August 15, 2025 • 27 mins
Embracing Vulnerability: A New Vision for Men's Mental Health
In this episode of Real Men Feel, host Andy Grant welcomes therapist, author, and speaker Ethan Getchell. After a personal tragedy with the suicide of his younger brother Austin, Ethan shifted his career to focus on men's mental health. He discusses the importance of vulnerability, the impact of digital relationships, the challenges young men face today, and the differences between therapy and coaching.
Ethan also shares insights into his journey through grief and his mission to turn pain into purpose while advocating for emotional vulnerability as a strength for men.
00:00 The Power of Vulnerability
00:27 Introduction to Real Men Feel
00:33 Meet Ethan Getchell
01:11 A Personal Journey into Mental Health
01:42 The Silent Suffering of Young Men
03:53 The Turning Point: Embracing Therapy
08:00 Challenges in Men's Mental Health
10:59 A New Vision for Masculinity
11:57 Coaching vs. Therapy
14:33 Advice for the Hopeless and Helpless
16:15 Supporting Someone Not Ready for Help
19:05 Turning Pain into Purpose
20:26 Ethan's Book: Things In My Pocket
22:52 Hope for Men's Mental Health Movement
24:02 Final Thoughts and Connection
Connect with Ethan
Ethan Getchell — https://heyman.pro/
LinkedIn — http://www.linkedin.com/in/ethangetchell
Instagram — https://www.instagram.com/ethangetchell/
Resources
Of Boys and Men by Richard Reeves — https://amzn.to/4fCZVO3
The Anxious Generation by Jonoath Haidt — https://amzn.to/4fzazWa
Things In My Pocket by Ethan Getchell — https://amzn.to/4lpvVXd
Substack — https://ethangetchell.substack.com/
Connect with Andy and the Real Men Feel Podcast:
Join other like-minded men in the
Authentic AF Community | http://realmenfeel.org/group
Instagram | @realmenfeelshow & @theandygrant
Andy Grant Website | https://theandygrant.com for coaching, healing, and book info!
Real Men Feel Website | http://realmenfeel.org
YouTube | https://youtube.com/realmenfeel
#RealMenFeel ep 366
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
If I sum it down to one word, it's vulnerability.
Like if we want to try to tacklethis mantle and these, this idea
of being siloed, being individualized, we have to take
off our armor. Like to be vulnerable means to
be open to being wounded. And we as men really don't like
(00:22):
that idea of letting our guard down, of letting people in.
Welcome to Real Men Feel. I'm your host, Andy Grant.
Today's conversation is a powerful one.
I'm joined by therapist, author,and speaker Ethan Getchel, who
brings a deeply personal lens tomen's mental health.
After losing his younger brotherto suicide, Ethan made a bold
(00:43):
career shift into mental health counseling.
He now focuses on helping young men navigate grief, depression,
and the pressure of being a man today.
If you've ever felt like you hadto act like you've got it all
figured out, this episode is foryou.
And if you're looking for more real talk and connection with
like minded men, check out the authentic AF community at
(01:03):
realmenfield.org/group. It's a space to be seen,
supported, and real. Let's do it now.
Even I know that your career path into therapy was a deeply
personal 1. So can let's start off.
Can you tell me a bit about yourbrother Austin?
Yes, absolutely. My name's Ethan.
(01:24):
I'm in clinical social work. I'm in a depression and suicide
clinic. Before I was doing that, I was
on track to go into commercial real estate.
And prior to that I was going toHope College for business and
communication. And it was in my junior year at
(01:45):
Hope that my youngest brother, Austin died by suicide.
And that was the first time I was really exposed to the silent
suffering that young men go through.
So really since that day, I havekind of grown this passion
(02:06):
through my own grieving journey to my own struggles, and then
also kind of seeing what Austin went through or not seeing what
Austin went through. And that's really driven me to
pursue this career path. And how old was Austin?
He was 16. And had you had any idea that he
was struggling at all? No.
(02:28):
And you know, in hindsight, it'salways 2020.
We try to put the dots together and come up with, like, what
could have been happening there.I have another brother, Hayden,
So there's three of us. I'm the oldest of three
brothers, and Hayden and I are very similar, more extroverted,
(02:49):
spend more time outside. Austin was a redhead, so he was
kind of naturally more introverted, kind of avoided the
sun. He liked video games more.
So there was kind of that dissonance growing up where we'd
be like, hey, let's go outside. Like, no, I want to stay inside.
So kind of just like a little natural disposition that we kind
(03:10):
of just embraced and kind of lethim be.
But again, in hindsight, it's like we just wonder, was that a
factor? Was he spending too much time
alone? Was he spending time online
looking at whatever? Like pretty unfiltered,
uncontrolled. So we speculate things, but
there was no explicit like, hey,I'm feeling this way.
(03:31):
No history of mental health issues really.
Kind of your your cookie cutter kind of normal guy when you kind
of think of one in your head. Was there a specific moment that
you realized you really wanted to be of service and and change
your career? Yeah, it was.
(03:51):
The first thought was like 8-9 months into my own grieving.
So this was my junior year. I finished out the semester.
I contemplated going back senioryear or taking like a gap year
but really wanted to finish my schooling out.
So got started senior year and just like realized how hard it
(04:14):
was to like grieve and grow as this new person.
Like I was very changed after Austin passed.
And so that was the first time that I started going to therapy
and wrestling with these hard questions and really fell in
love with therapy, which is funny because I was someone that
prior to that was like, people don't need therapy.
(04:34):
That's not a thing. Like I have friends, family,
like you shouldn't need therapy.And then to have that really 180
after Austin passed. And so to have a good
experience, to see what Austin was going through and also was
just like a knowledge pursuer, Istarted reading books.
(04:55):
So I read of Boys and Men by Richard Reeves and it really
just like called to attention. Like Austin's not the only one
going through this. This is actually like a really
big issue. So I really felt like I wanted
to use my strengths and gifts and passions and energy to
pursue this head on. The the, the notion that nobody
(05:17):
needs therapy. What was that something that was
just told to you? Or is that just because you
didn't see anybody in your environment going to therapy?
Probably a little bit of both. I didn't really see anybody in
my community go to therapy. I'm from a really small rural
town of like 3000 people. So it was kind of like either
(05:38):
you are OK, you look OK or you or you don't talk about it.
And so growing up, there was an emphasis on like physical
health. And if you were taking care of
yourself physically and you looked good, then you know, that
should be a sign that you feel good.
Your mental health is good. You know, I now know that that's
silly. But so there was an emphasis on
eating healthy and working out, but there was never really
(06:01):
explicit talk around like mentalhealth.
And there's some new challenges today that my parents didn't
face, technology and social communications and things like
that. And so there is a lot of
unknown. One of the things we hold on to
is like, we did the best we could with the information that
we had. And we're kind of at this new
(06:22):
frontier coming out of pandemic AI technology.
Like all these things are impacting young minds so much.
And that's been like a real curiosity, right?
In regards to your own grieving,what was there something that
helped you the most that you would like to share with others?
(06:43):
You know, my life's kind of beena series of like trial and error
and you have to really figure itout.
One of those trial and errors was like trying to grieve on my
own with without help. And that really landed me
feeling weak, really landed me like.
And there is one moment specifically that like my
(07:04):
brother Hayden, who really, we have a good, really good
relationship. He he kind of called me out.
He's like, Ethan, you're, you'renot leaving your room.
Like you're looking a little softer.
You're not working out. So really these mental health
things had transitioned and started affecting my physical
health pieces. And so when I saw that, I looked
in the mirror, I was like, wow, yeah, yeah.
(07:25):
I can't keep just trying to pushthrough this head on stubbornly
and not get help. And so I think that's a piece of
grief where I really learned that it it's communal and it
takes having people around and one of the themes of all of
these things, suicide, grief, success in general, to having
(07:46):
people around you. Yeah, yeah, that's what I find
time and time again, how important community is for the
highs and lows of life. Like we're we're not meant to be
isolated beings. What are some of the biggest
mental health challenges that you see for young men today?
(08:07):
Oh, man, you know, a lot of things aren't changed.
So there's still like financial aspirations, sense of purpose.
Like I think that's one that's kind of transcends time.
It's kind of always been around,but I think these new pieces are
more of emotionally connecting with people.
(08:29):
Relationships. Well, you know, those are still
also older issues, but I think the more recent implications and
struggles are relationships withtechnology and a lot of things
are more digital. And it's complicated because
like with Austin, he had some ofhis deepest friendships, but
they're people that he played video games together with all
(08:50):
day. So it's like you can look at
playing video games all day as anegative thing, but then you see
the relationships he's building,and that's a positive thing.
And so you have this new frontier of relationships in the
digital age, vulnerability, pornography, like exposure to
things, so many things that you know it it, it can be
(09:10):
overwhelming. And what do you think men in
particular struggle to seek helpto open up around depression or
suicidal thoughts? It's uncomfortable, it's second
nature, it's not natural there. There are these big messages out
there to figure it out yourself,to be very individualized, be
(09:35):
siloed, and I think a lot of these really strong messages
that are, that are prevalent historically are really getting
in the way of people connecting with others.
And in your work, what signals or signs that someone needs
support? Do you see that families and
friends are missing? You know, sometimes you get the
(09:59):
overt, very clear signs of depression, anxiety, things like
that. Someone said overwhelming
thoughts. Sometimes you get that cookie
cutter kind of symptom. Other times it's not so clear.
You get young guys who are really deeply obsessed with a
hobby or a job or a singular relationship or gambling or
(10:25):
substance use. And often times it takes more of
a covert form where it may not necessarily seem like a bad
thing that they're spending all day on video games or they're
spending all day working on thisproject.
But it's this idea of like losing balance.
And when that one thing is takenaway, which is kind of their
crutch holding them up from these typical depression
(10:48):
symptoms. The problem is once they lose
that thing, then they don't know.
They don't have anything else torely on.
And that's what they kind of fall into, deeper forms of
depression, suicidality, things like that.
I've seen some of your writings.You you talk about a new vision
for masculinity. What does that look like to you?
I think like if I sum it down toone word, it's vulnerability.
(11:11):
Like if we want to try to tacklethis mantle, these, this idea of
being siloed, being individualized, we have to take
off our armor. Like, to be vulnerable means to
be open to being wounded. And we as men really don't like
that idea of letting our guard down, of letting people in, of
(11:37):
potentially getting hurt by people.
But it's in that pain, in that vulnerability and those moments
where you allow yourself to possibly get wounded, that you
connect with people and you build support and you have
multiple structures so that if you lose 1, it doesn't leave you
falling and crashing and burning.
(11:58):
Now you offer coaching as well as therapy, is that right?
Yeah, a little bit. So I'm primarily at the hospital
and but on the side I'll try help a a guy or two if I can if
it fits in my schedule. And and how are those two
approaches different? They're very similar in that I
try to show up as a human and just really humanize the
(12:20):
experience. Therapy is a little bit
different because it's typicallyhigher acuity, it's more
structured. People are being referred from
their doctors and they had usually it's a paired with
medication management, things like that.
So it's more, at least with the practice that I met, it's more
(12:42):
hospitalized. So you're coming in, you have
this diagnosis, we're going to treat it with this modality and
we're going to try to help you feel better with coaching.
It's usually like you would imagine coaching in other
aspects. So I've, I've been on high
school sports teams, things likethat.
(13:03):
And, and a coach is really someone to say, hey, you're on
this path. You kind of know where you want
to get to you. You have these hiccups, you have
these obstacles, you're looking for a second opinion, you're
looking for maybe some structure, you're looking for
some feedback and I can help walk with you and can offer that
for you. So a little bit of different
(13:24):
spin, but essentially like there's a lot of similarities.
Yeah, in in my experience as as a coach, some of this been
coached. Has some of this been in
therapy? I found that in therapy it was
more listening where where a coach will will can like offer
more will actually like push me to take some actions perhaps.
(13:46):
Does that ring true today? Yeah, I and I heard this
metaphor like, and it's kind of a loose metaphor, but you know,
therapy is really for that person who's drowning and
teaching them how to swim. And coaching is kind of like
coming along and helping someoneswim faster.
So that that that visual kind ofhelps me kind of differentiate
(14:07):
the two. Like you're not necessarily
teaching different things. It's both like the form on how
to swim, but it's kind of where that person's AT and how you
show up in that space. If someone's drowning, you have
more life preservers, you have more tools that you're going to
provide for that person. If someone knows how to swim,
it's like we're really refining,like the details of how you can
do it. Better, Right?
(14:29):
So it's really what level of crisis someone might be in.
Yeah. What would you say to a young
man listening to this conversation who feels hopeless
and helpless and that just nobody understands what he's
going through? You know, I really like to give
me his personal advice as I can,but you know, there are there
are themes in general truth thatcan help anyone who's kind of
(14:54):
struggling with depression. And, and one of them is just
like acknowledging that is the voice of depression that wants
you to believe these things. What depression does, what what
shame does is really narrows your view so that you can only
see one thing. And usually it's a negative
thing. So I'm not here to say that that
isn't real, that that's not happening, but just to try to
(15:16):
help you widen, broaden your view so that you can see, you
know, the good things that are in your life, along with the
really real shitty things that are going on.
Can you can you step back to seelike the the other things going
on? Can you hear that this is coming
from shame, from a place of selfcriticism?
And then, you know, what can we do to if we can't turn down that
(15:39):
voice, how can we turn up the sound of the positive things in
your life too? So I was a very depressed and
suicidal kid. I've survived multiple attempts
on my life. And like, I didn't think I had
depression. I thought I was depression and
it it wasn't all the time, but Ithought normal people were like
(15:59):
just happy constantly. Like there was this flat affect
of like, yeah, everything's great like that.
That was normalcy and it's not. But you know, people would offer
me help and and until it took mea long time to be ready to
receive it. So yeah, what how can parents,
friends, communities, how can you help someone that like isn't
(16:23):
really honestly ready to receivehelp yet?
I think you have to not be scared of it and you have to put
away what you want for that person.
I actually just wrote about thisrecently.
Like I, I wrote how to respond to somebody's suicidal ideation.
(16:43):
And I talk about like what not to say it's like, don't go into
fix it mode. OK, here's what you need to do.
You need to get off your phone and you start working out.
Dah dah, dah dah. Don't, don't try to sugarcoat
it. Don't tell them that
everything's going to be OK and don't make it about yourself.
And I think those first two things underneath me are doing
that very thing. You're trying to comfort your
(17:04):
own anxieties and fears and worries about this person.
In trying to cover yourself, you're really just getting in
the way of actually helping thisperson.
So it's really hard. It's really hard to say, hey,
you have to put aside your own thoughts, emotions, upbringings,
belief systems that have worked for you to see this person.
But ultimately, that's what theyneed.
(17:26):
Another great metaphor that I love is this idea of just like
sitting in the mud. Like, can we just be comfortable
with sitting in the mud with this person?
And who knows how long it takes?But if we get comfortable with
sitting in the mud, then it doesn't matter how long it takes
because you know that eventually, when this person's
ready, you'll be there to help help them get out and clean off.
(17:49):
Yeah I totally agree with everything you you just shared.
When I was 16, I thought if if my friends knew how bad I felt,
if they knew how much like darkness and gross shit was in
me, they would leave. They would, they would abandoned
me. So I didn't think I could tell
anyone the truth. And all I So what's proven to
(18:09):
help me the most is what I couldtell someone how bad I felt,
that I was really just thinking about ending my life.
And they just stayed. They they didn't run away.
They didn't shut up. Yeah.
They didn't try to fix it, just like, you know.
OK, I hear you. Now what?
Well, I go so that that we can say suicide and the world
doesn't end. And, you know, that's a myth I
(18:30):
run into often is people afraid to broach it.
Like, like us talking about it is not going to make anybody act
right? It's all that energy.
Those thoughts are already there.
They just haven't been expressed.
You know, like in Winnie the Pooh, Eor is like one of your
representations of like melancholy, depression,
whatever, but he still hangs outwith the gang.
He's still run along like he's still treated as an equal.
(18:53):
And, you know, he still has the this personality the entire
duration of the show, but he he's able to like walk with that
authority or whatever they're they're going through and and be
part of the the group still. So Ethan, if if Austin could see
the work that you're doing, whatdo you think he would say about
it? I think he'd be really proud, I
(19:17):
think he'd be really impressed. It's so conflicting because I
would do anything to Boston backand at the same time my wife
would look very different and I would be happier to have my
(19:38):
brother back. But I was going down a career
path that was not making me happy either.
And so I'm in a much more purpose LED job and I have a lot
of passion towards this and I think he would be really proud
of how I've kind of turn this pain into into purpose.
(20:00):
Yeah, yeah, I agree. You you really seem like a
shining example of, you know, the the story that there's a
gift and in all of our hardest times, there's a gift right
waiting to be and and utilize. So yeah, I really, you know,
commend you in in turning that pain into something positive
and, you know, I dare say makingyour entire family proud of you
(20:24):
and your friend. Everybody tell.
Me A. Little about your book Things in
My Pocket. That was part of my grieving
process too. So part of graduating from
undergrad, we had to write this like life of you paper, part of
the capstone and kind of like what are different life
transitions that you've been through?
And you know, at that time that was prevalent. 1 was the
(20:47):
transition of after losing my brother.
And so I wrote about that, but I'd also previously written
other stories. I am a big fan of writing.
I write a lot on LinkedIn, but prior to that I just had a lot
of journal entries. And so I was kind of reviewing a
lot of different stories that I had written on my computer.
(21:07):
And I was just thinking like, how can I intertwine these?
How can I create this red thread?
And also at the time, my friend came and stayed with me, and
he's a big cyclist. And so he was out riding his
bike one day and I get a call from a sister.
He's from Indiana, and his sister's calling me, you know,
like, confused. I answer.
(21:28):
It's like Drew's in the ER. He, he was in a ditch.
I don't know if he got hit or ifhe passed out or what happened,
but can you go be with him? I was like, yeah, absolutely.
So I go there and he ended up being OK, but while I was just
sitting there kind of waiting for him and he was resting.
And it just got me thinking because they found him
unconscious in a ditch and they pulled out his wallet and they
(21:50):
were able to identify him and then called sister who called
me. And it just got me thinking.
I was like, you know, if I was unconscious in a ditch, what
would people find in my pockets?A So then I just started
thinking about all the things I currently had in my pockets.
But then, you know, things I've had in my pockets prior to.
And then that was kind of just like a light bulb moment for me.
I was like, oh, this could be a cool way to weave all of these
(22:13):
stories through my life into this one book.
And so that's how I came up withthings in my pocket.
Really it's it's a way to practice what I preach.
So I preach vulnerability and sharing our stories.
And so I, I did just that. I really tried to lean into the
uncomfortable stories, the the hard times in my life and it's
(22:35):
more just kind of entertaining base.
But I hope that people read it and it leaves them in kind of a,
a point of reflection on like their own ways that they can be
vulnerable. You don't have to write a book
and share with the whole world, but how can we lean into the
uncomfortable conversations more?
Is there anything that gives youhope about the movement for
(22:57):
men's mental health today? Think the more that I dive into
it on social media and in education, stuff like that, the
more I just learn of these amazing people that are doing
incredible work and the strides that are being made.
Richard Reeves is 1, but Jonathan Haidt is another one.
(23:19):
The anxious generation, I even like people like Scott Galloway
who are a little bit louder and opinionated, which I think is
awesome. And so many incredible
clinicians that I've met at the hospital.
And so, yeah, I, I think and then to also see how they have
their own experiences of grief and pain and loss and how these
(23:41):
people have all done incredible things from places of pain.
And so it encourages me to know like, you know, I'm not alone in
this either. Like as as special and rewarding
and purposeful as it is, it's like I'm not, I'm not trying to
do something. I'm not the first person to do
this. There are many other people who
have done it. And I really looked at them as
role models. Ethan, what's one thing you wish
(24:04):
more men knew? It's a good question, I think.
I wish that they knew. What comes to mind is just like
that. They don't have to have it all
together. They don't have to be Superman.
They don't have to be on 100% ofthe time.
(24:29):
And you know, I don't think thisis a new revelation.
I think people figure this out. I think unfortunately, a lot of
people figure this out the hard way.
And so how can you allow yourself to be human and know
that you don't have to be perfect?
You don't have to have it all figured out.
You don't have to do it alone. Yeah, not even that.
(24:51):
You don't have to. Nobody does.
Like, like, I think that's an entire myth that that hurts men
that you can have it all figuredout.
And, you know, alone especially makes that an impossibility.
But yeah, I, I find, and this iscertainly something I did not
see for quite a while. And, and I was challenged by
(25:13):
this growing up, but the more I'm willing to be wrong about
things, you know, the more I'm willing to see, though there's
more to learn like that, that, that that used to, that used to
feel like life just pummeling me.
Oh, there's more, come on. But now I'm like, oh, good,
there's more, right. So if we can appreciate that
there's more, appreciate our imperfection, appreciate that we
(25:35):
really don't know anything that there's more to to experiment
with, you know, trial and error are all like great things that
that we can use. And I wish if we could find a
way to celebrate that more in the daily experience, especially
of young men, instead of going pick the right major, get the
right job, you know, get it, make sure you're right.
The first thing you try for everything you do that that's
just a horrible standard to try to to reach for anybody.
(25:59):
Yeah, it's this. It's posture of humility and
curiosity, letting the other things kind of fall inside.
So Ethan, what's the best way for people to connect with you?
Linkedin's my main form of social media, so you can find me
on LinkedIn. I think I have other social
media, but I'm not as active on them.
(26:20):
And then I also have a website, sokayman.proorethangetchel.com,
you can find me on there. And I also have a newsletter on
Substack. We'll be sure to have links to
all those resources in the show notes for the episode.
Ethan, I really want to thank you for how you are choosing to
lead your life and in to supportother people in making their
(26:43):
best lives as well. Thank you.
Thanks for creating the space and share some of my story.
I think this podcast in in in spaces like this are amazing.
Big thanks to Ethan Getchel for sharing his heart, his story,
and his mission to make emotional vulnerability a
strength, not a weakness for meneverywhere.
If anything in today's episode resonated with you, don't keep
(27:05):
it to yourself. Share it with a friend, leave a
review, and most importantly, take the next step for yourself.
You don't have to do this alone.Join us in the authentic AF
community for honest conversations, meaningful
support, and brotherhood. Visit realmenfeel.org/group to
learn more. And until next time, be good to
(27:26):
yourself.
If I sum it down to one word, it's vulnerability.
Like if we want to try to tacklethis mantle and these, this idea
of being siloed, being individualized, we have to take
off our armor. Like to be vulnerable means to
be open to being wounded. And we as men really don't like
(00:22):
that idea of letting our guard down, of letting people in.
Welcome to Real Men Feel. I'm your host, Andy Grant.
Today's conversation is a powerful one.
I'm joined by therapist, author,and speaker Ethan Getchel, who
brings a deeply personal lens tomen's mental health.
After losing his younger brotherto suicide, Ethan made a bold
(00:43):
career shift into mental health counseling.
He now focuses on helping young men navigate grief, depression,
and the pressure of being a man today.
If you've ever felt like you hadto act like you've got it all
figured out, this episode is foryou.
And if you're looking for more real talk and connection with
like minded men, check out the authentic AF community at
(01:03):
realmenfield.org/group. It's a space to be seen,
supported, and real. Let's do it now.
Even I know that your career path into therapy was a deeply
personal 1. So can let's start off.
Can you tell me a bit about yourbrother Austin?
Yes, absolutely. My name's Ethan.
(01:24):
I'm in clinical social work. I'm in a depression and suicide
clinic. Before I was doing that, I was
on track to go into commercial real estate.
And prior to that I was going toHope College for business and
communication. And it was in my junior year at
(01:45):
Hope that my youngest brother, Austin died by suicide.
And that was the first time I was really exposed to the silent
suffering that young men go through.
So really since that day, I havekind of grown this passion
(02:06):
through my own grieving journey to my own struggles, and then
also kind of seeing what Austin went through or not seeing what
Austin went through. And that's really driven me to
pursue this career path. And how old was Austin?
He was 16. And had you had any idea that he
was struggling at all? No.
(02:28):
And you know, in hindsight, it'salways 2020.
We try to put the dots together and come up with, like, what
could have been happening there.I have another brother, Hayden,
So there's three of us. I'm the oldest of three
brothers, and Hayden and I are very similar, more extroverted,
(02:49):
spend more time outside. Austin was a redhead, so he was
kind of naturally more introverted, kind of avoided the
sun. He liked video games more.
So there was kind of that dissonance growing up where we'd
be like, hey, let's go outside. Like, no, I want to stay inside.
So kind of just like a little natural disposition that we kind
(03:10):
of just embraced and kind of lethim be.
But again, in hindsight, it's like we just wonder, was that a
factor? Was he spending too much time
alone? Was he spending time online
looking at whatever? Like pretty unfiltered,
uncontrolled. So we speculate things, but
there was no explicit like, hey,I'm feeling this way.
(03:31):
No history of mental health issues really.
Kind of your your cookie cutter kind of normal guy when you kind
of think of one in your head. Was there a specific moment that
you realized you really wanted to be of service and and change
your career? Yeah, it was.
(03:51):
The first thought was like 8-9 months into my own grieving.
So this was my junior year. I finished out the semester.
I contemplated going back senioryear or taking like a gap year
but really wanted to finish my schooling out.
So got started senior year and just like realized how hard it
(04:14):
was to like grieve and grow as this new person.
Like I was very changed after Austin passed.
And so that was the first time that I started going to therapy
and wrestling with these hard questions and really fell in
love with therapy, which is funny because I was someone that
prior to that was like, people don't need therapy.
(04:34):
That's not a thing. Like I have friends, family,
like you shouldn't need therapy.And then to have that really 180
after Austin passed. And so to have a good
experience, to see what Austin was going through and also was
just like a knowledge pursuer, Istarted reading books.
(04:55):
So I read of Boys and Men by Richard Reeves and it really
just like called to attention. Like Austin's not the only one
going through this. This is actually like a really
big issue. So I really felt like I wanted
to use my strengths and gifts and passions and energy to
pursue this head on. The the, the notion that nobody
(05:17):
needs therapy. What was that something that was
just told to you? Or is that just because you
didn't see anybody in your environment going to therapy?
Probably a little bit of both. I didn't really see anybody in
my community go to therapy. I'm from a really small rural
town of like 3000 people. So it was kind of like either
(05:38):
you are OK, you look OK or you or you don't talk about it.
And so growing up, there was an emphasis on like physical
health. And if you were taking care of
yourself physically and you looked good, then you know, that
should be a sign that you feel good.
Your mental health is good. You know, I now know that that's
silly. But so there was an emphasis on
eating healthy and working out, but there was never really
(06:01):
explicit talk around like mentalhealth.
And there's some new challenges today that my parents didn't
face, technology and social communications and things like
that. And so there is a lot of
unknown. One of the things we hold on to
is like, we did the best we could with the information that
we had. And we're kind of at this new
(06:22):
frontier coming out of pandemic AI technology.
Like all these things are impacting young minds so much.
And that's been like a real curiosity, right?
In regards to your own grieving,what was there something that
helped you the most that you would like to share with others?
(06:43):
You know, my life's kind of beena series of like trial and error
and you have to really figure itout.
One of those trial and errors was like trying to grieve on my
own with without help. And that really landed me
feeling weak, really landed me like.
And there is one moment specifically that like my
(07:04):
brother Hayden, who really, we have a good, really good
relationship. He he kind of called me out.
He's like, Ethan, you're, you'renot leaving your room.
Like you're looking a little softer.
You're not working out. So really these mental health
things had transitioned and started affecting my physical
health pieces. And so when I saw that, I looked
in the mirror, I was like, wow, yeah, yeah.
(07:25):
I can't keep just trying to pushthrough this head on stubbornly
and not get help. And so I think that's a piece of
grief where I really learned that it it's communal and it
takes having people around and one of the themes of all of
these things, suicide, grief, success in general, to having
(07:46):
people around you. Yeah, yeah, that's what I find
time and time again, how important community is for the
highs and lows of life. Like we're we're not meant to be
isolated beings. What are some of the biggest
mental health challenges that you see for young men today?
(08:07):
Oh, man, you know, a lot of things aren't changed.
So there's still like financial aspirations, sense of purpose.
Like I think that's one that's kind of transcends time.
It's kind of always been around,but I think these new pieces are
more of emotionally connecting with people.
(08:29):
Relationships. Well, you know, those are still
also older issues, but I think the more recent implications and
struggles are relationships withtechnology and a lot of things
are more digital. And it's complicated because
like with Austin, he had some ofhis deepest friendships, but
they're people that he played video games together with all
(08:50):
day. So it's like you can look at
playing video games all day as anegative thing, but then you see
the relationships he's building,and that's a positive thing.
And so you have this new frontier of relationships in the
digital age, vulnerability, pornography, like exposure to
things, so many things that you know it it, it can be
(09:10):
overwhelming. And what do you think men in
particular struggle to seek helpto open up around depression or
suicidal thoughts? It's uncomfortable, it's second
nature, it's not natural there. There are these big messages out
there to figure it out yourself,to be very individualized, be
(09:35):
siloed, and I think a lot of these really strong messages
that are, that are prevalent historically are really getting
in the way of people connecting with others.
And in your work, what signals or signs that someone needs
support? Do you see that families and
friends are missing? You know, sometimes you get the
(09:59):
overt, very clear signs of depression, anxiety, things like
that. Someone said overwhelming
thoughts. Sometimes you get that cookie
cutter kind of symptom. Other times it's not so clear.
You get young guys who are really deeply obsessed with a
hobby or a job or a singular relationship or gambling or
(10:25):
substance use. And often times it takes more of
a covert form where it may not necessarily seem like a bad
thing that they're spending all day on video games or they're
spending all day working on thisproject.
But it's this idea of like losing balance.
And when that one thing is takenaway, which is kind of their
crutch holding them up from these typical depression
(10:48):
symptoms. The problem is once they lose
that thing, then they don't know.
They don't have anything else torely on.
And that's what they kind of fall into, deeper forms of
depression, suicidality, things like that.
I've seen some of your writings.You you talk about a new vision
for masculinity. What does that look like to you?
I think like if I sum it down toone word, it's vulnerability.
(11:11):
Like if we want to try to tacklethis mantle, these, this idea of
being siloed, being individualized, we have to take
off our armor. Like, to be vulnerable means to
be open to being wounded. And we as men really don't like
that idea of letting our guard down, of letting people in, of
(11:37):
potentially getting hurt by people.
But it's in that pain, in that vulnerability and those moments
where you allow yourself to possibly get wounded, that you
connect with people and you build support and you have
multiple structures so that if you lose 1, it doesn't leave you
falling and crashing and burning.
(11:58):
Now you offer coaching as well as therapy, is that right?
Yeah, a little bit. So I'm primarily at the hospital
and but on the side I'll try help a a guy or two if I can if
it fits in my schedule. And and how are those two
approaches different? They're very similar in that I
try to show up as a human and just really humanize the
(12:20):
experience. Therapy is a little bit
different because it's typicallyhigher acuity, it's more
structured. People are being referred from
their doctors and they had usually it's a paired with
medication management, things like that.
So it's more, at least with the practice that I met, it's more
(12:42):
hospitalized. So you're coming in, you have
this diagnosis, we're going to treat it with this modality and
we're going to try to help you feel better with coaching.
It's usually like you would imagine coaching in other
aspects. So I've, I've been on high
school sports teams, things likethat.
(13:03):
And, and a coach is really someone to say, hey, you're on
this path. You kind of know where you want
to get to you. You have these hiccups, you have
these obstacles, you're looking for a second opinion, you're
looking for maybe some structure, you're looking for
some feedback and I can help walk with you and can offer that
for you. So a little bit of different
(13:24):
spin, but essentially like there's a lot of similarities.
Yeah, in in my experience as as a coach, some of this been
coached. Has some of this been in
therapy? I found that in therapy it was
more listening where where a coach will will can like offer
more will actually like push me to take some actions perhaps.
(13:46):
Does that ring true today? Yeah, I and I heard this
metaphor like, and it's kind of a loose metaphor, but you know,
therapy is really for that person who's drowning and
teaching them how to swim. And coaching is kind of like
coming along and helping someoneswim faster.
So that that that visual kind ofhelps me kind of differentiate
(14:07):
the two. Like you're not necessarily
teaching different things. It's both like the form on how
to swim, but it's kind of where that person's AT and how you
show up in that space. If someone's drowning, you have
more life preservers, you have more tools that you're going to
provide for that person. If someone knows how to swim,
it's like we're really refining,like the details of how you can
do it. Better, Right?
(14:29):
So it's really what level of crisis someone might be in.
Yeah. What would you say to a young
man listening to this conversation who feels hopeless
and helpless and that just nobody understands what he's
going through? You know, I really like to give
me his personal advice as I can,but you know, there are there
are themes in general truth thatcan help anyone who's kind of
(14:54):
struggling with depression. And, and one of them is just
like acknowledging that is the voice of depression that wants
you to believe these things. What depression does, what what
shame does is really narrows your view so that you can only
see one thing. And usually it's a negative
thing. So I'm not here to say that that
isn't real, that that's not happening, but just to try to
(15:16):
help you widen, broaden your view so that you can see, you
know, the good things that are in your life, along with the
really real shitty things that are going on.
Can you can you step back to seelike the the other things going
on? Can you hear that this is coming
from shame, from a place of selfcriticism?
And then, you know, what can we do to if we can't turn down that
(15:39):
voice, how can we turn up the sound of the positive things in
your life too? So I was a very depressed and
suicidal kid. I've survived multiple attempts
on my life. And like, I didn't think I had
depression. I thought I was depression and
it it wasn't all the time, but Ithought normal people were like
(15:59):
just happy constantly. Like there was this flat affect
of like, yeah, everything's great like that.
That was normalcy and it's not. But you know, people would offer
me help and and until it took mea long time to be ready to
receive it. So yeah, what how can parents,
friends, communities, how can you help someone that like isn't
(16:23):
really honestly ready to receivehelp yet?
I think you have to not be scared of it and you have to put
away what you want for that person.
I actually just wrote about thisrecently.
Like I, I wrote how to respond to somebody's suicidal ideation.
(16:43):
And I talk about like what not to say it's like, don't go into
fix it mode. OK, here's what you need to do.
You need to get off your phone and you start working out.
Dah dah, dah dah. Don't, don't try to sugarcoat
it. Don't tell them that
everything's going to be OK and don't make it about yourself.
And I think those first two things underneath me are doing
that very thing. You're trying to comfort your
(17:04):
own anxieties and fears and worries about this person.
In trying to cover yourself, you're really just getting in
the way of actually helping thisperson.
So it's really hard. It's really hard to say, hey,
you have to put aside your own thoughts, emotions, upbringings,
belief systems that have worked for you to see this person.
But ultimately, that's what theyneed.
(17:26):
Another great metaphor that I love is this idea of just like
sitting in the mud. Like, can we just be comfortable
with sitting in the mud with this person?
And who knows how long it takes?But if we get comfortable with
sitting in the mud, then it doesn't matter how long it takes
because you know that eventually, when this person's
ready, you'll be there to help help them get out and clean off.
(17:49):
Yeah I totally agree with everything you you just shared.
When I was 16, I thought if if my friends knew how bad I felt,
if they knew how much like darkness and gross shit was in
me, they would leave. They would, they would abandoned
me. So I didn't think I could tell
anyone the truth. And all I So what's proven to
(18:09):
help me the most is what I couldtell someone how bad I felt,
that I was really just thinking about ending my life.
And they just stayed. They they didn't run away.
They didn't shut up. Yeah.
They didn't try to fix it, just like, you know.
OK, I hear you. Now what?
Well, I go so that that we can say suicide and the world
doesn't end. And, you know, that's a myth I
(18:30):
run into often is people afraid to broach it.
Like, like us talking about it is not going to make anybody act
right? It's all that energy.
Those thoughts are already there.
They just haven't been expressed.
You know, like in Winnie the Pooh, Eor is like one of your
representations of like melancholy, depression,
whatever, but he still hangs outwith the gang.
He's still run along like he's still treated as an equal.
(18:53):
And, you know, he still has the this personality the entire
duration of the show, but he he's able to like walk with that
authority or whatever they're they're going through and and be
part of the the group still. So Ethan, if if Austin could see
the work that you're doing, whatdo you think he would say about
it? I think he'd be really proud, I
(19:17):
think he'd be really impressed. It's so conflicting because I
would do anything to Boston backand at the same time my wife
would look very different and I would be happier to have my
(19:38):
brother back. But I was going down a career
path that was not making me happy either.
And so I'm in a much more purpose LED job and I have a lot
of passion towards this and I think he would be really proud
of how I've kind of turn this pain into into purpose.
(20:00):
Yeah, yeah, I agree. You you really seem like a
shining example of, you know, the the story that there's a
gift and in all of our hardest times, there's a gift right
waiting to be and and utilize. So yeah, I really, you know,
commend you in in turning that pain into something positive
and, you know, I dare say makingyour entire family proud of you
(20:24):
and your friend. Everybody tell.
Me A. Little about your book Things in
My Pocket. That was part of my grieving
process too. So part of graduating from
undergrad, we had to write this like life of you paper, part of
the capstone and kind of like what are different life
transitions that you've been through?
And you know, at that time that was prevalent. 1 was the
(20:47):
transition of after losing my brother.
And so I wrote about that, but I'd also previously written
other stories. I am a big fan of writing.
I write a lot on LinkedIn, but prior to that I just had a lot
of journal entries. And so I was kind of reviewing a
lot of different stories that I had written on my computer.
(21:07):
And I was just thinking like, how can I intertwine these?
How can I create this red thread?
And also at the time, my friend came and stayed with me, and
he's a big cyclist. And so he was out riding his
bike one day and I get a call from a sister.
He's from Indiana, and his sister's calling me, you know,
like, confused. I answer.
(21:28):
It's like Drew's in the ER. He, he was in a ditch.
I don't know if he got hit or ifhe passed out or what happened,
but can you go be with him? I was like, yeah, absolutely.
So I go there and he ended up being OK, but while I was just
sitting there kind of waiting for him and he was resting.
And it just got me thinking because they found him
unconscious in a ditch and they pulled out his wallet and they
(21:50):
were able to identify him and then called sister who called
me. And it just got me thinking.
I was like, you know, if I was unconscious in a ditch, what
would people find in my pockets?A So then I just started
thinking about all the things I currently had in my pockets.
But then, you know, things I've had in my pockets prior to.
And then that was kind of just like a light bulb moment for me.
I was like, oh, this could be a cool way to weave all of these
(22:13):
stories through my life into this one book.
And so that's how I came up withthings in my pocket.
Really it's it's a way to practice what I preach.
So I preach vulnerability and sharing our stories.
And so I, I did just that. I really tried to lean into the
uncomfortable stories, the the hard times in my life and it's
(22:35):
more just kind of entertaining base.
But I hope that people read it and it leaves them in kind of a,
a point of reflection on like their own ways that they can be
vulnerable. You don't have to write a book
and share with the whole world, but how can we lean into the
uncomfortable conversations more?
Is there anything that gives youhope about the movement for
(22:57):
men's mental health today? Think the more that I dive into
it on social media and in education, stuff like that, the
more I just learn of these amazing people that are doing
incredible work and the strides that are being made.
Richard Reeves is 1, but Jonathan Haidt is another one.
(23:19):
The anxious generation, I even like people like Scott Galloway
who are a little bit louder and opinionated, which I think is
awesome. And so many incredible
clinicians that I've met at the hospital.
And so, yeah, I, I think and then to also see how they have
their own experiences of grief and pain and loss and how these
(23:41):
people have all done incredible things from places of pain.
And so it encourages me to know like, you know, I'm not alone in
this either. Like as as special and rewarding
and purposeful as it is, it's like I'm not, I'm not trying to
do something. I'm not the first person to do
this. There are many other people who
have done it. And I really looked at them as
role models. Ethan, what's one thing you wish
(24:04):
more men knew? It's a good question, I think.
I wish that they knew. What comes to mind is just like
that. They don't have to have it all
together. They don't have to be Superman.
They don't have to be on 100% ofthe time.
(24:29):
And you know, I don't think thisis a new revelation.
I think people figure this out. I think unfortunately, a lot of
people figure this out the hard way.
And so how can you allow yourself to be human and know
that you don't have to be perfect?
You don't have to have it all figured out.
You don't have to do it alone. Yeah, not even that.
(24:51):
You don't have to. Nobody does.
Like, like, I think that's an entire myth that that hurts men
that you can have it all figuredout.
And, you know, alone especially makes that an impossibility.
But yeah, I, I find, and this iscertainly something I did not
see for quite a while. And, and I was challenged by
(25:13):
this growing up, but the more I'm willing to be wrong about
things, you know, the more I'm willing to see, though there's
more to learn like that, that, that that used to, that used to
feel like life just pummeling me.
Oh, there's more, come on. But now I'm like, oh, good,
there's more, right. So if we can appreciate that
there's more, appreciate our imperfection, appreciate that we
(25:35):
really don't know anything that there's more to to experiment
with, you know, trial and error are all like great things that
that we can use. And I wish if we could find a
way to celebrate that more in the daily experience, especially
of young men, instead of going pick the right major, get the
right job, you know, get it, make sure you're right.
The first thing you try for everything you do that that's
just a horrible standard to try to to reach for anybody.
(25:59):
Yeah, it's this. It's posture of humility and
curiosity, letting the other things kind of fall inside.
So Ethan, what's the best way for people to connect with you?
Linkedin's my main form of social media, so you can find me
on LinkedIn. I think I have other social
media, but I'm not as active on them.
(26:20):
And then I also have a website, sokayman.proorethangetchel.com,
you can find me on there. And I also have a newsletter on
Substack. We'll be sure to have links to
all those resources in the show notes for the episode.
Ethan, I really want to thank you for how you are choosing to
lead your life and in to supportother people in making their
(26:43):
best lives as well. Thank you.
Thanks for creating the space and share some of my story.
I think this podcast in in in spaces like this are amazing.
Big thanks to Ethan Getchel for sharing his heart, his story,
and his mission to make emotional vulnerability a
strength, not a weakness for meneverywhere.
If anything in today's episode resonated with you, don't keep
(27:05):
it to yourself. Share it with a friend, leave a
review, and most importantly, take the next step for yourself.
You don't have to do this alone.Join us in the authentic AF
community for honest conversations, meaningful
support, and brotherhood. Visit realmenfeel.org/group to
learn more. And until next time, be good to
(27:26):
yourself.
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