March 26, 2025 • 57 mins
Tina and Anne explore the complex relationship between joy and grief, examining how these seemingly opposite emotions often coexist and even strengthen each other. They share personal stories of experiencing both simultaneously and discuss strategies for allowing both emotions to breathe.
• Joy and grief create an emotional tug of war that varies in response – sometimes numbing, sometimes pushing, sometimes inspiring
• Past trauma can make it difficult to trust joy, creating a pattern of expecting something bad after experiencing happiness
• Grief can push someone into survival mode, making it harder to let joy in
• Holding onto grief can feel like the last connection to someone we've lost
• Allowing both joy and grief requires giving ourselves permission to feel everything
• Tina's son demonstrates remarkable resilience after a sports injury, showing character by focusing on supporting teammates
• Creating rituals to honor both emotions can help process grief while making space for joy
• Living with chronic grief doesn't mean excluding joy – it's a daily choice to let in both
Remember, there's purpose in the pain and hope in the journey. Joy and grief are not opposites but companions that reflect the full richness of life.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
Welcome to Real Talk with Tina and Anne.
I am Tina.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
And I am Anne.
Tina, in a recent episode, youtold a story about how your
grandmother died the day afteryour son was born.
You said the words talk aboutliving with joy and grief, and
I'll tell you what it justsparked this thing in me.
Living with joy and grief issomething that I think that we
(00:33):
do all the time.
I thought you know that verymoment in time when joy and
grief meet at the exact sametime.
It's the very thing that keptme stopped in a moment in time
and it stunned me for decades.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
I think I have been stopped in moments of time as
well for those very same reasons.
But I will say what I havelearned over the years of
recognizing that joy and griefhave to coexist not need to,
they have to is that it hasrelieved me of feeling bad about
(01:18):
the good in my life whilegrieving something hard.
So I think it's okay andcompletely normal to feel both
of those emotions, and often,like you said, at the same time,
because life is precious andfragile, beautiful and broken,
and there's so much of the timewhere we're going to feel these
two very polar opposite butsometimes interconnected
(01:40):
feelings.
Speaker 2 (01:42):
You know what I learned very young about the
complexity of emotions and howjoy and grief are not
emotionally exclusive.
You know how we talked aboutlife being cyclical.
Well, it is, but it is also soenmeshed and the two at times
(02:06):
can't be separated, no matterwhat.
What happens when you feel themboth at the exact same time?
Speaker 1 (02:16):
That's a good question and for me I think it
varies.
So let me explain.
Sometimes it numbs me, itvaries, so let me explain.
Sometimes it numbs me,sometimes it pushes me,
sometimes it inspires me.
It's definitely I woulddescribe it as an emotional tug
of war.
So the joy lifts you up, thegrief pulls you down, and
(02:37):
sometimes that combination canlead to a deeper sense of
emotional processing andsometimes it kind of provides a
kind of catharsis, so allowingyou to honor both the beauty of
the moment and the sadness thatcomes with it.
You know, truly, we're not onthis earth for very long.
It might seem like it some days, but no truer statement than
(02:58):
the days are long, but the yearsare short.
And sometimes for me thosefeelings of pain and grief
coexisting just signal I need torest, because sometimes that's
all I can do to kind of givemyself a break from all of it.
I would also say I feel likesometimes it is a reminder of
(03:19):
really probably more often thannot the complexity of human
emotions.
So where one event orexperience can stir multiple
feelings at the same time, italso reflects the richness of
our lives.
So I will give you an examplethat I often feel frequently of
joy and grief meeting together.
(03:41):
So often I see and I'm sure manyof you see a mom and her mom,
so a mom and a grandma outtogether at a store or maybe at
the zoo, and usually grandkidsare in tow.
It makes me smile to see thefamily all together bonding, and
it does bring me joy because Isee them enjoying it so much.
At the same time, inside I wantto cry because I yearn for that
(04:06):
for myself and for my boys.
You know, grandparents are ahuge part of children's lives
and my mom and I have alwaysbeen so close, you know we would
meet at all these places and gotogether.
And so her disease ofAlzheimer's has stolen that from
me and from our boys.
And on my husband's side somevery, very poor decisions by
(04:28):
some of his closest familymembers have forced some strict
boundaries.
So I constantly feel that tugof war of joy for others who
have what I don't, but grief forme and my children who yearn
for that type of connection.
Speaker 2 (04:49):
You know, I think one of the things is that we have
to give ourselves permission tofeel both and I think many times
we feel guilty if we feel anykind of joy, like the birth of
your baby.
At the same time, the family ishaving this horrific loss and
it is giving yourself permissionto feel both and it being okay
(05:12):
to feel some joy when there'salso a loss.
Speaker 1 (05:17):
Yeah, I think allowing yourself permission to
feel happy and sad at the sametime or, you know, grief and joy
at the same time I think thatis absolutely key and it does
take practice, because I think Idon't know even what would make
us feel like we can only feelone thing at once, but it really
is okay and it's very normaland common to feel multiple
(05:40):
different emotions all at thesame time.
So I think that you know, letme I'm an example person.
So let's say that you may havejust gotten the job that you've
been dreaming of, while a goodfriend of yours didn't get
theirs or just lost theirs.
It is completely okay to behappy for yourself and for your
(06:00):
family while also feeling sadand grieving for your friend and
their family about that news.
You know that's just I feel likea good example of how it
coexists, and I'm sure that thefriend who lost their job is
equally happy for you.
Truthfully, if you're goodfriends, that is how it works,
and so I have just noticed thatI think a lot of times people
(06:25):
will assume oh, you know, Idon't want to say anything.
Okay, here you know what?
Let me give you another example, and I'm going to talk about
this a little in depth.
My son has his first majorsports injury We'll get into
that here a little bit later onin this episode and I commented
that my godson played afantastic game.
I heard he hit seventhree-pointers in his game and
(06:48):
my son and my husband, who wentto the game and watched it, were
so excited.
The whole team was so excited,and when I said that to his
parents, they didn't reallyacknowledge that in the text
message, almost like they feltbad, saying I know, wasn't it a
great game?
And it was like it's okay thatmy kid couldn't play.
He was still very much a partof it by watching.
And you can be happy for yourson and also sad for mine, and I
(07:10):
can be happy for your dad formine, Do you?
Speaker 2 (07:13):
know what I mean.
Right, yeah, absolutely yeah.
I mean, I think, one of thehardest things I didn't do for
myself and I didn't do formyself and I didn't give myself
permission to feel the happinessduring really difficult times
in my life, for example, theloss of my dad.
(07:33):
You know I've talked about mydad's death many times on the
podcast because it was legitprobably the worst time in my
entire life and it is when mylife stopped as I knew it and it
was a death of so many thingsand it happened at one of the
best times of my life.
(07:54):
So that was where thecontradiction really happened
for me, where joy and grief hitme at the exact same time.
For me, where joy and grief hitme at the exact same time and I
was at this right beat not toolong before he passed away.
I was one of the top seeds inthis meet and it was my birthday
(08:16):
and I got called in to dancewith the maitre d' and they said
you know, and my ann davis isthere and she is, uh, this top
seat in this for me, and I don'teven know why they made a big
deal out of it, but they did.
It was really kind of a coolthing at this restaurant.
(08:37):
And so I had this amazing nextfew months after that and then
bam, he kissed me Good morningthe next morning and that was it
.
Never saw him again.
So you know, I think many timesjoy is absolutely mixed with
(08:57):
grief.
I even feel it when I'mwatching a show.
Sometimes I immediately startto feel this uneasiness inside
myself.
It's like one of those thingswhen you just know something
really bad is going to happen ona show.
That happens sometimes.
Well, oftentimes, when I'mwatching SVU, you know they're
all having a good time at aparty or they're all laughing
walking down the street orwhatever, and you, just you can
(09:20):
see it.
It's like you know, you knowsomething really bad is going to
happen.
So you know, I wondered foreverwhy I didn't trust happy times.
Well, I think I just proved why.
I mean I lived way too much ofmy life not letting true joy in.
After that happened with my dad.
Speaker 1 (09:41):
And I can see I really can, having gone through
experiences like that and thenresearching because this
question that you asked andmaybe you didn't really ask it,
but just this illustration ledme to want to kind of dive
deeper into what are somereasons why, when someone has a
grief-filled life, it can bereally, really hard to allow joy
(10:01):
to come in, even if we deeplywant and need to experience it.
So here's what.
Here are some of the reasons Icame up with.
You know, grief can shape aperson's worldview and emotional
landscape in a way that makesjoy feel far away and even not
deserved at times.
So one of the things I hadlearned is that grief can push
(10:24):
someone into a constant state ofsurvival mode.
Oh boy, can I relate to that.
And I think many of us canbecoming attached to happiness
(10:47):
again, thinking that if they gettoo close to joy they might
lose it as well.
I've fallen into this trap manytimes too.
You know a fear of love or afear of joy.
Speaker 2 (10:53):
As soon as I have felt success or happiness, it's
almost like I'm waiting forsomething really bad to happen
after yeah.
Speaker 1 (11:06):
One of the other things I came up with is that we
feel unworthy of joy because ofpast experiences.
Speaker 2 (11:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (11:16):
Now here was something else.
So grief often connects peopleto the past, the memories of
what was lost, what could havebeen, and for some that weight
can completely overshadow thepossibility of joy.
I think so many of us haveprobably also experienced this
too as one of the reasons whyit's harder to let the joy in.
But here's the thing Joy andgrief can coexist and they have
(11:40):
to.
Allowing joy in during a grieffilled life requires permission
and it requires vulnerability.
Allowing joy and during agrief-filled life requires
permission and it requiresvulnerability.
And sometimes the process ofopening up to joy is part of the
healing journey and, like allthings, it can really take time.
So I would say just don't rushit, let yourself feel.
As I've said before, feeling ishealing.
(12:01):
You have to feel it to heal it.
Speaker 2 (12:07):
That's, I think you know, and one of the biggest
things they always said about mewas that I was really stoic and
I didn't allow, and I thinkthat I really did feel things.
But I think that I just, youknow, I shut myself off so much
and you're right, I mean it's,if you want to keep the pain out
, you end up keeping it all out,and that's really unfortunate.
It was a long time before Isaid I'm going to allow things
(12:34):
in, and now I mean I let mostthings in.
If you would know, the day thatI had Tina which I kind of
think that you do in a way theway that we started before we
actually went on air, yeah, Imean I have been all about it.
I had every emotion today.
So there you go.
Speaker 1 (12:55):
It would have been a funnier podcast if we were
recording our little chatbeforehand.
But you know, here's what Ithink.
I think that holding on togrief can feel like the last
tether to a person or experiencethey've lost too.
So letting go of that grief tomake room for joy might feel
(13:16):
like you're forgetting orbetraying what's been lost or
who is gone.
I can really relate to this.
With the passing of my beloveddogs it can be just all
consuming.
I lost my best friend, my dogCooper, four years ago and I
can't believe it's been thatlong already and still to this
(13:38):
day it's like I could feel him,I can see him, I remember the
ways that he brought me such joy, or just his little nuances,
and how awful it was.
The hardest goodbye for sure,and for the longest time.
And we still haven't been ableto get another dog, and we lost
our other dog two years ago.
So I still haven't been able toquite move forward with another
(14:02):
dog, because I feel like I'mbetraying Cooper.
I feel like, and Georgie, Ifeel like getting another dog
means I'm saying I love this dognow and not them, even though I
know that I can love them all.
It's just really this one reallystuck out to me because this is
(14:23):
really, what I feel a lot ofmost consistently is that I'm
betraying or that I don't wantto forget and I'll never forget
that feeling of losing my dogCooper.
The very next morning it wasthis overwhelming grief that
woke me up and I had to cling toevery photo that I had of him.
So it was a really interestingfeeling that I've been expecting
(14:43):
because I didn't want to forget, and even when my mom was first
diagnosed I started writingdown and I actually still do
this things that I want toremember you know, fear of pain,
exhaustion from constantlyprocessing pain does seem to
(15:11):
leave a little less space forlighter or easier emotions like
joy to come in.
But sometimes even, I thinksociety or cultural norms even
can make someone feel like theyshould be grieving for a certain
amount of time or should begrieving a certain way, when the
truth is there is no time frameand we do all grieve
differently.
Speaker 2 (15:30):
Yeah, you know you talked about that with your dogs
.
I actually have made collages.
I take, I print a bunch ofpictures of my animals after
they pass and then I make acollage and it just, and then I
also take some of the picturesand I put them in places where
they would lay and things likethat, you know, and it just
(15:52):
makes me feel like you knowthey're there.
I don't know, but my one catwho passed away in just a few
months ago, um, I have hispicture right where he would be
every single time I wouldhomeschool my son, so it just
makes me feel like he's there.
And we got another cat 20 dayslater and it was really hard.
(16:14):
I didn't want to replace Yoshiand Axel will never replace
Yoshi.
In fact, I'll talk to Axelabout Yoshi a lot of times and I
just feel like I just need thatconnection, though I need to
hold an animal.
It's just really important tous.
But you know, tina, how youhave talked about, how you have
(16:37):
had to work really hard on yourrelationship with God and I had
to at times and finding thatrelationship with him again.
And I understand that so muchbecause joy and I feel that I've
had the joy knocked out of meat times.
That joy is related to God andwhen you think of him you think
(17:00):
of how could that have happened?
I mean, how could he have letsomething like this happen?
Speaker 1 (17:06):
sometimes, it's a question that I think about a
lot for various situations, notjust the personal ones, but even
things that go on in the worldin general, and so I was just
counseling about this a coupleweeks ago, and the answer that
I've come to and been told isbecause we live in a broken
(17:28):
world.
It is not how God wanted it.
We live in a broken world.
God will help make somethinggood out of the hard, even if we
have to wait until heaven forthat.
Quote reward.
Speaker 2 (17:40):
I mean, I really believe that it's a hard pill to
swallow, though, too.
So many times I hear people sayyou know, God did this, and it's
always like no, he allowed itto happen.
But I really believe thatthere's going to be something
that comes out of it that can beused for good.
And I know that that's reallyhard, especially in the world
(18:03):
that we live in right now and insome really horrific situations
it's hard to see that andsometimes it takes a really long
time and it takes a really longtime for our hearts to mend and
, like we're saying here, forthe joy to come back in.
But you know, I learned reallyyoung that if I'm going to keep
the pain out, I'm going to keepthe joy out, Like I said earlier
(18:23):
, I'm going to keep the joy out,like I said earlier.
So everything I've beeninvolved with where it's brought
in emotion, I've kept joy atarm's length and sometimes I
think that I keep myself frombeing successful, more
successful in things because ofthat reason alone.
Speaker 1 (18:40):
I think this is the hardest part about these two
emotions.
It's hard but it is mostnecessary.
We still need to allow joy andpain in, or allow light in the
darkness.
We have nothing, so we have tokeep that hope and allow
(19:07):
ourselves to let light in thedarkness.
It's the whole mindset of afterevery storm, there's a rainbow
of hope or joy comes in themorning, joy being the light
after the darkness, and I haveto keep walking toward that.
Speaker 2 (19:18):
I have had to learn that grief does not cancel joy.
Grief does not cancel joy, andthat's been really hard for me
to realize.
So how, what do you feel aboutthat?
Do you think that grief cancancel joy?
Speaker 1 (19:37):
I think it can temporarily stop the joy that
you feel, because I would go outon a limb to say there's
probably more profound griefthat happens in our life than
perhaps profound joy.
Let me explain.
So.
If you have someone that youlove, okay, you know what.
(20:00):
I'll just take my personalsituation.
So my mom diagnosed at age 59with early onset Alzheimer's.
We are now in the year 2025 andshe is now this will be her
sixth year into this dreadeddisease.
That diagnosis shattered me.
I've had a stillborn baby.
(20:20):
I have lost cousins toaddiction Lots of other things
that have happened in my life.
I had been able to handle thosefairly well.
This one crushed me.
So what I'm saying is the griefof this outweighed any joy at
the time, because it was such abig hit, it was such a big loss,
(20:42):
and so I think in a way, Iagree with you Grief shouldn't
cancel joy, but I think at timesit temporarily can, but that's
why it's so important tocontinue to let that light in.
You know, grief is not this oneand done feeling.
(21:03):
It's ongoing, it is layered.
It doesn't just vanish withtime or new experiences.
Whether the experiences aregood or bad, you really still
again have to feel it to heal it.
So I think you can experiencemultiple emotions at once, and
one does not necessarilyovershadow or cancel the other.
Speaker 2 (21:22):
Yeah, back when I was a journalist there was a man
who I knew and actually got tointerview for the newspaper and
he had lost his child.
He was a man of God, he wouldpreach and it got to the point
where he no longer did that.
But it was hard for him to singthe hymns.
(21:43):
He said, you know, it was justit had reached a point where he
just couldn't sing those praisesand anybody could understand
that.
Speaker 1 (21:54):
I think I can relate, yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:56):
I mean there's been absolute times in my life where
and in fact I've never gone backto a physical church but I do
absolutely have had times in mylife where I struggled with
being well.
I mean, I can even have areally rough day and it's like
okay, god, thanks, Thanks a lot,you know, but I know it's not
(22:18):
his fault, but you know, I meanit can happen where, like what
we're talking about here, canjust feel so enmeshed the two
feelings, feel so enmeshed thetwo feelings, and so you don't
want to sing praises to God atthat time when you're having a
really difficult time.
You know, after my dad passedaway, I didn't want to accept my
(22:42):
first award and I won rightafter and they said, you know,
they had the award ceremony andI wasn't up there and they
called my name to go up and Iwould not go.
And you know what I said.
When they said, ann, you needto go up, I said I don't deserve
(23:03):
it.
I don't even know why I saidthat.
Speaker 1 (23:07):
Well, that goes back to what we were talking about
earlier.
It's just what grief can do.
Speaker 2 (23:12):
For some reason I felt I didn't deserve joy.
I couldn't even accept it.
And then after that, I wouldpurposefully lose and I didn't
even realize I was doing that.
And then, all of a sudden, Istarted seeing that I was
purposefully slowing down.
Right before I would hit thatwall, I found myself where I
(23:35):
would taste success, whatever.
That is, whether it begraduating from high school
where my aunt died right beforegraduation and all my family was
at her funeral and not at mygraduation.
And so then, when it came tocollege, I didn't go to my
graduation.
And well, I mean, I did, but Isat in the audience, I guess you
(23:58):
could say, and I watchedeverybody else go across the
stage.
It's kind of like this thingwhere, if you could do this with
me, it's kind of like this oldsaying that in this book that I
used to read when I was justhaving fun, it's called
Tomfoolery, so just say that'sgood or that's bad.
After everything that, I sayOkay, and maybe a lot of people
(24:20):
have already even heard this.
So I was in an airplane.
Oh, that's good, I fell out.
Speaker 1 (24:28):
Oh, that's bad.
Speaker 2 (24:29):
But I had a parachute oh that's good.
I fell out oh that's bad.
Speaker 1 (24:31):
But I had a parachute .
Oh, that's good.
Speaker 2 (24:32):
Well, it didn't open.
That's bad.
Well, there was a haystackright under me.
Speaker 1 (24:39):
That's good.
Speaker 2 (24:41):
No, there was a pitchfork in the haystack.
Oh, that's really bad.
Well, I missed the pitchfork.
Speaker 1 (24:48):
Okay, that's good.
Speaker 2 (24:50):
I also missed the haystack.
Speaker 1 (24:54):
Wow, yeah, I feel like that's something that goes
on in my head about differentthings.
Speaker 2 (25:03):
I mean, isn't that life though?
Speaker 1 (25:05):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, yeah, it's a really
good illustration.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely yeah,it's a really good illustration.
Speaker 2 (25:11):
You know, I think that we need to be mindful on
both emotions and have ritualsfor honoring both at the same
time, if possible.
I know my friend Carrie, herdad passed away and we went to
the beach.
We went to Myrtle Beach and wedrank his favorite pop.
(25:32):
So you know, I watched.
I Love Lucy and Carol Burnettto remember my mom on the day
that she passed away.
So you see what I mean.
There was a person in my lifethat caused me my mom as much
pain as she did teach mestrength, so it can even come
(25:52):
down to something like thatwhere two things can butt up
against each other.
She was so complex and when Ithink of this same person, a
person who gave me so much painin my life, she also, at the
same time, showed me how strongthat a person could be.
And so you know, she was one ofthe strongest people that I
(26:15):
think that I ever met.
I respected her as abusinesswoman.
I respected who she was, evenwhen she was dying.
She was making phone calls topeople canceling their tax
appointments because she woulddo taxes for free for the
elderly who couldn't afford it,and she was terminal.
(26:36):
She would just say to them.
Sorry, I'm not going to be ableto do your appointment this
year because I'm dying.
And it was just, it was thecraziest thing.
But she also, it was just somuch strength and she kept her
sense of humor until the veryend.
I can remember when she had daysleft and I went and I got her
mail, I brought it to her andthere was this letter from the
(26:59):
hospital.
I didn't even know, have a cluewhat it was.
She had had a mammogram beforeshe had been diagnosed with
blood cancer and she wentdownhill so quickly that you
know we didn't even think aboutthe results of the mammogram
before she had been diagnosedwith blood cancer.
And she went downhill soquickly that you know we didn't
even think about the results ofthe mammogram.
And she opened it up and shekind of laughed out loud and I'm
like what?
And she said well, good news, Idon't have breast cancer.
Speaker 1 (27:24):
Wow, I you know, I think you do need a mindset like
that, Otherwise you're going todrown.
I mean, if you're still here,you still have purpose right.
So I think a mindset like thatreally does help us through
tough times.
In the example you just gave ofyour mom's mammogram letter
that says she didn't have breastcancer, although she did have
blood cancer, I feel like maybein that moment it just gave her
(27:47):
something to feel joy-filledabout, even if just for that
moment.
And so I think that momentsmatter and they add up, and I
believe sometimes it just givesus the courage for just one more
day.
Speaker 2 (28:00):
Yeah, I mean we laughed so hard when that
happened, you know.
I mean, do you feel guilty forlaughing?
I mean, sometimes we enjoyedthe moment for what it was.
We knew the inevitable wasgoing to happen, but we embraced
the humor and how silly thatreally was.
And that can be hard to do whenyou are facing something so
(28:21):
difficult.
I can remember when I wouldfeed her, because at the end she
wasn't really able to feedherself and we actually would
play airplane and you know thosekinds of things, and it was sad
but it was also humorous attimes at the same time.
So I had to allow it to just bewhat it was.
Speaker 1 (28:43):
I agree, because while she's still here, enjoy
that time that's left, no matterhow little it is, because
there's going to be grief thatcomes once the one you love
passes.
I believe laughter is aninstant vacation and we need
laughter.
My dad and I say about my mom'sdiagnosis that you just have to
laugh sometimes or you'll crytoo much.
(29:05):
It's true.
It's true, yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:07):
Yeah, it's also realizing how sorrow and pain
can deepen our relationship withjoy.
And is that possible when thetwo come together?
And I really do think it ispossible.
Speaker 1 (29:20):
I do too.
I will tell you another example.
I just experienced this againlast week, maybe on a little bit
of a different level.
So our oldest son had his firstoutdoor baseball practice.
He was playing shortstop,looking right into the sun.
First baseman threw the ball.
Our son put his glove up.
He couldn't see the ballbecause he was looking directly
(29:42):
into the sun and boom ball hithim in the face and it fractured
his jaw.
It fractured his jaw so he wentdown and I didn't realize, I
guess, how bad it was going toend up being.
I thought, oh, okay, because hecould still move it.
I thought, oh, it's probably notbroken or anything, but the
next day he was in so much painand it was that of his teeth.
(30:07):
I didn't like the way it lookedaround the gums and so that
prompted the whole let's get youto the doctor.
So when he learned, let me justsay I felt really sad for him
when he got his okay.
So he learned.
His AAU basketball season,which just started, is now over.
(30:29):
You know, our kid is so activewith sports.
Six days a week or nights aweek he is at sports and he's
now told he's got to besidelined for the next four to
six weeks, with the next twoweeks being a liquid-only diet.
And he's 11 years old.
So after five hours of doctorappointments that Friday, all I
(30:52):
could feel was proud of him, soproud of him.
And here's why, after hearingthe news and seeing the x-ray
that he had a fractured jaw, hetook a deep breath.
He just went can I still gocheer my teammates on, mom?
And I thought isn't thatamazing?
(31:14):
He was just told this activekid that he's out for four to
six weeks.
He has to have a liquid diet.
And the first thing that cameto mind was can he go cheer his
teammates on?
To which I said absolutely.
And my heart went from sadnessto joy in an instant, so that
was such a perspective shift forme.
(31:35):
Well then that weekend he wassupposed to have his second AAU
basketball tournament and it wasSaturday morning and I was
downstairs and I heard him askmy husband Dad, could I bring my
jersey so that my replacementhas something to wear?
And I thought isn't thatsomething?
(31:55):
That's what youth sports isabout, that is what being a team
player is all about.
So incredibly proud of him andhonestly, it made me proud of me
, and I get choked up a littlebit when I think about this,
because all of the hard I feellike, all of the hard that my
son has watched me face with mymom in particular, and other,
(32:17):
you know, grief things thatwe've had in our life, helps him
to see how you handle thingswith grace and love and
tenderness, and he's doing it.
He's taking notes, if you will.
He's seen how to handle it.
He's taking notes, if you will.
He's seen how to handle it andalthough it's an injury, it's a
physical pain, not maybe amental pain, if you will.
How well he's handled it hasblown my mind and it makes me
(32:41):
proud of both of us.
So we were all grateful, too,that it wasn't worse, that it
wasn't his nose it's okay thatit wasn't his eye, but the fact
that he sighed, he took it infor a few moments and then he
picked himself right back up,kept going, wanted to cheer his
team on.
He's been to every single gamesince then.
Isn't that amazing, ann?
Speaker 2 (33:03):
You know you learn more when you are having the
down and out times.
You learn about yourself yousure do, and that just shows who
he really is.
It's not, you know.
I always say that I learn morein my failures than my successes
, and this is an example of howyou learn more when you know
(33:25):
it's a really tough situationand you're not out there.
You know winning with the boys,but you just figure it out.
And he oh my gosh, tina, I meanthat just says so much about
who he is as a person that hejust wants to continue to cheer
them on If he can't be out there.
He just wants.
Speaker 1 (33:45):
He still wants to be a part of it.
See, that's what a team playeris all about.
Speaker 2 (34:07):
I love that, and they always pick the quarterback, or
they pick whoever based ontheir leadership abilities,
sometimes not just to.
You know the captain of theteam, and that is somebody who
is a great leader, and it's notbased on performance and he's
just out there wanting everybodyto be their best self.
(34:30):
And that's amazing that he caneverybody to be their best self,
absolutely, and that's amazingthat he can do that at 11 years
old.
He has got a great future insports, not just as a player but
as a leader, absolutely,absolutely.
You also had another thinghappen, tina, where you lost
your baby.
I mean, and I can't think ofanything harder.
(34:53):
Do you think that there is atimeline for grief, for when you
give yourself permission tostart letting the joy in?
Should we feel guilty forletting that joy in after such
an extreme loss or pain?
Speaker 1 (35:09):
So I don't think there's any timeline for grief.
It comes in waves for me, stilljust like the sea.
Sometimes it's calm, sometimesit's raging, sometimes you
barely even notice it and thensometimes it's just something in
between all of that, I dounderstand feeling guilty about
(35:29):
letting joy in, but I can goback to those three weeks after
having our stillborn son and how, just a few months prior to
that experience, I was at a yogatype of retreat, and I don't
believe in happenstance.
So while I was there, I learnedfrom a naturalist it was like a
yoga naturalist little retreatin the town where I live and he
(35:53):
taught us about the rules ofthree and it really stood out to
me Like, of all the things thatnight this is what stood out to
me you can survive only threeminutes without air, three days
without water, three weekswithout food and three months
without hope.
I can still go back to that verymoment where I was sitting at
the edge of my bed every singleday, just lost in my grief and
(36:18):
thoughts and just kind of numb,even at times Just so sad.
And I remember sitting on theedge of my bed it was just about
at the three-week mark of justfeeling just so sad and I
remembered that rule of threeand it right then.
(36:39):
And there shifted myperspective and it was like,
okay, I know that I have to pickmyself back up, because I need
to start letting the joy back in, because I believe that the
longer you stay in that hard,messy place, the harder it is to
dig yourself back out and letthe light back in.
And so from that moment on Isaid, okay, I can designate a
(37:00):
certain amount of time each day,for as long as I need to, to
feel what I need to feel, aslong as I need to, to feel what
I need to feel.
And then I have to move past it.
I can write stuff down, butafter that I've got to let it go
because there's still so muchlife and so much light and I
still have these other beautifulchildren and this life and you
(37:20):
have to push yourself forward.
So it's times like that, it'stimes of grief, when I talked
earlier about.
Sometimes it propels me orpushes me.
This is what I mean.
It's times like that where itbecomes a mental toughness.
You really see what you're madeout of.
You know, when I completed theKalalau Trail, there are just
(37:41):
really poignant times in my lifewhere it has shifted me to do
something better or different,because if I don't do it now,
I'm going to lose.
If you will, I'm going to falloff the edge of the cliff in my
hike, or if I stay in this hard,messy place, I'm going to
become depressed and bedriddenand I'm not going to be able to
(38:01):
take care of my family.
Who is here?
So feel that pain.
Care of my family.
Who is here?
So feel that pain.
But give yourself an allottedtime, say 15 minutes.
Get it all out, cry messywhatever, write it down, scream,
kick, whatever it is that youneed to do, and then you have to
set it aside.
You have to because that joystill needs to come in.
Speaker 2 (38:21):
I do know now that there is room for both emotions.
We have to make room for both.
We just we absolutely have to.
I wish that we had a life wherethere wasn't loss and pain.
But we can be mad at Adam andEve for that one but and my kids
(38:44):
will say, you know, darn Adamand Eve, but this is where we
are.
So I know people who have gonethrough some therapies.
I know someone who is gettingready to start some EMDR therapy
because they are not able tolet the joy in at all.
There is such a blockage thatevery single time this person
(39:05):
feels good happening, they justblock it and create bad.
So they are trying to go backto the trauma and erase that
block with this EMDR and I hopethat it works.
Speaker 1 (39:22):
I so hope as well.
I've heard so much positiveabout EMDR therapy and I hope
this precious person gets thehelp that she deserves from it.
That's another thing.
Changing our perspective to Ideserve to be healthy or I
deserve to feel joy, I think canhelp us reframe our mindset and
(39:43):
allow those things to take root.
Speaker 2 (39:45):
Yeah, I pray that can happen for her.
I pray that people can let joyin during pain.
It's like sitting in silencestaring at the cardinal that
just landed right after somebodypasses away and there's a joy
that is ignited within, nomatter how small.
I know a long time ago I had afriend whose child had passed
(40:10):
away and that child was veryyoung and there was a butterfly
that just kept coming around andyou know, it is those things
that you just have to hang on toand embrace those beautiful
moments in the intense pain.
Somehow, somewhere, the paingets not as intense and the joy
(40:34):
grows, and it truly is makingroom for both in the same spot.
Speaker 1 (40:49):
You know, I love how you've talked about doing things
to remember those that we havelost, to passed on before us.
Every year, on our stillbornbaby's birthday, we do something
different either a butterflyrelease or a balloon release
with notes on it.
We've done singing and makingcake and just singing happy
birthday.
So, you know, it's in a wayit's really heartwarming to
remember and be able tocelebrate in those ways you know
(41:11):
, like with my, when my grandmahad passed the day after my son
was born.
I all I did I remember holdingmy baby by myself at the
hospital was just think of allthe good and fun memories that
we had together and how I justwished that we would have gotten
some more.
I think that it makes loss alittle bit easier when it's
(41:33):
clean, where there's nothingleft that needed to be said, and
so that was a scenario for mewith my grandma that I had no
regrets, I just missed the fun.
And she had such a great senseof humor and I'll never forget
when I said, grandma, what's thesecret to life?
And she said eating chocolate.
And so we always eat chocolate,and I think that's.
(41:54):
My mom got her love ofchocolate from Grandma, and then
so did I.
But I think that life is oftenliving many different emotions
at the same time and I believethe sooner that we embrace that
albeit some mixed emotions areharder than others to feel all
at once, but the sooner we canembrace those differing emotions
(42:15):
, the better off and morehealthy we will be.
Speaker 2 (42:19):
You know you just brought a thought up in me that
I think a lot of times wheregrief might be stronger and it
might be harder to let go iswhen there is not as much
closure.
You know, if there is theclosure and it takes me to my
friend Carrie again, who shelost her mom, and you know there
(42:41):
wasn't a lot of tears, therewere tears.
I'm not saying that therewasn't a lot of tears, there
were tears, I'm not saying that.
But she believed that she haddone everything, said everything
, had the best relationship withher mom when she passed away
and she, you know it comes downto the regrets or the I should
have right.
And you know, when you don'thave those kinds of things and
(43:06):
you don't have a relationshipwhere there's problems or that
you need to have a differentkind of a closure than you had.
You know, I think it might addsome more of those difficulties
to be able to in order to letjoy in.
Speaker 1 (43:24):
That's exactly my point.
Yep, I feel like that's true.
Speaker 2 (43:29):
Yeah, I think that that's really important.
Actually I hadn't even reallythought about that, but you know
, I've gotten better at beingable to let it in and I've
looked at pictures from the pastand I'm this, you know keeper
of memories and I'm a verycompartmentalized person and I
(43:52):
don't like to revisit thingsoften when it happens.
It's kind of done.
Last week I took this collagethat I had made years ago from
my childhood and I just had itin a spot in my house that I
really didn't look at very often, but they were pictures of me
(44:13):
as a child, of course, sittingon my dad, my old house that we
had lived in, pictures of mysister before she had been given
away to the system, before shehad been given away to the
system.
And I took this collage that Ihad made to help me heal years
ago and I put it downstairsfront and center by my dad's
(44:36):
hutch that he had made before hehad passed away and it was kind
of like this empowerment momentfor me.
You know it's not for anybodyelse, I don't even know if
anybody noticed that I put itthere.
That lives here in my housewith me, my family, but it was
just for me and it was like youknow what.
I'm going to take these reallymixed pictures with pain and joy
(45:01):
and I'm going to put it rightthere next to my dad's hutch and
I have just felt so differentlyabout it.
Now it's like I'm claiming it.
I don't know.
That's kind of what it feltlike.
Speaker 1 (45:16):
I do.
I think timing is everything andI have a digital picture frame
of our animals that we haveloved and lost.
And some days it brings megreat, great joy to just sit
there and watch as the picturesgo by and you relive, just for
those moments in time, thosememories that you shared
(45:38):
together, and of course you wantmore of them, and it brings
comfort to remember.
And then there are days whereit's so painful for me to see
them because I want them sobadly to be back here with me
that I have to turn it off, andI think both of those scenarios
are okay.
So I guess what I would say isif you start to feel like it's
too much to have that collage byyour hutch again, it'd be okay
(46:01):
if you took it down and then ifyou put it back up again.
Sometimes you can't help theway you're feeling and you don't
know when something willtrigger you on any given day.
So I hope you'll give yourselfgrace to move it again if you
should need to and if not.
More power to you.
Speaker 2 (46:17):
Well, there's a time to be heartbroken and there is a
time to get up.
There are seasons a time to getup, there are seasons, and no
matter what, it's letting thatspark of joy to eventually, you
know, be ignited again, and Ithink that that is the message
(46:38):
throughout this entire podcast.
Speaker 1 (46:42):
Yeah, I would agree.
I was hoping you know,piggybacking off of that that we
could end with this thoughtjust as winter gives us time and
rest to think about our goalsor the things that we want to
accomplish, I think spring givesus the motivation, the push to
act and reach those goals, gold.
(47:10):
So it is Newton's law ofphysics really An object in
motion stays in motion, and itis a good season to allow some
healthy change.
I read that today somewhere andI summarized it in a nutshell,
but I thought it was so perfectfor what we were doing today.
And then, if I may, I thoughtthat this would be a fitting
quote.
Part of every misery is, so tospeak, the misery's shadow or
(47:31):
reflection, the fact that youdon't merely suffer, but have to
keep on thinking about the factthat you suffer.
I not only live each endlessday in grief, but live each day
thinking about living each dayin grief.
That was a CS Lewis quote and Iread that and I was like, wow,
that's a lot to take in.
Speaker 2 (47:52):
It really is but live each day, thinking about living
each day in grief.
Speaker 1 (47:59):
That's really powerful, isn't it?
It's something that I hadn'tbeen able to put to words myself
, but something that I havefound myself doing, you know,
with my mom.
So when I'm her caretaker on acertain day, or caregiver on a
certain day, that day prior, allI think about I'm consumed with
(48:19):
the grief for tomorrow.
You know that.
I know that I will feel by notknowing what that day will bring
for her and how it will impactme.
So it's, I just thought thatwas really interesting to think
about.
So I guess, if you choose tothink of that quote, my hope is
that you would also choose thething we said prior to Remember.
(48:40):
Winter gave us the rest and thetime to think about goals,
things we want to accomplish,and that could be that you want
to improve your mental health.
You deserve to have good mentalhealth.
So now that it is spring, thatis your push to act on and
hopefully reach those goals.
So remember, the direction youkeep going in is the direction
(49:00):
you're going to go in.
So let that joy let it you know, I just want to let the joy
come in.
Speaker 2 (49:06):
I just want to say something before we end, because
this is just really hit me.
I mean, I didn't realize untiljust now that and I think a lot
of people are here is that youand I both are living in some
sort of a constant joy painsituation.
(49:29):
We both have that right now.
And I think that when you gointo each day, knowing and being
okay, getting accepting,accepting that you're going to
be living this day with griefand also giving yourself
(49:52):
permission to have joy at thesame exact time and I think that
it's chronic, it's like aneveryday choice.
And when you go back to thefirst quote that you said about
an object in motion stays inmotion I think that that is so
critical, Because if we chooseto just kind of say you know, I
(50:16):
can't, I just can't, then wejust we stop.
I mean, it's that choice of justgetting up, accepting that it's
going to be a day with somegrief, giving ourself permission
to feel the grief, feel the joy, but keep moving and allow
ourselves to be in motion andcontinue to stay in motion, and
(50:40):
just one foot in front of theother sometimes.
And that's, you just have tokeep moving, you just have to,
and sometimes it really doeshurt.
But as we've often said in thepodcast, if you just keep moving
, you're just, you're going toget through, Right, and that's
(51:01):
the whole point.
Is if we don't keep moving inthat direction that we need to
go.
You know we're not going to beable to move through.
Speaker 1 (51:10):
It's imperfect progress.
Forward motion is still forwardprogress, and so it can be
little, tiny baby steps, butkeep going.
Speaker 2 (51:21):
Well, thank you, tina .
I mean there was so much goodin this podcast today.
I really appreciate you andbringing a lot of your tough
stories, you know, and a lot ofthings that have proven that
you're really going through somehard times but yet you're also
going through and you're livingthrough the pain and bringing in
(51:43):
the joy at the same time.
Speaker 1 (51:45):
Well, thank you so much and I love how much that
you share and how much of yourheart we get to experience and
you've helped me grow so muchjust by sharing all of the ways
and how.
You still have so much joy inyou and I love to see that.
Speaker 2 (52:01):
Well, I do want to say at the beginning of this
podcast, I didn't have a lot ofjoy.
Do want to say at the beginningof this podcast, I didn't have
a lot of joy, but now I do.
I have a lot more joy becausewe did this.
Do you see how I was in a moodwhen we started this podcast?
Speaker 1 (52:14):
Is it okay that I liked it?
Speaker 2 (52:16):
I will let our listeners know and I, should you
know, put out some bloopersfrom how I was before we finally
started taping this show.
But yeah, you know, it's reallyfunny how, if you just sit and
you calm and you start talkingthrough everything, I'm in a
much different place than I waswhen we started this podcast.
(52:38):
So I'm so glad that we wereable to do this today.
It was perfect timing.
Speaker 1 (52:45):
Me too.
Well, thank you all so much forlistening to Real Talk with
Tina and Anne.
We love that you're listening.
Thank you for supporting us andwe'll see you back next week.
Speaker 2 (52:56):
You know, listening back to that episode, where the
words talk about living with joyand grief were spoken, I paused
, literally stopped the audio,and I said those words out loud
to myself living with joy andgrief.
And it hit me right in the core, because that's what we do,
(53:20):
isn't it?
We live in that space, thattender, messy, beautiful, broken
place, where both joy and grieflive side by side, and I
realized in that moment how longI had let the collision of joy
and grief freeze me in a momentin time, like how long it had
(53:42):
kept me in that moment, and Ihonestly didn't know how to
leave.
But here's the truth Joy andgrief are not opposites, they
are companions.
They show up, often uninvited,at the exact same time A birth
(54:02):
and a death, a celebration and aloss, a laugh in the middle of
mourning, a tear in the middleof a smile.
It's okay to feel both.
In fact, it's human, it's realand it's incredibly brave.
We've shared so many storiestoday of love, loss, resilience
(54:22):
from a fractured jaw, astillborn baby which is so sad,
the cardinal on the windowsillafter a loved one passes, or
holding on to photos of lettinggo of pain, of plugging in and
unplugging digital frames basedon the heart's capacity that day
(54:44):
in order to be able to see them.
And maybe that's the mostimportant reminder of all, you
are allowed to feel joy whilegrieving.
You are allowed to laughthrough your tears, you are
allowed to let light in evenwhen the darkness still lingers.
That's not betrayal, that'shealing and actually it's part
(55:09):
of the grieving.
There's no timeline for this.
There's no perfect roadmap.
There are just moments, tinysacred moments, where you choose
to let something good in againa spark, a memory, a smile, a
deep breath, a conversation.
You know, if you've lostsomeone or something precious
(55:36):
and you're still grieving, letme tell you something you are
not broken because you feel joy.
You're honoring what was lostby continuing to live, because
isn't that, if it's a personthat you've lost, isn't that
what they would have wanted?
Because, like we said, joydoesn't cancel grief and grief
(55:57):
doesn't cancel joy.
They can and they do coexist.
So today, wherever you are inyour journey, let that spark in,
let it ignite something smalland let that small thing become
your hope.
Because, as we've shared here,after the storm there's always a
rainbow and joy comes in themorning.
(56:22):
Thank you for sitting with us inthis space where joy and grief
meet together.
You're not alone here.
I decided to come on and justshare this with you.
Just share some last thoughts.
Thank you so much for listeningand watching and being a part
of Real Talk with Tina and Anne,because you know this is a
(56:43):
mission for us.
This is something that we liketo do to genuinely reach out to
others because of the pain thatwe've had and we've endured, and
we want to be able to use thatpain in order to help other
people, and so we really loveeach and every one of you, and
thank you so much for yoursupport, as we've continually
grown throughout the last twoand a half years, and we're just
(57:09):
going to keep doing this.
So thank you again From RealTalk with Tina and Anne.
We love you.
Remember, there's purpose inthe pain and there's hope in the
journey.
We will see you next time.
Welcome to Real Talk with Tina and Anne.
I am Tina.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
And I am Anne.
Tina, in a recent episode, youtold a story about how your
grandmother died the day afteryour son was born.
You said the words talk aboutliving with joy and grief, and
I'll tell you what it justsparked this thing in me.
Living with joy and grief issomething that I think that we
(00:33):
do all the time.
I thought you know that verymoment in time when joy and
grief meet at the exact sametime.
It's the very thing that keptme stopped in a moment in time
and it stunned me for decades.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
I think I have been stopped in moments of time as
well for those very same reasons.
But I will say what I havelearned over the years of
recognizing that joy and griefhave to coexist not need to,
they have to is that it hasrelieved me of feeling bad about
(01:18):
the good in my life whilegrieving something hard.
So I think it's okay andcompletely normal to feel both
of those emotions, and often,like you said, at the same time,
because life is precious andfragile, beautiful and broken,
and there's so much of the timewhere we're going to feel these
two very polar opposite butsometimes interconnected
(01:40):
feelings.
Speaker 2 (01:42):
You know what I learned very young about the
complexity of emotions and howjoy and grief are not
emotionally exclusive.
You know how we talked aboutlife being cyclical.
Well, it is, but it is also soenmeshed and the two at times
(02:06):
can't be separated, no matterwhat.
What happens when you feel themboth at the exact same time?
Speaker 1 (02:16):
That's a good question and for me I think it
varies.
So let me explain.
Sometimes it numbs me, itvaries, so let me explain.
Sometimes it numbs me,sometimes it pushes me,
sometimes it inspires me.
It's definitely I woulddescribe it as an emotional tug
of war.
So the joy lifts you up, thegrief pulls you down, and
(02:37):
sometimes that combination canlead to a deeper sense of
emotional processing andsometimes it kind of provides a
kind of catharsis, so allowingyou to honor both the beauty of
the moment and the sadness thatcomes with it.
You know, truly, we're not onthis earth for very long.
It might seem like it some days, but no truer statement than
(02:58):
the days are long, but the yearsare short.
And sometimes for me thosefeelings of pain and grief
coexisting just signal I need torest, because sometimes that's
all I can do to kind of givemyself a break from all of it.
I would also say I feel likesometimes it is a reminder of
(03:19):
really probably more often thannot the complexity of human
emotions.
So where one event orexperience can stir multiple
feelings at the same time, italso reflects the richness of
our lives.
So I will give you an examplethat I often feel frequently of
joy and grief meeting together.
(03:41):
So often I see and I'm sure manyof you see a mom and her mom,
so a mom and a grandma outtogether at a store or maybe at
the zoo, and usually grandkidsare in tow.
It makes me smile to see thefamily all together bonding, and
it does bring me joy because Isee them enjoying it so much.
At the same time, inside I wantto cry because I yearn for that
(04:06):
for myself and for my boys.
You know, grandparents are ahuge part of children's lives
and my mom and I have alwaysbeen so close, you know we would
meet at all these places and gotogether.
And so her disease ofAlzheimer's has stolen that from
me and from our boys.
And on my husband's side somevery, very poor decisions by
(04:28):
some of his closest familymembers have forced some strict
boundaries.
So I constantly feel that tugof war of joy for others who
have what I don't, but grief forme and my children who yearn
for that type of connection.
Speaker 2 (04:49):
You know, I think one of the things is that we have
to give ourselves permission tofeel both and I think many times
we feel guilty if we feel anykind of joy, like the birth of
your baby.
At the same time, the family ishaving this horrific loss and
it is giving yourself permissionto feel both and it being okay
(05:12):
to feel some joy when there'salso a loss.
Speaker 1 (05:17):
Yeah, I think allowing yourself permission to
feel happy and sad at the sametime or, you know, grief and joy
at the same time I think thatis absolutely key and it does
take practice, because I think Idon't know even what would make
us feel like we can only feelone thing at once, but it really
is okay and it's very normaland common to feel multiple
(05:40):
different emotions all at thesame time.
So I think that you know, letme I'm an example person.
So let's say that you may havejust gotten the job that you've
been dreaming of, while a goodfriend of yours didn't get
theirs or just lost theirs.
It is completely okay to behappy for yourself and for your
(06:00):
family while also feeling sadand grieving for your friend and
their family about that news.
You know that's just I feel likea good example of how it
coexists, and I'm sure that thefriend who lost their job is
equally happy for you.
Truthfully, if you're goodfriends, that is how it works,
and so I have just noticed thatI think a lot of times people
(06:25):
will assume oh, you know, Idon't want to say anything.
Okay, here you know what?
Let me give you another example, and I'm going to talk about
this a little in depth.
My son has his first majorsports injury We'll get into
that here a little bit later onin this episode and I commented
that my godson played afantastic game.
I heard he hit seventhree-pointers in his game and
(06:48):
my son and my husband, who wentto the game and watched it, were
so excited.
The whole team was so excited,and when I said that to his
parents, they didn't reallyacknowledge that in the text
message, almost like they feltbad, saying I know, wasn't it a
great game?
And it was like it's okay thatmy kid couldn't play.
He was still very much a partof it by watching.
And you can be happy for yourson and also sad for mine, and I
(07:10):
can be happy for your dad formine, Do you?
Speaker 2 (07:13):
know what I mean.
Right, yeah, absolutely yeah.
I mean, I think, one of thehardest things I didn't do for
myself and I didn't do formyself and I didn't give myself
permission to feel the happinessduring really difficult times
in my life, for example, theloss of my dad.
(07:33):
You know I've talked about mydad's death many times on the
podcast because it was legitprobably the worst time in my
entire life and it is when mylife stopped as I knew it and it
was a death of so many thingsand it happened at one of the
best times of my life.
(07:54):
So that was where thecontradiction really happened
for me, where joy and grief hitme at the exact same time.
For me, where joy and grief hitme at the exact same time and I
was at this right beat not toolong before he passed away.
I was one of the top seeds inthis meet and it was my birthday
(08:16):
and I got called in to dancewith the maitre d' and they said
you know, and my ann davis isthere and she is, uh, this top
seat in this for me, and I don'teven know why they made a big
deal out of it, but they did.
It was really kind of a coolthing at this restaurant.
(08:37):
And so I had this amazing nextfew months after that and then
bam, he kissed me Good morningthe next morning and that was it
.
Never saw him again.
So you know, I think many timesjoy is absolutely mixed with
(08:57):
grief.
I even feel it when I'mwatching a show.
Sometimes I immediately startto feel this uneasiness inside
myself.
It's like one of those thingswhen you just know something
really bad is going to happen ona show.
That happens sometimes.
Well, oftentimes, when I'mwatching SVU, you know they're
all having a good time at aparty or they're all laughing
walking down the street orwhatever, and you, just you can
(09:20):
see it.
It's like you know, you knowsomething really bad is going to
happen.
So you know, I wondered foreverwhy I didn't trust happy times.
Well, I think I just proved why.
I mean I lived way too much ofmy life not letting true joy in.
After that happened with my dad.
Speaker 1 (09:41):
And I can see I really can, having gone through
experiences like that and thenresearching because this
question that you asked andmaybe you didn't really ask it,
but just this illustration ledme to want to kind of dive
deeper into what are somereasons why, when someone has a
grief-filled life, it can bereally, really hard to allow joy
(10:01):
to come in, even if we deeplywant and need to experience it.
So here's what.
Here are some of the reasons Icame up with.
You know, grief can shape aperson's worldview and emotional
landscape in a way that makesjoy feel far away and even not
deserved at times.
So one of the things I hadlearned is that grief can push
(10:24):
someone into a constant state ofsurvival mode.
Oh boy, can I relate to that.
And I think many of us canbecoming attached to happiness
(10:47):
again, thinking that if they gettoo close to joy they might
lose it as well.
I've fallen into this trap manytimes too.
You know a fear of love or afear of joy.
Speaker 2 (10:53):
As soon as I have felt success or happiness, it's
almost like I'm waiting forsomething really bad to happen
after yeah.
Speaker 1 (11:06):
One of the other things I came up with is that we
feel unworthy of joy because ofpast experiences.
Speaker 2 (11:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (11:16):
Now here was something else.
So grief often connects peopleto the past, the memories of
what was lost, what could havebeen, and for some that weight
can completely overshadow thepossibility of joy.
I think so many of us haveprobably also experienced this
too as one of the reasons whyit's harder to let the joy in.
But here's the thing Joy andgrief can coexist and they have
(11:40):
to.
Allowing joy in during a grieffilled life requires permission
and it requires vulnerability.
Allowing joy and during agrief-filled life requires
permission and it requiresvulnerability.
And sometimes the process ofopening up to joy is part of the
healing journey and, like allthings, it can really take time.
So I would say just don't rushit, let yourself feel.
As I've said before, feeling ishealing.
(12:01):
You have to feel it to heal it.
Speaker 2 (12:07):
That's, I think you know, and one of the biggest
things they always said about mewas that I was really stoic and
I didn't allow, and I thinkthat I really did feel things.
But I think that I just, youknow, I shut myself off so much
and you're right, I mean it's,if you want to keep the pain out
, you end up keeping it all out,and that's really unfortunate.
It was a long time before Isaid I'm going to allow things
(12:34):
in, and now I mean I let mostthings in.
If you would know, the day thatI had Tina which I kind of
think that you do in a way theway that we started before we
actually went on air, yeah, Imean I have been all about it.
I had every emotion today.
So there you go.
Speaker 1 (12:55):
It would have been a funnier podcast if we were
recording our little chatbeforehand.
But you know, here's what Ithink.
I think that holding on togrief can feel like the last
tether to a person or experiencethey've lost too.
So letting go of that grief tomake room for joy might feel
(13:16):
like you're forgetting orbetraying what's been lost or
who is gone.
I can really relate to this.
With the passing of my beloveddogs it can be just all
consuming.
I lost my best friend, my dogCooper, four years ago and I
can't believe it's been thatlong already and still to this
(13:38):
day it's like I could feel him,I can see him, I remember the
ways that he brought me such joy, or just his little nuances,
and how awful it was.
The hardest goodbye for sure,and for the longest time.
And we still haven't been ableto get another dog, and we lost
our other dog two years ago.
So I still haven't been able toquite move forward with another
(14:02):
dog, because I feel like I'mbetraying Cooper.
I feel like, and Georgie, Ifeel like getting another dog
means I'm saying I love this dognow and not them, even though I
know that I can love them all.
It's just really this one reallystuck out to me because this is
(14:23):
really, what I feel a lot ofmost consistently is that I'm
betraying or that I don't wantto forget and I'll never forget
that feeling of losing my dogCooper.
The very next morning it wasthis overwhelming grief that
woke me up and I had to cling toevery photo that I had of him.
So it was a really interestingfeeling that I've been expecting
(14:43):
because I didn't want to forget, and even when my mom was first
diagnosed I started writingdown and I actually still do
this things that I want toremember you know, fear of pain,
exhaustion from constantlyprocessing pain does seem to
(15:11):
leave a little less space forlighter or easier emotions like
joy to come in.
But sometimes even, I thinksociety or cultural norms even
can make someone feel like theyshould be grieving for a certain
amount of time or should begrieving a certain way, when the
truth is there is no time frameand we do all grieve
differently.
Speaker 2 (15:30):
Yeah, you know you talked about that with your dogs
.
I actually have made collages.
I take, I print a bunch ofpictures of my animals after
they pass and then I make acollage and it just, and then I
also take some of the picturesand I put them in places where
they would lay and things likethat, you know, and it just
(15:52):
makes me feel like you knowthey're there.
I don't know, but my one catwho passed away in just a few
months ago, um, I have hispicture right where he would be
every single time I wouldhomeschool my son, so it just
makes me feel like he's there.
And we got another cat 20 dayslater and it was really hard.
(16:14):
I didn't want to replace Yoshiand Axel will never replace
Yoshi.
In fact, I'll talk to Axelabout Yoshi a lot of times and I
just feel like I just need thatconnection, though I need to
hold an animal.
It's just really important tous.
But you know, tina, how youhave talked about, how you have
(16:37):
had to work really hard on yourrelationship with God and I had
to at times and finding thatrelationship with him again.
And I understand that so muchbecause joy and I feel that I've
had the joy knocked out of meat times.
That joy is related to God andwhen you think of him you think
(17:00):
of how could that have happened?
I mean, how could he have letsomething like this happen?
Speaker 1 (17:06):
sometimes, it's a question that I think about a
lot for various situations, notjust the personal ones, but even
things that go on in the worldin general, and so I was just
counseling about this a coupleweeks ago, and the answer that
I've come to and been told isbecause we live in a broken
(17:28):
world.
It is not how God wanted it.
We live in a broken world.
God will help make somethinggood out of the hard, even if we
have to wait until heaven forthat.
Quote reward.
Speaker 2 (17:40):
I mean, I really believe that it's a hard pill to
swallow, though, too.
So many times I hear people sayyou know, God did this, and it's
always like no, he allowed itto happen.
But I really believe thatthere's going to be something
that comes out of it that can beused for good.
And I know that that's reallyhard, especially in the world
(18:03):
that we live in right now and insome really horrific situations
it's hard to see that andsometimes it takes a really long
time and it takes a really longtime for our hearts to mend and
, like we're saying here, forthe joy to come back in.
But you know, I learned reallyyoung that if I'm going to keep
the pain out, I'm going to keepthe joy out, Like I said earlier
(18:23):
, I'm going to keep the joy out,like I said earlier.
So everything I've beeninvolved with where it's brought
in emotion, I've kept joy atarm's length and sometimes I
think that I keep myself frombeing successful, more
successful in things because ofthat reason alone.
Speaker 1 (18:40):
I think this is the hardest part about these two
emotions.
It's hard but it is mostnecessary.
We still need to allow joy andpain in, or allow light in the
darkness.
We have nothing, so we have tokeep that hope and allow
(19:07):
ourselves to let light in thedarkness.
It's the whole mindset of afterevery storm, there's a rainbow
of hope or joy comes in themorning, joy being the light
after the darkness, and I haveto keep walking toward that.
Speaker 2 (19:18):
I have had to learn that grief does not cancel joy.
Grief does not cancel joy, andthat's been really hard for me
to realize.
So how, what do you feel aboutthat?
Do you think that grief cancancel joy?
Speaker 1 (19:37):
I think it can temporarily stop the joy that
you feel, because I would go outon a limb to say there's
probably more profound griefthat happens in our life than
perhaps profound joy.
Let me explain.
So.
If you have someone that youlove, okay, you know what.
(20:00):
I'll just take my personalsituation.
So my mom diagnosed at age 59with early onset Alzheimer's.
We are now in the year 2025 andshe is now this will be her
sixth year into this dreadeddisease.
That diagnosis shattered me.
I've had a stillborn baby.
(20:20):
I have lost cousins toaddiction Lots of other things
that have happened in my life.
I had been able to handle thosefairly well.
This one crushed me.
So what I'm saying is the griefof this outweighed any joy at
the time, because it was such abig hit, it was such a big loss,
(20:42):
and so I think in a way, Iagree with you Grief shouldn't
cancel joy, but I think at timesit temporarily can, but that's
why it's so important tocontinue to let that light in.
You know, grief is not this oneand done feeling.
(21:03):
It's ongoing, it is layered.
It doesn't just vanish withtime or new experiences.
Whether the experiences aregood or bad, you really still
again have to feel it to heal it.
So I think you can experiencemultiple emotions at once, and
one does not necessarilyovershadow or cancel the other.
Speaker 2 (21:22):
Yeah, back when I was a journalist there was a man
who I knew and actually got tointerview for the newspaper and
he had lost his child.
He was a man of God, he wouldpreach and it got to the point
where he no longer did that.
But it was hard for him to singthe hymns.
(21:43):
He said, you know, it was justit had reached a point where he
just couldn't sing those praisesand anybody could understand
that.
Speaker 1 (21:54):
I think I can relate, yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:56):
I mean there's been absolute times in my life where
and in fact I've never gone backto a physical church but I do
absolutely have had times in mylife where I struggled with
being well.
I mean, I can even have areally rough day and it's like
okay, god, thanks, Thanks a lot,you know, but I know it's not
(22:18):
his fault, but you know, I meanit can happen where, like what
we're talking about here, canjust feel so enmeshed the two
feelings, feel so enmeshed thetwo feelings, and so you don't
want to sing praises to God atthat time when you're having a
really difficult time.
You know, after my dad passedaway, I didn't want to accept my
(22:42):
first award and I won rightafter and they said, you know,
they had the award ceremony andI wasn't up there and they
called my name to go up and Iwould not go.
And you know what I said.
When they said, ann, you needto go up, I said I don't deserve
(23:03):
it.
I don't even know why I saidthat.
Speaker 1 (23:07):
Well, that goes back to what we were talking about
earlier.
It's just what grief can do.
Speaker 2 (23:12):
For some reason I felt I didn't deserve joy.
I couldn't even accept it.
And then after that, I wouldpurposefully lose and I didn't
even realize I was doing that.
And then, all of a sudden, Istarted seeing that I was
purposefully slowing down.
Right before I would hit thatwall, I found myself where I
(23:35):
would taste success, whatever.
That is, whether it begraduating from high school
where my aunt died right beforegraduation and all my family was
at her funeral and not at mygraduation.
And so then, when it came tocollege, I didn't go to my
graduation.
And well, I mean, I did, but Isat in the audience, I guess you
(23:58):
could say, and I watchedeverybody else go across the
stage.
It's kind of like this thingwhere, if you could do this with
me, it's kind of like this oldsaying that in this book that I
used to read when I was justhaving fun, it's called
Tomfoolery, so just say that'sgood or that's bad.
After everything that, I sayOkay, and maybe a lot of people
(24:20):
have already even heard this.
So I was in an airplane.
Oh, that's good, I fell out.
Speaker 1 (24:28):
Oh, that's bad.
Speaker 2 (24:29):
But I had a parachute oh that's good.
I fell out oh that's bad.
Speaker 1 (24:31):
But I had a parachute .
Oh, that's good.
Speaker 2 (24:32):
Well, it didn't open.
That's bad.
Well, there was a haystackright under me.
Speaker 1 (24:39):
That's good.
Speaker 2 (24:41):
No, there was a pitchfork in the haystack.
Oh, that's really bad.
Well, I missed the pitchfork.
Speaker 1 (24:48):
Okay, that's good.
Speaker 2 (24:50):
I also missed the haystack.
Speaker 1 (24:54):
Wow, yeah, I feel like that's something that goes
on in my head about differentthings.
Speaker 2 (25:03):
I mean, isn't that life though?
Speaker 1 (25:05):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, yeah, it's a really
good illustration.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely yeah,it's a really good illustration.
Speaker 2 (25:11):
You know, I think that we need to be mindful on
both emotions and have ritualsfor honoring both at the same
time, if possible.
I know my friend Carrie, herdad passed away and we went to
the beach.
We went to Myrtle Beach and wedrank his favorite pop.
(25:32):
So you know, I watched.
I Love Lucy and Carol Burnettto remember my mom on the day
that she passed away.
So you see what I mean.
There was a person in my lifethat caused me my mom as much
pain as she did teach mestrength, so it can even come
(25:52):
down to something like thatwhere two things can butt up
against each other.
She was so complex and when Ithink of this same person, a
person who gave me so much painin my life, she also, at the
same time, showed me how strongthat a person could be.
And so you know, she was one ofthe strongest people that I
(26:15):
think that I ever met.
I respected her as abusinesswoman.
I respected who she was, evenwhen she was dying.
She was making phone calls topeople canceling their tax
appointments because she woulddo taxes for free for the
elderly who couldn't afford it,and she was terminal.
(26:36):
She would just say to them.
Sorry, I'm not going to be ableto do your appointment this
year because I'm dying.
And it was just, it was thecraziest thing.
But she also, it was just somuch strength and she kept her
sense of humor until the veryend.
I can remember when she had daysleft and I went and I got her
mail, I brought it to her andthere was this letter from the
(26:59):
hospital.
I didn't even know, have a cluewhat it was.
She had had a mammogram beforeshe had been diagnosed with
blood cancer and she wentdownhill so quickly that you
know we didn't even think aboutthe results of the mammogram
before she had been diagnosedwith blood cancer.
And she went downhill soquickly that you know we didn't
even think about the results ofthe mammogram.
And she opened it up and shekind of laughed out loud and I'm
like what?
And she said well, good news, Idon't have breast cancer.
Speaker 1 (27:24):
Wow, I you know, I think you do need a mindset like
that, Otherwise you're going todrown.
I mean, if you're still here,you still have purpose right.
So I think a mindset like thatreally does help us through
tough times.
In the example you just gave ofyour mom's mammogram letter
that says she didn't have breastcancer, although she did have
blood cancer, I feel like maybein that moment it just gave her
(27:47):
something to feel joy-filledabout, even if just for that
moment.
And so I think that momentsmatter and they add up, and I
believe sometimes it just givesus the courage for just one more
day.
Speaker 2 (28:00):
Yeah, I mean we laughed so hard when that
happened, you know.
I mean, do you feel guilty forlaughing?
I mean, sometimes we enjoyedthe moment for what it was.
We knew the inevitable wasgoing to happen, but we embraced
the humor and how silly thatreally was.
And that can be hard to do whenyou are facing something so
(28:21):
difficult.
I can remember when I wouldfeed her, because at the end she
wasn't really able to feedherself and we actually would
play airplane and you know thosekinds of things, and it was sad
but it was also humorous attimes at the same time.
So I had to allow it to just bewhat it was.
Speaker 1 (28:43):
I agree, because while she's still here, enjoy
that time that's left, no matterhow little it is, because
there's going to be grief thatcomes once the one you love
passes.
I believe laughter is aninstant vacation and we need
laughter.
My dad and I say about my mom'sdiagnosis that you just have to
laugh sometimes or you'll crytoo much.
(29:05):
It's true.
It's true, yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:07):
Yeah, it's also realizing how sorrow and pain
can deepen our relationship withjoy.
And is that possible when thetwo come together?
And I really do think it ispossible.
Speaker 1 (29:20):
I do too.
I will tell you another example.
I just experienced this againlast week, maybe on a little bit
of a different level.
So our oldest son had his firstoutdoor baseball practice.
He was playing shortstop,looking right into the sun.
First baseman threw the ball.
Our son put his glove up.
He couldn't see the ballbecause he was looking directly
(29:42):
into the sun and boom ball hithim in the face and it fractured
his jaw.
It fractured his jaw so he wentdown and I didn't realize, I
guess, how bad it was going toend up being.
I thought, oh, okay, because hecould still move it.
I thought, oh, it's probably notbroken or anything, but the
next day he was in so much painand it was that of his teeth.
(30:07):
I didn't like the way it lookedaround the gums and so that
prompted the whole let's get youto the doctor.
So when he learned, let me justsay I felt really sad for him
when he got his okay.
So he learned.
His AAU basketball season,which just started, is now over.
(30:29):
You know, our kid is so activewith sports.
Six days a week or nights aweek he is at sports and he's
now told he's got to besidelined for the next four to
six weeks, with the next twoweeks being a liquid-only diet.
And he's 11 years old.
So after five hours of doctorappointments that Friday, all I
(30:52):
could feel was proud of him, soproud of him.
And here's why, after hearingthe news and seeing the x-ray
that he had a fractured jaw, hetook a deep breath.
He just went can I still gocheer my teammates on, mom?
And I thought isn't thatamazing?
(31:14):
He was just told this activekid that he's out for four to
six weeks.
He has to have a liquid diet.
And the first thing that cameto mind was can he go cheer his
teammates on?
To which I said absolutely.
And my heart went from sadnessto joy in an instant, so that
was such a perspective shift forme.
(31:35):
Well then that weekend he wassupposed to have his second AAU
basketball tournament and it wasSaturday morning and I was
downstairs and I heard him askmy husband Dad, could I bring my
jersey so that my replacementhas something to wear?
And I thought isn't thatsomething?
(31:55):
That's what youth sports isabout, that is what being a team
player is all about.
So incredibly proud of him andhonestly, it made me proud of me
, and I get choked up a littlebit when I think about this,
because all of the hard I feellike, all of the hard that my
son has watched me face with mymom in particular, and other,
(32:17):
you know, grief things thatwe've had in our life, helps him
to see how you handle thingswith grace and love and
tenderness, and he's doing it.
He's taking notes, if you will.
He's seen how to handle it.
He's taking notes, if you will.
He's seen how to handle it andalthough it's an injury, it's a
physical pain, not maybe amental pain, if you will.
How well he's handled it hasblown my mind and it makes me
(32:41):
proud of both of us.
So we were all grateful, too,that it wasn't worse, that it
wasn't his nose it's okay thatit wasn't his eye, but the fact
that he sighed, he took it infor a few moments and then he
picked himself right back up,kept going, wanted to cheer his
team on.
He's been to every single gamesince then.
Isn't that amazing, ann?
Speaker 2 (33:03):
You know you learn more when you are having the
down and out times.
You learn about yourself yousure do, and that just shows who
he really is.
It's not, you know.
I always say that I learn morein my failures than my successes
, and this is an example of howyou learn more when you know
(33:25):
it's a really tough situationand you're not out there.
You know winning with the boys,but you just figure it out.
And he oh my gosh, tina, I meanthat just says so much about
who he is as a person that hejust wants to continue to cheer
them on If he can't be out there.
He just wants.
Speaker 1 (33:45):
He still wants to be a part of it.
See, that's what a team playeris all about.
Speaker 2 (34:07):
I love that, and they always pick the quarterback, or
they pick whoever based ontheir leadership abilities,
sometimes not just to.
You know the captain of theteam, and that is somebody who
is a great leader, and it's notbased on performance and he's
just out there wanting everybodyto be their best self.
(34:30):
And that's amazing that he caneverybody to be their best self,
absolutely, and that's amazingthat he can do that at 11 years
old.
He has got a great future insports, not just as a player but
as a leader, absolutely,absolutely.
You also had another thinghappen, tina, where you lost
your baby.
I mean, and I can't think ofanything harder.
(34:53):
Do you think that there is atimeline for grief, for when you
give yourself permission tostart letting the joy in?
Should we feel guilty forletting that joy in after such
an extreme loss or pain?
Speaker 1 (35:09):
So I don't think there's any timeline for grief.
It comes in waves for me, stilljust like the sea.
Sometimes it's calm, sometimesit's raging, sometimes you
barely even notice it and thensometimes it's just something in
between all of that, I dounderstand feeling guilty about
(35:29):
letting joy in, but I can goback to those three weeks after
having our stillborn son and how, just a few months prior to
that experience, I was at a yogatype of retreat, and I don't
believe in happenstance.
So while I was there, I learnedfrom a naturalist it was like a
yoga naturalist little retreatin the town where I live and he
(35:53):
taught us about the rules ofthree and it really stood out to
me Like, of all the things thatnight this is what stood out to
me you can survive only threeminutes without air, three days
without water, three weekswithout food and three months
without hope.
I can still go back to that verymoment where I was sitting at
the edge of my bed every singleday, just lost in my grief and
(36:18):
thoughts and just kind of numb,even at times Just so sad.
And I remember sitting on theedge of my bed it was just about
at the three-week mark of justfeeling just so sad and I
remembered that rule of threeand it right then.
(36:39):
And there shifted myperspective and it was like,
okay, I know that I have to pickmyself back up, because I need
to start letting the joy back in, because I believe that the
longer you stay in that hard,messy place, the harder it is to
dig yourself back out and letthe light back in.
And so from that moment on Isaid, okay, I can designate a
(37:00):
certain amount of time each day,for as long as I need to, to
feel what I need to feel, aslong as I need to, to feel what
I need to feel.
And then I have to move past it.
I can write stuff down, butafter that I've got to let it go
because there's still so muchlife and so much light and I
still have these other beautifulchildren and this life and you
(37:20):
have to push yourself forward.
So it's times like that, it'stimes of grief, when I talked
earlier about.
Sometimes it propels me orpushes me.
This is what I mean.
It's times like that where itbecomes a mental toughness.
You really see what you're madeout of.
You know, when I completed theKalalau Trail, there are just
(37:41):
really poignant times in my lifewhere it has shifted me to do
something better or different,because if I don't do it now,
I'm going to lose.
If you will, I'm going to falloff the edge of the cliff in my
hike, or if I stay in this hard,messy place, I'm going to
become depressed and bedriddenand I'm not going to be able to
(38:01):
take care of my family.
Who is here?
So feel that pain.
Care of my family.
Who is here?
So feel that pain.
But give yourself an allottedtime, say 15 minutes.
Get it all out, cry messywhatever, write it down, scream,
kick, whatever it is that youneed to do, and then you have to
set it aside.
You have to because that joystill needs to come in.
Speaker 2 (38:21):
I do know now that there is room for both emotions.
We have to make room for both.
We just we absolutely have to.
I wish that we had a life wherethere wasn't loss and pain.
But we can be mad at Adam andEve for that one but and my kids
(38:44):
will say, you know, darn Adamand Eve, but this is where we
are.
So I know people who have gonethrough some therapies.
I know someone who is gettingready to start some EMDR therapy
because they are not able tolet the joy in at all.
There is such a blockage thatevery single time this person
(39:05):
feels good happening, they justblock it and create bad.
So they are trying to go backto the trauma and erase that
block with this EMDR and I hopethat it works.
Speaker 1 (39:22):
I so hope as well.
I've heard so much positiveabout EMDR therapy and I hope
this precious person gets thehelp that she deserves from it.
That's another thing.
Changing our perspective to Ideserve to be healthy or I
deserve to feel joy, I think canhelp us reframe our mindset and
(39:43):
allow those things to take root.
Speaker 2 (39:45):
Yeah, I pray that can happen for her.
I pray that people can let joyin during pain.
It's like sitting in silencestaring at the cardinal that
just landed right after somebodypasses away and there's a joy
that is ignited within, nomatter how small.
I know a long time ago I had afriend whose child had passed
(40:10):
away and that child was veryyoung and there was a butterfly
that just kept coming around andyou know, it is those things
that you just have to hang on toand embrace those beautiful
moments in the intense pain.
Somehow, somewhere, the paingets not as intense and the joy
(40:34):
grows, and it truly is makingroom for both in the same spot.
Speaker 1 (40:49):
You know, I love how you've talked about doing things
to remember those that we havelost, to passed on before us.
Every year, on our stillbornbaby's birthday, we do something
different either a butterflyrelease or a balloon release
with notes on it.
We've done singing and makingcake and just singing happy
birthday.
So, you know, it's in a wayit's really heartwarming to
remember and be able tocelebrate in those ways you know
(41:11):
, like with my, when my grandmahad passed the day after my son
was born.
I all I did I remember holdingmy baby by myself at the
hospital was just think of allthe good and fun memories that
we had together and how I justwished that we would have gotten
some more.
I think that it makes loss alittle bit easier when it's
(41:33):
clean, where there's nothingleft that needed to be said, and
so that was a scenario for mewith my grandma that I had no
regrets, I just missed the fun.
And she had such a great senseof humor and I'll never forget
when I said, grandma, what's thesecret to life?
And she said eating chocolate.
And so we always eat chocolate,and I think that's.
(41:54):
My mom got her love ofchocolate from Grandma, and then
so did I.
But I think that life is oftenliving many different emotions
at the same time and I believethe sooner that we embrace that
albeit some mixed emotions areharder than others to feel all
at once, but the sooner we canembrace those differing emotions
(42:15):
, the better off and morehealthy we will be.
Speaker 2 (42:19):
You know you just brought a thought up in me that
I think a lot of times wheregrief might be stronger and it
might be harder to let go iswhen there is not as much
closure.
You know, if there is theclosure and it takes me to my
friend Carrie again, who shelost her mom, and you know there
(42:41):
wasn't a lot of tears, therewere tears.
I'm not saying that therewasn't a lot of tears, there
were tears, I'm not saying that.
But she believed that she haddone everything, said everything
, had the best relationship withher mom when she passed away
and she, you know it comes downto the regrets or the I should
have right.
And you know, when you don'thave those kinds of things and
(43:06):
you don't have a relationshipwhere there's problems or that
you need to have a differentkind of a closure than you had.
You know, I think it might addsome more of those difficulties
to be able to in order to letjoy in.
Speaker 1 (43:24):
That's exactly my point.
Yep, I feel like that's true.
Speaker 2 (43:29):
Yeah, I think that that's really important.
Actually I hadn't even reallythought about that, but you know
, I've gotten better at beingable to let it in and I've
looked at pictures from the pastand I'm this, you know keeper
of memories and I'm a verycompartmentalized person and I
(43:52):
don't like to revisit thingsoften when it happens.
It's kind of done.
Last week I took this collagethat I had made years ago from
my childhood and I just had itin a spot in my house that I
really didn't look at very often, but they were pictures of me
(44:13):
as a child, of course, sittingon my dad, my old house that we
had lived in, pictures of mysister before she had been given
away to the system, before shehad been given away to the
system.
And I took this collage that Ihad made to help me heal years
ago and I put it downstairsfront and center by my dad's
(44:36):
hutch that he had made before hehad passed away and it was kind
of like this empowerment momentfor me.
You know it's not for anybodyelse, I don't even know if
anybody noticed that I put itthere.
That lives here in my housewith me, my family, but it was
just for me and it was like youknow what.
I'm going to take these reallymixed pictures with pain and joy
(45:01):
and I'm going to put it rightthere next to my dad's hutch and
I have just felt so differentlyabout it.
Now it's like I'm claiming it.
I don't know.
That's kind of what it feltlike.
Speaker 1 (45:16):
I do.
I think timing is everything andI have a digital picture frame
of our animals that we haveloved and lost.
And some days it brings megreat, great joy to just sit
there and watch as the picturesgo by and you relive, just for
those moments in time, thosememories that you shared
(45:38):
together, and of course you wantmore of them, and it brings
comfort to remember.
And then there are days whereit's so painful for me to see
them because I want them sobadly to be back here with me
that I have to turn it off, andI think both of those scenarios
are okay.
So I guess what I would say isif you start to feel like it's
too much to have that collage byyour hutch again, it'd be okay
(46:01):
if you took it down and then ifyou put it back up again.
Sometimes you can't help theway you're feeling and you don't
know when something willtrigger you on any given day.
So I hope you'll give yourselfgrace to move it again if you
should need to and if not.
More power to you.
Speaker 2 (46:17):
Well, there's a time to be heartbroken and there is a
time to get up.
There are seasons a time to getup, there are seasons, and no
matter what, it's letting thatspark of joy to eventually, you
know, be ignited again, and Ithink that that is the message
(46:38):
throughout this entire podcast.
Speaker 1 (46:42):
Yeah, I would agree.
I was hoping you know,piggybacking off of that that we
could end with this thoughtjust as winter gives us time and
rest to think about our goalsor the things that we want to
accomplish, I think spring givesus the motivation, the push to
act and reach those goals, gold.
(47:10):
So it is Newton's law ofphysics really An object in
motion stays in motion, and itis a good season to allow some
healthy change.
I read that today somewhere andI summarized it in a nutshell,
but I thought it was so perfectfor what we were doing today.
And then, if I may, I thoughtthat this would be a fitting
quote.
Part of every misery is, so tospeak, the misery's shadow or
(47:31):
reflection, the fact that youdon't merely suffer, but have to
keep on thinking about the factthat you suffer.
I not only live each endlessday in grief, but live each day
thinking about living each dayin grief.
That was a CS Lewis quote and Iread that and I was like, wow,
that's a lot to take in.
Speaker 2 (47:52):
It really is but live each day, thinking about living
each day in grief.
Speaker 1 (47:59):
That's really powerful, isn't it?
It's something that I hadn'tbeen able to put to words myself
, but something that I havefound myself doing, you know,
with my mom.
So when I'm her caretaker on acertain day, or caregiver on a
certain day, that day prior, allI think about I'm consumed with
(48:19):
the grief for tomorrow.
You know that.
I know that I will feel by notknowing what that day will bring
for her and how it will impactme.
So it's, I just thought thatwas really interesting to think
about.
So I guess, if you choose tothink of that quote, my hope is
that you would also choose thething we said prior to Remember.
(48:40):
Winter gave us the rest and thetime to think about goals,
things we want to accomplish,and that could be that you want
to improve your mental health.
You deserve to have good mentalhealth.
So now that it is spring, thatis your push to act on and
hopefully reach those goals.
So remember, the direction youkeep going in is the direction
(49:00):
you're going to go in.
So let that joy let it you know, I just want to let the joy
come in.
Speaker 2 (49:06):
I just want to say something before we end, because
this is just really hit me.
I mean, I didn't realize untiljust now that and I think a lot
of people are here is that youand I both are living in some
sort of a constant joy painsituation.
(49:29):
We both have that right now.
And I think that when you gointo each day, knowing and being
okay, getting accepting,accepting that you're going to
be living this day with griefand also giving yourself
(49:52):
permission to have joy at thesame exact time and I think that
it's chronic, it's like aneveryday choice.
And when you go back to thefirst quote that you said about
an object in motion stays inmotion I think that that is so
critical, Because if we chooseto just kind of say you know, I
(50:16):
can't, I just can't, then wejust we stop.
I mean, it's that choice of justgetting up, accepting that it's
going to be a day with somegrief, giving ourself permission
to feel the grief, feel the joy, but keep moving and allow
ourselves to be in motion andcontinue to stay in motion, and
(50:40):
just one foot in front of theother sometimes.
And that's, you just have tokeep moving, you just have to,
and sometimes it really doeshurt.
But as we've often said in thepodcast, if you just keep moving
, you're just, you're going toget through, Right, and that's
(51:01):
the whole point.
Is if we don't keep moving inthat direction that we need to
go.
You know we're not going to beable to move through.
Speaker 1 (51:10):
It's imperfect progress.
Forward motion is still forwardprogress, and so it can be
little, tiny baby steps, butkeep going.
Speaker 2 (51:21):
Well, thank you, tina .
I mean there was so much goodin this podcast today.
I really appreciate you andbringing a lot of your tough
stories, you know, and a lot ofthings that have proven that
you're really going through somehard times but yet you're also
going through and you're livingthrough the pain and bringing in
(51:43):
the joy at the same time.
Speaker 1 (51:45):
Well, thank you so much and I love how much that
you share and how much of yourheart we get to experience and
you've helped me grow so muchjust by sharing all of the ways
and how.
You still have so much joy inyou and I love to see that.
Speaker 2 (52:01):
Well, I do want to say at the beginning of this
podcast, I didn't have a lot ofjoy.
Do want to say at the beginningof this podcast, I didn't have
a lot of joy, but now I do.
I have a lot more joy becausewe did this.
Do you see how I was in a moodwhen we started this podcast?
Speaker 1 (52:14):
Is it okay that I liked it?
Speaker 2 (52:16):
I will let our listeners know and I, should you
know, put out some bloopersfrom how I was before we finally
started taping this show.
But yeah, you know, it's reallyfunny how, if you just sit and
you calm and you start talkingthrough everything, I'm in a
much different place than I waswhen we started this podcast.
(52:38):
So I'm so glad that we wereable to do this today.
It was perfect timing.
Speaker 1 (52:45):
Me too.
Well, thank you all so much forlistening to Real Talk with
Tina and Anne.
We love that you're listening.
Thank you for supporting us andwe'll see you back next week.
Speaker 2 (52:56):
You know, listening back to that episode, where the
words talk about living with joyand grief were spoken, I paused
, literally stopped the audio,and I said those words out loud
to myself living with joy andgrief.
And it hit me right in the core, because that's what we do,
(53:20):
isn't it?
We live in that space, thattender, messy, beautiful, broken
place, where both joy and grieflive side by side, and I
realized in that moment how longI had let the collision of joy
and grief freeze me in a momentin time, like how long it had
(53:42):
kept me in that moment, and Ihonestly didn't know how to
leave.
But here's the truth Joy andgrief are not opposites, they
are companions.
They show up, often uninvited,at the exact same time A birth
(54:02):
and a death, a celebration and aloss, a laugh in the middle of
mourning, a tear in the middleof a smile.
It's okay to feel both.
In fact, it's human, it's realand it's incredibly brave.
We've shared so many storiestoday of love, loss, resilience
(54:22):
from a fractured jaw, astillborn baby which is so sad,
the cardinal on the windowsillafter a loved one passes, or
holding on to photos of lettinggo of pain, of plugging in and
unplugging digital frames basedon the heart's capacity that day
(54:44):
in order to be able to see them.
And maybe that's the mostimportant reminder of all, you
are allowed to feel joy whilegrieving.
You are allowed to laughthrough your tears, you are
allowed to let light in evenwhen the darkness still lingers.
That's not betrayal, that'shealing and actually it's part
(55:09):
of the grieving.
There's no timeline for this.
There's no perfect roadmap.
There are just moments, tinysacred moments, where you choose
to let something good in againa spark, a memory, a smile, a
deep breath, a conversation.
You know, if you've lostsomeone or something precious
(55:36):
and you're still grieving, letme tell you something you are
not broken because you feel joy.
You're honoring what was lostby continuing to live, because
isn't that, if it's a personthat you've lost, isn't that
what they would have wanted?
Because, like we said, joydoesn't cancel grief and grief
(55:57):
doesn't cancel joy.
They can and they do coexist.
So today, wherever you are inyour journey, let that spark in,
let it ignite something smalland let that small thing become
your hope.
Because, as we've shared here,after the storm there's always a
rainbow and joy comes in themorning.
(56:22):
Thank you for sitting with us inthis space where joy and grief
meet together.
You're not alone here.
I decided to come on and justshare this with you.
Just share some last thoughts.
Thank you so much for listeningand watching and being a part
of Real Talk with Tina and Anne,because you know this is a
(56:43):
mission for us.
This is something that we liketo do to genuinely reach out to
others because of the pain thatwe've had and we've endured, and
we want to be able to use thatpain in order to help other
people, and so we really loveeach and every one of you, and
thank you so much for yoursupport, as we've continually
grown throughout the last twoand a half years, and we're just
(57:09):
going to keep doing this.
So thank you again From RealTalk with Tina and Anne.
We love you.
Remember, there's purpose inthe pain and there's hope in the
journey.
We will see you next time.
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