June 11, 2025 • 59 mins
What happens when the house suddenly goes quiet? When the roles that defined you for decades shift beneath your feet? In this heartfelt conversation with award-winning journalist and author Rita Lussier, we explore the profound journey of rediscovering yourself after the nest empties.
Rita shares the raw emotional reality of returning home after dropping her youngest at college—that moment when muscle memory expects noise and activity but encounters silence instead. With remarkable honesty, she dismantles the harmful myth that struggling with this transition somehow indicates you've placed too much emphasis on family. Instead, she validates what many experience but few discuss: the disorientation that comes when a 24/7 job that's occupied decades of your life suddenly transforms.
The conversation weaves through multiple life transitions—from redefining partnerships after years of child-focused activity to the complex emotional terrain of caring for aging parents. Rita's poignant description of role reversal with her mother, particularly during her battle with Alzheimer's, captures the bittersweet nature of becoming the caregiver to those who once cared for you.
Most powerfully, Rita offers wisdom for anyone facing uncertainty: "Be patient with yourself. You may not know all the answers right now—in fact, you may not know any answers—but you will. You just have to give yourself some time." Through personal stories, including how writing became both her therapy and eventually her path forward, she illustrates how embracing the unknown can lead to unexpected gifts.
Whether you're approaching an empty nest, in the midst of that transition, or navigating any significant life change, Rita's insights remind us that while beginnings and endings are inevitable, how we move through them shapes who we become. Her book "And Now Back to Me: Stories from an Empty Nest" continues this conversation, meeting readers wherever they are in life's journey.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:08):
Welcome to Real Talk with Tina and Anne.
I am Anne, and today we welcomeRita Lussier to the podcast.
Rita is an award-winningjournalist and storyteller.
Her book, and Now Back to MeStories from an Empty Nest was
recently released, and this bookis relatable to any age as she
(00:29):
discusses childhood, motherhood,midlife, helping our aging
parents and, as your titlestates, what it is like when our
house, with kids and theiractivities, just suddenly goes
silent.
No matter what stage you're in,this book meets you there and
it gently reminds us that in theend, we return to ourselves.
(00:51):
Reading your book felt likewalking through the seasons of
my life, wandering the streetsof childhood, navigating the
joyful chaos of raising kids andeventually sadly, you know
caring for an aging parent.
Today, we're not just talkingabout transitions.
We're talking to someone whocaptures them with remarkable
(01:12):
clarity and heart.
Rita's beloved column For theMoment ran in the Providence
Journal for over 12 years, andher writing has been featured on
NPR, in the Boston Globe, theNew York Daily News and many
more.
She's a three-time Irma BombeckWriting Competition winner, a
(01:33):
writing coach, editor, publicistand a former college professor
at the University of RhodeIsland and Rhode Island College,
and I want to tell you that Iread your 2022 Irma Bombeck
winning essay.
I had to go on.
I was so curious at what it was.
I absolutely loved it.
The way that you write is spoton and it hits us where we live,
(01:56):
so thank you so much for beinghere today.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
Thank you, what an introduction.
I hope I live up to it today,but thank you very much, I
appreciate that our full-timeidentity.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
You know, we pour ourselves into our kids, our
family, and we give and we giveand give and then suddenly, like
(02:29):
you talk about in your book,the house, it gets completely
quiet.
We drop them off at college orthey go off to wherever it is
that they go.
And here we are.
We're left staring at the nextchapter of our lives and our
significant other and wonderingwhat the heck are we going to
talk about or do now?
(02:50):
But mostly we're left withourselves.
And that's such a huge shift.
It's not just about empty rooms.
It's about redefining who weare, without the constant needs
of others directing our everymove.
So can you talk about themoment of transition and what
that was like for you to lookaround and realize?
Okay, now what.
Speaker 2 (03:12):
Well, I definitely remember, after dropping our
youngest daughter at college,that we came back to the house
and I walked in and I wasn'tthinking of anything particular.
But all of a sudden that's whenmy muscle memory kind of took
over, I think and the quiet ofthe house, my daughter's bedroom
(03:33):
looking so neat and tidy, thequilt was all folded up on her
bed and there were books missingfrom her bookshelf, and all of
a sudden, all the absence of theliveliness that we had grown so
accustomed to just seemed tocome up and grab me by the
throat and overwhelm me.
And I liken it to having beenin a car driving at a hundred
(03:59):
miles an hour and you hit bridgeabutment and it takes a while
to get the car started again.
Speaker 1 (04:07):
That's how I feel You're very visual in how you
write and how you speak.
Early in your book you quotedGertrude Stein.
A very important thing is notto make up your mind that you
are any one thing.
This took a couple differentmeanings for me.
First of all, for so much ofour lives, especially as mothers
(04:29):
, caregivers, partners we areeverything to everyone.
And then suddenly the housedoes get quieter.
When you dropped your youngestoff at college and came back to
that new kind of silence, likeyou just talked about, what
surprised you in that moment,about who you were.
Speaker 2 (04:47):
I wasn't sure.
I think that's what reallysurprised me.
A lot of days I felt very lostand confused and then I think
this is where this misperceptionabout the emptiness comes in,
and I will admit I think I hadit.
(05:08):
I did not anticipate that Iwould struggle at all, because I
always had felt and had heardpeople discuss, that if you go
in the emptiness transition andyou have difficulty, that it's
only because you put too muchemphasis on your family, you
focus too much on your kids andyour home and you probably
(05:31):
didn't have a fascinating hobbyor an interesting job or
something like that.
And I'm here to tell you thatthat prevented me from probably
reaching out and trying to talkabout it with my friends.
I felt like I should just keepthis to myself, that I was
(05:53):
having a hard time, that's cutoff, because when you're raising
your children you tend to havethese little groups, like maybe
your son is in baseball, so youhave the baseball families who
convene every springtime, orlike you had the ballet moms
(06:18):
where every year we were puttingon all these productions and
then suddenly your kid is goneand those people exist and you
stay in touch to some degree oranother, but over time the
purpose is gone and you justkind of drift away just when you
need to have a really goodsupport network.
(06:38):
So that's kind of our problem.
Speaker 1 (06:40):
Yeah, I don't know if you're the same way, but when
I'm going through something,I've always been the one that
seems to keep it together withmy friends, and so I didn't and
I haven't shared some thingsthat I've gone through that were
really difficult, because Ialways try to be that one that
appears as if I'm okay even whenI'm not.
So I don't know, it sounds likethat might have been a little
(07:02):
bit of what you went through.
Speaker 2 (07:04):
I think so and I think that this misperception is
really got to be struck down,because, if you think about it
so somebody recently said to meyou know when people retire from
their work, you know they work30 years at the same company or
they were in the same industryfor however long there's always
(07:26):
like some big party, there'ssome big recognition, and then
people are very concerned aboutthe transition.
How are you, now that you'renot working, are you finding
enough to do?
When they're checking in?
And I think, wow, that's agreat point, because being a
parent is much more involvedthan that.
(07:47):
It's, you know, 24 hours a day,seven days a week, and of course
, you're going to feel it.
You're going to feel thatabsence.
And then, to just make it alittle more challenging, I found
your kids come back.
So like, if you're in college,there's fall break, there's
winter vacation, there's summervacation, and what I found was
(08:12):
I'd be making like a little ministep forward in my new identity
.
And then here they come and itjust felt so natural, and you're
just back into your mom roleand they're the kids, and then
they leave, and then you startmoving forward and then they're
back.
So it's really challenging.
Speaker 1 (08:32):
Yeah, it really is.
I have a 29-year-old and youknow, when she comes around, I
mean I just go right back intobeing mom, you know.
But I mean it's that same thingand it's really hard to let go
every time.
It is for me anyway, and I'mglad.
I mean she has a great life andI'm really proud of her.
But at the same time, you know,I still like to keep her close.
Speaker 2 (08:56):
So Well, that's a great point, that this is a
transition unlike some otherones.
That's positive.
I mean, the whole point ofraising your little baby into a
young adult is that we want themto go out and be productive and
have successful, loving lives.
So it's happy, it's a veryhappy it is.
(09:18):
However, even something thatpositive can be extraordinarily
difficult to get used to.
Speaker 1 (09:25):
In your book you do talk about your husband, ernie
and you and how difficult it wasfor you and how you had to
reintroduce yourselves to eachother, basically, and I found it
interesting that you went toyour parents' house and you were
watching them interacting witheach other and you just say with
each other.
And you just say, like, how doyou do this?
What advice did your parentsgive you?
Speaker 2 (09:54):
You know my parents.
I think they gave me a coupledifferent pieces of advice.
One was that they had a verydistinct division of duties.
Like my dad would do errands,my mom would stay in the house
and clean up.
You know, down to my mom saidwhen we paint the house, I do
the trim and he does theshingles, he does the red and
I'm in charge of the white.
(10:15):
So it's like always very clear.
So you know they didn't havethis overlap.
But I think the thing I gleanedfrom them the most was it isn't
really the big things, it's thelittle things.
And my mom told this storyabout how she used to work
during the elections at apolling place and you know, just
(10:38):
be one of the monitors, and itwas a long, long day, from like
eight in the morning till nineat night.
All of a sudden, when I had mylunch break, your father showed
up and wanted to have lunchtogether and I said we don't
need to do that and he said butthen I wouldn't see you all day.
And just the niceness of thatjust made me realize that's what
(11:02):
matters those little things itdoes.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (11:06):
And those are the things that we really remember.
That just made me realizethat's what matters, those
little things it does.
Yeah, and those are the thingsthat we really remember.
Yeah, exactly, you know, Iguess that when a couple is
faced with what you stated inyour book was I'm not sure my
husband knows who I am anymoreand I'm not sure I do either I
would think that this is a makeit or break it time for a lot of
marriages.
Was it a mutual decision?
(11:27):
Did you feel that mutualdecision?
Like, hey, we need to figurethis out.
One meal at a time, oneconversation at a time?
Speaker 2 (11:40):
It felt like a period of movement for the two of you
together.
Yeah, I don't think we everdiscussed it like that, but we
had some really funnyconversations like chapter that
I had in the book our firstweekend alone and Friday evening
after we had dropped ourdaughter off at college earlier
that week, I went to my usualyoga class and my husband Ernie
(12:01):
picked me up and I got in thecar.
And my husband Ernie picked meup and I got in the car and he
says so what do you want to do?
And I'm like I don't know, whatdo you want to do?
And he said well, it seems likewe should do something, don't
you think?
Oh yeah, so we like drovearound in circles trying to have
this circular conversation andwe ended up, we figured
(12:25):
something out.
We went to our neighbor'srestaurant and sat at a bar and
waited for takeout and actuallymade a few friends while we're
sitting there.
But you just got to feel yourway.
At least we did, you know, justkind of acknowledge this is
different and we have all thistime and all this freedom and
(12:47):
we're going to have to find ourway.
So it made for hilariouschapters anyway.
And now back to me, like whenhe went to my yoga class, or
when I tried to understand hiswhole thing about how much he
loves cars.
You know so it was fun.
Speaker 1 (13:05):
Yeah, it kind of is like hi, my name is Rita, Hi, my
name is Ernie.
I remember the date a long timeago.
Yeah well, so many years go bywhen you're so busy and all of a
sudden it's like you come backtogether at the very end when
the kids are gone.
You use the words crossroadsand I use the word mile marker
(13:26):
at times, and they're kind ofvery similar in that there are
times in our lives where we hitthe moment and this moment in
time and we're just not the sameagain and we can only look at
it through the rearview mirror.
Rearview mirror, what do youthink we lose or gain?
Speaker 2 (13:50):
in those transformative moments as we let
go of what was?
That's a great question, let methink I think you do lose some
momentum.
Obviously I think you know youhad so much purpose before as a
mother you know every cause Ishare in the book that I never
intended to get pregnant thefirst time.
But once I had my little son,jeff, I was mother, mother, bear
(14:17):
, mother, whatever you want tocall it.
It just was instinctual to me.
And then I just had my purposefor like a couple decades and
then probably that's juststripped away.
You're like what's my purpose?
On the other hand, what yougain is this opportunity to
(14:37):
reassess, reinvent, reimaginewhat your life will be and
Re-imagine what your life willbe and, you know, kind of go
back to your essence of you asan individual and what you want
and how you want to live.
Speaker 1 (14:58):
And that is a transition that takes time, but
it's very worthwhile that itknocks us off of our feet
without warning.
No instructions tucked insidethe box, no directions to turn
right, then left and arrivesafely at our destination.
You mentioned how you know.
For decades you knew what to do, but what do you recommend to
anyone going through aredefining of self when we're
(15:22):
not sure which direction to gonext and there's just no map?
Speaker 2 (15:25):
Yeah, I would say the most important thing that I
think you can do is to bepatient with yourself.
Okay, and I think we mothersand fathers are patient with our
kids, with everyone else, withour parents, our friends.
We don't tend to be as patientwith ourselves, and this is a
(15:47):
time you turn that back toyourself and spend some time
nurturing yourself, trustingyourself.
You may not know all theanswers In fact, you may not
know any answers right at themoment but you will.
You will you just have to giveyourself some time Again at the
moment, but you will.
You will you just have to giveyourself some time Again once
(16:08):
you acknowledge this is a hugetransition and give yourself
permission to change slowly.
As long as it takes, you'll findyour way.
Speaker 1 (16:18):
Yeah, that's good.
I need to work on patience alittle bit more, I think,
because I want the answers rightnow.
You know purpose is reallyimportant.
We all need purpose.
That's why we're here and it'sa constant redefining of
everything, of who we are, alongthe way in our different
seasons.
You compare this time in ourlives as a puzzle, and when you
(16:41):
take one piece out and tryputting that puzzle back
together, it just doesn't fitthe same.
You describe running pastfamilies and when you take one
piece out and try putting thatpuzzle back together, it just
doesn't fit the same.
You describe running pastfamilies and I really related to
this that they were in stagesof raising young kids at the bus
stop and how hard it was foryou to look.
I felt that because that's hardfor me as well.
You know it's hard to seeothers enjoying the season that
(17:06):
we're no longer in at times.
At times Because I still, yearslater you know I talked about
my 29-year-old daughter I stillhave her Lion King doll up on a
shelf and every now and thenI'll take it down and hold it
and miss that young version ofher.
When is this healthy and whenis it not?
Speaker 2 (17:29):
I think it's okay to be nostalgic and remember
something, but if that is yournew purpose, or if you find
yourself looking back more thanyou're looking for, maybe that,
ooh, that you would want tothink about I love that you
allowed thinking to be your jobfor a little while because we
(17:52):
want to fill that time soquickly with other things.
Speaker 1 (17:56):
You refer to it as the other voice, which I loved
your other voice.
I've never heard that before.
We're quiet with ourselves, butthen this other voice kicks in
and tells us you know, youshould go clean that, or you
need to work on this, or youneed to work on that, like it's
wrong for us to sit and ponderor enjoy some quiet or something
(18:19):
that we really want to do forourselves.
We feel guilty for doingsomething for us.
How do we fix this?
Because I really do do it allthe time.
Speaker 2 (18:29):
You just go and you override it.
This was particularly difficultfor me.
But to do something veryindulgent for yourself when
you're going through a hard time.
For me, I just had this ideapop in my head.
The hair salon I used to go towhen I was working 30 miles away
(18:49):
.
I'm just going to go up thereand see my old friends and get a
blow dry.
And then the other voice spenta lot of time telling me no,
you're not.
I mean you could do laundry,you could be trying to write
something, you could call yourparents and I just had to really
, really fight.
(19:09):
But once I got up to that salonI was so happy that I did that
and I thought we do that all thetime for our families.
We do that for our kids thelittle thing we do for the son
when he had a good tennis game.
Or you know what you do foryour mom you take her out for a
(19:32):
bite to eat.
But for ourselves that's hard.
Just go past that voice.
Speaker 1 (19:38):
Yeah, I'm constantly doing it for my kids and I never
even think about it, but I dohave to give myself permission
to do something for myself.
So you really talk about yourparents and how you looked at
them differently in this newstage of your life, and life was
definitely changing in front ofyou with your parents as well.
(20:00):
So how did that change for you?
Speaker 2 (20:03):
Well, one of the things that happened to me it
was kind of startling was thatmy day-to-day responsibility for
my children was shifted, andabout exactly the same time
actually the same month ofSeptember, I was at a wedding of
my cousin's daughter wasgetting married and my husband
(20:26):
and I had a great time.
We're getting in the car andthere's a knock on the window of
the car and it's my sisterstanding there shivering and we
rolled out the window and shesays we have to talk about you.
Now that Meredith is off atcollege, you could start going
over to mom and dad's maybethree or four times a week and
(20:47):
helping them out.
I was like let me get back toyou.
But it was just thejuxtaposition in terms of time
of the day-to-day responsibilityfor your parents is coming
right now.
Whether you need that.
That's like that whole thing wecall the sandwich generation.
Speaker 1 (21:06):
Oh yeah, I mean, it's interesting how that happens.
It's just a part of life, andyours happened the same month,
but it does happen as soon, andit happens with me so often.
As soon as I have a little bitof free time, something else
needs me.
Speaker 2 (21:23):
It was terrific in that I got to spend a lot of
time with my mom and dad.
But what was hard for me wasjust that reversal, the real
reversal of you.
Know, these are the people thatyou went to for everything and
they took care of you and evenwhen I was older and a parent
(21:44):
and everything, they were therehelping with the kids and
everything.
Then suddenly they're the oneswho need the help and it's just
kind of startling.
Speaker 1 (21:52):
I think yeah, when my mom was in hospice and I knew
that the time was soon, you know, I was feeding her ice cream
like an airplane and I wassitting there saying, yeah, I
mean, the roles have absolutelyreversed and it is probably one
(22:13):
of our hardest transitions.
Speaker 2 (22:15):
I was sitting there saying, yeah, I mean, the roles
have absolutely reversed and itis probably one of our hardest
transitions.
Yeah, I write about that.
And now back to me the chapterabout the pink fairies, which
was a cherry blossom treeoutside my parents' house and
these little pink fluff ballswere coming down.
As my mom and I were sittingthere looking out the window and
(22:36):
I found myself telling her thesame thing I had told my
two-year-old daughter, becausemy mom was like what are those?
What are those?
In her stage of that, and Itold her they were pink fairies,
Went outside and caught one.
We could make a wish, which isexactly what we did.
But just like you're saying,that role reversal really gets
(23:00):
you?
Speaker 1 (23:00):
Yeah, because you see them as the strong one, as the
one you go to, the one that madeit through all of the hard
things in life, and then you'rewatching them not being able to
do that.
One of the things that I lovedabout your book is how it
doesn't just break life intoseasons.
(23:21):
It highlights the power of thetransition, the unexpected
shifts that come with change,the what-ifs and even the small
decisions that end up changingeverything.
You went from working to beingat home, which actually opened
the door to writing, and thatshift led you to your column and
(23:46):
, ultimately, to the work thatyou're doing now.
If you hadn't stayed open towhat life was offering, those
opportunities might have passedyou by.
You know, I had a similarexperience where my own column
just kind of fell in my lap, andit's those times, those
unexpected, unplanned changes,that can shape our paths.
(24:10):
Can you talk more about howlife found you and how being
open allowed you to find yourtrue passions?
Speaker 2 (24:19):
Yeah, well, in terms of what you're talking about, in
terms of writing, I had justfinished my time as a columnist,
at the same time as my daughterleft for college.
However, the good part of thatwas that I had ingrained in me
this need to write, and as mydaughter left and I found myself
(24:42):
in this lost and confused place, I found myself needing to
write and needing to run as well, but that's another story and I
would write a couple hoursevery morning, just get my
thoughts out of me onto paper,and sometimes they made no sense
, and sometimes they started tomake sense, and what ended up
(25:03):
happening over time is that Ieventually I started to realize,
hey, I think I might have abook here, because this writing
was helping me through thistransition.
And then I got the idea in myhead maybe some of the things
that I'm going through and I'mwriting about could help others
(25:23):
go through this transition.
So there's an example of whatyou're saying of having your
mind open.
An example of what you'resaying of having your mind open,
and I wasn't even thinkingabout that, but it just kind of
happened through the way I wasprocessing what was happening to
me.
Speaker 1 (25:42):
Almost all the jobs that I've ever, or even the
directions in my life, have allcome just by being open and not
really realizing where it'sgoing to take me, but being okay
with that.
Speaker 2 (25:49):
Yes, and that's a skill I think that you start to
develop as you grow, to justtrust a little more.
You don't really have control,so just forget about it.
You don't Be in the momentyou're in and let go and just
say you know your mind is goingoh, I gotta figure this out, I
gotta figure no.
No, you don't Just be rightwhere you are and know and trust
(26:13):
.
You've been figuring things outnow for so many years.
You will.
You will figure that out whenyou have to get there, and
that's such a nice way to live.
Speaker 1 (26:25):
Oh yeah, I mean we work so hard at trying to
control everything for such along time and then you are so
right.
I mean we really aren't incontrol of so much and if we
just kind of ride the wave andjust go with it and allow it to
kind of take whatever courseit's going to take, it can be
really quite a ride.
Speaker 2 (26:44):
Yeah, and you find that you have a lot of power
that you don't even realizebecause you're letting go and
you're trusting and believingthat the good things within you
that you unleash will find theirway into the world and they do.
Speaker 1 (27:00):
Yeah, I mean, I never realized that I was going to be
a journalist and a writer andit found me.
And that's what's so awesomeabout it is, if you allow those
things to happen, things canfind you.
Speaker 2 (27:11):
Yeah, and you are a podcaster.
Speaker 1 (27:14):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (27:14):
You're bringing to light many stories that share
with people who relate to it,and then you know that helps a
lot of people in a different waythan your writing did.
Speaker 1 (27:27):
That's what I loved about your writing is that
you're able to help everybody inthe season that they're in, not
just an empty nester.
But for those of us who havelived many of the seasons that
you talked about, there is asaying that I think that we can
all relate to, that the days arelong, but the years are short.
(27:48):
I like that.
Can you reflect on thatstatement?
Speaker 2 (27:51):
Yeah, well, especially when you're
rudderless, when you're lost,when you're confused, when
things aren't making sense, whenthings are difficult and you
have long, long, long days.
But they're going to go by fastbecause you know that person,
you're caring for that childthat's a handful walking out of
(28:13):
the house and you know thatmother of Alzheimer's won't be
there looking at the pinkfairies anymore and you'll miss
that and you'll remember thatand you'll be so glad that you
spent that afternoon there.
So I think that's the sentimentthat you're talking about.
Speaker 1 (28:31):
There were so many parts in your book that I loved,
but one that I really loved waswhen you wanted to freeze time
with your mom.
You were reading with her and,as you said, she had Alzheimer's
and you stopped when you werereading and you wanted to
cherish that moment.
I don't think that we do thatoften enough.
(28:52):
We spend so much of our timelooking at the day's events that
we don't even realize what allhappened when our heads hit the
pillow that night, and we missthe special in it.
All you know your book capturedhow profound each of those
moments really are in our lives.
Can you share how important itis to freeze those moments when
(29:13):
they are actually happening,instead of rushing through them?
Speaker 2 (29:18):
That is something that you know, I think my
parents, my mother's illness inparticular forced me to do
because if I was going to spendtime with her, it was going to
be quiet time, meaningful time.
We baked together, we rodearound.
One day we went to I remember,an apple orchard and she was
(29:41):
just so animated all of a sudden, picking peaches and apples
from a tree.
And it was just in thosemoments and you feel like I have
to hold on to these.
I want to remember and I wouldlike to.
I don't know if I do it, but itwould be great to bring that
type of consciousness into moremoments, even by yourself.
Speaker 1 (30:04):
I have three littles as well, and I have an
eight-year-old.
Oh you do, I do and I'mhomeschooling him and he
absolutely loves to learn.
We were at the zoo yesterday.
I had that feeling.
We were sitting on the benchand we were looking at the lions
(30:24):
and he was eating his Dippin'Dots and I said to myself I want
to just freeze this moment,yeah that's great.
Speaker 2 (30:32):
I love that You're a writer, so write a little
something about that moment andyou'll have it forever.
Because in the writing I knowyou could take a photo, but in
the writing there's all theseother dimensions that don't
appear in the photo.
Speaker 1 (30:46):
When you write from the heart, you can capture so
much more.
One of the things also is thatyou talked about denial.
You talked about our defensesand fear are also topics you
know that are really important,that we live with.
Your mom's diagnosis broughtyou to denial.
If we don't admit it, it's notreal right.
(31:08):
I mean, we've tried that for awhile.
We don't want things to change.
You said denial, not hearing,not seeing, not listening, not
comprehending these are myinadequate defenses.
Then you go into fear and yousay defenses will not work with
(31:29):
fear.
And I say that all the time.
The only way out is throughFace the truth, name it, see it,
feel it, embrace it in all itsmajestic awfulness.
You say that couldn't be atruer statement.
How did you learn to walk withthe hard truths and embrace the
fears?
Speaker 2 (31:49):
It's not easy.
I think you're always learningthat every day I find there'll
be something that pops into myhead and all of a sudden, that's
all I can think of and I'm veryafraid of it.
But you have to defeat itbecause I don't want to live
that way.
I don't want to live where myfear controls me.
You know I had doubt and fearabout publishing a book and you
(32:13):
know, when the day came close tothe launch day, I thought, oh
my goodness, what if it's sopoorly received and I'm just
kidding myself that, you knowthis is going to help anybody.
Or when I had my first event atthe library in our town to
launch the book, I thought whatif people heckle me?
(32:34):
You know, like oh no, yeah, butthat did not happen.
But it could have kept me fromdoing a lot of different things.
But I think that's somethingour other voice wants to conjure
up inside.
Speaker 1 (32:48):
Yeah, I just want to get rid of that other.
It likes to haunt me and Ireally don't know why.
We need to believe in ourselvesmore.
Speaker 2 (32:57):
Yeah that's easier for some people.
Let's just say it.
Men seem to have an easier timewith that.
I think they tend to be muchmore confident.
Speaker 1 (33:07):
Or maybe they just don't care.
Speaker 2 (33:10):
Well, that's a different kind of confidence,
right.
Speaker 1 (33:13):
Right, yeah, I mean, we care so much.
Yeah, something that I'm veryguilty of, that you touch on, is
anticipatory grief.
You said that you have spent alot of time there and you know,
enjoy the now instead of what isto come, and I know that I am
(33:34):
very guilty of that, and why dowe do that?
Speaker 2 (33:38):
That's a good question.
Again, just trying to developthat mindset of trusting
yourself more, as opposed to,you know, fast forwarding.
I'm going to be here, this isgoing to be wrong, I'm going to
have messed up.
Speaker 1 (33:54):
Your book is is so deep and I don't even know what
I loved about it is that it hitsthings that we don't normally
talk about.
You know, they're things thatwe kind of take for granted.
One of the parts of your bookthat does this and this is
something that we do and I don'tthink a lot of us even realize
(34:17):
it is that decades can go by andwe're saying to ourselves, well
, you know, maybe someday.
And then that someday is nowand we're talking, like you know
it could be decades, like yousaid, whether it's deciding to
move or renovate the house, or,you know, maybe it could be
(34:39):
changing career, just anything,and we let life keep us busy or
fearful or distracted so muchuntil one day we realize the
decision still hasn't been made.
Do you think regret might helpus move out of that decisiveness
?
Speaker 2 (34:57):
I know the thing that was in the book about the house
was very emblematic of that.
You know, we were so busy.
A lot of people seem to manageto do things, but we kind of let
our house go.
Instead, we'd always be at likeopen houses and looking at land
and just entertaining all theseschemes, but we never actually
(35:19):
did anything until we finallydid, which was after the kids
left.
We did renovate and I did writeat the end of the book about
the renovation, in particularabout these two great windows we
had put in our bedroom and how.
It just made me realize I don'tknow why we had procrastinated
(35:40):
all that time, because rightthere, right in front of us, was
all the things that we are themost grateful for, and we just
were so busy that we didn't evensee it.
Speaker 1 (35:52):
I also loved your Yellow Kitchen.
Oh, I loved that chapterbecause it made me think of the
song.
Speaker 2 (36:08):
The House that Made Me, it took me through your
journey in a room and that wasso beautifully done and
realizing I was now the one whoknew the recipe and we were
making banana bread and she wasjust stirring the bowl but I had
to tell her what we wereputting in and everything.
(36:30):
But then by the end of the timeI spent with her I realized
maybe, not, maybe she's stillthe one that's got the recipe.
Just the way she was handlingin her kind of augmented state
of being how she was handling itand her loved ones and
everything it was like she stillknew that was pretty amazing.
Speaker 1 (36:52):
You talk about your relationship with your sister
throughout the entire book aswell.
How did your relationship withyour sister change throughout
the seasons?
How do siblings in general doyou think our relationships
change with our siblingsthroughout the seasons?
Speaker 2 (37:10):
My sister and I, I would say the whole season, as
you put it, of our parentsneeding us so much and having so
much responsibility.
We changed from two kind ofcarefree, different individuals
to it was like we became parents.
(37:30):
We joined at the hip because wehad to make decisions about how
to care for our parents andthat, I got to say, was very
stressful and strained at timesbecause we didn't always have
the same ideas, but it also wasa cooperative thing, because
(37:50):
neither of us could have done italone.
Speaker 1 (37:52):
So, and now we're a little more carefree, which I,
like you know, you had a littlebit of a different idea on how
to do it.
You both just wanted the bestfor them.
Speaker 2 (38:02):
Yes, you know that was the change Instead of my
husband being the partner for mein terms of caregiving, my
sister was, and getting used todifferent styles and different
ideas, we did it.
Speaker 1 (38:16):
I want to touch on your weight chapter for a minute
.
First of all, bullies yes, notokay.
Not okay that what the bullieswrote wouldn't come off of your
house for a while there.
I don't know why anyone feelsthat they have the right to put
someone down and make them feelless than I hated that.
(38:37):
They gave you attention whenyou were summer slim, rita, but
when you saw yourself with extrapounds and I liked how you
worded that too, I liked thatyou worded it at what you saw
yourself with extra pounds theydidn't give you the time of day.
Yes, you know you share thestruggles so many people have
(38:57):
with our body and mind, and Ithink we often hold on to the
things that we feel we havecontrol over, like our weight,
when everything feels out ofcontrol around us.
Is that what the digital scaledid for you?
Speaker 2 (39:12):
That was the whole entire book.
I would say that was the mostdifficult chapter not to write
but to decide to put in a bookbecause it still has this shame.
I guess from when I was littleand I was the chubby girl and I
had I mentioned some of thethings in the book that happened
(39:34):
to me and I think it was adifferent time too.
When I was growing up I thinkthere was less attention on
being respectful of others anddifferent people and don't say
this or that.
Like fat Rita could be put onmy house in shaving cream by the
boys in the neighborhood andthat was fine.
(39:57):
And then the next day when theshaving cream had some of the
chemicals had kind of gone intothe paint and that was fine.
And then the next day when theshaving cream had some of the
chemicals had kind of gone intothe paint and that fat Rita was
going to stay there until my dadrepainted the house.
That was a horrible time for meand you just started to learn
all these awful lessons, likewhat I tried to express in about
(40:18):
in the summer you're one thingbecause you're slim, and in the
winter, if you put on a fewpounds, then you're looked at as
a different thing.
I just felt in the end I amsharing that because I'm not the
only one, and writing in and ofitself is vulnerable, but a
memoir is even more so, and Ijust decided if I want readers
(40:41):
to relate to what I'm saying andI do then I have to be totally
honest, and that was the choiceI made with that chapter and
actually the whole book.
But that, I think, is reallyimportant and that's the control
aspect and you actually referto that.
Speaker 1 (41:06):
You said when you were talking about the scale
that the scale is cold, hardevidence that I'm in control and
I see them the numbers on thescale for what they really are
an illusion.
So can you touch on that?
Speaker 2 (41:20):
Yeah.
So in emptiness, especially theearly year or so, I just kind
of got a little too obsessedwith my weight, as my son said
to me.
He said, mom, it's becauseeverything else in your life is
out of control, so you thinkthis will give you control.
And he was right.
(41:40):
Fortunately, I worked throughthat.
But in that moment, you know, Iwas like I got to weigh in, I
got to weigh less.
That's not good.
Speaker 1 (41:50):
Well, control is a big deal in our lives.
Letting go, when to let go, howto let go it's something that
weaves in and out of our life,through our entire life.
Speaker 2 (42:01):
Yeah, that's true, but I'm in this spot now where I
trust, so I have let go of that.
Speaker 1 (42:08):
I'd love that you use the word trust to be the
opposite of control.
Speaker 2 (42:13):
It seems like it to me because, instead of trying to
orchestrate everything down tomicro things like don't even
worry about what's for dinner,because when we get to dinner
we'll say what's for dinner.
Speaker 1 (42:25):
Again a letting go.
Here's another hard truth thatI want to talk about.
From your book I saw that yousaid how do we explore who we
really are when we are clingingto the familiar?
How can we get in touch withthat no-transcript children that
(43:13):
go down there don't come backup?
Oh my God.
And so my friend and I.
Oh my God, and so my friend andI.
We would go down one step andthen run back up, and then down
two and then run back up andthen three.
We did, friend, like I made it,and it was like it's that same
feeling you know of when you'regoing into the unknown, into
(43:34):
that uncertain, and it's kind offunny because nothing happened,
(43:58):
you know, I was fine, andthat's what happens a lot of
times when we go into thoseunknown areas and allow ourself
to be there.
Can you share a moment when youtook a leap into the unfamiliar
territory and it ended upshaping your life in a beautiful
or unexpected way?
Speaker 2 (44:12):
Well, I'll go back to publishing this book, because I
wanted to publish a book for along time.
I had no idea what to expect,and every moment since that and
it's been about two months thatthe book has been out I find
myself feeling uncomfortable.
And then I tell myself that'sokay, if you're going to grow,
(44:33):
you're going to be uncomfortable.
But, like my very first podcast, I was like what am I going to
do?
What am I going to do?
What am I going to say?
Or every event that I've hadand I've had quite a few of them
now is different, and so I havenow come to the conclusion that
I'm going to walk into I haveone Saturday expecting anything,
(44:55):
because they've all beendifferent.
So I am letting go and justsaying, yes, this might be very
uncomfortable or it might beterrific.
And actually every single one,even though they started out as
uncomfortable because I didn'tknow what I was getting into,
there were great things thathappened in them.
Speaker 1 (45:16):
Yeah, every single time that happens with me and
I'm autistic, so sometimes it'svery difficult for me to meet
new people and things like that.
But this has been great for meto do a podcast and do the
unknown, and when I startedjournalism, that's what got me
to the point where I wascomfortable with having
conversations with people andlearning interviewing skills.
(45:38):
So I mean, you just never knowhow those things are going to
help you later.
Speaker 2 (45:44):
A perfect example.
Every time you invite somebodyonto your podcast, you have no
idea what you're getting.
You've never spoken with mebefore and you don't know what
the conversation will be like,but yet you're open to it.
It might be a littleuncomfortable to if you've
thought about that, if youdwelled upon that thought, but
you just come in open heartedand have a discussion.
Speaker 1 (46:08):
Right, it comes down to wanting to be different and
wanting more and not, you know,staying stuck.
Yes, one of the things that youtalked about and this is this
was interesting you paintedadulting as kind of mundane.
You know, we get sick, we get ajob, we lose our job, we lose
our way, we need money, we paythe bills, we make mistakes, we
(46:30):
fix the mistakes, but then youshare how something was missing
in your life and it became a NewYear's resolution.
What was that?
Speaker 2 (46:40):
That's always like one of my favorite chapters,
whenever anybody asks me that,because it is the way to live.
It's like find your bliss, it'sthere, you just have to choose
to find it.
And that particular morning wasa January morning when that
revelation came to me.
Our daughter had just come homefor her first winter break and
(47:03):
she was having second thoughtsabout college.
And I had gone for a run and itwas freezing, freezing,
freezing, cold out.
And January was January in NewEngland and the wind was
whipping and I had just finishedmy run run and I was just
coming up to our driveway andthere I saw my neighbor, jackie,
and she had this bright pinkparka and she was walking her
(47:26):
two yellow labs and she said itmust be so fun having your
daughter home, and isn't it nice.
The wind is so crisp and clearand the sky is blue.
And she was just in such agreat mood out there walking her
dogs and I just had that visualstuck in my head for the rest
of the day and I just thoughtthat's it, it's freezing, so
(47:49):
what?
I have a pink parka and I'mjust going to enjoy my dogs.
Then, when you start lookingthrough that lens, you start to
see lots of other things thatcan make you smile.
That is a great way to live.
Just look for the optimistic,happy thing around you and all
the rest you'll get through, butthere's something that's going
(48:10):
to make your day.
Speaker 1 (48:11):
Maybe you got that from your dad, because you do
touch on how he is.
How he was with.
That is how he was with that.
How did your friend's advicechange you when you said try to
take the time to do the thingsthat will make you happy?
In spite of it all, this isyour life, your one and only one
.
Speaker 2 (48:31):
And that's my friend Kathy, who we went out on
another cold night to celebrateher birthday.
That's what she said at ourlittle gathering and I thought,
wow, what a gift.
She's right.
She's at the point of she's alittle further along in her
empty nest of reallyreevaluating things and saying
(48:52):
it out loud that choose, choosehow you want to live.
If you don't like something,change it, make this your time,
and that had big impact on theway I was thinking.
Speaker 1 (49:05):
I also liked how your aunt pretty much gave you
permission to just do yourpassion.
You know she was like well, ifyou want to write, write, yeah,
it seems so simple, but not atthe same time.
Speaker 2 (49:18):
Yeah that was my Auntie Gert, and she came to me
in a dream and I had beenwrestling with what to do with
my career, what should I bedoing?
And she was always like.
She was very short and she hadthese very piercing blue eyes.
She always said exactly whatwas on her mind.
And in that dream she came tome and she said if you want to
(49:41):
be a writer, write.
If you want to write, justwrite.
And I just like resonated.
I was like that's it, what am Italking about?
I just got to get at it.
It sounds so simple.
Yes, it's not, but it is Justkeep doing it.
Speaker 1 (49:58):
One of my other favorite parts this was actually
very beautiful.
It was not, but it is if youjust keep doing it.
One of my other favorite partsthis was actually very beautiful
.
It was hard, but it wasbeautiful at the same time was
your parents' relationship, andI loved how, when your dad
realized it was getting towardsthe end there, she needed to go
to the hospital, and I justpictured that chapter went into
slow motion for me as you talkedabout how he combed her hair
(50:21):
and he helped get her ready andhe was walking her out.
How did your parents'relationship shape you?
Speaker 2 (50:30):
Oh, absolutely shaped me.
They were always very lovingtoward each other and towards
both my sister and I, and it wasand extended on to our kids and
everything.
And they just taught me andthat's why the dedication in the
book is to Elaine and Andre foralways believing in God, in
(50:56):
love and in me, and that kind oftells you where they come from,
the type of people they were.
I was so blessed with them.
Speaker 1 (51:05):
Yeah, you do touch about how where you come from is
where you were heading.
What did you mean by that?
Is that what you meant, I?
Speaker 2 (51:15):
said that a lot of where you are has to do with
where you come from, right, andI think my sister and I I think
it was in the chapter about usand that we both had that
background.
So I think that shaped how wewould move forward.
And I had, at one of my events,somebody asked me an impossible
(51:39):
question which was so you werefortunate enough to have this
family, so I did not.
How do you think you would havewritten this book if you had a
different family?
Because I said I am so blessedand that's the whole context of
(52:00):
my life that I approach thingswith is what I was given through
my loving parents.
So I just cannot imagine theperson I would be, the choices I
would have made if I had hadanother upbringing.
You wrote from your perspective.
You wrote what you knew Exactly, so I could not even begin to
imagine.
(52:21):
I felt for that person askingthat question.
Speaker 1 (52:24):
And you talked a little bit about your dad's
perspective earlier.
He seemed like quite the man,you say.
His inspiration reminds me thatour attitude means more than
any of our circumstances, and Ithink that that's so important.
That perspective really carriesme through life.
Our mindset possesses theawesome power to change the
(52:46):
course of our moments, our daysand, yes, our lives.
Your dad embraced every moment.
What an example he must havebeen for you.
Speaker 2 (52:57):
He was amazing.
He was just such a gregariousguy, such a people person.
He loved people, he just lovedfamily and he, you know he went
through a lot of health issuesin his living.
But he would be the first to betelling this nurse or you know
that doctor, wow, you are like amiracle worker, You're
(53:20):
wonderful, Thank you so much forcoming into my room and helping
me.
And they would just be stunnedbecause it was so unusual.
And then when he got better,he'd always follow up with
little gifts that he'd bringover to the hospital or to the
doctor's office and thankingnotes and he was just
(53:40):
appreciative and grateful foreverything he had.
Speaker 1 (53:43):
You're really touching on something there.
We can find gratitude ineverything, no matter how
difficult it is.
I think it's really importantbecause lots of times we find
the gratitude in the hindsight,you know, and looking back
instead of in the moment, and Ithink your book really captures
that.
Speaker 2 (54:00):
Yeah, I hope it does, because I'm feeling that.
I'm feeling that now talkingwith you, so I'm so grateful for
this.
Speaker 1 (54:09):
Yeah, I'm so grateful that you're on.
You know, the end of your bookwas really interesting to me.
Going on this run through yourmemories and I've gone back to
where I grew up, which is notfar from where I live, but I
don't go there very often.
But in all the stages of mylife, you know, I go back to
(54:31):
those places and I see a memoryon every corner, the bittersweet
, you know, the good, the badand the ugly, and I try to
embrace them all.
But you say you've come totruly appreciate that your
marriage, your children, yourfamily, friends and community
are the real gifts in life.
So many times when we areyounger we are looking
(54:51):
everywhere for fulfillment, whenit's right in front of us, and
it takes a lifetime of lookingin the rearview mirror to see
that.
As your book points out, weneed to slow down to see it and
realize that what we are seekingfor is often right in front of
(55:12):
us.
And I love the question thiswas one of my favorite After
your youngest did move out howdid I get here so quickly?
How is it possible that I'm onthe same road, passing the same
trees, the same houses, the samefaces, and yet, as I turn into
my driveway, nothing feels thesame, nothing seems to fit
(55:35):
anymore.
I've gone back to places I oncewalked as a kid, as I raised my
older two kids, and nothingfelt the same, but yet nothing
changed.
You know, it's such a surrealfeeling.
Speaker 2 (55:49):
It is.
I can even remember that momentwhen you just start to realize,
boy, look at these peoplewaiting at the bus, stop.
I'm not there and everythingjust felt like you were floating
in some other world and I was.
Speaker 1 (56:04):
Yeah, I know what it's like to drive down a road,
like after my dad passed away orwhatever.
I mean, it's like you're goingdown the same road that you've
always gone to.
You're going past everythingand everything is exactly the
same.
Going past everything andeverything is exactly the same.
Speaker 2 (56:22):
Nothing's changed, but you are, so nothing looks
the same.
Yes, that's exactly right.
So many times in this emptynest transition that happened to
me, I would be in a familiarplace and expect something to
happen, like the ballet kidswould come out of the studio
where I took yoga and mydaughter's there, right?
(56:44):
No, no, she's not, and it wouldjust be startling.
Speaker 1 (56:49):
Yeah, because everything's changed.
Those places that we went tolike when my kids swam, they're
not in the pool anymore.
Speaker 2 (56:57):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (56:58):
I know it's very difficult, but I wanted to thank
you for this book about life,because that's what it's about
talking about the things that wedon't normally talk about.
Thank you for walking throughlife's
not-so-obvious-in-the-momentlessons that only make sense in
(57:20):
the rearview mirror.
I encourage everyone to pick upRita's book.
And Now Back to Me Stories froman Empty Nest.
I wanted to end with one morequick question, because I
thought about this.
And if I had a signpost at acrossroad or someone coming up
(57:41):
behind me on a similar path,what would my sign say?
You know, it made me reallywant to think about that and I
started jotting down trust thejourney.
You may not see what is ahead,but every step forward will
reveal what you're ready to see.
That's so terrific.
(58:03):
What would yours be, I waswondering.
I think it would use that wordtrust.
Speaker 2 (58:10):
You've come this far, you've accomplished this much.
Trust yourself, Just trustyourself.
Trust the moment, and this iswhere you're supposed to be.
Enjoy it, yeah.
Speaker 1 (58:22):
I mean, we're not meant to have the whole map in
front of us, right?
Just have to have the courageto take the next step.
Yes, appreciate you being heretoday.
It really meant a lot to me.
This was great.
Speaker 2 (58:36):
Well, thank you.
It meant a lot to me to havethis opportunity and to talk
with you.
Speaker 1 (58:42):
How can people reach you?
Do you have a website?
Speaker 2 (58:46):
The book is available on Amazon and Bookshop and
pretty much in bookstores, butthe go-to site is my website.
It's RitaLucerecom and it hasthe book, information and more
information about me.
And you can message me throughthere too, and to our listeners.
Speaker 1 (59:08):
I just want to tell everybody thank you so much for
being here today and, as wealways say, remember there is
purpose in the pain and there ishope in the journey.
And pick up Rita's book.
Read it, because, trust me, youwill get so much out of it I
know I did and I probably willread it again.
So, again, thank you so muchfor being here today and we will
(59:33):
see you next time.
Welcome to Real Talk with Tina and Anne.
I am Anne, and today we welcomeRita Lussier to the podcast.
Rita is an award-winningjournalist and storyteller.
Her book, and Now Back to MeStories from an Empty Nest was
recently released, and this bookis relatable to any age as she
(00:29):
discusses childhood, motherhood,midlife, helping our aging
parents and, as your titlestates, what it is like when our
house, with kids and theiractivities, just suddenly goes
silent.
No matter what stage you're in,this book meets you there and
it gently reminds us that in theend, we return to ourselves.
(00:51):
Reading your book felt likewalking through the seasons of
my life, wandering the streetsof childhood, navigating the
joyful chaos of raising kids andeventually sadly, you know
caring for an aging parent.
Today, we're not just talkingabout transitions.
We're talking to someone whocaptures them with remarkable
(01:12):
clarity and heart.
Rita's beloved column For theMoment ran in the Providence
Journal for over 12 years, andher writing has been featured on
NPR, in the Boston Globe, theNew York Daily News and many
more.
She's a three-time Irma BombeckWriting Competition winner, a
(01:33):
writing coach, editor, publicistand a former college professor
at the University of RhodeIsland and Rhode Island College,
and I want to tell you that Iread your 2022 Irma Bombeck
winning essay.
I had to go on.
I was so curious at what it was.
I absolutely loved it.
The way that you write is spoton and it hits us where we live,
(01:56):
so thank you so much for beinghere today.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
Thank you, what an introduction.
I hope I live up to it today,but thank you very much, I
appreciate that our full-timeidentity.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
You know, we pour ourselves into our kids, our
family, and we give and we giveand give and then suddenly, like
(02:29):
you talk about in your book,the house, it gets completely
quiet.
We drop them off at college orthey go off to wherever it is
that they go.
And here we are.
We're left staring at the nextchapter of our lives and our
significant other and wonderingwhat the heck are we going to
talk about or do now?
(02:50):
But mostly we're left withourselves.
And that's such a huge shift.
It's not just about empty rooms.
It's about redefining who weare, without the constant needs
of others directing our everymove.
So can you talk about themoment of transition and what
that was like for you to lookaround and realize?
Okay, now what.
Speaker 2 (03:12):
Well, I definitely remember, after dropping our
youngest daughter at college,that we came back to the house
and I walked in and I wasn'tthinking of anything particular.
But all of a sudden that's whenmy muscle memory kind of took
over, I think and the quiet ofthe house, my daughter's bedroom
(03:33):
looking so neat and tidy, thequilt was all folded up on her
bed and there were books missingfrom her bookshelf, and all of
a sudden, all the absence of theliveliness that we had grown so
accustomed to just seemed tocome up and grab me by the
throat and overwhelm me.
And I liken it to having beenin a car driving at a hundred
(03:59):
miles an hour and you hit bridgeabutment and it takes a while
to get the car started again.
Speaker 1 (04:07):
That's how I feel You're very visual in how you
write and how you speak.
Early in your book you quotedGertrude Stein.
A very important thing is notto make up your mind that you
are any one thing.
This took a couple differentmeanings for me.
First of all, for so much ofour lives, especially as mothers
(04:29):
, caregivers, partners we areeverything to everyone.
And then suddenly the housedoes get quieter.
When you dropped your youngestoff at college and came back to
that new kind of silence, likeyou just talked about, what
surprised you in that moment,about who you were.
Speaker 2 (04:47):
I wasn't sure.
I think that's what reallysurprised me.
A lot of days I felt very lostand confused and then I think
this is where this misperceptionabout the emptiness comes in,
and I will admit I think I hadit.
(05:08):
I did not anticipate that Iwould struggle at all, because I
always had felt and had heardpeople discuss, that if you go
in the emptiness transition andyou have difficulty, that it's
only because you put too muchemphasis on your family, you
focus too much on your kids andyour home and you probably
(05:31):
didn't have a fascinating hobbyor an interesting job or
something like that.
And I'm here to tell you thatthat prevented me from probably
reaching out and trying to talkabout it with my friends.
I felt like I should just keepthis to myself, that I was
(05:53):
having a hard time, that's cutoff, because when you're raising
your children you tend to havethese little groups, like maybe
your son is in baseball, so youhave the baseball families who
convene every springtime, orlike you had the ballet moms
(06:18):
where every year we were puttingon all these productions and
then suddenly your kid is goneand those people exist and you
stay in touch to some degree oranother, but over time the
purpose is gone and you justkind of drift away just when you
need to have a really goodsupport network.
(06:38):
So that's kind of our problem.
Speaker 1 (06:40):
Yeah, I don't know if you're the same way, but when
I'm going through something,I've always been the one that
seems to keep it together withmy friends, and so I didn't and
I haven't shared some thingsthat I've gone through that were
really difficult, because Ialways try to be that one that
appears as if I'm okay even whenI'm not.
So I don't know, it sounds likethat might have been a little
(07:02):
bit of what you went through.
Speaker 2 (07:04):
I think so and I think that this misperception is
really got to be struck down,because, if you think about it
so somebody recently said to meyou know when people retire from
their work, you know they work30 years at the same company or
they were in the same industryfor however long there's always
(07:26):
like some big party, there'ssome big recognition, and then
people are very concerned aboutthe transition.
How are you, now that you'renot working, are you finding
enough to do?
When they're checking in?
And I think, wow, that's agreat point, because being a
parent is much more involvedthan that.
(07:47):
It's, you know, 24 hours a day,seven days a week, and of course
, you're going to feel it.
You're going to feel thatabsence.
And then, to just make it alittle more challenging, I found
your kids come back.
So like, if you're in college,there's fall break, there's
winter vacation, there's summervacation, and what I found was
(08:12):
I'd be making like a little ministep forward in my new identity
.
And then here they come and itjust felt so natural, and you're
just back into your mom roleand they're the kids, and then
they leave, and then you startmoving forward and then they're
back.
So it's really challenging.
Speaker 1 (08:32):
Yeah, it really is.
I have a 29-year-old and youknow, when she comes around, I
mean I just go right back intobeing mom, you know.
But I mean it's that same thingand it's really hard to let go
every time.
It is for me anyway, and I'mglad.
I mean she has a great life andI'm really proud of her.
But at the same time, you know,I still like to keep her close.
Speaker 2 (08:56):
So Well, that's a great point, that this is a
transition unlike some otherones.
That's positive.
I mean, the whole point ofraising your little baby into a
young adult is that we want themto go out and be productive and
have successful, loving lives.
So it's happy, it's a veryhappy it is.
(09:18):
However, even something thatpositive can be extraordinarily
difficult to get used to.
Speaker 1 (09:25):
In your book you do talk about your husband, ernie
and you and how difficult it wasfor you and how you had to
reintroduce yourselves to eachother, basically, and I found it
interesting that you went toyour parents' house and you were
watching them interacting witheach other and you just say with
each other.
And you just say, like, how doyou do this?
What advice did your parentsgive you?
Speaker 2 (09:54):
You know my parents.
I think they gave me a coupledifferent pieces of advice.
One was that they had a verydistinct division of duties.
Like my dad would do errands,my mom would stay in the house
and clean up.
You know, down to my mom saidwhen we paint the house, I do
the trim and he does theshingles, he does the red and
I'm in charge of the white.
(10:15):
So it's like always very clear.
So you know they didn't havethis overlap.
But I think the thing I gleanedfrom them the most was it isn't
really the big things, it's thelittle things.
And my mom told this storyabout how she used to work
during the elections at apolling place and you know, just
(10:38):
be one of the monitors, and itwas a long, long day, from like
eight in the morning till nineat night.
All of a sudden, when I had mylunch break, your father showed
up and wanted to have lunchtogether and I said we don't
need to do that and he said butthen I wouldn't see you all day.
And just the niceness of thatjust made me realize that's what
(11:02):
matters those little things itdoes.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (11:06):
And those are the things that we really remember.
That just made me realizethat's what matters, those
little things it does.
Yeah, and those are the thingsthat we really remember.
Yeah, exactly, you know, Iguess that when a couple is
faced with what you stated inyour book was I'm not sure my
husband knows who I am anymoreand I'm not sure I do either I
would think that this is a makeit or break it time for a lot of
marriages.
Was it a mutual decision?
(11:27):
Did you feel that mutualdecision?
Like, hey, we need to figurethis out.
One meal at a time, oneconversation at a time?
Speaker 2 (11:40):
It felt like a period of movement for the two of you
together.
Yeah, I don't think we everdiscussed it like that, but we
had some really funnyconversations like chapter that
I had in the book our firstweekend alone and Friday evening
after we had dropped ourdaughter off at college earlier
that week, I went to my usualyoga class and my husband Ernie
(12:01):
picked me up and I got in thecar.
And my husband Ernie picked meup and I got in the car and he
says so what do you want to do?
And I'm like I don't know, whatdo you want to do?
And he said well, it seems likewe should do something, don't
you think?
Oh yeah, so we like drovearound in circles trying to have
this circular conversation andwe ended up, we figured
(12:25):
something out.
We went to our neighbor'srestaurant and sat at a bar and
waited for takeout and actuallymade a few friends while we're
sitting there.
But you just got to feel yourway.
At least we did, you know, justkind of acknowledge this is
different and we have all thistime and all this freedom and
(12:47):
we're going to have to find ourway.
So it made for hilariouschapters anyway.
And now back to me, like whenhe went to my yoga class, or
when I tried to understand hiswhole thing about how much he
loves cars.
You know so it was fun.
Speaker 1 (13:05):
Yeah, it kind of is like hi, my name is Rita, Hi, my
name is Ernie.
I remember the date a long timeago.
Yeah well, so many years go bywhen you're so busy and all of a
sudden it's like you come backtogether at the very end when
the kids are gone.
You use the words crossroadsand I use the word mile marker
(13:26):
at times, and they're kind ofvery similar in that there are
times in our lives where we hitthe moment and this moment in
time and we're just not the sameagain and we can only look at
it through the rearview mirror.
Rearview mirror, what do youthink we lose or gain?
Speaker 2 (13:50):
in those transformative moments as we let
go of what was?
That's a great question, let methink I think you do lose some
momentum.
Obviously I think you know youhad so much purpose before as a
mother you know every cause Ishare in the book that I never
intended to get pregnant thefirst time.
But once I had my little son,jeff, I was mother, mother, bear
(14:17):
, mother, whatever you want tocall it.
It just was instinctual to me.
And then I just had my purposefor like a couple decades and
then probably that's juststripped away.
You're like what's my purpose?
On the other hand, what yougain is this opportunity to
(14:37):
reassess, reinvent, reimaginewhat your life will be and
Re-imagine what your life willbe and, you know, kind of go
back to your essence of you asan individual and what you want
and how you want to live.
Speaker 1 (14:58):
And that is a transition that takes time, but
it's very worthwhile that itknocks us off of our feet
without warning.
No instructions tucked insidethe box, no directions to turn
right, then left and arrivesafely at our destination.
You mentioned how you know.
For decades you knew what to do, but what do you recommend to
anyone going through aredefining of self when we're
(15:22):
not sure which direction to gonext and there's just no map?
Speaker 2 (15:25):
Yeah, I would say the most important thing that I
think you can do is to bepatient with yourself.
Okay, and I think we mothersand fathers are patient with our
kids, with everyone else, withour parents, our friends.
We don't tend to be as patientwith ourselves, and this is a
(15:47):
time you turn that back toyourself and spend some time
nurturing yourself, trustingyourself.
You may not know all theanswers In fact, you may not
know any answers right at themoment but you will.
You will you just have to giveyourself some time Again at the
moment, but you will.
You will you just have to giveyourself some time Again once
(16:08):
you acknowledge this is a hugetransition and give yourself
permission to change slowly.
As long as it takes, you'll findyour way.
Speaker 1 (16:18):
Yeah, that's good.
I need to work on patience alittle bit more, I think,
because I want the answers rightnow.
You know purpose is reallyimportant.
We all need purpose.
That's why we're here and it'sa constant redefining of
everything, of who we are, alongthe way in our different
seasons.
You compare this time in ourlives as a puzzle, and when you
(16:41):
take one piece out and tryputting that puzzle back
together, it just doesn't fitthe same.
You describe running pastfamilies and when you take one
piece out and try putting thatpuzzle back together, it just
doesn't fit the same.
You describe running pastfamilies and I really related to
this that they were in stagesof raising young kids at the bus
stop and how hard it was foryou to look.
I felt that because that's hardfor me as well.
You know it's hard to seeothers enjoying the season that
(17:06):
we're no longer in at times.
At times Because I still, yearslater you know I talked about
my 29-year-old daughter I stillhave her Lion King doll up on a
shelf and every now and thenI'll take it down and hold it
and miss that young version ofher.
When is this healthy and whenis it not?
Speaker 2 (17:29):
I think it's okay to be nostalgic and remember
something, but if that is yournew purpose, or if you find
yourself looking back more thanyou're looking for, maybe that,
ooh, that you would want tothink about I love that you
allowed thinking to be your jobfor a little while because we
(17:52):
want to fill that time soquickly with other things.
Speaker 1 (17:56):
You refer to it as the other voice, which I loved
your other voice.
I've never heard that before.
We're quiet with ourselves, butthen this other voice kicks in
and tells us you know, youshould go clean that, or you
need to work on this, or youneed to work on that, like it's
wrong for us to sit and ponderor enjoy some quiet or something
(18:19):
that we really want to do forourselves.
We feel guilty for doingsomething for us.
How do we fix this?
Because I really do do it allthe time.
Speaker 2 (18:29):
You just go and you override it.
This was particularly difficultfor me.
But to do something veryindulgent for yourself when
you're going through a hard time.
For me, I just had this ideapop in my head.
The hair salon I used to go towhen I was working 30 miles away
(18:49):
.
I'm just going to go up thereand see my old friends and get a
blow dry.
And then the other voice spenta lot of time telling me no,
you're not.
I mean you could do laundry,you could be trying to write
something, you could call yourparents and I just had to really
, really fight.
(19:09):
But once I got up to that salonI was so happy that I did that
and I thought we do that all thetime for our families.
We do that for our kids thelittle thing we do for the son
when he had a good tennis game.
Or you know what you do foryour mom you take her out for a
(19:32):
bite to eat.
But for ourselves that's hard.
Just go past that voice.
Speaker 1 (19:38):
Yeah, I'm constantly doing it for my kids and I never
even think about it, but I dohave to give myself permission
to do something for myself.
So you really talk about yourparents and how you looked at
them differently in this newstage of your life, and life was
definitely changing in front ofyou with your parents as well.
(20:00):
So how did that change for you?
Speaker 2 (20:03):
Well, one of the things that happened to me it
was kind of startling was thatmy day-to-day responsibility for
my children was shifted, andabout exactly the same time
actually the same month ofSeptember, I was at a wedding of
my cousin's daughter wasgetting married and my husband
(20:26):
and I had a great time.
We're getting in the car andthere's a knock on the window of
the car and it's my sisterstanding there shivering and we
rolled out the window and shesays we have to talk about you.
Now that Meredith is off atcollege, you could start going
over to mom and dad's maybethree or four times a week and
(20:47):
helping them out.
I was like let me get back toyou.
But it was just thejuxtaposition in terms of time
of the day-to-day responsibilityfor your parents is coming
right now.
Whether you need that.
That's like that whole thing wecall the sandwich generation.
Speaker 1 (21:06):
Oh yeah, I mean, it's interesting how that happens.
It's just a part of life, andyours happened the same month,
but it does happen as soon, andit happens with me so often.
As soon as I have a little bitof free time, something else
needs me.
Speaker 2 (21:23):
It was terrific in that I got to spend a lot of
time with my mom and dad.
But what was hard for me wasjust that reversal, the real
reversal of you.
Know, these are the people thatyou went to for everything and
they took care of you and evenwhen I was older and a parent
(21:44):
and everything, they were therehelping with the kids and
everything.
Then suddenly they're the oneswho need the help and it's just
kind of startling.
Speaker 1 (21:52):
I think yeah, when my mom was in hospice and I knew
that the time was soon, you know, I was feeding her ice cream
like an airplane and I wassitting there saying, yeah, I
mean, the roles have absolutelyreversed and it is probably one
(22:13):
of our hardest transitions.
Speaker 2 (22:15):
I was sitting there saying, yeah, I mean, the roles
have absolutely reversed and itis probably one of our hardest
transitions.
Yeah, I write about that.
And now back to me the chapterabout the pink fairies, which
was a cherry blossom treeoutside my parents' house and
these little pink fluff ballswere coming down.
As my mom and I were sittingthere looking out the window and
(22:36):
I found myself telling her thesame thing I had told my
two-year-old daughter, becausemy mom was like what are those?
What are those?
In her stage of that, and Itold her they were pink fairies,
Went outside and caught one.
We could make a wish, which isexactly what we did.
But just like you're saying,that role reversal really gets
(23:00):
you?
Speaker 1 (23:00):
Yeah, because you see them as the strong one, as the
one you go to, the one that madeit through all of the hard
things in life, and then you'rewatching them not being able to
do that.
One of the things that I lovedabout your book is how it
doesn't just break life intoseasons.
(23:21):
It highlights the power of thetransition, the unexpected
shifts that come with change,the what-ifs and even the small
decisions that end up changingeverything.
You went from working to beingat home, which actually opened
the door to writing, and thatshift led you to your column and
(23:46):
, ultimately, to the work thatyou're doing now.
If you hadn't stayed open towhat life was offering, those
opportunities might have passedyou by.
You know, I had a similarexperience where my own column
just kind of fell in my lap, andit's those times, those
unexpected, unplanned changes,that can shape our paths.
(24:10):
Can you talk more about howlife found you and how being
open allowed you to find yourtrue passions?
Speaker 2 (24:19):
Yeah, well, in terms of what you're talking about, in
terms of writing, I had justfinished my time as a columnist,
at the same time as my daughterleft for college.
However, the good part of thatwas that I had ingrained in me
this need to write, and as mydaughter left and I found myself
(24:42):
in this lost and confused place, I found myself needing to
write and needing to run as well, but that's another story and I
would write a couple hoursevery morning, just get my
thoughts out of me onto paper,and sometimes they made no sense
, and sometimes they started tomake sense, and what ended up
(25:03):
happening over time is that Ieventually I started to realize,
hey, I think I might have abook here, because this writing
was helping me through thistransition.
And then I got the idea in myhead maybe some of the things
that I'm going through and I'mwriting about could help others
(25:23):
go through this transition.
So there's an example of whatyou're saying of having your
mind open.
An example of what you'resaying of having your mind open,
and I wasn't even thinkingabout that, but it just kind of
happened through the way I wasprocessing what was happening to
me.
Speaker 1 (25:42):
Almost all the jobs that I've ever, or even the
directions in my life, have allcome just by being open and not
really realizing where it'sgoing to take me, but being okay
with that.
Speaker 2 (25:49):
Yes, and that's a skill I think that you start to
develop as you grow, to justtrust a little more.
You don't really have control,so just forget about it.
You don't Be in the momentyou're in and let go and just
say you know your mind is goingoh, I gotta figure this out, I
gotta figure no.
No, you don't Just be rightwhere you are and know and trust
(26:13):
.
You've been figuring things outnow for so many years.
You will.
You will figure that out whenyou have to get there, and
that's such a nice way to live.
Speaker 1 (26:25):
Oh yeah, I mean we work so hard at trying to
control everything for such along time and then you are so
right.
I mean we really aren't incontrol of so much and if we
just kind of ride the wave andjust go with it and allow it to
kind of take whatever courseit's going to take, it can be
really quite a ride.
Speaker 2 (26:44):
Yeah, and you find that you have a lot of power
that you don't even realizebecause you're letting go and
you're trusting and believingthat the good things within you
that you unleash will find theirway into the world and they do.
Speaker 1 (27:00):
Yeah, I mean, I never realized that I was going to be
a journalist and a writer andit found me.
And that's what's so awesomeabout it is, if you allow those
things to happen, things canfind you.
Speaker 2 (27:11):
Yeah, and you are a podcaster.
Speaker 1 (27:14):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (27:14):
You're bringing to light many stories that share
with people who relate to it,and then you know that helps a
lot of people in a different waythan your writing did.
Speaker 1 (27:27):
That's what I loved about your writing is that
you're able to help everybody inthe season that they're in, not
just an empty nester.
But for those of us who havelived many of the seasons that
you talked about, there is asaying that I think that we can
all relate to, that the days arelong, but the years are short.
(27:48):
I like that.
Can you reflect on thatstatement?
Speaker 2 (27:51):
Yeah, well, especially when you're
rudderless, when you're lost,when you're confused, when
things aren't making sense, whenthings are difficult and you
have long, long, long days.
But they're going to go by fastbecause you know that person,
you're caring for that childthat's a handful walking out of
(28:13):
the house and you know thatmother of Alzheimer's won't be
there looking at the pinkfairies anymore and you'll miss
that and you'll remember thatand you'll be so glad that you
spent that afternoon there.
So I think that's the sentimentthat you're talking about.
Speaker 1 (28:31):
There were so many parts in your book that I loved,
but one that I really loved waswhen you wanted to freeze time
with your mom.
You were reading with her and,as you said, she had Alzheimer's
and you stopped when you werereading and you wanted to
cherish that moment.
I don't think that we do thatoften enough.
(28:52):
We spend so much of our timelooking at the day's events that
we don't even realize what allhappened when our heads hit the
pillow that night, and we missthe special in it.
All you know your book capturedhow profound each of those
moments really are in our lives.
Can you share how important itis to freeze those moments when
(29:13):
they are actually happening,instead of rushing through them?
Speaker 2 (29:18):
That is something that you know, I think my
parents, my mother's illness inparticular forced me to do
because if I was going to spendtime with her, it was going to
be quiet time, meaningful time.
We baked together, we rodearound.
One day we went to I remember,an apple orchard and she was
(29:41):
just so animated all of a sudden, picking peaches and apples
from a tree.
And it was just in thosemoments and you feel like I have
to hold on to these.
I want to remember and I wouldlike to.
I don't know if I do it, but itwould be great to bring that
type of consciousness into moremoments, even by yourself.
Speaker 1 (30:04):
I have three littles as well, and I have an
eight-year-old.
Oh you do, I do and I'mhomeschooling him and he
absolutely loves to learn.
We were at the zoo yesterday.
I had that feeling.
We were sitting on the benchand we were looking at the lions
(30:24):
and he was eating his Dippin'Dots and I said to myself I want
to just freeze this moment,yeah that's great.
Speaker 2 (30:32):
I love that You're a writer, so write a little
something about that moment andyou'll have it forever.
Because in the writing I knowyou could take a photo, but in
the writing there's all theseother dimensions that don't
appear in the photo.
Speaker 1 (30:46):
When you write from the heart, you can capture so
much more.
One of the things also is thatyou talked about denial.
You talked about our defensesand fear are also topics you
know that are really important,that we live with.
Your mom's diagnosis broughtyou to denial.
If we don't admit it, it's notreal right.
(31:08):
I mean, we've tried that for awhile.
We don't want things to change.
You said denial, not hearing,not seeing, not listening, not
comprehending these are myinadequate defenses.
Then you go into fear and yousay defenses will not work with
(31:29):
fear.
And I say that all the time.
The only way out is throughFace the truth, name it, see it,
feel it, embrace it in all itsmajestic awfulness.
You say that couldn't be atruer statement.
How did you learn to walk withthe hard truths and embrace the
fears?
Speaker 2 (31:49):
It's not easy.
I think you're always learningthat every day I find there'll
be something that pops into myhead and all of a sudden, that's
all I can think of and I'm veryafraid of it.
But you have to defeat itbecause I don't want to live
that way.
I don't want to live where myfear controls me.
You know I had doubt and fearabout publishing a book and you
(32:13):
know, when the day came close tothe launch day, I thought, oh
my goodness, what if it's sopoorly received and I'm just
kidding myself that, you knowthis is going to help anybody.
Or when I had my first event atthe library in our town to
launch the book, I thought whatif people heckle me?
(32:34):
You know, like oh no, yeah, butthat did not happen.
But it could have kept me fromdoing a lot of different things.
But I think that's somethingour other voice wants to conjure
up inside.
Speaker 1 (32:48):
Yeah, I just want to get rid of that other.
It likes to haunt me and Ireally don't know why.
We need to believe in ourselvesmore.
Speaker 2 (32:57):
Yeah that's easier for some people.
Let's just say it.
Men seem to have an easier timewith that.
I think they tend to be muchmore confident.
Speaker 1 (33:07):
Or maybe they just don't care.
Speaker 2 (33:10):
Well, that's a different kind of confidence,
right.
Speaker 1 (33:13):
Right, yeah, I mean, we care so much.
Yeah, something that I'm veryguilty of, that you touch on, is
anticipatory grief.
You said that you have spent alot of time there and you know,
enjoy the now instead of what isto come, and I know that I am
(33:34):
very guilty of that, and why dowe do that?
Speaker 2 (33:38):
That's a good question.
Again, just trying to developthat mindset of trusting
yourself more, as opposed to,you know, fast forwarding.
I'm going to be here, this isgoing to be wrong, I'm going to
have messed up.
Speaker 1 (33:54):
Your book is is so deep and I don't even know what
I loved about it is that it hitsthings that we don't normally
talk about.
You know, they're things thatwe kind of take for granted.
One of the parts of your bookthat does this and this is
something that we do and I don'tthink a lot of us even realize
(34:17):
it is that decades can go by andwe're saying to ourselves, well
, you know, maybe someday.
And then that someday is nowand we're talking, like you know
it could be decades, like yousaid, whether it's deciding to
move or renovate the house, or,you know, maybe it could be
(34:39):
changing career, just anything,and we let life keep us busy or
fearful or distracted so muchuntil one day we realize the
decision still hasn't been made.
Do you think regret might helpus move out of that decisiveness
?
Speaker 2 (34:57):
I know the thing that was in the book about the house
was very emblematic of that.
You know, we were so busy.
A lot of people seem to manageto do things, but we kind of let
our house go.
Instead, we'd always be at likeopen houses and looking at land
and just entertaining all theseschemes, but we never actually
(35:19):
did anything until we finallydid, which was after the kids
left.
We did renovate and I did writeat the end of the book about
the renovation, in particularabout these two great windows we
had put in our bedroom and how.
It just made me realize I don'tknow why we had procrastinated
(35:40):
all that time, because rightthere, right in front of us, was
all the things that we are themost grateful for, and we just
were so busy that we didn't evensee it.
Speaker 1 (35:52):
I also loved your Yellow Kitchen.
Oh, I loved that chapterbecause it made me think of the
song.
Speaker 2 (36:08):
The House that Made Me, it took me through your
journey in a room and that wasso beautifully done and
realizing I was now the one whoknew the recipe and we were
making banana bread and she wasjust stirring the bowl but I had
to tell her what we wereputting in and everything.
(36:30):
But then by the end of the timeI spent with her I realized
maybe, not, maybe she's stillthe one that's got the recipe.
Just the way she was handlingin her kind of augmented state
of being how she was handling itand her loved ones and
everything it was like she stillknew that was pretty amazing.
Speaker 1 (36:52):
You talk about your relationship with your sister
throughout the entire book aswell.
How did your relationship withyour sister change throughout
the seasons?
How do siblings in general doyou think our relationships
change with our siblingsthroughout the seasons?
Speaker 2 (37:10):
My sister and I, I would say the whole season, as
you put it, of our parentsneeding us so much and having so
much responsibility.
We changed from two kind ofcarefree, different individuals
to it was like we became parents.
(37:30):
We joined at the hip because wehad to make decisions about how
to care for our parents andthat, I got to say, was very
stressful and strained at timesbecause we didn't always have
the same ideas, but it also wasa cooperative thing, because
(37:50):
neither of us could have done italone.
Speaker 1 (37:52):
So, and now we're a little more carefree, which I,
like you know, you had a littlebit of a different idea on how
to do it.
You both just wanted the bestfor them.
Speaker 2 (38:02):
Yes, you know that was the change Instead of my
husband being the partner for mein terms of caregiving, my
sister was, and getting used todifferent styles and different
ideas, we did it.
Speaker 1 (38:16):
I want to touch on your weight chapter for a minute
.
First of all, bullies yes, notokay.
Not okay that what the bullieswrote wouldn't come off of your
house for a while there.
I don't know why anyone feelsthat they have the right to put
someone down and make them feelless than I hated that.
(38:37):
They gave you attention whenyou were summer slim, rita, but
when you saw yourself with extrapounds and I liked how you
worded that too, I liked thatyou worded it at what you saw
yourself with extra pounds theydidn't give you the time of day.
Yes, you know you share thestruggles so many people have
(38:57):
with our body and mind, and Ithink we often hold on to the
things that we feel we havecontrol over, like our weight,
when everything feels out ofcontrol around us.
Is that what the digital scaledid for you?
Speaker 2 (39:12):
That was the whole entire book.
I would say that was the mostdifficult chapter not to write
but to decide to put in a bookbecause it still has this shame.
I guess from when I was littleand I was the chubby girl and I
had I mentioned some of thethings in the book that happened
(39:34):
to me and I think it was adifferent time too.
When I was growing up I thinkthere was less attention on
being respectful of others anddifferent people and don't say
this or that.
Like fat Rita could be put onmy house in shaving cream by the
boys in the neighborhood andthat was fine.
(39:57):
And then the next day when theshaving cream had some of the
chemicals had kind of gone intothe paint and that was fine.
And then the next day when theshaving cream had some of the
chemicals had kind of gone intothe paint and that fat Rita was
going to stay there until my dadrepainted the house.
That was a horrible time for meand you just started to learn
all these awful lessons, likewhat I tried to express in about
(40:18):
in the summer you're one thingbecause you're slim, and in the
winter, if you put on a fewpounds, then you're looked at as
a different thing.
I just felt in the end I amsharing that because I'm not the
only one, and writing in and ofitself is vulnerable, but a
memoir is even more so, and Ijust decided if I want readers
(40:41):
to relate to what I'm saying andI do then I have to be totally
honest, and that was the choiceI made with that chapter and
actually the whole book.
But that, I think, is reallyimportant and that's the control
aspect and you actually referto that.
Speaker 1 (41:06):
You said when you were talking about the scale
that the scale is cold, hardevidence that I'm in control and
I see them the numbers on thescale for what they really are
an illusion.
So can you touch on that?
Speaker 2 (41:20):
Yeah.
So in emptiness, especially theearly year or so, I just kind
of got a little too obsessedwith my weight, as my son said
to me.
He said, mom, it's becauseeverything else in your life is
out of control, so you thinkthis will give you control.
And he was right.
(41:40):
Fortunately, I worked throughthat.
But in that moment, you know, Iwas like I got to weigh in, I
got to weigh less.
That's not good.
Speaker 1 (41:50):
Well, control is a big deal in our lives.
Letting go, when to let go, howto let go it's something that
weaves in and out of our life,through our entire life.
Speaker 2 (42:01):
Yeah, that's true, but I'm in this spot now where I
trust, so I have let go of that.
Speaker 1 (42:08):
I'd love that you use the word trust to be the
opposite of control.
Speaker 2 (42:13):
It seems like it to me because, instead of trying to
orchestrate everything down tomicro things like don't even
worry about what's for dinner,because when we get to dinner
we'll say what's for dinner.
Speaker 1 (42:25):
Again a letting go.
Here's another hard truth thatI want to talk about.
From your book I saw that yousaid how do we explore who we
really are when we are clingingto the familiar?
How can we get in touch withthat no-transcript children that
(43:13):
go down there don't come backup?
Oh my God.
And so my friend and I.
Oh my God, and so my friend andI.
We would go down one step andthen run back up, and then down
two and then run back up andthen three.
We did, friend, like I made it,and it was like it's that same
feeling you know of when you'regoing into the unknown, into
(43:34):
that uncertain, and it's kind offunny because nothing happened,
(43:58):
you know, I was fine, andthat's what happens a lot of
times when we go into thoseunknown areas and allow ourself
to be there.
Can you share a moment when youtook a leap into the unfamiliar
territory and it ended upshaping your life in a beautiful
or unexpected way?
Speaker 2 (44:12):
Well, I'll go back to publishing this book, because I
wanted to publish a book for along time.
I had no idea what to expect,and every moment since that and
it's been about two months thatthe book has been out I find
myself feeling uncomfortable.
And then I tell myself that'sokay, if you're going to grow,
(44:33):
you're going to be uncomfortable.
But, like my very first podcast, I was like what am I going to
do?
What am I going to do?
What am I going to say?
Or every event that I've hadand I've had quite a few of them
now is different, and so I havenow come to the conclusion that
I'm going to walk into I haveone Saturday expecting anything,
(44:55):
because they've all beendifferent.
So I am letting go and justsaying, yes, this might be very
uncomfortable or it might beterrific.
And actually every single one,even though they started out as
uncomfortable because I didn'tknow what I was getting into,
there were great things thathappened in them.
Speaker 1 (45:16):
Yeah, every single time that happens with me and
I'm autistic, so sometimes it'svery difficult for me to meet
new people and things like that.
But this has been great for meto do a podcast and do the
unknown, and when I startedjournalism, that's what got me
to the point where I wascomfortable with having
conversations with people andlearning interviewing skills.
(45:38):
So I mean, you just never knowhow those things are going to
help you later.
Speaker 2 (45:44):
A perfect example.
Every time you invite somebodyonto your podcast, you have no
idea what you're getting.
You've never spoken with mebefore and you don't know what
the conversation will be like,but yet you're open to it.
It might be a littleuncomfortable to if you've
thought about that, if youdwelled upon that thought, but
you just come in open heartedand have a discussion.
Speaker 1 (46:08):
Right, it comes down to wanting to be different and
wanting more and not, you know,staying stuck.
Yes, one of the things that youtalked about and this is this
was interesting you paintedadulting as kind of mundane.
You know, we get sick, we get ajob, we lose our job, we lose
our way, we need money, we paythe bills, we make mistakes, we
(46:30):
fix the mistakes, but then youshare how something was missing
in your life and it became a NewYear's resolution.
What was that?
Speaker 2 (46:40):
That's always like one of my favorite chapters,
whenever anybody asks me that,because it is the way to live.
It's like find your bliss, it'sthere, you just have to choose
to find it.
And that particular morning wasa January morning when that
revelation came to me.
Our daughter had just come homefor her first winter break and
(47:03):
she was having second thoughtsabout college.
And I had gone for a run and itwas freezing, freezing,
freezing, cold out.
And January was January in NewEngland and the wind was
whipping and I had just finishedmy run run and I was just
coming up to our driveway andthere I saw my neighbor, jackie,
and she had this bright pinkparka and she was walking her
(47:26):
two yellow labs and she said itmust be so fun having your
daughter home, and isn't it nice.
The wind is so crisp and clearand the sky is blue.
And she was just in such agreat mood out there walking her
dogs and I just had that visualstuck in my head for the rest
of the day and I just thoughtthat's it, it's freezing, so
(47:49):
what?
I have a pink parka and I'mjust going to enjoy my dogs.
Then, when you start lookingthrough that lens, you start to
see lots of other things thatcan make you smile.
That is a great way to live.
Just look for the optimistic,happy thing around you and all
the rest you'll get through, butthere's something that's going
(48:10):
to make your day.
Speaker 1 (48:11):
Maybe you got that from your dad, because you do
touch on how he is.
How he was with.
That is how he was with that.
How did your friend's advicechange you when you said try to
take the time to do the thingsthat will make you happy?
In spite of it all, this isyour life, your one and only one
.
Speaker 2 (48:31):
And that's my friend Kathy, who we went out on
another cold night to celebrateher birthday.
That's what she said at ourlittle gathering and I thought,
wow, what a gift.
She's right.
She's at the point of she's alittle further along in her
empty nest of reallyreevaluating things and saying
(48:52):
it out loud that choose, choosehow you want to live.
If you don't like something,change it, make this your time,
and that had big impact on theway I was thinking.
Speaker 1 (49:05):
I also liked how your aunt pretty much gave you
permission to just do yourpassion.
You know she was like well, ifyou want to write, write, yeah,
it seems so simple, but not atthe same time.
Speaker 2 (49:18):
Yeah that was my Auntie Gert, and she came to me
in a dream and I had beenwrestling with what to do with
my career, what should I bedoing?
And she was always like.
She was very short and she hadthese very piercing blue eyes.
She always said exactly whatwas on her mind.
And in that dream she came tome and she said if you want to
(49:41):
be a writer, write.
If you want to write, justwrite.
And I just like resonated.
I was like that's it, what am Italking about?
I just got to get at it.
It sounds so simple.
Yes, it's not, but it is Justkeep doing it.
Speaker 1 (49:58):
One of my other favorite parts this was actually
very beautiful.
It was not, but it is if youjust keep doing it.
One of my other favorite partsthis was actually very beautiful
.
It was hard, but it wasbeautiful at the same time was
your parents' relationship, andI loved how, when your dad
realized it was getting towardsthe end there, she needed to go
to the hospital, and I justpictured that chapter went into
slow motion for me as you talkedabout how he combed her hair
(50:21):
and he helped get her ready andhe was walking her out.
How did your parents'relationship shape you?
Speaker 2 (50:30):
Oh, absolutely shaped me.
They were always very lovingtoward each other and towards
both my sister and I, and it wasand extended on to our kids and
everything.
And they just taught me andthat's why the dedication in the
book is to Elaine and Andre foralways believing in God, in
(50:56):
love and in me, and that kind oftells you where they come from,
the type of people they were.
I was so blessed with them.
Speaker 1 (51:05):
Yeah, you do touch about how where you come from is
where you were heading.
What did you mean by that?
Is that what you meant, I?
Speaker 2 (51:15):
said that a lot of where you are has to do with
where you come from, right, andI think my sister and I I think
it was in the chapter about usand that we both had that
background.
So I think that shaped how wewould move forward.
And I had, at one of my events,somebody asked me an impossible
(51:39):
question which was so you werefortunate enough to have this
family, so I did not.
How do you think you would havewritten this book if you had a
different family?
Because I said I am so blessedand that's the whole context of
(52:00):
my life that I approach thingswith is what I was given through
my loving parents.
So I just cannot imagine theperson I would be, the choices I
would have made if I had hadanother upbringing.
You wrote from your perspective.
You wrote what you knew Exactly, so I could not even begin to
imagine.
(52:21):
I felt for that person askingthat question.
Speaker 1 (52:24):
And you talked a little bit about your dad's
perspective earlier.
He seemed like quite the man,you say.
His inspiration reminds me thatour attitude means more than
any of our circumstances, and Ithink that that's so important.
That perspective really carriesme through life.
Our mindset possesses theawesome power to change the
(52:46):
course of our moments, our daysand, yes, our lives.
Your dad embraced every moment.
What an example he must havebeen for you.
Speaker 2 (52:57):
He was amazing.
He was just such a gregariousguy, such a people person.
He loved people, he just lovedfamily and he, you know he went
through a lot of health issuesin his living.
But he would be the first to betelling this nurse or you know
that doctor, wow, you are like amiracle worker, You're
(53:20):
wonderful, Thank you so much forcoming into my room and helping
me.
And they would just be stunnedbecause it was so unusual.
And then when he got better,he'd always follow up with
little gifts that he'd bringover to the hospital or to the
doctor's office and thankingnotes and he was just
(53:40):
appreciative and grateful foreverything he had.
Speaker 1 (53:43):
You're really touching on something there.
We can find gratitude ineverything, no matter how
difficult it is.
I think it's really importantbecause lots of times we find
the gratitude in the hindsight,you know, and looking back
instead of in the moment, and Ithink your book really captures
that.
Speaker 2 (54:00):
Yeah, I hope it does, because I'm feeling that.
I'm feeling that now talkingwith you, so I'm so grateful for
this.
Speaker 1 (54:09):
Yeah, I'm so grateful that you're on.
You know, the end of your bookwas really interesting to me.
Going on this run through yourmemories and I've gone back to
where I grew up, which is notfar from where I live, but I
don't go there very often.
But in all the stages of mylife, you know, I go back to
(54:31):
those places and I see a memoryon every corner, the bittersweet
, you know, the good, the badand the ugly, and I try to
embrace them all.
But you say you've come totruly appreciate that your
marriage, your children, yourfamily, friends and community
are the real gifts in life.
So many times when we areyounger we are looking
(54:51):
everywhere for fulfillment, whenit's right in front of us, and
it takes a lifetime of lookingin the rearview mirror to see
that.
As your book points out, weneed to slow down to see it and
realize that what we are seekingfor is often right in front of
(55:12):
us.
And I love the question thiswas one of my favorite After
your youngest did move out howdid I get here so quickly?
How is it possible that I'm onthe same road, passing the same
trees, the same houses, the samefaces, and yet, as I turn into
my driveway, nothing feels thesame, nothing seems to fit
(55:35):
anymore.
I've gone back to places I oncewalked as a kid, as I raised my
older two kids, and nothingfelt the same, but yet nothing
changed.
You know, it's such a surrealfeeling.
Speaker 2 (55:49):
It is.
I can even remember that momentwhen you just start to realize,
boy, look at these peoplewaiting at the bus, stop.
I'm not there and everythingjust felt like you were floating
in some other world and I was.
Speaker 1 (56:04):
Yeah, I know what it's like to drive down a road,
like after my dad passed away orwhatever.
I mean, it's like you're goingdown the same road that you've
always gone to.
You're going past everythingand everything is exactly the
same.
Going past everything andeverything is exactly the same.
Speaker 2 (56:22):
Nothing's changed, but you are, so nothing looks
the same.
Yes, that's exactly right.
So many times in this emptynest transition that happened to
me, I would be in a familiarplace and expect something to
happen, like the ballet kidswould come out of the studio
where I took yoga and mydaughter's there, right?
(56:44):
No, no, she's not, and it wouldjust be startling.
Speaker 1 (56:49):
Yeah, because everything's changed.
Those places that we went tolike when my kids swam, they're
not in the pool anymore.
Speaker 2 (56:57):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (56:58):
I know it's very difficult, but I wanted to thank
you for this book about life,because that's what it's about
talking about the things that wedon't normally talk about.
Thank you for walking throughlife's
not-so-obvious-in-the-momentlessons that only make sense in
(57:20):
the rearview mirror.
I encourage everyone to pick upRita's book.
And Now Back to Me Stories froman Empty Nest.
I wanted to end with one morequick question, because I
thought about this.
And if I had a signpost at acrossroad or someone coming up
(57:41):
behind me on a similar path,what would my sign say?
You know, it made me reallywant to think about that and I
started jotting down trust thejourney.
You may not see what is ahead,but every step forward will
reveal what you're ready to see.
That's so terrific.
(58:03):
What would yours be, I waswondering.
I think it would use that wordtrust.
Speaker 2 (58:10):
You've come this far, you've accomplished this much.
Trust yourself, Just trustyourself.
Trust the moment, and this iswhere you're supposed to be.
Enjoy it, yeah.
Speaker 1 (58:22):
I mean, we're not meant to have the whole map in
front of us, right?
Just have to have the courageto take the next step.
Yes, appreciate you being heretoday.
It really meant a lot to me.
This was great.
Speaker 2 (58:36):
Well, thank you.
It meant a lot to me to havethis opportunity and to talk
with you.
Speaker 1 (58:42):
How can people reach you?
Do you have a website?
Speaker 2 (58:46):
The book is available on Amazon and Bookshop and
pretty much in bookstores, butthe go-to site is my website.
It's RitaLucerecom and it hasthe book, information and more
information about me.
And you can message me throughthere too, and to our listeners.
Speaker 1 (59:08):
I just want to tell everybody thank you so much for
being here today and, as wealways say, remember there is
purpose in the pain and there ishope in the journey.
And pick up Rita's book.
Read it, because, trust me, youwill get so much out of it I
know I did and I probably willread it again.
So, again, thank you so muchfor being here today and we will
(59:33):
see you next time.
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