Stephanie talks to Jenny Toh, a life coach empowering introverted women. Jenny shares a fascinating story of an introvert turning life coach.
Jenny is an ICF ACC coach who is the director of River Life Coaching Pte. Ltd., her life coaching practice where she coaches individuals to define success on their own terms personally and professionally. Jenny is passionate about empowering introverted women to remain authentic. She is also a lawyer and a mother of three living in Singapore.
https://www.riverlifecoaching.com/appointments
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Everyone has resilience, but what does that mean and how to we use it in life and leadership? Join Stephanie Olson, expert in resiliency and trauma, every week as she talks to other experts living lives of resilience. Stephanie also shares her own stories of addictions, disordered eating, domestic and sexual violence, abandonment, and trauma; and shares the everyday struggles and joys of everyday life. As a wife, mom, and CEO she gives commentaries, and, sometimes a few rants, to shed light on what makes a person resilient. So, if you have experienced adversity in life in any way, and you want to learn how to better lead your family, your workplace, and, well, your life, this podcast is for you!
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Everyone has resilience, but what does that mean, and how do we use it in life and leadership? Join Stephanie Olson, an expert in resiliency and trauma, every week as she talks to other experts living lives of resilience. Stephanie also shares her own stories of addictions, disordered eating, domestic and sexual violence, abandonment, and trauma, and shares the everyday struggles and joys of everyday life. As a wife, mom, and CEO she gives commentaries and, sometimes, a few rants to shed light on what makes a person resilient. So, if you have experienced adversity in life in any way and want to learn how to better lead your family, your workplace, and, well, your life, this podcast is for you!
https://stephanieolson.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Stephanie Olson (00:03):
Welcome to resilience in life and
leadership with your hostStephanie Olson, speaker, author
addictions sexual violence andresilience expert. I am
Stephanie Olson Welcome toresilience in life and
leadership. I am very happy tohave Jenny toe with us. Jenny is
(00:23):
an ICF. ACC coach who is thedirector of river life coaching
her life coaching practice whereshe coaches individuals to
define success on their ownterms. Personally and
professionally. Jenny ispassionate about empowering
introverted women to remainauthentic. She is also a lawyer
and a mother of three inSingapore. Welcome, Jenny.
(00:46):
Hello, and welcome to resiliencein life and leadership. And I am
here with Jenny toe. Jenny,welcome to the show. I
appreciate you coming on.
Jenny Toh (00:54):
Hi, Stephanie. Thanks for having me. And even before
we started recording, we werediscussing what time zones are
we? Yes.
Stephanie Olson (01:02):
You are in a very different time. So you are
in Singapore, and I am in Omaha,Nebraska. So it's 8am where you
are right? It's 7pm where I am.
So yeah,
Jenny Toh (01:13):
it's amazing, right.
And when I've done podcasts forhosts in the US, it always seems
to be my morning. So I'll tellthem you know, I already know
the future. So it's Fridaymorning over here. It's
Stephanie Olson (01:25):
how to go for me. It's gonna be fine. Yes.
Excellent. Okay, that is good tohear any lottery tickets? I
should
Jenny Toh (01:33):
wish I wish. I wish I could tell you that. The weather
will be good. Okay.
Stephanie Olson (01:40):
Well, if it is, then you are a miracle worker,
because it's failing where I am.
Oh, no.
Jenny Toh (01:48):
This is wonderful that we can connect. Right? Yes,
technology. And yeah,
Stephanie Olson (01:52):
I love it. i And I love the fact. I mean,
COVID was a horrible thing. Thepandemic has been terrible. But
I think the one thing that hasreally given us as a world is
just the ability to connect, Imean, we have that ability, but
people weren't using it to theirfull advantage. And so to be
(02:13):
able to have conversations, youknow, with you and Singapore and
me and Nebraska, I mean thatthat would have been unheard of
years ago. So it's fantastic.
Jenny Toh (02:22):
And a belief that, you know, because we're both
humans, right, there arecommonalities. So So let's,
let's see what we can explore.
Stephanie Olson (02:29):
I love it.
Okay, so I absolutely love whatyou're doing, because I think it
I have not heard a whole lotabout coaches that are
specifically coachingintroverted women, and I think
that is absolutely. It'sabsolutely fantastic. And
really, what a what a greatniche that you are in. So tell
(02:53):
me, how did you come to thisplace in your life?
Jenny Toh (02:59):
Okay, okay. So that's like my story, I will. I like to
think, you know, how can I shotthe nets? To listeners, I didn't
start off as a life coach, I, Iam still a lawyer. So I've been
in the legal industry for morethan 25 years, I still do some
legal consulting business on thesite, because that is what
(03:22):
challenges me intellectually. Sothat's, that's the rational part
of me that stimulated, I wentinto coaching because I am a
Christian. And I believe thatthis is what God has called me
into in this season of my life.
So of course, he caught me sometime back, but me being rational
and practical, I have a fulltime job. I've got a family with
three kids. I'm like, No, rightnow. You know, I'm in my comfort
(03:42):
zone. Well, don't don't talk tome about coaching. But the seed
was planted the desire to coachand I find opportunities to
coach in the organizations,although informally, and I find
that that really energizes mewhen I see my subordinates
getting from a good place,getting from good to great and
(04:05):
being unstuck. So I'm thinking,okay, there is definitely
something there. But there'salso that fear of like, do I
really want to go into this all,all of myself into it. So it was
around when in 2018, that I feltthat I couldn't put it off any
longer. So I discussed myhusband, we prayed about that.
And that's when I decided tostart training as a coach. So
being a lawyer, as you know,Stephanie has a lot of things
(04:28):
you need to comply with.
Education Certification, youknow, and all that. And when I
researched on what does it taketo be a life coach, you know,
this, I didn't want to be anexecutive coach. I really wanted
to impact people from theperspective of their life. Day
to day. Yeah. And I foundcourses on Facebook as like,
(04:49):
Okay. Sign up for 1499 costs andbecome a coder, but that's not
for me. So I found this globalorganization called
International CoachingFederation. So they don't run
courses, but schools areaccredited by them. And then
from their website, I found alist of schools that are
accredited. I explored them. Iwanted to actually study in
(05:11):
Singapore itself itself.
However, the face to faceclasses for people who are
working is at night, and Icouldn't see how I could balance
that because I need to be homewith my kids and my family. So I
discovered the school inAustralia, and this was before
COVID. And I was thinking, isthis a scam? Because the
investments quite big, thatvirtually so the lady who the
(05:32):
salesperson was based in HongKong, I had lengthy
conversations with her. And shesaid in the third call, that
sales coach said, Jenny, whydon't you take the leap of
faith? And that was just it. I'mlike, why am I doubting so much?
So I went into the training thattook about a year, and I got
credential after shortly afterthat. And I was planning to
(05:54):
launch my business in 2020,without knowing that the
pandemic hits. So the pandemichits, and I asked God, do I do
this? Or do I still wait, then Ireflected, I've actually waited
quite a bit before I startedthis journey. And I just
decided, okay, let's, let's justdo it, because he's brought me
this far. So let's just do it.
(06:16):
It's definitely if I had waited,I will still be waiting now.
Right? Because of my business,I'm happy to say it's actually
two years old now, because Istarted in April 2020. So it's
two years old now. So that's howI became a life coach. And in
the beginning, when you're new,and you're starting your
business, you just wanted tocoach everyone, because there's
this fear, like, you know, if Idon't open up to everyone, no
(06:39):
one's gonna know me. But that'sthe reverse is, is actually more
true. Because when you get veryfocused on your message, you
know, who you are really, youknow, passionate about serving,
it's not that I don't coachother people. But because I'm an
introvert myself, and I know thestruggles that an introvert goes
through. That's when I feelthat, you know, I don't want
other introverts out there tofeel that no one understands us,
(07:02):
right? No one really gets us. SoI may not have the same life
experiences as each introvertbecause we're all different, but
I do have some inkling of whatgoes on in their thinking and
what they believe and all that.
So that's why you know, I'mputting myself out there as a
coach for introverts. However,the funny story is that my first
client is, is an extrovert. Iwas in I think, in July, when I
(07:26):
first started, and she saw meposting in LinkedIn, you know,
about women empowerment, andabout introversion, and she
scheduled a discovery call meand she said to me, first off, I
need to confess I'm anextrovert. Is that okay? That,
that I didn't want to tell herthat you're my first client. So
yes,
Stephanie Olson (07:47):
yeah, I'll take it.
Jenny Toh (07:50):
And she's been a very faithful client. She's been
promoting me on her own accord,you know, and things like that.
And I really see that, you know,she's coaching has really
benefited her as a person and asa positive ripple effect around
her, because of the changes inher so. So again, as you can
see, I'm very passionate aboutcoaching, believe in the good
(08:13):
work that it does in people. Ilove
Stephanie Olson (08:15):
that. So how do people find you? So you said you
were on LinkedIn and and shereached out to you, is that
typically how you promote yourbusiness?
Jenny Toh (08:27):
Yes, so I'm on LinkedIn, I am also on Facebook,
I guess, because I coachintroverted professional women,
they tend to hang out inLinkedIn more often not to say
that I don't have followers inFacebook, so they can find me on
the river life coaching. That'smy business. And also my name,
Jenny, toe to H and I have awebsite, triple W river life
(08:48):
coaching.com. I also run freewebinars on I'm quite passionate
about women empowerment, aswell, as I run through webinars
on gender bias issues. I didquite a lot of free webinars
during either InternationalWomen's Day, last month, and
that dad had quite a goodturnout. So that one is not a
marketing gig. For me, I'm doingit because I'm quite passionate,
(09:12):
but it also helps because itgets people to know me, because,
you know, if someone wants topartner with me as a coach, they
need to know me first. Right?
Absolutely. This kind ofplatform will get to know me,
and that's why I'm also doingpodcasts, so that people can
know me and see who I really am.
Stephanie Olson (09:29):
That is That is great. That is great and hard
for an introvert. Right? I mean,that is challenging. So I love
actually and coaching isalthough it's, it's, you know,
one on work, and it's very it'sreally about really getting the
people you're coaching todetermine what they need for
(09:51):
their life. Isn't that is thatcorrect?
Jenny Toh (09:54):
Yes. Yeah. So I think yeah, it will be worthwhile for
me just explain a bit thedifferences between counseling
coaching, mentoring, right andconsulting. So consulting is
quite easy because I don't thinkpeople confuse coaching and
consulting consulting trainingis like I hire you, Stephanie
uncoming. And you give me asolution. So there's no even
talking about, you know, whatcan God do? And what can
(10:14):
Stephanie provide for thissituation, and you provide a
solution. So that's consultingand training of courses,
teaching. Mentoring is more likeyou are 510 years ahead of me in
the same career, or in the sameorganization, and you mentor me
by sharing your wisdom and youradvice. So the hierarchy that's
like, what mostly a parent childbut the mentor is usually more
Stephanie Olson (10:37):
authority? And yeah, yeah, yes. Although
there's this trend
Jenny Toh (10:41):
now about reversal mentor, which is, an older
person gets mentored by ayounger person, because the
younger person is much more techsavvy. So I've been reading
articles about reversal,mentoring, which is quite
interesting. So those thingshave changed, right. So that's
mentoring. And the closest toprofessions is probably being a
(11:03):
therapist, counselor, and an acoach. And they often overlap
because both help the individualget to a better place. The
easiest way to understand it isfor counseling is a deep rooted
emotional issue, pain or trauma.
And the counselor really goesback to the past helps you
understand when was the firsttime this happened to you, and
(11:24):
what when there and what wasgoing on. And it's not that
coaching doesn't explore anxietyor stress, or you know, some
people say, I've got a mild caseof depression by collegiate they
just had a bad day. So we do goback in a bit just to explore,
but when I hear that issue isreally deep rooted, I will ask
that person, have you seen atherapist? Would you consider
seeing a therapist because I'mnot a licensed counselor or
(11:46):
therapist? I can't do that. So Iam quite mindful about that.
Yeah. So they want the person toheal from that emotional pain.
And if that person has healed,then the person's like, Okay, I
think I'm a good place. Now, Ireally don't know what to do
next. And that's a goodpartnership with a coach, coach
can come in and help you, okay,so you are dealing with things,
you seem to be better. Now youcan move forward, whether in
(12:09):
life and a career or whether inyour personal growth. So a coach
comes and helps you reflect onwhat you appreciate today. So I
really like to encourage myclients to appreciate their
present because sometimes we'rethinking, we regret our past. We
look forward to our future, wekind of forgot what's happening
to us right now. Like today now,doesn't matter. I just want to
follow it. I'm looking at theback all the time, right. So a
(12:31):
lot of my coaching sessions, Iask them what's going well for
you today, and that stops thembecause they really have to
think, Okay, what's going well,yeah, when they reflect what's
going well, the energy changes,and they're more positive, and
then we can say, Okay, today'sgood. What do you think can be
better next month? What do youhope to achieve next month? So
coaching moves forward, and it'smore forward looking. It's not
(12:53):
that we always push the clientsto set goals forward. But I also
realize that if you're movingthrough life aimlessly without a
purpose, without goals, theneveryday just seems meaningless.
So at least if you have a goal,that's something to work towards
to it's just human nature. Yes.
Great.
Stephanie Olson (13:11):
So what is an introvert? I know we hear about
introverts and and we there areso many people who would say
they're introverts, but youmight look at them. And one of
them say, No, you are not anintrovert. So what is an
introvert?
Jenny Toh (13:27):
Okay, I'll explain what I've read and what I
understand and what Iexperienced myself, and you tell
me whether that's that's you ornot, so a lot of people say, Oh,
they're shy. So yes, I was a shykid. But shyness is something
you can learn to outgrow.
Because as you grow older, yougain confidence and you see life
differently. You can overcomeshyness. introversion and
extraversion is where younaturally draw your energy from.
(13:50):
So an introvert I'm spendingtime with you. I'm talking to
people in webinars then afterthat, if I really don't spend
time by myself, locked myself inmy room, keep my kids at bay and
all that I actually get aheadache so it's my energy is
like so low that I get aheadache I get grumpy so my kids
know that. If I'm talking to alot of people, I do need a
(14:11):
sustained 20 minutes break. So Irecharged by drawing internally
and I like you know, just beingquiet and just being an
extrovert doesn't mean that theyhave to be with people 24/7 It's
just an extrovert finds thatthey draw the energy from
others. So when they're out withpeople, they get energized and
when the evening is over, theystill want to go home because
(14:33):
the energy is there the pool, sothey want to hang out a bit
more. And I have a lot offriends who are extroverted and
I always have to say, Okay, I'vespent here I love you know, but
before I understood this, Iactually felt guilty. And I
actually felt bad because I'mthinking I like these people,
but I can't seem to carry ontalking to them after a while. I
(14:56):
really like some He's outbecause I, I find it difficult
and I didn't understand where Idraw my energy from that. So I
went through this period offeeling very guilty, I have
something wrong with me, youknow what was wrong, you know,
their social skills I need topick up. And now I'm definitely
more relaxed about it. And Ialso encourage your listeners or
anyone who's hearing this andsay that it's okay, we all have
(15:20):
our thresholds. So even forextroverts, there is a threshold
when right, okay, that's enough,right? Because we're all people,
and introversion extroversion,we don't have to box ourselves
in. So that's like a spectrum.
So like you said, you being anintrovert, no one would know
you're an introvert because youare connected to your purpose.
So when you speak passionatelyabout what you do, and what you
(15:44):
care about, that's where theintroversion sort of, like
mostly put aside, but you'rewilling to be extroverted for
the purposes, right, you know,speaking into your purpose.
Stephanie Olson (15:56):
Yeah, that's so true. And for years, I actually
assumed that I was an extrovert,because I've never really been
shy. And, and just like yousaid, that's kind of the
mindset, introverts are alwaysshy. I had never really been
shy, and I do well, in a crowd,I can, that working and things
(16:21):
like that meeting people, itdrains me, but I do it well. And
so when, when I started to reada little bit about introverts
and extroverts, and reallystarted to look at that, I was
like, Oh, my gosh, I am actuallynot an extrovert. I'm an
introvert because I need when Iget refueled, it's time by
(16:43):
myself. It's being alone. It's,it's that, you know, I'll go
speak to a group of people, andhave a great time. And it's
wonderful, but then I have gotto be by myself. And exactly,
yeah, that made so much sense.
So people today, I will tellpeople, and I always add social
introverts, so they, so theyunderstand, but also you're not
(17:06):
an introvert and like, Yes,really? I am.
Jenny Toh (17:12):
Yes, it's like, if you carry on talking with me for
another hour or so, I'll besaying, I've got to go,
Stephanie Olson (17:19):
I will be.
Exactly. That's exactly. It'slike, okay, I'm done. I, my
bedtime is like, you know, 830.
So I'm good to go. So I do Ilove that. So what are the
issues then? Especially whenyou're talking about women
empowerment, and women andleadership or whatever that may
(17:41):
be? What are some of the issuesthat introverts deal with?
Jenny Toh (17:46):
Because we're very reflective, and because we
introspect a lot, and, and forwomen, we tend to be quite
critical as well. So a lot ofthings remain in our head,
right? We mull about that, andwe toy about that in a world,
everything else is going onexternally. You don't put your
ideas out. And sometimes themoment just passes. So I've
(18:08):
coached clients who were told tobe more visible by their manager
who says that, you know, wereally need to hear what you
say, because I know you havethings to say, but it's not
coming up. And she feels that,you know, it's not 100% Good
enough, you know, for her isn'tgood enough. So I coached them
to not focus on themselves somuch. Yes, you can introspect,
(18:31):
you can mull about right. Sointroverts need a lot of
preparation, especially forpresentations or speaking of a
meeting. So if the person hasprepared, they will be able to
speak out in meetings, there arechallenges those brainstorming
meetings are where you gotmeetings with extroverted,
talking, extroverts justtalking, there is no window of
opportunity for them to speak upand to push themselves to be
(18:51):
spontaneous and to speak up.
They hold themselves back. Soeven for those kind of
spontaneous meetings, you doneed to plan so I practically
effectual situation was that,you know, I told her, could you
actually tell your manager tocall on you? So I'm like, okay,
okay, that's a great idea. youpartner with your manager in the
back like Mr. Meetings, themanager calls on you, and you
(19:13):
know, that he will call on you,and you've prepared some things.
So that's just for you to getthat initial confidence, you
know, you probably tell him thatI feel bad. You know, not that
comfortable to speak on my ownyet, you know, especially if
you're new to a team and yourteam is very extroverted, so he
can call on us like, Stephanie,okay, we've heard about what Bob
and John has said, what aboutyou? What's your view on it? And
(19:34):
then you speak and then you seehow it goes. So a lot of times,
I tell my clients that you needto shift the focus outwards.
What is what is that personrequiring of you? If the
information if you're supposedto prepare a sales report? Does
the person need to know like theorigins of that particular
product? Because if a sales guy,he just needs to know how can I
(19:57):
pitch to my client and you arethe Put up expert, right? So you
don't need to be perfect. Youcould just give her three
points. But she's saying thatoh, yeah, but I need to be
really certain of everything. Isaid that info if that is the
purpose, that's more for you.
It's not for that recipient.
Right. So it's justunderstanding what the recipient
of that information once Yeah.
(20:17):
So I mean, these are just verypractical things for the
workplace, I guess in general,is tell yourself if I need to
ask my question this question tomyself many times when I started
my business, and even now if Ihold everything back in, who am
I depriving of its benefits? Solet's just say I'm talking about
introversion, but I feel shy, orI feel awkward. I don't talk
(20:38):
about that. So imagine all thelisteners out there who are
introverts who are struggling tosay, whether we understand them,
so I'm holding back thissharing, right, because as you
know, when we talk about that wefeel less alone, especially if
someone like us definitely say,hey, yeah, Jamie, I know, I hear
you, I get you and yourlisteners will be like, Wow,
okay, someone else is goingthrough the same thing as me. So
(20:59):
when you focus on how you canhelp another person that will,
you know, get you motivated tosay what you need to say,
Stephanie Olson (21:07):
wow, you know, it's so interesting, because
when my oldest was really young,she's 21 Now, and when she was
she was in elementary school,she was so shy, you could almost
see her turn into herself. Imean, it was just visible. And,
(21:31):
and, you know, definitely,obviously a self confidence
issue. That was that was beingexperienced, and she was a dish,
she's a dancer. And so when shewould go into a class, and there
(21:52):
were, she would be, you know,really internal, and just very,
and so I talked to her one day,and I said, you know, everyone
in that room probably feels theexact same way you do, that they
are feeling, you know, selfconscious, they, especially for
things like auditions, or theymay not feel it, you know,
(22:15):
secure in themselves, they maynot have confidence. But the
difference is how people displaythat. And some people go in and
just display that with, youknow, with confidence, whether
they have it internally, orwhether they're just portraying
confidence, who knows. Buthaving that conversation really
(22:40):
changed the perception of whatit means to be confident what it
means to be shy, and that youcan actually behave in a way
that you don't feel internallyand that it changed the
trajectory of her dancingcareer. So I think that
(23:01):
sometimes we we think we have tobehave in a way that we feel,
and we don't,
Jenny Toh (23:09):
that says beautiful, Stephanie, thanks for sharing
that. And a lot of times is wecan acknowledge that we feel
these things like for example,your daughter in a dance
audition, what is the purposethat she's therefore she's there
to give her best for thetransportation. So when you
really reconnect with thatpurpose, it doesn't matter.
You're not competing withothers, you know, you just want
to do your best if you let go oflike being competitive or
(23:33):
comparison. So I mean,unfortunately, you know,
comparing yourself with others,it's very common. Yeah, we all
do we all do. We all do it. Weall do it. Yeah. If you visit a
Facebook page, I remember, yearsago, I was joking. My husband, I
said, they have the nicest housethat my husband said, would
anyone post a messy living room?
No, I think that the pandemic,that we were the pandemic, a lot
(23:56):
of people have posted theirmessy living room, right?
Because I think but before thatfor a nice living, right? My
husband said, you know, peopleonly post good things on social
media. So even for adults likeus, we tend to compare as well.
So, a lot of times, introvertswill introspect and like I'm not
good enough, you know, she cando all that I can do all that so
you are too much in yourself,recognize that you are thinking
(24:19):
that and then focus on what youneed to do whether it's at work
or whether it's in your life,what is it that you really need
to do if you keep holdingyourself back? How would that
feel one month down the road twomonths prior and that's what I
asked myself when I was thinkingabout launching the business I
was thinking no I've come thisfar right? If I don't do it,
then the what if it's going tokill me, so I need to do it.
(24:41):
Yes, it's scary. You You don'tknow what's really going to
happen but you put yourself outthere. Take one small step
outside your comfort zone andbefore you know it that becomes
your new comfort zone. You'relike okay, why was I scared? You
know, in the beginning, you pushyourself one step outside Never
tell my clients, okay? If youwant to be a CEO in 10 years
(25:01):
time, you know, start, startseeing what that looks like,
Yes, it's good to just imaginethat but then you, you work
yourself backwards. If I want tobe CEO in 10 years time, what
skills do I need now? Right? DoI need to speak now? What do I
need to do a bit differentlynow. So it can be small steps
now leading up towards your biggoal.
Stephanie Olson (25:21):
That's great.
Now, how long do you typicallywork with a client?
Jenny Toh (25:25):
Oh, it depends, like what you said in the beginning
is very client centric. So itdepends on the client's goal. So
I have had, like clients hascome to me for two or three
sessions, because they need tohave a performance review
conversation, that's all theyneeded, because they can discuss
with their colleagues because itcan go to the manager and say,
let me bounce these ideas off ofyou. So that's very specific. So
(25:47):
you don't need a long coachingsession. Whereas there are
clients who's been with me forsix months and more, because
they're thinking more about thelife purpose, what they really
want for their lives. And itcovers all angles. Usually,
women want to start with theircareers, because they feel that
that's where they need the mosthelp. But after that, they
realize that, okay, it's morethan career. It's also personal
(26:08):
growth. It's also how do I showup, as you know, in the family,
whether your daughter, sister, awife, or mother, you know,
what's your role in the family,and some people feel that there
must be more to this, I've got agood job. I've got a good
family, but I want to givesomething to the community. So
I've had people come to me andsay, I need to do more, but I
(26:28):
don't know what. Yeah, so soit's a lot of different topics
that people bring. And I thinkultimately, it's just trying to
find, what's your identity? Andin this place that you put in,
yeah,
Stephanie Olson (26:43):
that's good. Is there any time where people
would just continue coaching orcoaching on this topic? Now, I'm
going to move to this topic. Andnow I'm going to move to this
topic that you have a coach forlife? Well, you don't want to
that's kind of the opposite ofcoaching, right?
Jenny Toh (27:04):
And I'm not saying I'm not saying like, it's like a
parent child relationship,because a coach client
relationship, we are equals, I'myour accountability partner. I'm
your sounding board. I'm the onewho's not in your life. And yet,
you know, you are comfortable totell me everything, possibly
even things that you don't tellanyone else because its own your
thoughts, especially forintroverts, they don't tell
(27:25):
these things to anyone else,because they're worried that
what will people think? So thatthe power in coaching is
providing this safe space of nonjudgement and really being
empathetic? So, yes, there will,there will be issues where you
think like, Okay, I'm done withthis, I want to do this. I've
coached clients who say, I'vegot top three things that I want
to work on. So let's start. Sothe very focus, let's start with
(27:46):
this first thing. And once we'redone, work on the second day, I
did this study. And the otherhand, I've got clients who are
like, I really don't know whatto talk about. So can you tell
me what I should be coached on?
And I don't give the answers. Ijust tell them, Well, look at
your life right now, you know,where do you think you add? What
do you think you're reallyenjoying? What do you think you
could improve? So we can havethat kind of initial
(28:07):
conversation for them toidentify what areas they want to
grow in? I think the beauty iswhen the client says, I don't
need you anymore journey,because I'm good of all the
things that we've talked about,I now know my own strengths, I
now have the inner resources, Inow know the direction, I might
come back to you six months downthe road. Baseball. So you can
(28:28):
say is a start stop type ofrelationship. If you get a good
foundation, you go ahead. Andthen you think that okay, maybe
I want to come back andreevaluate my goals. But I don't
believe in like, you know, I'myour lifelong coach. Because
ultimately, it's your life,right? I am just here to help
you for this season of yourlife.
Stephanie Olson (28:50):
You're kind of a guide, just to push it along
the way. Yeah,
Jenny Toh (28:55):
I would say that I am your traveling partner, you will
tell me where you want to go. SoI'm never in the driver's seat.
And now I'm in the passengerseat, you're driving and of
course, you know, safety first.
We talk a lot about trust andsafety in a coaching session. So
whatever you tell me isconfidential and never be used
anywhere else. So it's more likeyou're driving, you're so
(29:17):
focused on the destination andsay, why don't we stop for a
while, take a break. See what'saround you. And how do you feel?
Because sometimes we're sofocused, we are driving towards
our goal, ignoring everythingbeside and for women, we rarely
celebrate our successes. It'slike I don't think I'm
successful yet. What do you meanyou're not successful? If your
best friend looks at you rightnow, what would she say? It's
(29:39):
easier for us to be kindersupportive, more empathetic
towards others. We are so hardon ourselves.
Stephanie Olson (29:47):
Absolutely. Oh, wow. That's good. That's really
good. So you have obviously comea long way in your life. You are
successful, you are doing thingsthat not only They really
probably empower you but empowerothers. And that is amazing.
What would you say to LittleJenny? Little Jenny?
Jenny Toh (30:11):
I do I do have little Jenny's. I mean, I have two
girls and the younger me
Stephanie Olson (30:17):
right? Your Jedi? Yes, it's the little you
that if you could go back andand give your little Jedi advice
or you I guess what what wouldyou say?
Jenny Toh (30:31):
Don't worry so much does if I reflect I worried a
lot. And I think when I was, youknow, really in the legal
career, it was my training tolook out for worst case
scenarios, right. So in theprofessional side, I'm always
looking for Worst case scenarioso that I can plan my case,
because I was a trial attorney.
So it's always like, what's theperson gonna say, you know, so I
need to defend my case, I needto prepare my case, you know, so
(30:54):
that it's foolproof. And thenthat trickle into life as well.
Well, yeah, and training. But Ithink even as a child because I
was shy and introverted, a lotof it was in my head. So I was
always preparing. Like, if I saythis, what will people think and
all that so I worried a lot. AndI think as I grew up, but that
is still that trip, and I wouldtell my younger self, you know,
(31:15):
don't worry so much things,things will work out. It may not
work out the way you want it.
Right. But it will work out someright. So that's what I'm
telling myself when when youknow, I start worrying again,
then you know what's going tohappen? Like, okay, you don't
worry, God's got this. Yes. Youjust you just do your fun. Yes,
do your part.
Stephanie Olson (31:35):
That is so I've just loved this conversation. I
think what you do is sofascinating, because coaching, I
mean, there are coaches allover, but to coach women that,
you know, have that introverted,and obviously you can coach
extroverts as well. But I thinkthere is such an important piece
(31:58):
to that. And what an amazingbecause it only an introvert
truly would know how to reallyunderstand what another
introvert is experiencing. And Ithink that is really powerful. I
love that.
Jenny Toh (32:16):
We would never push another introvert to say go out
there just yeah, just speak, doit. Yeah, just do it. It doesn't
work. Yes, ultimately, the goalis to just do it. But I
encourage my clients to reflect,you know how to do it in their
own way. And yes, you may haveto put on an extrovert that's
but if it's like a half an hourmeeting, that's when you put out
(32:39):
your most extroverted self, buthow do you regain your energy
after that, so that you don'tfeel that? Oh, you know, I just
put on a show. I'm so fake. It'snot that you were extroverted
for that period, because therewas a purpose for it. What was
that purpose? So you anchor inthat purpose, clearly. Then
after that you do what you needto get your energy back? Yeah,
Stephanie Olson (33:00):
that is really good. Okay, final question. What
does resilience mean to you?
Jenny Toh (33:09):
Well, the standard dictionary meaning is the
ability to bounce back, right?
Interesting that you can sharewith us. I did run workshops on
resilience in 2020. Because Ithink that was like the most
like the trending topic. Butyeah, people needed to hear
that. And I was runningwebinars, I was doing workshop,
and I asked someone, you know,what, do you think your? Are you
resilient? And then she said,No, I'm not, you know, so I
(33:33):
said, What do you understand byresilience that she said someone
strong, and I'm not strong. Sothen I take her through her life
experiences, what she wentthrough really specific examples
each moment and all that andafter she said, all that, I
said, I hear an extremelyresilient person, because you
went through ABCD and here youare today talking to me. And she
(33:55):
was just dumbfounded. She said,I didn't know that was
resilient. That was just memaking the most of what I can.
So people have a misconceptionthat resilience is the strong
man or the strong man who justbrave through it all. No, we are
all struggling is just that whenlife hits us, or life throws us
a curveball what happens? Yes,you you get knocked down and you
(34:18):
spend time being knocked down.
But after that, if you're ableto say, okay, what can I do with
this? What can I learn or growfrom this and then you take
small steps to you know, to growfrom it, or to learn from it or
even to share your experiencesfrom it. So a lot of people they
did talk about this, what theygo through, you know, in
(34:40):
podcasts and blogs and forpurposes of encouraging others
to say that you're not alone. Sofor me resilience, we were all
resilient. It's just that whatwhat do you make of the
circumstances that you're inwhether you know, you, you bring
yourself out of it, or yourealize that I need help, that's
also resilience becauseresilience doesn't mean, oh, I'm
(35:02):
stuck in this by myself. I don'tknow, why do I'll just stay
stuck. Resilience is alsoresourcefulness. So I'm stuck. I
reached out to another coachFred to say, Hey, I'm really
stuck in what can I do? And thenwhen we talk about that it
helps. So yeah, I mean, it'svery broad definition, I would
say, you know, we're allresilient is just how you deal
(35:23):
with the circumstances thatyou're in.
Stephanie Olson (35:24):
That is I love that. That is great. Now, Jenny
one more time, how can peoplefind you?
Jenny Toh (35:30):
Okay, so I have a website, triple W river life
coaching.com. I'm on Facebookand LinkedIn under the company,
which is real life coaching, oryou can connect with me
personally, as well undergenital and I'm sure you gonna
put all this in your show notesas
Stephanie Olson (35:43):
well.
Absolutely. I want to do that.
And I've just, I've loved thisconversation. I appreciate what
you're doing and what you'vegone through. And now you're
using that to help other people.
I think that's fantastic. Sothank you. I had a great time. I
appreciate it. And I will beconnecting with you. So thank
you so much, and that me allright. And thank you for
listening and being a part ofresilience in life and
(36:07):
leadership. We'll see you nexttime. Thank you for listening.
Please share with anyone youthink will benefit from this
podcast.
Welcome to resilience in life and
leadership with your hostStephanie Olson, speaker, author
addictions sexual violence andresilience expert. I am
Stephanie Olson Welcome toresilience in life and
leadership. I am very happy tohave Jenny toe with us. Jenny is
(00:23):
an ICF. ACC coach who is thedirector of river life coaching
her life coaching practice whereshe coaches individuals to
define success on their ownterms. Personally and
professionally. Jenny ispassionate about empowering
introverted women to remainauthentic. She is also a lawyer
and a mother of three inSingapore. Welcome, Jenny.
(00:46):
Hello, and welcome to resiliencein life and leadership. And I am
here with Jenny toe. Jenny,welcome to the show. I
appreciate you coming on.
Jenny Toh (00:54):
Hi, Stephanie. Thanks for having me. And even before
we started recording, we werediscussing what time zones are
we? Yes.
Stephanie Olson (01:02):
You are in a very different time. So you are
in Singapore, and I am in Omaha,Nebraska. So it's 8am where you
are right? It's 7pm where I am.
So yeah,
Jenny Toh (01:13):
it's amazing, right.
And when I've done podcasts forhosts in the US, it always seems
to be my morning. So I'll tellthem you know, I already know
the future. So it's Fridaymorning over here. It's
Stephanie Olson (01:25):
how to go for me. It's gonna be fine. Yes.
Excellent. Okay, that is good tohear any lottery tickets? I
should
Jenny Toh (01:33):
wish I wish. I wish I could tell you that. The weather
will be good. Okay.
Stephanie Olson (01:40):
Well, if it is, then you are a miracle worker,
because it's failing where I am.
Oh, no.
Jenny Toh (01:48):
This is wonderful that we can connect. Right? Yes,
technology. And yeah,
Stephanie Olson (01:52):
I love it. i And I love the fact. I mean,
COVID was a horrible thing. Thepandemic has been terrible. But
I think the one thing that hasreally given us as a world is
just the ability to connect, Imean, we have that ability, but
people weren't using it to theirfull advantage. And so to be
(02:13):
able to have conversations, youknow, with you and Singapore and
me and Nebraska, I mean thatthat would have been unheard of
years ago. So it's fantastic.
Jenny Toh (02:22):
And a belief that, you know, because we're both
humans, right, there arecommonalities. So So let's,
let's see what we can explore.
Stephanie Olson (02:29):
I love it.
Okay, so I absolutely love whatyou're doing, because I think it
I have not heard a whole lotabout coaches that are
specifically coachingintroverted women, and I think
that is absolutely. It'sabsolutely fantastic. And
really, what a what a greatniche that you are in. So tell
(02:53):
me, how did you come to thisplace in your life?
Jenny Toh (02:59):
Okay, okay. So that's like my story, I will. I like to
think, you know, how can I shotthe nets? To listeners, I didn't
start off as a life coach, I, Iam still a lawyer. So I've been
in the legal industry for morethan 25 years, I still do some
legal consulting business on thesite, because that is what
(03:22):
challenges me intellectually. Sothat's, that's the rational part
of me that stimulated, I wentinto coaching because I am a
Christian. And I believe thatthis is what God has called me
into in this season of my life.
So of course, he caught me sometime back, but me being rational
and practical, I have a fulltime job. I've got a family with
three kids. I'm like, No, rightnow. You know, I'm in my comfort
(03:42):
zone. Well, don't don't talk tome about coaching. But the seed
was planted the desire to coachand I find opportunities to
coach in the organizations,although informally, and I find
that that really energizes mewhen I see my subordinates
getting from a good place,getting from good to great and
(04:05):
being unstuck. So I'm thinking,okay, there is definitely
something there. But there'salso that fear of like, do I
really want to go into this all,all of myself into it. So it was
around when in 2018, that I feltthat I couldn't put it off any
longer. So I discussed myhusband, we prayed about that.
And that's when I decided tostart training as a coach. So
being a lawyer, as you know,Stephanie has a lot of things
(04:28):
you need to comply with.
Education Certification, youknow, and all that. And when I
researched on what does it taketo be a life coach, you know,
this, I didn't want to be anexecutive coach. I really wanted
to impact people from theperspective of their life. Day
to day. Yeah. And I foundcourses on Facebook as like,
(04:49):
Okay. Sign up for 1499 costs andbecome a coder, but that's not
for me. So I found this globalorganization called
International CoachingFederation. So they don't run
courses, but schools areaccredited by them. And then
from their website, I found alist of schools that are
accredited. I explored them. Iwanted to actually study in
(05:11):
Singapore itself itself.
However, the face to faceclasses for people who are
working is at night, and Icouldn't see how I could balance
that because I need to be homewith my kids and my family. So I
discovered the school inAustralia, and this was before
COVID. And I was thinking, isthis a scam? Because the
investments quite big, thatvirtually so the lady who the
(05:32):
salesperson was based in HongKong, I had lengthy
conversations with her. And shesaid in the third call, that
sales coach said, Jenny, whydon't you take the leap of
faith? And that was just it. I'mlike, why am I doubting so much?
So I went into the training thattook about a year, and I got
credential after shortly afterthat. And I was planning to
(05:54):
launch my business in 2020,without knowing that the
pandemic hits. So the pandemichits, and I asked God, do I do
this? Or do I still wait, then Ireflected, I've actually waited
quite a bit before I startedthis journey. And I just
decided, okay, let's, let's justdo it, because he's brought me
this far. So let's just do it.
(06:16):
It's definitely if I had waited,I will still be waiting now.
Right? Because of my business,I'm happy to say it's actually
two years old now, because Istarted in April 2020. So it's
two years old now. So that's howI became a life coach. And in
the beginning, when you're new,and you're starting your
business, you just wanted tocoach everyone, because there's
this fear, like, you know, if Idon't open up to everyone, no
(06:39):
one's gonna know me. But that'sthe reverse is, is actually more
true. Because when you get veryfocused on your message, you
know, who you are really, youknow, passionate about serving,
it's not that I don't coachother people. But because I'm an
introvert myself, and I know thestruggles that an introvert goes
through. That's when I feelthat, you know, I don't want
other introverts out there tofeel that no one understands us,
(07:02):
right? No one really gets us. SoI may not have the same life
experiences as each introvertbecause we're all different, but
I do have some inkling of whatgoes on in their thinking and
what they believe and all that.
So that's why you know, I'mputting myself out there as a
coach for introverts. However,the funny story is that my first
client is, is an extrovert. Iwas in I think, in July, when I
(07:26):
first started, and she saw meposting in LinkedIn, you know,
about women empowerment, andabout introversion, and she
scheduled a discovery call meand she said to me, first off, I
need to confess I'm anextrovert. Is that okay? That,
that I didn't want to tell herthat you're my first client. So
yes,
Stephanie Olson (07:47):
yeah, I'll take it.
Jenny Toh (07:50):
And she's been a very faithful client. She's been
promoting me on her own accord,you know, and things like that.
And I really see that, you know,she's coaching has really
benefited her as a person and asa positive ripple effect around
her, because of the changes inher so. So again, as you can
see, I'm very passionate aboutcoaching, believe in the good
(08:13):
work that it does in people. Ilove
Stephanie Olson (08:15):
that. So how do people find you? So you said you
were on LinkedIn and and shereached out to you, is that
typically how you promote yourbusiness?
Jenny Toh (08:27):
Yes, so I'm on LinkedIn, I am also on Facebook,
I guess, because I coachintroverted professional women,
they tend to hang out inLinkedIn more often not to say
that I don't have followers inFacebook, so they can find me on
the river life coaching. That'smy business. And also my name,
Jenny, toe to H and I have awebsite, triple W river life
(08:48):
coaching.com. I also run freewebinars on I'm quite passionate
about women empowerment, aswell, as I run through webinars
on gender bias issues. I didquite a lot of free webinars
during either InternationalWomen's Day, last month, and
that dad had quite a goodturnout. So that one is not a
marketing gig. For me, I'm doingit because I'm quite passionate,
(09:12):
but it also helps because itgets people to know me, because,
you know, if someone wants topartner with me as a coach, they
need to know me first. Right?
Absolutely. This kind ofplatform will get to know me,
and that's why I'm also doingpodcasts, so that people can
know me and see who I really am.
Stephanie Olson (09:29):
That is That is great. That is great and hard
for an introvert. Right? I mean,that is challenging. So I love
actually and coaching isalthough it's, it's, you know,
one on work, and it's very it'sreally about really getting the
people you're coaching todetermine what they need for
(09:51):
their life. Isn't that is thatcorrect?
Jenny Toh (09:54):
Yes. Yeah. So I think yeah, it will be worthwhile for
me just explain a bit thedifferences between counseling
coaching, mentoring, right andconsulting. So consulting is
quite easy because I don't thinkpeople confuse coaching and
consulting consulting trainingis like I hire you, Stephanie
uncoming. And you give me asolution. So there's no even
talking about, you know, whatcan God do? And what can
(10:14):
Stephanie provide for thissituation, and you provide a
solution. So that's consultingand training of courses,
teaching. Mentoring is more likeyou are 510 years ahead of me in
the same career, or in the sameorganization, and you mentor me
by sharing your wisdom and youradvice. So the hierarchy that's
like, what mostly a parent childbut the mentor is usually more
Stephanie Olson (10:37):
authority? And yeah, yeah, yes. Although
there's this trend
Jenny Toh (10:41):
now about reversal mentor, which is, an older
person gets mentored by ayounger person, because the
younger person is much more techsavvy. So I've been reading
articles about reversal,mentoring, which is quite
interesting. So those thingshave changed, right. So that's
mentoring. And the closest toprofessions is probably being a
(11:03):
therapist, counselor, and an acoach. And they often overlap
because both help the individualget to a better place. The
easiest way to understand it isfor counseling is a deep rooted
emotional issue, pain or trauma.
And the counselor really goesback to the past helps you
understand when was the firsttime this happened to you, and
(11:24):
what when there and what wasgoing on. And it's not that
coaching doesn't explore anxietyor stress, or you know, some
people say, I've got a mild caseof depression by collegiate they
just had a bad day. So we do goback in a bit just to explore,
but when I hear that issue isreally deep rooted, I will ask
that person, have you seen atherapist? Would you consider
seeing a therapist because I'mnot a licensed counselor or
(11:46):
therapist? I can't do that. So Iam quite mindful about that.
Yeah. So they want the person toheal from that emotional pain.
And if that person has healed,then the person's like, Okay, I
think I'm a good place. Now, Ireally don't know what to do
next. And that's a goodpartnership with a coach, coach
can come in and help you, okay,so you are dealing with things,
you seem to be better. Now youcan move forward, whether in
(12:09):
life and a career or whether inyour personal growth. So a coach
comes and helps you reflect onwhat you appreciate today. So I
really like to encourage myclients to appreciate their
present because sometimes we'rethinking, we regret our past. We
look forward to our future, wekind of forgot what's happening
to us right now. Like today now,doesn't matter. I just want to
follow it. I'm looking at theback all the time, right. So a
(12:31):
lot of my coaching sessions, Iask them what's going well for
you today, and that stops thembecause they really have to
think, Okay, what's going well,yeah, when they reflect what's
going well, the energy changes,and they're more positive, and
then we can say, Okay, today'sgood. What do you think can be
better next month? What do youhope to achieve next month? So
coaching moves forward, and it'smore forward looking. It's not
(12:53):
that we always push the clientsto set goals forward. But I also
realize that if you're movingthrough life aimlessly without a
purpose, without goals, theneveryday just seems meaningless.
So at least if you have a goal,that's something to work towards
to it's just human nature. Yes.
Great.
Stephanie Olson (13:11):
So what is an introvert? I know we hear about
introverts and and we there areso many people who would say
they're introverts, but youmight look at them. And one of
them say, No, you are not anintrovert. So what is an
introvert?
Jenny Toh (13:27):
Okay, I'll explain what I've read and what I
understand and what Iexperienced myself, and you tell
me whether that's that's you ornot, so a lot of people say, Oh,
they're shy. So yes, I was a shykid. But shyness is something
you can learn to outgrow.
Because as you grow older, yougain confidence and you see life
differently. You can overcomeshyness. introversion and
extraversion is where younaturally draw your energy from.
(13:50):
So an introvert I'm spendingtime with you. I'm talking to
people in webinars then afterthat, if I really don't spend
time by myself, locked myself inmy room, keep my kids at bay and
all that I actually get aheadache so it's my energy is
like so low that I get aheadache I get grumpy so my kids
know that. If I'm talking to alot of people, I do need a
(14:11):
sustained 20 minutes break. So Irecharged by drawing internally
and I like you know, just beingquiet and just being an
extrovert doesn't mean that theyhave to be with people 24/7 It's
just an extrovert finds thatthey draw the energy from
others. So when they're out withpeople, they get energized and
when the evening is over, theystill want to go home because
(14:33):
the energy is there the pool, sothey want to hang out a bit
more. And I have a lot offriends who are extroverted and
I always have to say, Okay, I'vespent here I love you know, but
before I understood this, Iactually felt guilty. And I
actually felt bad because I'mthinking I like these people,
but I can't seem to carry ontalking to them after a while. I
(14:56):
really like some He's outbecause I, I find it difficult
and I didn't understand where Idraw my energy from that. So I
went through this period offeeling very guilty, I have
something wrong with me, youknow what was wrong, you know,
their social skills I need topick up. And now I'm definitely
more relaxed about it. And Ialso encourage your listeners or
anyone who's hearing this andsay that it's okay, we all have
(15:20):
our thresholds. So even forextroverts, there is a threshold
when right, okay, that's enough,right? Because we're all people,
and introversion extroversion,we don't have to box ourselves
in. So that's like a spectrum.
So like you said, you being anintrovert, no one would know
you're an introvert because youare connected to your purpose.
So when you speak passionatelyabout what you do, and what you
(15:44):
care about, that's where theintroversion sort of, like
mostly put aside, but you'rewilling to be extroverted for
the purposes, right, you know,speaking into your purpose.
Stephanie Olson (15:56):
Yeah, that's so true. And for years, I actually
assumed that I was an extrovert,because I've never really been
shy. And, and just like yousaid, that's kind of the
mindset, introverts are alwaysshy. I had never really been
shy, and I do well, in a crowd,I can, that working and things
(16:21):
like that meeting people, itdrains me, but I do it well. And
so when, when I started to reada little bit about introverts
and extroverts, and reallystarted to look at that, I was
like, Oh, my gosh, I am actuallynot an extrovert. I'm an
introvert because I need when Iget refueled, it's time by
(16:43):
myself. It's being alone. It's,it's that, you know, I'll go
speak to a group of people, andhave a great time. And it's
wonderful, but then I have gotto be by myself. And exactly,
yeah, that made so much sense.
So people today, I will tellpeople, and I always add social
introverts, so they, so theyunderstand, but also you're not
(17:06):
an introvert and like, Yes,really? I am.
Jenny Toh (17:12):
Yes, it's like, if you carry on talking with me for
another hour or so, I'll besaying, I've got to go,
Stephanie Olson (17:19):
I will be.
Exactly. That's exactly. It'slike, okay, I'm done. I, my
bedtime is like, you know, 830.
So I'm good to go. So I do Ilove that. So what are the
issues then? Especially whenyou're talking about women
empowerment, and women andleadership or whatever that may
(17:41):
be? What are some of the issuesthat introverts deal with?
Jenny Toh (17:46):
Because we're very reflective, and because we
introspect a lot, and, and forwomen, we tend to be quite
critical as well. So a lot ofthings remain in our head,
right? We mull about that, andwe toy about that in a world,
everything else is going onexternally. You don't put your
ideas out. And sometimes themoment just passes. So I've
(18:08):
coached clients who were told tobe more visible by their manager
who says that, you know, wereally need to hear what you
say, because I know you havethings to say, but it's not
coming up. And she feels that,you know, it's not 100% Good
enough, you know, for her isn'tgood enough. So I coached them
to not focus on themselves somuch. Yes, you can introspect,
(18:31):
you can mull about right. Sointroverts need a lot of
preparation, especially forpresentations or speaking of a
meeting. So if the person hasprepared, they will be able to
speak out in meetings, there arechallenges those brainstorming
meetings are where you gotmeetings with extroverted,
talking, extroverts justtalking, there is no window of
opportunity for them to speak upand to push themselves to be
(18:51):
spontaneous and to speak up.
They hold themselves back. Soeven for those kind of
spontaneous meetings, you doneed to plan so I practically
effectual situation was that,you know, I told her, could you
actually tell your manager tocall on you? So I'm like, okay,
okay, that's a great idea. youpartner with your manager in the
back like Mr. Meetings, themanager calls on you, and you
(19:13):
know, that he will call on you,and you've prepared some things.
So that's just for you to getthat initial confidence, you
know, you probably tell him thatI feel bad. You know, not that
comfortable to speak on my ownyet, you know, especially if
you're new to a team and yourteam is very extroverted, so he
can call on us like, Stephanie,okay, we've heard about what Bob
and John has said, what aboutyou? What's your view on it? And
(19:34):
then you speak and then you seehow it goes. So a lot of times,
I tell my clients that you needto shift the focus outwards.
What is what is that personrequiring of you? If the
information if you're supposedto prepare a sales report? Does
the person need to know like theorigins of that particular
product? Because if a sales guy,he just needs to know how can I
(19:57):
pitch to my client and you arethe Put up expert, right? So you
don't need to be perfect. Youcould just give her three
points. But she's saying thatoh, yeah, but I need to be
really certain of everything. Isaid that info if that is the
purpose, that's more for you.
It's not for that recipient.
Right. So it's justunderstanding what the recipient
of that information once Yeah.
(20:17):
So I mean, these are just verypractical things for the
workplace, I guess in general,is tell yourself if I need to
ask my question this question tomyself many times when I started
my business, and even now if Ihold everything back in, who am
I depriving of its benefits? Solet's just say I'm talking about
introversion, but I feel shy, orI feel awkward. I don't talk
(20:38):
about that. So imagine all thelisteners out there who are
introverts who are struggling tosay, whether we understand them,
so I'm holding back thissharing, right, because as you
know, when we talk about that wefeel less alone, especially if
someone like us definitely say,hey, yeah, Jamie, I know, I hear
you, I get you and yourlisteners will be like, Wow,
okay, someone else is goingthrough the same thing as me. So
(20:59):
when you focus on how you canhelp another person that will,
you know, get you motivated tosay what you need to say,
Stephanie Olson (21:07):
wow, you know, it's so interesting, because
when my oldest was really young,she's 21 Now, and when she was
she was in elementary school,she was so shy, you could almost
see her turn into herself. Imean, it was just visible. And,
(21:31):
and, you know, definitely,obviously a self confidence
issue. That was that was beingexperienced, and she was a dish,
she's a dancer. And so when shewould go into a class, and there
(21:52):
were, she would be, you know,really internal, and just very,
and so I talked to her one day,and I said, you know, everyone
in that room probably feels theexact same way you do, that they
are feeling, you know, selfconscious, they, especially for
things like auditions, or theymay not feel it, you know,
(22:15):
secure in themselves, they maynot have confidence. But the
difference is how people displaythat. And some people go in and
just display that with, youknow, with confidence, whether
they have it internally, orwhether they're just portraying
confidence, who knows. Buthaving that conversation really
(22:40):
changed the perception of whatit means to be confident what it
means to be shy, and that youcan actually behave in a way
that you don't feel internallyand that it changed the
trajectory of her dancingcareer. So I think that
(23:01):
sometimes we we think we have tobehave in a way that we feel,
and we don't,
Jenny Toh (23:09):
that says beautiful, Stephanie, thanks for sharing
that. And a lot of times is wecan acknowledge that we feel
these things like for example,your daughter in a dance
audition, what is the purposethat she's therefore she's there
to give her best for thetransportation. So when you
really reconnect with thatpurpose, it doesn't matter.
You're not competing withothers, you know, you just want
to do your best if you let go oflike being competitive or
(23:33):
comparison. So I mean,unfortunately, you know,
comparing yourself with others,it's very common. Yeah, we all
do we all do. We all do it. Weall do it. Yeah. If you visit a
Facebook page, I remember, yearsago, I was joking. My husband, I
said, they have the nicest housethat my husband said, would
anyone post a messy living room?
No, I think that the pandemic,that we were the pandemic, a lot
(23:56):
of people have posted theirmessy living room, right?
Because I think but before thatfor a nice living, right? My
husband said, you know, peopleonly post good things on social
media. So even for adults likeus, we tend to compare as well.
So, a lot of times, introvertswill introspect and like I'm not
good enough, you know, she cando all that I can do all that so
you are too much in yourself,recognize that you are thinking
(24:19):
that and then focus on what youneed to do whether it's at work
or whether it's in your life,what is it that you really need
to do if you keep holdingyourself back? How would that
feel one month down the road twomonths prior and that's what I
asked myself when I was thinkingabout launching the business I
was thinking no I've come thisfar right? If I don't do it,
then the what if it's going tokill me, so I need to do it.
(24:41):
Yes, it's scary. You You don'tknow what's really going to
happen but you put yourself outthere. Take one small step
outside your comfort zone andbefore you know it that becomes
your new comfort zone. You'relike okay, why was I scared? You
know, in the beginning, you pushyourself one step outside Never
tell my clients, okay? If youwant to be a CEO in 10 years
(25:01):
time, you know, start, startseeing what that looks like,
Yes, it's good to just imaginethat but then you, you work
yourself backwards. If I want tobe CEO in 10 years time, what
skills do I need now? Right? DoI need to speak now? What do I
need to do a bit differentlynow. So it can be small steps
now leading up towards your biggoal.
Stephanie Olson (25:21):
That's great.
Now, how long do you typicallywork with a client?
Jenny Toh (25:25):
Oh, it depends, like what you said in the beginning
is very client centric. So itdepends on the client's goal. So
I have had, like clients hascome to me for two or three
sessions, because they need tohave a performance review
conversation, that's all theyneeded, because they can discuss
with their colleagues because itcan go to the manager and say,
let me bounce these ideas off ofyou. So that's very specific. So
(25:47):
you don't need a long coachingsession. Whereas there are
clients who's been with me forsix months and more, because
they're thinking more about thelife purpose, what they really
want for their lives. And itcovers all angles. Usually,
women want to start with theircareers, because they feel that
that's where they need the mosthelp. But after that, they
realize that, okay, it's morethan career. It's also personal
(26:08):
growth. It's also how do I showup, as you know, in the family,
whether your daughter, sister, awife, or mother, you know,
what's your role in the family,and some people feel that there
must be more to this, I've got agood job. I've got a good
family, but I want to givesomething to the community. So
I've had people come to me andsay, I need to do more, but I
(26:28):
don't know what. Yeah, so soit's a lot of different topics
that people bring. And I thinkultimately, it's just trying to
find, what's your identity? Andin this place that you put in,
yeah,
Stephanie Olson (26:43):
that's good. Is there any time where people
would just continue coaching orcoaching on this topic? Now, I'm
going to move to this topic. Andnow I'm going to move to this
topic that you have a coach forlife? Well, you don't want to
that's kind of the opposite ofcoaching, right?
Jenny Toh (27:04):
And I'm not saying I'm not saying like, it's like a
parent child relationship,because a coach client
relationship, we are equals, I'myour accountability partner. I'm
your sounding board. I'm the onewho's not in your life. And yet,
you know, you are comfortable totell me everything, possibly
even things that you don't tellanyone else because its own your
thoughts, especially forintroverts, they don't tell
(27:25):
these things to anyone else,because they're worried that
what will people think? So thatthe power in coaching is
providing this safe space of nonjudgement and really being
empathetic? So, yes, there will,there will be issues where you
think like, Okay, I'm done withthis, I want to do this. I've
coached clients who say, I'vegot top three things that I want
to work on. So let's start. Sothe very focus, let's start with
(27:46):
this first thing. And once we'redone, work on the second day, I
did this study. And the otherhand, I've got clients who are
like, I really don't know whatto talk about. So can you tell
me what I should be coached on?
And I don't give the answers. Ijust tell them, Well, look at
your life right now, you know,where do you think you add? What
do you think you're reallyenjoying? What do you think you
could improve? So we can havethat kind of initial
(28:07):
conversation for them toidentify what areas they want to
grow in? I think the beauty iswhen the client says, I don't
need you anymore journey,because I'm good of all the
things that we've talked about,I now know my own strengths, I
now have the inner resources, Inow know the direction, I might
come back to you six months downthe road. Baseball. So you can
(28:28):
say is a start stop type ofrelationship. If you get a good
foundation, you go ahead. Andthen you think that okay, maybe
I want to come back andreevaluate my goals. But I don't
believe in like, you know, I'myour lifelong coach. Because
ultimately, it's your life,right? I am just here to help
you for this season of yourlife.
Stephanie Olson (28:50):
You're kind of a guide, just to push it along
the way. Yeah,
Jenny Toh (28:55):
I would say that I am your traveling partner, you will
tell me where you want to go. SoI'm never in the driver's seat.
And now I'm in the passengerseat, you're driving and of
course, you know, safety first.
We talk a lot about trust andsafety in a coaching session. So
whatever you tell me isconfidential and never be used
anywhere else. So it's more likeyou're driving, you're so
(29:17):
focused on the destination andsay, why don't we stop for a
while, take a break. See what'saround you. And how do you feel?
Because sometimes we're sofocused, we are driving towards
our goal, ignoring everythingbeside and for women, we rarely
celebrate our successes. It'slike I don't think I'm
successful yet. What do you meanyou're not successful? If your
best friend looks at you rightnow, what would she say? It's
(29:39):
easier for us to be kindersupportive, more empathetic
towards others. We are so hardon ourselves.
Stephanie Olson (29:47):
Absolutely. Oh, wow. That's good. That's really
good. So you have obviously comea long way in your life. You are
successful, you are doing thingsthat not only They really
probably empower you but empowerothers. And that is amazing.
What would you say to LittleJenny? Little Jenny?
Jenny Toh (30:11):
I do I do have little Jenny's. I mean, I have two
girls and the younger me
Stephanie Olson (30:17):
right? Your Jedi? Yes, it's the little you
that if you could go back andand give your little Jedi advice
or you I guess what what wouldyou say?
Jenny Toh (30:31):
Don't worry so much does if I reflect I worried a
lot. And I think when I was, youknow, really in the legal
career, it was my training tolook out for worst case
scenarios, right. So in theprofessional side, I'm always
looking for Worst case scenarioso that I can plan my case,
because I was a trial attorney.
So it's always like, what's theperson gonna say, you know, so I
need to defend my case, I needto prepare my case, you know, so
(30:54):
that it's foolproof. And thenthat trickle into life as well.
Well, yeah, and training. But Ithink even as a child because I
was shy and introverted, a lotof it was in my head. So I was
always preparing. Like, if I saythis, what will people think and
all that so I worried a lot. AndI think as I grew up, but that
is still that trip, and I wouldtell my younger self, you know,
(31:15):
don't worry so much things,things will work out. It may not
work out the way you want it.
Right. But it will work out someright. So that's what I'm
telling myself when when youknow, I start worrying again,
then you know what's going tohappen? Like, okay, you don't
worry, God's got this. Yes. Youjust you just do your fun. Yes,
do your part.
Stephanie Olson (31:35):
That is so I've just loved this conversation. I
think what you do is sofascinating, because coaching, I
mean, there are coaches allover, but to coach women that,
you know, have that introverted,and obviously you can coach
extroverts as well. But I thinkthere is such an important piece
(31:58):
to that. And what an amazingbecause it only an introvert
truly would know how to reallyunderstand what another
introvert is experiencing. And Ithink that is really powerful. I
love that.
Jenny Toh (32:16):
We would never push another introvert to say go out
there just yeah, just speak, doit. Yeah, just do it. It doesn't
work. Yes, ultimately, the goalis to just do it. But I
encourage my clients to reflect,you know how to do it in their
own way. And yes, you may haveto put on an extrovert that's
but if it's like a half an hourmeeting, that's when you put out
(32:39):
your most extroverted self, buthow do you regain your energy
after that, so that you don'tfeel that? Oh, you know, I just
put on a show. I'm so fake. It'snot that you were extroverted
for that period, because therewas a purpose for it. What was
that purpose? So you anchor inthat purpose, clearly. Then
after that you do what you needto get your energy back? Yeah,
Stephanie Olson (33:00):
that is really good. Okay, final question. What
does resilience mean to you?
Jenny Toh (33:09):
Well, the standard dictionary meaning is the
ability to bounce back, right?
Interesting that you can sharewith us. I did run workshops on
resilience in 2020. Because Ithink that was like the most
like the trending topic. Butyeah, people needed to hear
that. And I was runningwebinars, I was doing workshop,
and I asked someone, you know,what, do you think your? Are you
resilient? And then she said,No, I'm not, you know, so I
(33:33):
said, What do you understand byresilience that she said someone
strong, and I'm not strong. Sothen I take her through her life
experiences, what she wentthrough really specific examples
each moment and all that andafter she said, all that, I
said, I hear an extremelyresilient person, because you
went through ABCD and here youare today talking to me. And she
(33:55):
was just dumbfounded. She said,I didn't know that was
resilient. That was just memaking the most of what I can.
So people have a misconceptionthat resilience is the strong
man or the strong man who justbrave through it all. No, we are
all struggling is just that whenlife hits us, or life throws us
a curveball what happens? Yes,you you get knocked down and you
(34:18):
spend time being knocked down.
But after that, if you're ableto say, okay, what can I do with
this? What can I learn or growfrom this and then you take
small steps to you know, to growfrom it, or to learn from it or
even to share your experiencesfrom it. So a lot of people they
did talk about this, what theygo through, you know, in
(34:40):
podcasts and blogs and forpurposes of encouraging others
to say that you're not alone. Sofor me resilience, we were all
resilient. It's just that whatwhat do you make of the
circumstances that you're inwhether you know, you, you bring
yourself out of it, or yourealize that I need help, that's
also resilience becauseresilience doesn't mean, oh, I'm
(35:02):
stuck in this by myself. I don'tknow, why do I'll just stay
stuck. Resilience is alsoresourcefulness. So I'm stuck. I
reached out to another coachFred to say, Hey, I'm really
stuck in what can I do? And thenwhen we talk about that it
helps. So yeah, I mean, it'svery broad definition, I would
say, you know, we're allresilient is just how you deal
(35:23):
with the circumstances thatyou're in.
Stephanie Olson (35:24):
That is I love that. That is great. Now, Jenny
one more time, how can peoplefind you?
Jenny Toh (35:30):
Okay, so I have a website, triple W river life
coaching.com. I'm on Facebookand LinkedIn under the company,
which is real life coaching, oryou can connect with me
personally, as well undergenital and I'm sure you gonna
put all this in your show notesas
Stephanie Olson (35:43):
well.
Absolutely. I want to do that.
And I've just, I've loved thisconversation. I appreciate what
you're doing and what you'vegone through. And now you're
using that to help other people.
I think that's fantastic. Sothank you. I had a great time. I
appreciate it. And I will beconnecting with you. So thank
you so much, and that me allright. And thank you for
listening and being a part ofresilience in life and
(36:07):
leadership. We'll see you nexttime. Thank you for listening.
Please share with anyone youthink will benefit from this
podcast.
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