 95% of
my role. I was doing really great, but it
was those insecurities that killed me and I just to the
point where I, I couldn't hold it together.
(15:03):
And that's an expensive learningthat I, I just hope that I never
have in any situation. It doesn't matter if it's a
relationship or if it's a workplace or something we do.
We got to think and ask yourselves, am I feeling OK
here? And if not, who can I talk to
about this? So you have an international
clientele it sounds like. Do you see cultural differences
(15:25):
around the world in how men bothexpress loneliness and hide it?
Yeah, I would say in Asia then Iwould say that Asians are even
more closed than us Westerners. We might be a little bit more
outspoken. I see that in everything from
the 12 step programs and so on. You know, there's just so much
(15:47):
stigma to show up and to even admit that you have some issues
or challenges in Asia. So they are hiding even deeper.
So that's why for myself, them working in that part of the
world in the region, I got to bea role model by showing up and
and sharing what happens when wedo share.
And that's what I did in my bookExecutive Loneliness, where I
interviewed executives and leaders and entrepreneurs mainly
(16:11):
in Southeast Asia about their isolation and feelings and so
on. And then what happens on the
other side when we do open up. So I think there's a long way to
go, definitely a very long way to go also in Asia.
But otherwise it's the same feelings of isolation.
If you're in a workplace where you don't share and ask for
help, then it it doesn't matter where in the world you are,
(16:31):
you're going to feel lonely. Right.
No matter where you go, there you are.
So about the book Executive loneliness, what?
What's been the most surprising or meaningful reaction you've
gotten to the book? Well, I wrote it, you know, when
about one year into my recovery.So I was already feeling quite
well at that time. I was one year sober.
(16:53):
I lost the weight and I had dealt with my issues.
I worked with a coach, I spoke to therapist and and all these
kind of things have been happening.
But then something happened thatchanged my life and triggered me
to write a book and that was that.
I sadly lost a friend of mine tosuicide, a man from the UK who
worked in Singapore at the time,someone who I worked with and
(17:15):
someone who I thought had it alltogether.
But when he was gone, I was so sad, heartbroken and also I felt
that if only I knew that something was going on.
And then I start to think about asking myself the question, you
know, how close was I to this? Because at my lowest point, I
wrote my will, I wrote my testament.
(17:37):
And I basically start to plan for my own funeral.
I wasn't suicidal, but I couldn't see in the future.
I didn't have any hope. I didn't really care if I would
wake up or not. So that's the sort of Gray zone
of life I was in. But then having come out of it
one year feeling much better looking back at it, that's when
I realised we, there's a lot of work to be done here.
(18:00):
And that's when I opened up fully.
I made a LinkedIn post at the time that went viral where I
signed up for suicide preventionagency as a founder and
volunteer to reduce the stigma of them asking for help and, and
suicide prevention. And at that stage, then a lot of
media exposure happened. I was on live TV, radio, there
(18:21):
was newspaper articles from all around the world coming in.
And with that, then everyone said the same thing, Nick, you
got to write a book about this. So that's what I did.
And the biggest surprise was, I think how well it's received and
how good it's selling still today, four years after its
release. You mentioned that line that I,
I say in here often of I thoughtI had it all together and and I
(18:44):
find that that's that's the biggest mask that men wear.
I'll get it all figured out. Everything's fine.
Don't ask me anything. And it just keeps that, it keeps
that false distance between US and everybody that that could
make our life but even better. How do you think we might help
more men drop that mask? I think what you're doing today
(19:06):
here, Andy with me that to be having this open conversation,
the fact that we talked about it, where we've been and others
been and how it can go. Because ultimately, if we don't
have this conversation, then we might end up like Simon, my
friend who died of suicide. And sadly, it's all too common.
We all have lost friends when itcomes to this.
So that is what lies at the end of it.
(19:27):
If we don't talk about it then but keep speaking about it, keep
showing up like you and I do today having these
conversations. And for anyone who's listening,
you know, think about if you, who can you talk to?
Is that someone in your life whoyou can be honest and vulnerable
with about your challenges? And if not, think about who can
you talk to? Because then there are coaches,
(19:48):
there are therapists, there are also all these help lines and
hotlines. And what I found was that
alcohol was my challenge. And it was a wonderful world of
recovery all around the world around that.
But what I know now know is thatit's equal as good if someone is
struggling with gambling. Or drugs, or if there's any
(20:10):
social media addictions, food addictions, sugar addiction, all
of these issues, Someone else has been there before and have
these issues. And I even found out now that
they even have these 12 step programs for people who are
facing bankruptcy or someone whomight be having a company that
is going bankrupt. Because then the stigma of
discussing for that and sharing that is something that's
(20:32):
difficult. You even have these programs and
they don't charge. These are volunteer programs,
help where people are giving back and helping, so there's
some support for everyone there to speak up.
Yeah, and you know, long time listeners, people who know me
know this, but I'm a survivor ofmultiple suicide attempts in in
my teens and 20s. And you know, it's a lesson I
(20:53):
needed. But that's why, that's why I, I
came out of the emotional closetthen and trying to combat the
stigma on this, because men shouldn't have to face the end
of their life to decide that, OK, I'm supposed to be here,
right? I find that, you know, our life
is meant to be joyous. It's meant to be exciting.
(21:13):
It's meant to be seen in his adventure.
So now when I, when I think thatguy's get it all together, I
remind myself, Oh, a lot of people say that about me.
So anytime I think that I'm like, it's probably not true
somewhere in his life. And that's OK.
In fact, that's a good thing. We all have areas that we can
grow. And if, if, if we didn't, I
don't think we'd still be here. Yeah, absolutely.
(21:36):
And I, I, I, I so resonate with what you're saying because many
of the coaching clients I have now or I would say the majority
of them are very well off. Perhaps they are CE OS of big
companies. So they've done really well
financially for themselves. On the outside, everything looks
absolutely perfect. But as soon as you start
(21:56):
speaking, you know, as soon as you build up a little bit of
trust and understand what's going on behind the scene, it's
it's really, really, really the opposite.
So it's almost like the better it looks on the outside, the the
the more dirty there it is on the inside.
Yeah, yeah, that that's a great look at there.
There's AI think it's a quote from Theodore Roosevelt.
Comparison is the thief of joy. So when you find yourself
(22:19):
comparison when you know, because I that was the issue.
I had anyone that I learned fromany mentor coach I had put them
on a pedestal, couldn't imagine anything them doing anything
ever wrong. And so I had plenty of people
that I followed fall off that pedestal.
But if I, if I realized they probably don't belong in a
pedestal to begin with, that would have probably helped both
sides of that relationship a lot.
(22:40):
Yeah. If there's a man listening now
who feels isolated but is still in that place of of fearful of
reaching out, fearful of saying anything, what would you suggest
as as the as the best, easiest possible first step?
Yeah, I would say the first think about if there's anyone at
all, if is there a friend who you can start to be a little bit
(23:03):
vulnerable with and perhaps you don't have to go to full length
and sharing all your secrets right away.
The best would be to start and Italk about the vulnerability
muscles, start practising it. So from your conversations
moving forward, just start opening up step by step.
When I went through my difficulttimes, my my divorce and the
(23:23):
resignation of the work and whenI fell down, I had fantastic
friends around me, but I was notopen and vulnerable with them.
I played golf with them, I went to the bar with them, drank beer
with them, watched sport at the pub with them and I saw it as a
place to, you know, relax and have a good time.
But I didn't speak about any of the challenges.
(23:44):
These days though, my conversations with my male
friends is different. They are all so deep,
vulnerable. Yes, we still have a good time.
I had a went to a cinema with one of my good friends last
night. But after that, actually we
walked outside and we sat for a while and we had a big deep
honest conversation about life and asking him how is he doing,
any challenges in his life now, what about his family and so on.
(24:08):
And we just ask a couple of questions.
Then we're strengthening the relationship.
So I would say that's one advice.
If there's no emergency, if there's a real emergency and we
have to speak about something, then I I recommend what I said
before then professional services, helpline, hotlines
where there's volunteers or therapists or coaches.
And most of these, including howI work these days as a coach is
(24:31):
online. So a lot of work can be
anonymous. It can be during a lunch break
or during the weekend. So no one has to be seen to
seeking these kind of services these days.
Yeah, and I'll, I'll share like I have called suicide hotlines
and gotten a benefit from it. I have had to put myself into an
ER to make sure I'd stay alive, and that's OK too.
(24:53):
You know, the the biggest mistake I find is somehow
believing you don't belong here.So, Nick, I wonder what's one
thing that you wish more men knew?
And I would like to tie that back to what you said, because
it's about belonging. And I mean the opposite to
loneliness is connection and that comes from belonging.
(25:13):
So I believe that we need to be proactive as men to find places
to belong. We need to belong in in places
where we feel that this is a space for me, like in my case,
it's triathlon, the swim, bikingand cycling.
So I'm, I'm doubling down on this sport of triathlon because
that's my tribe. I show up to swim academies, I
(25:35):
run with them, I cycle with them, I do trips with them and
so on. But for someone else, it might
be that they love fishing, then double down on that.
Perhaps there was someone who's listening who enjoyed fishing
when they were younger than the last 1020 years.
They stopped it. And I would then encourage
everyone to bring out those hobbies again.
Sign up for a community or a club or an association who The
(25:57):
Who provides, you know, perhaps trips some some gatherings
together where you can then be with like minded do what you
love. So you should have that place to
belong. So you have that tribe.
And I think that is something that we need really to be taking
responsibility for ourselves because no one else will do that
to you. When we were children, our
(26:18):
parents drove us around typically to test different kind
of sports and activities and so on.
But then we become very busy with our adult life and work and
then we stop those services. But my call to action is to
everyone to look out for those places where they belong.
And it can be sport, but it can also be a men's group.
Indeed, if someone is listening and don't belong to a men's
(26:39):
group, perhaps look for one in your area.
Yeah, I I agree with everything you've said for this entire
interview, Nick. So I feel like a good soul.
So. So Nick, what's the best way for
people to connect with you and learn more?
Well, I'm quite active on LinkedIn.
They can look me up there and it's Nick Johnson.
NICK. And Johnson is spelled Jonsson.
(27:02):
Otherwise, my book Executive Loneliness is on Amazon.
It's also on Audible as an audiobook.
Well, thanks so much for being here today, Nick.
Thanks for thanks for your journey.
Thanks for still being here and thanks for all the work you're
doing to help more men stay here, be themselves and and
(27:22):
enjoy be themselves. Thank you so much for having me
on the show, Andy, and thanks for the great work you do and
thanks to all the listeners. Thanks for listening to Real Men
Feel and this powerful talk withNick Johnson.
If his story resonated with you,know that you are not alone and
you don't need to suffer in science.
Take a moment today to reach out, check in, open up to a
friend, and if you're looking for a safe, supportive space to
(27:45):
do that with other men, join Authentic AF, our free community
at realmenfeel.org/group. Stay real, stay connected, and
until next time, be good to yourself.
When I had so much pain and whenI was so sick and tired of being
sick and tired that I started toask for help and and it's at
that moment where everything changed do.
You think we can ever get to a aplace, a society, a time that
men don't need to hit rock bottom?
That we don't need to be in so much pain before we raise that
(00:20):
hand tip for help. I really hope so, Andy.
Hello, Welcome to Real Men Field.
I'm your host Andy Green. This is the show where we
explore the evolving face of masculinity and what it means to
be authentic, open and fully alive for men today.
Today I'm joined by Nick Johnson, a Ted X speaker #1
International best selling author and a leading voice on
(00:41):
executive mental health and maleisolation.
Nick knows first hand how success on the outside can hide
deep loneliness on the inside. In our conversation, we dive
into the hidden struggles of high performing men, the stigma
around vulnerability, how we canall build a more connected,
emotionally honest lives. And if you crave more real
connection with other men, checkout Authentic AF, my free online
(01:05):
community at realmenfield.org/group.
You don't have to go it alone, let's do it.
Hello Nick, and welcome to Real Men Field.
Thank you so much and it's greatto be here.
So, Nick, I really got to start with your start What, What in
your life prompted you to speak so openly about loneliness and
(01:28):
isolation for men? Well, it was out of desperation,
actually. I went through a very nasty
divorce, 2015 to 18, and I grinded through that in
isolation myself. And then I hit rock bottom and
it's from there. I sort of came out of the ashes
and rebuilt my life. So you had a successful life,
(01:49):
career, status, all the outwardsvisibility of success.
So what was going on inside you during those darkest times?
Yeah, I would say that, you know, I was in a job that
perhaps was a bit bigger than I was ready for.
I had pushed really hard. I wanted the promotions, I
wanted the bonuses and everything else, and I pushed
(02:10):
for it. But I wasn't open, I wasn't
vulnerable about the part, the parts of the job where I fell
short. I was doing really well in
business development, in the sales and so on.
But the back office, the numbersand so on, I wasn't on top of.
But I was too scared to ask my boss for help there.
And that eventually led me to making some mistakes and
(02:31):
eventually my resignation from ajob that I loved and a place
where I should have stayed if I had to.
Had to got to ask for help. Why do you think so many high
achieving men in particular struggle with vulnerability and
asking for help? Yeah, it's a great question,
Andy, and it's something that I,I keep asking myself as well,
(02:53):
because in that particular job, I actually knew the boss very
well. I was home at her place on
Sundays having barbecues. You know, we were quite open
with ourselves and she was also hiring me twice in my life.
So we had a very good open relationship.
However, I focused the conversations on making sure
that I look good. I focused on impressing her and
(03:15):
making sure that she felt comfortable knowing that I had
her back, that there was no problems with me.
So I just didn't feel safe to open up and and asking for help.
Instead, I tried to impress her and I did the same behaviour
with a mentor. I had.
A mentor also had ten years moreexperience than me in the
company and I did the same with him.
I tried to impress him, making sure that, you know, I would get
(03:37):
the next promotion, that I wouldget the bonuses.
And again, I was too scared to open up to him about the
challenges. I thought that maybe if I'd
share this, then maybe I'm not going to get the next role,
which is I want. And I think it's also an issue
of how society is set up becauseI really elbowed my way sort of
up the corporate ladder and everyone is playing the game and
(03:57):
no one actually, or my colleagues even was vulnerable.
So it's the, at least in the companies I worked, it was the
company culture that was set up for this.
So what finally happened then had you crack open and share
yourself? Yeah, it, it was only after I
had resigned and after I had resigned from the job, people
(04:17):
start to ask me, you know, Nick,why did you resign from this
job? You're doing well and so on.
And I didn't give them any honest answers.
It was due to my insecurities because I start to have panic
attacks thinking that I'd done something wrong, but in truth
that it was the the challenges of my insecurities that led to
resignation, nothing else. But I didn't want to share that.
(04:38):
So I said I'm paying that I'm going to start up my own
business, I'm going to invest insome startups and so on.
And I painted this picture. And once I've then found myself
outside of this paid job, yes, Idid invest my money, but it also
was poorly invested and I lost everything and I almost ended up
bankrupt. And then due to that also filed
for divorce for my ex-wife. We had a marriage of 13 years
(05:01):
and when she started to questionme, I wasn't ready for any
conversation. So if that was how it was going
to be then I filed for a divorce.
That's easier than explain myself.
And then I basically for three years just jumped from job to
job and kept failing everything and drinking more, gaining more
weight until I found myself basically at what I call rock
(05:21):
bottom. And it's from there when I had
so much pain and when I was so sick and tired of being sick and
tired that I started to ask for help.
And and it's at that moment where everything changed do.
You think we can ever get to a place, a society, a time that
men don't need to hit rock bottom?
That we don't need to be in so much pain before we raise that
(05:44):
hand tip for help. I really hope so, Andy and I, I
know that you're also talking about men and you're talking
about the men to be more open and so on and creating safe
spaces. And that's something that I do
in my part of the world as well.I spend most of my time in
Southeast Asia. I run a men's group where we
share and we practice to being more open and vulnerable.
(06:07):
We practice getting some trust between US and we can build up
these these vulnerabilities in normal times.
It doesn't have to be when it's a big life crisis.
One example of this in my men's group now, there's one man who
just lost his mother this week. And of course it's heartbreaking
for him. But he says thanks to him being
(06:28):
part of this group for 3-4 months where he already sort of
opened up, he is now opening up.He's sharing with me, he's
sharing with the men's group, he's sharing with his wife, he's
sharing with his sister. He's talking more not only about
the logistics but also his feelings and acknowledging the
feelings of others. So I do believe we can do that.
We need to be proactive and we need to have these safe spaces
(06:50):
and offer them an encouragement to learn to speak about their
their feelings. Yeah, I couldn't agree more.
And I, I, I know sobriety was a big part of your journey.
So how did getting sober reshapeperhaps your your approach to
leadership and even masculinity itself?
Yeah, so sobriety is is a big thing in my life.
(07:11):
It's almost like my second birthday.
That of course, it's really a different way of living for me.
And it's twofold. Firstly, then I actually learnt
the, the, the to ask for help through one or the 12 step
programmes which is set up for that, where you then get support
by someone who's been there before.
And it is in those rooms that for the first time in my life, I
(07:34):
heard men being there was women there as well in some of the
meetings, some were men's groupsonly.
But when people actually were honest, they spoke about their
challenges, the mistakes, the failures of their life without
shame and guilt. And I start to feel safe to then
take ownership for my my mistakes in my life, the issues
(07:54):
that I had been facing and what have happened to me.
And step by step, I start to share.
So that was really what happenedthen that I started to open up.
That was the one thing. The second thing of course,
being more physically and mentally health and emotionally
healthy has made a huge impact on my life as well.
Yeah, I know. In my experience, for me, what
(08:14):
what made me open and share morewas that the first time I did do
that, I wasn't mocked. People didn't run away.
You know, that was my biggest fear.
If someone knew how badly I feltthat they would just, they would
just flee, they'd run for the hills.
So is that the, is that kind of was that one of the powers of of
a men's group giving you that, that practice that you mentioned
earlier? Yeah, absolutely.
(08:34):
And in the men's group typicallywe perhaps share what is most
challenging one-on-one first. And these days also, I'm, I'm a
coach and a mentor, some of the men, so some of them might have
a one-on-one conversation with them first, prepare them and get
them to practice and be comfortable just sharing with
me. And then typically I ask them if
there's someone else in their family or someone closer than
(08:56):
they can share it with. Perhaps it's a friend, perhaps
it's a wife or a brother and a sister that they can share
whatever challenge they're goingthrough and talk about it.
And once they've done that, perhaps they then over a week
have spoken to 2-3 people. Then on the next manuscript
meeting, we have a say. We do be ready now to share
that. And that's typically how it
goes. It's a quite a big step for
(09:17):
someone who perhaps is new into men's group to come in and share
some of the biggest challenges they're facing if they haven't
done that before. And that is more common than
not. I would say the most men that
I'm facing and most are Europeans of from America, but
working as experts in Asia, that's my circle and they have
perhaps moved away from the family and then keeping the
(09:40):
distance and not used to being open and vulnerable with them.
So what are some other unique pressures and challenges that
male executives have that that most people probably don't
realize? Yeah, I, I believe, you know,
being an executive can be quite lonely, especially these days.
There's so many changes in the workplace, there's so many
(10:02):
insecurities, there's so much disruptions, and therefore you
never feel safe. So that is the biggest issue I
believe in in with today's work.Gone are the days when you work
30 years for a company and get agold watch.
You always got to watch your back.
And I think that drives that kind of mentality that I had
also that I wasn't vulnerable. I was just making sure that I
(10:25):
was succeeding and I kept it very tight and and clean and
tidy. But behind the the scene, things
were falling apart. And that is what I see with
many, many leaders. They look solid, they look
strong, they look like they haveit all together.
But when you actually ask them, but then there's just so much at
stake. Maybe they have loans and
everything else on house, cars and then they have children in
(10:47):
schools. They got to pay for all of this.
And if they lose the job, not only do they lose the job, but
perhaps they have to pull the children out of the school they
are in. Maybe they have to sell the
house and downgrade to an apartment.
And I've seen so many families then falling apart with divorces
as well. And then comes perhaps coping
mechanisms and addictions into that.
(11:09):
And then it's the full circle. So you have kind of lived life
from both sides from wearing themask.
Let anyone think you're you're fine.
Everything's going great and andall or should say oh sound like
many of your interactions at work.
We're focused on what you presented and you've had the
experience of being open and vulnerable, and either of those,
(11:31):
did life become easier? Yes, certainly.
I mean, when you're trying to doit all yourself, when you're
putting all the bets on yourself, then it's very, very
challenging. You have no rooms for errors.
Everything has to be perfect. And that's why perhaps we work
ourselves, you know, 2 long hours, weekends, sacrificing
(11:51):
work over everything. Maybe also, you know, not
becoming too close to any friends and colleagues.
That means you isolate yourself in the workplace and that has a
lot of downsides there. Then on the other side of it, my
life now, having learnt first inthe recovery program to ask for
help and being vulnerable there,I have brought that across to
(12:13):
the other sides of my life. And one example is in triathlon,
the sport I did before where youswim, cycle and run.
I was mediocre there and I struggled and sometimes I didn't
even show up to the start of therace.
These days though, I I fully embraced it and I said, well,
what about if I apply the same mentality as I did for my other
(12:33):
areas of my life when I recovered into the sport?
Which means signing up for a club, having a tribe where I
have other people who do the same sport, getting a coach,
someone who give me a training plan, someone who can mentor me
and show me how to do it properly.
And I've done all of that for the last few years and I'm
truly, truly enjoying the sport,getting better, but most
(12:55):
importantly also feel completelysocially connected rather than
isolated. Nice.
What? What can the workplace do?
What what can corporate environments do to combat this
sense of of isolation? I think the best is to lead by
example. They just have to be a bit
vulnerable and open themselves. And that doesn't mean that we
(13:17):
have to come in and share all our secrets and challenges in
the office. That's not what it's about.
But it's about taking ownership,perhaps for some of the
insecurities and failures and being open with the team.
And in my case, then, where I should have been open was that
I'm not very good at Numbers, I'm not very good at Microsoft
Excel. We were bidding for a lot of
(13:39):
projects. Things were moving very fast.
I couldn't really keep up. If I would have been vulnerable
about that, I don't think anyonewould have judged me.
But it's another thing coming inand sharing, you know, some
major personal problems we have.Maybe we can keep that to a
men's group or to a therapist orcoach and working on those
insecurities or to our friends outside the workplace.
(14:00):
But there's certainly some things that you should be
vulnerable with inside the workplace.
And that is as soon as you feel that this is overwhelming, I'm
not really sure about this, thenthink about who can you ask for
help? And that's a good distinction to
make because, yeah, we're not encouraging, We're not
suggesting, man, you should be crying in meetings and be all
(14:21):
over the place and be an emotional mess.
But I find that if you don't share all of you somewhere, then
you're more likely to have that kind of that public breakdown
and all the emotions that we compressed will eventually come
out of us. Yeah, absolutely.
And in my case, I wasn't ready to face it.
So I rather resigned from that job, which was something I was
(14:43):
thinking about for about one year.
I drafted my resignation letter about six months before I handed
it in because I shouldn't actually have resigned from that
job. I was doing a good job in 95% of
my role. I was doing really great, but it
was those insecurities that killed me and I just to the
point where I, I couldn't hold it together.
(15:03):
And that's an expensive learningthat I, I just hope that I never
have in any situation. It doesn't matter if it's a
relationship or if it's a workplace or something we do.
We got to think and ask yourselves, am I feeling OK
here? And if not, who can I talk to
about this? So you have an international
clientele it sounds like. Do you see cultural differences
(15:25):
around the world in how men bothexpress loneliness and hide it?
Yeah, I would say in Asia then Iwould say that Asians are even
more closed than us Westerners. We might be a little bit more
outspoken. I see that in everything from
the 12 step programs and so on. You know, there's just so much
(15:47):
stigma to show up and to even admit that you have some issues
or challenges in Asia. So they are hiding even deeper.
So that's why for myself, them working in that part of the
world in the region, I got to bea role model by showing up and
and sharing what happens when wedo share.
And that's what I did in my bookExecutive Loneliness, where I
interviewed executives and leaders and entrepreneurs mainly
(16:11):
in Southeast Asia about their isolation and feelings and so
on. And then what happens on the
other side when we do open up. So I think there's a long way to
go, definitely a very long way to go also in Asia.
But otherwise it's the same feelings of isolation.
If you're in a workplace where you don't share and ask for
help, then it it doesn't matter where in the world you are,
(16:31):
you're going to feel lonely. Right.
No matter where you go, there you are.
So about the book Executive loneliness, what?
What's been the most surprising or meaningful reaction you've
gotten to the book? Well, I wrote it, you know, when
about one year into my recovery.So I was already feeling quite
well at that time. I was one year sober.
(16:53):
I lost the weight and I had dealt with my issues.
I worked with a coach, I spoke to therapist and and all these
kind of things have been happening.
But then something happened thatchanged my life and triggered me
to write a book and that was that.
I sadly lost a friend of mine tosuicide, a man from the UK who
worked in Singapore at the time,someone who I worked with and
(17:15):
someone who I thought had it alltogether.
But when he was gone, I was so sad, heartbroken and also I felt
that if only I knew that something was going on.
And then I start to think about asking myself the question, you
know, how close was I to this? Because at my lowest point, I
wrote my will, I wrote my testament.
(17:37):
And I basically start to plan for my own funeral.
I wasn't suicidal, but I couldn't see in the future.
I didn't have any hope. I didn't really care if I would
wake up or not. So that's the sort of Gray zone
of life I was in. But then having come out of it
one year feeling much better looking back at it, that's when
I realised we, there's a lot of work to be done here.
(18:00):
And that's when I opened up fully.
I made a LinkedIn post at the time that went viral where I
signed up for suicide preventionagency as a founder and
volunteer to reduce the stigma of them asking for help and, and
suicide prevention. And at that stage, then a lot of
media exposure happened. I was on live TV, radio, there
(18:21):
was newspaper articles from all around the world coming in.
And with that, then everyone said the same thing, Nick, you
got to write a book about this. So that's what I did.
And the biggest surprise was, I think how well it's received and
how good it's selling still today, four years after its
release. You mentioned that line that I,
I say in here often of I thoughtI had it all together and and I
(18:44):
find that that's that's the biggest mask that men wear.
I'll get it all figured out. Everything's fine.
Don't ask me anything. And it just keeps that, it keeps
that false distance between US and everybody that that could
make our life but even better. How do you think we might help
more men drop that mask? I think what you're doing today
(19:06):
here, Andy with me that to be having this open conversation,
the fact that we talked about it, where we've been and others
been and how it can go. Because ultimately, if we don't
have this conversation, then we might end up like Simon, my
friend who died of suicide. And sadly, it's all too common.
We all have lost friends when itcomes to this.
So that is what lies at the end of it.
(19:27):
If we don't talk about it then but keep speaking about it, keep
showing up like you and I do today having these
conversations. And for anyone who's listening,
you know, think about if you, who can you talk to?
Is that someone in your life whoyou can be honest and vulnerable
with about your challenges? And if not, think about who can
you talk to? Because then there are coaches,
(19:48):
there are therapists, there are also all these help lines and
hotlines. And what I found was that
alcohol was my challenge. And it was a wonderful world of
recovery all around the world around that.
But what I know now know is thatit's equal as good if someone is
struggling with gambling. Or drugs, or if there's any
(20:10):
social media addictions, food addictions, sugar addiction, all
of these issues, Someone else has been there before and have
these issues. And I even found out now that
they even have these 12 step programs for people who are
facing bankruptcy or someone whomight be having a company that
is going bankrupt. Because then the stigma of
discussing for that and sharing that is something that's
(20:32):
difficult. You even have these programs and
they don't charge. These are volunteer programs,
help where people are giving back and helping, so there's
some support for everyone there to speak up.
Yeah, and you know, long time listeners, people who know me
know this, but I'm a survivor ofmultiple suicide attempts in in
my teens and 20s. And you know, it's a lesson I
(20:53):
needed. But that's why, that's why I, I
came out of the emotional closetthen and trying to combat the
stigma on this, because men shouldn't have to face the end
of their life to decide that, OK, I'm supposed to be here,
right? I find that, you know, our life
is meant to be joyous. It's meant to be exciting.
(21:13):
It's meant to be seen in his adventure.
So now when I, when I think thatguy's get it all together, I
remind myself, Oh, a lot of people say that about me.
So anytime I think that I'm like, it's probably not true
somewhere in his life. And that's OK.
In fact, that's a good thing. We all have areas that we can
grow. And if, if, if we didn't, I
don't think we'd still be here. Yeah, absolutely.
(21:36):
And I, I, I, I so resonate with what you're saying because many
of the coaching clients I have now or I would say the majority
of them are very well off. Perhaps they are CE OS of big
companies. So they've done really well
financially for themselves. On the outside, everything looks
absolutely perfect. But as soon as you start
(21:56):
speaking, you know, as soon as you build up a little bit of
trust and understand what's going on behind the scene, it's
it's really, really, really the opposite.
So it's almost like the better it looks on the outside, the the
the more dirty there it is on the inside.
Yeah, yeah, that that's a great look at there.
There's AI think it's a quote from Theodore Roosevelt.
Comparison is the thief of joy. So when you find yourself
(22:19):
comparison when you know, because I that was the issue.
I had anyone that I learned fromany mentor coach I had put them
on a pedestal, couldn't imagine anything them doing anything
ever wrong. And so I had plenty of people
that I followed fall off that pedestal.
But if I, if I realized they probably don't belong in a
pedestal to begin with, that would have probably helped both
sides of that relationship a lot.
(22:40):
Yeah. If there's a man listening now
who feels isolated but is still in that place of of fearful of
reaching out, fearful of saying anything, what would you suggest
as as the as the best, easiest possible first step?
Yeah, I would say the first think about if there's anyone at
all, if is there a friend who you can start to be a little bit
(23:03):
vulnerable with and perhaps you don't have to go to full length
and sharing all your secrets right away.
The best would be to start and Italk about the vulnerability
muscles, start practising it. So from your conversations
moving forward, just start opening up step by step.
When I went through my difficulttimes, my my divorce and the
(23:23):
resignation of the work and whenI fell down, I had fantastic
friends around me, but I was notopen and vulnerable with them.
I played golf with them, I went to the bar with them, drank beer
with them, watched sport at the pub with them and I saw it as a
place to, you know, relax and have a good time.
But I didn't speak about any of the challenges.
(23:44):
These days though, my conversations with my male
friends is different. They are all so deep,
vulnerable. Yes, we still have a good time.
I had a went to a cinema with one of my good friends last
night. But after that, actually we
walked outside and we sat for a while and we had a big deep
honest conversation about life and asking him how is he doing,
any challenges in his life now, what about his family and so on.
(24:08):
And we just ask a couple of questions.
Then we're strengthening the relationship.
So I would say that's one advice.
If there's no emergency, if there's a real emergency and we
have to speak about something, then I I recommend what I said
before then professional services, helpline, hotlines
where there's volunteers or therapists or coaches.
And most of these, including howI work these days as a coach is
(24:31):
online. So a lot of work can be
anonymous. It can be during a lunch break
or during the weekend. So no one has to be seen to
seeking these kind of services these days.
Yeah, and I'll, I'll share like I have called suicide hotlines
and gotten a benefit from it. I have had to put myself into an
ER to make sure I'd stay alive, and that's OK too.
(24:53):
You know, the the biggest mistake I find is somehow
believing you don't belong here.So, Nick, I wonder what's one
thing that you wish more men knew?
And I would like to tie that back to what you said, because
it's about belonging. And I mean the opposite to
loneliness is connection and that comes from belonging.
(25:13):
So I believe that we need to be proactive as men to find places
to belong. We need to belong in in places
where we feel that this is a space for me, like in my case,
it's triathlon, the swim, bikingand cycling.
So I'm, I'm doubling down on this sport of triathlon because
that's my tribe. I show up to swim academies, I
(25:35):
run with them, I cycle with them, I do trips with them and
so on. But for someone else, it might
be that they love fishing, then double down on that.
Perhaps there was someone who's listening who enjoyed fishing
when they were younger than the last 1020 years.
They stopped it. And I would then encourage
everyone to bring out those hobbies again.
Sign up for a community or a club or an association who The
(25:57):
Who provides, you know, perhaps trips some some gatherings
together where you can then be with like minded do what you
love. So you should have that place to
belong. So you have that tribe.
And I think that is something that we need really to be taking
responsibility for ourselves because no one else will do that
to you. When we were children, our
(26:18):
parents drove us around typically to test different kind
of sports and activities and so on.
But then we become very busy with our adult life and work and
then we stop those services. But my call to action is to
everyone to look out for those places where they belong.
And it can be sport, but it can also be a men's group.
Indeed, if someone is listening and don't belong to a men's
(26:39):
group, perhaps look for one in your area.
Yeah, I I agree with everything you've said for this entire
interview, Nick. So I feel like a good soul.
So. So Nick, what's the best way for
people to connect with you and learn more?
Well, I'm quite active on LinkedIn.
They can look me up there and it's Nick Johnson.
NICK. And Johnson is spelled Jonsson.
(27:02):
Otherwise, my book Executive Loneliness is on Amazon.
It's also on Audible as an audiobook.
Well, thanks so much for being here today, Nick.
Thanks for thanks for your journey.
Thanks for still being here and thanks for all the work you're
doing to help more men stay here, be themselves and and
(27:22):
enjoy be themselves. Thank you so much for having me
on the show, Andy, and thanks for the great work you do and
thanks to all the listeners. Thanks for listening to Real Men
Feel and this powerful talk withNick Johnson.
If his story resonated with you,know that you are not alone and
you don't need to suffer in science.
Take a moment today to reach out, check in, open up to a
friend, and if you're looking for a safe, supportive space to
(27:45):
do that with other men, join Authentic AF, our free community
at realmenfeel.org/group. Stay real, stay connected, and
until next time, be good to yourself.
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