August 17, 2023 • 51 mins
Episode 061:
An Open Conversation about Swinging with Jo Leavitt
Ever wondered about the swinging lifestyle? Together with Lifestyle and Confidence Coach Jo Leavitt, we share a no-holds-barred discussion on this often misunderstood world. With Jo bringing her 17 years of personal experience and her expertise as the host of the Confidence Swinger Podcast, we shed light on the myths and misconceptions, and highlight the pillars of communication, trust, and respect in this lifestyle.
Our conversation doesn't stop at swinging but expands to the broader topic of non-monogamy. We explore ways to introduce the subject into a relationship and finding like-minded communities. Hear Jo's personal journey with her husband into this lifestyle, the changes they've gone through, and how she uses her experiences to help others navigate this path. This is a rare chance to listen to an open and honest discussion on a topic that's often kept in the shadows.
You can find her at Home | The Confident Swinger
Email her at jo@theconfidentswinger.com | Facebook
Download the free ice breakers guide to make meeting new people easy
The Confident Swinger | Build Your Confidence & Embrace Your Badassery | Patreon
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Carrie Jeroslow (00:03):
Welcome to the Relationship Diversity Podcast,
where we celebrate, question andexplore all aspects of
relationship structure diversity, from solaramary to monogamy to
polyamory and everything inbetween, because every
relationship is as unique as youare.
We'll bust through societalprogramming to break open and
(00:24):
dissect everything we thought weknew about relationships, to
ask the challenging buttransformational questions who
am I and what do I really wantin my relationships?
I'm your guide, Ca Jarislow,bestselling author, speaker,
intuitive and coach.
Join me as we reimagine allthat our most intimate
(00:44):
relationships can become.
Today's episode is part of ourconversation series.
I'm just one voice in thisrelationship diversity movement
and it's important to bring moreunique perspectives into the
conversation.
Today I'll be talking with JoLeavitt all about swinging, what
(01:09):
it is, what makes it work andwhat are the challenges and
common myths about the lifestyle.
But first a little about her.
Joe is a lifestyle andconfidence coach.
She helps people build theirconfidence and embrace their bad
assery, especially, but notexclusively, swingers.
(01:29):
She's also the host of theConfidence Swinger Podcast.
Let's get into the conversation.
Hello everyone and welcome tothis episode of Relationship
Diversity Podcast.
I've got a great guest for youand I am so super excited about
this topic because, although Iknow about it on an intellectual
(01:52):
way.
I have never experienced it, soI am going to be learning right
along with you.
We have got Joe Levitt here whois going to talk all about
swinging.
We are going to learn together.
Welcome, j, to the podcast.
Jo Leavitt (02:09):
Thank you so much.
I'm so excited to be here.
It's definitely a topic that Ilove, so I'm excited to educate
your audience about it.
Carrie Jeroslow (02:17):
Yes, because with any kind of relationship
structure, the less we know, themore assumptions we make.
Education is so important andlearning about other people's
experiences helps to open ourmind, to have more compassion,
empathy and possibly interest.
Jo Leavitt (02:37):
Absolutely.
Yeah, there's so many stigmasand it really just boils down,
like you said, to a lack ofeducation, because you're going
to be a little bit afraid of thethings that you don't know
about and so you're going tomake those assumptions and most
of the time those are going tobe wrong.
I think this is great to beable to change those perceptions
(02:58):
and to get rid of that negativestigma that swinging has.
Carrie Jeroslow (03:04):
Yes, yes, we're going to tackle all these
things.
I always love to start andlearn about how people, how you,
got into doing this, coachingpeople in this way, about
swinging.
There's always a story and I'dlove to hear your story.
Jo Leavitt (03:26):
There always is.
I am 46, I'm married and I'vebeen with my husband for 18
years.
We've been married nine.
We've been together 18, andwe've actually been swinging
together for 17 of those.
We got into the lifestylebecause I had always had some
(03:47):
bicuriosity in myself.
I'd always had that littlevoice in the back of my head
that always wondered, but I hadnever felt secure enough in any
relationship, or even in myselfin any relationship, to openly
admit it to myself or to openlyadmit it to anybody else.
(04:08):
I went through some shittyrelationships when I was young,
but it changed when I got withmy husband, with my now husband,
because he just created thissafe space for me.
I like to say that he's createdhome for me and that's just it's
such a gift that he's given it,really allowed me the freedom
(04:32):
and the safety to explore, toeven admit it to myself and then
admit it to him.
He took it so well and I said Ireally think that this is a
thing, I really think that Ihave some bicuriosity, I think
I'm attracted to women.
He said, well then, let'sexplore that.
(04:53):
He actually found some swingerwebsites, that it's very similar
to dating websites and youcreate a profile.
We got started that way andit's been an amazing journey.
It's shifted and our dynamicshave shifted and our experiences
(05:17):
have changed.
Obviously, I'm definitelybisexual and I still
predominantly play with women.
That's still my focus but ithas shifted a little bit and
it's opened us up to newpossibilities of things A few
(05:38):
years ago.
So that's kind of how we gotstarted in swinging.
Carrie Jeroslow (05:41):
That was 17 years ago.
You said 17 years ago.
What was that?
2005?
No, wait, yeah, 2004?
.
Jo Leavitt (05:52):
Something like that, something like that.
Okay, so that was a while ago.
It's been a while.
It's been amazing.
Well, so a few years ago I sortof went through that.
My husband called it a midlifecrisis.
I called it like that spiritualawakening, really, where I got
(06:14):
to that point where I was, Ifelt like I had so many gifts to
offer the world that were notbeing fully utilized.
And you know, I had been in myjob for a long time and I
enjoyed it, but it didn't feedmy soul, like it wasn't what I
was put on this earth to do.
And so I went through a lot ofpersonal development, a lot of
reflection, and ultimately itled me to coaching and that was
(06:38):
just the perfect fit.
But at that point I stilldidn't know who my audience was.
I didn't know what that lookedlike.
At first I actually thought itwas career coaching and that
just didn't, it didn't clickwith me.
And my husband actually madelike an offhand comment about
coaching swingers and I was like, of course, like yes, obviously
(07:02):
.
And so the confident swingerwas born and it's been.
I've been in my business justunder a year Now.
I've been certified just undera year, and it's been such an
incredible journey.
Carrie Jeroslow (07:20):
Yeah, because now, having gone through your
own journey, you have an idea ofwhat other people who you know
have those curiosities, whetherit is about you know their
sexuality, or about therelationship structure and the
fear of being on the side of theterror and the unknown wanting
(07:44):
to go to the other side.
So that's, I'm sure that you'revery helpful with your clients
after having gone, traveled thatpath yourself.
Jo Leavitt (07:53):
Right, yeah, absolutely, and I've been in
this lifestyle a long time andI've seen a lot and I've learned
a lot and I've grown, not onlythrough my own experiences but
also observing other people'sdynamics, because obviously our
dynamic works for us, it's whatwe like.
But that doesn't mean that Idon't have experience with all
(08:15):
of these other dynamics that arein the lifestyle, and you know,
I have a lot of close friendsthat have very different
dynamics than I do and I've seentheir journeys as well, and so
which is also kind of helpful alittle bit seeing those things
from the outside, becausesometimes it's hard to see them
from the inside, when you'reexperiencing them.
Carrie Jeroslow (08:37):
Right, right, and I love that you kind of put
on, you know, your observer hatand watch all of that, because
it's very much what I talk aboutin relationship diversity.
You are your own unique personplus another unique person
equals a unique relationship andhow it shows up in the world.
Jo Leavitt (08:56):
Absolutely yeah.
And then when you well, youknow, when you bring other
people into that it can createthis, just this beautiful
tapestry, but it definitely doesbring its own challenges.
Carrie Jeroslow (09:11):
Oh yeah, as we both smile.
You can't see us, but we'reboth going.
Jo Leavitt (09:16):
Oh yes, it's my smile and you know, that was one
of the reasons why I felt sodrawn to coach in the lifestyle.
To coach other swingers isbecause it definitely presents
its own unique set of challenges.
And you, because that stigma isstill there, because that taboo
is still there.
People sometimes feel veryalone in that they don't feel
(09:37):
like there's anybody that theycan reach out to, because they
don't necessarily needcounseling, they don't need
therapy, they just need somebodyto understand and to help them
through the issues that they'regoing through, and that is the
magic of a coach.
Carrie Jeroslow (09:53):
Yes, yes, Because I think you know many
people feel very alone when theystart to explore these kinds of
things and even knowing, oh,someone else knows, kind of what
I'm going through is reallyhelpful.
I want to go back to just sobecause everyone may not know
(10:17):
how would you define swinging?
Jo Leavitt (10:21):
So my definition of swinging is when someone is
willing to open theirrelationship up to other sexual
partners.
So that could that could be awhole range of different things
and that may not evennecessarily be.
In my opinion, it may not evennecessarily be participating
(10:42):
contact wise with other people.
It could also includeexhibitionism and voyeurism as
well.
In my opinion, it's a bigumbrella.
Most people believe thatswinging is really when you are
having sexual contact with otherpeople outside of your
relationship, and there are alot of different dynamics in
(11:03):
that.
There's soft swap, which isincluding sexual contact that
does not include penetration,and then there's full swap,
which obviously does includethat penetration aspect, and
there's a lot of different, alot of room in the middle.
Carrie Jeroslow (11:22):
Right, there's a lot of nuances in scenarios.
Can you maybe give us a fewother scenarios of how swinging
could look?
Jo Leavitt (11:34):
Absolutely so there's there's parallel play as
well, so that would be you andyour partner playing just with
each other, but near anotherpartner, but you guys are not
actually swapping.
That's a really good way fornew people to get introduced to
it and to to increase theircomfort level.
And some people play together,some people play separate, they
(11:55):
play solo, some people play sameroom, so they want to be either
in the same room or on the samebed.
So it's sort of like a big pileand there's pros and cons of
that.
Some people prefer to playseparate, like sometimes it's
very distracting for them to seetheir partner with somebody
else, and so they prefer to bein a separate room.
Some people prefer same roof.
(12:18):
So that means that, as long asthey're in the same building and
they know that their partner issafe, it creates that safety
that they feel comfortable with,and some people just totally
play solo.
So it's really there's a lot ofdifferent ways.
There's a lot of differentdynamics.
Carrie Jeroslow (12:36):
Yeah, lots of different ways that it can show
up.
And if someone were to come toyou and say I'm interested in
swinging I've never done itbefore, is there a pathway?
Or do you talk to them aboutmaybe what is a turn on for them
and you start there Like how doyou navigate?
(12:58):
Like starting out?
Jo Leavitt (13:00):
Yeah, absolutely.
So.
I always tell everybody thatthe very first thing that you
need to work on is like your why.
That's the first thing that Iwork on with all of my clients,
regardless, is know your why.
You need to understand why thisis something that you want, and
it needs to be something thatyou want and not just something
that your partner wants, becauseif it's just something that
(13:22):
your partner wants, it is goingto cause resentment, it's going
to cause problems and it's notgoing to end well.
So my first step is always likeknow your why, know what you
want to get out of this, knowwhat it's going to bring to you
personally and know what it'sgoing to bring to your
relationship.
And then really, yeah, find outwhat that turn on is.
What is it that you like?
(13:43):
And for a lot of people,especially if they're just
starting out, bring that sexytalk up in the bedroom, make it
a fantasy and bring that up andsee if it's a turn on for both
of you guys.
Or you can bring in some pornthat's always a good way too or
there's a ton of podcasts outthere.
Carrie Jeroslow (14:03):
So it's always your podcast, the confidence
swing or podcast.
Go check it out.
Jo Leavitt (14:09):
Yeah, it's amazing.
Not that I'm biased or anything, but it is.
Podcasts are actually a greatway for you to start
conversations where nobodycreates this safe space for you
to feel comfortable sharing,because it's not either one of
you bringing it up, necessarily,it's this third party.
So when you're listening to ittogether you can be like, oh,
(14:32):
that's interesting, what do youthink about that without
somebody having to bring it up?
So that's kind of a good way tothe next step past.
That is really like figure outwhere your comfort level is and
then you have to explore that.
So that may mean going to aclub or a party or a meet and
(14:57):
greet with no expectations otherthan to just fill it out, just
see how you feel, see what theenvironment feels like, see how
you feel and your partner feels.
And it's really a good time tonot have any expectations about
playing that first time.
It's really just like a fact.
Seeking vision.
(15:17):
I tell my clients live withcuriosity.
So like make your choices andnotice all of the things.
Like.
This is obviously like a lotwith my with thought, work and
stuff.
But even in that kind of asituation, like go into it with
curiosity and non-judgment.
(15:38):
So you're just going to seewhat happens and there's no
right or wrong.
You're just noticing whathappens.
Carrie Jeroslow (15:45):
Yeah, we say I sign off every single episode.
Stay curious because when wesit in that curiosity, you know.
Then we become slightly like,removed from all the judgments
and the fears and the stigma,and we stay in this space of
openness.
Jo Leavitt (16:05):
Absolutely.
Yeah, I tell that with myclients so much too.
But a lot of what I work withwith my clients is thought work
and I said, if you focus on yourthoughts with curiosity, then
you are sort of removingyourself from them and you don't
feel so overwhelmed by theemotions because you're not
feeling the emotion so much asyou're noticing.
Carrie Jeroslow (16:27):
Right.
Jo Leavitt (16:28):
And it is a great distinction.
Carrie Jeroslow (16:30):
Yes, yes, so helpful.
What well?
I have two questions and I'mthinking about going in order.
So my first question is oncesomeone's decided, okay, we want
to go for it, how do peoplefind, because of all the stigma
it's so underground, which Ihope, with podcasts like yours
(16:54):
and mine, we start to bringacceptance into swinging
polyamory, et cetera,non-monogamy, but how do people
find places to go explore?
Jo Leavitt (17:08):
Right.
So, like I mentioned before,when we first got started, we
set up a profile on a website,and that is really a great way
to get started because you cango in and set up a profile, but
all of those sites also aregoing to list out events that
are going to be in your area.
So not only are you trying toconnect with other people on a
(17:32):
one-on-one sort of similar todating basis, but you're also
finding out about the events andthe meet and greet so you can
go meet people.
And there are several sites.
Some of them are more popularin some areas than others.
I'm in the Midwest and C4P,which is Club Four Play, is very
(17:53):
popular in this area and that'sthe one that we use quite a bit
.
But there are other websites aswell.
Sls is one and Cassidy BetLife,although that's more of like
BDSM, but there are a lot ofsites like that.
So I would definitely recommenddoing some searching and
(18:15):
finding out what those sites arethat are going to be popular in
your area, and if anybody has aquestion about that, I sort of
in one of my files I have a listof the websites that are more
popular in different areas.
So any of your listeners thatare interested can feel free to
email me and I can at least getthem started on which of those
(18:39):
sites are good for differentareas.
Because obviously, yeah, it'sgoing to be.
You're going to be moresuccessful if there are more
events going in your area, andsome are more popular than
others.
And also a great way isFacebook groups.
There are Facebook groupseverywhere.
Facebook groups are amazingbecause there are groups that
(19:00):
pop up all over the world.
Really, I'm assuming I haven'tsearched for ones
internationally, but I knowthere are so many domestically
here in the US and if you getinvolved in those groups, then
you're going to be meetingpeople more locally and you're
going to be finding out aboutevents, and that's really a
(19:22):
great place to start, becauseyou want to go to those.
You want to meet people.
Carrie Jeroslow (19:26):
That's kind of how it works.
Yeah, if you want to explore itand you want to go past the
kind of play fantasy play itwould be finding a group or
finding a place.
Jo Leavitt (19:39):
Right, you can't play with other people without
other people.
Carrie Jeroslow (19:41):
Right, right.
Well, jo is a great resource,so I'll have her email address
down in the show notes for youif you want to connect with her,
and I'm sure she'll be able tohelp you out.
So my next question is a commonquestion that I get, so I'm
curious what your answer is, andthat is let's say, one person
(20:04):
wants to explore swinging andthe other person in the
partnership does not.
What then?
Jo Leavitt (20:12):
You know it's funny that you say that.
Like I said, we've been swingingin the lifestyle for a long
time and it's always been likeI've always been leading that
because we started with it beingmy fantasy and it just feels a
lot more naturally to me and myhusband has always been the more
(20:33):
I don't want to say reluctant,but he's always been that person
that's not as interested, andwe actually did just do a
podcast episode together.
That was when one partner ismore interested in the lifestyle
than the other because he isthat more reluctant partner.
So, really, like with anything,you're different people and
(20:56):
you're coming at it withdifferent wants and different
needs and different desires.
So you really need to be veryopen and honest about those
things, and understanding whyyou have those wants and those
needs and those desires is goingto be super important, because
there may be other ways to fillthose needs that everybody is
(21:19):
happy with.
So it's super important to justbe open and be honest with one
another and to really exploreall of the possibilities, and it
can also be very helpful, ifyou're in that situation, to
have a coach or a mentor or anoutside perspective to help you
(21:41):
navigate that, because there maybe options that neither one of
you are seeing, because you'revery blinded by your own
expectations.
Carrie Jeroslow (21:49):
Right, and we I think I'm saying a collective
we want all or nothing.
You know, it's like I want itall.
And there's you know, there'susually something, and this is
why where I think what you talkabout of the first thing you do
is to help people determinetheir why, because when you have
that why, you can maybe come upwith this creative solution.
(22:15):
If both people feel heard andsafe to come up with this
creative solution, that will getyou both what you need in a way
that you both feel supportedand heard.
Jo Leavitt (22:26):
Absolutely, that's so important.
And you know, we've I've beenguilty of that too, even
recently, even now, you know,I've been guilty of having that
all or nothing mindset and I'mlike, when I get into my feels
and I'm like, well, I just can'tdo this at all, then because
you don't want this and so Ijust can't do this, and then I
step back and I'm like, ok,that's just that's my bitchy
(22:48):
little brain talking and that'snot the reality.
So let's reality check thatshit and let's come out this a
different way.
Carrie Jeroslow (22:57):
Yes, totally, I get in that place too.
I think it is really a commonand having the awareness that
maybe that's what where, like,the default go to is, and then
being able to pull back.
But also this is why I love theidea of having a coach,
specifically in something thatis so different from anything
you've ever done is that coachwill help you find these
(23:21):
creative solutions and make surethat each person feels heard
and seen and cared for.
Jo Leavitt (23:28):
Absolutely, and what I've found is very common is
one person will have thatinterest and people.
One person will have thatdesire, that curiosity, but
they'll be afraid to bring it upto their partner because they
don't know how that's going tobe received and they're really
afraid of hurting their partner.
And so they don't want theirpartner to receive that, as
(23:49):
though they're not good enoughor that they aren't meeting
their needs or that they wantsomebody else sexually.
And that's the huge roadblockfor most people having that
initial conversation.
Carrie Jeroslow (24:05):
Yes, that is very deeply ingrained cultural,
societal beliefs aboutrelationships.
Absolutely you have to be myeverything or else something's
really wrong, and it seemsunrealistic that anyone could be
that for anyone else.
Jo Leavitt (24:26):
It does.
It's sad that we think that andthen we get sucked into these
insecurities that if I'm notenough, if my partner wants
something else, then that mustmean that I'm not enough and
that means that I'm not worthy.
And so sad.
And it's not the way.
It's not true.
Carrie Jeroslow (24:48):
Right, right.
So a lot of the work thatyou're doing, even preparing
someone for this is about theirown self-worth and their
self-worth and self-love,self-acceptance, all that.
Jo Leavitt (25:02):
All of that.
Yeah, I am a lifestyle andconfidence coach and the reason
for that is because at the baseof really getting what you want
is that confidence, thatself-acceptance piece, that
self-love piece, and that's alsowhy it was led to coach in that
, using that confidence, thattool, that framework.
(25:25):
I don't know exactly what Iwant to say with that, but
that's really at the base of somany issues, is that, not that
self-doubt?
Carrie Jeroslow (25:38):
Right, right.
It's at the core of a lot ofthings.
Jo Leavitt (25:42):
It is, it is.
Carrie Jeroslow (25:44):
And I think it's a lifelong practice to find
the self-confidence I knowafter 53 years.
It's like there are times whenit's high, there are times when
it's low, and that's okay, andsometimes it fluctuates within
the 24 hours of a day, but it'sjust a constant thing to travel
(26:05):
and to learn about and to staycurious about as well who?
So I want to go back to theswinging a little bit and ask
you who do you think theswinging lifestyle really serves
Like?
Who is it really good for otherthan someone who has a real
interest in it?
Jo Leavitt (26:23):
Right, yes, so I will say that you need to be
very solid in your relationship.
If you have a troubledrelationship and you think that
swinging is going to solve it,that's like having a baby to fix
the marriage.
Carrie Jeroslow (26:40):
Oh yeah.
Jo Leavitt (26:40):
It does not work.
Carrie Jeroslow (26:42):
Yes.
Jo Leavitt (26:42):
It does not work.
So you need to have a solidfoundation, you need to have
trust, you need to have respectthose are super important and
you need to have goodcommunication.
And you may think that you havegood communication going into it
, but once you start swinging itis going to test you to the
(27:02):
limits and it's going to revealall of those spots.
I'm sure you understand this100%.
Yes, it requires so much, sosorry.
Let me go back.
Sometimes I rabbit hole.
So first of all, you need to besolid in your relationship.
So if you have a solidrelationship and it's just sort
(27:25):
of like it's lost its spark,it's lost its excitement a
little bit, you kind of feellike it's become mundane a
little bit and so you're lookinglike you already have a good,
solid relationship but you'relooking to just reignite it, and
that's a great.
I see a lot of people gettinginto it like that.
(27:47):
We just want to bring back thespark, the passion to our
relationship that we feel likewe've lost a little bit.
Also, people that are reallywanting to explore new areas of
sexuality men and women ortogether.
That could also be people thatare like we've been together for
(28:09):
many, many years and we haven'texplored other things Sexually
and so we want to try new thingsand we want to try them
together, and that's anotherreally good reason why people
get involved in the lifestyle orget started in swinging.
Carrie Jeroslow (28:27):
That's so great and, like you said when you
were describing all thedifferent ways that swinging
could show up, even going to aclub together with your partner
you know a sex club or a sexdinner party and just observing
and maybe getting ideas, youknow, maybe feeling turned on
(28:48):
and then bringing that back homethat it doesn't have to always
be.
I'm going to be having sex withother people to have it be
swinging.
Jo Leavitt (28:58):
Absolutely so much.
So many people go into it justbecause they love to flirt and
they like to feel sexy and theylike that sexually charged
atmosphere and then they want togo home and fuck their
partner's brains out.
Oh yeah, awesome.
Carrie Jeroslow (29:13):
Yes, yes, and I love broadening it up like that
because I think maybe thatmight allow people who never
thought that they could quiteopen up in that way, that gives
them maybe a little bit ofopening no pun intended or pun
intended to explore justsomething new for their
(29:38):
relationship.
Jo Leavitt (29:40):
Absolutely.
And you know, everybody isdifferent and everybody's
comfort level is different.
And some people get introducedto it and they want to go balls
to the wall and they want todive in head first and that
works for them and that's great.
And some people need to puttheir toes in the water.
Some people need to baby stepinto it, and that's great too.
It's really whatever makes youfeel most comfortable and most
(30:04):
accepting of the situation.
Carrie Jeroslow (30:06):
Right and do you also find, because I think
this is OK too, specificallymaybe in polyamory, which I'm a
little bit more versed to thanswinging, but that people can go
explore and then say you know,I'm glad we did that, but that's
not for me, that's not for us,and come back into a closed
(30:26):
arrangement?
Jo Leavitt (30:27):
Absolutely.
People can go and try that andthen say, you know, monogamy is
for us Like we are not this.
We tried it, we explored it andit just didn't fill the need
like we thought that it wouldand we are good with just being
monogamous again, absolutely.
Carrie Jeroslow (30:45):
Right.
I love that flow and fluiditybecause I think that there's a
lot of thinking out there thatif I go do this, this is how it
is going to be forever.
Jo Leavitt (30:57):
And there is a lot of people that take a step back
from the lifestyle for variousreasons throughout their journey
.
There have been years when Chadand I have not participated
with anybody else.
However, we have these amazingfriendships in this amazing
community that has been createdthat we would not give up for
(31:17):
anything.
So, even during those phaseswhen we have not played with
anybody else, we've still hadthat community.
We've still had thosefriendships that we treasure.
So we never really felt like wetotally stepped out of the
lifestyle.
But there have definitely beentimes that we did not
participate at all and we werefine with that.
Carrie Jeroslow (31:41):
Right.
Right, because there aremoments in our life that either
circumstantially, we're so busywe just cannot take on another
you know commitment or anotherexperience, or emotionally,
maybe we're just drainedemotionally because of the
chapter of life that we're inand being present with the
(32:03):
fluidity of life andcommunicating that will help to,
you know, people to stayconnected, couples to stay
connected, which I know is oneway that will make swinging
successful for people.
What are other ways?
What is needed to make theswinging experience successful?
(32:25):
And I don't look at successfulas like we did it and we're
going to do it for the rest ofour lives just like a feel good
experience.
That was a good experience.
Jo Leavitt (32:34):
Right yeah, success is everybody being happy with
the situation.
Carrie Jeroslow (32:38):
Right.
Jo Leavitt (32:38):
And everybody feeling like it was a good
experience that they want tocontinue with.
So, again, it really reallygoes back to communication, and
I know people are probably tiredof me saying that, but it's so
true.
You have to be able to havethat open, honest communication
and that is hard as fuck.
(32:59):
It is hard.
It is so hard to say somethingto your partner that you know is
going to hurt their feelings.
Carrie Jeroslow (33:08):
So scary.
Jo Leavitt (33:10):
It is, but it's needed.
It's needed to grow, likeyou're not saying at, you're not
giving that honesty out ofanger, out of hostility or out
of anything except for thedesire to love your partner and
to grow into your relationship.
So it really requires that open, honest communication and it
(33:31):
requires you sharing yourfeelings with your partner at
every step of the way.
And so when you're feelingjealous because that shit's
going to happen, you talk aboutit and you say, well, what were
the triggers, what brought thatup for me, and what did we enjoy
about this experience?
And what did we not enjoy aboutthis experience and what can we
(33:51):
learn from it and how can wemove forward.
I try to encourage people tonot see any situation in terms
of good or bad, but just interms of what can we learn and
how can we move forward.
Carrie Jeroslow (34:04):
Right, it's so helpful.
And then it takes all thejudgment that people are scared
to feel, or that's a lot ofpeople show other people's
judgment, so it's like it'sneither good or bad.
It's your experience.
Your experience is valid.
Let's talk about it and moveforward.
Jo Leavitt (34:23):
Absolutely so.
Communication is definitelyimportant and the other thing I
think that's equally importantis trust and respect.
So that means that if yourpartner is feeling a certain way
about something and not readyfor something yet, then you need
to respect where they are intheir journey.
And it's typically a rule ofthumb that you go as at the pace
(34:47):
of the slower partner, so yougo at their comfort level
instead of the person that isall involved to the wall.
You have to go at the pace ofthe less comfortable partner,
but I also encourage that lesscomfortable partner to push
themselves a little bit.
(35:07):
Change doesn't happen in yourcomfort zone.
Carrie Jeroslow (35:11):
So true, so true.
Yeah, and I love that you saythat, because I think it is
again the compromise.
We don't want to push someonetoo much if they're not ready,
but at the same time we want tobe stretching and expanding, and
so it's a dance.
(35:32):
It's a delicate dance and again, why I love the idea of working
with a coach like Joe?
Because one is, I think of itas like a doctor.
A doctor sees thousands ofpatients, so they know if
someone comes in with a soreshoulder, they have more
perspective of what's common,what's not common.
(35:55):
We're just sitting here with asore shoulder going oh my God,
I'm the only one with a soreshoulder.
This must mean this.
But if you're working with acoach who has so much experience
with different kinds ofscenarios, I think that there's
a comfort level in that to bring.
Like, no, this is normal.
And I'm going to just kind ofgently push you up to expand a
(36:17):
little bit and explore, and I'mgoing to hold you back a little
bit to see your partner, becauseyou love that partner and that
delicate dance.
Jo Leavitt (36:28):
Absolutely, and that is also why it's so important,
before you start, to know yourwhy, like know the reason why
you're doing this, because whenthings get icky and they get
sticky and they get hard, if Icome to you and you're like I
don't think I'm ready for this,then I'm going to ask you well,
what made you want to start?
What was your why?
Let's talk about your why,because that can help you
(36:51):
identify, like, where yourboundaries are and what you're
not okay with, and help youidentify what you are okay with
but you're just scared, and wecan also identify what those
fears are.
Carrie Jeroslow (37:05):
Right, and I think maybe most people's
ultimate fear is break up is andhow do you see that working it?
I mean, sometimes that happens.
It's not fun or comfortable inthe least bit, but it is.
(37:26):
I can't sugarcoat around it, itis a possibility, right?
Jo Leavitt (37:29):
Absolutely.
It is a possibility.
Breakups happen and I'm alsonot going to tell you that I
haven't seen instances wherepeople have broken up in the
lifestyle and gotten with theother person that they were
swinging with Like they fell inlove with somebody else.
This relationship broke up andthey ended up getting into a
(37:50):
relationship with somebody else.
It's a possibility.
But it's also a possibilitythat your partner could meet
somebody at the grocery storeand fall in love with them, or
they could meet somebody at workand fall in love with them.
Like you don't own your partnerand ultimately you should want
them to be happy in whatever wayfulfills them the most.
(38:11):
And sometimes that's not you,and I know that sucks and I know
that's hard, but that's alsojust the reality of it.
So, yeah, for sure, it'sdefinitely the big fear that a
lot of people are going to havewhen they go in is like what if
they replace me?
And that's also where thatconfidence comes in, that
acceptance in yourself is youknowing your worth and you don't
(38:35):
have those fears as much?
Carrie Jeroslow (38:37):
Yes, and relationships are really.
They are really wonderful andthey're also tricky and can be
challenging, regardless of whatstructure you are in or
practicing.
That is just how relationshipsare.
(38:58):
We are the most intimate withthat person and so a lot of
stuff comes up and I think thosepeople I see it in my kids,
even my kids can be theirabsolute self around me, more
than anyone else.
And a lot of times it's not themost beautiful part of them.
A lot of times it is, but a lotof times it's they have to be
(39:21):
on guard so much in their lifethat they come home and they
just need to be them, andsometimes that's tantrums and
those kind of things.
So I appreciate you going therewith me on that, because I
don't think that we should sugarcoat it.
And there are times when, evenin any kind of non-monogamous
(39:43):
relationship or in a monogamousrelationship, that you grow and
find that this relationship I'vegrown in another direction and
this person's grown in anotherdirection and it's not together
and there is a lot of timeswhere this kind of experience
can bring people together andcan help us grow together.
(40:05):
So I tend to always look at theworst case scenario and I think
a lot of people do, but there'salso could be a great case
scenario that comes up from thisexperience.
Jo Leavitt (40:16):
Absolutely so I will tell you what I've seen is the
people that have thatcommunication and they have that
trust and they have thatrespect and they're able to
navigate the difficulties.
It strengthens and intensifiestheir relationship so much Like
(40:36):
the lifestyle, and swinging withmy husband has brought our
communication to a whole anotherlevel.
It has brought our intimacy toa whole another level.
It has brought our trust to awhole another level.
Because you have to have thatto allow your partner to go
explore with somebody else andknow that they're still going to
(40:58):
come back to you or to believethat they are still going to
come back to you.
It takes a tremendous amount oftrust and respect and
acceptance and when yourrelationship has that and you're
able to go get your needsfilled and be happy and then
bring that joy back to yourrelationship, it just
(41:20):
exemplifies this joy.
So it doesn't take away fromyour relationship.
And that's the thing that peopledon't realize about the
lifestyle.
Is you think that you're goingto be outfucking other people
because you want to beoutfucking other people and it's
going to pull something awayfrom your relationship.
And really, when you're doingit the right way, when you're
doing it openly and honestly andyou're sharing.
(41:44):
It really has the oppositeeffect of that, because you're
happier, you're more open,you're more honest.
You don't fucking feel the needto hide.
Yeah, that is huge.
Like so many people are like,oh, am I attracted to that guy,
but I can't tell my husband.
Like, oh, I think he's hot, butI can't tell my husband.
When you have that level offreedom in your relationship,
(42:07):
you don't have to have thosesecrets.
Carrie Jeroslow (42:09):
Yeah.
Jo Leavitt (42:10):
That just creates this beautiful depth.
Carrie Jeroslow (42:14):
Yes, it's bonding, it's bonding.
Jo Leavitt (42:17):
It definitely is.
Carrie Jeroslow (42:18):
Yeah, oh, I love this conversation.
I do want to ask this onequestion before we sign off.
I want to know what myths aboutswinging myths, because these
are all the assumptions right Oflike people who have never done
it, who are like, oh my God,it's just like they're in this
(42:40):
dungeon which they could be, butthey're just like always going
out and having sex with allthese other people.
I mean, what are some of themyths that you find, and can you
debunk them for us?
Jo Leavitt (42:53):
Yeah.
So I will share a story.
My daughter-in-law actuallyouted me at her bachelorette
party.
We were, she was a littlestoned and we were playing like
one of those cute littlebachelorette party games where
it's like have you ever, willyou ever?
And my card that I got was bewith another girl, be with
(43:17):
another woman.
And so of course I'm drinkingand somebody notices and makes a
comment about it and she sortof came out of her high stupor
and she said are you in Chad'sswingers?
And like I don't have a goodpoker face at all, I don't lie,
I don't think quickly on my feet.
And so everybody else was like,oh yeah, we've kind of, we've
(43:42):
kind of wondered about that too.
And when I sort of confirmed itjust because my face obviously
like confirmed it, the firstquestion that I get is so do you
guys have key parties?
And that's what everybodythinks it is is like this old
70s style version of swinging,which is where you know, several
(44:02):
couples go to a house and theyput their keys in a bowl and
he's out and you drew, you gofuck them in the other room.
Oh, I'm not going to say thatkey parties exist, but I am
going to say that that is notthe majority of swinging.
The myths are that it's just abig, huge orgy.
(44:25):
The myths are that everybodythat's in the lifestyle is just
looking to fuck everybody else,or they're just looking to fuck
someone, that it's just anexcuse for them to cheat, and
that's definitely not what it is.
I'm trying to think of someother, you know it really like.
(44:45):
The big myth is that it's justa big orgy, it's just a big free
for all, and that could not befarther from the truth, because
I will tell you that I feelsafer at a swingers party than
anywhere in public.
I am safer from sexual assaultat a swingers party than I am
(45:09):
anywhere in public, because it'sa community and because
everybody there knows thatconsent is king and it is the
most important thing.
And if I'm ever feelinguncomfortable, I can say
something, and it doesn't matterif other people know me or not.
They're going to make sure thatI am safe.
Carrie Jeroslow (45:28):
Right.
I hear that in the BDSM andKing community as well.
Absolutely, it's way safer thananyone thinks because there's a
code of ethics, there is anagreement that you go through,
you know, before the playactually starts.
I think also, broadening yourdefinition of what swinging is
(45:49):
and how it can show up forpeople makes it, yes, about the
you know sex sometimes, but alsoabout the eroticism of just
seeing other people.
Even you know watching otherpeople have sex in real life,
you know, is very erotic forsome people and doesn't have
(46:09):
anything to do with them havingsex.
There's just such a variety ofhow swinging could show up in
someone's life.
Jo Leavitt (46:17):
Absolutely.
And you know, we didn't eventalk about singles in the
swinging world, because that's awhole.
Other thing is some people arejust looking for a woman, or
they're just looking for a manto bring into their bedroom, and
so there's definitely a placefor singles as well.
In my opinion, you don'tnecessarily have to be coupled
(46:39):
to be a swinger.
You just have to be willing toaccept sexuality on a non-normal
, non-society, on those terms.
Carrie Jeroslow (46:50):
I love that you bring that up.
I love that you bring that upbecause I talk a lot about the
structure that I've called soloamary, which is, I want you know
, my relationship with myself tobe the most important one and
to be prioritized, and this is away for someone who's
practicing solo amary to youknow get sexual needs met and
(47:13):
still maintain their single lifeAbsolutely.
Jo Leavitt (47:17):
Yeah, and it gets everybody's needs filled because
it gets that couple that'stheir desire, their fantasy,
their wants and their desires.
It gets those needs filled aswell.
And if it's as long aseverybody is open and honest
about it, then it's a great.
It's a great situation, it canbe a great situation.
Carrie Jeroslow (47:36):
Right, right.
Well, one last question.
First, I want to thank you somuch.
This has been so enlighteningand I've learned so much.
My question that I'd like toleave everyone with is what are
your hopes and dreams for theswinging community in the next
maybe 15, 20 years?
How would you like to see theevolution of the swinging
(47:59):
community travel experienceevolve?
Jo Leavitt (48:06):
Yeah, I really just want it to be more known and
more accepted.
I love that LGBTQ plus hasbrought.
There's been so much awarenessbrought to that and it's opened
people's eyes up and it's madeit so much more acceptable.
And I really want the lifestylein general including swinging,
(48:32):
including polyamory, includingBDSM, including all of those
those different dynamics I wantall of those to be understood
and accepted.
You don't have to agree with it, you don't have to participate
in it, for you to respect it andto accept it.
Carrie Jeroslow (48:53):
I love that.
I love that and I know that youare doing your part with your
podcast and your coaching, andso I thank you for doing that to
further relationship diversityand the acceptance of it, and I
want to encourage anyone who isinterested in exploring either
(49:14):
the swinging lifestyle or how tobecome more confident in your
relationships to please go checkout.
Joe.
She's got a 12 week one on oneto one program called.
You got to say it because it'sa good.
It's a good title.
Jo Leavitt (49:31):
Get out of your head and into their bed.
Carrie Jeroslow (49:33):
Get out of your head and into their bed.
Ah, what a great thing to leavea great slogan.
I love it and we will leave youwith that.
So if you have any interest toget out of your head and get
into their bed, go check out,joe.
All of her information will bein the show notes.
Joe, thank you so much, thankyou, Carrie.
Jo Leavitt (49:55):
This has been such a pleasure.
It's been so much fun.
Carrie Jeroslow (49:59):
It has been.
We'll have to do it againsometime.
Jo Leavitt (50:01):
Definitely.
Carrie Jeroslow (50:31):
The best thing about this program is that it's
not just about the diversity,but it's about the diversity.
It's what helps us create aspace of inclusivity and
acceptance together.
The more comfortable and normalit is to acknowledge the vast
and varied relating we all do,the faster will shift to a
paradigm of conscious,intentional and diverse
relationships.
New episodes are released everyThursday.
(50:55):
Stay connected with me throughmy website, CarrieJeroslowcom,
Instagram or Tiktok.
Every relationship is as uniqueas you are.
Welcome to the Relationship Diversity Podcast,
where we celebrate, question andexplore all aspects of
relationship structure diversity, from solaramary to monogamy to
polyamory and everything inbetween, because every
relationship is as unique as youare.
We'll bust through societalprogramming to break open and
(00:24):
dissect everything we thought weknew about relationships, to
ask the challenging buttransformational questions who
am I and what do I really wantin my relationships?
I'm your guide, Ca Jarislow,bestselling author, speaker,
intuitive and coach.
Join me as we reimagine allthat our most intimate
(00:44):
relationships can become.
Today's episode is part of ourconversation series.
I'm just one voice in thisrelationship diversity movement
and it's important to bring moreunique perspectives into the
conversation.
Today I'll be talking with JoLeavitt all about swinging, what
(01:09):
it is, what makes it work andwhat are the challenges and
common myths about the lifestyle.
But first a little about her.
Joe is a lifestyle andconfidence coach.
She helps people build theirconfidence and embrace their bad
assery, especially, but notexclusively, swingers.
(01:29):
She's also the host of theConfidence Swinger Podcast.
Let's get into the conversation.
Hello everyone and welcome tothis episode of Relationship
Diversity Podcast.
I've got a great guest for youand I am so super excited about
this topic because, although Iknow about it on an intellectual
(01:52):
way.
I have never experienced it, soI am going to be learning right
along with you.
We have got Joe Levitt here whois going to talk all about
swinging.
We are going to learn together.
Welcome, j, to the podcast.
Jo Leavitt (02:09):
Thank you so much.
I'm so excited to be here.
It's definitely a topic that Ilove, so I'm excited to educate
your audience about it.
Carrie Jeroslow (02:17):
Yes, because with any kind of relationship
structure, the less we know, themore assumptions we make.
Education is so important andlearning about other people's
experiences helps to open ourmind, to have more compassion,
empathy and possibly interest.
Jo Leavitt (02:37):
Absolutely.
Yeah, there's so many stigmasand it really just boils down,
like you said, to a lack ofeducation, because you're going
to be a little bit afraid of thethings that you don't know
about and so you're going tomake those assumptions and most
of the time those are going tobe wrong.
I think this is great to beable to change those perceptions
(02:58):
and to get rid of that negativestigma that swinging has.
Carrie Jeroslow (03:04):
Yes, yes, we're going to tackle all these
things.
I always love to start andlearn about how people, how you,
got into doing this, coachingpeople in this way, about
swinging.
There's always a story and I'dlove to hear your story.
Jo Leavitt (03:26):
There always is.
I am 46, I'm married and I'vebeen with my husband for 18
years.
We've been married nine.
We've been together 18, andwe've actually been swinging
together for 17 of those.
We got into the lifestylebecause I had always had some
(03:47):
bicuriosity in myself.
I'd always had that littlevoice in the back of my head
that always wondered, but I hadnever felt secure enough in any
relationship, or even in myselfin any relationship, to openly
admit it to myself or to openlyadmit it to anybody else.
(04:08):
I went through some shittyrelationships when I was young,
but it changed when I got withmy husband, with my now husband,
because he just created thissafe space for me.
I like to say that he's createdhome for me and that's just it's
such a gift that he's given it,really allowed me the freedom
(04:32):
and the safety to explore, toeven admit it to myself and then
admit it to him.
He took it so well and I said Ireally think that this is a
thing, I really think that Ihave some bicuriosity, I think
I'm attracted to women.
He said, well then, let'sexplore that.
(04:53):
He actually found some swingerwebsites, that it's very similar
to dating websites and youcreate a profile.
We got started that way andit's been an amazing journey.
It's shifted and our dynamicshave shifted and our experiences
(05:17):
have changed.
Obviously, I'm definitelybisexual and I still
predominantly play with women.
That's still my focus but ithas shifted a little bit and
it's opened us up to newpossibilities of things A few
(05:38):
years ago.
So that's kind of how we gotstarted in swinging.
Carrie Jeroslow (05:41):
That was 17 years ago.
You said 17 years ago.
What was that?
2005?
No, wait, yeah, 2004?
.
Jo Leavitt (05:52):
Something like that, something like that.
Okay, so that was a while ago.
It's been a while.
It's been amazing.
Well, so a few years ago I sortof went through that.
My husband called it a midlifecrisis.
I called it like that spiritualawakening, really, where I got
(06:14):
to that point where I was, Ifelt like I had so many gifts to
offer the world that were notbeing fully utilized.
And you know, I had been in myjob for a long time and I
enjoyed it, but it didn't feedmy soul, like it wasn't what I
was put on this earth to do.
And so I went through a lot ofpersonal development, a lot of
reflection, and ultimately itled me to coaching and that was
(06:38):
just the perfect fit.
But at that point I stilldidn't know who my audience was.
I didn't know what that lookedlike.
At first I actually thought itwas career coaching and that
just didn't, it didn't clickwith me.
And my husband actually madelike an offhand comment about
coaching swingers and I was like, of course, like yes, obviously
(07:02):
.
And so the confident swingerwas born and it's been.
I've been in my business justunder a year Now.
I've been certified just undera year, and it's been such an
incredible journey.
Carrie Jeroslow (07:20):
Yeah, because now, having gone through your
own journey, you have an idea ofwhat other people who you know
have those curiosities, whetherit is about you know their
sexuality, or about therelationship structure and the
fear of being on the side of theterror and the unknown wanting
(07:44):
to go to the other side.
So that's, I'm sure that you'revery helpful with your clients
after having gone, traveled thatpath yourself.
Jo Leavitt (07:53):
Right, yeah, absolutely, and I've been in
this lifestyle a long time andI've seen a lot and I've learned
a lot and I've grown, not onlythrough my own experiences but
also observing other people'sdynamics, because obviously our
dynamic works for us, it's whatwe like.
But that doesn't mean that Idon't have experience with all
(08:15):
of these other dynamics that arein the lifestyle, and you know,
I have a lot of close friendsthat have very different
dynamics than I do and I've seentheir journeys as well, and so
which is also kind of helpful alittle bit seeing those things
from the outside, becausesometimes it's hard to see them
from the inside, when you'reexperiencing them.
Carrie Jeroslow (08:37):
Right, right, and I love that you kind of put
on, you know, your observer hatand watch all of that, because
it's very much what I talk aboutin relationship diversity.
You are your own unique personplus another unique person
equals a unique relationship andhow it shows up in the world.
Jo Leavitt (08:56):
Absolutely yeah.
And then when you well, youknow, when you bring other
people into that it can createthis, just this beautiful
tapestry, but it definitely doesbring its own challenges.
Carrie Jeroslow (09:11):
Oh yeah, as we both smile.
You can't see us, but we'reboth going.
Jo Leavitt (09:16):
Oh yes, it's my smile and you know, that was one
of the reasons why I felt sodrawn to coach in the lifestyle.
To coach other swingers isbecause it definitely presents
its own unique set of challenges.
And you, because that stigma isstill there, because that taboo
is still there.
People sometimes feel veryalone in that they don't feel
(09:37):
like there's anybody that theycan reach out to, because they
don't necessarily needcounseling, they don't need
therapy, they just need somebodyto understand and to help them
through the issues that they'regoing through, and that is the
magic of a coach.
Carrie Jeroslow (09:53):
Yes, yes, Because I think you know many
people feel very alone when theystart to explore these kinds of
things and even knowing, oh,someone else knows, kind of what
I'm going through is reallyhelpful.
I want to go back to just sobecause everyone may not know
(10:17):
how would you define swinging?
Jo Leavitt (10:21):
So my definition of swinging is when someone is
willing to open theirrelationship up to other sexual
partners.
So that could that could be awhole range of different things
and that may not evennecessarily be.
In my opinion, it may not evennecessarily be participating
(10:42):
contact wise with other people.
It could also includeexhibitionism and voyeurism as
well.
In my opinion, it's a bigumbrella.
Most people believe thatswinging is really when you are
having sexual contact with otherpeople outside of your
relationship, and there are alot of different dynamics in
(11:03):
that.
There's soft swap, which isincluding sexual contact that
does not include penetration,and then there's full swap,
which obviously does includethat penetration aspect, and
there's a lot of different, alot of room in the middle.
Carrie Jeroslow (11:22):
Right, there's a lot of nuances in scenarios.
Can you maybe give us a fewother scenarios of how swinging
could look?
Jo Leavitt (11:34):
Absolutely so there's there's parallel play as
well, so that would be you andyour partner playing just with
each other, but near anotherpartner, but you guys are not
actually swapping.
That's a really good way fornew people to get introduced to
it and to to increase theircomfort level.
And some people play together,some people play separate, they
(11:55):
play solo, some people play sameroom, so they want to be either
in the same room or on the samebed.
So it's sort of like a big pileand there's pros and cons of
that.
Some people prefer to playseparate, like sometimes it's
very distracting for them to seetheir partner with somebody
else, and so they prefer to bein a separate room.
Some people prefer same roof.
(12:18):
So that means that, as long asthey're in the same building and
they know that their partner issafe, it creates that safety
that they feel comfortable with,and some people just totally
play solo.
So it's really there's a lot ofdifferent ways.
There's a lot of differentdynamics.
Carrie Jeroslow (12:36):
Yeah, lots of different ways that it can show
up.
And if someone were to come toyou and say I'm interested in
swinging I've never done itbefore, is there a pathway?
Or do you talk to them aboutmaybe what is a turn on for them
and you start there Like how doyou navigate?
(12:58):
Like starting out?
Jo Leavitt (13:00):
Yeah, absolutely.
So.
I always tell everybody thatthe very first thing that you
need to work on is like your why.
That's the first thing that Iwork on with all of my clients,
regardless, is know your why.
You need to understand why thisis something that you want, and
it needs to be something thatyou want and not just something
that your partner wants, becauseif it's just something that
(13:22):
your partner wants, it is goingto cause resentment, it's going
to cause problems and it's notgoing to end well.
So my first step is always likeknow your why, know what you
want to get out of this, knowwhat it's going to bring to you
personally and know what it'sgoing to bring to your
relationship.
And then really, yeah, find outwhat that turn on is.
What is it that you like?
(13:43):
And for a lot of people,especially if they're just
starting out, bring that sexytalk up in the bedroom, make it
a fantasy and bring that up andsee if it's a turn on for both
of you guys.
Or you can bring in some pornthat's always a good way too or
there's a ton of podcasts outthere.
Carrie Jeroslow (14:03):
So it's always your podcast, the confidence
swing or podcast.
Go check it out.
Jo Leavitt (14:09):
Yeah, it's amazing.
Not that I'm biased or anything, but it is.
Podcasts are actually a greatway for you to start
conversations where nobodycreates this safe space for you
to feel comfortable sharing,because it's not either one of
you bringing it up, necessarily,it's this third party.
So when you're listening to ittogether you can be like, oh,
(14:32):
that's interesting, what do youthink about that without
somebody having to bring it up?
So that's kind of a good way tothe next step past.
That is really like figure outwhere your comfort level is and
then you have to explore that.
So that may mean going to aclub or a party or a meet and
(14:57):
greet with no expectations otherthan to just fill it out, just
see how you feel, see what theenvironment feels like, see how
you feel and your partner feels.
And it's really a good time tonot have any expectations about
playing that first time.
It's really just like a fact.
Seeking vision.
(15:17):
I tell my clients live withcuriosity.
So like make your choices andnotice all of the things.
Like.
This is obviously like a lotwith my with thought, work and
stuff.
But even in that kind of asituation, like go into it with
curiosity and non-judgment.
(15:38):
So you're just going to seewhat happens and there's no
right or wrong.
You're just noticing whathappens.
Carrie Jeroslow (15:45):
Yeah, we say I sign off every single episode.
Stay curious because when wesit in that curiosity, you know.
Then we become slightly like,removed from all the judgments
and the fears and the stigma,and we stay in this space of
openness.
Jo Leavitt (16:05):
Absolutely.
Yeah, I tell that with myclients so much too.
But a lot of what I work withwith my clients is thought work
and I said, if you focus on yourthoughts with curiosity, then
you are sort of removingyourself from them and you don't
feel so overwhelmed by theemotions because you're not
feeling the emotion so much asyou're noticing.
Carrie Jeroslow (16:27):
Right.
Jo Leavitt (16:28):
And it is a great distinction.
Carrie Jeroslow (16:30):
Yes, yes, so helpful.
What well?
I have two questions and I'mthinking about going in order.
So my first question is oncesomeone's decided, okay, we want
to go for it, how do peoplefind, because of all the stigma
it's so underground, which Ihope, with podcasts like yours
(16:54):
and mine, we start to bringacceptance into swinging
polyamory, et cetera,non-monogamy, but how do people
find places to go explore?
Jo Leavitt (17:08):
Right.
So, like I mentioned before,when we first got started, we
set up a profile on a website,and that is really a great way
to get started because you cango in and set up a profile, but
all of those sites also aregoing to list out events that
are going to be in your area.
So not only are you trying toconnect with other people on a
(17:32):
one-on-one sort of similar todating basis, but you're also
finding out about the events andthe meet and greet so you can
go meet people.
And there are several sites.
Some of them are more popularin some areas than others.
I'm in the Midwest and C4P,which is Club Four Play, is very
(17:53):
popular in this area and that'sthe one that we use quite a bit
.
But there are other websites aswell.
Sls is one and Cassidy BetLife,although that's more of like
BDSM, but there are a lot ofsites like that.
So I would definitely recommenddoing some searching and
(18:15):
finding out what those sites arethat are going to be popular in
your area, and if anybody has aquestion about that, I sort of
in one of my files I have a listof the websites that are more
popular in different areas.
So any of your listeners thatare interested can feel free to
email me and I can at least getthem started on which of those
(18:39):
sites are good for differentareas.
Because obviously, yeah, it'sgoing to be.
You're going to be moresuccessful if there are more
events going in your area, andsome are more popular than
others.
And also a great way isFacebook groups.
There are Facebook groupseverywhere.
Facebook groups are amazingbecause there are groups that
(19:00):
pop up all over the world.
Really, I'm assuming I haven'tsearched for ones
internationally, but I knowthere are so many domestically
here in the US and if you getinvolved in those groups, then
you're going to be meetingpeople more locally and you're
going to be finding out aboutevents, and that's really a
(19:22):
great place to start, becauseyou want to go to those.
You want to meet people.
Carrie Jeroslow (19:26):
That's kind of how it works.
Yeah, if you want to explore itand you want to go past the
kind of play fantasy play itwould be finding a group or
finding a place.
Jo Leavitt (19:39):
Right, you can't play with other people without
other people.
Carrie Jeroslow (19:41):
Right, right.
Well, jo is a great resource,so I'll have her email address
down in the show notes for youif you want to connect with her,
and I'm sure she'll be able tohelp you out.
So my next question is a commonquestion that I get, so I'm
curious what your answer is, andthat is let's say, one person
(20:04):
wants to explore swinging andthe other person in the
partnership does not.
What then?
Jo Leavitt (20:12):
You know it's funny that you say that.
Like I said, we've been swingingin the lifestyle for a long
time and it's always been likeI've always been leading that
because we started with it beingmy fantasy and it just feels a
lot more naturally to me and myhusband has always been the more
(20:33):
I don't want to say reluctant,but he's always been that person
that's not as interested, andwe actually did just do a
podcast episode together.
That was when one partner ismore interested in the lifestyle
than the other because he isthat more reluctant partner.
So, really, like with anything,you're different people and
(20:56):
you're coming at it withdifferent wants and different
needs and different desires.
So you really need to be veryopen and honest about those
things, and understanding whyyou have those wants and those
needs and those desires is goingto be super important, because
there may be other ways to fillthose needs that everybody is
(21:19):
happy with.
So it's super important to justbe open and be honest with one
another and to really exploreall of the possibilities, and it
can also be very helpful, ifyou're in that situation, to
have a coach or a mentor or anoutside perspective to help you
(21:41):
navigate that, because there maybe options that neither one of
you are seeing, because you'revery blinded by your own
expectations.
Carrie Jeroslow (21:49):
Right, and we I think I'm saying a collective
we want all or nothing.
You know, it's like I want itall.
And there's you know, there'susually something, and this is
why where I think what you talkabout of the first thing you do
is to help people determinetheir why, because when you have
that why, you can maybe come upwith this creative solution.
(22:15):
If both people feel heard andsafe to come up with this
creative solution, that will getyou both what you need in a way
that you both feel supportedand heard.
Jo Leavitt (22:26):
Absolutely, that's so important.
And you know, we've I've beenguilty of that too, even
recently, even now, you know,I've been guilty of having that
all or nothing mindset and I'mlike, when I get into my feels
and I'm like, well, I just can'tdo this at all, then because
you don't want this and so Ijust can't do this, and then I
step back and I'm like, ok,that's just that's my bitchy
(22:48):
little brain talking and that'snot the reality.
So let's reality check thatshit and let's come out this a
different way.
Carrie Jeroslow (22:57):
Yes, totally, I get in that place too.
I think it is really a commonand having the awareness that
maybe that's what where, like,the default go to is, and then
being able to pull back.
But also this is why I love theidea of having a coach,
specifically in something thatis so different from anything
you've ever done is that coachwill help you find these
(23:21):
creative solutions and make surethat each person feels heard
and seen and cared for.
Jo Leavitt (23:28):
Absolutely, and what I've found is very common is
one person will have thatinterest and people.
One person will have thatdesire, that curiosity, but
they'll be afraid to bring it upto their partner because they
don't know how that's going tobe received and they're really
afraid of hurting their partner.
And so they don't want theirpartner to receive that, as
(23:49):
though they're not good enoughor that they aren't meeting
their needs or that they wantsomebody else sexually.
And that's the huge roadblockfor most people having that
initial conversation.
Carrie Jeroslow (24:05):
Yes, that is very deeply ingrained cultural,
societal beliefs aboutrelationships.
Absolutely you have to be myeverything or else something's
really wrong, and it seemsunrealistic that anyone could be
that for anyone else.
Jo Leavitt (24:26):
It does.
It's sad that we think that andthen we get sucked into these
insecurities that if I'm notenough, if my partner wants
something else, then that mustmean that I'm not enough and
that means that I'm not worthy.
And so sad.
And it's not the way.
It's not true.
Carrie Jeroslow (24:48):
Right, right.
So a lot of the work thatyou're doing, even preparing
someone for this is about theirown self-worth and their
self-worth and self-love,self-acceptance, all that.
Jo Leavitt (25:02):
All of that.
Yeah, I am a lifestyle andconfidence coach and the reason
for that is because at the baseof really getting what you want
is that confidence, thatself-acceptance piece, that
self-love piece, and that's alsowhy it was led to coach in that
, using that confidence, thattool, that framework.
(25:25):
I don't know exactly what Iwant to say with that, but
that's really at the base of somany issues, is that, not that
self-doubt?
Carrie Jeroslow (25:38):
Right, right.
It's at the core of a lot ofthings.
Jo Leavitt (25:42):
It is, it is.
Carrie Jeroslow (25:44):
And I think it's a lifelong practice to find
the self-confidence I knowafter 53 years.
It's like there are times whenit's high, there are times when
it's low, and that's okay, andsometimes it fluctuates within
the 24 hours of a day, but it'sjust a constant thing to travel
(26:05):
and to learn about and to staycurious about as well who?
So I want to go back to theswinging a little bit and ask
you who do you think theswinging lifestyle really serves
Like?
Who is it really good for otherthan someone who has a real
interest in it?
Jo Leavitt (26:23):
Right, yes, so I will say that you need to be
very solid in your relationship.
If you have a troubledrelationship and you think that
swinging is going to solve it,that's like having a baby to fix
the marriage.
Carrie Jeroslow (26:40):
Oh yeah.
Jo Leavitt (26:40):
It does not work.
Carrie Jeroslow (26:42):
Yes.
Jo Leavitt (26:42):
It does not work.
So you need to have a solidfoundation, you need to have
trust, you need to have respectthose are super important and
you need to have goodcommunication.
And you may think that you havegood communication going into it
, but once you start swinging itis going to test you to the
(27:02):
limits and it's going to revealall of those spots.
I'm sure you understand this100%.
Yes, it requires so much, sosorry.
Let me go back.
Sometimes I rabbit hole.
So first of all, you need to besolid in your relationship.
So if you have a solidrelationship and it's just sort
(27:25):
of like it's lost its spark,it's lost its excitement a
little bit, you kind of feellike it's become mundane a
little bit and so you're lookinglike you already have a good,
solid relationship but you'relooking to just reignite it, and
that's a great.
I see a lot of people gettinginto it like that.
(27:47):
We just want to bring back thespark, the passion to our
relationship that we feel likewe've lost a little bit.
Also, people that are reallywanting to explore new areas of
sexuality men and women ortogether.
That could also be people thatare like we've been together for
(28:09):
many, many years and we haven'texplored other things Sexually
and so we want to try new thingsand we want to try them
together, and that's anotherreally good reason why people
get involved in the lifestyle orget started in swinging.
Carrie Jeroslow (28:27):
That's so great and, like you said when you
were describing all thedifferent ways that swinging
could show up, even going to aclub together with your partner
you know a sex club or a sexdinner party and just observing
and maybe getting ideas, youknow, maybe feeling turned on
(28:48):
and then bringing that back homethat it doesn't have to always
be.
I'm going to be having sex withother people to have it be
swinging.
Jo Leavitt (28:58):
Absolutely so much.
So many people go into it justbecause they love to flirt and
they like to feel sexy and theylike that sexually charged
atmosphere and then they want togo home and fuck their
partner's brains out.
Oh yeah, awesome.
Carrie Jeroslow (29:13):
Yes, yes, and I love broadening it up like that
because I think maybe thatmight allow people who never
thought that they could quiteopen up in that way, that gives
them maybe a little bit ofopening no pun intended or pun
intended to explore justsomething new for their
(29:38):
relationship.
Jo Leavitt (29:40):
Absolutely.
And you know, everybody isdifferent and everybody's
comfort level is different.
And some people get introducedto it and they want to go balls
to the wall and they want todive in head first and that
works for them and that's great.
And some people need to puttheir toes in the water.
Some people need to baby stepinto it, and that's great too.
It's really whatever makes youfeel most comfortable and most
(30:04):
accepting of the situation.
Carrie Jeroslow (30:06):
Right and do you also find, because I think
this is OK too, specificallymaybe in polyamory, which I'm a
little bit more versed to thanswinging, but that people can go
explore and then say you know,I'm glad we did that, but that's
not for me, that's not for us,and come back into a closed
(30:26):
arrangement?
Jo Leavitt (30:27):
Absolutely.
People can go and try that andthen say, you know, monogamy is
for us Like we are not this.
We tried it, we explored it andit just didn't fill the need
like we thought that it wouldand we are good with just being
monogamous again, absolutely.
Carrie Jeroslow (30:45):
Right.
I love that flow and fluiditybecause I think that there's a
lot of thinking out there thatif I go do this, this is how it
is going to be forever.
Jo Leavitt (30:57):
And there is a lot of people that take a step back
from the lifestyle for variousreasons throughout their journey
.
There have been years when Chadand I have not participated
with anybody else.
However, we have these amazingfriendships in this amazing
community that has been createdthat we would not give up for
(31:17):
anything.
So, even during those phaseswhen we have not played with
anybody else, we've still hadthat community.
We've still had thosefriendships that we treasure.
So we never really felt like wetotally stepped out of the
lifestyle.
But there have definitely beentimes that we did not
participate at all and we werefine with that.
Carrie Jeroslow (31:41):
Right.
Right, because there aremoments in our life that either
circumstantially, we're so busywe just cannot take on another
you know commitment or anotherexperience, or emotionally,
maybe we're just drainedemotionally because of the
chapter of life that we're inand being present with the
(32:03):
fluidity of life andcommunicating that will help to,
you know, people to stayconnected, couples to stay
connected, which I know is oneway that will make swinging
successful for people.
What are other ways?
What is needed to make theswinging experience successful?
(32:25):
And I don't look at successfulas like we did it and we're
going to do it for the rest ofour lives just like a feel good
experience.
That was a good experience.
Jo Leavitt (32:34):
Right yeah, success is everybody being happy with
the situation.
Carrie Jeroslow (32:38):
Right.
Jo Leavitt (32:38):
And everybody feeling like it was a good
experience that they want tocontinue with.
So, again, it really reallygoes back to communication, and
I know people are probably tiredof me saying that, but it's so
true.
You have to be able to havethat open, honest communication
and that is hard as fuck.
(32:59):
It is hard.
It is so hard to say somethingto your partner that you know is
going to hurt their feelings.
Carrie Jeroslow (33:08):
So scary.
Jo Leavitt (33:10):
It is, but it's needed.
It's needed to grow, likeyou're not saying at, you're not
giving that honesty out ofanger, out of hostility or out
of anything except for thedesire to love your partner and
to grow into your relationship.
So it really requires that open, honest communication and it
(33:31):
requires you sharing yourfeelings with your partner at
every step of the way.
And so when you're feelingjealous because that shit's
going to happen, you talk aboutit and you say, well, what were
the triggers, what brought thatup for me, and what did we enjoy
about this experience?
And what did we not enjoy aboutthis experience and what can we
(33:51):
learn from it and how can wemove forward.
I try to encourage people tonot see any situation in terms
of good or bad, but just interms of what can we learn and
how can we move forward.
Carrie Jeroslow (34:04):
Right, it's so helpful.
And then it takes all thejudgment that people are scared
to feel, or that's a lot ofpeople show other people's
judgment, so it's like it'sneither good or bad.
It's your experience.
Your experience is valid.
Let's talk about it and moveforward.
Jo Leavitt (34:23):
Absolutely so.
Communication is definitelyimportant and the other thing I
think that's equally importantis trust and respect.
So that means that if yourpartner is feeling a certain way
about something and not readyfor something yet, then you need
to respect where they are intheir journey.
And it's typically a rule ofthumb that you go as at the pace
(34:47):
of the slower partner, so yougo at their comfort level
instead of the person that isall involved to the wall.
You have to go at the pace ofthe less comfortable partner,
but I also encourage that lesscomfortable partner to push
themselves a little bit.
(35:07):
Change doesn't happen in yourcomfort zone.
Carrie Jeroslow (35:11):
So true, so true.
Yeah, and I love that you saythat, because I think it is
again the compromise.
We don't want to push someonetoo much if they're not ready,
but at the same time we want tobe stretching and expanding, and
so it's a dance.
(35:32):
It's a delicate dance and again, why I love the idea of working
with a coach like Joe?
Because one is, I think of itas like a doctor.
A doctor sees thousands ofpatients, so they know if
someone comes in with a soreshoulder, they have more
perspective of what's common,what's not common.
(35:55):
We're just sitting here with asore shoulder going oh my God,
I'm the only one with a soreshoulder.
This must mean this.
But if you're working with acoach who has so much experience
with different kinds ofscenarios, I think that there's
a comfort level in that to bring.
Like, no, this is normal.
And I'm going to just kind ofgently push you up to expand a
(36:17):
little bit and explore, and I'mgoing to hold you back a little
bit to see your partner, becauseyou love that partner and that
delicate dance.
Jo Leavitt (36:28):
Absolutely, and that is also why it's so important,
before you start, to know yourwhy, like know the reason why
you're doing this, because whenthings get icky and they get
sticky and they get hard, if Icome to you and you're like I
don't think I'm ready for this,then I'm going to ask you well,
what made you want to start?
What was your why?
Let's talk about your why,because that can help you
(36:51):
identify, like, where yourboundaries are and what you're
not okay with, and help youidentify what you are okay with
but you're just scared, and wecan also identify what those
fears are.
Carrie Jeroslow (37:05):
Right, and I think maybe most people's
ultimate fear is break up is andhow do you see that working it?
I mean, sometimes that happens.
It's not fun or comfortable inthe least bit, but it is.
(37:26):
I can't sugarcoat around it, itis a possibility, right?
Jo Leavitt (37:29):
Absolutely.
It is a possibility.
Breakups happen and I'm alsonot going to tell you that I
haven't seen instances wherepeople have broken up in the
lifestyle and gotten with theother person that they were
swinging with Like they fell inlove with somebody else.
This relationship broke up andthey ended up getting into a
(37:50):
relationship with somebody else.
It's a possibility.
But it's also a possibilitythat your partner could meet
somebody at the grocery storeand fall in love with them, or
they could meet somebody at workand fall in love with them.
Like you don't own your partnerand ultimately you should want
them to be happy in whatever wayfulfills them the most.
(38:11):
And sometimes that's not you,and I know that sucks and I know
that's hard, but that's alsojust the reality of it.
So, yeah, for sure, it'sdefinitely the big fear that a
lot of people are going to havewhen they go in is like what if
they replace me?
And that's also where thatconfidence comes in, that
acceptance in yourself is youknowing your worth and you don't
(38:35):
have those fears as much?
Carrie Jeroslow (38:37):
Yes, and relationships are really.
They are really wonderful andthey're also tricky and can be
challenging, regardless of whatstructure you are in or
practicing.
That is just how relationshipsare.
(38:58):
We are the most intimate withthat person and so a lot of
stuff comes up and I think thosepeople I see it in my kids,
even my kids can be theirabsolute self around me, more
than anyone else.
And a lot of times it's not themost beautiful part of them.
A lot of times it is, but a lotof times it's they have to be
(39:21):
on guard so much in their lifethat they come home and they
just need to be them, andsometimes that's tantrums and
those kind of things.
So I appreciate you going therewith me on that, because I
don't think that we should sugarcoat it.
And there are times when, evenin any kind of non-monogamous
(39:43):
relationship or in a monogamousrelationship, that you grow and
find that this relationship I'vegrown in another direction and
this person's grown in anotherdirection and it's not together
and there is a lot of timeswhere this kind of experience
can bring people together andcan help us grow together.
(40:05):
So I tend to always look at theworst case scenario and I think
a lot of people do, but there'salso could be a great case
scenario that comes up from thisexperience.
Jo Leavitt (40:16):
Absolutely so I will tell you what I've seen is the
people that have thatcommunication and they have that
trust and they have thatrespect and they're able to
navigate the difficulties.
It strengthens and intensifiestheir relationship so much Like
(40:36):
the lifestyle, and swinging withmy husband has brought our
communication to a whole anotherlevel.
It has brought our intimacy toa whole another level.
It has brought our trust to awhole another level.
Because you have to have thatto allow your partner to go
explore with somebody else andknow that they're still going to
(40:58):
come back to you or to believethat they are still going to
come back to you.
It takes a tremendous amount oftrust and respect and
acceptance and when yourrelationship has that and you're
able to go get your needsfilled and be happy and then
bring that joy back to yourrelationship, it just
(41:20):
exemplifies this joy.
So it doesn't take away fromyour relationship.
And that's the thing that peopledon't realize about the
lifestyle.
Is you think that you're goingto be outfucking other people
because you want to beoutfucking other people and it's
going to pull something awayfrom your relationship.
And really, when you're doingit the right way, when you're
doing it openly and honestly andyou're sharing.
(41:44):
It really has the oppositeeffect of that, because you're
happier, you're more open,you're more honest.
You don't fucking feel the needto hide.
Yeah, that is huge.
Like so many people are like,oh, am I attracted to that guy,
but I can't tell my husband.
Like, oh, I think he's hot, butI can't tell my husband.
When you have that level offreedom in your relationship,
(42:07):
you don't have to have thosesecrets.
Carrie Jeroslow (42:09):
Yeah.
Jo Leavitt (42:10):
That just creates this beautiful depth.
Carrie Jeroslow (42:14):
Yes, it's bonding, it's bonding.
Jo Leavitt (42:17):
It definitely is.
Carrie Jeroslow (42:18):
Yeah, oh, I love this conversation.
I do want to ask this onequestion before we sign off.
I want to know what myths aboutswinging myths, because these
are all the assumptions right Oflike people who have never done
it, who are like, oh my God,it's just like they're in this
(42:40):
dungeon which they could be, butthey're just like always going
out and having sex with allthese other people.
I mean, what are some of themyths that you find, and can you
debunk them for us?
Jo Leavitt (42:53):
Yeah.
So I will share a story.
My daughter-in-law actuallyouted me at her bachelorette
party.
We were, she was a littlestoned and we were playing like
one of those cute littlebachelorette party games where
it's like have you ever, willyou ever?
And my card that I got was bewith another girl, be with
(43:17):
another woman.
And so of course I'm drinkingand somebody notices and makes a
comment about it and she sortof came out of her high stupor
and she said are you in Chad'sswingers?
And like I don't have a goodpoker face at all, I don't lie,
I don't think quickly on my feet.
And so everybody else was like,oh yeah, we've kind of, we've
(43:42):
kind of wondered about that too.
And when I sort of confirmed itjust because my face obviously
like confirmed it, the firstquestion that I get is so do you
guys have key parties?
And that's what everybodythinks it is is like this old
70s style version of swinging,which is where you know, several
(44:02):
couples go to a house and theyput their keys in a bowl and
he's out and you drew, you gofuck them in the other room.
Oh, I'm not going to say thatkey parties exist, but I am
going to say that that is notthe majority of swinging.
The myths are that it's just abig, huge orgy.
(44:25):
The myths are that everybodythat's in the lifestyle is just
looking to fuck everybody else,or they're just looking to fuck
someone, that it's just anexcuse for them to cheat, and
that's definitely not what it is.
I'm trying to think of someother, you know it really like.
(44:45):
The big myth is that it's justa big orgy, it's just a big free
for all, and that could not befarther from the truth, because
I will tell you that I feelsafer at a swingers party than
anywhere in public.
I am safer from sexual assaultat a swingers party than I am
(45:09):
anywhere in public, because it'sa community and because
everybody there knows thatconsent is king and it is the
most important thing.
And if I'm ever feelinguncomfortable, I can say
something, and it doesn't matterif other people know me or not.
They're going to make sure thatI am safe.
Carrie Jeroslow (45:28):
Right.
I hear that in the BDSM andKing community as well.
Absolutely, it's way safer thananyone thinks because there's a
code of ethics, there is anagreement that you go through,
you know, before the playactually starts.
I think also, broadening yourdefinition of what swinging is
(45:49):
and how it can show up forpeople makes it, yes, about the
you know sex sometimes, but alsoabout the eroticism of just
seeing other people.
Even you know watching otherpeople have sex in real life,
you know, is very erotic forsome people and doesn't have
(46:09):
anything to do with them havingsex.
There's just such a variety ofhow swinging could show up in
someone's life.
Jo Leavitt (46:17):
Absolutely.
And you know, we didn't eventalk about singles in the
swinging world, because that's awhole.
Other thing is some people arejust looking for a woman, or
they're just looking for a manto bring into their bedroom, and
so there's definitely a placefor singles as well.
In my opinion, you don'tnecessarily have to be coupled
(46:39):
to be a swinger.
You just have to be willing toaccept sexuality on a non-normal
, non-society, on those terms.
Carrie Jeroslow (46:50):
I love that you bring that up.
I love that you bring that upbecause I talk a lot about the
structure that I've called soloamary, which is, I want you know
, my relationship with myself tobe the most important one and
to be prioritized, and this is away for someone who's
practicing solo amary to youknow get sexual needs met and
(47:13):
still maintain their single lifeAbsolutely.
Jo Leavitt (47:17):
Yeah, and it gets everybody's needs filled because
it gets that couple that'stheir desire, their fantasy,
their wants and their desires.
It gets those needs filled aswell.
And if it's as long aseverybody is open and honest
about it, then it's a great.
It's a great situation, it canbe a great situation.
Carrie Jeroslow (47:36):
Right, right.
Well, one last question.
First, I want to thank you somuch.
This has been so enlighteningand I've learned so much.
My question that I'd like toleave everyone with is what are
your hopes and dreams for theswinging community in the next
maybe 15, 20 years?
How would you like to see theevolution of the swinging
(47:59):
community travel experienceevolve?
Jo Leavitt (48:06):
Yeah, I really just want it to be more known and
more accepted.
I love that LGBTQ plus hasbrought.
There's been so much awarenessbrought to that and it's opened
people's eyes up and it's madeit so much more acceptable.
And I really want the lifestylein general including swinging,
(48:32):
including polyamory, includingBDSM, including all of those
those different dynamics I wantall of those to be understood
and accepted.
You don't have to agree with it, you don't have to participate
in it, for you to respect it andto accept it.
Carrie Jeroslow (48:53):
I love that.
I love that and I know that youare doing your part with your
podcast and your coaching, andso I thank you for doing that to
further relationship diversityand the acceptance of it, and I
want to encourage anyone who isinterested in exploring either
(49:14):
the swinging lifestyle or how tobecome more confident in your
relationships to please go checkout.
Joe.
She's got a 12 week one on oneto one program called.
You got to say it because it'sa good.
It's a good title.
Jo Leavitt (49:31):
Get out of your head and into their bed.
Carrie Jeroslow (49:33):
Get out of your head and into their bed.
Ah, what a great thing to leavea great slogan.
I love it and we will leave youwith that.
So if you have any interest toget out of your head and get
into their bed, go check out,joe.
All of her information will bein the show notes.
Joe, thank you so much, thankyou, Carrie.
Jo Leavitt (49:55):
This has been such a pleasure.
It's been so much fun.
Carrie Jeroslow (49:59):
It has been.
We'll have to do it againsometime.
Jo Leavitt (50:01):
Definitely.
Carrie Jeroslow (50:31):
The best thing about this program is that it's
not just about the diversity,but it's about the diversity.
It's what helps us create aspace of inclusivity and
acceptance together.
The more comfortable and normalit is to acknowledge the vast
and varied relating we all do,the faster will shift to a
paradigm of conscious,intentional and diverse
relationships.
New episodes are released everyThursday.
(50:55):
Stay connected with me throughmy website, CarrieJeroslowcom,
Instagram or Tiktok.
Every relationship is as uniqueas you are.
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