July 30, 2025 • 59 mins
Ann and returning guest Denise Bard explore how family secrets shape our identity, relationships, and sense of self, inspired by the Mariska Hargitay documentary "My Mom, Jane." They share personal experiences with secrets kept from them that affected their core identities and discuss the trauma of carrying others' shame.
• According to research, 97% of families keep some type of secret, with those related to identity, trauma, or betrayal causing the most psychological damage
• Secrets create emotional isolation, especially for children who feel they're carrying family shame
• When someone tells you something didn't happen when you saw it with your own eyes, it creates a form of "crazy-making" that causes you to doubt your perception
• Finding out family secrets later in life can cause profound identity shifts, forcing you to re-evaluate who you thought you were
• Breaking the cycle of secrecy is possible by choosing transparency with your own children in age-appropriate ways
• Secrets can be inherited—not just events, but the silence, shame, and survival behaviors
• The healing process is valid however it unfolds, and sometimes telling the truth will break something that needed to break
Remember that there is purpose in our pain and hope in our journey, even when that journey includes uncovering difficult truths about our families and ourselves.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
Welcome to Real Talk with Tina and Anne.
I am Anne and I'm Denise.
Well, for all of you that mightnot remember Denise, this is
Denise Bard.
She used to be a regular and Iam so glad to have her back on.
I'm very excited because thisis an episode and a half.
I recently watched the MariskaHargitay documentary and it
(00:32):
touched me on so many levels.
If you have not watched it myMom, jane, a 2024 HBO
documentary directed by MariskaHargitay.
The movie depicts herrelationship with her family,
especially her mom, who was JaneMansfield, a very famous
Hollywood iconic actress fromthe 50s and 60s, and she
(00:54):
tragically died in a caraccident with all three of her
kids in the backseat, andMariska was one of them and she
was only three at the time.
I'm not giving anything awayfrom the movie.
This is where actually thestory begins.
Mariska in this movie reallyseeks to understand her mom and
who she really was, outside ofthe Hollywood version of her,
(01:16):
and the family secrets thatshaped Mariska's identity.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
I would recommend this to everybody.
Have you seen it, denise, that?
But I did get to watch some ofthe clips and it is it's like
I've been waiting for it to comeout on more platforms so I
could see the whole thing,because it really does draw you
in.
Speaker 1 (01:52):
It does and I plan on watching it again.
I mean it really it spoke to meon so many levels and I don't
like to watch really hardstories where it makes me feel
too much.
You know.
I mean, I normally just walkaway, turn the TV off if I start
feeling something.
I don't know why I'm like that,but sometimes they just hit too
(02:14):
deep and I can't watch.
But this one I had to watchfrom beginning to end and will
probably, like I said, watch itagain because it's my girl, you
know, it's Mariska, and thereare a few celebrities where I
feel like I know them andthey're my friend and she's one
of those people.
And I've been watching SVU foryears and I watch it because I
relate and I feel like she isthat person who validates me and
(02:38):
she helps us feel heard and shehelps us feel believed and I
think somebody who helps giveyou that voice is one of the
most important things that youcan do for somebody.
Speaker 2 (02:50):
Yeah, I think that's right.
She is relatable, especiallylike if you've been in positions
of the keeping secrets.
It's as if you're talking to adear friend or listening to a
friend.
You might not have the samestory, but there's something
about it that you know, and I'vealways said this we might not
share the same story, butthere's such a relatable thing
(03:12):
and when you do, it almost opensyou up and makes those fears of
containment, I don't want tosay disappear, but allows you to
be more vulnerable because youhave somebody else across from
you or like she is, that youknow.
Wow, you know she's vulnerable.
I feel that you know yeah itgives you permission.
(03:34):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (03:36):
She was sexually assaulted and they do talk about
that in the movie and it alsomakes me, helps me, feel closer
to her.
Knowing that about her.
It helps me understand hermission on SBU and the movement
Joyful Heart Foundation forsurvivors of sexual assault,
domestic violence and childabuse.
Everything resonated with meduring this movie, but the part
(04:00):
that hit me in the gut, I think,was how the family secrets were
woven throughout the entiremovie.
And I think one of the biggestkillers of relationships is
secrets and in this case, familysecrets, and the things we
don't talk about, you know, thethings that sit in the corners
of our family history,collecting dust and shaping us
(04:23):
years after they happened, thething that we still don't talk
about with some of our familybecause they still act like that
didn't happen.
And I asked Denise because shehas had such a special place on
the podcast and understands whatI'm talking about.
Speaker 2 (04:39):
Absolutely.
Yeah, I grew up where and thesecrets, especially now, is you
know they were secrets to me,but found out that they weren't
such secret after all becauseother people knew of them.
So it it changes the game whenthey're they're known by other
people.
So are they really a secret?
Speaker 1 (05:00):
A secret to you.
Mm hmm, I mean that's not OK.
That means that there were morethan one people that were.
They were keeping this secretto you.
Mm-hmm, I mean that's not okay.
That means that there were morethan one people that were.
They were keeping this secretfrom you and it was intentional
that they were all collectivelyin on something against you.
Secret's the kind where yougrow up by adults long ago, like
(05:28):
you said, behind closed doorsand the truth was kept from you,
regardless of their reason.
I mean, why do you thinksecrets are kept from kids or
other people in the family?
Speaker 2 (05:38):
I think that there's a number of things.
I think they're kept because itexposes those people to who
they really are.
In my case there was a lot ofabuse.
You don't want anybody else onthe outside.
I always call it a facade Isoutside.
Well, I had to keep the secretson the inside.
My grandmother would always saynobody needs to know what goes
(06:00):
on behind these doors, it'sfamily related, it has nothing.
So you keep these facades onand a lot of people look at you
and have no idea.
They think this is great orwhatever.
But the truth is somethingdifferent on the inside and
those people who are making youkeep those secrets don't want
anybody to know that becausethey are viewed in a different
(06:21):
light.
You know, in public they arenot what they are in private.
So I feel like a lot of timesthere's the whole adoption thing
, and I'm not personally adoptedso I don't know that I'd ever
be able to speak on it.
I know a lot of times parentschoose to not tell their child
either at all, which I don'tknow.
I'm not sure that I would agreeupon doing that, but I don't
(06:45):
live in someone's life wherethey choose to keep it until a
certain age where they feel likethe child would understand.
Speaker 1 (06:53):
Adoption is a really big one, you know.
I mean I was adopted and a lotof secrets were kept and all
five of my kids are adopted andI'll talk more about that later.
All five of my kids are adoptedand I'll talk more about that
later.
But I really do want toemphasize that I wanted the
truth to be out.
I wanted them to know ageappropriate and my kids have
always known that they wereadopted.
(07:14):
I've never kept that from themand I've also let them know
their stories and you know, ifsomebody doesn't tell them, then
somebody else is going to tellthem and they're going to
rewrite the story for them and Ihonestly think that they should
hear the truth as it is, as itreally is.
And if they find out latersomething so horrific or
(07:49):
identity changing I guess thatthen that changes their
relationship with you, becauseyou weren't honest.
Yeah, and I never wanted tokeep things from my kids.
I always let them know from theget-go who they were with the
information that I had.
You know Right.
According to the Journal ofFamily Psychology, family
secrets are common, with up to97% of families keeping some
type of secret.
Research shows that secretsrelated to identity, trauma or
(08:12):
betrayal can have the mostdamaging psychological effects,
often leading to anxiety,depression and strained
relationships, which absolutelyA study by psychologists and I
know I'm not going to say thisright, but Vangelisti and
Coghlan found that secrecywithin families often leads to
feelings of shame, confusion anddistrust, especially in
(08:37):
children.
Why are these secrets kept,like you were trying to talk
about?
Sometimes they're meant toprotect, like you said, of
themselves, that person.
Other times they're aboutavoiding shame or deflecting
guilt.
So often the silence is aboutprotecting the image of the very
person who doesn't want you toknow what they did to you or to
(09:01):
someone else in the family.
But no matter the reason, theimpact is real and sometimes,
especially if it is a child, thesecret is kept so the child is
not hurt, like in Mariska's case.
Do you think, as a child grows,that they should know when a
secret has to do with them?
Speaker 2 (09:20):
I can only talk on personal experience For me, as
I'm 50 years old now, I amcontinuing to learn some of the
secrets that even I didn't knowexist, and so I think that some
of the secrets that I had orthat were kept from me were
traumatic.
However, I remember bits andpieces, and so I never get to
(09:45):
put the story together and putclosure to it, because there are
still secrets being kept, nomatter what they are.
I don't know the appropriateage, you know.
I think it depends on thesecret.
I guess this is such a tricky,tricky situation, right?
If you're for me, you know itwas traumatic.
What happened to me, I don'tthink anybody was going to tell
(10:06):
me at that age, even thoughthere were a lot of people who
knew, right, they didn'tunderstand that I understood so
much.
So now, in my 50s, you know,I'm still understanding what it
was.
But as I'm older now, I'mfrustrated because that part of
the secret has still been keptand I'm still back there.
(10:28):
It's almost like you're stuckin that time.
Speaker 1 (10:31):
When those secrets touch the very foundation of who
you are, they are never small,never, no matter how small you
think that they are.
Honestly, I think oncesomething becomes a secret, it's
no longer small.
It instantly becomes big, itinstantly becomes something.
And maybe it wouldn't have ifit would have been in the open.
Speaker 2 (10:52):
Yeah, there's an emotional toll of silence.
Not all secrets are meant to bemalicious, but when they affect
your identity, your safety,your story, they become harmful.
But when they affect youridentity, your safety, your
story, they become harmful.
Secrets can lead to emotionalfragmentation, where your sense
of self is splintered byhalf-truth, causing you to know
(11:13):
or not know what is true andwhat is not true or what is not
true.
They can create emotionalisolation too, especially for
children who feel they'recarrying the weight of family
shame and boy do I know that.
And most importantly, secretscan be inherited, not just
events, but the silence, theshame, the survival behavior.
(11:34):
Yeah, there's all of that andthen some.
Speaker 1 (11:36):
For me personally, yeah, I want to touch on a
couple of these.
I can relate with the emotionalisolation.
I was that kid who carried theweight of a family secret and I
was told to hold it in and I wasnot allowed to tell it affected
me to my core and affected myrelationship with the person
until they died and I was neverable to let it go.
(12:00):
I've often asked the questionif I forgave that person,
because I know forgiveness is soimportant and I'm a Christian
and I know that that's important.
That's not a question that Ieven think that I can answer for
some reason, and I'm not surewhy.
But what happens when you arethat kid that is told to keep a
(12:22):
secret, or an adult who wasafraid to tell something because
of fear is the manipulator andsurvival is the motivation.
Speaker 2 (12:31):
I always call fear a prison.
You are imprisoned witheverything that is kept secret
because it is the fear I wouldbe told all the time.
For me it was again we don'ttell people what happens behind
closed doors.
Or the fear to keep the secretwas if you tell someone, you're
going to get hurt.
We need to keep this secret.
(12:52):
You don't want them to laugh atyou.
You don't want them to tell youyou're crazy.
You don't want it was alwayssomething that I was told would
happen to me if I told thesecret.
It's as if you know when youhave childhood abuse, especially
sexual abuse, you know they'retold to keep quiet because
(13:13):
somebody else is going to gethurt if you say something.
So the manipulation is there toscare you that if you say
something, somebody else isgoing to get hurt.
And again, like survival, likeI had to keep secrets.
How am I going to be able tosurvive if I didn't?
Those fears, the threats ofkeeping secrets, is what really
(13:40):
silences you in that prison.
But it's something that youtake with you as you get older,
like as I'm older.
Now I'm like I don't know ifI'm going to ever find the
answers to some of those secretsand this emotional toll from
you know, inherited and family.
It's a cycle.
I didn't know that otherfamilies weren't like that.
Speaker 1 (14:00):
Well, the events normally are bad enough, yeah,
but then secrets add an extralayer to everything.
It just makes it so much worse.
And the other part of this iswhat you talked about with
secrets being inherited.
I can say that for you know.
A long time I held on to thesecrets that were done before me
(14:22):
and I felt the power behindthem until family members passed
away.
And then I felt, and after theypassed away I felt free to say
them or at least allow them tobe a little bit more out in the
open, and I even got a dubtattooed on my arm after my mom
died.
I'll just say it.
(14:44):
I mean, it was my mom who kepta lot of the secrets, and my
adopted mom.
After my dad died, some prettyhorrific things happened in my
family when I was 11, 12 yearsold and it honestly could have
be a documentary, and I was madeto believe that I had to take
those secrets to my grave likeshe did.
But then I realized thosesecrets were not mine.
Speaker 2 (15:13):
I didn't do anything wrong, so I was not going to own
their shame.
Yeah, there's so manygenerational secrets in my
family and there was a point inmy life where it was.
I was searching for the answersfor everybody else and I
stopped doing that and I thoughtno, that's you know, that's
your closet to have to figureout.
I can't do that for you, right?
(15:34):
And yeah, it's freeing when you, when you realize that and I'll
say this to my grandmotherpassed away and it was almost
and I hate to say this becausethere were good things, not a
lot, but the abuses that camefrom my grandmother and my
mother were quite different, butit was freeing as well.
(15:56):
I was able to then not be afraidto be me.
I don't know if that you know.
There you go because you were,you know, holding on to
everything and finally, yeah,finally, I can share things and
not worry and have that fear.
You know my mother's stillliving, but we have something in
(16:16):
place where she's not incontact.
There's no contact.
So in our family and everythingthat we have she doesn't exist
and therefore that also, youknow, a judge made sure that
that would never happen again.
So I can't take on their burdenof whatever their secrets were.
Speaker 1 (16:33):
And the shame behind secrets can be devastating and
can affect someone's entireidentity, and I think the
secrets in my family shaped memore than the things that were
out in the open, and that's ahuge thing to say and it's a
hard thing to admit.
Speaker 2 (16:51):
Yeah, you know, when you don't have answers, when
people pass away and they takethat to their grave, so that
piece of me is never going to becomplete and I wasn't adopted.
So I can only say this is whatI would imagine it to be.
When you are a person who isnot with the biological family,
so you're always questioning whoam I?
(17:13):
Right, it's the who am I?
And for me I still have thatquestion.
You know, I didn't know mypaternal, really my paternal
side of my family.
I just reconnected with myfather and I got answers to
secrets that were kept.
This was like a whole otherlevel for me, and so it made me
question even more oh my God,who am I Like?
(17:35):
I know that sounds weird.
Like you said, how is it thatyou don't know your identity?
Right, but it is because themore secrets that come out to
you, you're I don't understand.
It's almost like it alsovalidates all of those feelings
of isolation and validates allthose those emotions of feeling
alone.
It's a lot of validating, too,when secrets come out, as
(17:59):
horrible as they may be and ashard as they may be.
There's a validation in it aswell.
Speaker 1 (18:04):
I mean it's really hard when you believe for a
really long time that you're onething and then all of a sudden
it's like somebody puts anotherpiece in the puzzle but now the
puzzle is completely differentand it will never look the same
again.
So it's like what do you dowith that piece?
That's been missing for areally long time and you've been
(18:25):
okay with it, You've beenliving without it and all of a
sudden now it changes the wholeperspective.
And you touched on somethingelse, which it really is our
perspective of our childhood.
It's how we saw it, it's whatwe remember, what we believe,
and there could be threedifferent kids in the same
family and they remember itcompletely different.
And it's because sometimes, youknow, a parent is different to
(18:49):
every single child.
But sometimes it really doescome down to how each child sees
what happened, and especiallywhen there's dysfunction.
So it's really interesting tosee everybody's different
perspective and the identityshift that happens.
Some people need to know everysingle detail to find peace and
(19:12):
some people don't, and it's okay.
I mean, neither way is wrong.
But when your identity changesin a moment, which has happened
to me quite a few times, itdeserves to be honored.
And when your truth finallysurfaces, it deserves space.
And when your story was shapedwithout your consent, you have
(19:33):
every right to rewrite it onyour own terms.
That is what this movie withMariska, I think, was about and
that's what I would want to askher anyway, if I ever got the
chance.
But someone else told her storyand she wanted the right to
tell her own story and I thinkthere could be a line of people
(19:55):
who want to tell your narrativeto hide the truth.
But in Mariska's case, she didan entire investigation to get
the truth behind her family'ssecrets, to know her own
identity, and it ripped herapart for a little while.
It broke her, but she wanted toknow who she was.
And you know, Denise, you wrotea book about your own narrative
(20:17):
.
Did that help you find out whoyou were?
Speaker 2 (20:20):
It definitely helped me start the path.
It definitely helped me to seethat story that I've rewritten
for myself, because I wasfinally able to share what I
kept secret as far as what washappening at home, at home.
(20:41):
So my book, the 32nd Momentsand the Women who Raised Me, was
about the teachers who,unbeknownst to them, raised me
because at home I was facingthese abuse, this abuse, and I
was kept.
I was to keep secrets, and sothat did help me to notice that
I wasn't the story that waswritten for me.
I've become the story I'vewritten for myself.
(21:02):
So, yeah, it started on theright path and, as I said, I'm
still learning secrets.
Maybe that'll be another book,I don't know.
And, as you said, with hertelling her own story, there are
so many stories about me outthere.
It depends on who's telling itInteresting, and this for me is
(21:27):
I'm going to tell my story.
I'm still learning about who Iam.
I just want to put this outthere too, as I've written the
book and more people have readit that knew me growing up.
That's where I've learned themost, because all of a sudden,
the answers or the secrets thatthey were keeping have been
(21:49):
exposed to me, and I think youalso have to think about who the
story's coming from.
Are they reliable sources?
Do you feel like they are?
But I had was the daughter of acouple, an older couple, who
used to babysit me.
You know, do you know how yougot there?
And I'm like, yeah, you babysatme or they babysat me.
(22:10):
She said, no, the authoritiesbrought you.
The secret continued because Ifound out and I know I'm sharing
right here, so I hope you don'tmind my mother was 16 when she
had me.
My father was 18.
He wasn't in the picture.
Within.
My family found out as an adultthat my grandmother had had a
child at a wedlock and she wasforced to give this child up.
(22:33):
Just found this out about sevenyears ago, learning that and
then coming and hearing this newstory as well.
As she was very promiscuous andthe people that she was
promiscuous with she can getaway with anything, especially
with the system, so I wasdefinitely a pawn in it and so
(22:54):
those secrets are now coming outand I'm learning this and
there's the identity crisis.
You're like what is going on?
So when, when one secret istold, there is a flutter of all
the things?
I just learned some stuff,probably in the last two months,
that I was like are you kiddingme?
So then it makes you questioneverything about yourself.
(23:16):
I mean, I know my truth, butit's added stuff to this mystery
of who I am.
Speaker 1 (23:22):
It's a mystery you know I just found out things
about me in the last week I'lleven say 48 hours that I did not
know.
And you know I knew pieces,parts of it, but I didn't know
the underlying truth.
Speaker 2 (23:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (23:43):
And fortunately I know a lot more now than I did a
couple days ago.
But it's not easy when thathappens, and I loved your word
when you're a pawn, I mean it'slike we're a human being.
Yeah, upon.
I mean it's like we're a humanbeing.
We were a child and we neededto be recognized for who we are,
(24:06):
for who we were, and we're justnot somebody that could be
pushed under the rug or thestory not be important for you,
for us to really know whatreally happened to us.
I just think that that'shorrific.
And I also took something fromwhat you said about how you know
it really comes down toeverybody's perspective in
(24:26):
writing your story, what we said, when people want to write our
story and it's from how theyknew us.
Like, I know that the teachersin your life would have told
your story one way, and you knowpeople when you were in in your
life would have told your storyone way, and you know people
when you were in the group homewould have told it another way,
and you know your mom would tellit another way and vice versa.
(24:48):
I mean everybody has thesedifferent versions of what worst
things.
(25:08):
My dad died when I was 11, andthe worst thing happened to me,
actually after my dad died, tocompound what happened by the
adults around me, and thosesecrets were kept all the way to
the graves of the people thatwere responsible for it.
With that said, I was goinginto seventh grade and I did not
even know who I was or what wasgoing on and my dad was gone.
There was so much stuff, abusegoing on in my home.
I was very quiet, I was verylike just searching.
(25:32):
I didn't even know how to beanymore.
And I was in seventh grade,going into the worst time of
your life, you know, becausenobody likes middle school,
everybody's already awkward.
Yes, and there I was, you know,and I fast forward many decades
(25:53):
later ran into my scienceteacher and he had me that year,
the year that I was the mostlost in my life.
And I'm like, oh hi, you know,you were my favorite teacher and
all this stuff.
I mean because he really was.
I had him written all over myscience book I have a crush on
so-and-so.
I won't say his name, but hewas really cute, so anyway.
(26:17):
But he says to me back oh yeah,you were the one that was
really troubled.
I remember that about you.
You had a lot of problems.
Speaker 2 (26:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:30):
Hmm, yeah, you know, is that how?
That's what you want to do?
I mean, here we are, decadeslater.
I'm an adult, a very successfuladult.
Okay, I mean, I guess this ismy time to be able to say you
know what?
Speaker 2 (26:47):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:48):
And I made it anyway.
Speaker 2 (26:49):
Yeah, I was.
It's like you want to tell them, yeah, I was troubled, but the
secret is why you know theydon't know why.
Yeah, I was troubled.
Because you don't evenunderstand or know why I was
troubled differently or whatever.
Speaker 1 (27:03):
I think maybe I might have shared with him and I
don't even know, because I don'treally share that much for just
(27:28):
anything.
I mean, we do the podcast.
I always believe in helpingothers and I will tell my story
if I know for sure that it willhelp somebody else.
But I'm not going to tell it,just to tell it, yeah, just to
make you think of me differentlythan you just did.
Speaker 2 (27:41):
Oh, it's so funny that you say that because I
think I spent many years tryingto do that to the people who I
thought looked at me as thattroubled child and I don't even
know for sure that they did, butthey were the ones in middle
school.
I, you know, was the mostdifficult and I was difficult
then, but there were reasons.
I wasn't the troubled childthat you think I was.
(28:02):
I mean I was, but not for thereasons you think I was a pawn
in someone else's story, Doesn'tmatter how much I tell them,
they're going to believe whatthey want to believe and I can't
change that.
So I learn and I'm working onaccepting that and saying you
know what you're missing out onwho I am today.
Speaker 1 (28:20):
I spent years because , because of the secrets and
because of the problems that Ihad when I was a kid, I didn't
go the great, a great direction.
Speaker 2 (28:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (28:29):
You know, and I got lost.
I made a lot of really badchoices.
I ended up with wrong people.
I ended up having more abuse inmy younger years and you know,
that's what taught me how to bedifferent and how to look for
different.
I can't even believe I was thatperson back then, but you know,
it's just really sad that eventhen people tried to write my
(28:53):
narrative and if I could havetold them what had happened up
to this point and I was just.
You know, sometimes people arejust seeking and they're just
looking to find their own selves.
I was as broken as could be and,yes, I handled it badly the
(29:15):
first 20, almost 30 years of mylife.
I handled it horribly, but Ialso didn't have a lot of
direction and the people thatraised me didn't give me the
direction that I needed.
I did not have those parentsaround me to help me, tell me
the right way to go.
They just I didn't and theymade the bad choices.
They were the ones that.
(29:36):
How can you look to people whomade so many bad choices and ask
them for help?
You can't do that.
I mean, that adds a wholenother layer of problem, which
comes down to trust.
You know, there are so manyparts to finding out the depths
of a lie or a secret, and whatwe're talking about here is
(29:57):
grief, the loss of what wethought was the truth, and there
are so many rippling effects.
When a secret is uncovered andthe identity within yourself is
changed.
It can tear us apart, it cantear families apart, and the
other thing that happens, whichwe just kind of touched on, is
(30:19):
that trust is lost.
Trust and when you're taught notto trust your own memories, I
think that was the biggest lossfor me as a child.
I lost my dad.
I lost my mom because of thesecrets and the lies that she
kept.
I lost trust and I lost myadult relationships and I was a
(30:43):
small child.
I learned young not to trustanyone and I think the biggest
thing I lost was the loss oftrust, and it wasn't my dad and
it was my dad, but it led to theworst losses and I stopped
(31:03):
believing who my mom was.
I stopped believing what shetold me as a pretty young kid
and I no longer believed what Isaw around me.
What was was doubted.
The loss of innocence was gone,and that's huge it is.
It is we.
Loss of innocence was gone andthat's huge.
Speaker 2 (31:20):
It is.
It is.
We talked about grief just now,for my grief, when I learned of
a secret recently.
My mother was a drug addict.
I was in kinship care with mygrandmother.
I found out that my fathernever knew where I was, that I
wasn't in kinship.
He didn't know who had custodyof me.
That was a big secret even tohim.
(31:42):
But finding out the control thatshe had, the grief that was
there was I could have had adifferent life if she didn't
have control.
So therefore, could the systemhave worked for me?
We all know the system's brokenlike, yeah, but in my mind, in
(32:03):
my mind was I had to grieve thefact that I could have had
something.
You know, I believed for a longtime that I didn't deserve it
or it just was never meant forme.
It wasn't meant for me.
But then to find out thatsecret, that no, she manipulated
the system.
And then when you talk abouttrust, that's the hard part,
(32:26):
because when you're learningsecrets, who can you trust?
Who's trustworthy?
Yeah, it's hard to know who youare when there are questions
that linger.
But somebody has the truth tothat, somebody has the answer to
that.
And for me, recently I was toldsomeone had passed away a
(32:47):
couple years ago.
Who has answers to some of myquestions?
But they told me he died and hedidn't.
He just doesn't want to befound and the people don't want
to tell me.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (32:58):
Oh my gosh.
Speaker 2 (33:01):
So there you go.
There's a secret out there thatthere's an answer to it and
everybody is avoiding to tell me.
And I'm 50 years old, I'm likeOK, I think I'm old enough now,
no matter how traumatic it was,because I've gone through trauma
.
I have been through trauma.
I have out.
You know, I've lived throughthings people said I never
should have.
How horrific can it be ifthey're still keeping that a
(33:23):
secret?
Speaker 1 (33:25):
Oh my gosh, I don't even know what I would do with
that and the secret that they'rekeeping.
How much bigger could it bethan everything that you already
know?
Speaker 2 (33:33):
Yeah, exactly that was a shocker to get Something I
got to work through.
Speaker 1 (33:40):
There was something that you said about that you
trust yourself.
I think that there's anotherlayer to that, because I think
when and I know this personallywhen someone tells you something
that didn't happen when youactually saw it with your eyes,
it's crazy making and it reallydoes make you doubt yourself.
It's like all of a suddenyou're like wait a second and
(34:01):
you don't trust your own self.
Now that's the ultimate loss.
I think too, you know, when youcan't even trust yourself and
silence creates fear, and that'san inner child killer.
Speaker 2 (34:18):
It is, and even it doesn't matter how old you are
when you have faced abuse, andthen you see that abuser or you
see that somebody else and youknow that they're telling
somebody else a different story.
And there's a part of me that,okay, I just had this happen to
me and I'm just going to divulgeit.
My father's wife and I had adisagreement on a lot of things
(34:43):
and when I went to talk to herabout a small thing that I
thought was what we were goingto discuss from two years ago,
she, brought up 30 years ago,continued to tell me these
things that she was the martyrand I wasn't.
And I tell you, when youquestion yourself, is you know
she called me a drama queen?
When somebody else looks at youand it's almost as if like it
(35:10):
didn't happen and what it didwas.
It triggered me back to that 14year old who was trying to be
believed.
And so you start to questionyourself again.
You know the truth, you knowwhat happened.
There's no like, oh, did I makethat story up?
You know that that happened toyou.
But when somebody else comes inand ripples that, you start to
(35:33):
question things all over againand it's almost like you have to
go back through that process ofwho am I now?
Like this is me.
I'm not that story that peoplewere still making of me.
The identity gets shaken alittle bit.
Speaker 1 (35:50):
Yeah, yeah, I mean, what about the loss of identity
which we have touched onthroughout, you know, different
times of this podcast?
When the truth unravels us, theones that fracture who we are,
which we're talking about here,the ones that twist your
foundation and make you questioneverything, and those secrets
really matter, I don't care whatanybody says.
(36:12):
They really matter.
Mariska was made to think shewas one thing, but she wasn't,
and I've had those deep uphirdsand I've had lies so deep I
didn't know who I was.
And you know what I think caneven be worse is when the people
holding the truth, or the oneouting the truth to you, telling
(36:32):
you they really possiblybecause this happened to me they
dropped a bomb and they walkedout the door, basically without
a care in the world that theyhad just left me, as if a
tornado had just burst my worldand I couldn't even breathe and
they didn't even care.
Speaker 2 (36:50):
Yeah, yep, I've had this happen again, like most
recently, and it was nothing tothem Like oh yeah, by the way,
but to me it was like hold on,this is just like another layer,
like wait, stop, I've got toprocess it.
When I learned some of thesesecrets that were being held
(37:11):
from me and then they told me itwas really a whirlwind.
It was really a whirlwind,especially the you know, the one
girl who said you know, yeah,like my parents will say, foster
you.
And she was like they reallytried to keep you.
And I'm like stop.
(37:33):
And then she disappeared, sheghosted me.
I haven't been able to, butyou're I'm left with that and
you're like how do I evenprocess it?
It's a whole processing thingwhen you're trying to take in
such a huge secret.
Speaker 1 (37:43):
It's a whole different layer, when the person
who had been keeping thissecret, they've been holding it
and then they just drop it andthey're just like see ya, it's
not a big deal to me, it can bevery devastating to the other
person.
See ya, it's not a big deal tome, it can be very devastating
to the other person.
Speaker 2 (38:02):
Yeah, I've been trying to process some of the
things that I've learned overthe last month and it's been
difficult.
It's been, and I'm in therapy,thank God, because I don't know
that I would have managedthrough some of it.
I mean, I'm still processing itall.
When you grow up with thesesecrets, they identified you
Like you're the pawn in thestory.
Right, I'm a pawn in theirstory and so, however, I fit
(38:26):
into their story within thesesecrets and within these things.
That's who I've been, but I'mnot you know.
So yeah, it's devastatingabsolutely when silence becomes
your survival.
It's devastating absolutely.
Speaker 1 (38:37):
When silence becomes your survival, there is
something wrong.
And to our listeners, is therea story in your family that's
gone untold?
Are there pieces of yourselfyou've only recently discovered?
Whatever you find beneath thesurface, let me tell you this it
doesn't make you less.
Don't let their shame becomeyours.
(38:59):
Once something is hidden, itbecomes big, and don't let it be
the weight that you carry.
And I just had recently, like Isaid, something told me and I'm
not really sure what I'm goingto do with it.
Yet I don't know what I'm goingto do with it, and that's okay,
and I think that we need timeto sit in it.
(39:22):
Sometimes, some way, I needtime to process, to figure it
out, and I'm a verycompartmentalized person and I
have this and this and this, youknow, and it's really been good
for me, it's really helped meget to my next day to be that
joyful person, to be that personthat can hear something earth
(39:42):
shattering, and then put thatdown and go help my kids do what
they need, and that's what I'vehad to do.
Yeah, and people have said tome oh my gosh, you know how.
Well, I think that that'sreally important how.
And you know, and we're not allmade that way.
We're not all made.
(40:02):
We're not all able to be able toput it down, to put that secret
down, that bomb that justsomebody important I mean it can
really consume us, but it'salso really important for it not
(40:24):
to, and for us to go still, doour things, but come back,
revisit, okay, you know, sit init for a little bit and go live
sitting in it for a little bitbecause I'm telling you it will
continue to grow and change anddo what it needs to while we're
living, and I think that that'sreally important.
Speaker 2 (40:48):
Yeah, when you, so for me I'm opposite.
I'm opposite.
I really kind of it consumed meand it was really hard for me
to take that next step Like Ididn't.
It was almost like you'rewalking and all of a sudden you
hit a curb and you can't evenfigure out how to get your foot
up on the curb to even walkfurther.
And so that happens.
(41:09):
It definitely happens Again.
I'm a big opponent for therapybecause I know, I know, I think
I would have been still stuck,and I still am.
I mean, like I said, you know,50 years old and I'm learning
all these things that peopleknew and no one told me.
And so I have two kids.
Obviously they're older, but Ihave a special needs son, and so
(41:29):
his life doesn't stop becauseI'm thrown a shell.
But at the same point I'mnavigating that being a parent
and holding on to the weight ofthese secrets that were just
revealed to me.
But you're right, you can'tlive in them.
This is something for me.
I'm so tired of the secrets,I'm so tired of not letting
(41:53):
other people see who I ambecause of the things that
happened to me.
Obviously, we don't alwaysdivulge everything, but when we
keep the secrets that were eventold to us like it's this,
everything is a secret.
We're then not authenticallyourselves.
You know, like I said, like Ididn't know the reason why my
father wasn't allowed near me.
(42:14):
Say this my father was a drugaddict as well.
It's glad you know it was athing that he should not have
been near me.
Nobody ever told me why.
Nobody said he was beingthreatened, nobody would ever.
But it's also one of thosethings where you know I'm like,
oh my God, like did that reallyhappen?
You're almost shocked.
The family secrets we havefamily secrets that didn't just
(42:36):
affect me, but I've been theonly one to say, hey, you know
what that happened, thathappened.
And so there's also, whenyou're able to do that, it's a
strength.
It's scary, it's absolutelyscary and overwhelming to not
hold on to your secrets.
But yeah, it's hard whensomebody throws the bombshell
(42:59):
and you still have to live life.
Speaker 1 (43:05):
Yeah, there were a couple big ones and I, you know,
I want to tell you something.
If you are still carrying,those secrets.
Decades later, it's time to putthem down, and the emotional
toll of silence is heavy and itchips away at your sense of
truth, your identity andsometimes even your sanity, as
you carry what was never meantto be yours anyway.
(43:27):
And you know, I want to saythis because I believe, and I'm
going to tell you why, because,as I mentioned earlier, I have
five kids, all adopted, and Iwas adopted and I made a vow no
secrets is knowing the truth inage-appropriate ways.
(43:50):
Like I said, I didn't wantanything to be hidden and it's
kind of funny because my son,even now, at eight years old,
still asks what was it like whenI was in your belly?
And he knows that he wasadopted, he knows who his
biological mom is, he knows allof it, but it's really important
(44:13):
to him for me to be that personthat carried him.
I don't know why it just is,and so we kind of pretend with
the facts at hand.
And he absolutely knows, andI'll say that to him and he'll
say I know, but I just want todo this.
I'll say that to him and he'llsay I know, but I just want to
(44:35):
do this, and that's fine.
You know, it's the narrativethat he wants to play out and
for some reason it's reallyimportant to him.
And I had to dig for the truth.
I had to and I don't want mykids to have to dig for the
truth and some things, like wesaid, they were taken to their
graves and other things wereouted in a way that it was wrong
(44:57):
.
The way that they were outedand that kind of control over
someone else's truth, it's notprotection when somebody goes to
their grave with it, that'serasure.
Speaker 2 (45:11):
Yeah, I have to say this, when you were talking
about you know, never keepingsecrets from your kids.
I kept my childhood a secretfrom my husband of course my
kids.
My son has autism, so he'd neverknow.
But I kept my childhood asecret from friends not very
close.
I mean.
My close friends are a few thatknew, but everybody else I kept
(45:32):
a secret from friends not veryclose.
I mean my close friends are afew that knew, but everybody
else I kept a secret from.
I kept a secret from my husbandbecause I didn't want him to
see me as the past.
I wanted him to see me as thepresent.
And I kept the secret from myyou know daughter.
Just because there is that partof shame when you've had so
many traumatic things happen toyou, you're always keeping a
(45:54):
secret.
And I want to say that I didn'tlie, I just never said anything
.
And so, as I've, she's 21 now.
My husband does know thingshappen to me.
He chooses that he doesn't wantto know specific because it's
hard for him.
But he knows now that, yeah, Ididn't have a.
I mean, he had an idea.
(46:15):
He's never liked my family whenthey were in our lives.
But my daughter it'sinteresting because, as she has
known now the truths, she saidsomething to a friend of mine
she's like my mom's, strongerthan I ever thought she was, and
so there's something in thatbecause it also when you are
(46:36):
able to be you and say, yeah,these things happen to me, or be
able to tell some of thesecrets, it's amazing.
My daughter always kept saying,oh, you're so strong, you're so
strong.
And then when she heard some ofthe things and I didn't tell
her till she was well, actuallythis year is when she found out
(46:57):
and like it's amazing becausethey see you in a you know
already as this, I guess, thesuperhero.
I like to think that that'swhat she always thought me of
and now I'm an extra superhero.
Speaker 1 (47:10):
That's cool.
Speaker 2 (47:10):
That's awesome, yeah, but it's.
That's the thing too.
It's like, you know, how do you?
You don't want her to ever haveto keep secrets about anything,
and we've we've raised our kidsthat way.
You know, my mother calledsocial services on me and when
they came, I said, you know tomy kids well, my daughter, I'm
like there's nothing for you tohide.
You tell everything, answereverything.
(47:31):
There are no secrets.
I remember saying that thereare no secrets.
Speaker 1 (47:37):
Yeah, see, that's really important.
And I was told don't tell, nomatter what, don't tell.
Yeah me too, and we deserve theright to grieve, we deserve the
right for that history to be apart of us and we deserve for it
to shape us.
You know, moving forward, and Ican tell you you don't want to
(47:58):
be on your deathbed like my momwas when she was dying and in
hospice and made some reallyhorrible choices to keep secrets
hidden, secret's hidden, and Idid find out later and you know
I don't want to be that personwhere I'm actually having
somebody else to go in my houseand grab things that I need to
(48:20):
hide so nobody can find out, soI can take it to my grave and
fortunately somebody did tell methat they did that and I still
don't know what was on thosepapers.
And I I have an idea, yeah, butyou know it isn't important.
Maybe and maybe not, maybemaybe not.
(48:42):
You know, I mean that's aquestion.
Is it going to change?
When I found out the dad that Ihad thought was my dad all
those years, in a second on aphone call, found out he wasn't.
Does that change me?
I?
don't know and I don't think Ishould let it change me because
(49:14):
somebody decided to drop a bomb.
I'm still me.
I'm still who I am.
I may never know what's onthose papers, I may never know
which I did because of DNA andyou know all that cool stuff.
And my brother came up inAncestry, dna or whatever yeah,
ancestrycom, and we were soclosely matched.
(49:40):
It was crazy how close we werematched and he doesn't look far
from me and we never met.
We chose not to.
Well, he did, really, butthat's okay.
Is it going to change mebecause we didn't meet?
Because the history behind usis too hard for us to come
(50:02):
together and it has nothing todo with either one of us.
It has to do with the decisionsthat were made before us in the
other generation, and that'sokay.
I got to meet some people on mydad's side and the things that
I found out about him was ahorrible person.
He was a horrible person, areally, really bad man.
(50:24):
Does that change me?
No, it doesn't change me.
It actually makes me betterbecause, in spite of all of
those things, look at who I amand look at what I've become,
and that's what this podcast hasalways been about.
This is what the platform isalways about.
It doesn't matter what'shappened to you or what people
(50:45):
have done to you.
You still have the right to bewho you are and not allow it to.
You know, get inside.
You know.
That's just.
I'm just putting that out therebecause it's been.
Really, those kinds of thingscan be really hard.
Are secrets protecting or arethey a prison?
What secrets shaped you, evenif you didn't know it at the
(51:06):
time?
Were you carrying secretsbefore you even understood what
you were carrying?
Carrying secrets before youeven understood what you were
carrying?
When fear becomes the languagethat you speak and survival
becomes your only mode of living, grief is not just losing
people.
It's about losing illusions ofwho you are, of everything about
you.
To anyone carrying the weightof a family secret, especially
(51:28):
one that was never yours to keep, we see you.
To those still navigating thegrief of learning the truth late
, we hear you To the oneswondering if they should ask or
let it go.
You get to choose.
Your healing is valid, howeverit unfolds.
And to anyone afraid thattelling the truth will break
something.
(51:48):
Maybe it will, but maybe thatthing needed to break so you
could finally breathe.
Speaker 2 (51:57):
Oh my gosh.
Yes, yes.
One of the things and I'llrespect my father for this is
that he said you have no ideathe cycles that you have managed
to break despite all thesecrets that were kept.
I appreciate that, despite thesecrets, I have been able to
(52:19):
break all these generationalcurses, if you will, or cycles
of abuse or whatever it is.
So even though you have secrets, like you said, it doesn't
change who you are.
Maybe it makes you a little bitstronger, you know?
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (52:34):
I think so.
It's what you do with it.
You know, I knew that all thepieces weren't there.
I've always known that there'sbeen secrets.
My family was all about secrets.
Oh yeah, I was made to keepthem as well and I've decided to
be different and I've decidednot to tell secrets and I want
(52:54):
the freedom I mean there is somuch.
It is a prison If you choose tolive, and I know people that
they live by their lies andtheir secrets.
Yeah, they are constantlytrying to cover up and trying to
remember their lies and their,you know.
Speaker 2 (53:14):
They catch up with you.
Yeah, it catches up with you.
You can't keep the storystraight.
If it's a lie, it's going toconstantly change.
If it's the truth, it stays thesame.
Speaker 1 (53:23):
No matter how hard it is.
I think you just need to behonest, and if you're honest
from the very beginning, itisn't something that has
snowballed and gotten bigger andbigger through the years and
that you finally need to tell.
You know, just be honest fromthe very beginning, and I know
that there's lots of people thatit's too late because the
(53:43):
secrets have been kept and youknow, maybe it's just time to
tell it.
Speaker 2 (53:47):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (53:48):
Just sit the person down and let them know.
This is what I did.
It would have been really niceif my mom would have said, my
adopted mom would have said tome I did this.
Speaker 2 (53:59):
And.
Speaker 1 (53:59):
I'm sorry and I'm sorry.
Do you know what that wouldhave done?
I mean, I didn't hold her handwhen she passed away because
there was so much between us,there was so much hurt between
us, and I know I'm autistic andI know that I don't touch people
anyway, but I had that kind ofrelationship with her that I
really never touched her and Ireally believe that it had to do
(54:21):
with the way she handledeverything after my dad passed
away and I wasn't included inthe story, the narrative of what
was going on behind the scenes,and I was told something
different.
And that's not okay, no, justnot.
No.
And so it does affect you.
And maybe I would have held herhand at the end, maybe it
(54:41):
wouldn't have been a nurse thatheld her hand at the end instead
of me, and I just watched her.
And then, as I walked out thedoor and then I did have a
balloon that had been attachedto her bed and I was with one of
my kids she was pretty young atthe time and she decided to
stay with me while she waspassing away.
(55:02):
After she passed away, mydaughter and I we walked out, we
got in the car.
I had the balloon that wasattached to my mom's bed and I
got out to get gas.
And I am not kidding you, theballoon was secured in that car.
It was secured, it wasn'tgetting out.
It forced its way into thefront and out of the car and it
(55:26):
just went up.
Speaker 2 (55:29):
And it took all of the struggles with it from you
like was it a release?
Speaker 1 (55:35):
my daughter and I just went because it was not a
normal.
Okay, the ball, the balloonflew out of the car because we
opened the door.
It wasn't like that.
Yeah, it was something else.
It it was so strange and then Ihad to get.
I instantly went and I got thefaith and the dove releasing,
(56:02):
because that's what I felt.
Yeah, I have been able to be meand be more of who I am and
live free since she passed away,and you and I have talked about
this before.
Yeah, we have, yeah, and it'sreally a shame that when even
the secrets go down intosomebody's grave and you're
never even going to know theanswers, you get to the point
(56:23):
where it's okay because I canfinally live.
Speaker 2 (56:26):
Yeah, and, like I said, I'm a seeker, I like to.
I want the truths to be built,but at the same point, like you
said, if you have somebody whotook them with them, you have to
come to the accept that you'renot going to know that truth.
Yeah, I had to let it go.
(56:47):
There's some of us who I don'tknow.
I just want to know.
I just want to complete myself.
That's how I always felt.
If I just complete myself withwhatever I know, there's many
secrets still out there and it'snot going to just because a
puzzle gets complete, it doesn'tmean it tells the whole story.
Speaker 1 (57:04):
No, and you know, and that's really important, and we
can keep trying to, like I didthe puzzle analogy earlier.
I mean you throw another pieceon there and it changes the
whole story of the puzzle.
What story do we want?
And that's really up to us.
Do I want to take in whatsomebody told me about my dad,
(57:26):
what somebody told me about mybiological mom and I have lots
of stuff about that and a lot ofother people in my life or do I
just want to be who I am, meright now?
Are those things important?
And I think that those are allthings that you have to answer
for yourself.
But I want to say this toeverybody out there right now
you know, everybody 97 percent,it said in the stats had lived
(57:50):
with secrets.
Every single family out statshad lived with secrets.
Every single family out therejust about has had secrets.
I can't believe that there's 3%of families that don't have any
secrets.
I mean that's really amazing tome.
So anyway, I was not in that 3%.
But you know, there's purpose inour pain and there is hope in
our journey, and that's what wesay every single time that we do
(58:11):
Real Talk with Tina and Anne,and I want to thank you, denise,
for being here today.
This has really meant the worldto me to have this discussion,
because a lot of things haveunfolded in the last 48 hours of
my life and I've beeninterviewing a lot of people and
I said you know what?
Let's just do this.
You and I can just have aregular conversation, and this
has really been, I want to say,fun, but it's been intriguing
(58:36):
and it's been eye-opening andhopefully revealing the secrets
and hopefully, you know, wedidn't open up too many
Pandora's boxes.
I'm not really sure, but youknow, I want it to be a positive
thing.
I want this to be positivegrowth for everybody out there
as you're dealing with whateversecrets come your way.
(58:57):
So thank you so much again forlistening and we will see you
next time.
Bye.
Welcome to Real Talk with Tina and Anne.
I am Anne and I'm Denise.
Well, for all of you that mightnot remember Denise, this is
Denise Bard.
She used to be a regular and Iam so glad to have her back on.
I'm very excited because thisis an episode and a half.
I recently watched the MariskaHargitay documentary and it
(00:32):
touched me on so many levels.
If you have not watched it myMom, jane, a 2024 HBO
documentary directed by MariskaHargitay.
The movie depicts herrelationship with her family,
especially her mom, who was JaneMansfield, a very famous
Hollywood iconic actress fromthe 50s and 60s, and she
(00:54):
tragically died in a caraccident with all three of her
kids in the backseat, andMariska was one of them and she
was only three at the time.
I'm not giving anything awayfrom the movie.
This is where actually thestory begins.
Mariska in this movie reallyseeks to understand her mom and
who she really was, outside ofthe Hollywood version of her,
(01:16):
and the family secrets thatshaped Mariska's identity.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
I would recommend this to everybody.
Have you seen it, denise, that?
But I did get to watch some ofthe clips and it is it's like
I've been waiting for it to comeout on more platforms so I
could see the whole thing,because it really does draw you
in.
Speaker 1 (01:52):
It does and I plan on watching it again.
I mean it really it spoke to meon so many levels and I don't
like to watch really hardstories where it makes me feel
too much.
You know.
I mean, I normally just walkaway, turn the TV off if I start
feeling something.
I don't know why I'm like that,but sometimes they just hit too
(02:14):
deep and I can't watch.
But this one I had to watchfrom beginning to end and will
probably, like I said, watch itagain because it's my girl, you
know, it's Mariska, and thereare a few celebrities where I
feel like I know them andthey're my friend and she's one
of those people.
And I've been watching SVU foryears and I watch it because I
relate and I feel like she isthat person who validates me and
(02:38):
she helps us feel heard and shehelps us feel believed and I
think somebody who helps giveyou that voice is one of the
most important things that youcan do for somebody.
Speaker 2 (02:50):
Yeah, I think that's right.
She is relatable, especiallylike if you've been in positions
of the keeping secrets.
It's as if you're talking to adear friend or listening to a
friend.
You might not have the samestory, but there's something
about it that you know, and I'vealways said this we might not
share the same story, butthere's such a relatable thing
(03:12):
and when you do, it almost opensyou up and makes those fears of
containment, I don't want tosay disappear, but allows you to
be more vulnerable because youhave somebody else across from
you or like she is, that youknow.
Wow, you know she's vulnerable.
I feel that you know yeah itgives you permission.
(03:34):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (03:36):
She was sexually assaulted and they do talk about
that in the movie and it alsomakes me, helps me, feel closer
to her.
Knowing that about her.
It helps me understand hermission on SBU and the movement
Joyful Heart Foundation forsurvivors of sexual assault,
domestic violence and childabuse.
Everything resonated with meduring this movie, but the part
(04:00):
that hit me in the gut, I think,was how the family secrets were
woven throughout the entiremovie.
And I think one of the biggestkillers of relationships is
secrets and in this case, familysecrets, and the things we
don't talk about, you know, thethings that sit in the corners
of our family history,collecting dust and shaping us
(04:23):
years after they happened, thething that we still don't talk
about with some of our familybecause they still act like that
didn't happen.
And I asked Denise because shehas had such a special place on
the podcast and understands whatI'm talking about.
Speaker 2 (04:39):
Absolutely.
Yeah, I grew up where and thesecrets, especially now, is you
know they were secrets to me,but found out that they weren't
such secret after all becauseother people knew of them.
So it it changes the game whenthey're they're known by other
people.
So are they really a secret?
Speaker 1 (05:00):
A secret to you.
Mm hmm, I mean that's not OK.
That means that there were morethan one people that were.
They were keeping this secretto you.
Mm-hmm, I mean that's not okay.
That means that there were morethan one people that were.
They were keeping this secretfrom you and it was intentional
that they were all collectivelyin on something against you.
Secret's the kind where yougrow up by adults long ago, like
(05:28):
you said, behind closed doorsand the truth was kept from you,
regardless of their reason.
I mean, why do you thinksecrets are kept from kids or
other people in the family?
Speaker 2 (05:38):
I think that there's a number of things.
I think they're kept because itexposes those people to who
they really are.
In my case there was a lot ofabuse.
You don't want anybody else onthe outside.
I always call it a facade Isoutside.
Well, I had to keep the secretson the inside.
My grandmother would always saynobody needs to know what goes
(06:00):
on behind these doors, it'sfamily related, it has nothing.
So you keep these facades onand a lot of people look at you
and have no idea.
They think this is great orwhatever.
But the truth is somethingdifferent on the inside and
those people who are making youkeep those secrets don't want
anybody to know that becausethey are viewed in a different
(06:21):
light.
You know, in public they arenot what they are in private.
So I feel like a lot of timesthere's the whole adoption thing
, and I'm not personally adoptedso I don't know that I'd ever
be able to speak on it.
I know a lot of times parentschoose to not tell their child
either at all, which I don'tknow.
I'm not sure that I would agreeupon doing that, but I don't
(06:45):
live in someone's life wherethey choose to keep it until a
certain age where they feel likethe child would understand.
Speaker 1 (06:53):
Adoption is a really big one, you know.
I mean I was adopted and a lotof secrets were kept and all
five of my kids are adopted andI'll talk more about that later.
All five of my kids are adoptedand I'll talk more about that
later.
But I really do want toemphasize that I wanted the
truth to be out.
I wanted them to know ageappropriate and my kids have
always known that they wereadopted.
(07:14):
I've never kept that from themand I've also let them know
their stories and you know, ifsomebody doesn't tell them, then
somebody else is going to tellthem and they're going to
rewrite the story for them and Ihonestly think that they should
hear the truth as it is, as itreally is.
And if they find out latersomething so horrific or
(07:49):
identity changing I guess thatthen that changes their
relationship with you, becauseyou weren't honest.
Yeah, and I never wanted tokeep things from my kids.
I always let them know from theget-go who they were with the
information that I had.
You know Right.
According to the Journal ofFamily Psychology, family
secrets are common, with up to97% of families keeping some
type of secret.
Research shows that secretsrelated to identity, trauma or
(08:12):
betrayal can have the mostdamaging psychological effects,
often leading to anxiety,depression and strained
relationships, which absolutelyA study by psychologists and I
know I'm not going to say thisright, but Vangelisti and
Coghlan found that secrecywithin families often leads to
feelings of shame, confusion anddistrust, especially in
(08:37):
children.
Why are these secrets kept,like you were trying to talk
about?
Sometimes they're meant toprotect, like you said, of
themselves, that person.
Other times they're aboutavoiding shame or deflecting
guilt.
So often the silence is aboutprotecting the image of the very
person who doesn't want you toknow what they did to you or to
(09:01):
someone else in the family.
But no matter the reason, theimpact is real and sometimes,
especially if it is a child, thesecret is kept so the child is
not hurt, like in Mariska's case.
Do you think, as a child grows,that they should know when a
secret has to do with them?
Speaker 2 (09:20):
I can only talk on personal experience For me, as
I'm 50 years old now, I amcontinuing to learn some of the
secrets that even I didn't knowexist, and so I think that some
of the secrets that I had orthat were kept from me were
traumatic.
However, I remember bits andpieces, and so I never get to
(09:45):
put the story together and putclosure to it, because there are
still secrets being kept, nomatter what they are.
I don't know the appropriateage, you know.
I think it depends on thesecret.
I guess this is such a tricky,tricky situation, right?
If you're for me, you know itwas traumatic.
What happened to me, I don'tthink anybody was going to tell
(10:06):
me at that age, even thoughthere were a lot of people who
knew, right, they didn'tunderstand that I understood so
much.
So now, in my 50s, you know,I'm still understanding what it
was.
But as I'm older now, I'mfrustrated because that part of
the secret has still been keptand I'm still back there.
(10:28):
It's almost like you're stuckin that time.
Speaker 1 (10:31):
When those secrets touch the very foundation of who
you are, they are never small,never, no matter how small you
think that they are.
Honestly, I think oncesomething becomes a secret, it's
no longer small.
It instantly becomes big, itinstantly becomes something.
And maybe it wouldn't have ifit would have been in the open.
Speaker 2 (10:52):
Yeah, there's an emotional toll of silence.
Not all secrets are meant to bemalicious, but when they affect
your identity, your safety,your story, they become harmful.
But when they affect youridentity, your safety, your
story, they become harmful.
Secrets can lead to emotionalfragmentation, where your sense
of self is splintered byhalf-truth, causing you to know
(11:13):
or not know what is true andwhat is not true or what is not
true.
They can create emotionalisolation too, especially for
children who feel they'recarrying the weight of family
shame and boy do I know that.
And most importantly, secretscan be inherited, not just
events, but the silence, theshame, the survival behavior.
(11:34):
Yeah, there's all of that andthen some.
Speaker 1 (11:36):
For me personally, yeah, I want to touch on a
couple of these.
I can relate with the emotionalisolation.
I was that kid who carried theweight of a family secret and I
was told to hold it in and I wasnot allowed to tell it affected
me to my core and affected myrelationship with the person
until they died and I was neverable to let it go.
(12:00):
I've often asked the questionif I forgave that person,
because I know forgiveness is soimportant and I'm a Christian
and I know that that's important.
That's not a question that Ieven think that I can answer for
some reason, and I'm not surewhy.
But what happens when you arethat kid that is told to keep a
(12:22):
secret, or an adult who wasafraid to tell something because
of fear is the manipulator andsurvival is the motivation.
Speaker 2 (12:31):
I always call fear a prison.
You are imprisoned witheverything that is kept secret
because it is the fear I wouldbe told all the time.
For me it was again we don'ttell people what happens behind
closed doors.
Or the fear to keep the secretwas if you tell someone, you're
going to get hurt.
We need to keep this secret.
(12:52):
You don't want them to laugh atyou.
You don't want them to tell youyou're crazy.
You don't want it was alwayssomething that I was told would
happen to me if I told thesecret.
It's as if you know when youhave childhood abuse, especially
sexual abuse, you know they'retold to keep quiet because
(13:13):
somebody else is going to gethurt if you say something.
So the manipulation is there toscare you that if you say
something, somebody else isgoing to get hurt.
And again, like survival, likeI had to keep secrets.
How am I going to be able tosurvive if I didn't?
Those fears, the threats ofkeeping secrets, is what really
(13:40):
silences you in that prison.
But it's something that youtake with you as you get older,
like as I'm older.
Now I'm like I don't know ifI'm going to ever find the
answers to some of those secretsand this emotional toll from
you know, inherited and family.
It's a cycle.
I didn't know that otherfamilies weren't like that.
Speaker 1 (14:00):
Well, the events normally are bad enough, yeah,
but then secrets add an extralayer to everything.
It just makes it so much worse.
And the other part of this iswhat you talked about with
secrets being inherited.
I can say that for you know.
A long time I held on to thesecrets that were done before me
(14:22):
and I felt the power behindthem until family members passed
away.
And then I felt, and after theypassed away I felt free to say
them or at least allow them tobe a little bit more out in the
open, and I even got a dubtattooed on my arm after my mom
died.
I'll just say it.
(14:44):
I mean, it was my mom who kepta lot of the secrets, and my
adopted mom.
After my dad died, some prettyhorrific things happened in my
family when I was 11, 12 yearsold and it honestly could have
be a documentary, and I was madeto believe that I had to take
those secrets to my grave likeshe did.
But then I realized thosesecrets were not mine.
Speaker 2 (15:13):
I didn't do anything wrong, so I was not going to own
their shame.
Yeah, there's so manygenerational secrets in my
family and there was a point inmy life where it was.
I was searching for the answersfor everybody else and I
stopped doing that and I thoughtno, that's you know, that's
your closet to have to figureout.
I can't do that for you, right?
(15:34):
And yeah, it's freeing when you, when you realize that and I'll
say this to my grandmotherpassed away and it was almost
and I hate to say this becausethere were good things, not a
lot, but the abuses that camefrom my grandmother and my
mother were quite different, butit was freeing as well.
(15:56):
I was able to then not be afraidto be me.
I don't know if that you know.
There you go because you were,you know, holding on to
everything and finally, yeah,finally, I can share things and
not worry and have that fear.
You know my mother's stillliving, but we have something in
(16:16):
place where she's not incontact.
There's no contact.
So in our family and everythingthat we have she doesn't exist
and therefore that also, youknow, a judge made sure that
that would never happen again.
So I can't take on their burdenof whatever their secrets were.
Speaker 1 (16:33):
And the shame behind secrets can be devastating and
can affect someone's entireidentity, and I think the
secrets in my family shaped memore than the things that were
out in the open, and that's ahuge thing to say and it's a
hard thing to admit.
Speaker 2 (16:51):
Yeah, you know, when you don't have answers, when
people pass away and they takethat to their grave, so that
piece of me is never going to becomplete and I wasn't adopted.
So I can only say this is whatI would imagine it to be.
When you are a person who isnot with the biological family,
so you're always questioning whoam I?
(17:13):
Right, it's the who am I?
And for me I still have thatquestion.
You know, I didn't know mypaternal, really my paternal
side of my family.
I just reconnected with myfather and I got answers to
secrets that were kept.
This was like a whole otherlevel for me, and so it made me
question even more oh my God,who am I Like?
(17:35):
I know that sounds weird.
Like you said, how is it thatyou don't know your identity?
Right, but it is because themore secrets that come out to
you, you're I don't understand.
It's almost like it alsovalidates all of those feelings
of isolation and validates allthose those emotions of feeling
alone.
It's a lot of validating, too,when secrets come out, as
(17:59):
horrible as they may be and ashard as they may be.
There's a validation in it aswell.
Speaker 1 (18:04):
I mean it's really hard when you believe for a
really long time that you're onething and then all of a sudden
it's like somebody puts anotherpiece in the puzzle but now the
puzzle is completely differentand it will never look the same
again.
So it's like what do you dowith that piece?
That's been missing for areally long time and you've been
(18:25):
okay with it, You've beenliving without it and all of a
sudden now it changes the wholeperspective.
And you touched on somethingelse, which it really is our
perspective of our childhood.
It's how we saw it, it's whatwe remember, what we believe,
and there could be threedifferent kids in the same
family and they remember itcompletely different.
And it's because sometimes, youknow, a parent is different to
(18:49):
every single child.
But sometimes it really doescome down to how each child sees
what happened, and especiallywhen there's dysfunction.
So it's really interesting tosee everybody's different
perspective and the identityshift that happens.
Some people need to know everysingle detail to find peace and
(19:12):
some people don't, and it's okay.
I mean, neither way is wrong.
But when your identity changesin a moment, which has happened
to me quite a few times, itdeserves to be honored.
And when your truth finallysurfaces, it deserves space.
And when your story was shapedwithout your consent, you have
(19:33):
every right to rewrite it onyour own terms.
That is what this movie withMariska, I think, was about and
that's what I would want to askher anyway, if I ever got the
chance.
But someone else told her storyand she wanted the right to
tell her own story and I thinkthere could be a line of people
(19:55):
who want to tell your narrativeto hide the truth.
But in Mariska's case, she didan entire investigation to get
the truth behind her family'ssecrets, to know her own
identity, and it ripped herapart for a little while.
It broke her, but she wanted toknow who she was.
And you know, Denise, you wrotea book about your own narrative
(20:17):
.
Did that help you find out whoyou were?
Speaker 2 (20:20):
It definitely helped me start the path.
It definitely helped me to seethat story that I've rewritten
for myself, because I wasfinally able to share what I
kept secret as far as what washappening at home, at home.
(20:41):
So my book, the 32nd Momentsand the Women who Raised Me, was
about the teachers who,unbeknownst to them, raised me
because at home I was facingthese abuse, this abuse, and I
was kept.
I was to keep secrets, and sothat did help me to notice that
I wasn't the story that waswritten for me.
I've become the story I'vewritten for myself.
(21:02):
So, yeah, it started on theright path and, as I said, I'm
still learning secrets.
Maybe that'll be another book,I don't know.
And, as you said, with hertelling her own story, there are
so many stories about me outthere.
It depends on who's telling itInteresting, and this for me is
(21:27):
I'm going to tell my story.
I'm still learning about who Iam.
I just want to put this outthere too, as I've written the
book and more people have readit that knew me growing up.
That's where I've learned themost, because all of a sudden,
the answers or the secrets thatthey were keeping have been
(21:49):
exposed to me, and I think youalso have to think about who the
story's coming from.
Are they reliable sources?
Do you feel like they are?
But I had was the daughter of acouple, an older couple, who
used to babysit me.
You know, do you know how yougot there?
And I'm like, yeah, you babysatme or they babysat me.
(22:10):
She said, no, the authoritiesbrought you.
The secret continued because Ifound out and I know I'm sharing
right here, so I hope you don'tmind my mother was 16 when she
had me.
My father was 18.
He wasn't in the picture.
Within.
My family found out as an adultthat my grandmother had had a
child at a wedlock and she wasforced to give this child up.
(22:33):
Just found this out about sevenyears ago, learning that and
then coming and hearing this newstory as well.
As she was very promiscuous andthe people that she was
promiscuous with she can getaway with anything, especially
with the system, so I wasdefinitely a pawn in it and so
(22:54):
those secrets are now coming outand I'm learning this and
there's the identity crisis.
You're like what is going on?
So when, when one secret istold, there is a flutter of all
the things?
I just learned some stuff,probably in the last two months,
that I was like are you kiddingme?
So then it makes you questioneverything about yourself.
(23:16):
I mean, I know my truth, butit's added stuff to this mystery
of who I am.
Speaker 1 (23:22):
It's a mystery you know I just found out things
about me in the last week I'lleven say 48 hours that I did not
know.
And you know I knew pieces,parts of it, but I didn't know
the underlying truth.
Speaker 2 (23:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (23:43):
And fortunately I know a lot more now than I did a
couple days ago.
But it's not easy when thathappens, and I loved your word
when you're a pawn, I mean it'slike we're a human being.
Yeah, upon.
I mean it's like we're a humanbeing.
We were a child and we neededto be recognized for who we are,
(24:06):
for who we were, and we're justnot somebody that could be
pushed under the rug or thestory not be important for you,
for us to really know whatreally happened to us.
I just think that that'shorrific.
And I also took something fromwhat you said about how you know
it really comes down toeverybody's perspective in
(24:26):
writing your story, what we said, when people want to write our
story and it's from how theyknew us.
Like, I know that the teachersin your life would have told
your story one way, and you knowpeople when you were in in your
life would have told your storyone way, and you know people
when you were in the group homewould have told it another way,
and you know your mom would tellit another way and vice versa.
(24:48):
I mean everybody has thesedifferent versions of what worst
things.
(25:08):
My dad died when I was 11, andthe worst thing happened to me,
actually after my dad died, tocompound what happened by the
adults around me, and thosesecrets were kept all the way to
the graves of the people thatwere responsible for it.
With that said, I was goinginto seventh grade and I did not
even know who I was or what wasgoing on and my dad was gone.
There was so much stuff, abusegoing on in my home.
I was very quiet, I was verylike just searching.
(25:32):
I didn't even know how to beanymore.
And I was in seventh grade,going into the worst time of
your life, you know, becausenobody likes middle school,
everybody's already awkward.
Yes, and there I was, you know,and I fast forward many decades
(25:53):
later ran into my scienceteacher and he had me that year,
the year that I was the mostlost in my life.
And I'm like, oh hi, you know,you were my favorite teacher and
all this stuff.
I mean because he really was.
I had him written all over myscience book I have a crush on
so-and-so.
I won't say his name, but hewas really cute, so anyway.
(26:17):
But he says to me back oh yeah,you were the one that was
really troubled.
I remember that about you.
You had a lot of problems.
Speaker 2 (26:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:30):
Hmm, yeah, you know, is that how?
That's what you want to do?
I mean, here we are, decadeslater.
I'm an adult, a very successfuladult.
Okay, I mean, I guess this ismy time to be able to say you
know what?
Speaker 2 (26:47):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:48):
And I made it anyway.
Speaker 2 (26:49):
Yeah, I was.
It's like you want to tell them, yeah, I was troubled, but the
secret is why you know theydon't know why.
Yeah, I was troubled.
Because you don't evenunderstand or know why I was
troubled differently or whatever.
Speaker 1 (27:03):
I think maybe I might have shared with him and I
don't even know, because I don'treally share that much for just
(27:28):
anything.
I mean, we do the podcast.
I always believe in helpingothers and I will tell my story
if I know for sure that it willhelp somebody else.
But I'm not going to tell it,just to tell it, yeah, just to
make you think of me differentlythan you just did.
Speaker 2 (27:41):
Oh, it's so funny that you say that because I
think I spent many years tryingto do that to the people who I
thought looked at me as thattroubled child and I don't even
know for sure that they did, butthey were the ones in middle
school.
I, you know, was the mostdifficult and I was difficult
then, but there were reasons.
I wasn't the troubled childthat you think I was.
(28:02):
I mean I was, but not for thereasons you think I was a pawn
in someone else's story, Doesn'tmatter how much I tell them,
they're going to believe whatthey want to believe and I can't
change that.
So I learn and I'm working onaccepting that and saying you
know what you're missing out onwho I am today.
Speaker 1 (28:20):
I spent years because , because of the secrets and
because of the problems that Ihad when I was a kid, I didn't
go the great, a great direction.
Speaker 2 (28:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (28:29):
You know, and I got lost.
I made a lot of really badchoices.
I ended up with wrong people.
I ended up having more abuse inmy younger years and you know,
that's what taught me how to bedifferent and how to look for
different.
I can't even believe I was thatperson back then, but you know,
it's just really sad that eventhen people tried to write my
(28:53):
narrative and if I could havetold them what had happened up
to this point and I was just.
You know, sometimes people arejust seeking and they're just
looking to find their own selves.
I was as broken as could be and,yes, I handled it badly the
(29:15):
first 20, almost 30 years of mylife.
I handled it horribly, but Ialso didn't have a lot of
direction and the people thatraised me didn't give me the
direction that I needed.
I did not have those parentsaround me to help me, tell me
the right way to go.
They just I didn't and theymade the bad choices.
They were the ones that.
(29:36):
How can you look to people whomade so many bad choices and ask
them for help?
You can't do that.
I mean, that adds a wholenother layer of problem, which
comes down to trust.
You know, there are so manyparts to finding out the depths
of a lie or a secret, and whatwe're talking about here is
(29:57):
grief, the loss of what wethought was the truth, and there
are so many rippling effects.
When a secret is uncovered andthe identity within yourself is
changed.
It can tear us apart, it cantear families apart, and the
other thing that happens, whichwe just kind of touched on, is
(30:19):
that trust is lost.
Trust and when you're taught notto trust your own memories, I
think that was the biggest lossfor me as a child.
I lost my dad.
I lost my mom because of thesecrets and the lies that she
kept.
I lost trust and I lost myadult relationships and I was a
(30:43):
small child.
I learned young not to trustanyone and I think the biggest
thing I lost was the loss oftrust, and it wasn't my dad and
it was my dad, but it led to theworst losses and I stopped
(31:03):
believing who my mom was.
I stopped believing what shetold me as a pretty young kid
and I no longer believed what Isaw around me.
What was was doubted.
The loss of innocence was gone,and that's huge it is.
It is we.
Loss of innocence was gone andthat's huge.
Speaker 2 (31:20):
It is.
It is.
We talked about grief just now,for my grief, when I learned of
a secret recently.
My mother was a drug addict.
I was in kinship care with mygrandmother.
I found out that my fathernever knew where I was, that I
wasn't in kinship.
He didn't know who had custodyof me.
That was a big secret even tohim.
(31:42):
But finding out the control thatshe had, the grief that was
there was I could have had adifferent life if she didn't
have control.
So therefore, could the systemhave worked for me?
We all know the system's brokenlike, yeah, but in my mind, in
(32:03):
my mind was I had to grieve thefact that I could have had
something.
You know, I believed for a longtime that I didn't deserve it
or it just was never meant forme.
It wasn't meant for me.
But then to find out thatsecret, that no, she manipulated
the system.
And then when you talk abouttrust, that's the hard part,
(32:26):
because when you're learningsecrets, who can you trust?
Who's trustworthy?
Yeah, it's hard to know who youare when there are questions
that linger.
But somebody has the truth tothat, somebody has the answer to
that.
And for me, recently I was toldsomeone had passed away a
(32:47):
couple years ago.
Who has answers to some of myquestions?
But they told me he died and hedidn't.
He just doesn't want to befound and the people don't want
to tell me.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (32:58):
Oh my gosh.
Speaker 2 (33:01):
So there you go.
There's a secret out there thatthere's an answer to it and
everybody is avoiding to tell me.
And I'm 50 years old, I'm likeOK, I think I'm old enough now,
no matter how traumatic it was,because I've gone through trauma
.
I have been through trauma.
I have out.
You know, I've lived throughthings people said I never
should have.
How horrific can it be ifthey're still keeping that a
(33:23):
secret?
Speaker 1 (33:25):
Oh my gosh, I don't even know what I would do with
that and the secret that they'rekeeping.
How much bigger could it bethan everything that you already
know?
Speaker 2 (33:33):
Yeah, exactly that was a shocker to get Something I
got to work through.
Speaker 1 (33:40):
There was something that you said about that you
trust yourself.
I think that there's anotherlayer to that, because I think
when and I know this personallywhen someone tells you something
that didn't happen when youactually saw it with your eyes,
it's crazy making and it reallydoes make you doubt yourself.
It's like all of a suddenyou're like wait a second and
(34:01):
you don't trust your own self.
Now that's the ultimate loss.
I think too, you know, when youcan't even trust yourself and
silence creates fear, and that'san inner child killer.
Speaker 2 (34:18):
It is, and even it doesn't matter how old you are
when you have faced abuse, andthen you see that abuser or you
see that somebody else and youknow that they're telling
somebody else a different story.
And there's a part of me that,okay, I just had this happen to
me and I'm just going to divulgeit.
My father's wife and I had adisagreement on a lot of things
(34:43):
and when I went to talk to herabout a small thing that I
thought was what we were goingto discuss from two years ago,
she, brought up 30 years ago,continued to tell me these
things that she was the martyrand I wasn't.
And I tell you, when youquestion yourself, is you know
she called me a drama queen?
When somebody else looks at youand it's almost as if like it
(35:10):
didn't happen and what it didwas.
It triggered me back to that 14year old who was trying to be
believed.
And so you start to questionyourself again.
You know the truth, you knowwhat happened.
There's no like, oh, did I makethat story up?
You know that that happened toyou.
But when somebody else comes inand ripples that, you start to
(35:33):
question things all over againand it's almost like you have to
go back through that process ofwho am I now?
Like this is me.
I'm not that story that peoplewere still making of me.
The identity gets shaken alittle bit.
Speaker 1 (35:50):
Yeah, yeah, I mean, what about the loss of identity
which we have touched onthroughout, you know, different
times of this podcast?
When the truth unravels us, theones that fracture who we are,
which we're talking about here,the ones that twist your
foundation and make you questioneverything, and those secrets
really matter, I don't care whatanybody says.
(36:12):
They really matter.
Mariska was made to think shewas one thing, but she wasn't,
and I've had those deep uphirdsand I've had lies so deep I
didn't know who I was.
And you know what I think caneven be worse is when the people
holding the truth, or the oneouting the truth to you, telling
(36:32):
you they really possiblybecause this happened to me they
dropped a bomb and they walkedout the door, basically without
a care in the world that theyhad just left me, as if a
tornado had just burst my worldand I couldn't even breathe and
they didn't even care.
Speaker 2 (36:50):
Yeah, yep, I've had this happen again, like most
recently, and it was nothing tothem Like oh yeah, by the way,
but to me it was like hold on,this is just like another layer,
like wait, stop, I've got toprocess it.
When I learned some of thesesecrets that were being held
(37:11):
from me and then they told me itwas really a whirlwind.
It was really a whirlwind,especially the you know, the one
girl who said you know, yeah,like my parents will say, foster
you.
And she was like they reallytried to keep you.
And I'm like stop.
(37:33):
And then she disappeared, sheghosted me.
I haven't been able to, butyou're I'm left with that and
you're like how do I evenprocess it?
It's a whole processing thingwhen you're trying to take in
such a huge secret.
Speaker 1 (37:43):
It's a whole different layer, when the person
who had been keeping thissecret, they've been holding it
and then they just drop it andthey're just like see ya, it's
not a big deal to me, it can bevery devastating to the other
person.
See ya, it's not a big deal tome, it can be very devastating
to the other person.
Speaker 2 (38:02):
Yeah, I've been trying to process some of the
things that I've learned overthe last month and it's been
difficult.
It's been, and I'm in therapy,thank God, because I don't know
that I would have managedthrough some of it.
I mean, I'm still processing itall.
When you grow up with thesesecrets, they identified you
Like you're the pawn in thestory.
Right, I'm a pawn in theirstory and so, however, I fit
(38:26):
into their story within thesesecrets and within these things.
That's who I've been, but I'mnot you know.
So yeah, it's devastatingabsolutely when silence becomes
your survival.
It's devastating absolutely.
Speaker 1 (38:37):
When silence becomes your survival, there is
something wrong.
And to our listeners, is therea story in your family that's
gone untold?
Are there pieces of yourselfyou've only recently discovered?
Whatever you find beneath thesurface, let me tell you this it
doesn't make you less.
Don't let their shame becomeyours.
(38:59):
Once something is hidden, itbecomes big, and don't let it be
the weight that you carry.
And I just had recently, like Isaid, something told me and I'm
not really sure what I'm goingto do with it.
Yet I don't know what I'm goingto do with it, and that's okay,
and I think that we need timeto sit in it.
(39:22):
Sometimes, some way, I needtime to process, to figure it
out, and I'm a verycompartmentalized person and I
have this and this and this, youknow, and it's really been good
for me, it's really helped meget to my next day to be that
joyful person, to be that personthat can hear something earth
(39:42):
shattering, and then put thatdown and go help my kids do what
they need, and that's what I'vehad to do.
Yeah, and people have said tome oh my gosh, you know how.
Well, I think that that'sreally important how.
And you know, and we're not allmade that way.
We're not all made.
(40:02):
We're not all able to be able toput it down, to put that secret
down, that bomb that justsomebody important I mean it can
really consume us, but it'salso really important for it not
(40:24):
to, and for us to go still, doour things, but come back,
revisit, okay, you know, sit init for a little bit and go live
sitting in it for a little bitbecause I'm telling you it will
continue to grow and change anddo what it needs to while we're
living, and I think that that'sreally important.
Speaker 2 (40:48):
Yeah, when you, so for me I'm opposite.
I'm opposite.
I really kind of it consumed meand it was really hard for me
to take that next step Like Ididn't.
It was almost like you'rewalking and all of a sudden you
hit a curb and you can't evenfigure out how to get your foot
up on the curb to even walkfurther.
And so that happens.
(41:09):
It definitely happens Again.
I'm a big opponent for therapybecause I know, I know, I think
I would have been still stuck,and I still am.
I mean, like I said, you know,50 years old and I'm learning
all these things that peopleknew and no one told me.
And so I have two kids.
Obviously they're older, but Ihave a special needs son, and so
(41:29):
his life doesn't stop becauseI'm thrown a shell.
But at the same point I'mnavigating that being a parent
and holding on to the weight ofthese secrets that were just
revealed to me.
But you're right, you can'tlive in them.
This is something for me.
I'm so tired of the secrets,I'm so tired of not letting
(41:53):
other people see who I ambecause of the things that
happened to me.
Obviously, we don't alwaysdivulge everything, but when we
keep the secrets that were eventold to us like it's this,
everything is a secret.
We're then not authenticallyourselves.
You know, like I said, like Ididn't know the reason why my
father wasn't allowed near me.
(42:14):
Say this my father was a drugaddict as well.
It's glad you know it was athing that he should not have
been near me.
Nobody ever told me why.
Nobody said he was beingthreatened, nobody would ever.
But it's also one of thosethings where you know I'm like,
oh my God, like did that reallyhappen?
You're almost shocked.
The family secrets we havefamily secrets that didn't just
(42:36):
affect me, but I've been theonly one to say, hey, you know
what that happened, thathappened.
And so there's also, whenyou're able to do that, it's a
strength.
It's scary, it's absolutelyscary and overwhelming to not
hold on to your secrets.
But yeah, it's hard whensomebody throws the bombshell
(42:59):
and you still have to live life.
Speaker 1 (43:05):
Yeah, there were a couple big ones and I, you know,
I want to tell you something.
If you are still carrying,those secrets.
Decades later, it's time to putthem down, and the emotional
toll of silence is heavy and itchips away at your sense of
truth, your identity andsometimes even your sanity, as
you carry what was never meantto be yours anyway.
(43:27):
And you know, I want to saythis because I believe, and I'm
going to tell you why, because,as I mentioned earlier, I have
five kids, all adopted, and Iwas adopted and I made a vow no
secrets is knowing the truth inage-appropriate ways.
(43:50):
Like I said, I didn't wantanything to be hidden and it's
kind of funny because my son,even now, at eight years old,
still asks what was it like whenI was in your belly?
And he knows that he wasadopted, he knows who his
biological mom is, he knows allof it, but it's really important
(44:13):
to him for me to be that personthat carried him.
I don't know why it just is,and so we kind of pretend with
the facts at hand.
And he absolutely knows, andI'll say that to him and he'll
say I know, but I just want todo this.
I'll say that to him and he'llsay I know, but I just want to
(44:35):
do this, and that's fine.
You know, it's the narrativethat he wants to play out and
for some reason it's reallyimportant to him.
And I had to dig for the truth.
I had to and I don't want mykids to have to dig for the
truth and some things, like wesaid, they were taken to their
graves and other things wereouted in a way that it was wrong
(44:57):
.
The way that they were outedand that kind of control over
someone else's truth, it's notprotection when somebody goes to
their grave with it, that'serasure.
Speaker 2 (45:11):
Yeah, I have to say this, when you were talking
about you know, never keepingsecrets from your kids.
I kept my childhood a secretfrom my husband of course my
kids.
My son has autism, so he'd neverknow.
But I kept my childhood asecret from friends not very
close.
I mean.
My close friends are a few thatknew, but everybody else I kept
(45:32):
a secret from friends not veryclose.
I mean my close friends are afew that knew, but everybody
else I kept a secret from.
I kept a secret from my husbandbecause I didn't want him to
see me as the past.
I wanted him to see me as thepresent.
And I kept the secret from myyou know daughter.
Just because there is that partof shame when you've had so
many traumatic things happen toyou, you're always keeping a
(45:54):
secret.
And I want to say that I didn'tlie, I just never said anything
.
And so, as I've, she's 21 now.
My husband does know thingshappen to me.
He chooses that he doesn't wantto know specific because it's
hard for him.
But he knows now that, yeah, Ididn't have a.
I mean, he had an idea.
(46:15):
He's never liked my family whenthey were in our lives.
But my daughter it'sinteresting because, as she has
known now the truths, she saidsomething to a friend of mine
she's like my mom's, strongerthan I ever thought she was, and
so there's something in thatbecause it also when you are
(46:36):
able to be you and say, yeah,these things happen to me, or be
able to tell some of thesecrets, it's amazing.
My daughter always kept saying,oh, you're so strong, you're so
strong.
And then when she heard some ofthe things and I didn't tell
her till she was well, actuallythis year is when she found out
(46:57):
and like it's amazing becausethey see you in a you know
already as this, I guess, thesuperhero.
I like to think that that'swhat she always thought me of
and now I'm an extra superhero.
Speaker 1 (47:10):
That's cool.
Speaker 2 (47:10):
That's awesome, yeah, but it's.
That's the thing too.
It's like, you know, how do you?
You don't want her to ever haveto keep secrets about anything,
and we've we've raised our kidsthat way.
You know, my mother calledsocial services on me and when
they came, I said, you know tomy kids well, my daughter, I'm
like there's nothing for you tohide.
You tell everything, answereverything.
(47:31):
There are no secrets.
I remember saying that thereare no secrets.
Speaker 1 (47:37):
Yeah, see, that's really important.
And I was told don't tell, nomatter what, don't tell.
Yeah me too, and we deserve theright to grieve, we deserve the
right for that history to be apart of us and we deserve for it
to shape us.
You know, moving forward, and Ican tell you you don't want to
(47:58):
be on your deathbed like my momwas when she was dying and in
hospice and made some reallyhorrible choices to keep secrets
hidden, secret's hidden, and Idid find out later and you know
I don't want to be that personwhere I'm actually having
somebody else to go in my houseand grab things that I need to
(48:20):
hide so nobody can find out, soI can take it to my grave and
fortunately somebody did tell methat they did that and I still
don't know what was on thosepapers.
And I I have an idea, yeah, butyou know it isn't important.
Maybe and maybe not, maybemaybe not.
(48:42):
You know, I mean that's aquestion.
Is it going to change?
When I found out the dad that Ihad thought was my dad all
those years, in a second on aphone call, found out he wasn't.
Does that change me?
I?
don't know and I don't think Ishould let it change me because
(49:14):
somebody decided to drop a bomb.
I'm still me.
I'm still who I am.
I may never know what's onthose papers, I may never know
which I did because of DNA andyou know all that cool stuff.
And my brother came up inAncestry, dna or whatever yeah,
ancestrycom, and we were soclosely matched.
(49:40):
It was crazy how close we werematched and he doesn't look far
from me and we never met.
We chose not to.
Well, he did, really, butthat's okay.
Is it going to change mebecause we didn't meet?
Because the history behind usis too hard for us to come
(50:02):
together and it has nothing todo with either one of us.
It has to do with the decisionsthat were made before us in the
other generation, and that'sokay.
I got to meet some people on mydad's side and the things that
I found out about him was ahorrible person.
He was a horrible person, areally, really bad man.
(50:24):
Does that change me?
No, it doesn't change me.
It actually makes me betterbecause, in spite of all of
those things, look at who I amand look at what I've become,
and that's what this podcast hasalways been about.
This is what the platform isalways about.
It doesn't matter what'shappened to you or what people
(50:45):
have done to you.
You still have the right to bewho you are and not allow it to.
You know, get inside.
You know.
That's just.
I'm just putting that out therebecause it's been.
Really, those kinds of thingscan be really hard.
Are secrets protecting or arethey a prison?
What secrets shaped you, evenif you didn't know it at the
(51:06):
time?
Were you carrying secretsbefore you even understood what
you were carrying?
Carrying secrets before youeven understood what you were
carrying?
When fear becomes the languagethat you speak and survival
becomes your only mode of living, grief is not just losing
people.
It's about losing illusions ofwho you are, of everything about
you.
To anyone carrying the weightof a family secret, especially
(51:28):
one that was never yours to keep, we see you.
To those still navigating thegrief of learning the truth late
, we hear you To the oneswondering if they should ask or
let it go.
You get to choose.
Your healing is valid, howeverit unfolds.
And to anyone afraid thattelling the truth will break
something.
(51:48):
Maybe it will, but maybe thatthing needed to break so you
could finally breathe.
Speaker 2 (51:57):
Oh my gosh.
Yes, yes.
One of the things and I'llrespect my father for this is
that he said you have no ideathe cycles that you have managed
to break despite all thesecrets that were kept.
I appreciate that, despite thesecrets, I have been able to
(52:19):
break all these generationalcurses, if you will, or cycles
of abuse or whatever it is.
So even though you have secrets, like you said, it doesn't
change who you are.
Maybe it makes you a little bitstronger, you know?
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (52:34):
I think so.
It's what you do with it.
You know, I knew that all thepieces weren't there.
I've always known that there'sbeen secrets.
My family was all about secrets.
Oh yeah, I was made to keepthem as well and I've decided to
be different and I've decidednot to tell secrets and I want
(52:54):
the freedom I mean there is somuch.
It is a prison If you choose tolive, and I know people that
they live by their lies andtheir secrets.
Yeah, they are constantlytrying to cover up and trying to
remember their lies and their,you know.
Speaker 2 (53:14):
They catch up with you.
Yeah, it catches up with you.
You can't keep the storystraight.
If it's a lie, it's going toconstantly change.
If it's the truth, it stays thesame.
Speaker 1 (53:23):
No matter how hard it is.
I think you just need to behonest, and if you're honest
from the very beginning, itisn't something that has
snowballed and gotten bigger andbigger through the years and
that you finally need to tell.
You know, just be honest fromthe very beginning, and I know
that there's lots of people thatit's too late because the
(53:43):
secrets have been kept and youknow, maybe it's just time to
tell it.
Speaker 2 (53:47):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (53:48):
Just sit the person down and let them know.
This is what I did.
It would have been really niceif my mom would have said, my
adopted mom would have said tome I did this.
Speaker 2 (53:59):
And.
Speaker 1 (53:59):
I'm sorry and I'm sorry.
Do you know what that wouldhave done?
I mean, I didn't hold her handwhen she passed away because
there was so much between us,there was so much hurt between
us, and I know I'm autistic andI know that I don't touch people
anyway, but I had that kind ofrelationship with her that I
really never touched her and Ireally believe that it had to do
(54:21):
with the way she handledeverything after my dad passed
away and I wasn't included inthe story, the narrative of what
was going on behind the scenes,and I was told something
different.
And that's not okay, no, justnot.
No.
And so it does affect you.
And maybe I would have held herhand at the end, maybe it
(54:41):
wouldn't have been a nurse thatheld her hand at the end instead
of me, and I just watched her.
And then, as I walked out thedoor and then I did have a
balloon that had been attachedto her bed and I was with one of
my kids she was pretty young atthe time and she decided to
stay with me while she waspassing away.
(55:02):
After she passed away, mydaughter and I we walked out, we
got in the car.
I had the balloon that wasattached to my mom's bed and I
got out to get gas.
And I am not kidding you, theballoon was secured in that car.
It was secured, it wasn'tgetting out.
It forced its way into thefront and out of the car and it
(55:26):
just went up.
Speaker 2 (55:29):
And it took all of the struggles with it from you
like was it a release?
Speaker 1 (55:35):
my daughter and I just went because it was not a
normal.
Okay, the ball, the balloonflew out of the car because we
opened the door.
It wasn't like that.
Yeah, it was something else.
It it was so strange and then Ihad to get.
I instantly went and I got thefaith and the dove releasing,
(56:02):
because that's what I felt.
Yeah, I have been able to be meand be more of who I am and
live free since she passed away,and you and I have talked about
this before.
Yeah, we have, yeah, and it'sreally a shame that when even
the secrets go down intosomebody's grave and you're
never even going to know theanswers, you get to the point
(56:23):
where it's okay because I canfinally live.
Speaker 2 (56:26):
Yeah, and, like I said, I'm a seeker, I like to.
I want the truths to be built,but at the same point, like you
said, if you have somebody whotook them with them, you have to
come to the accept that you'renot going to know that truth.
Yeah, I had to let it go.
(56:47):
There's some of us who I don'tknow.
I just want to know.
I just want to complete myself.
That's how I always felt.
If I just complete myself withwhatever I know, there's many
secrets still out there and it'snot going to just because a
puzzle gets complete, it doesn'tmean it tells the whole story.
Speaker 1 (57:04):
No, and you know, and that's really important, and we
can keep trying to, like I didthe puzzle analogy earlier.
I mean you throw another pieceon there and it changes the
whole story of the puzzle.
What story do we want?
And that's really up to us.
Do I want to take in whatsomebody told me about my dad,
(57:26):
what somebody told me about mybiological mom and I have lots
of stuff about that and a lot ofother people in my life or do I
just want to be who I am, meright now?
Are those things important?
And I think that those are allthings that you have to answer
for yourself.
But I want to say this toeverybody out there right now
you know, everybody 97 percent,it said in the stats had lived
(57:50):
with secrets.
Every single family out statshad lived with secrets.
Every single family out therejust about has had secrets.
I can't believe that there's 3%of families that don't have any
secrets.
I mean that's really amazing tome.
So anyway, I was not in that 3%.
But you know, there's purpose inour pain and there is hope in
our journey, and that's what wesay every single time that we do
(58:11):
Real Talk with Tina and Anne,and I want to thank you, denise,
for being here today.
This has really meant the worldto me to have this discussion,
because a lot of things haveunfolded in the last 48 hours of
my life and I've beeninterviewing a lot of people and
I said you know what?
Let's just do this.
You and I can just have aregular conversation, and this
has really been, I want to say,fun, but it's been intriguing
(58:36):
and it's been eye-opening andhopefully revealing the secrets
and hopefully, you know, wedidn't open up too many
Pandora's boxes.
I'm not really sure, but youknow, I want it to be a positive
thing.
I want this to be positivegrowth for everybody out there
as you're dealing with whateversecrets come your way.
(58:57):
So thank you so much again forlistening and we will see you
next time.
Bye.
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