September 26, 2025 • 35 mins
Unpacking Narcissism
Real Men Feel host Andy Grant converses with Sterlin Mosley, a therapist, professor, and author specializing in relationships, attachment, and personality dynamics. The discussion delves into the complexities of narcissism, exploring what it truly means, how it manifests in both men and women, and its impact on relationships.
Sterlin shares valuable insights on recognizing narcissistic traits, managing relationships with narcissists, and addressing one's own narcissistic tendencies. Listeners are invited to join the Authentic AF community for further discussions on masculinity, emotions, and healing.
00:00 Introduction to Real Men Feel
01:13 Understanding Narcissism with Sterlin Mosley
02:59 Types and Traits of Narcissism
10:41 Narcissism in Men vs. Women
15:05 Can Narcissists Change?
18:27 Recognizing Narcissistic Relationships
28:31 Cultural and Developmental Influences on Narcissism
30:48 Sterlin Mosley's New Book and Final Thoughts
Connect with Sterlin
Sterlin Mosley — https://sterlinmosley.com
Substack — https://sterlinmosley.substack.com/
Instagram — https://www.instagram.com/sterlinmosley/
LinkedIn — https://www.linkedin.com/in/sterlinmosley/
Resources
Center of the Universe: Transforming the 27 Types of Narcissism from the Inside Out — https://amzn.to/483i1Hp
The Narcissist in You and Everyone Else: Recognizing the 27 Types of Narcissism — https://amzn.to/3KfxBWG
Connect with Andy and the Real Men Feel Podcast:
Join other like-minded men in the
Authentic AF Community | http://realmenfeel.org/group
Instagram | @realmenfeelshow & @theandygrant
Andy Grant Website | https://theandygrant.com for coaching, healing, and book info!
Real Men Feel Website | http://realmenfeel.org
YouTube | https://youtube.com/realmenfeel
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
You're going to want to look for, for however long you've
known the person, a persistent inability to empathize with
other people in instances where they should now they can.
What's confusing is that narcissist can sometimes perform
empathy, or they seem like they're being empathetic, but
when the behavior doesn't match the words and you can usually
(00:23):
feel the incongruence between what they're saying and what
they actually feel. Hello and welcome to Real Men
Feel. I'm your host, author, coach,
and healer, Andy Grant. You can learn more about me at
the andygrant.com. Here in Real Men Feel, we have
conversations that most men are not having, but that all men and
the women who love them can benefit from.
Today, we're diving into a topicthat gets thrown around a lot
but is often misunderstood narcissism.
(00:46):
My guest is Sterling Mosley, a therapist, professor, and author
specializing in relationships, attachment, and personality
dynamics. We'll explore what narcissism
really means, how it shows up inmen and women, its impact on
relationships, and most importantly, what we can do
about it. If you want to continue
conversations like this, join our private community, Authentic
(01:07):
AF by visiting realmenfeel.org/group.
Let's do it. Hello Sterling, and welcome to
Real Men Feel. Hi, thank you for having me.
So I always like to start at thebasics and allow everybody get
on the same page. So could you tell us what
narcissism really is? Oh, big question right in front.
(01:31):
So, well, I think narcissism, I think there's the, the simplest
way to think about narcissism isthat it's the pervasive, long
standing meaning throughout mostof the lifespan.
A lot of it is empathy deficits.So most narcissistic people have
deficits in their ability to utilize empathy towards others.
Now they, it doesn't mean that they don't experience other
(01:53):
emotions, but empathy seems to be blunted and then just sort of
a kind of over focus on one's own needs, emotions, goals,
priorities over others, even when it would be beneficial to
them to focus on other people. So and I, you know, I often say
(02:14):
narcissism, of course there's clinical narcissism, which is,
you know what, most people feel uncomfortable calling people a
narcissist like, well, I'm not qualified to diagnose
narcissism. And I, you know, I always tell
people most narcissists don't end up in therapy anyway, which
is why the diagnosis rate is so low, because if you think you're
pretty great, you're probably not going to go and have someone
(02:36):
tell you you're not. So, so there's clinical
narcissism, which is technicallyvery rare because of the low
diagnosis. And then there's just everyday
kind of narcissism, which is what most people are going to
encounter. So, but at its root, those are
the kind of two things I always point people to and over focus
on oneself and an inability to feel vulnerability or allow
vulnerability. And then the the lack of
(02:58):
empathy. So is it that over focus on
oneself? That is kind of the difference
between a healthy self-confidence and narcissism.
Yes, exactly. Yeah.
I mean, any one of us can feel proud of ourselves or even have
days where we're, you know, maybe a little boastful or
arrogant or selfish, right. And that doesn't make you a
(03:19):
narcissist. But.
But narcissistic people have a sort of chronic or pervasive
need to protect what actually isa very fragile ego structure
underneath the bravado and bluster and arrogance.
And so because of that, they, they really, the, the, it's like
they're putting on like a suit of armor and they just keep
(03:41):
putting on different pieces of armor, right?
And, and so then eventually theybecome impenetrable to not only
their own vulnerability touchingother people, but other people's
touching them. And so, So what happens is that
the, they become sort of a fortress of their own making,
right? Because they're trying to
protect this very kind of raw, vulnerable parts of themselves
(04:04):
that we all have. But for them, it's unacceptable
to allow that part to be seen tothe world, unless their
narcissism is about how vulnerable and, and you know,
weak and all that they are. That is a form of narcissism,
but for the most part, most of them, that's what allows them or
does not allow them to connect with other people.
Because really narcissism is kind of a a relational disorder,
(04:28):
I guess we could say over and it's personality one, but it
also effects other people, so. So typically a narcissist would
not see any of this as a problem.
Yeah, not really. Usually narcissistic people
don't think of themselves being the problem, right?
By the nature of the way that their ego functions, it has to
(04:49):
be someone else, right? It has to be someone else's
faults. It has to be someone else's
problem. Because to admit that it's their
problem means there's something wrong with them and there can't
be anything wrong so. I'm sure you are aware there's a
lot of buzz and narcissism really is such a thrown about
term online. How is it being overused or
(05:11):
misused in your opinion? It's getting thrown around a
lot, which I guess was good for me 'cause I was able to get my
books published. But then at the same time it's
frustrating because it's being used in situations where it
shouldn't be. I think a lot of people think,
oh, someone's just confident or has charisma.
(05:32):
I saw a reel on Instagram or something that you know someone
was talking about. If someone has charisma, then
they definitely are narcissist. And I was like God.
So it's definitely not that I think, I think the confusion is
ironically that because of the age of social media and instant
information and instant experts,that's created a kind of in a
(05:56):
weird way, narcissistic society where everybody thinks they're
experts. And so they, without really
consuming or learning or going in depth about what narcissism
is, they sort of cherry pick traits, throw them in a basket
and say, well, this is narcissism, right?
So it, it is overused. And, and then on the other hand,
(06:17):
I'm glad that there's awareness about narcissism growing.
I just wish that there was more accuracy in the dissemination of
it. And what first drew you into
wanting to be an an expert or atleast study narcissism?
Well, I have some personal experience with narcissists in
my life and my family and in professional situations I've
(06:40):
encountered some narcissism. And so I have first hand
experience with the effects of narcissism, especially in the
familial context where it's sortof pervasive and long standing
throughout your life. And then actually I didn't
really get interested in narcissism specifically until
maybe about four or five years ago.
(07:00):
I mean, it's, I've sort of touched on and off.
I studied my master's program, Istudied counseling, and so I was
very into personality typologies.
And one of my other passions is the Enneagram, which is, you
know, the 9 personality types. But when I was studying that, I
sort of knew that, well, you know, if you have these nine
different kind of ego fixations,overarching ego fixations, you
(07:23):
know, there has to be a form of narcissism that shows up in each
one of those. And actually there's 27
variations of the nine types. So then my first book was the 27
Types of Narcissism. So I actually mapped out of
these 27 different subtypes, which map to the Enneagram.
But at its very basic level, oneof the things that I encountered
when I was starting to get really interested in personality
(07:45):
disorders was that a lot of narcissistic research kind of
had one personality type of narcissism, right?
The grandiose, boastful narcissist.
And that's just one flavour of narcissism.
And I said, you know, there's lots of different ways
narcissism can show up. Narcissism itself isn't a
personality type, right? It isn't a personality style,
(08:06):
but it is like an overlay that you can put on anyone's
personality depending on who they are.
So that that kind of sparked my interest in wanting to learn
about narcissism more deeply andgetting really involved with it.
Also, with 27 different types ofnarcissism, are there particular
types that are more common? No, so there's the the without
(08:32):
getting too in the weed 27, there's there's the over what I
call sub variants of narcissism,which are sort of a prelude to
the 27. So the sub variants of
narcissism are the ones that people usually know.
That's like the grandiose narcissist, the vulnerable
narcissist. There's there's nine of those
that I outlined. So there's grandiose, there's
vulnerable, there's the intellectual narcissist, right?
(08:53):
That some people don't think about.
This is the person that thinks they're the greatest mind in the
world, right? And that everyone is, they may
overestimate their intelligence or their IQ or they think all of
their contributions, intellectual contributions are,
you know, the greatest, but theymay not look like what
narcissist, what people think a narcissist should look, should
look like. They don't focus as much on
(09:15):
their appearance. They may be less physically
vain. They may not care about
popularity in the same way. So and then there's like the
benign narcissist, right? That is actually the most common
that most people will encounter.And that's the one that flies
under the radar. So sometimes we call that the
nice narcissist. And it's somebody who thinks
that they're, you know, generally they're easier to be
(09:37):
around. They can be a lot of fun.
There's a lot of histrionic features that go into that where
they, there's, but they're superficial, right?
They, they just skin the surfaceof things.
If something's wrong or someone's upset, they can't
really relate or they don't wantto or they will.
I've known a nice narcissist that pull back from people
during like grief or depression or illness, right?
(09:57):
Where they're like, I don't wantto deal with that.
It's negative, right? Well, somebody that has that
toxic positivity that can sometimes be the nice
narcissist. So that's actually a more common
one that people think. So, So there's these sort of
overarching subvariants. I'd say the most common one, the
nice narcissist or benign narcissist, slides under the
radar a lot. The grandiose is the one that
(10:19):
people will recognize the most. The malignant is the one that
people are scared of, right? Because there's sort of
psychopathic features involved with that.
They can be violent or aggressive.
So I wouldn't necessarily say 1 is more common as much as I
would say 1 is. Some of them are more
recognizable to other people than the other the other ones.
(10:42):
Do you see narcissism showing upin different ways for men versus
women? Good question.
Yes, yes, I think that in certainly in our society, in
American or and Western culture and throughout Europe, you know
the sort of masculine, the the favouring of, you know,
(11:04):
masculinity and maleness and those cultures, many cultures
throughout the world. I think it allows for male
narcissists to, they tend to be more overt with their
narcissistic characteristics. Sometimes those traits sort of
coalesce with stereotypical ideas of masculinity, right?
Being authoritative and strong and saying what you want and all
(11:28):
of that. And so sometimes that cultural
overlay can mask narcissism or vice versa.
So whereas women, you know, I see a lot of defaulting to the
benign nice narcissism or the communal narcissist, which is
the, the kind that wants to be benevolent and seen as helpful.
And you see a lot of that philanthropy work in the
(11:51):
malignant narcissist definitely shows up more with men in my in
my work, in my case studies. So yeah, I think that the
expectation of what masculinity and femininity is absolutely
shapes the way that somebody thethe way that they feel
comfortable performing their narcissism out out in the world.
Whereas women may suppress or hide some of the narcissistic
(12:13):
traits more because of the culture, right.
And and what's expected of womenand what's expected of men.
That's a really good question. Yeah, right.
So since what is often expected of men or the the stereotypical
view of masculinity being strongand dominant and kind of denying
your emotions, does that push men into becoming narcissists or
(12:37):
or do they have narcissism almost as another mask that they
wear? So I talked about this in my
second book a little bit, the gender kind of question, and I
think it's very nuanced, right? I think that masculinity
stereotypical or definitely toxic masculinity, I think the
(12:57):
kind of person especially that'sattracted to the more toxic
presentation of masculinity, theyou know, the I've got to be
overtly aggressive and take whatI want and don't show
vulnerability. I think the person that's
attracted to that kind of masculine display probably has
higher cystic traits. It's mirroring how they feel
(13:20):
internally. Whereas I've known of men who
have tried to adopt that way of being and it it kind of works,
but it also feels incongruent. And so you can always kind of
tell that like this person doesn't really, that's not their
natural mode of being right now.If you, you know, adopt A
masculinity script, either from maybe you're, you got a parent
(13:42):
or caregiver who pushed that on you or peers, you know, over
time, there's something what we call acquired narcissism.
And you can kind of acquire, even if they weren't innate, you
can kind of acquire narcissistictraits by being around certain
groups of people that have, you know, narcissistic values or
things like that. So I think that I think that
(14:06):
masculinity does real masculinity, which I'm sure
you've talked a lot of stuff on your show, it doesn't have
anything to do with, you know, dominating everybody and all of
that, right? Allows full, full vulnerability
and feeling, right? And whereas the sort of
performative kinds of masculinity that are, in my
(14:27):
opinion, outdated, I think it does have a lot of narcissistic
traits. So it there's kind of a chicken
or egg thing happening there. But I do think if you have
higher narcissistic traits, you're going to be attracted to,
and there's lots of research on this, right?
Certain ideologies over others, right?
Ones that don't, where you don'tshow empathy to others, where
(14:48):
showing that kind of care is weakness, You know, being
vulnerable is weak, dominating people.
If you're attracted to those values, you probably already
have higher narcissism innate. But it just sound like at least
some people can develop more narcissistic traits as they grow
up and are influenced by by society or wanting to fit in and
(15:09):
whatever group they're they're running with, right?
Does that mean that someone that's narcissistic can change
for the better? Like, you know, is it treatable?
That, yeah, there, there's kind of mixed research about that
there there's some emerging therapeutic techniques and that
just take a long time. And I've worked with
narcissistic people and and coaching.
(15:31):
And what I will say is that whatalmost all, not all, but many
narcissists can learn how different strategies for dealing
with people. Because what often happens with
narcissists is they, especially if it's, you know, significant
enough because you know, there'sspectrum is that there, there
comes a point in their lives where they're encountering a lot
(15:52):
of resistance to their lives, towhatever they want to do because
people are in conflict with themor they're getting relationships
are ending. Children are not talking to
them. You know, they're losing jobs.
And so sometimes those things will push someone who's
narcissistic into a therapeutic situation, right?
Either coaching or therapy. Now they don't come saying I'm
(16:14):
narcissistic and help if they usually come because other
people are telling them like, I can't live or work with you
anymore. And so therefore they're not
getting their needs met or they're not.
They're losing relationships andthey're experiencing anxiety,
depression. You know, they still have those
human things that happened to them.
(16:36):
So often times what they can learn are strategies for how to
actually talk to people, how to even if they're not feeling
empathy for someone else, how tostop and ask, you know, like,
what are you feeling? How do you feel or saying, I'm
sorry that happened? And that can be really hard.
And it takes a long time for them to be able to do those
(16:58):
things because a lot of those things, too many narcissists
signal weakness. Now, some narcissists are really
good at saying I'm sorry and notmeaning it right and then just
repeating the behaviour. But some of them aren't.
And so they can learn strategiesfor interpersonal growth or to
help their relationships, but itdoesn't always mean that they're
(17:18):
changing their internal experience.
There's certain life events, I think with people.
I have a family member who spentmost of their life being very
narcissistic and they're, you know, in their 90s now and
they've softened a lot. Now there's some, you know,
memory loss and, and dementia there.
So I'm like, well, maybe they just forgot their defense
(17:39):
strategies. But whatever the case, that's
it's shifted them a lot. And so sometimes life and things
that happen to people can't chipaway at that armour I was
talking about so. So it it sounds like it's again,
he said. No one's ever like I'm feeling.
I'm struggling with my narcissism.
I'm able to get help. It's more I need help dealing
with all these weird people getting in my way in the life I
(18:01):
want to live. Exactly, exactly right, Yeah,
there are some narcissists that that are self aware that you can
there's like youtubes of narcissism.
I've, I've met and worked with acouple and that's different
because they're like, yeah, I know, I know, I you know, and
there it is a little bit better in a weird way because there's
something about the self-awareness that helps them
(18:23):
to mitigate the behavior, but it's still there.
So yeah. Still, and what is some red
flags for people to be on the lookout for, perhaps in
hindsight or or present day, that their romantic,
professional or family based relationship might be with a
narcissist? Good question.
(18:44):
So I think again, you're going to want to look for for however
long you've known the person, a persistent inability to
empathize with other people in instances where they should now
they can. What's confusing is that
narcissist can sometimes performempathy or they seem like
(19:05):
they're being empathetic, but when the behavior doesn't match
the words and you can usually feel the incongruence between
what they're saying and what they actually feel.
So that's that's one of the first things and then
manipulation. So if you find yourself in a
relationship with someone who either when you leave their
presence, you're doubting yourself, right?
(19:25):
Because they probably gaslightedyou about your reality or you
know, what you feel or what you think.
That's often a good indication is if you walk away thinking,
well, I went in there to talk about this and then I left
feeling like guilty for having this issue or, you know, somehow
it got turned around on me. If that happens a lot, that's a
(19:49):
red flag. That's something to look at.
I would also say somebody who, especially in a romantic
relationship, narcissistic people tend to default to
controlling and even well in allrelationships but.
You notice it a lot in romantic relationships, but in families
also where they want to control what you, you know, do or say or
(20:10):
how you present to the world because you are an extension of
them. So you don't get to be your own
person. You have to reflect whatever
image that they want to reflect in the world.
And I, I've heard this a lot from people that have
narcissistic parents and I've, I've seen that in, in my own
family system. And so that that's a big red
flag. And then in relationships, it
(20:31):
can be more overt to the point where this person wants to tell
you what to wear and you know, what to eat and all of that.
So, so there's a selfishness of self absorption that doesn't go
away, right? It's, it's almost there all the
time. But what people do is they hang
on to the moments when it's not there, right?
(20:51):
And they're like, well, but whenthey're not doing that, they're
really sweet or whatever, which is fine.
And that sometimes can keep people in a relationship with
someone they care about. But it's important to note that
if it's there more often than not, then you know that that's a
big red flag. But yeah, things like
gaslighting frequently, which people?
That's another word that's thrown around all the time,
(21:12):
right? And what gaslighting is, is
trying to convince you out of your reality, your feelings or
your thoughts. It's not when two people
misremember or remember a situation differently, right?
Because I hear I, my students dothat where they're like, well,
he was gaslighting me. I'm like, say more, what do you
mean? And usually it's like, well, we
(21:32):
disagreed about what happened. And I'm like, no, that's just a
disagreement. That's not gaslighting.
Maybe that person remembers it differently.
But if the person is trying to convince you that the way that
they remembered thing or the what you're feeling isn't what
you're feeling, yes, then we cantalk about the term gaslighting.
But I like to always clear that one up because people throw it
(21:53):
around a lot and it it it loses its meaning and impact.
So yeah. Yeah, no, I, I appreciate that.
So, so thanks. So I'll, I hear from a lot of
men that will be in a relationship and recognize the
gaslighting happening to them and the control and the
narcissistic tendencies and their partner, but they've never
(22:13):
heard of this happening to men. So that makes them shut down and
not seek help too. So if if a man is hearing this
conversation or reading your book and realizing, wow, I might
be in a relationship with a narcissist, what's some advice
for them? Yeah, it can be a challenge, I
think for men sometimes to recognize narcissistic abuse in
(22:35):
a relationship because to recognize abuse I think at all
for many men in relationships can bring up that, well.
I'm a man and why would I get abused, right?
And if there's that shame around, you know, either being
vulnerable or some people make it, you know, I was naive.
I should have known better. And that that's none of that is
true, right? Because anybody can get in a
(22:57):
relationship or dynamic with someone narcissistic.
And before you know it, you're in it.
And so I think first it's being able to recognize that it
doesn't mean that there's anything wrong with you or
you're, you know, less of a man or less masculine just because
you are in a narcissistic dynamic.
So, so removing the shame piece is first and foremost because I
(23:21):
have seen that come up a lot with men that I've known and men
that I've worked with where admitting that there's even a, a
possibility that they could get in that dynamic and not
recognize it or notice it sometimes that's the first
barrier. So it's going to be, it's
challenging for anybody to recognize that they maybe are in
a relationship with a narcissistic person, especially
(23:44):
if you love the person or you'remarried to them or you have
children with them, right? And because what is a normal
part of recognizing narcissism in a relationship is there's
that feeling of like, OK, well then who have I been in a
relationship with? Like who is this person really?
And usually those thoughts have come up before and the person
has pushed it down, right. I, I knew someone who was, has
(24:07):
been married narcissist for mostof their lives and they're in
their 60s, seventies. And, you know, he said one day I
just, you know, my wife acts completely differently in public
than she does at home. And, you know, everybody thinks
she, she's so nice and great andwonderful.
And then she comes home and she's cold and everything's
(24:29):
wrong and she's always criticizing me.
One day he just said, like, who,who, which one am I married to?
Like which one is the actual person He was like we'd see
glimpse of that at home. And and there's like sometimes
there's like a creepy feeling for people because it's like, I
don't even know, you know, who this person is or who they
really are. And it's because they don't know
who they are. And so I always tell them like,
(24:53):
it's what you're experiencing orwhat people are interacting with
with the narcissist, except in some very, you know, key
vulnerable moments in their life.
What you're interacting with is the armor is the like a shell or
an image of a person that they've just inhabited and
they've abandoned their own depth.
So, so you, you aren't really interacting with the person,
(25:17):
right? You're interacting with the, the
sort of image of the person which changes and shifts.
But I usually say what, you know, when everything's wrong
and you know, you can't do anything right.
And they don't like anything that's closer to the real person
because the mask has dropped, which they tend to do with
family members. So I, I think that it's
(25:38):
recognizing it is the first step, which is why I write a lot
about how to recognize the, the narcissism and different
personality styles. And it's not just that
monolithic, like, oh, they thinkthey're pretty great and they
brag a lot because it the variations, the subtle
variations are important becauseif you don't know how to
recognize it in different personality styles, you'll miss
it, right? And or dismiss it.
(26:00):
And I think, you know, especially if we're talking
about traditional kind of masculine, feminine roles and
relationships, you know, some characteristics that are
traditionally feminine can be sort of missed in terms of, you
know, if someone, you know, there's a personality style that
is super caregiving and nurturing and, you know, the
(26:23):
sort of motherly archetype, right?
But you know, the narcissistic kind of version of that is the
person can be very manipulative and smothering or sort of overly
prideful to the point of not being able to accept mistakes.
And so, so I just think understanding the nuance,
removing the shame of being in anarcissistic relationship
(26:44):
because it's not something you did to yourself, right, is, is
the first step. Sorry, that was a really long
way of getting to that. Yeah, that's I'm, I've seen that
a lot. And I'm glad you asked that
question. If someone is questioning
narcissistic trades in themselves, is that actually a
good sign that you if if you're concerned about being a
(27:05):
narcissist, you probably aren't?Right, yes, exactly.
That's what I've always told people.
If you can see the traits and and call it out in yourself,
that's that's usually a good sign because it means that it's
not what we call encapsulated narcissism, right.
It's not so much a part of your internal world that you can't
see it, right? Because if something is so much
(27:26):
a part of us, sometimes we can'tsee it and we need somebody else
to mirror back. If you can reflect and say, you
know, and that's why the first book I called the narcissist in
you and everyone else, because everyone is a little
narcissistic in there, right? We all have a little narcissist
in inside of us. You know, some people don't
know, some clinicians hate that I say that, but but it's true.
(27:48):
If you have an ego, which most humans do, if you have an ego,
then then you have the capacity to be narcissistic, right, or,
or selfish. It doesn't mean that it's all
the time. It doesn't mean that that's, you
know who you are every day of your life, but it does mean the
capacity is there. So if you can recognize it,
(28:08):
that's a good sign because it means that you're able to catch
yourself when you slip into, oh,I'm, I'm losing my empathy.
And sometimes there are, there are times in life when we need
to be about ourselves, right? We need to be our own champions
and we need to be the little selfish.
And that's that's OK. It's when we're doing that all
the time, or when we lose that empathy all the time, that it
(28:30):
becomes a problem. Has there been any research into
what sort of upbringing of environment is most likely to
create a full blown narcissist? Yeah, there there's a, there's
some interesting research, so I talk about in both books
actually, that it's more of a holistic thing that creates A
narcissistic style. So there's a biological
(28:50):
component. There's some research to suggest
that if you have a narcissistic parent, it could go either way.
You could either adapt those nurse or adopt those
narcissistic trades or you if there's a higher likelihood you
might have inherited some narcissistic trades or you'll
you know, you'll be super empathetic and you know,
probably more on the impact sideof things.
(29:12):
But so there's a biological component.
There's definitely a developmental thing that can
happen where depending on your upbringing, especially the way
there's some interesting research on parenting styles
and, and the parenting styles that can sort of produce more
narcissism, more permissive. I just sort of let my child do
whatever and I don't correct them and I tell them everything
(29:35):
they do is great. Generally isn't is a is a
disaster in terms of developing,not being able to have
appropriate self criticism or take other people's needs into
account. So, you know, that doesn't mean
that all those kids that are raised with that parenting style
are going to be narcissistic, but it does kind of ratchet up
(29:56):
the possibility of it being likethat.
Conversely, people that are overly authoritarian and
disciplinarian, that can also sometimes create help to create
narcissistic traits. So it's kind of like the perfect
storm of things coming together,right?
There's the biological component, there's the
developmental, there's the cultural upbringing kind of
(30:16):
situation. If you're raised in a very, I've
known and worked with a few people that have been sort of
brought up in really fundamentalist religious
situations, more so with the men, the women that can develop
kind of an acquired narcissistic.
I'm the superior being and you know, everything I should say,
should my family should do, but doesn't always mean that
(30:38):
person's narcissistic, but it can create like an overlay,
right, of narcissism because of how they grew up.
So, so yeah, it's a little bit of a perfect storm situation.
Sterling, tell me about your newest book, Center of the
Universe. OK, so center of the universe is
my the sequel to the my first book, the narcissist and you and
everyone else. So the first one is more of like
(30:58):
a a reference guide, if you will, for the different 27
subtypes. I talk about what narcissism is
and how to recognize these different subtypes.
And I use movies and some literary examples to to and case
studies to show that. And then the second one is more
of a, so that was more zoomed ininto the psychological
(31:19):
personality piece. This one, I zoom out and it's,
it's more looking at culturally,what you know, how how
narcissism effects not only the individual, but relationships,
work relationships, family, political system.
So I zoom all the way out to seethe ways because narcissism
isn't just, yes, it has, I thinkwhat most people think about her
(31:40):
is like being in a personal relationship or a familiar
relationship with a narcissist, but it has implications for the
whole culture, right? And, and if there's narcissistic
values sort of in place in different institutions, the, the
damage that that can cause. And so I talk a lot about, you
know, like social media culture and how it's made everyone a
(32:02):
little bit more narcissistic than we used to be, where, you
know, everybody has a platform and everybody thinks they should
be listened to. And, and they should on one
level. But but then on another level,
this this sort of entitlement oflike, I deserve an audience and
who's looking at my stories and all of that.
It's created a culture where narcissism is, is higher as a
(32:23):
cultural value. And so I talk about that in the
book and you know, I just I try to look at every facet, you
know, of human life in a succinct way to show how
narcissism effects each one of them.
So that's that was kind of the focus of center of the universe,
which is why I called it that, right?
Yeah, it's a great title. Thanks.
(32:45):
And what is one thing that you wish more men knew?
Oh, good question. I think, I think, I wish more
men knew that vulnerability is not weakness.
It is can be a strength and it sounds cliche because I'm sure
you've talked a lot about that, but but it's just, it bears
(33:07):
repeating, right? Because I think that someone who
studies narcissism and knows that the protection, I mean, we
all are hardwired to protect vulnerability.
But but it's also to me, it's the doorway into not only
greater self acceptance, but also like better relationships
with other people. And so I just, I wish that was
(33:27):
more mid new that that, that allowing in their own
learnability and showing it occasionally to people is is a
really beautiful thing. So yeah.
And finally, Sterling, where canpeople go to learn more about
you? What's the best way to connect
with you and all that you're doing?
Yeah, so my my website, sterlingmosley.com, my writing.
(33:50):
I I really want to sort of, I doa lot of writing on my sub
stack, Sterling mosley.substack.com and I have
lots of free articles and I havesome premium articles.
And so that's a good place to follow my work.
And then of course, you can get my books on Amazon or where
books are sold. So and then my Enneagram
business consulting business forpeople that are in the
personality typology is empathy architects.
(34:12):
So that those are a few places you can find.
Awesome. Thanks for joining us.
Thanks for sharing all of your insights, experience, expertise.
Hopefully we've got in a little less of the unbalanced,
scattered misnomers out there. Yeah, but you get a lot of work
out. Big thank you to Sterling Mosley
for helping us unpack narcissismin a way that goes deeper than
(34:34):
memes and headlines. Remember, growth starts with
awareness, whether it's in recognizing narcissistic traits
of somebody else or bravely noticing them in yourself.
If you'd like more real, honest conversations about masculinity,
emotions, and healing, join the authentic AF community at
realmenfield.org/group. And until next time.
(34:55):
Be good to yourself.
You're going to want to look for, for however long you've
known the person, a persistent inability to empathize with
other people in instances where they should now they can.
What's confusing is that narcissist can sometimes perform
empathy, or they seem like they're being empathetic, but
when the behavior doesn't match the words and you can usually
(00:23):
feel the incongruence between what they're saying and what
they actually feel. Hello and welcome to Real Men
Feel. I'm your host, author, coach,
and healer, Andy Grant. You can learn more about me at
the andygrant.com. Here in Real Men Feel, we have
conversations that most men are not having, but that all men and
the women who love them can benefit from.
Today, we're diving into a topicthat gets thrown around a lot
but is often misunderstood narcissism.
(00:46):
My guest is Sterling Mosley, a therapist, professor, and author
specializing in relationships, attachment, and personality
dynamics. We'll explore what narcissism
really means, how it shows up inmen and women, its impact on
relationships, and most importantly, what we can do
about it. If you want to continue
conversations like this, join our private community, Authentic
(01:07):
AF by visiting realmenfeel.org/group.
Let's do it. Hello Sterling, and welcome to
Real Men Feel. Hi, thank you for having me.
So I always like to start at thebasics and allow everybody get
on the same page. So could you tell us what
narcissism really is? Oh, big question right in front.
(01:31):
So, well, I think narcissism, I think there's the, the simplest
way to think about narcissism isthat it's the pervasive, long
standing meaning throughout mostof the lifespan.
A lot of it is empathy deficits.So most narcissistic people have
deficits in their ability to utilize empathy towards others.
Now they, it doesn't mean that they don't experience other
(01:53):
emotions, but empathy seems to be blunted and then just sort of
a kind of over focus on one's own needs, emotions, goals,
priorities over others, even when it would be beneficial to
them to focus on other people. So and I, you know, I often say
(02:14):
narcissism, of course there's clinical narcissism, which is,
you know what, most people feel uncomfortable calling people a
narcissist like, well, I'm not qualified to diagnose
narcissism. And I, you know, I always tell
people most narcissists don't end up in therapy anyway, which
is why the diagnosis rate is so low, because if you think you're
pretty great, you're probably not going to go and have someone
(02:36):
tell you you're not. So, so there's clinical
narcissism, which is technicallyvery rare because of the low
diagnosis. And then there's just everyday
kind of narcissism, which is what most people are going to
encounter. So, but at its root, those are
the kind of two things I always point people to and over focus
on oneself and an inability to feel vulnerability or allow
vulnerability. And then the the lack of
(02:58):
empathy. So is it that over focus on
oneself? That is kind of the difference
between a healthy self-confidence and narcissism.
Yes, exactly. Yeah.
I mean, any one of us can feel proud of ourselves or even have
days where we're, you know, maybe a little boastful or
arrogant or selfish, right. And that doesn't make you a
(03:19):
narcissist. But.
But narcissistic people have a sort of chronic or pervasive
need to protect what actually isa very fragile ego structure
underneath the bravado and bluster and arrogance.
And so because of that, they, they really, the, the, it's like
they're putting on like a suit of armor and they just keep
(03:41):
putting on different pieces of armor, right?
And, and so then eventually theybecome impenetrable to not only
their own vulnerability touchingother people, but other people's
touching them. And so, So what happens is that
the, they become sort of a fortress of their own making,
right? Because they're trying to
protect this very kind of raw, vulnerable parts of themselves
(04:04):
that we all have. But for them, it's unacceptable
to allow that part to be seen tothe world, unless their
narcissism is about how vulnerable and, and you know,
weak and all that they are. That is a form of narcissism,
but for the most part, most of them, that's what allows them or
does not allow them to connect with other people.
Because really narcissism is kind of a a relational disorder,
(04:28):
I guess we could say over and it's personality one, but it
also effects other people, so. So typically a narcissist would
not see any of this as a problem.
Yeah, not really. Usually narcissistic people
don't think of themselves being the problem, right?
By the nature of the way that their ego functions, it has to
(04:49):
be someone else, right? It has to be someone else's
faults. It has to be someone else's
problem. Because to admit that it's their
problem means there's something wrong with them and there can't
be anything wrong so. I'm sure you are aware there's a
lot of buzz and narcissism really is such a thrown about
term online. How is it being overused or
(05:11):
misused in your opinion? It's getting thrown around a
lot, which I guess was good for me 'cause I was able to get my
books published. But then at the same time it's
frustrating because it's being used in situations where it
shouldn't be. I think a lot of people think,
oh, someone's just confident or has charisma.
(05:32):
I saw a reel on Instagram or something that you know someone
was talking about. If someone has charisma, then
they definitely are narcissist. And I was like God.
So it's definitely not that I think, I think the confusion is
ironically that because of the age of social media and instant
information and instant experts,that's created a kind of in a
(05:56):
weird way, narcissistic society where everybody thinks they're
experts. And so they, without really
consuming or learning or going in depth about what narcissism
is, they sort of cherry pick traits, throw them in a basket
and say, well, this is narcissism, right?
So it, it is overused. And, and then on the other hand,
(06:17):
I'm glad that there's awareness about narcissism growing.
I just wish that there was more accuracy in the dissemination of
it. And what first drew you into
wanting to be an an expert or atleast study narcissism?
Well, I have some personal experience with narcissists in
my life and my family and in professional situations I've
(06:40):
encountered some narcissism. And so I have first hand
experience with the effects of narcissism, especially in the
familial context where it's sortof pervasive and long standing
throughout your life. And then actually I didn't
really get interested in narcissism specifically until
maybe about four or five years ago.
(07:00):
I mean, it's, I've sort of touched on and off.
I studied my master's program, Istudied counseling, and so I was
very into personality typologies.
And one of my other passions is the Enneagram, which is, you
know, the 9 personality types. But when I was studying that, I
sort of knew that, well, you know, if you have these nine
different kind of ego fixations,overarching ego fixations, you
(07:23):
know, there has to be a form of narcissism that shows up in each
one of those. And actually there's 27
variations of the nine types. So then my first book was the 27
Types of Narcissism. So I actually mapped out of
these 27 different subtypes, which map to the Enneagram.
But at its very basic level, oneof the things that I encountered
when I was starting to get really interested in personality
(07:45):
disorders was that a lot of narcissistic research kind of
had one personality type of narcissism, right?
The grandiose, boastful narcissist.
And that's just one flavour of narcissism.
And I said, you know, there's lots of different ways
narcissism can show up. Narcissism itself isn't a
personality type, right? It isn't a personality style,
(08:06):
but it is like an overlay that you can put on anyone's
personality depending on who they are.
So that that kind of sparked my interest in wanting to learn
about narcissism more deeply andgetting really involved with it.
Also, with 27 different types ofnarcissism, are there particular
types that are more common? No, so there's the the without
(08:32):
getting too in the weed 27, there's there's the over what I
call sub variants of narcissism,which are sort of a prelude to
the 27. So the sub variants of
narcissism are the ones that people usually know.
That's like the grandiose narcissist, the vulnerable
narcissist. There's there's nine of those
that I outlined. So there's grandiose, there's
vulnerable, there's the intellectual narcissist, right?
(08:53):
That some people don't think about.
This is the person that thinks they're the greatest mind in the
world, right? And that everyone is, they may
overestimate their intelligence or their IQ or they think all of
their contributions, intellectual contributions are,
you know, the greatest, but theymay not look like what
narcissist, what people think a narcissist should look, should
look like. They don't focus as much on
(09:15):
their appearance. They may be less physically
vain. They may not care about
popularity in the same way. So and then there's like the
benign narcissist, right? That is actually the most common
that most people will encounter.And that's the one that flies
under the radar. So sometimes we call that the
nice narcissist. And it's somebody who thinks
that they're, you know, generally they're easier to be
(09:37):
around. They can be a lot of fun.
There's a lot of histrionic features that go into that where
they, there's, but they're superficial, right?
They, they just skin the surfaceof things.
If something's wrong or someone's upset, they can't
really relate or they don't wantto or they will.
I've known a nice narcissist that pull back from people
during like grief or depression or illness, right?
(09:57):
Where they're like, I don't wantto deal with that.
It's negative, right? Well, somebody that has that
toxic positivity that can sometimes be the nice
narcissist. So that's actually a more common
one that people think. So, So there's these sort of
overarching subvariants. I'd say the most common one, the
nice narcissist or benign narcissist, slides under the
radar a lot. The grandiose is the one that
(10:19):
people will recognize the most. The malignant is the one that
people are scared of, right? Because there's sort of
psychopathic features involved with that.
They can be violent or aggressive.
So I wouldn't necessarily say 1 is more common as much as I
would say 1 is. Some of them are more
recognizable to other people than the other the other ones.
(10:42):
Do you see narcissism showing upin different ways for men versus
women? Good question.
Yes, yes, I think that in certainly in our society, in
American or and Western culture and throughout Europe, you know
the sort of masculine, the the favouring of, you know,
(11:04):
masculinity and maleness and those cultures, many cultures
throughout the world. I think it allows for male
narcissists to, they tend to be more overt with their
narcissistic characteristics. Sometimes those traits sort of
coalesce with stereotypical ideas of masculinity, right?
Being authoritative and strong and saying what you want and all
(11:28):
of that. And so sometimes that cultural
overlay can mask narcissism or vice versa.
So whereas women, you know, I see a lot of defaulting to the
benign nice narcissism or the communal narcissist, which is
the, the kind that wants to be benevolent and seen as helpful.
And you see a lot of that philanthropy work in the
(11:51):
malignant narcissist definitely shows up more with men in my in
my work, in my case studies. So yeah, I think that the
expectation of what masculinity and femininity is absolutely
shapes the way that somebody thethe way that they feel
comfortable performing their narcissism out out in the world.
Whereas women may suppress or hide some of the narcissistic
(12:13):
traits more because of the culture, right.
And and what's expected of womenand what's expected of men.
That's a really good question. Yeah, right.
So since what is often expected of men or the the stereotypical
view of masculinity being strongand dominant and kind of denying
your emotions, does that push men into becoming narcissists or
(12:37):
or do they have narcissism almost as another mask that they
wear? So I talked about this in my
second book a little bit, the gender kind of question, and I
think it's very nuanced, right? I think that masculinity
stereotypical or definitely toxic masculinity, I think the
(12:57):
kind of person especially that'sattracted to the more toxic
presentation of masculinity, theyou know, the I've got to be
overtly aggressive and take whatI want and don't show
vulnerability. I think the person that's
attracted to that kind of masculine display probably has
higher cystic traits. It's mirroring how they feel
(13:20):
internally. Whereas I've known of men who
have tried to adopt that way of being and it it kind of works,
but it also feels incongruent. And so you can always kind of
tell that like this person doesn't really, that's not their
natural mode of being right now.If you, you know, adopt A
masculinity script, either from maybe you're, you got a parent
(13:42):
or caregiver who pushed that on you or peers, you know, over
time, there's something what we call acquired narcissism.
And you can kind of acquire, even if they weren't innate, you
can kind of acquire narcissistictraits by being around certain
groups of people that have, you know, narcissistic values or
things like that. So I think that I think that
(14:06):
masculinity does real masculinity, which I'm sure
you've talked a lot of stuff on your show, it doesn't have
anything to do with, you know, dominating everybody and all of
that, right? Allows full, full vulnerability
and feeling, right? And whereas the sort of
performative kinds of masculinity that are, in my
(14:27):
opinion, outdated, I think it does have a lot of narcissistic
traits. So it there's kind of a chicken
or egg thing happening there. But I do think if you have
higher narcissistic traits, you're going to be attracted to,
and there's lots of research on this, right?
Certain ideologies over others, right?
Ones that don't, where you don'tshow empathy to others, where
(14:48):
showing that kind of care is weakness, You know, being
vulnerable is weak, dominating people.
If you're attracted to those values, you probably already
have higher narcissism innate. But it just sound like at least
some people can develop more narcissistic traits as they grow
up and are influenced by by society or wanting to fit in and
(15:09):
whatever group they're they're running with, right?
Does that mean that someone that's narcissistic can change
for the better? Like, you know, is it treatable?
That, yeah, there, there's kind of mixed research about that
there there's some emerging therapeutic techniques and that
just take a long time. And I've worked with
narcissistic people and and coaching.
(15:31):
And what I will say is that whatalmost all, not all, but many
narcissists can learn how different strategies for dealing
with people. Because what often happens with
narcissists is they, especially if it's, you know, significant
enough because you know, there'sspectrum is that there, there
comes a point in their lives where they're encountering a lot
(15:52):
of resistance to their lives, towhatever they want to do because
people are in conflict with themor they're getting relationships
are ending. Children are not talking to
them. You know, they're losing jobs.
And so sometimes those things will push someone who's
narcissistic into a therapeutic situation, right?
Either coaching or therapy. Now they don't come saying I'm
(16:14):
narcissistic and help if they usually come because other
people are telling them like, I can't live or work with you
anymore. And so therefore they're not
getting their needs met or they're not.
They're losing relationships andthey're experiencing anxiety,
depression. You know, they still have those
human things that happened to them.
(16:36):
So often times what they can learn are strategies for how to
actually talk to people, how to even if they're not feeling
empathy for someone else, how tostop and ask, you know, like,
what are you feeling? How do you feel or saying, I'm
sorry that happened? And that can be really hard.
And it takes a long time for them to be able to do those
(16:58):
things because a lot of those things, too many narcissists
signal weakness. Now, some narcissists are really
good at saying I'm sorry and notmeaning it right and then just
repeating the behaviour. But some of them aren't.
And so they can learn strategiesfor interpersonal growth or to
help their relationships, but itdoesn't always mean that they're
(17:18):
changing their internal experience.
There's certain life events, I think with people.
I have a family member who spentmost of their life being very
narcissistic and they're, you know, in their 90s now and
they've softened a lot. Now there's some, you know,
memory loss and, and dementia there.
So I'm like, well, maybe they just forgot their defense
(17:39):
strategies. But whatever the case, that's
it's shifted them a lot. And so sometimes life and things
that happen to people can't chipaway at that armour I was
talking about so. So it it sounds like it's again,
he said. No one's ever like I'm feeling.
I'm struggling with my narcissism.
I'm able to get help. It's more I need help dealing
with all these weird people getting in my way in the life I
(18:01):
want to live. Exactly, exactly right, Yeah,
there are some narcissists that that are self aware that you can
there's like youtubes of narcissism.
I've, I've met and worked with acouple and that's different
because they're like, yeah, I know, I know, I you know, and
there it is a little bit better in a weird way because there's
something about the self-awareness that helps them
(18:23):
to mitigate the behavior, but it's still there.
So yeah. Still, and what is some red
flags for people to be on the lookout for, perhaps in
hindsight or or present day, that their romantic,
professional or family based relationship might be with a
narcissist? Good question.
(18:44):
So I think again, you're going to want to look for for however
long you've known the person, a persistent inability to
empathize with other people in instances where they should now
they can. What's confusing is that
narcissist can sometimes performempathy or they seem like
(19:05):
they're being empathetic, but when the behavior doesn't match
the words and you can usually feel the incongruence between
what they're saying and what they actually feel.
So that's that's one of the first things and then
manipulation. So if you find yourself in a
relationship with someone who either when you leave their
presence, you're doubting yourself, right?
(19:25):
Because they probably gaslightedyou about your reality or you
know, what you feel or what you think.
That's often a good indication is if you walk away thinking,
well, I went in there to talk about this and then I left
feeling like guilty for having this issue or, you know, somehow
it got turned around on me. If that happens a lot, that's a
(19:49):
red flag. That's something to look at.
I would also say somebody who, especially in a romantic
relationship, narcissistic people tend to default to
controlling and even well in allrelationships but.
You notice it a lot in romantic relationships, but in families
also where they want to control what you, you know, do or say or
(20:10):
how you present to the world because you are an extension of
them. So you don't get to be your own
person. You have to reflect whatever
image that they want to reflect in the world.
And I, I've heard this a lot from people that have
narcissistic parents and I've, I've seen that in, in my own
family system. And so that that's a big red
flag. And then in relationships, it
(20:31):
can be more overt to the point where this person wants to tell
you what to wear and you know, what to eat and all of that.
So, so there's a selfishness of self absorption that doesn't go
away, right? It's, it's almost there all the
time. But what people do is they hang
on to the moments when it's not there, right?
(20:51):
And they're like, well, but whenthey're not doing that, they're
really sweet or whatever, which is fine.
And that sometimes can keep people in a relationship with
someone they care about. But it's important to note that
if it's there more often than not, then you know that that's a
big red flag. But yeah, things like
gaslighting frequently, which people?
That's another word that's thrown around all the time,
(21:12):
right? And what gaslighting is, is
trying to convince you out of your reality, your feelings or
your thoughts. It's not when two people
misremember or remember a situation differently, right?
Because I hear I, my students dothat where they're like, well,
he was gaslighting me. I'm like, say more, what do you
mean? And usually it's like, well, we
(21:32):
disagreed about what happened. And I'm like, no, that's just a
disagreement. That's not gaslighting.
Maybe that person remembers it differently.
But if the person is trying to convince you that the way that
they remembered thing or the what you're feeling isn't what
you're feeling, yes, then we cantalk about the term gaslighting.
But I like to always clear that one up because people throw it
(21:53):
around a lot and it it it loses its meaning and impact.
So yeah. Yeah, no, I, I appreciate that.
So, so thanks. So I'll, I hear from a lot of
men that will be in a relationship and recognize the
gaslighting happening to them and the control and the
narcissistic tendencies and their partner, but they've never
(22:13):
heard of this happening to men. So that makes them shut down and
not seek help too. So if if a man is hearing this
conversation or reading your book and realizing, wow, I might
be in a relationship with a narcissist, what's some advice
for them? Yeah, it can be a challenge, I
think for men sometimes to recognize narcissistic abuse in
(22:35):
a relationship because to recognize abuse I think at all
for many men in relationships can bring up that, well.
I'm a man and why would I get abused, right?
And if there's that shame around, you know, either being
vulnerable or some people make it, you know, I was naive.
I should have known better. And that that's none of that is
true, right? Because anybody can get in a
(22:57):
relationship or dynamic with someone narcissistic.
And before you know it, you're in it.
And so I think first it's being able to recognize that it
doesn't mean that there's anything wrong with you or
you're, you know, less of a man or less masculine just because
you are in a narcissistic dynamic.
So, so removing the shame piece is first and foremost because I
(23:21):
have seen that come up a lot with men that I've known and men
that I've worked with where admitting that there's even a, a
possibility that they could get in that dynamic and not
recognize it or notice it sometimes that's the first
barrier. So it's going to be, it's
challenging for anybody to recognize that they maybe are in
a relationship with a narcissistic person, especially
(23:44):
if you love the person or you'remarried to them or you have
children with them, right? And because what is a normal
part of recognizing narcissism in a relationship is there's
that feeling of like, OK, well then who have I been in a
relationship with? Like who is this person really?
And usually those thoughts have come up before and the person
has pushed it down, right. I, I knew someone who was, has
(24:07):
been married narcissist for mostof their lives and they're in
their 60s, seventies. And, you know, he said one day I
just, you know, my wife acts completely differently in public
than she does at home. And, you know, everybody thinks
she, she's so nice and great andwonderful.
And then she comes home and she's cold and everything's
(24:29):
wrong and she's always criticizing me.
One day he just said, like, who,who, which one am I married to?
Like which one is the actual person He was like we'd see
glimpse of that at home. And and there's like sometimes
there's like a creepy feeling for people because it's like, I
don't even know, you know, who this person is or who they
really are. And it's because they don't know
who they are. And so I always tell them like,
(24:53):
it's what you're experiencing orwhat people are interacting with
with the narcissist, except in some very, you know, key
vulnerable moments in their life.
What you're interacting with is the armor is the like a shell or
an image of a person that they've just inhabited and
they've abandoned their own depth.
So, so you, you aren't really interacting with the person,
(25:17):
right? You're interacting with the, the
sort of image of the person which changes and shifts.
But I usually say what, you know, when everything's wrong
and you know, you can't do anything right.
And they don't like anything that's closer to the real person
because the mask has dropped, which they tend to do with
family members. So I, I think that it's
(25:38):
recognizing it is the first step, which is why I write a lot
about how to recognize the, the narcissism and different
personality styles. And it's not just that
monolithic, like, oh, they thinkthey're pretty great and they
brag a lot because it the variations, the subtle
variations are important becauseif you don't know how to
recognize it in different personality styles, you'll miss
it, right? And or dismiss it.
(26:00):
And I think, you know, especially if we're talking
about traditional kind of masculine, feminine roles and
relationships, you know, some characteristics that are
traditionally feminine can be sort of missed in terms of, you
know, if someone, you know, there's a personality style that
is super caregiving and nurturing and, you know, the
(26:23):
sort of motherly archetype, right?
But you know, the narcissistic kind of version of that is the
person can be very manipulative and smothering or sort of overly
prideful to the point of not being able to accept mistakes.
And so, so I just think understanding the nuance,
removing the shame of being in anarcissistic relationship
(26:44):
because it's not something you did to yourself, right, is, is
the first step. Sorry, that was a really long
way of getting to that. Yeah, that's I'm, I've seen that
a lot. And I'm glad you asked that
question. If someone is questioning
narcissistic trades in themselves, is that actually a
good sign that you if if you're concerned about being a
(27:05):
narcissist, you probably aren't?Right, yes, exactly.
That's what I've always told people.
If you can see the traits and and call it out in yourself,
that's that's usually a good sign because it means that it's
not what we call encapsulated narcissism, right.
It's not so much a part of your internal world that you can't
see it, right? Because if something is so much
(27:26):
a part of us, sometimes we can'tsee it and we need somebody else
to mirror back. If you can reflect and say, you
know, and that's why the first book I called the narcissist in
you and everyone else, because everyone is a little
narcissistic in there, right? We all have a little narcissist
in inside of us. You know, some people don't
know, some clinicians hate that I say that, but but it's true.
(27:48):
If you have an ego, which most humans do, if you have an ego,
then then you have the capacity to be narcissistic, right, or,
or selfish. It doesn't mean that it's all
the time. It doesn't mean that that's, you
know who you are every day of your life, but it does mean the
capacity is there. So if you can recognize it,
(28:08):
that's a good sign because it means that you're able to catch
yourself when you slip into, oh,I'm, I'm losing my empathy.
And sometimes there are, there are times in life when we need
to be about ourselves, right? We need to be our own champions
and we need to be the little selfish.
And that's that's OK. It's when we're doing that all
the time, or when we lose that empathy all the time, that it
(28:30):
becomes a problem. Has there been any research into
what sort of upbringing of environment is most likely to
create a full blown narcissist? Yeah, there there's a, there's
some interesting research, so I talk about in both books
actually, that it's more of a holistic thing that creates A
narcissistic style. So there's a biological
(28:50):
component. There's some research to suggest
that if you have a narcissistic parent, it could go either way.
You could either adapt those nurse or adopt those
narcissistic trades or you if there's a higher likelihood you
might have inherited some narcissistic trades or you'll
you know, you'll be super empathetic and you know,
probably more on the impact sideof things.
(29:12):
But so there's a biological component.
There's definitely a developmental thing that can
happen where depending on your upbringing, especially the way
there's some interesting research on parenting styles
and, and the parenting styles that can sort of produce more
narcissism, more permissive. I just sort of let my child do
whatever and I don't correct them and I tell them everything
(29:35):
they do is great. Generally isn't is a is a
disaster in terms of developing,not being able to have
appropriate self criticism or take other people's needs into
account. So, you know, that doesn't mean
that all those kids that are raised with that parenting style
are going to be narcissistic, but it does kind of ratchet up
(29:56):
the possibility of it being likethat.
Conversely, people that are overly authoritarian and
disciplinarian, that can also sometimes create help to create
narcissistic traits. So it's kind of like the perfect
storm of things coming together,right?
There's the biological component, there's the
developmental, there's the cultural upbringing kind of
(30:16):
situation. If you're raised in a very, I've
known and worked with a few people that have been sort of
brought up in really fundamentalist religious
situations, more so with the men, the women that can develop
kind of an acquired narcissistic.
I'm the superior being and you know, everything I should say,
should my family should do, but doesn't always mean that
(30:38):
person's narcissistic, but it can create like an overlay,
right, of narcissism because of how they grew up.
So, so yeah, it's a little bit of a perfect storm situation.
Sterling, tell me about your newest book, Center of the
Universe. OK, so center of the universe is
my the sequel to the my first book, the narcissist and you and
everyone else. So the first one is more of like
(30:58):
a a reference guide, if you will, for the different 27
subtypes. I talk about what narcissism is
and how to recognize these different subtypes.
And I use movies and some literary examples to to and case
studies to show that. And then the second one is more
of a, so that was more zoomed ininto the psychological
(31:19):
personality piece. This one, I zoom out and it's,
it's more looking at culturally,what you know, how how
narcissism effects not only the individual, but relationships,
work relationships, family, political system.
So I zoom all the way out to seethe ways because narcissism
isn't just, yes, it has, I thinkwhat most people think about her
(31:40):
is like being in a personal relationship or a familiar
relationship with a narcissist, but it has implications for the
whole culture, right? And, and if there's narcissistic
values sort of in place in different institutions, the, the
damage that that can cause. And so I talk a lot about, you
know, like social media culture and how it's made everyone a
(32:02):
little bit more narcissistic than we used to be, where, you
know, everybody has a platform and everybody thinks they should
be listened to. And, and they should on one
level. But but then on another level,
this this sort of entitlement oflike, I deserve an audience and
who's looking at my stories and all of that.
It's created a culture where narcissism is, is higher as a
(32:23):
cultural value. And so I talk about that in the
book and you know, I just I try to look at every facet, you
know, of human life in a succinct way to show how
narcissism effects each one of them.
So that's that was kind of the focus of center of the universe,
which is why I called it that, right?
Yeah, it's a great title. Thanks.
(32:45):
And what is one thing that you wish more men knew?
Oh, good question. I think, I think, I wish more
men knew that vulnerability is not weakness.
It is can be a strength and it sounds cliche because I'm sure
you've talked a lot about that, but but it's just, it bears
(33:07):
repeating, right? Because I think that someone who
studies narcissism and knows that the protection, I mean, we
all are hardwired to protect vulnerability.
But but it's also to me, it's the doorway into not only
greater self acceptance, but also like better relationships
with other people. And so I just, I wish that was
(33:27):
more mid new that that, that allowing in their own
learnability and showing it occasionally to people is is a
really beautiful thing. So yeah.
And finally, Sterling, where canpeople go to learn more about
you? What's the best way to connect
with you and all that you're doing?
Yeah, so my my website, sterlingmosley.com, my writing.
(33:50):
I I really want to sort of, I doa lot of writing on my sub
stack, Sterling mosley.substack.com and I have
lots of free articles and I havesome premium articles.
And so that's a good place to follow my work.
And then of course, you can get my books on Amazon or where
books are sold. So and then my Enneagram
business consulting business forpeople that are in the
personality typology is empathy architects.
(34:12):
So that those are a few places you can find.
Awesome. Thanks for joining us.
Thanks for sharing all of your insights, experience, expertise.
Hopefully we've got in a little less of the unbalanced,
scattered misnomers out there. Yeah, but you get a lot of work
out. Big thank you to Sterling Mosley
for helping us unpack narcissismin a way that goes deeper than
(34:34):
memes and headlines. Remember, growth starts with
awareness, whether it's in recognizing narcissistic traits
of somebody else or bravely noticing them in yourself.
If you'd like more real, honest conversations about masculinity,
emotions, and healing, join the authentic AF community at
realmenfield.org/group. And until next time.
(34:55):
Be good to yourself.
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