The Escape: Victoria Ellen's Courageous fight against abuse and systematic failures. Part 2

Victoria Ellen's extraordinary journey from terror to triumph is the heart of this episode. Eight months pregnant and seeking refuge from an abusive marriage, Victoria's tale is a powerful testament to courage and resilience. Supported by her father, she reflects on the fear of the unknown and the importance of having a support system during such critical times. Her story unfolds with raw honesty, highlighting the bravery required to escape and the inadequacies of legal protections like civil orders in truly safeguarding victims.

We also shine a spotlight on the systemic failures within child abuse investigations through the experiences of a determined mother and her children. Despite valid claims, the justice system's inertia and manipulation tactics employed by an abusive father left them vulnerable. Our conversation uncovers the frustrating gaps within the justice process that leave families feeling powerless, while also highlighting the relentless pursuit of justice by those who refuse to be silenced. The narrative serves as a call for urgent reform, underscoring the critical need for a more effective and empathetic response from authorities.

As Victoria and other voices share their paths to healing, the episode becomes a beacon of hope, demonstrating the transformative power of resilience. We explore the profound impact of personal stories, from overcoming skin cancer to finding love and grace in unexpected places. Symbols like the number 17 and the sighting of a bald eagle become emblems of victory and hope, illustrating the spirit of empowerment in the face of adversity. These stories collectively emphasize that sharing and supporting one another can inspire change and foster strength in those who listen.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:08):
Welcome back to Real Talk with Tina and Anne.
I am Anne.
This is part two of ourinterview with the extraordinary
Victoria Ellen.
In part one, victoriacourageously shared her story of
escaping a severely abusiveenvironment and the relentless
effort it took to getauthorities to take action.
Use of environment and therelentless effort it took to get
authorities to take action.
Her journey is nothing short ofheroic, as she not only fought

(00:30):
for her own safety, but also forjustice on a larger scale, one
that even caught the attentionof the federal government.
Victoria's story is a powerfultestament to the strength and
resilience of survivors.
She's become a voice forchildren and adults who have
been victims of abuse and forthose wronged by manipulative
con artists.
Her bravery is inspiring andher advocacy is a reminder that
no one has to face these battlesalone.

(00:52):
If you or someone you know isin a domestic abuse situation,
please know help is available,make a plan, gather important
documents and reach out totrusted individuals or local
shelters for support.
Abuse often escalates whensomeone tries to leave, so it's
critical to have a safe place togo.
Victoria's book Painting in theRain a true story of trickery

(01:14):
and triumph is a compelling readyou won't want to put down.
We left off last time with thebeginning of her story.
Now let's pick up, as sheshares how she was able to
escape her then-husband andstart a new chapter in her life.
Here's part two of VictoriaEllen's powerful journey.
So how did you finally leavehim?

Speaker 2 (01:35):
So interesting.
We got into another altercationand I just happened to be far
enough away from him this oneday when we were fighting that I
was able to get out the frontdoor.
Our son was there, who wasliterally like just shy of a

(01:57):
three-year-old.
So I felt like, okay, he's twoand a half Like if I bolt out
the front door, daryl's notgoing to come after me because
he's not going to leave our sonin the house by himself.
You know what I mean.
So that didn't work becausewhen he realized that I had
taken off out the front door, hetook off out the front door

(02:18):
after me and left our son in thehouse.
And it's a November day broaddaylight in suburban, you know
neighborhood in Ohio, and here Igo running down the street and
I'm eight months pregnant andhere comes him, you know, right
running behind me and I'm justlike running for my life.

(02:40):
I was literally like in my headI'm thinking I am never going
back, I am never going back, Iam never going back.
Whatever I need to do to getRyland, I will do it, but I'm
never going back to a life thatI have to live with him you know
, right Now your dad gotinvolved, didn't?
he pick you up.
He did.
He picked me up at the policestation.
I called him, so when?

Speaker 1 (03:01):
he said the words everything is going to be all
right, I mean I felt the releasefor you.
I mean it must have been likeyou probably.
I mean there's your dad justreassuring you.
That must have felt wonderful.

Speaker 2 (03:17):
It was.
It was great and you know, Iwas still a little bit of
disbelief because they did notknow what I had been enduring
and it was like, I think in hismind it was like, yeah,
everything's going to be allright because now she's left him
and everything's going to befine.
But they had no idea what I hadlived through for the past

(03:39):
three years.

Speaker 1 (03:40):
He knew that something was wrong.
I mean, he went to that retreatand he was, I think, fearful
for you, whether he really knewor not, and he had a peace at
that retreat because you know hewas reassured that you were
going to be okay.

Speaker 2 (04:00):
Yes, absolutely.
And that was really interestingtoo, because someone there
actually said to him when he wasaway, just trying to like clear
his head you know everything'sgoing to be fine with your
daughter and oh, by the way,she's going to come home and
she's going to have more thanone child, and it was like how
would you even know that?

Speaker 1 (04:20):
And you don't even know what the situation looks
like you don't even know whatthe situation looks like.

Speaker 2 (04:23):
Being able to have somebody just speak into your
life and be like, hey, this iswhat I'm seeing, you know, and I
think everything's going to beokay for you.
I mean definitely amazing how,behind the scenes like there was
always a plan and it was goingto be fulfilled I just took like
this detour no-transcript.

(05:06):
Scary, and I know a lot ofother women experience the same
exact thing.

Speaker 1 (05:10):
Exactly.
That's why I loved it so much,because I thought of all the
women in that shelter, all thewomen that I've encountered that
had to leave such a scarysituation and had to jump and
had no idea where they weregoing to land.
Some of the most scariestplaces is the unknown.

Speaker 2 (05:26):
Yes, it is, because at least it's like where you're
at, at least you know what toexpect.
But you have to get to a pointwhere you kind of understand,
like it can't be worse thanwhere I'm at right now, like,

(05:54):
okay, yeah, my mind, I wastrying to rationalize it and I
thought, well, my God, like Idon't have a place to live, but
I've got friends, yeah, I don'thave an option anymore.
Like the option to stay hasbeen removed off the table.
You're going to have to jump.
You got to figure it out nowbecause his life is worth it.
And this baby, you know herlife is worth it.

Speaker 1 (06:11):
Right.
You filed a CPO against him, acivil protection order.
Did you feel safe with thatorder?

Speaker 2 (06:18):
Oh, absolutely not.
It's interesting.
You know you take all of thesteps that you know to take in
order to keep yourself safe, butnever I never felt safe from
him Ever.

Speaker 1 (06:32):
I feel safe now, but not at that time and in your
book you paint this picture ofyou're pregnant.
You need to go back and getyour things and the garage door.

Speaker 2 (06:51):
Are you kidding me?
I couldn't.
It was like this war with thegarage door.
It was so funny.
Once I finally got a hold ofthat garage door and I was able
to push it up, we found like anold headboard that was like in
the garage and I pushed thegarage door up.
My friend procks the garagedoor open.

(07:12):
Daryl's inside the house andhe's pushing the button for the
garage door to try to make it godown, which obviously like
breaks the motor for the garagedoor because he's just pushing
it to make it go down.
I've got something blocking it.
All I wanted to do was go inthe house and get my things.

Speaker 1 (07:24):
And.

Speaker 2 (07:26):
I just wanted to get my baby's things and my son's
things, that's it, and some ofmy clothes.
That's it, because when hisfriends came from the police
department, they wouldn't let metake my things with me, so yeah
, and then when you finally do,you know you're in and the
police.

Speaker 1 (07:47):
he's like well, her things aren't even here.
And then he looks in a bag andI think it was, it was girl
stuff, for sure and he's likeare these yours?

Speaker 2 (07:55):
That was awesome.
It was awesome.
Like yeah, it's yourunderclothes.
Like like hello, do you wearwomen's underclothes?
Like no, you don't.
So okay, let's just keep itmoving, buddy yeah.

Speaker 1 (08:07):
So you took your things you do get your things
and you go back to your newplace at this time and you're
just like scattered all of yourbelongings on the floor from
trash bags and you rememberthinking you've made it and in a
way you did.
But there was a long way to go.
And this next chapter of yourlife was even scarier as the

(08:29):
abuse of the children unfoldedand everywhere you turned the
authorities, nobody would helpyou.

Speaker 2 (08:38):
Not one person.
Not one person helped me.
It is unbelievable.
I've actually and I disclosethis in the book I met with a
prosecuting attorney in a localcounty and she read my book and
she just said you know, this istragic because in my case I

(09:01):
literally had everything thatwas needed to lock people up for
the crimes that they hadcommitted against my children
that were just so heinous, oh mygosh, because it was like all
these different counties andbecause you're dealing with
corrupt people that are in powerliterally could not move the
needle, could not move theneedle.

(09:23):
So it was just day after day,week after week, month after
month, year after year.
No joke for three.

Speaker 1 (09:29):
Oh my gosh, no joke right.

Speaker 2 (09:39):
Yeah.
So I couldn't get anybody tohelp me.
And even when people did, Ithought were helping me like
investigators would come andinvestigate the children and
then the children would disclosethat they had been abused and
sexually molested and raped andall of these horrible things,
and they would tell theauthorities what had happened,
they would cite it and then nocharges were ever brought.
It's just, it's absurd.

(10:01):
It is a an atrocity, in myopinion.
I think that it is maddening.
I can't believe that this iswhere we were at in the justice
system, but nonetheless, that'swhere we were, and I just want
to make sure that our listenersunderstand my son and daughter
and they had come back fromtheir last visit with abuse.

(10:25):
I did not ever send them back.
Once I knew, like once she camehome and he came home both of
them with visual signs of sexualabuse.
They never went back.
Prior to that it was like oh,so-and-so did such and such and
I thought, well, if I got acourt order that said that

(10:46):
Rylind and Sadie couldn't bearound certain people, I felt
like that was going to keep themsafe.
I had no idea that my childrenwere being abused by their very
own father.
No idea.

Speaker 1 (10:59):
Right, there was.
I had a visual in my head whenI was reading all of that and it
was like this you know streetsjust in all directions with all
these dead ends at the end ofthem, and you were just going
from police to judges, to CSB,to you know everybody, and every
single time it literally was adead end.

(11:19):
And talk about playing God.
And talk about playing God, Imean, it just seemed that each
of these players felt that theywere almost like a God over your
life and they treated you allhorribly and I can't believe
that, even when a child and youknow he did your son ended up
saying quite a bit eventually,what he was saying wasn't even

(11:43):
taken as truth.

Speaker 2 (11:45):
It wasn't.
It's wild to me.
I can understand being verycautious and wanting to make
sure that you don't falselyimprison someone you know what I
mean or send someone with falseallegations to prison over
something that they did not do.
I understand all of that.
But my son had substantiatedinvestigation with Children's

(12:13):
Services, and so did my doc, andthey named my ex-husband, their
biological father, as theirperpetrator and no one would do
anything to help us.
And I I mean, I don't know whata person's supposed to do.
You've gone to literally everysingle source.

(12:34):
You've gone to counselors,you've gone to police, you've
gone to judges, you've gone toguardian ad litems, you've gone
to I mean, children's services,literally every single thing.
And Daryl was so convincing,ann, that he had all of those
people believing that he was theone that was the victim.

Speaker 1 (12:53):
And that's how a narcissist is.

Speaker 2 (12:55):
They are always the victim.
Everybody's done them wrong and, in his own words, everybody
did me dirty, you know, andreally flip it the other way.
He's doing everyone else wrong,but who was so convincing and
such a professional con artistthat he had all of these people
eating out of his hands?

Speaker 1 (13:15):
Yeah, you had an investigator on the case that
had only been there about 18months, you say, and some of the
things that were done I wasjust because, you know, I've
adopted my kids.
They had been abused and I knowthe system quite a bit actually
.
And they interviewed Daryl'sfamily in a group.

(13:38):
I mean, I had never even heardof that before.
They didn't even talk to youand they didn't even talk to
Rylan and some of the thingslike okay, the investigator said
that he felt that there was nosign of sexual abuse because the
abuser denied it.

(13:59):
Because the abuser denied it,I'll tell you what I have never
met an abuser that says, yep, Idid it.

Speaker 2 (14:08):
It's absurd.
It's absolutely absurd.
There is a process that you aresupposed to follow as an
investigator when there areclaims of abuse, and he
literally didn't do any of them.
He put the entire family andevery single person that had
been accused of any type ofabuse in their living room and

(14:29):
asked them point blank did youabuse these children?
These are the nicest peopleever.
They would never do somethinglike that.
They said no and he closed hiscase and moved on Like literally
absurd.
I mean, did not do his job inany way, shape or form.

Speaker 1 (14:45):
I can't even imagine that.
Like I said, nobody's going toadmit it and your son even named
who was doing things to himstill nothing.
But they show up at your oryour mom's house when there was
a bruise, unexpectedly, theyjust show up, you know.
So I mean there was such adifference in the way you were

(15:07):
handled and the way he washandled all the way through this
.
They even had a case not openat all because the caseworker
forgot to open it, so it wentuninvestigated for a really long
time.
And you kind of touched on thisearlier.
How counties?
Because there were things goingon in different counties and

(15:28):
they weren't talking to eachother.

Speaker 2 (15:31):
No, that's.
I think that's probably one ofthe biggest downfalls in the
case, because I couldn't geteverybody in every county to get
on the same page, like wecouldn't put all the pieces of
this puzzle together on onetable and be like see here, see
here, see here.
And to your point earlier aboutDaryl trying to claim that

(15:53):
there was a bruise on Rylandthat I had put on him, there was
such a mudslinging contestgoing on and it just looked like
every single time I would saysomething, he would combat it.
Yeah for sure Against me inorder to try to cover up the
truth.
So it's like you can't win atthis battle.

(16:15):
And he was never tiring, it waslike the Energizer bunny.
I just thought like how muchlonger are we going to have to
do this?

Speaker 1 (16:23):
You know, your son had a hard time talking to some
of the authorities and so theydiscredited him.
And I was just thinking thatwhat little kid is going to be
able to really say those thingsanyway?
And just because he wasn'treally able to give his address
and things like that, whenyou've been traumatized and

(16:44):
you're a little kid, and evenwhen you're an adult, sometimes
you're not able to say some ofthe basic things.
But he was screaming in so manydifferent ways with his
behavior and everything else,and he did actually say it with
his mouth.
They should have listened tohim, even if he couldn't say
some of those basic things.

Speaker 2 (17:03):
Agreed, I don't think a child can articulate abuse.
Anyway, I mean the way that mychildren described the sex abuse
was just.
I mean, you have to understandintercourse, you have to
understand sex and what happensduring sex in order to be able
to even understand what athree-year-old is telling you

(17:23):
about what someone's doing tothem.
I mean, they would have had tohave seen it, experienced it,
watched it.
Something had to have happenedand the fact that he was
completely discredited theentire time.
It's just.
There's a lot in there ofemotion, because it's still hard
for me to even like think aboutit, because I'm like we were

(17:47):
done so unjustly.
Where was the justice?
Where is the justice for mychildren?

Speaker 1 (17:53):
You know Exactly, oh my gosh.
You know, yeah, and that wickedwitch Judge.
I mean you kept getting her andI just was like what is
happening?
I mean she treated you sodifferent than she treated Daryl
and she even rolled her eyes atyou and laughed, but allowed

(18:17):
him to talk and interrupted youand even nodded her head in
agreement with him.
I mean I just couldn't believeall the things that were
happening with the judge.

Speaker 2 (18:30):
It's wild that these people are in power.
I mean, what are we to do whenthis is what we are letting run
our society?

Speaker 1 (18:41):
Yeah, yeah, and she was another one that discounted
your son.
Yeah, yeah, and she was anotherone that discounted your son
and, yeah, I can't believe howshe took him back to talk to him
.
I mean, you say that he didn't.
She didn't even hold his handand basically you were saying
that there was nothing warmabout this interaction between
the two of them.
And if you're going to talk toa child about something that's

(19:04):
happened to them, my kids werehurt by somebody and we actually
have a center in our countywhere they take them back.
It's a play area.
There's a glass where theydon't even know that all these
police and everything arewatching behind this glass and

(19:28):
it's very private.
Nobody knows even where this is, unless your child has been
abused in some way, and theyhave to go talk to authorities
and they have a counselor inthere playing with them and
doing all these things andgetting it out with them in a
very natural way, and they don'teven really know what's
happening.

(19:48):
So I just couldn't believe thatthat's how they did it.

Speaker 2 (19:54):
I couldn't either.
I still can't.
It still is mind-boggling, andthat's why when you said in the
beginning like this really islike made for a movie, Because
it is so unbelievable you can'teven make sense it exposes a lot
of this it does, and I thinkthat's one of the reasons why

(20:16):
they were fighting me so hardwas because they didn't want me
to expose their uh, corruption.
Um, you know, it's so funnybecause I just finished and I'll
just tease this out because Ithink it's appropriate right
here and but I just finishedfilming for a documentary and
it's on a very, very, very big,big, big streaming platform.

(20:40):
And it's funny because theydidn't.
They wanted to silence me, theywanted to silence me.
They wanted to silence me.
They wanted my, my children, tojust be quiet and let the abuse
continue and just let anothergeneration of people just
continue to, um, you know, be uh, silenced and and abused.
That's all I can say.
And so I I have refused to letthat happen.

(21:02):
And it's interesting nowbecause, fast forward I mean,
writing a book about my life wasso wild I never thought in a
million years I would be able todo this.
But now, writing this book andhaving this platform that I'm
using my pain for purpose tohelp other people, it's like you

(21:22):
thought you were going tosilence me.
And it's funny because now Ihave a much larger voice and a
much bigger platform than Iprobably ever would have if you
would have just left me alone.
You know what I mean.
So, things all work out for areason.
But it's wild when you thinkabout like full circle moment.
You know.

Speaker 1 (21:42):
I mean even the hospital and there were physical
exams and there was evidenceand I mean you had all the
things.
I just don't know where allthis proof was going.
It was just like poof, andwhere was it going that these
people weren't?
And there was even a part whereit was substantiated and it was
marked substantiated, but itwas still ignored.

(22:06):
And there were letters writtenby let me see daycare workers or
something, and even that wasignored.

Speaker 2 (22:15):
That's correct Everything was ignored.

Speaker 1 (22:18):
But they did pay attention to the child support
because that was black and white.
I mean, that was the only thingthat I could think of as why
they paid attention to that.

Speaker 2 (22:29):
Well, I mean, that's fast forward, like 13 years from
the time the case kind of ended.
So, yeah, so quick backstory.
He was after the children weredisclosing that he was indeed
the perpetrator and that one ofthe perpetrators and that we did
have substantiated reports fromchildren's services.

(22:49):
He went dark for almost a decadeand then when he resurfaced, we
were in court and the judgesame judge was trying to
reestablish parenting time, andnow the kids are much older.
You know, a whole decade haspassed and we were really just

(23:10):
trying to figure out where wewere going to go and because,
honestly, like we couldn'tafford to keep going with the
attorney fees.
We had a case that went to theOhio Supreme Court and one of
the reasons why I did the childsupport thing was my husband,
who is an incredible human being, really MVP in this whole

(23:30):
entire story.
But he convinced me to be myown attorney and said you know,
we can't afford to hire anotherattorney, so maybe you can still
get pressure on Daryl by usingchild support, which you're the
only person that has access tohis financials.
So that was kind of the reasonwhy we used that strategy and

(23:52):
indeed that was what ended upbeing helping to be one of the
linchpins, you know, in thiscase.

Speaker 1 (23:58):
Well, while that was, I mean we'll get to all of that
, but he was living large, toall of that, but he was living
large, large, when you werestruggling with all of these
things.

Speaker 2 (24:16):
Absolutely.
He was living in a nearlymillion-dollar home in a
beautiful golf club communityand driving a Mercedes S550,
like the highest know thatMercedes even makes Driving a
Dodge Viper.
He was traveling all over theworld, going to Sierra Leone and
, you know, going to Miami andlike going to private fights and

(24:38):
had VIP passes to meet with,like you know, this very
important boxer and he was withFloyd Mayweather Just names VIP
people going to games, likefootball games and sitting front
row and getting box seats, andgoing to Disneyland and taking

(25:00):
his family there and justliterally living his best life.
And I'm over here strugglingand my husband's working a
second job and we're pullingevery single dime out of savings
to try to afford to pay for ourattorneys.
It was wild.
We were in litigation this timeon those seven years.

Speaker 1 (25:21):
Your entire life, it seemed, was with courts and
handling things with him.
It was just so time-consumingfor you.
And another thing if youweren't going to uphold your end
with the visitations and thingslike that, with what you knew
enough that you really believedthat he was abusing them, you

(25:44):
were going to go to jail.

Speaker 2 (25:46):
Oh yeah, I was sentenced to jail and I appealed
it like three different timesSame judge.
She sentenced me to jailbecause the children refused to
go with Daryl and exercisevisits with their perpetrator
that she ordered them to do.

Speaker 1 (26:05):
You know, I thought that they're at least in Ohio.
I don't know.
I mean, isn't there an agelimit when you can say that you
don't want to go see your parent?

Speaker 2 (26:14):
No, ma'am 18.

Speaker 1 (26:15):
No 18?

Speaker 2 (26:18):
Okay, that's not okay that you don't have a say
that's right, we need billreform here.
I mean for sure you know mychildren both had to end up
aging out.
So if you haven't read the bookI'll just kind of give a little
quick insight to our reader orto our listeners.

(26:40):
But basically in the book Iexplain that the court ordered
visits.
My son is three years olderthan my daughter, so by the time
he hit 18, he went to college.
My daughter still had threemore years to go until she was
18.
So she had to continue up forthe visits.
She didn't want to leave withDaryl for the visits and then

(27:00):
they sentenced me to jailbecause the kids refused to
leave.
I mean she's 15, 16, 17 yearsold.
I mean I just can't believethat Birthday, literally in a
freaking McDonald's with Daryl'swife, who Daryl didn't even
show up on her 16th birthday, hesent his wife again.
You know, to visit.
It's just unbelievable that theyhave no voice, they have no say

(27:25):
, and it's documented that he istheir perpetrator.
So why they would want to forcethem to do visits is absurd and
it's just disgusting.
I don't know what else to say.

Speaker 1 (27:35):
And that's so scary.
As a parent, you know, I wasreading, for one thing, when you
wrote like wife number two, Iwent what Wife number two, I
went what Wife number two?
And then you had to deliver,which she left too.
But you had to deliver yourkids to a person and you didn't
even know where they lived.
And when you you went on thishunt for the house and you went

(27:59):
for an envelope that you hadgotten from wife number two, I
think for Easter or something,and then you ended up like going
on this hunt and looking fromaddress to address and you found
a million dollar house, 9,000square feet, and I think it was,
or something like that, and butthere was nobody.
I mean there was no furniture.

(28:20):
And then you got to hisparents' house and there was
nothing.
I think.
I mean it was unbelievable, Imean that would be so scary that
you don't even know where yourkids are.

Speaker 2 (28:34):
Oh no, and that's flashing back.
So that was when they werelittle, little like, oh okay,
three and six years old.
That was when he was married towife number two in the first
million dollar house that he wasliving in, with no job.
Yeah, and it was wild.
So it's like I finally was ableto track him down and it's like
you don't even have furniturein this house, you know.

(28:55):
And then found this house andthere was no furniture there and
I'm like, do these people evenlive here?
Like what is going on?
I mean, it just seemed soincredibly bizarre and no one
was listening.

Speaker 1 (29:06):
Yeah, your daughter also had signs of abuse as well.

Speaker 2 (29:11):
Yes, she did.
Unfortunately, she was orderedto do overnight visits with
Daryl when she turned threeyears old from this horrible
judge, and at that time I stillthought that it was other people
in Daryl's family that had beenabusing the kids, and so we had

(29:32):
one of his family members namedin our divorce decree that was
not to have any alone time,unsupervised time, with our
children, and that person endedup fast forward.
He's actually serving time inprison for gross sexual
imposition of a minor and rape.
This is the same person whoalso abused my kids.

(29:53):
So, anyway, I was thinking thatWIKE number two was going to
protect my kids and that nothingwas going to happen to them.
But, to your point, and yes, mydaughter did come home, was
returned to me from a visit withvisual signs of sexual abuse,
as was my son.
That was their last visit, andI did not know, though, at the

(30:14):
time, that he had alreadyseparated from wife number two,
and so the children didn't haveany supervision other than him
and his family.

Speaker 1 (30:24):
That's so scary.
You know, when your kids werenaming people and they were
saying that they weren't allowedto tell.
I mean, everything was therebut nothing, and they accused
you of coaching them and someoneactually said to you that
there's not enough evidence.
Send them back to Daryl's andget more proof.

Speaker 2 (30:50):
I mean that was an investigator, by the way, with
the local sheriff's department.
Yeah, that's what she told me,and so I just said it's never
going to happen.
I mean that was the turningpoint for me when I thought, ok,
well, if I have to shave myhead, move to a new country,
create an alias, make up a newlife, like whatever I'm going to
do, but they will never, evergo back to his lair ever again.

(31:13):
They will not, and they didn't.
They didn't from that timeforward.
So I mean there was a lot inbetween there, but you're
exactly right, no one listened.
I mean there was a lot inbetween there.

Speaker 1 (31:27):
but you're exactly right.
No one listened yeah that to me.

Speaker 2 (31:33):
when somebody says go back, let your kids be abused a
little more so we can get moreproof.
Yeah, no, we're done.
You've got enough evidence.
You've got enough proof.

Speaker 1 (31:39):
And at this time I mean your kids are in PTSD.
I mean, what did PTSD look likein your son?

Speaker 2 (31:46):
Well, I mean, he was five years old and attempting
suicide, right?
So I mean, I don't think itgets any worse than that, ian,
it doesn't?

Speaker 1 (31:57):
no, it doesn't.
No, I mean, I just think thatthat's absolutely horrible that
they've had to have a life ofthese memories.

Speaker 2 (32:05):
I agree, and it's.
It's unfortunate because thesystem totally, um you know,
failed us in every single way.

Speaker 1 (32:14):
Shaping for him you know, there was something that I
it really hit me that he felthelpless, not being able to help
his sister.
You know, and I think thatsometimes that that can be worse
.
You know, when you see asibling or somebody close to you
being abused and you can't doanything to help them.

Speaker 2 (32:36):
I agree with you.
That leaves an indelible markon us as humans, because we
innately want to take care ofeach other.
We want to help each other andhe couldn't.

Speaker 1 (32:48):
Yeah, he was even told not to cry too, as a really
young one.

Speaker 2 (32:53):
Yes.

Speaker 1 (32:53):
By your husband or your ex, and when he was hitting
him, he would tell him you knowno tears.

Speaker 2 (33:02):
Oh, absolutely.
I mean, that's how he works.
I mean you're not allowed tohave emotion, You're not allowed
to have feelings.
He completely desensitizes you.

Speaker 1 (33:11):
I love that you got Rylan into so many things.
You know drums, sports and whenhe was going through some of
those PTSD things which Ithought was really important for
our listeners you know drums,sports and when he was going
through some of those PTSDthings which I thought was
really important for ourlisteners to know is that you
did things like at bath time andat bedtime and things like that
to help his mind.
I thought that was so great.

Speaker 2 (33:32):
Well, you know, I just knew that I didn't like the
prognosis, I didn't like thelife sentence that I felt like
he was given from all of themedical professionals because of
his trauma and abuse, and Ijust felt like I needed to be
his biggest cheerleader, and soI just started employing every

(33:57):
single modality I could to tryto help him heal and get on a
path to recovery.
Because we're all here, we'reliving a life.
You might as well live a lifewell-lived, in freedom and in
the fullness that you'resupposed to have, not being
miserable and suffering yourentire life.
And if he wouldn't have gottenthose opportunities, he would

(34:18):
still be suffering even morethan he still does.
I mean, we all still suffer,you know, from the aftermath of
it, but we're much better thanwe used to be.

Speaker 1 (34:27):
You call child abuse the secret crime.
I thought that that was reallyprofound and the actual child
protection system muffled yourchild's cries.
I just was so angry at thesystem.

Speaker 2 (34:44):
Yeah, it evokes a type of anger and disdain for
the system when you reallyunderstand what they did to
these children.

Speaker 1 (34:56):
One of the things that you did that I love, that
helped you to some degree, wasyou actually took notes, and
it's so important to people thatare going through something
similar to have that notebook,you know that journal, of being
able to say this is when weshowed up, this is when you know
he showed up, or this is whathappened, or whatever.

(35:17):
I mean, it's really importantto document all of that and have
it in writing.

Speaker 2 (35:22):
Absolutely, and I encourage people to continue
doing that.
You know doing it on your phone.
I know people are fans of that.
Now, yeah, I know this type ofthing.
It can just be deleted from thecloud and then you don't have
any record of it.
So document if you can, even ifit's an abbreviated version in
some type of a journal or diary.

Speaker 1 (35:44):
Now your friend Meredith said something that I
think resonates with a lot ofpeople, where they start blaming
themselves for not being ableto help you.
And so do you have any messageto people like your friends
around you who were blamingthemselves, or to other people
that were just if they seesomebody being abused and they

(36:07):
feel like it's their fault thatthey weren't getting out?

Speaker 2 (36:12):
Yeah, I mean.
My only message to friends ofpeople who are being abused is
don't give up on them andcontinue to be a strong support
system because they feel soalone.
And it's not your fault.

(36:32):
It's not your fault.
It's not meant to save theworld.
So don't internalize that.
It's not your fault.
You know to save the world, youknow.
So don't internalize that.
But do try to support yourfriend or your family member and
do try to find resources andconstantly sneak them
information as you can, and sowthose seeds and then water,

(36:53):
water, water, water, so thateventually that person can get
to a place where they feel likethey can, you know, jump.

Speaker 1 (37:00):
Now Daryl.
We talked about how he caredabout looking all the time to
the outside world, but hestarted getting into trouble.
So what happened?

Speaker 2 (37:12):
Yeah, so he had been gone.
He had stopped coming tovisitations and stopped any type
of communication in 2007.
So we had slowly put the piecesof our life back together.
But I always had people thatwere kind of keeping an eye on
him and what was happening.
And he happened to be on theDayton Daily News in an article

(37:37):
where they had investigated himfor fraud.
He ended up being found guiltyin 2000 and I think 13 or 14.
It took several years to getthat prosecuted, tried, whatever
, and he had three felonies atthat time for fraud.

(37:57):
And he was stealing from peopleand posing as an investment
broker who was going to taketheir money, invest it in his
gold mine in Africa and, youknow, give them a 20 percent
return on their investment.
And he literally, justbasically stole their money.

Speaker 1 (38:18):
And even then he ended up pretty much getting off
.

Speaker 2 (38:23):
Oh, yes, so he should have received, or the maximum
sentence that he could havereceived was the six and a half
years in the federalpenitentiary for the crimes that
he was found guilty of, and hegot zero time in prison and a
few years of non-reportingprobation.

Speaker 1 (38:43):
Unbelievable.
Now, going back to you for aminute, you say that even the
warrior gets weary and you aretired of fighting, and you said
that you could have gotten madat God and turned your back on
him.
You said that you could havefallen into substance abuse to
turned your back on Him.
You said that you could havefallen into substance abuse to
numb.
You could have become thebitter, vindictive ex, but you

(39:04):
instead sought guidance from Godand from counselors, and I
thought that that said so muchabout who you were.

Speaker 2 (39:11):
Thank you, ann.
That means a lot.
I did.
You know we can choose.
My mom always said you canchoose to get better or to be
bitter.
And I just I didn't want to usethe energy that I had for any
more bitterness or pain, becausewe had already had so much of
that.
I wanted to heal and I wanted tolive and I wanted to have a
full life and I wanted my kidsto have that full life, and so

(39:33):
that's why I just chose like thehigh road, and I just felt like
he's going to get his.
I mean, you reap what you soweventually, and so I mean it
might have been longer thanothers, but I always say trust
the process, trust the process.

Speaker 1 (39:49):
And in patients it's hard when you have to wait years
to be able to see some thingscome to fruition.
But when you say that you wentfor counsel, I mean the church
actually shunned therapy, so howdid you get past that?

Speaker 2 (40:08):
Yeah, you know.
So this is interesting and thisis just my personal belief.
But I feel like we do people adisservice when we tell them,
like Christendom says, like, oh,you just need Jesus or whatever
, you just need God.
And like everything's fine.
And like, albeit, yeah, we doneed God and we do need that

(40:31):
higher power to connect with,like we also need to be able to
manage our emotions and learn,like, okay, these are the
effects of trauma, this is whatit looks like in your life and
this is how you have to dealwith it and manage it from a
psychoanalysis perspective andbe able to have through it.
It doesn't mean that like.
God and like no other modality.

(40:51):
I mean we would all be lost.
So, in my opinion, I believethat, like employing all of
these other things like therapyand being able to utilize, like
different modalities to help mebe able to process my trauma and
my children be able to processtheir trauma, was going to give
us an optimal life and that waswhat I was going for.

(41:13):
So that's kind of how I, how Iwork.

Speaker 1 (41:16):
Oh, absolutely, and there's even Christian
counselors, I mean, and you cameacross Miss Julie and one of
the favorite things that shesaid to you that I loved was
that guilt, and shame, you know,does not belong to you.

Speaker 2 (41:30):
No.

Speaker 1 (41:31):
That belongs to the perpetrator.
That's hurt the kids, not toyou.
Traitor, that's hurt the kids,not to you, and I was so glad
that you got to hear that fromsomeone to remove that shame and
get permission actually to feelthat way and also to start
taking care of you.

Speaker 2 (41:47):
Yes, 100%.
I love that.
I still remember that to thisday because you know it does
rear its ugly head occasionallyLike how could you do, do this,
how could you marry somebodylike this?
And I have to constantly likeno, I mean, julie was amazing,
an incredible counselor, and thefact that when she said that it
literally like helped set mefree because I was like oh, I

(42:07):
bet, oh, yeah, I could feel thatfor you it was so wonderful, I
mean.

Speaker 1 (42:12):
and then you had a second chapter where it didn't
go very well.
But what I love most is thatyou know your second marriage
was the fact that you knew hewas not treating you well.
You knew he didn't leave you,that you needed to leave right
away.
But you had become such astrong person by this time that

(42:34):
your daughter immediately wentoh, did he lie?
And you're like, yeah, and shesaid, you know, started carrying
his things out.
And she had watched you standup for yourself so much so that
you know she said, oh, yeah, helied.
Well, no, he out.
So I know it was just so coolto watch your strength be passed

(43:01):
on to her absolutely.

Speaker 2 (43:04):
I mean to know her now.
It's like, oh my gosh, she'salways been such a strong spirit
.
But, yes, like seeing her, evenas a little child five, six
years old like we're not goingto stand for this, nobody's
going to lie to us, nobody'sgoing to treat us like this.
We don't deserve this.
You know, it is amazing, and Imean she didn't end up that way

(43:24):
just accidentally.
I mean, it was very much of metrying to encourage her to use
her voice and to be strong andnot to settle for less than what
she deserved.

Speaker 1 (43:35):
You asked at this time I mean you had had some two
, two crappy marriages.
I mean let's and and you werestarting to get pretty upset
with God.
Like you know, these people,other people, they have really
wonderful lives and why?

Speaker 2 (43:53):
you know why God so I mean, did you stay in that
question very long?
You know that wasn't a reallylong season, thankfully, but I
really did want an answerbecause I wanted so desperately
to live a happy, fulfilled,victorious life and I tried so

(44:18):
hard.
I just kept.
I couldn't get out of my ownway and I'm not really a person,
so I was trying to force thingsinto happening and I mean, one
of the greatest things about meis I make stuff happen and one
of the worst things about me isI make stuff happen.

Speaker 1 (44:36):
That's awesome.
That's awesome.

Speaker 2 (44:38):
It's like you have to understand, like how to bridle
that gift, and I was likeforcing it instead of just being
like you know what, in thisarea, the right thing is going
to happen for us at the righttime.
And I am not going to keeptrying to force relationships or
force people to do things.
You know, because I have nowtaken control, I've taken that

(45:00):
agency of my life, which wasbeautiful and a wonderful thing,
but also realizing like, okay,I have to learn to trust myself
again.
That was hard because I've madeso many mistakes repeatedly and
I thought, oh my gosh, you know, I knew that it wasn't God's
fault.
Like I'm the one making thesedecisions, I can't blame God

(45:22):
that I'm marrying another personthat you know is abusive.
So, anyway, it didn't last thatlong and I was finally able to
come to terms with it, thankgoodness.

Speaker 1 (45:32):
Well, you ended up having a head-on collision with
grace, you call it I did.

Speaker 2 (45:38):
It was wild.
Um, I've always felt unworthy,I've never felt good enough and
I was coming out of my secondmarriage and I had, like this
dream, slash vision, slash likeout-of-body experience.
I can't even.

Speaker 1 (45:56):
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (45:57):
You know, and it was wild I mean you can read the
book to get like the full effectbut basically in my vision, in
my dream, jesus came to me andhe was walking toward me and my
grace moment was just seeingthis vision, this just person,

(46:24):
so full of love, like the mostperfect love you've ever seen.
I mean there was fire in hiseyes and he was just so beaming.
He was this radiant love and Ihad never known love like that.
I didn't even know, love likethat existed.
And when I looked at him I waslike, oh my God, it was just so

(46:48):
much perfection, I couldn't eventake it.
And I fell on my knees and Icovered my face like this, like
no.
And he kept saying I love youand I'm like no, you don't, you
don't love me, you can't love me.
Don't you know what a mess I am.
It was like don't you know whatI've done?
I screwed everything up.

(47:08):
I'm a horrible person because Ican't seem to get it right now.
I've got two failed marriages.
You don't love me.
And in my dream he just took hishands and he cupped my face and
he pulled my head up, just sosweetly and just compassionately
and he said and it was like Ifelt it like down in my soul and

(47:33):
it was like I don't need towalk around in shame anymore.
I don't need to have my headshame anymore.
I don't need to have my headdown anymore.
I didn't fail.
I tried really, really hard tolove.
I tried really hard to be agood wife.
I can't help it if other peoplehave addictions and these
things that they can't get over.
But I am not a horrible human,because there have been things

(47:54):
that have happened to me thataren't perfect.
No one's perfect and perfectisn't relatable anyway.
So it's kind of that turningpoint in my life, with grace
that I don't know, and it wasjust the most wonderful thing
that had ever happened up tothat point.

Speaker 1 (48:11):
Yeah, I really felt that when you painted that
picture of that grace head-oncollision.
It was absolutely beautiful andyou said in there that it
happened to you and that'sreally important.
I mean you didn't do this,these things happened to you.
So I mean that was reallyawesome.

(48:33):
Also, things started to getbetter for you.
You really didn't need a man atthat point.
You were doing great on yourown.
You had created this wholeworld where you had money, you
got a car, you got a house andyou were really taking great
care of yourself.
But there was a place calledeHarmonycom.

(48:54):
So what?
I mean?
Tell us, that was such a greatstory.

Speaker 2 (49:01):
It really is fantastic.
We love to tell the story, Evenour like newer friends now that
, like, have become close withus in the last few years,
they're just like.
That is just the best story.
But I ended up signing up foreHarmony.
One of my friends had abeautiful marriage and she's
like I just think it would begreat.
You know, you're at a betterplace in your life, Like if the,

(49:23):
if it's meant to be, like theright person will come along,
but you don't have to forceanything.
And I just thought, okay, likeit'd be nice to go out to dinner
and maybe have somethingoutside of just being a mom you
know to do.
And so I got an email from Dan,who is now my husband, and we
ended up talking online, goingback and forth via email for

(49:47):
quite a long time, severalmonths so ended up meeting in
person and I mean the rest ishistory.
It's interesting because Inever dated anybody else off of
me Harmony, just him.
Oh, okay, His was the firstmessage that I ever got and I
never ended up talking toanybody else.

(50:08):
I just felt like I didn't wantto juggle like you know, three,
four different guys or whatever,and we had great conversation
and then ended up meeting andyeah, it was wild how my world
had just absolutely flipped inthe opposite direction, but for

(50:29):
the better this time.

Speaker 1 (50:31):
Yeah Well, you did finally find someone who treated
you well and your kids well,and one of my favorite parts was
how Dan helped your son duringa meltdown, the first time of
meeting him.

Speaker 2 (50:46):
Yeah, you know, it's really difficult when you think
about dating again after you'vehad all of this trauma filled
past.
And then you know something wedidn't talk about, but you know
Ryland had a lot of diagnosesand he was on three different
kinds of medications, includingantipsychotics, just to like

(51:07):
function because he had soseverely been abused.
So he had six sexualperpetrators by the time he was
six years old.
He was struggling emotionally,had zero coping skills and even
with all of the medicationsantipsychotics different things
that he was on it was still hardto regulate and I needed

(51:27):
someone to understand that thisis what I come with.
I am a full package.
I have two children and if youare going to be in a
relationship with me, this iswhat you're going to get.
And so we got to the point indating where I felt like Dan
needed to meet my son.
And that very first night Rylandhad a meltdown at dinner and he

(51:50):
ended up going to the men'srestroom and he didn't come out
for quite some time.
And so Dan asked me if I wantedhim to go in and check on him
and I said if you would, andRyland was in the bathroom
having him completely melt down.
He was sitting in there cryingon the floor and the very first
thing, you know, dan's like well, what's wrong?

(52:12):
Buddy, like you know, can Ihelp you?
Like what's up?
And Ryland's like my food'sawful and it tastes horrible and
I don't like it and blah, blah,blah.
He's going on and I don't evenhave a dad.
Poor Dan, like God, I mean justgetting dumped all over and
just the very first meeting,bless his heart.

(52:35):
But you know, dan, he's such achamp and he's like buddy, we'll
get you something else to eatand don't you worry about it,
it's totally fine.
And so that was huge, you know.

Speaker 1 (52:45):
I love that.
And he stood by your sidethrough everything and it got.
I mean, there was a lot more tocome.
That was even really crazier.
And he stood by your side andeven through it all, he said
that it was the greatest job inthe world to take care of you
and your kids.

Speaker 2 (53:05):
It's wild to think about Like I would have left me.
I mean, you know what I'msaying.
It must have loved me Like itmust be love, like nobody would
do this if they were not, headover heels, in love with you I'm
not kidding and they justwouldn't do it.
I mean, there's just it's notworth it, you know.
But he's like my biggestcheerleader.
He loves the kids so very much.
He ended up taking his case toadopt the children.

(53:28):
It ended up going all the wayto the Ohio Supreme Court
because my ex Daryl appealed itand Dan stayed the course.
And I mean he's just anincredible human, full of
patience and love and kindnessand all of the things that we
needed from a past filled withtrauma.

Speaker 1 (53:45):
And he had the best proposal ever.

Speaker 2 (53:48):
Oh my gosh, it was.
It was a flash mob proposal.
It was so fantastic and hisdaughters were in on it, mainly
his oldest daughter who was in adinner theater, and she had all
these people come over andsurprise me during the flash mob
proposal.
That was great yeah.

Speaker 1 (54:05):
So you said that Dan didn't take anything from you.
You know he didn't takeanything from you.
He added happiness and when Iread that it just left me in
silence, because that'sbeautiful.
I love that.
Ryland said that he was.
You know that Ryland wasactually calmer around him and

(54:27):
at this time he's almost 13, andDan was going to all of his
sporting events and he lovedhaving this father figure.
So I'm glad that he got toexperience how a man is supposed
to treat his wife and kids andyour daughter also, too warmed
up to him as a parent.

Speaker 2 (54:49):
She really did, and so did Rylan, to your point.
It was incredible.
I had never had a relationshipwith a man and that's why I said
that that didn't take somethingfrom me, like it brought
something to my life.
It's like I had always feltlike I had picked takers, and
that's obviously based upon myown mental health, right,

(55:11):
because I was just trying tofind somebody to want me, and
you'll find people that'll justtake you and then they'll take
and take and take and take andtake from you, right?

Speaker 1 (55:21):
right.

Speaker 2 (55:21):
Or what it is.
It can be money, it can be sex,it can be time, it can be
whatever it is.
But it was like I always feltlike I had to give everything of
myself and I got nothing inreturn.
And that's part of that peoplepleaser place that I was in and
I have someone that was like oh,I want to fix you guys, you
want to fix us dinner, like whatYou're going to?

(55:43):
Oh yeah, don't worry about athing, I'll bring everything
over and I'll fix dinner for you.
And I'm like, okay.
And then I'm thinking in theback of my head cause I have so
programmed like am I going tohave to have sex with this guy?
Am I going to have to dosomething for this man?
Is he going to ask me to dosomething that I don't want to
do in a trade for the fact thathe just made me a meal.

(56:03):
Like that's how like messed upI had been in my past.
And it's like I don't wantanything from you, I just want
to take care of you, I just wantto be good to you.
It's like, wow, mind blown.

Speaker 1 (56:16):
Well, you so deserved to be treated right after
everything that you had beenthrough.
But when you were, you know,when things were going really
well with you, one of the thingsthat happened was been through.
But when you were, you know,when things were going really
well with you, one of the thingsthat happened was your skin.

Speaker 2 (56:30):
Yeah.
So I got diagnosed with skincancer the same year that Daryl
came back from the proverbialdead after his nearly decade of
a hiatus and my skin just tookthe brunt of everything Largest
organ, no less.
And I had done 20 years in thetanning bed.

(56:52):
So I'd started in high schooland you know that was kind of my
time that I was, it was like mytime, victoria time.
I'd get, you know, 20 minutes.
I can go lay in the tanning bedreally quick, take a quick nap,
and that helped me get throughthe rest of the day.
The heat felt good and it justhelped me feel better and
everybody looks a little bitbetter with some sunshine and I

(57:14):
always felt like that.
And so when I ended up gettingdiagnosed with skin cancer, it
was a long journey Lots and lotsof surgeries, lots of biopsies,
the topical chemotherapy creams, just all of it.

Speaker 1 (57:29):
Yeah, the story behind that story was the makeup
and trying to not be pale, lookdarker, and you felt your
beauty was in having that makeupon and not looking pale.
Where do you think that thatcame from?

Speaker 2 (57:48):
You know, I think it was just like a deep-seated
thing within me as a child, justbecause I always had this
spirit of rejection, like thisfeeling like I just was never
enough.
And you know, I think that'skind of a different show for a
different day, and I don't wantto do a meeting of painting in

(58:08):
the rain today, but I will say,yeah, like I was always trying
to like do something big to makepeople love me.
If I do this, they'll like memore.
If I look pretty, they'll likeme more.
If I look pretty, they'll likeme more.
If I wear makeup, then maybe Ican mask like some of whatever.
Like that doesn't feel goodenough, or maybe this will make

(58:31):
me look a certain way which willcause people to treat me
different, and then they'll benice to me and then I'll have
friends.
It was just such like a stateof insecurity and such a
horrible just self image that Ihad, and so I was trying to
always like cover that up andhide behind a mask per se.

Speaker 1 (58:51):
Yeah, just for the record, I waited till the very
end of the book to find out whyyou named the book that.
And I don't often read all theway to the very end of a book,
sometimes with the epilogue andeverything, but I read every
word to find out why you namedit that.

Speaker 2 (59:12):
So much.
Thank you.
I know.
It was like I kept feeling likeI need to tell the reader why
this book is named this, andthen it was so wild, because I
just never got to the placeearlier in the story where I
could unpack that.
But when you read it, though,doesn't it feel like it fits
there?

Speaker 1 (59:27):
You know, I told my son, who's eight, a little bit
about your story and why we weredoing this podcast and I told
him why it was named that and hewent oh, that's so beautiful.
And he's eight.

Speaker 2 (59:43):
I mean what a precious child.

Speaker 1 (59:48):
Yeah.
And he said, Mama, that needsto be a movie from the mouths of
babes.

Speaker 2 (59:55):
We'll take it.
Yes, absolutely, I love that.
Thank you for sharing that withme.

Speaker 1 (01:00:00):
Yeah, you know you had a dream three times and you
started really feeling likeDaryl was going to come back
around.
You know these premonitionsthat you would have.
They were.
I mean, they were real and hedid start coming around again.
You said that it was bonechilling to be around him and

(01:00:22):
I've been abused where and when.
My abuser if they even, or if Ieven sense that they're around
in the same area I could be in,I mean it is.
It affects your skin, for sureit is.
You're scared to death.

Speaker 2 (01:00:40):
Yes, and that was part of my issue was just like
my parasympathetic nervoussystem, like my whole entire
body, was just constantly likecortisol overload, just all of
the things.
It was too much having toconstantly be in front of Daryl
because we were in threedifferent court cases with him,
so we were in litigation all thetime and so he loved that,

(01:01:03):
because he's a sociopath and heliked to be in control, which
you've called a three-ringcircus and I loved, I loved that
.
You know it really.
I mean it was.
It was like a circus I mean,he's a clown anyway but the
bottom line was that my body, myphysical body, was taking the
brunt of all of the mental andemotional abuse.

(01:01:26):
And I do want to just say thatthis is all coercive control in
the court system, and I thinkthere's starting to be a little
bit more awareness aboutcoercive control, but this
really does have a name.
I mean, these people that dothese heinous acts, that commit
these crimes and then theyconstantly are skating through
the justice system and neverbeing held accountable.

(01:01:48):
They're very dangerous, and sowe need to have some type of
reform so that we can helpvictims.
I never wanted to look atmyself as a victim.
I never wanted to say like, oh,victim, I was always like, no,
I'm a survivor and I'm fine.
But at the end of the day, likemy skin didn't take the run on

(01:02:08):
it and my body, my physicalhealth, was suffering just
because of that constant abuse.
And having to see him and be inhis presence because he is so
evil and knowing what he haddone to my children and I, and
then being forced to look at him, was just more than I could
bear.

Speaker 1 (01:02:26):
Yeah, I mean you went for such a long time without
seeing him and then to see himat your son's track meet.
I mean that must have beenparalyzing.

Speaker 2 (01:02:35):
Oh, absolutely it was .
I had a full-blown manic attack.
I mean, it was a dark place.

Speaker 1 (01:02:43):
Right.
And so then, when that startshappening with everything, with
the adoption and the not being,I mean that became a whole
different mess.
I mean I just can't believethat you just weren't able to
break away from him and have Danadopt your kids.

Speaker 2 (01:02:58):
It seemed so unfair.

Speaker 1 (01:03:01):
Now, there was a number that just kept coming up
in your life.
What number was that?

Speaker 2 (01:03:07):
17.
Yeah, it's wild.
I had another dream one nightand you can read the book to get
the full story, because I knowwe're like wrapping but
basically the number 17,.
I woke up out of a dead sleepwith this dream and the number
was repeated twice in my dreamand it was the number 17.
And when I looked it up, thenumber 17 meant complete and

(01:03:31):
total victory over your enemy.
And I was like wild, I couldnot have made that up.
I mean, I really, reallycouldn't.
It was just unbelievable to methat I would even have a dream
that would prophesy or tell ofthe future, that I would have

(01:03:53):
complete victory over thissituation, and nothing could
have been more accurate becauseeventually we got there.
But, yes, I started seeing thenumber 17 everywhere and it just
was like that's amazing.

Speaker 1 (01:04:05):
I have that happen to me with numbers and they do
have meaning.
And right when the kids weregetting ready to go into this
visit with Daryl, you hadsomething else happen.

Speaker 2 (01:04:18):
Yeah, so I'm all about signs.
I'm that person.
It's like I'm not like wooeywooey, but like I am always
looking for, like you know, thesign that things are going to be
okay or whatever.
We were in like a very metroarea and a bald eagle flew down
right above our car right beforewe went in to do this the first

(01:04:39):
supervised visit Incredible.

Speaker 1 (01:04:42):
That was.
That was absolutely beautiful.
I mean the 17s and the Eagles.
I mean that always says to meyou're going in the right
direction, you're doing whatyou're supposed to be doing.

Speaker 2 (01:04:53):
Yes, and that's how I took it.

Speaker 1 (01:04:56):
And I want to revisit what you said earlier about the
lawyer thing.
You became a lawyer in front ofthe very judge that had given
you such a hard no breaks at alland also you got to question
Daryl.
I mean how empowering.

Speaker 2 (01:05:15):
I'm telling you that was literally like the greatest
moment, because my husbandconvinced me to be my own
attorney, Really didn't have anyother choice.
We were out of money, out offunds.
I mean we're trying to keep,you know, the pressure on Daryl.

Speaker 1 (01:05:31):
But you were good at it.
You were really good in thatcourtroom.

Speaker 2 (01:05:35):
I played a good attorney one time.
You were good, I did.
We worked really hard.
We put together all of ourexhibit books.
We did recon for several monthsjust to find everything that we
could put into the exhibitbooks, and my main goal was just
to question Daryl, geteverything that I could out on
the record, really.
So I just needed him to answermy questions so that I could

(01:05:58):
order the transcripts, and thenI had him on cross examination
for an hour and 40 minutes.
He sang like a bird becausehe's a narcissist and he loves
to talk about himself.
And that judge, that wickedwitch of the bench, she hated
the fact that I was, you know,taking as much time as I needed
and she threatened to take awaymy exhibit book and, you know,

(01:06:21):
do it herself.
She told him to plead the FifthAmendment and gave him legal
advice from the.
I know I couldn't believe that.
It's absurd, but to me I feltlike the skies had parted, the
sun had come out and that theangels were singing the
Hallelujah Chorus.
Because for me, I felt soempowered that day and I ordered
the transcripts and handdelivered them to the feds.

Speaker 1 (01:06:46):
Your strength was just so amazing.
I wish that I could have beenin that courtroom and saw that,
because that was so great.
And now, another part was thatyour daughter you know now this
is going on with Daryl and yourdaughter fought the fight for

(01:07:08):
years to be adopted with Dan andher strength just kept growing
and growing and her anger endedup fueling her when she was
dealing with Daryl.
I'll tell you what I was like.
Oh you go, girl, you go.

Speaker 2 (01:07:20):
He is a powerhouse, let me tell you.
I mean, she has absolutelyflipped the script on him.
And when he was like trying tocontrol the visits, those visits
where she was being dropped off, and he was going to pick her
up and take her, she was justlike no, we're going to have a
conversation and you're going tocome over here and this is how
it's going to go.
And I'm going to tell you.
And he was like looking at herlike you're the child you don't

(01:07:43):
get to.
And she's like I'm 17 years old, I am, you know, I do not have
to put up with this.
If you want to have arelationship with me, you come
over here.
And I mean, I was just so proudof that resilience and you know
her persistence to use hervoice and just speak up for
herself and stand up for herself.
You have to stand up foryourself.

Speaker 1 (01:08:01):
Yeah, exactly, and she did not.
I mean bullies, back down whenyou reverse it and it's a bully.
Yeah, he met his match.
I thought that was great and Iwanted to high five her when she
disclosed her abuse to herteacher and she wrote a school
paper and how powerful that wason.

(01:08:24):
Victims can be victors.
Let us utilize these traumaticcircumstances to help others
gain courage and boldness todiscuss their issues, which
ultimately will help them livebetter lives.
She said, and I just thoughtthat that was beautiful, good
for her.
You know she was silenced somuch, but she was able to have a
voice.

Speaker 2 (01:08:45):
She was silenced so much, but she was able to have a
voice.
She was and it's reallyinteresting Like it only came at
the tail end of that entire youknow case that she was able to
utilize her voice.
But it's interesting becauseshe earned an appointment to the
United States Coast GuardAcademy and she's currently
serving there and getting herbachelor's degree.
So I'm like super, super proudof her.

Speaker 1 (01:09:06):
Awesome.

Speaker 2 (01:09:06):
Incredible.
But she's also been able toshare her story with others to
help empower them, which is whatyou were just talking about the
paper that she wrote in highschool.
Now she serves as the vicepresident of CASA Connects
Against Sexual Assault at theCoast Guard Academy.
Oh, that's so great.

(01:09:28):
She spoke at one of themeetings at the Coast Guard
Academy earlier this year in thespring.
They have like this once a year.
It's actually Eclipse is whatit's called, and she spoke at
Eclipse at the Coast GuardAcademy.
Eclipse is what it's called,and she spoke at Eclipse at the
Coast Guard Academy.
She shared her story in frontof the entire Corps of Cadets

(01:09:49):
top brass.
There was like 1,400 people inthe place standing ovation when
she gets done speaking.
So she's continuing to use hervoice for good and continuing to
help other survivors of sexualassault and abuse find their way
.

Speaker 1 (01:10:04):
And so is Rylan.
He's speaking as well, which isamazing.
I mean I would love to have himon someday, possibly I don't
know, but I mean that's so greatthat their strength turned into
being where they are, out therespeaking their truth.

Speaker 2 (01:10:22):
Yes, I agree, I agree with that sentiment 100%.

Speaker 1 (01:10:25):
Protecting your kids becomes a full-time job, and it
did with you for sure.
You should not have had to doall of that.
While you were protecting yourfamily, you also had to take on
Daryl, and you started from onedepartment to the other because
you knew that something waswrong and you knew that he was
living these different lives.

(01:10:46):
When you started realizing, hey, why is he off the radar?
You know so how did he stay offthe grid?

Speaker 2 (01:10:54):
Well, he started using aliases.

Speaker 1 (01:10:59):
That was crazy.

Speaker 2 (01:11:00):
Wild.

Speaker 1 (01:11:01):
Unbelievable.

Speaker 2 (01:11:03):
I can't believe that he actually was so successful
with it.
I mean, I wouldn't even had, Iwould not have had the nerve to
pretend like I was a prince ofany nation and he did, Did he
take on the accents andeverything of a Ghana prince.

Speaker 1 (01:11:22):
You know I would.

Speaker 2 (01:11:24):
He would turn it on and off when it was slow, right,
it was kind of funny.
He would say it like on thestand.
When he said his name, he saidwith, like his, his Ghanaian
accent.
It's not Adipo, like, because Iwould just say Adipo and he had
to put that.
You know that little accent inthere for us.
I'm like you are not fromAfrica, first of all.

(01:11:46):
You're from Dayton, ohio.
We all know where you're from,like on the west side, like you
are.
Definitely you've got an accent, but it's not a Ghanaian accent
by any means.

Speaker 1 (01:11:58):
Well, you finally got the FBI to listen and it took a
year and a half.
I think it was where youfinally got this phone call that
let you know that they'reinvestigating him.

Speaker 2 (01:12:08):
Yeah, it was actually the Secret Service.

Speaker 1 (01:12:11):
Okay, oh, the Secret Service, oh wow.

Speaker 2 (01:12:14):
Yeah, so it's wild because Department of Homeland
Security got involved becauseDaryl was also a pastor and so
he had started a cult, and sothere were a lot of people that
moved with him across countryand some of the people had
family members that wereconcerned about them, and so
they contacted DHS.
And then DHS you know they workreally closely with the Secret

(01:12:38):
Service so it all ended upcoming together and I got a
phone call from the SecretService and I'm like, and I got
a phone call from the SecretService and I'm like we just got
called up to the big leagues.

Speaker 1 (01:12:46):
Yeah, you did.
Oh, yes, you did.
And what I mean P-H-O-P?
When I see it, I see the wordpoop, so I don't know.
I mean he started this cult.
That made me think of poop, andI guess for a reason.
And he did, he took everybody,he got them to believe in him

(01:13:07):
and move them across Colorado,which, by the way, your God, was
very much protecting yourdaughter that day.
The readers will have to readit, people will have to read it.
But yeah, she almost gotkidnapped.

Speaker 2 (01:13:23):
Yeah, she did, and that was one of our biggest
fears.
So you know we had a lot offears, but that was definitely
one of them and thank God shewas safe and stay protected.

Speaker 1 (01:13:33):
So yes, we go through the whole court system and you
know he's convicted.
I mean there were 16 countsagainst him, is that correct?

Speaker 2 (01:13:43):
That's correct, and he was found guilty of 13 of
those.

Speaker 1 (01:13:47):
Well, God is bigger than every single thing that he
tried to do, and so, fortunately, god won, and so did you guys,
but at the very end I think itwas the US Marshals maybe they
took his handcuffs off of himand what happened?

Speaker 2 (01:14:05):
So it was really wild .
I mean, when you read the bookit's a really really crazy long
trial, two weeks long federaltrial.
Right after the height of COVID,and I was watching, after they
had read his sentence or hisverdict, and the federal marshal

(01:14:26):
took his handcuffs off and thenthe other federal marshal put
another set of handcuffs back onand he was already in shackles
and I'm like this just seems sobizarre.
But I was just like whatever,like I don't know.
So they took him out and thenwe were leaving from the gallery
and the courtroom and the USDistrict Attorneys and the

(01:14:49):
Secret Service were there and wewere kind of just like
debriefing, like how do you feel?
Like what, you know, what'sgoing on, whatever everything
you've done to help us prosecutethis case and to make sure that
we brought justice, not onlyfor the victims but also for you

(01:15:14):
and for your kids and I justhave a small token for you.
And the Secret Service agentreached in his pocket and handed
me those handcuffs that were onDaryl, and I was just like, oh
my God, like greatest, greatestyou know moment ever, I bet.
Do you still have them?
Oh, I do.
They're actually like you can'tsee it in the frame, but
they're laying right here,within an eye shot of me and my

(01:15:36):
curio cabinet.

Speaker 1 (01:15:37):
Oh, that's awesome.
And then you wrote to get whereI am, I had to break free from
the shackles of fear, guilt andanxiety.
Now I live in absolute freedom.
So what a representation thatthose handcuffs were.

Speaker 2 (01:15:55):
Absolutely.
You know we can be in controlof our lives, we have agency in
our lives and we can take thecontrol back from people that
have tried to rob us and stealthat from us.
And so I didn't want to live alife of fear and anxiety and

(01:16:15):
trepidation and constantly, just, you know, wandering, like I
just knew that there was morefor me and that there was much
more for my children, and so Ihad to fight for a really long
time to get to this place, but Ican truly say, like I made it,
I mean perfect life.

(01:16:35):
I still have issues.
We all have issues.
I still fight all of the things, like everybody else in the
world fights, but ultimately Ifeel like I've won.
Else in the world bites, butultimately I feel like I've won.
I've won the game of life.
I feel like I have amazing kids, a fantastic husband, a family
that loves me.
I love people.
I get to meet people like you.
I overcame my fear of notwanting to be sharing all of the

(01:17:01):
mistakes I had made, but usingit for the greater good, and
it's working out swimmingly andI just feel really fulfilled and
that's what it's all about.

Speaker 1 (01:17:10):
Yeah, your story.
It's so difficult but yet it'sso empowering, and I can't find
the quote, but one of the quotesthat you said that I loved, had
and you, if you can fill in myblanks something about.
I mean, life is hard but you'regoing to get to the end of the

(01:17:32):
day.
100% of the time it goessomething like that, do you
remember?

Speaker 2 (01:17:38):
I think, basically just saying like the time is
going to pass anyway.
So you know, try I don't knowif this is the one that you were
talking about, but just tryingto utilize your pain for your
purpose and, at the end of theday, like you're going to show
up.
You know you're going to haveto live your life, so you might
as well have a life well lived.
You want to leave a legacy andyou want to be able to inspire

(01:18:01):
other people.
I mean, that's why we're here.
So yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:18:04):
I think our purpose is to take our pain and to use
it for good.
And yeah, I mean, and that'swhat you're doing, and your book
is absolutely going to helpmany people, many people.
So, thank you.

Speaker 2 (01:18:20):
I hope so, Thank you, and thank you for reaching
people and helping bring hope to.

Speaker 1 (01:18:26):
You know a really dark, dark world where a lot of
people are suffering and we canhelp make it better and report

(01:18:48):
it, and I will pray that youhave a much better experience
with all of those entities thatVictoria did not have, because
everybody deserves and I praythat maybe that there's some
changes that happen through allof this 100% If not.

Speaker 2 (01:19:01):
I mean, I haven't given up trying to put a bill up
that would help us get sometype of.
There you go.

Speaker 1 (01:19:08):
There you go, all right.
Well, I really hope thateverybody reads this book, let
people know about this book soyou can take all these little
nuggets that are in there andthen pass them on to other
people, because I guarantee thateverybody will, you know, be
touched by this book in some way.
Or you might know somebodythat's been abused or has you

(01:19:28):
know being abused and that needssome help.

Speaker 2 (01:19:31):
Yeah, so the title's Painting in the Rain A True
Story of Trickery and Trying.

Speaker 1 (01:19:36):
And how can they get a hold of you on your website,
or what is your website?

Speaker 2 (01:19:41):
It's victoriaellenco and it's Ellen E-L-L-E-N, and
that's also my handle for all ofmy social media platforms
Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn,TikTok, all of the above, so
victoriaellenco, as well as onYouTube and you have to wait to
the very end of the book to findout why it's called Painting in

(01:20:03):
the Rain.
Thank you, anne, it's worth thewait.

Speaker 1 (01:20:08):
It is worth the wait.
I mean, I thought I wasn'tgoing to get the answer.
I really thought I wasn't.
I thought I was going to haveto ask you on here, why did you,
you know?
And then there it was.
I was like oh my gosh, and itbrought a smile to my face.
It was a very mixed emotionwhen I read it.

Speaker 2 (01:20:29):
Thank you.
Thank you, it just fit, it wasperfect and you know we all are
doing big things now and we'rehelping each other and I just
appreciate you so much and thankyou for all the work that you
do to help people get out ofthese situations.
And thank you so much for beingon and for all the work that
you do to help people get out ofthese situations.

Speaker 1 (01:20:44):
And thank you so much for being on and for all of our
listeners.
We will see you next time.