MentalHappy: Tamar Blue’s Mission to Make Mental Health Available to All

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Tamar Blue, founder and CEO of Mental Happy, shares how she transformed her personal struggles with anxiety into a groundbreaking digital platform for accessible mental health support. Her HIPAA-compliant service provides expert-led support groups where people of all backgrounds can find community healing without financial barriers or stigma.

• Turning personal pain into purpose by creating the mental health community she needed
• Breaking cultural barriers where mental health wasn't discussed or treated
• Building on her high school peer support program that received White House recognition
• Creating accessible support groups for life transitions beyond traditional therapy topics
• Addressing healthcare gaps for those with geographical, financial, or scheduling barriers
• Providing free mental health resources and tools that don't require constant technology use
• Prioritizing privacy with mobile-only chat features and no session recordings
• Reducing healthcare system burden by preventing mental health crises
• Changing negative self-talk through journaling and positive affirmations
• Sharing personal wellness practices including nature walks, hydration, and boundary-setting

Visit mentalhappy.com to join a support group, access free resources, or become a group leader in creating spaces for healing, community and hope.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:08):
Welcome to Real Talk with Tina and Anne.
I am Anne.
Today we're sitting down with awoman who's reimagining mental
health from the inside outTamara Blue, the founder and CEO
of Mental Happy, aHIPAA-compliant digital platform
making expert-led supportgroups safe, affordable and
stigma-free for all.

(00:28):
She turned panic into purposeand a whisper for help into a
movement that's helped thousandsfeel seen, heard and healed.
Her work with Mental Happy hasappeared in major publications
such as Nasdaq, techcrunch andSilicon Valley Business Journal.
She earned her MBA aftergraduating from Florida State
University with a dual degree insociology and economics.

(00:51):
As a first-generationHaitian-American, she's battled
anxiety and panic attacks andsilence because in her world,
mental health wasn't discussed,let alone treated.
So what did she do?
She built what she needed acommunity of support, compassion
and healing.
From starting a peer group inhigh school that earned White
House recognition, by the way,to Mar didn't wait for

(01:14):
permission.
She created SPACE.
Mental Happy is a healthplatform that offers people of
all backgrounds a safe, securespace to address their emotional
health and daily challenges.
Through free mental healthresources and expert-led support
groups, they ensure everyonecan access the emotional support
that they deserve, free fromfinancial or physical barriers.

(01:37):
So grab your journal.
Maybe a cup of teacaffeine-free, if you're
channeling Tamar, and let's getreal.
First of all, I want to thankyou so much for being on the
show.

Speaker 2 (01:48):
I appreciate it and thank you so much to the
listeners for having me.
I'm happy to be here with youguys.

Speaker 1 (01:53):
You know, I've been on your website, I watched some
of your videos and I actuallyjoined and I think anxiety is
one of society's biggestproblems and the stigma of
mental health is a real thingand people look away and others
feel ashamed and others feel soalone Also our kids.
Today this is probably anepidemic and you started your

(02:17):
first peer support program inhigh school Safety Ambassadors
and it, like we said, wasrecognized by the White House.
Could we please talk about yourstory and what brought you to
even wanting to start MentalHappy?

Speaker 2 (02:29):
Yeah, absolutely, thank you.
I've probably always been apretty empathetic person, so I
feel things really deeply.
And yeah, just in somesocieties and some cultural
backgrounds, it's just you don'treally have the space and
oftentimes you don't have thelanguage right.
Like you don't really have thespace and oftentimes you don't
have the language right, like Idon't think.
In my language we even had aterm for, like, mental health.

(02:52):
That was a positive one.
Anyway, a lot of it is like youknow you're crazy or it's a
weakness, or you know it's just.
It's just really kind ofshunned away.
The first peer-led supportgroup that I started in high
school was really empowering andwe had an overwhelming amount
of people putting in you knowanonymous requests and people

(03:12):
kind of coming in and gettinghelp.
So it made me realize like okay, we're, I'm not the only person
who's ever experienced this andwe were doing something really
positive.
Fast forward to all of my lifeexperiences, you know graduating
college, working a career andreally still encountering people

(03:33):
.
I worked in staffing andthey're technically your
employee as the staffer, butthey work out at other
corporations, kind of like tempservices, if anybody's ever
heard that term before.
So I was managing maybe like200 something people working in
the field and what wasdefinitely common was just like
people had life stuff.

(03:53):
You know people that come intowork because this life thing
happened to them and I justfound myself like listening to
people's hardships more thananything.
And when I left that career, Ireally wanted to leverage
something using technology,something that I was passionate
about, and I remembered that Ireally love this work in support

(04:16):
groups, even like through thechurches I was a part of.
There were group networks and Iwas a volunteer in the church
like groups like forhomelessness or for women with,
like who've been victims ofdomestic violence.
So I had been doing this typeof like group work with people
for a long time.
I realized the challenge withgroups and even when I was

(04:40):
looking for, you know, some typeof support group, is that
they're really hard to find Ifyou're not part of a church or a
church doesn't find you, you'renot in a school or university
system where you know supportgroups are often pretty common,
or maybe you didn't go throughacute care in a hospital.
Hospitals oftentimes havesupport groups, but they're run
by volunteers and you have tolike, call or email to get.

(05:03):
It was just like all thisbrokenness in support groups.
It was like really overlooked,other than what it's wildly
popularly known for, which isAlcoholics Anonymous, which has
been around for 80 plussomething years, has high level
of, you know, effectiveness.
People recognize the brand andhow they've changed people's
lives.

(05:23):
But I really thought about howsupport groups can really meet
that gap, for all of the lifeevents that people may
experience and all of the lifetransitions that people may
experience, whether it'srecovery, or maybe you are an
adult and you're now aging rightOn our platform there a golden,

(05:43):
I think it's called like goldenaging or aging gracefully,
something like that um that I'veseen on our platform, like you
know people who you know, 50 andolder, or people coming from
military and back to civilianlife, or who've um are
caregivers and they're caringfor someone who has, like a
long-term disability.
So it's just it made me realizelike there should be a support

(06:05):
group for everyone, foreverything, not just anxiety or
depression or, and that spacejust really didn't exist in a
way that was really affordable,accessible and had really good
representation on the differenttypes of people.
It served right, whether that'san LGBTQ community, whether

(06:27):
that's, you know, a single momcommunity or whatever it looks
like, you can find a groupleader that has either been
there, has the clinicalknowledge or looks like you.

Speaker 1 (06:38):
I mean this is absolutely genius.
And what I love, too, is thatyou've taken your pain and
you've turned it into purposeand you have done something.
And this is a movement, becausemental health can be
debilitating and it is probablyone of our most ignored, you

(06:59):
know, and that is so sad.
People really do look the otherway a lot of times.
Instead of just reach out ahelping hand to somebody who
really needs it, therapist andtherapists are doing really
great work or you know it's.

Speaker 2 (07:25):
It's expensive is oftentimes what we hear from
people, because you have to comeup with 150, 200 something
dollars for 50 minutes and it'softentimes really hard for
people to maybe squeeze it intheir schedule, right, because
it's like it's Monday, it's likegoing to the dentist, which is
so hard, so it's just it becomeslike very difficult to kind of

(07:46):
fit it in your life.
But what oftentimes people don'trealize with any type of health
care whether it's like physicalor mental care, mental health
care, something that's like notan emergency, right, like you
have to be rushed to thehospital is that people who live
in rural areas and people whohave children also have like
barriers to health.

(08:07):
When we think about health carebarriers, we sometimes think of
it's just financial, but itcould be you live in a rural
area and there's no bus line toget back to the city, you don't
have a car to get back to like ametropolitan area.
Or let's say you are acaregiver of, you know, maybe,
your aging parents and you alsohave children.

(08:27):
You're like in those middle,you're what's considered those
middle year adults, right, andyou have to get your parents
some help, right, but you alsoout to get help for your mental
health treatment, because youhave these, you know, social

(08:48):
barriers, these responsibilitiesthat are not just necessarily
financial.

Speaker 1 (08:54):
I mean you were speaking my language because you
know I adopted five kids.
I have two older, I have two,three younger, and my three
youngers are autistic.
Many, many needs, and it isvery hard to and I'm the last
person that I think of, right, Imean, that's what we do, that

(09:16):
we're the last people that wethink of, and it's really easy
in the evening to get on, watchyour videos or do some things
like that, or wake up in themorning and that's the first
thing that I do.

Speaker 2 (09:29):
Our philosophy at Mental Happy is that, yes,
one-on-one care is absolutelyimportant and groups are a good
way to either be a supplement tothat, like a complement to that
, or if you do have all of theselimitations maybe cost, maybe
distance, you know things likethat then groups are a good
option because it's great to goto the doctor and you know,

(09:53):
learn a lot about you, know yourdiagnosis and get treatment and
get help.
Or go to a behavioral outpatientprogram and get help.
But the community aspect of itis absolutely aids in the
healing and that's what thesupport groups in Mental Happy
can provide where you can chatwith people who are living the

(10:13):
real life experience that you'reexperiencing.
But it's also led by some typeof professional expert.
So there is some trust that youcan have in the information
that you're receiving and justlike the real time motivation,
encouragement and support thatyou get from that community is
just like really unbeatable.

(10:34):
And I'd say, like 99% of thesupport groups on the platform
are virtual.
Like you said, if you got a lotgoing on during the day, maybe
you have some time during yourlunch, you know, you can
transparently see what timesyour group is meeting for a
virtual session, Maybe, if youmissed it, you can still get
involved in like, chat andcommunication on the platform

(10:54):
through the mobile apps, so it'slike all that helpfulness, like
right in your pocket.

Speaker 1 (11:01):
I also love that you can log on anonymously.
Love that you can log onanonymously I mean some of us
and I know that me going in andsitting, you know, in a group
sometimes isn't really where Iam in my space, you know, I'm
just not there, but I could login to a group on a computer and
that just, you know that reallyfrees that up for me, because

(11:23):
I've had people oh, you have somuch going on.
I'll tell you what if and I'malso autistic, so it really
makes a big difference.
You've created a space forpeople, neurodivergent, that
would never normally walk into abuilding yeah, absolutely.
And you've made it accessibleto everyone.
What exactly is everything thatyou offer on the platform?

(11:44):
Because there's a lot more thanjust the group, yeah,
absolutely so.

Speaker 2 (11:50):
You touched on something that's pretty near and
dear to my heart.
When we started out, there wasjust there was a lot of
information on the internet atthe time kind of starting to
really talk about likede-stigmatizing mental health,
opening up, you know, going, youknow encouraging people to go
to therapy.
But we still kind of with ourcommunity that we were growing

(12:13):
really on Facebook at the timeand we just we felt like there
needed to just be tangible, realthings that people can kind of
get their hands on and I reallylove like practicing gratitude
and journaling and stuff likethat.
And we started creating thesetools.
We call them on our website umair free downloadables and it's

(12:38):
just different five to 10 minutetools that people can digest
quickly and it's a quick,downloadable form that you can
take with you.
You can share it, teach it toyour kids, have really good
prompts for encountering lifethings.
Maybe you're having a tough timeexpressing your boundaries.
We talk about what that lookslike.

(12:59):
Give you examples on what tosay different audience that you
may have to say.
So just different life things,maybe shifting little negative,
intrusive thoughts throughoutthe day to replacing them with
positive things.
Positive self-talk is like abig theme of a lot of those
downloadables and people lovethem and we realize like, while
people have the information andthey hear a lot of stuff on

(13:23):
social media, it's amazing thatpeople actually want to do the
work and do like the smallpractices.
But we do it in a way thatdoesn't overstimulate people.
So it's not like you need toplay a game on our app or you
know you need to like constantlybe on the phone.
It's just it's something thatyou can download and do in your
own time and it's and it givesyou this really cool one sheet

(13:45):
that you can print out, you cancarry with you, you can read it
and it's not something thattakes up too much of your day.
The other part, other than theactual support groups, is that,
as I mentioned, we don't want tooverstimulate people, so we
don't connect with any othersocial media platforms because

(14:05):
we just don't want any noise ordistraction.
People are very keen aboutprivacy and security, so the
chat feature is only availableon mobile so that we disable any
screen shotting or anythinglike that.
We monitor screenshots forpeople to screenshot what
anybody said or messaging.
We don't allow recordings ofthe virtual video sessions.

(14:29):
So when your group needsvirtually.
It's not recorded for anyreason, for any purposes, not
even for training purposesinternally, because we just we
really want to be sensitive withyour data and the things that
you're openly sharing.
It has a lot to offer on theplatform and, as I mentioned
before, with the places that youwould normally find support

(14:51):
groups maybe in a church, maybein a hospital.
It's just those places arefantastic and it's great that
they offer them.
But what I found in myexperience in building support
groups and even joining themmyself is that, let say, you you
do have you had some acute careevent at a hospital and they do
have support groups, or maybelike grief right, and sometimes

(15:12):
it's run by a volunteer.
That volunteer isn't alwaysavailable because you know
they're, it's their free timeand you have to email this
person or you have to call thisnumber to the hospital and they
have to, you know, forward yourinformation to the volunteer and
the volunteer will reach out.
Well, if you think about, like,the tough time that you're
going through for anything likemaybe you were just diagnosed

(15:32):
with something, maybe you'regoing through grief, you know,
maybe you're just likestruggling so to have to jump
through all these hoops to getto a group is just one of the
things that we wanted toeliminate on the platform.
So it's just a quick you sign up, you tell us a little bit about
what you're experiencingnothing sensitive, nothing

(15:56):
judgmental on the information.
We just want to know what typesof groups you're looking for so
that we can suggest some, andthen you can search through all
the groups that we haveavailable on the platform to
really find your match.
And then, as you saw, anne, onthe platform, it gives you full
description on what the group isabout.
Some groups also tell you whatthey're not about, so that
there's no confusion.
And then if the group has anytriggers, right, like if there
are any sensitive words thatmaybe you're not ready to

(16:17):
experience, then the group onthe front page will give you a
trigger warning so that youdon't join and you're jarred.
And you see it on the back end.
If there's any price for thegroup, if the group is free, if
it's accepting donations, ifthere's a monthly fee, if
there's a one-time fee, all ofthose things you know up front
so that it's not this weirdcreepy thing that you're going

(16:39):
into Because, again, you aregoing into, you want to feel
like it's a safe space, and theonly way we can make it feel
like a safe space for people isto be fully transparent, with
the information up front.

Speaker 1 (16:50):
You have thought of everything.
It sounds like I mean you'vetried and like you said
community helps me come up withideas.

Speaker 2 (16:58):
We've gotten a lot of great support and ideas from
what people want.

Speaker 1 (17:02):
Okay, well, you're listening and that is really
important, and you did talkabout the specific
evidence-based group therapythat you have, and you've talked
about grief and stress andtrauma and some of those other
things.
Do you have like a list of someof the other ones that you
provide?

Speaker 2 (17:21):
Yeah, I even seen like an adult an adult like
adoption support group.
So I mean I've seen like a anadult an adult like adoption
support group.
So I I mean I've seen likeeverything on the platform like
literally yesterday I waslooking at a couple of new
psychedelic, like psychedelicsupport groups that have come up
.
So I've seen really everythingon the platform really surprised
.
And we even have likefaith-based groups on the

(17:42):
platform that focus on likerecovery and stuff like that.
And it's not just liketherapists that use the platform
, it's like therapists and theydo non-clinical work on the
platform.
So I just want to make thatvery clear.
They just provide likepsychoeducational support groups
and we've seen, I've even seenlike doctors teaching things in
the support groups.

(18:03):
Survivors is a big communitylike people who've like lived
experience and have beenadvocating for the space for a
long time.
But because all of that contentand what the groups are about
are led from their perspectiveis why we have such a wide range
of different support groupsthat people can find.
If, for some chance, that youcome onto the platform and

(18:25):
something niche that you'relooking for is not available,
people can put in a suggestionand then we collect those
suggestions and then whensomeone comes onto the platform,
maybe they want to lead a groupand they're not entirely sure,
we'll say, okay, well, 20 peopleyou know had expressed they're
interested in this particulartopic, if you have knowledge on
it, and then that's how I like,a new group will spawn up.

(18:47):
I wish I could say, like I'mthe one who like thought of like
all these groups, or my team's,the one like thought of all
these different categories.
We thought of like 30, I think,main categories and then, like
once we launched, like peoplejust kind of blew that 30 up to
just thousands of differentthings that we would have never
thought of, that people wouldneed.

Speaker 1 (19:09):
Yeah, it sounds like as soon as somebody thinks of
something else, you make itavailable, we make it available,
yeah, yeah, I know that youhave been looking for health
professionals and things likethat Anybody that is willing to
come on and be a professional.
Am I right?

Speaker 2 (19:41):
99 or an employee of ours.
You just use our platform torun your community, whether it's
.
We have nonprofits on theplatform.
We even have like really smallbehavioral health hospitals that
run virtual support andoutpatient things.
We have, as I mentioned,survivors that have been doing
the work for a long time, justpeople who have maybe been
running support groups indifferent places that have been
hard for them to manage.
Or the biggest one that we hearoftentimes is that they're

(20:03):
running support groups like kindof like in their local town,
local city, but it's verydifficult to really fill up
those groups just because, again, they're like in person, people
would have to drive in.
But with this platform is thatit allows them to, you know, 10x
grow their group more so thanthey would on their own.
Because, again, people arecoming specifically to look for

(20:25):
support groups on our platformand because we don't have those
same barriers and limitation onlike driving somewhere and
there's really no like, let'ssay, someone is a licensed
therapist, there's really nolike legal regulations that they
couldn't run apsychoeducational group.
And you know, you're based inConnecticut and you have

(20:47):
participants in your group fromall over the United States.

Speaker 1 (20:50):
You also talk about your mission to serve everyone
and I think that that's amazing,because there are so many gaps
in our health care and,regardless of income, race or
background, you are so many gapsin our health care and,
regardless of income, race orbackground, you are closing
those gaps.
Can you talk more about that?

Speaker 2 (21:07):
Yeah, that was really hard in the beginning because
I'm obviously a person of colorand there was just a lot of
niche at the time in mentalhealth that we noticed.
It was just like rich whitewoman syndrome, where it's just,
it was like these mental healththat we noticed.
It was just like a rich whitewoman syndrome, where it's just
it was like these mental healthgroups for rich white women.
And then there was, you know,mental health groups for just

(21:29):
LGBTQ people and it was justlike all these small, just
people of color.
And there wasn't, and therewere all these like small
platforms that just catered to aparticular type of person, type
of demographic lifestyle, and Ijust I got a lot of pushback in
the beginning to be very niche,so maybe just focus on people

(21:50):
of color, maybe just focus onwomen.
And I just thought, like theproblem is and I knew this from
just personal experience is thatwhen someone is looking for a
support group, it is verydifficult to find those niche
spaces.
There really isn't one inclusiveplatform.
That's like, you know, adirectory, Wikipedia, you know,

(22:12):
like it's its own Google search,it's like its own platform to
find all of these things Right,Like if you were looking to rent
a home, you would go torentalscom.
I don't know if that's a realwebsite, but you know you'd go
to like.
You know, if you were lookingto buy a car, there's carscom
for, like, any car you want tobuy really anywhere.

(22:33):
And there just wasn't this allinclusive space like that for
support groups and those nicheplaces had very, very slim
pickings in terms ofavailability.
Maybe you don't fit the nicheor the demographic or you can't
meet the times, so there justreally aren't a lot of options

(22:56):
on times.
So I really pushed hard likereally really hard on just
really getting finding investorsand people and customers and
users.
That really kind of saw thisvision and this alignment of
like yeah, there should be aplatform for everyone, for every
type of support group, andpeople should be able to find it

(23:18):
pretty easily in one app.

Speaker 1 (23:20):
There really are a lot of people that are not
getting the help that they need,and health care is one of the
biggest problems.
It is so difficult for peopleto even get the mental health
help that they need through thehealth care that we provide in
this country.
But you talk aboutself-activated care and
preventative care and self-carepractice.
So if you could talk more aboutthis, because this is really

(23:43):
intriguing to me.

Speaker 2 (23:44):
Yeah.
So self-management andself-activated care is really
important and people don't.
Sometimes I think we'veromanticized it in our society
as like self-care is doing yourhair, it's getting a massage,
it's you know, it's getting yournails done, or um, those things
romanticize it in a way thatalso excludes like half the

(24:08):
population, because men maybenot necessarily want to like get
their nails.
You know what I mean.

Speaker 1 (24:12):
So what does self-care?

Speaker 2 (24:14):
look like for men.
You know, um, and that'ssomething we were also very keen
about on the platform isplatform is making sure that men
had like a lot of spaces.
So I had to do a lot ofrecruiting to go out and find
leaders that were also men, tobring men's groups to the
platform.
But for the self-managementpiece of it, people don't

(24:36):
realize how much it actuallydeclogs our overall healthcare
system.
Because what happens is and Ivolunteered in a hospital for a
little while in high school, soI and then also a little bit
clerical, doing admin, clericalwork, like in college and what I
realized working in the ER isthat people weren't just coming

(24:58):
into the ER because they broke aleg or they got into a car
accident or they're bleeding orthey passed out Like.
Some people were rushing intothe ER because they were
suffering from a broken heart,like literally.
I remember this man coming inand he was like in crisis
because his wife was divorcinghim and he thought he was having

(25:20):
a heart attack, but it wasreally just emotional heartache
that he was experiencing.
So and then people who areexperiencing like psychosis.
We had a family member who hadan issue with like just like a
mental breakdown, like it wasjust a full psychotic breakdown,
and he was rushed into thehospital and the hospital was

(25:42):
like, well, we don't handle that.
And it was just like, well,where do you take?
And it took a while for them tofind somewhere some behavioral
health center that would agreeto take the person.
So what we don't realize isthat mental health issues that
don't have a streamline on whereto go clog up the healthcare

(26:02):
system.
So you know, when we're talkingabout like fixing the gaps in
healthcare, we need to talkabout like unburdening the
people who are doing theimportant work in the hospitals.
You know, in acute care inmedical centers, because they're
also kind of also having totake on.
If there's no behavioral healthcenter with, you know, within a

(26:22):
short mile radius around them,they're also taking on mental
health issues.
And you know, if someone is,let's say, they do have an acute
care issue but they also have amental health issue on top of
that, it's just very difficultfor, like a nurse or a doctor to
encounter that because that'snot what they went to school for
and it adds extra to theirworkload.

(26:44):
And what people don't realizeis hospital readmissions are
very high, so people go to thehospital for an acute care issue
.
Right, let's say they justfound out they were diagnosed
stage something that's likedevastating, that changes their
world.
They leave the hospital, they,you know, leave all those tests

(27:05):
and sometimes they come rightback into the hospital because
of now they're not taking careof themselves, now they have
depression, now they haveanxiety, and the hospital's like
, well, we just can talk to youabout your medications, your
treatment plan and stuff likethat and it's just like, well,
what do you do for all the otherthings that the person is

(27:25):
experiencing?
So these things where people areable to have some tools to
manage their care, theiremotional care, from home,
virtually where, yes, you weremaybe diagnosed with something
chronic, you know, now somethinglife-changing happened to you,
but then now you have thissupplemental support group to

(27:46):
help you navigate all of thesocial, environmental and
life-changing things that youknow, your amazing, amazing
doctor, oncologist, whatever ina hospital system is just not
some.
They do great work sometimesand they do try to help, but
they oftentimes don't have thecapacity to because of just all
the backlog of patients thatthey have to see and they have

(28:08):
to keep re-seeing becausepatients are coming in for the
wrong things that you know.
The hospital is just not builtfor.

Speaker 1 (28:14):
Yeah, I personally know a child who has been from
acute center to acute center andit's really hard to get them
into a regular residentialfacility, which is where they're
going to be going.

Speaker 2 (28:30):
But the beds are full across the country for kids and
I mean, I don't know what'shappening in our country, but I
can tell you something ishappening, that the mental
health facilities for kids isfull it makes up such a huge
population on our platform interms of groups for caregivers

(29:07):
is that, yes, people are gettingthe treatment, but then the
language and support in theirown family systems is very
difficult and the strain andstress on the people who now
have to help provide that care,maintain that care, support it.
So all these things, all theselike self-activated,
self-management type tools wherepeople can have the support,
build resilience, focus on theircoping, is really important and

(29:29):
I just can't stress enough howmuch burden support group.
Like every professional I'vetalked to every type of doctor
under the sun, every type oftherapist under the sun it's
like you know, you're not takinganything away from the work
that we're doing, you'reactually taking a piece of it
that we just, we were just notbuilt to manage and people
should have something else oncethey leave that doctor's office.

(29:53):
I was talking to a doctor thathe focuses on, you know,
diabetic care and he was likeit's not just me giving them a
shot, a pill, talking to themabout their treatment resume, on
managing and reducing theirdiabetes, but it's also like the
nuanced things.
It's just like finding thatcommunity that is going to hold
you accountable to your diet,that's going to be able to talk

(30:16):
to you on the tough days, isgoing to be able to share really
fun recipes with each other.
He was like it's all thoselittle things that I can't
provide in the you know,sometimes 20 minute doctor's
appointments, like he's.
Like I know these things, Ijust don't have time to really
teach them.
So he took it upon himself tostart a support group and he

(30:37):
runs his diabetic support groupon our platform for his patient
and that's just doing an extrathing on top of everything that
he has to do as running apractice, being a medical
professional and things of thatnature.
So we need more people who wantto be kind of like on the front
lines of support groups,because support group leaders

(30:57):
are very much, you know,frontline workers.

Speaker 1 (31:00):
They can just contact the website and say this is
what I do, this is my knowledge,whatever turn in everything,
yeah, so on mentalhappycom.

Speaker 2 (31:10):
They just click, read the website and see what the
things are FAQ and all that andthen, if you feel like it fits
you and what you want to do,just click get started.
There's a small form where youcan fill out what your group
description will be about.
You can always edit it andchange it later if you want to
change your group dynamic, butwe review it.
We review all groups that comeon to the platform because we

(31:32):
want to ensure you're a realperson and we want to also
ensure nowadays, I mean in aworld of bots and everything
like.
We just want to make sure wekeep the platform safe and we
also review what you're going tobe bringing to the platform.
It really has to be in thecompounds of like physical
health, mental health, wellness.
It could even be like I thinkwe've even stretched it to like

(31:55):
spirituality, meditation andcolleges, universities.
So as long as it's like withinthe realm of like overarching
wellness, and then once yourgroup is approved, then you know
our team will show you how touse the platform and then you
can start running your grouppretty immediately.

Speaker 1 (32:12):
When you first log in .
You know and I went on thevideo you talk about 11 mental
health practices.
I don't even call your videosself-help, because I think that
that's too cliche.
I don't even call your videosself-help because I think that
that's too cliche.
I don't know.
I mean, there's just so many ofthem out there and I think that
it's at a different levelbecause you're so personal and
they are you and they aretransparent and when pain and

(32:33):
passion meet, you have purpose,and I feel that that's what you
have done.
And it's also about connection,because connection is where
people grow and heal, and you'vecreated that space.
Connection allows people to bewho they are, with the people
they feel comfortable with,without judgment.
Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 2 (32:53):
Can you talk more about that?
Absolutely, I've just seen frompersonal experience.
So I did mention early on westarted Mental Happy, the
overarching Mental Happycommunity on a social media
platform and you would thinklike, with something like mental
health and people kind oftalking about their problems and

(33:15):
things that they're going, youwould think like no one would
bully someone and pick onsomeone who's like going through
a tough time, like kickingsomeone when they're down.
But we've seen firsthand likeon social media sites people
would make like negativecomments.
They'd make off-color comments,unbelievable, and it was just a
lot of and it's not just that,it's just people were also being
mean to themselves.

(33:36):
You know like the negativeself-venting.
Yeah, so the judgment is notjust what we pride ourselves at
Mental Happy is that thejudgment we want people to
realize it's not just comingfrom the outside.
We want you to also learn tonot judge yourself and that's
really important.
So, yes, in our journey we werelike we want to not only
prevent bullying from otherpeople, but we also want to help

(33:59):
people understand how to bekind and less judgmental to
themselves.
That's the whole reason whysome of the most of like the
free resources talk so muchabout like positive self-talk
and really changing that innernarrative, because if you can
change your inner world, yourinner narrative, you can really
change your life.
I heard I follow someone that Ireally love Her name is Esther

(34:27):
Hicks and I was reading in oneof her books.
She was just saying, like youknow, we own things that we
don't necessarily need to ownemotionally, like in our mind,
and it was something likechanging your words from you
know, from I have XYZ disease toI'm healing from XYZ disease,
and that change from I havemeaning I'm going to be with

(34:48):
this thing forever versus thisis just a journey I'm passing
through, right, I'm healingthrough it.
It makes a big difference onyour mood and your mood impacts
how obviously how you feeloverall, mentally and physically
.
And when you feel good mentally, your body, chemically and on a
physiological level, reallystarts to shift as well.

Speaker 1 (35:09):
I don't think people realize how much our mental
affects our physical being.
So I mean, you're reallyproviding a space that can help
our entire being.

Speaker 2 (35:21):
Yeah, yeah, and we do that through what the groups.
What I really hope the groupsare achieving and what we try to
coach the group facilitatorsthrough, is, like you're giving
people education about like lifeand nuanced things that maybe
no one's ever really taken thetime to teach them, that maybe
no one's ever really taken thetime to teach them, and it's

(35:43):
certainly nothing we learn inschool.
Right, you know a lot aboutUlysses S Grant, but you don't
really know a lot about youractual mind and how that impacts
the physicalness of your body,how it impacts your cells, your
organs, and how the body storestrauma and things like that
where you need that.

(36:03):
I mean it's great to knowhistory, but I mean what's more
important than knowing thyself?

Speaker 1 (36:08):
You just made me think of something.
I mean that is just soimportant.
I mean, why don't we introducethis in the younger years?

Speaker 2 (36:17):
Yeah, we're working on it.
I would love that.
It's like my biggest dream isto really, you know, really
pilot this in the schools andmaybe even have like a group for
, like guardians and parents,and then have groups for the
younger, like K through 12 aswell.

Speaker 1 (36:34):
I think part of it and I don't know, but I think a
lot of it can be that mentalhealth and I don't know, but I
think a lot of it can be thatmental health, anything mental
health, therapy it's looked atas a weakness or a stigma.
I mean you touched on that alittle bit, you know with your
family and how they looked at it.
I mean, how did you breakthrough that?

Speaker 2 (36:56):
I think it was just like going away to college.
I really encountered differentpeople and different ideas,
different cultures, differentlanguages.
So I think just the experienceof like moving away really
opened my world up.
But when?
But my specific experience whenI was having like these weird

(37:17):
panic attacks which felt likekind of out of nowhere for no
reason, having like these weirdpanic attacks which felt like
kind of out of nowhere for noreason In my 20s I was able to.
I saw one doctor and it wasjust a little bit of a weird
interaction between him and I.
And then I saw someone else hedefinitely didn't know why and
he was like I could prescribeyou something, but I think you

(37:37):
should see a colleague of mine.
He wasn't eager to give memedication for it, right?
So he was like hey, you shouldgo see this person.
And that person he sent me to,I believe, if I'm not mistaken.
I can never remember if she waslike a dietician or a
nutritionalist, um, but she waslike a doctor, maybe like doctor
dietician, and she talked abouthow food, you know, triggers

(37:59):
things in the mind and the mindtriggers like the body, and she
really got me to.
I mean, you know, just a20-year-old junkie diet like
fast food and very littlevegetables and berries and
antibiotics and stuff I mean notantibiotics, antioxidants which
are very helpful for easinganxiety.
Okay, yeah, so she just taughtme a lot about, like, how all

(38:22):
those holistic things are tiedtogether and she taught me how,
you know, the mind really doesimpact the body and she was like
one of the first people thattaught me about, like you know,
stored trauma and sometimespanic attacks could be trauma
that's like stored in your bodyfrom when you were a child,
things that happen to you thatyou may not even really remember
but your body remembers it, andit's like bringing and things

(38:45):
trigger it.
Like you know, having too muchsugar, having not enough
adequate water, like thesethings trigger these traumas to
like kind of hit you, and for methey were like night terrors.
It would just happen to me inthe middle of the night and she
was just like it could besomething.
So she talked a lot about likemoving your body and yoga and
stuff like that, and I took alot of that education that I

(39:08):
learned from her and I told theteam.
I was like I told my co-founderat the time.
I was like I think I want towrite this like 11, 12, like
mental happy guide thing, likecause, those were like the 10
principles that she had.
I think maybe she had sharedlike seven or eight principles I
sense, added a few to them, butthey were just like core
principles and I'm like no oneever taught me these things and

(39:30):
I'm pretty sure that no one evertaught anybody else.
And someone said something likeoh, you should turn it into a
book and sell it, and I was justlike now I just want to give it
away.
So the Mental Happy Guide isfree on our website and it just
has like these you know, I can'teven remember now 11, 12 things
that no one really taught youabout just living life and how

(39:52):
your life could be better if youjust did a few small changes.

Speaker 1 (39:56):
See that could be a class.
It could be a class for kids.
I really do think so.
Right, and you know you sharedin a blog post because I did
some deep digging here with youand you did talk about the
severity of your anxiety andyour therapist asked you to
start journaling and you werereally surprised and you did
touch on this a little bit.
But how you talked to yourselfand your negative thoughts in

(40:20):
general.
Your mantra back then was Iwill never be able to do this
and this is not going to happenfor me.
You know those types of thingsand you know we just normally I
interview with by myself or Tinaand I talk together.
We do banter back and forth orwhatever, but I did one recently

(40:40):
with just myself.
I interviewed myself.
I guess I really touch onself-talk.
You know what we think canbecome action and if it's
negative, you know it comes outas a negative about manifesting
and the positive thoughtsturning into action.
How important is self-talk,what you did talk about that in

(41:09):
introspection and working onself, and you went from talking
completely negative to who you?
are now.

Speaker 2 (41:12):
I mean really I mean, yeah, it's, it really works.
I mean I can, literally I havephysical evidence of the things
that, because when I firststarted doing the journaling, it
was really like negative.
You can pinpoint all thenegative things with all the
negative, like all the negativewords, with all the negative
things that were happening in mylife.
And then, once I started toshift the words even if the

(41:35):
physical world hadn't caught upto the words yet once I just
started shifting the story andjust writing a better story for
myself, then the things in mylife started to get better and
they started to get better andthey started to get better.
And it was almost like Istarted, like predicting my own
future and my own life, sothings that I wanted and things
that I wanted to see happen, andeven like with Mental Happy,

(41:56):
you know, I told you guys in thebeginning where, you know, I
had this vision and this ideafor it to really be this
inclusive place.
I didn't just want to build aplatform that was just for, you
know, people of color or youknow, women of color or you know
, just like a niche thing.
I really wanted it to beinclusive.
I remember like writing thatdown and then to see it come
into fruition.

(42:17):
You know today and you know,and things like where I wanted
to be with my business, thingsthat I wanted to see my family
go, it's like the more I gave itmy positive energy.
It's just like it started, eventimes where I was ill or sick
or recovering from something,and I would just work on
changing that story.
And it's just like the physicalworld also changed as well.

(42:40):
So it's really important andI've heard somebody say it this
way that it's the best way I canexplain it.
They were actually talkingabout like believing in God and
they were just like it's almostno bad side in believing in God,
right, it's just like, evenwith like journaling and writing
positives, it's just nodownside to it.
Like even if you don't quitebelieve it in the beginning,

(43:05):
just doing it is no, there's nodownside to it.
Like you're only saying goodthings and you know maybe the
good things won't happen rightaway, maybe they'll take a while
and maybe the good things willblow your mind and happen better
than you wrote it down, youknow.
So that's like the best way Ican explain like shifting your

(43:25):
mindset.
It is very, very difficult toget started in the beginning.
I 100% living proof of that.
Your writings in the beginningwill definitely be like
scrambled eggs, but it's almostlike you kind of need to get all
that bad stuff out and thenkind of start washing that away
and then transitioning to thegood stuff.

Speaker 1 (43:47):
It's interesting that taking your thoughts and
putting it on paper allowed youto be able to see how you were
thinking and you didn't reallythink.
You didn't notice that beforeyou actually were looking at it.

Speaker 2 (43:58):
Right, yeah, and you just kind of, you know, for me I
just kind of became disgustedwith it.
You know, it's just like Ididn't want to.
I didn't want to continue to bethere.

Speaker 1 (44:06):
Yeah, and that's why you know, gratitude is so
important, and I think sometimeswe do have to force it and
maybe really be thankful forwhatever the smallest thing is.
I'm not really sure, but ifwe're there in that negative
mindset and everything around usappears as if it's not where we
want it, then we might have tostart journaling in a way where

(44:28):
we can start manifestingsomething bigger and better.

Speaker 2 (44:32):
Right and I on on like very hard days where it
feels like there's like nothingto be grateful for because the
main things you want you don'thave, right, I always tell
people, like just think about,well, two things like one, when
you don't have anything to begrateful for, just think about
oxygen, right, like literally,if oxygen was not on this planet

(44:52):
, like whatever you're worriedabout, whatever you're nervous
about, whatever you're sad thatyou don't have, or you don't
look like, you don't feel likeyou know it just wouldn't even
be a thing if there was nooxygen.
It just exists so that you canexist.
And then, in terms of likeeasing anxiety, I like to tell
people because anxiety issometimes you're thinking way
too much in the future.
And I like to tell people like,well, if you think about how

(45:15):
the sun is in perfect proximityto the earth, right Like that in
itself is a major thing.
That's just worked out in yourfavor.
The sun is in perfect proximityto earth, like you, literally
would not live.
Nothing would live.
Nothing you cared about wouldeven exist, nothing you're
worried about would exist.
You wouldn't even have theopportunity to achieve, to say
about a job that you want,something that you're wanting to

(45:51):
heal from.
You know, a lover, a mate thatyou're hoping for, like you know
, like everything else thatyou're hoping and wanting, feels
very small compared to this bigevent that has already worked
out in your favor, for free.

Speaker 1 (46:04):
You do talk about verbalizing gave you power.
We are in more control than werealize.
Than we realize, yeah, yeah,and we think that people are
taking power from us all thetime.
I think.

Speaker 2 (46:16):
And it could feel that way.
It really could.
I mean, these are weird times,so definitely could feel that
way.

Speaker 1 (46:22):
Yeah, right, yeah, I mean that's a whole nother
episode, I think.
But you know, we do, we giveand we give and we end up with
nothing sometimes, and so it'sreally important that we've
talked about in here that isself-prioritize and to
self-advocate, because who elseis going to do it?

(46:45):
I mean we have to.

Speaker 2 (46:47):
Yeah, you definitely have to pull yourself up, for
sure, and there's people thatreally what I love about mental
happy is there's people thatreally want to see you win In a
place where it feels like no onewants to see you win, no one
wants to see you get up.

Speaker 1 (47:04):
You know, I feel like we're creating that space for
people.
I would like to close with somefun questions about Tamar.
You've eliminated caffeine, youlive a holistic lifestyle, and
can you walk us through yourday-to-day practices that you've
adopted?

Speaker 2 (47:20):
Yeah, so I try to walk on like Mondays and
Wednesdays.
So I live on the West Coast andit's really hard in Northern
California to chase sunshine andwarmth.
So I've been making a habit togo out in nature on the weekends
and that's been amazing becausewe just have so much wildlife

(47:41):
here and it hasn't been smokyand burning outside, which is
nice.
But I also work out a few timesa week.
I make drinking water a bigpriority.
I learned that very early onthat dehydration really triggers
anxiety.
It can also trigger depression.
Yeah, I try to eat as cleanlyas I can, but I had five guys

(48:04):
burgers the other day on mytreat day.
You got it.
Life is balanced right.
Yeah, and I gave up alcoholmany, many, many years ago.
No judgment to anyone who stillpartakes.
I might have some matcha hereand there like very low caffeine
.
I'm a big like go outside innature person, like.

(48:25):
I really love long walks bymyself and dancing and singing.
Like you know, I was singing atthe top of my lungs, dropping
my kid off.

Speaker 1 (48:34):
That's awesome.

Speaker 2 (48:35):
Dropping my kid off to camp.

Speaker 1 (48:37):
Yeah, I can embarrass my kids sometimes.

Speaker 2 (48:40):
I know the ceiling really loud.
Looking in the car.

Speaker 1 (48:42):
Yeah, so we talked about personal affirmations,
mantras.
You know all that stuff.
Can you share some of your ownmantras that help keep get you
through?

Speaker 2 (48:53):
your day.
Yeah, the best one, my favoriteone, is everything is working
out for me.
Okay, it's simple as that.
And even on my bad days, I mean, I can write that down like 20
times and then I'll start tofeel better.
It's just everything is workingout for me.
And if you don't believe it,you can kind of like look back

(49:14):
at your life, at things that youwere worried about and whether
they worked out or not.
Nine times out of 10, they did.

Speaker 1 (49:19):
Mine is trust the process.
I love that and I cannot tellyou how many times that goes
through my head, and it alsoworks for me as being like a
thought stopper, because when mybrain wants to go in the
negative right away and startgoing towards the worst case
scenario, I'll just stop and saytrust the process and that

(49:43):
instantly really does make mestart trusting where I am right
now.
Right, and then allow it tojust be and sit for a minute
before I start taking it downthe wrong path, because you know
that's what our brains want todo.
Sometimes you say choppingvegetables is meditative.
To you.
It is what is your go-tocomfort meal when you're nervous

(50:08):
Besides five guys, I know.

Speaker 2 (50:13):
I love making eggplant lasagna.
Oh yum I love eggplant, yeah,and I love any type of like
legume stew, so just like a lotof kale and spinach, and I
always put eggplant in it and itjust it takes a long time to
cook down up a carrots in it andyeah, it's a traditional dish

(50:34):
from my culture and I mean I'veI've probably Americanized it to
the max but but yeah, it's just, it's really mad.
It just takes a long time tochop the things down and, you
know, cook everything down.
So it's just, by the timeyou're done, two hours later,
you just you don't even rememberwhat you were worried about

(50:55):
before.

Speaker 1 (50:56):
Okay, yeah, cooking has really helped me.
Those types of things helpbring me back to center and help
me not.
I don't remember any of myproblems while I'm doing those
things.
I think that that's reallyimportant, you know, is that we
need to always find somethingthat brings us back to center so
we're not stuck in thatnegative and we can remind

(51:17):
ourselves why we're going thepath that we are.

Speaker 2 (51:20):
Yeah, and life kind of just gives you so much
momentum, so fast, like it'sjust like it's work, it's you
know, it's emails, it's I needto call this person back, I need
to this from this grocery store.
It's like all the mental load oflife Just it just feels like so
much fast momentum and it justit feels like we need to know
the details of like howeverything is going to work out,

(51:41):
because we need to control it.
I had a really great businessmentor once upon a time who he
used to love saying like don'tget caught in the details.
Whenever he would share like anidea with us or some new
initiative, and you knoweverybody, all the employees,
are like well, what about thisand what about that, and that's
not going to work.
And you know we sometimes talkourselves out of good things,

(52:04):
right, or we overwhelm ourselveswith like why this is not going
to work out.
And he used to always say likedon't get caught in the details.
And sometimes when I have anidea about something or you know
I want to change something orachieve something, I will tell
myself, like okay, this is youridea right now.
You don't need to get caught inthe details of like how and

(52:27):
when, and you know your job isjust the what.
And I've already figured out thewhat you know.
And my other favorite one thatI learned from a good friend of
mine.
Her name is Patty.
She used to love saying whensomeone would hit you with like
something urgent or it feelsurgent and you have to like
immediately respond and or maybesomeone upset you, she was just

(52:47):
like you got to do this thingwhere you just practice like
just letting it sit in your hairfor a little while, you know.
And she would also say likedon't take that call, you know,
just cause she was just sayinglike sometimes when you just
don't respond, life has a way ofjust the thing goes away Like
it just sometimes kind ofhandles itself with just like a
little bit of time, a little bitof breathing room, just letting
it sit in your hair, just don'ttake that call too fast, you

(53:10):
know, and just like letting itsimmer for a little bit.
Cause in staffing every.
This is where we met as friends.
But in staffing everything's sourgent and employee you know
called out and you know this andthat, and she's like everybody
that calls you, it's like anurgent call Right, and you're
getting 50 urgent calls at atime.
So she just really learned tolike not let other people's

(53:31):
panic be your panic.
Oh my gosh, I love that.
I think I'm going to write thatdown.

Speaker 1 (53:36):
Yeah, oh my gosh, yeah, that is so good, right.

Speaker 2 (53:40):
So it just it gave me this like control of self Right
, like I'm now not taking onother people, and you can do
that in a lot of differentscenarios, like if someone's, if
your partner's, upset and angry, and then sometimes you find
yourself angry and kind of likeelevating your voice too,
because you're just absorbingtheir energy and it's just
sometimes like not letting otherpeople's things just become

(54:02):
your emotion, so that that'svery, very helpful.

Speaker 1 (54:05):
Yes, I have learned that being quiet and allow the
other person to just go issometimes the best thing to do
and allow time to resolve it andto walk, and it normally does
resolve itself.
And balance is key and you'vetouched on that a little bit and

(54:34):
putting up those boundaries.
Boundaries are huge to ourmental health, protecting our
own peace and I'm sure, as theCEO and you know this mental
health space, that you've had todo that a lot and you know this
mental health space, thatyou've had to do that a lot.

Speaker 2 (54:51):
Yeah, yeah, I've gotten it really just in the
last maybe two years, just likewith family and trying to
balance family and work.
I've just had to really getgood.
And the way I think aboutboundaries.
Boundaries are for us.
Sometimes we think ofboundaries as, oh, this is just
a barrier I'm putting up soother people don't bother me.
But I think we think about itsometimes in the wrong not

(55:13):
necessarily the wrong way, butnot in the best perspective, in
that boundaries are for you tohonor your beliefs and your
guiding systems and things thatyou want to see or you don't
want to see, because to say thatyou're giving someone a
boundary, they would have toknow what your belief systems
are and oftentimes people don'tknow your belief system right.

(55:35):
So how could you give someoneelse a boundary For me?
I had to honor my own boundaryand just, you know, my belief
system is just really trying tobe the master of my time.
Where I realized is like I wascrossing my own boundary and
like really just being too nicewith my time and helping people
and as much as it like pained mewhen people would reach out and
they'd, you know, want helpwith something, advice with

(55:57):
something.
I just had to really justbrutally be honest like, hey,
I'm at the top of my bandwidthon what I can give people of my
time and I realized that itwasn't other people violating
that boundary, it was just menot honoring that belief that I
had that, hey, I'm just verylimited on time now because of X
, y, z thing.

Speaker 1 (56:17):
One last question, and then we'll close.
What advice would you give tosomebody who I mean this is
obviously pre-mental happy theyhaven't pushed that button yet,
they haven't gone on yet andthey are completely full of
anxiety and they're overwhelmedand they don't even know what to
do with that first step?

(56:37):
What?
Just talk to them.

Speaker 2 (56:39):
I would say to try to get outdoors.
If you can't, if it's theweather's not vibing with you
outdoors, just try to turn off,like high sensory things, like
turn off your phone, turn offany light.
I used to find like a corner,like in a closet, and I used to
just like sit.

(57:00):
Now I sit and I put my hand onmy heart and I just, I just do
nothing Like I don't, and I tellmyself like I don't have any
expectations of myself.
And whenever a thought wouldlike come in, I would imagine,
like I would physically imaginemyself kind of like pushing,
gently, pushing that thoughtaway.
And I think, if you can justbreathe and sit for a second,
the idea or the thought or themotivation or the impulse to do

(57:23):
the next thing that's best foryou will come up.

Speaker 1 (57:25):
That's really good advice, I think just sometimes
just one step and then the nextwill reveal itself and not even
looking past that, being okaywith where you are.
I mean, that's just for right,now, for right now yeah.

Speaker 2 (57:38):
Yeah, you don't have to see the whole staircase.

Speaker 1 (57:41):
Well, tamar, you are an inspiration, thank you.
You didn't just want to getmentally healthy.
You created an entire space foreveryone to come with you, and
I think that that's amazing,that you took people on this
journey.
You realized a need and youacted on it.
You left what you knew and youcreated something because it was

(58:01):
needed, and you are to becommended for what you are
accomplishing.
People all over do not haveaccess to mental health.
They just don't.
They are sitting at home aloneor they are even in a room full
of people feeling hopeless, andsuicide is up, anxiety is up,
hurting people are everywhere,judgment of others is up, trust

(58:22):
is down, division is up and it'sgetting worse all the time.
So thank you, tamar, thank you,thank you for what you are
doing, and I'm going to screamfrom the rooftops and tell
everyone that I know aboutMental Happy and go to
mentalhappycom and, like I said,I am doing it myself and I'm
going to join some of thesegroups and you know I don't take

(58:46):
this lightly.
I really do believe in thisspace and thank you for giving
us that space for people like meand for everyone out there that
needs help.
Tamar Blue didn't just start acompany.
She started a movement, amovement for every person who's
ever felt unseen, unheard orthey had to carry their own

(59:06):
struggles alone.
So here's a reminder Mentalhealth is real.
It's a real health.
Support is strength and healingis not only possible, it's
necessary.
So visit mentalhappycom, join agroup, start your journey, be
part of something that couldchange your life or someone
else's.
Tamar, thank you for creatingthe kind of world we all want to

(59:27):
live in, one that makes spacefor healing humanity and hope.
And to all of you, listening,thank you for showing up for
yourselves today.
This has been Real Talk withTina and Anne and, as we always
say, there is purpose in thepain and there is hope in the
journey.
Thank you for joining and wewill see you next time.