John Jarman Broken and Redeemed: Resilience in Life and Leadership Episode 042

Episode Transcript
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Stephanie Olson (00:00):
Thank you for listening. Please share with
anyone you think will benefitfrom this podcast. Hello, and
welcome to resilience in lifeand leadership. I'm Stephanie
Olson and I am here with JohnJarman very excited about this.
He is a professional fitnesscoach and men's discipleship
leader, with a passion forseeing lives changed by Jesus

(00:23):
Christ have former phone full offormer football coach and Marine
Corps veteran of Desert Storm,John's life was radically
transformed from a selfdestructive trajectory to one of
life wholeness, and a dynamicwalk with Christ. That's what he
does a story that is told in thepages of broken and redeemed.

(00:45):
And that is a book that we thatwas just just came out a couple
of weeks ago, John holds amaster's degree in physical
education from Ohio University.
And as of this writing is closeto completing a master's degree
in theology from faiths Seminaryin Tacoma, Washington where he
resides. Welcome, John. I'm soglad you're here.

John Jarman (01:06):
Thank you. I'm happy to be here. And we
actually have a bright sunshinyday up here in the Northwest. So

fantastic. And a bit rare, right?

It this time of year. Yes. Yes. Summer times are
beautiful. But this time ofyear, it's it's pretty rare. So
yeah, we're fortunate.

Well, we've switched it is not at all
sunshiny. Here. So you you aregetting it. Yes. All right.
Well, so tell us I'm excited tohear about your book. But I
really would love to hear firsthow you got here where you are
today?

Well, it's a it's, it's a it's a long story in a
complex story. So you know how Igot here is and I'll start with
how I got to the book, I guess.
And then we can dive into thestory. In 2014, I was in
counseling, I had moved backhome, because my mom was real
sick. And I ended up losing herin 20 in 2000 Oh, eight. But I
just I saw some patterns startto develop again. And you know,

(02:01):
the self destructiveness and Iwas just like, you know, I don't
want to go through this again.
And so I reached out for acounselor, I found Christina
Holland, just by the grace ofGod. I called two counselors.
They weren't taking patients.
She was the third I called andshe was taking patients and we
worked together for 10 years.
And in 2014, she in one of oursessions, she goes, John, you

(02:24):
need to write a book. And I'mlike, okay, no one's gonna read
my story. You know, and youknow, your story. It's my story.
But there's other and as I tellpeople all the time, you know,
there's people who've been downthe same path. There's people
that's probably been down wayworse paths. And I've been, but
it is my story. And it's unique.
And I started talking to somefriends. And they're like, Yeah,
John, you need to write a book.

(02:47):
And so my problem was, is, Ifailed English in high school. I
have dyslexia. I'm a marine anda PE coach. I'm not a writer.
And so I was like, how am Igoing to do this, you know, so I
searched for ghost writer. And Ifound a young lady that was
attending that worked at thechurch I attended, and she, she
had written some books. And so Italked to her and she helped me
kind of outline my book, and Istarted writing in it back in

(03:09):
2014. However, I didn't feellike I had it in me to finish
the book. And so I set it up ona shelf until actually last
February. And I was I was, in myscripture, reading one morning,
and I read came across Hebrews1036. And it's talks about the
doing the will of God. And whenyou're doing the will of God,

(03:31):
you have to persevere to getwhat he promised. And so and
then about an hour later, I'm inthe gym, doing my cardio, and
I'm reading a book by AJSwoboda, it's his very first
book called Messy. And in it,he's talking about the will of
God. And he said, No one toldme, No one told me if anybody
would read this book, or buythis book, I just had to write
it. And so those two thingswithin an hour, I went, Okay.

(03:53):
I'm listening, and I need tofinish the book, you know. And
so I was just about to go on atrip to Panama City, Florida.
And I told myself, I would writefor two hours a day on vacation,
because I was gonna be there fora week. I mean, very, very
inspirational sunrise on theGulf of Mexico. pretty
inspirational.

Yeah, great writing. Background. Yeah. So

So I started writing then I came back home
and I continued, and I finishedthe book and four weeks. And so
it was a truly God ledinspiration and truly amazing.
The next you know, I find andcontacted my spiritual mentor
asked him if he knew an editor,and he had a young lady he

(04:33):
referred me to is our land andher team at inspira literacy
here are in spirit, hang on. Ijust my brain just went dead
literature. No, it's a literarysolutions. There we go. Oh,
yeah. So so we started talkingand I found out our Lynn had
served in prayer ministry withmy with my mentor. And as soon

(04:55):
as she said that, I was like,Alright, you're the person for
the book. And so, you know,God's had his hands in this The
whole way. And so we startedediting actually, about this
time last year. And so we'regoing through the editing
process. And she told me, she,she then she tells me she's a
scout for Morgan, JamesPublishing. And so she said,
John, they're gonna pick thisbook up, and I'm like, Yeah,
okay, you know, because younever know. Right? And, and so

(05:18):
we submitted it in August inSeptember, I got a letter saying
that they accepted it. And wow,that never happens. By the way,
I know it's and so I was, I wastruly humbled, because they only
right now they only do about3035 faith based books a year.
And that was September when Igot the letter. And here we are
in March and actually have thebooks in my hands. It's not out

(05:41):
yet to the public, it goes tothe public April 5 on ebooks.
And then the official launchdate is actually August 16 of
this year, when it will be inbookstores. And so, you know,
this last year has just beenamazing. To see God's hand and
all this and it's been a trueblessing.

So that is only God can do that. That. Yes,
ma'am. And you have a cup andeverything. Oh, yeah.

I got I got hats. I got t shirts. I've been a former
football coach and athleticdirector. I've done all the
marketing stuff before. Yeah,yeah. And then I used I used to
own my own business. And that'spart of the story. I used to own
a training small trainingstudio. And so, you know,
knowing how to market that, youknow, it just was real easy. It
was just boom, and I goteverything. So yeah, it's all,

(06:28):
it's all on my website, you cango to my website and see it all.

I love it.
Okay, that's fabulous. So now,John, tell us a little bit and
we'll we'll agree to read thebook. Okay. So I know that
you're gonna give a little bitaway. But tell us a little bit
about your story and how, youknow, how you were broken. And
yeah, God did to redeem you.

So the story starts, you know, it, I grew up
in a very violent home, my dadwas an alcoholic, and very
abusive, and, you know, growingup, you know, I, I'll go with
this is, you know, up until age12, I don't really have much
memory of my childhood from zeroto age 12. And so the trauma,
you know, what my counselor saidis, it's probably better not to

(07:13):
know than to find out becausethe, the recovery of that would
even be more so. And you know,my whole life, I really didn't
think that I was a victim, untilI got into counseling with
Christina and started looking atsome things and asking
questions, and excuse me, andhearing some other things,
right. And so I really didn'tthink I was a victim. But at age
12, I woke up one night andheard my, you know, my mom being

(07:36):
beat up by my dad again. And soI went down to the kitchen and
pulled the knife out of thedrawer and told him if he didn't
stop, I would kill them. Andthen he left. And it was my mom
and my three brothers left tobasically survive for you know,
we didn't have a realrelationship with my dad. Wow.
And that in all of that turmoiland the shame and the guilt from

(07:58):
being, you know, abused, and allthat, I carried it with me until
probably age. Well, 50s, intothe 50s. And then I started
realizing I was a victim. Andthat's where Christine said, you
needed to write a book. And soyou know, but going backwards
back into time, you know, Istarted high school, I got into
playing football. But I was a, Iwas addicted to drugs, alcohol,

(08:23):
all my brothers were because itwas the 19, early 80s. That was
kind of, you know, the drugs andalcohol thing. Yeah. But I got
to, you know, I was in that Isold drugs. And, you know, one
night, I was, I was sitting at aparty, and I was like, there's
gotta be more to life than this.
And I walked out of the party.
And two days later, I walkedinto a marine recruiters office
and I said, you know, I need,can you get me out of here

(08:44):
quick. And he asked if Icommitted a crime. He goes, Did
you commit a crime? And I said,Yeah, but I've never been
caught. And so he goes, Okay, sowe chatted for a while. And then
two months later, I was in I wasin boot camp. And that's that,
that saved my life.

Yeah, how old were you at that time?

I was 23. So it was it was well after high school.
So I didn't go in right afterhigh school because I was I did
after high school is I keptdoing what I was doing. Yeah,
party and drugs, you know,because that's all I knew,
really. And that's where thebrokenness is, and you know,
that, you know, and part of thatbrokenness is learning and, you
know, as you start to get closerto God, and then looking back in
your life and seeing, you know,because of all this shame,

(09:22):
guilt, and bitterness andeverything, and how it affected
your life, you don't treatpeople too well, sometimes. And
you know, and so you have to goback and you know, and I, I've
tried to go back and speak withthe people that I, you know,
might have heard along the wayand ask for forgiveness, because
that's part of your walk, someof forgiveness, some habit, you
know, and it's up to them ifthey want to forgive plus, you

(09:44):
have to ask for forgiveness. Youknow, my dad and I did mend our
relationship. When I got out ofboot camp and got out of
schooling, I was stationed inOkinawa, Japan, and I started
thinking about some of thethings that were told to me as a
young man about you know, Oh,well, you know what my dad did
and did not do to support us ashe was as we were growing up.

(10:05):
And so I wanted to know thetruth. And so when I got
stationed back here in theUnited States, I had some leave
time and I flew to Coloradowhere he was living and I
knocked on his door, he openedthe door, and I pop written a
mouth. And it's, I don'trecommend this to start your
forgiveness.

Yeah. But I get it, though. Yeah.

But my dad's my dad stood up, and he wiped the blood
off his lip. And he said, Ideserve that. Let's go have a
beer and talk. And so we wentdownstairs, and I asked
questions about because, youknow, we were, we're told that
no money was coming, and allthis stuff, and I see all this
stuff. And so then I got in aplane that flew home, and I put
that out in front of my mom, Isaid, Why July? You know, and so

(10:48):
I'm dealing with all thisgrowing up. And so, you know,
then I, and, you know, so thatwas, that's all part of, you
know, the, the process andlearning things. And, you know,
and then understanding a littlebit of it, but never, you know,
during this time, God was neverpresent in my life during all
this. I went to church while Iwas in bootcamp on Sunday, just

(11:10):
to escape the drill instructorsfor an hour. So that might have
been where the seed was planted.
That is great. I love it.
Because they said, you can go tochurch, and you know, and I'm
like, Okay, I'm going just toget away from you guys for an
hour or so get a break. So youknow, that and I look back on
that time, and it's the HolySpirit, you know, there. I mean,
I mean, I don't know God, andI'm sitting in a party. Yeah.

(11:31):
And I walk out of the party, andI don't do drugs ever again. And
so unreal. Yeah, that's as Iwhere I'm at. Now, in my faith,
I can see where God wasprotecting me and watching out
for me this whole time. And youknow, I take full responsibility
of everything I did, you know,and that's the thing, I don't
condone it. Um, you know,there's some of it that I'm not
too proud of. But it is what forme. And so let's see where I'm

(11:58):
at. Oh, so I get either I've metmy, my wife at the time I met
her while I was in the MarineCorps. We went back to her
hometown in Ohio. And, andthat's where I started college.
Because I wanted to get a degreeI wanted to actually teach and
coach to help kids not go downthe path I did. And no, and I

(12:18):
did, I helped a lot of people.
But then I also made somemistakes. Because, you know, I
said, I had a self destructivebehavior, I would go into
school, we would fix the school,as far as the football team
would go, we turn the footballteam around, and then I would
go, you know, not knowing what Iwas doing, I would self destruct
and end up having to move and goto a different school. And so
there was people that I heardalong the way. Because were You

were you a believer at this time had, you
know, I went okay. And that was,you know, I

didn't even go to church at this time, you know, a
couple of times, but not really.
The only time the only, youknow, boot camp, I went to
church, or that the only thing Ihad was my, my dad's mom, my dad
was adopted. So my, my grandma,my grandmother on my dad's side,
she would always when we wouldsee each other, she would always
say Johnny, God's got somethingspecial planned for you. And
that's and I would laugh at herreally, because I didn't know

(13:09):
who God was. And now she'slaughing because I have this
book, and she knew it all thetime. So, you know, so and so,
based on that, you know, we whenmy wife and I were together, we,
you know, we went in and out ofchurch, but we weren't committed
or anything like that to faith.
And when I moved out of my firstcoaching job from North Carolina

(13:30):
to Georgia, I started going tothe Fellowship of Christian
Athletes huddle that we had oncampus. So still, I started
getting exposure to to the worldand to God, but still never
walking in, you know, trulyabiding. And then I left
Georgia. And so I my dad died in2003. And so I came home for

(13:52):
Christmas that year. And it wasthe first time in 18 years that
I came home to the northwest.
And I got on the plane and Ifelt like I had to stay because
my mom was sick. And you know, Iknew I would she probably
wouldn't make it to move toomuch longer. And so I went back
to Georgia, and I told my headcoaches, look, I'm going home.
And I found a job up here and Icame home in 2000 2005 yet
because I came home in 2005. Andso I came home and ended up

(14:21):
losing my mom and in 2008 When Igot up here, one of the coaches
that I hired, he was a pastor,and so I started attending his
church. So then again, moreexposure, right seeds being
watered. I'm still trying tolearn things and to you know,
scope this out, but it's but asmy coach Coach tuina he would,
he'd said that basically what Iwas I was a submarine Christian.

(14:45):
I would come up on Sunday and Iwould go under water for the
rest of the week. Yes, yeah. AndI love that term though, because
it's so appropriate, you know,and and but looking back Um,
that's what I was at that time.
And then I left that job. And Igot into personal training. I,

(15:07):
you know, and that's where Istarted seeing the self
destruction behavior again. Andthat's when I went to seek
counseling. And at that time Iwas I was getting closer and
closer to God. And I prayed toGod that He gives me a Christian
woman, you know, and I was justlike, praying that that would
happen. And he did. Sorry, blessyou. And so so we, Leah and I

(15:28):
started dating. And for herdaughter's really didn't accept
me. But we had a truly biblicalrelated relationship. We're
together for four years. And we,our relationship was totally
biblical. And what I mean bythat is, we never slept
together. We never spent thenight together, we just, you
know, matter of fact, our firstdate, she looked at me and she
said, You're not gonna sleepwith me. So I just like, you

(15:51):
know, right now, you know, rightnow, but you know, and I respect
her for that, because she, youknow, she was a very strong
Christian Christian lady, and Ilearned a lot about faith and
walk. And, but her daughter'sreally never accepted me. And so
we ended up splitting up becauseof that, you know, we prayed
about it, and we checked, youknow, but it wasn't, I think God
used that to move me closer. AndLeah, and I still remain friends

(16:13):
today. And it's, we have astrong relationship. So.
But at that point, I was goingthrough counseling, and I, we
one day during counseling, wehad a very, for lack of better
terms, a very demonic session,because we were trying to do
some recovery. And it's, thedetails of it are in the book,

(16:35):
and I don't you know, somepeople believe it, some people
don't, because it's always weirdwhen you start talking about the
spiritual warfare. Yeah, yeah.
But it was definitely there. Andso I sought out I went back to
church, and I just told himtelling one of my assistant
pastors, what happened. And hegoes, Oh, you need to talk to
Scotty. And so Scotty Kessler,who ended up being my mentor and
disciple, leader, worked in thedeliverance ministry. And so

(16:57):
when we got together, and fromthat point on, I was working
with him and Christina, and ittook probably about five years
working with both of them to getfree of everything. And as I
started to go, and started tolook at this book is is was I
got a little deeper into theword I tell Scotty, I said, you
know, I want to get behind theword a little bit, I want to dig

(17:18):
deeper in the word so and I toldhim, I said, I want to go to I
think I want to go to seminaryschool. And so he didn't even
know we had one here in Tacoma.
And he goes, Yep, we got oneright here. And so I enrolled in
FE seminary to start studying.
And so I did that for a while.
And I'll come back to that herein a second. I jumped ahead,

(17:38):
sorry. But about 2016 When Leahand I were breaking up, I also
my gym was not doing well. I hadlost my two older brothers due
to their complications, oranything. So and then my sister
in law was in the hospital, andshe wasn't doing too well. So I
had this massive storm, youknow, I just broke up. And I'm
asking not God at this time,okay, I did everything right.

(17:59):
Why are we why can't we staytogether? And so I'm questioning
God, my business is corrupt, youknow, not doing well. And so I'm
just like, What am I going todo? I don't know what to do. And
so in November of 2016, I fellto the floor today at 330. In
the morning, when I was uppraying, and I said, I'm done.
I'm giving it all to you. Ican't do it anymore. Whatever
you do, I will accept I'llfollow you. And you know, I'm an

(18:22):
hour probably praying, tearscoming out of my eyes. And then
I open up the Bible. And I itopens up to Romans seven where
Paul's talking about he's, youknow, he wants to do what what's
right, but he can't because ofthe sin that's in him. And I
read this whole passage notes, Ithink it's Roman 714 through 21.
And I don't want to recite itall, because I can't, I can't do

(18:42):
it from memory. But I readthrough that, and I'm like, Wow,
that really makes a lot of senseto me. And that's what I was
doing. And then I flip some morepages back to First John one,
five, and it says, God is thelight, there is no darkness and
in Him, if you claim to havefellowship with him, but
continue to walk in the dark,you don't have the truth in you
and I went, I've got to changemy life. And that at that

(19:05):
moment, I went, I've got tochange. And so that's where the
true transformation took placewas that morning. And from that
time on, it's just, it'sunbelievable. The veil was
lifted, and I could start seeingGod's work in my life and the
relationship, you know, andunderstanding the word better,
because I started seeing itbetter. And I started applying

(19:28):
it to my to my life. And I tellpeople a lot of times, you know,
I think some people read theBible, but they don't digest it.
And I started digesting itbecause it's he said, we can't
live on bread alone. So we gotto live on that word. And I
started I started shuffling itdown like I was yeah, like I was
at an all you can eat buffet

that's calorie free.

Yeah. Yeah. So So and, and so that's where you
know That's where the storystarted came to. It's the broken
and the redeemed. And it's beena it's been an unbelievable
ride. And I, you know, it's allGod's work. And that's, you
know, it's his story. And that'sthe beauty of broken redeem

(20:15):
because, you know, as I saidearlier, it was four weeks and I
finished the book. Yeah, notonly amazing. I only had five
chapters, and I finished in thebook ended up being 15.

Books. Love your book. Can you show? Sure.
So here it is here. Yeah. Sobeautiful.

And in, you know, and so it's about 214 pages
total. It's a super easy read.
And it's funny, because I don'twant to say it's funny, but
it's, here's another god thing.
I call these when quince I usedto think coincidence. Now I call
him God. Thanks. Absolutely. Andso one of the god things is the
cover of the book that you seebehind me, the waterfall was

(20:56):
actually in New Zealand, and thelady from Morgan James who
designed the cover, she didn'tknow what I'm about to tell you.
When she picked the picture. Shejust thought it was a really
nice picture. And it depictedbroken, redeemed. And the name
of the waterfall is Devil'sPunchbowl. Wow. And so I tell
people, when I share the storyis that's just another proof

(21:17):
that God can take something badand turn it into good. And you
know, and it's just yeah, so,you know, it's just little
things like this. And you know,it's amazing. And, you know, I
kind of zipped through that. So,I mean, if you have any
questions you want me to kind ofdetail on, I'd be happy to. But
that's that's the story of thatwhat's in the book, there's a

(21:37):
lot more to it. The one thing Iwill tell your listeners is I
put questions at the end ofevery chapter because this is
the teacher in me guys. BecauseI wanted I saw their reflection
discussion questions. So youcould use this as a as a 15 week
study with a grant. Or you canjust you can read the whole
book, go back and answer but Ireally would recommend that you
do the questions because I'vetried to design them to really

(21:59):
make you look into your heart,and and to question your faith
and your relationship with God.
Because for me, thetransformation was self
awareness. I had to know who Iwas and who I was in my heart.
And then just getting into theWord and understanding the word
because I think self evaluationis a key to finding freedom.
Because it even says in thePsalms, God Cleanse my heart of

(22:20):
anything that's not a view, andplay, replace it. And when you
start to walk, and you startyour sanctification process,
your old habits start to getuncomfortable, because you know
that they're not godly. Andthat's those old habits that you
have to start looking at. Andthen you have to start looking

(22:41):
at who you who you hurt, who youpossibly had transgressions
against. And you have to startexamining those and asking for
forgiveness. And that's thetough part of Christianity. My
favorite author, I already saidAJ Swoboda, he says that
Christianity is messy after youmeet Jesus than it was before
you met Jesus. And it's becauseof the self examination. And

(23:01):
that's a key. Because you haveto you can you know, the world
is full of evil, but we haveevil in us. And you have to
examine that evil within you, inorder to truly remove the veil,
and be able to communicate andhave a relationship with God.

Yeah, you know, I love that God wastes nothing.
I mean, it's so good. And it'sthat surrender. Our stories are
eerily similar in certain areas.
Mine doesn't have the Marines init. And I actually married a
drug dealer early on, so Iwasn't one but, you know, pretty

(23:42):
attractive. Apparently. So,yeah. But that was early on.
But, um, you know, I think thatis, it's amazing when you get to
that place of true surrender,which is really, very backwards
from what the world teaches us.

(24:04):
And is saying, Gosh, you know,God, I cannot do it anymore. On
my own. Either you take over,I'm done. And and I love I love
that because it's so true. Yeah.

Well, if you you've heard of Tony Evans, yes. Okay.
So, Tony, I've okay. So I usedto, I listened to his podcast
still. And so one, right aroundthat November 2016. I'm
listening to his podcast and hegoes, I'm going to tell you the
only Bible the only verse in theBible, that's not true. Okay, I
want to hear that. It's in Ibelieve it's in Second

(24:42):
Corinthians. It's the it's theverse that said, God will only
give you what you can handle.
And if you can't handle it,he'll provide a way out now
he'll provide a way out but he'sgoing to give what Tony said is,
he's going to give you more thanyou can handle because if you
can handle it, you don't need toturn to him. So he's gonna give
you more than you can handle soyou fall on your knees and ask
for help. And then he willprovide a way out And I love
that. And that's what happenedto me. I had so much on my

(25:02):
shoulders that I couldn't do it.
And you know that in listeningto what you just said, you know
that, that it's harder for aman, I think, and this is where
my part of my book talks aboutthis is, because we have to lay
down our pride, we have a senseof pride that most women don't.

(25:23):
And because we're raised thatway, we're supposed to be the
top. We're supposed to be tough,and all this stuff, and we're
supposed to be rugged, and we'renot supposed to be weak, we're
supposed to be strong. And itsays, In the Bible, when we are
weak, you're strong. It took mea long time to understand that.
Because I was like, I don't wantto be weak. I'm not weak. Right,
you know. And so I think it'stougher for the men and the

(25:45):
vulnerability of it. And one ofthe things I love about what
Arlene and I did is we'reediting the book is, you know,
I, when I turned it into her,there was 14 chapters. And she
said, John, there's there weremissing something between what
was chapter 13, and 14, shegoes, we need a connection right
there. We need another chapter.
And I'm like, so what do youthink, and she goes, I want to
do an interview with you. And soshe interviewed me about how I

(26:06):
gave up the control. And what Iwould tell people to do to give
up to help them give up control,excuse me. And so we did this
hour long interview. And shetook some raw notes. And then
the next morning, I was doing mycardio, and I when I do cardio,
I listen to worship music, and Iread and I you know, so it's
kind of like I call it cardio inChrist, because it's my time

(26:26):
where I can be with God. And Iget a little exercise. And so I
was doing that. And I and Godstarted speaking to me. And so I
texted Arlene, and I said, hey,send me the wrong notes. I've
got some ideas. So she sent meover the wrong notes. And I took
the notes and I started writingup this thing, and then I sent
it back to her. And she goes,John, this is beautiful. We'll
we're going to make a little,some adjustments. And that ended

(26:47):
up being the 14th chapter. Andit's in the chapter title is
complete surrender. And ittruly, in my opinion, turned out
to be the best chapter of thebook. I love that. And so it's
it's an amazing, you know, andthat part of it is where I
challenge people, as you know,is you got to look at yourself
and see what you're doing. Andthere's so much in this world

(27:08):
that that distracts us and keepsus from trying to have that, you
know, time. You know,everybody's like, I don't have
the time to do that. Well, yougot to make the time.

Well, yeah. And you have to give up a little bit
of Netflix, right for for theWord of God. It's an it's hard.
Sometimes it's it's a hardbalance to know, yeah, this is
something I'm willing to giveup, right so that I can get
closer and have that intimacywith Christ.

Well, it says in the word we're supposed to
sacrifice, we have to sacrificefor a walk. And everybody
sacrifices different. One of mysacrifices is time because I get
up at 330 in the morning, everysingle day, for Saturday and
Sunday, Saturday, Sunday, Istill get up at 530. Because as
I started studying and workingwith Scotty the when it's called

(28:02):
the fourth watch, it's from 3am,to 6am. And that's the most
spiritual and demonic time ofthe, of the clock. And if you
look into the Bible, a lot ofthe significant events that
happened in the Bible happenedduring the fourth watch the
parting of the Red Sea, Jesuswalking on the water, his
capturing dissemination, there'sand those are just to name three
of them. But it's in so I usedto get woken up during that

(28:24):
time, and I was in I'd havethese weird dreams and
everything, but that was beingattacked at that time. And so
now I've turned it into prayerlife. And so in order for me to
stay grounded, that's what Ihave to do. And people are
people like you do what? Like,yeah, I mean, I get up at 330 in
the morning, I'm on my knees,I'm praying, and then I read.
And they're like, how do you getthrough the day? And I'm like,

(28:45):
it's easy, because I give himthat time. He gives me strength
to give out today. Exactly.
Right. And so you know, that'sit, you know, and I'm not
suggesting that everybody needsto do that. That's what works
for me. And that's the beauty ofthe book broken and redeemed is
it's it's not a how to book.
It's what I did. And some of thethings I did. But with some of
the things I did to get to thispoint, they might work for you.

(29:07):
The biggest part of my book,what you know, other than the
vulnerability part of it isdiscipleship part of it because
we need you have as a Christian,two things I believe, is you
have you're not attended to walkalone. So you have to have
fellowship horizontally withfellow people and fellow
Christians, then you have tohave the vertical relationship.
Well, the discipleship, youknow, Scotty discipled, me. So

(29:29):
I'm discipling other peoplebecause that's what I'm supposed
to do. And I outline the wholediscipleship problem process
that Scott to use with me in thebook, and it's a 10 step. We
call it the big 10. And it's inthe books God he gave me
permission to put it in there.
And it's basically a 10 stepplan to discipleship and and to
disciple another, you know,somebody who's just coming to
Christ, and you don't have youcould be a Christian for three

(29:51):
weeks. And if you follow thisplan, you could disciple
somebody. Yeah. So that's thebeauty of the plan. And so you
know that That's why I spend alot of time on work. You know,
that's one of the things I thinkGod wants me to do is work on,
you know, getting people todisciple because you know, the
greatest commission is go andmake disciples of the world.
Love your neighbor as yourself.

(30:12):
Two of the biggest commandments.
So I love

it, I want to go back to two things you talked
about. So I want to talk aboutthat. In my in my, in my day
job, I run a nonprofit, okay.
And we do prevention educationon human trafficking, safety and
healthy relationships. And oneof the things that we we talk

(30:36):
about all the time is that weoften hear human trafficking
looks very different than whatwe think it looks like. And we
often hear about females who aretrafficked. And we don't often
hear about the males who aretrafficked, but they are and
they can be traffic almostequally, depending on the
community you're in. And whenwhen we're talking to kiddos and

(31:00):
adults. That's one of the thingsI ask is tell me why we only
hear about females beingtrafficked. And it's exactly
what you said, males are notdisclosing.

Right. Because the shame, I think, the shame for a
male and here's the thing, mybrother was molested, my
youngest brother was molested bya guy that my mom was dating and
the the shame that he carriesfrom that is caused a lot more
issues. And I've my brother wasa drug addict, forever. And when
his wife passed away, I movedhim in with me. And I was trying

(31:39):
to disciple him and stuff. Andyou know, I told him, You know,
I want him to experience thefreedom that I have. But he's
got to deal with that. Andthat's the hardest part, you
know, because he was an Iraqiwar veteran. So he has PTSD from
the war. But I told him, I said,Jason, your PTSD has started
when you were a kid, you hadthat before you went to Iraq,
that just compounded things. Andyou know, I talked to his

(32:02):
counselor once and he had beenwith this. And she was a PT,
PTSD. PSTD. Expert. Yes. And shewas an expert, and she didn't
even know about Jason'schildhood trauma. And because I
haven't gotten to that point,wow, he hadn't disclosed it.
Because here's the thing. He'sso shameful of it. And I think
that's where men, you know, themen carry that because it's not

(32:25):
supposed to happen. No, I'm, I'msupposed to defend myself. And
that's where society has thatboundary. And that's what, you
know, mental health counseling,because I got really involved in
in Miami, I'm sure, you know,National Alliance of Mental
Health. So I'm really involvedwith the Pierce County Chapter,
because the mental health lawsin the state of Washington are
terrible, because I was tryingto get my brother involuntarily

(32:46):
detained, because he was justgoing crazy. And I couldn't, you
know, and it's just insanetrying to do that. So I've
learned a lot about that in theit's just the male population,
the vulnerability that they haveto give up. It's super hard for
them, because it's that ego andpride and until you've let that
go, you truly can't bevulnerable with the people are

(33:07):
trying to write and help you.

And we're, it's ingrained certainly in the
United States, hey, men don'tcry, suck it up, buttercup,
right? To say that, and that'sone of the things we say, in the
classroom, if you are ever beinghurt by someone, or if you're
ever and it's okay to tell andtell someone and still tell

(33:33):
someone until because theproblem is that when boys do
disclose to

to people don't believe,

well don't believe that they don't. They
don't believe girls a loteither. But it worked for boys.
Yeah, right, that that is suchan important piece.

So I'm gonna give you another book to read.
Because I just met this younglady. Her name is Christine
soli. And her book is calledBroken and beautiful. Okay, and
she she was trafficking. And thebook is about her redemption,
and coming out of herbrokenness, and she runs a
similar program that you do uphere in the state of Washington.

(34:09):
One of my high school friendsused to live next door to
Christine and when when I'veshared the title of my book, she
goes, John, you guys need tomeet. Yeah, so I actually went
up to where her facility is,it's called Providence,
Providence heights. And shetoured me the through the
facility, we talked about eachother story. We got it. I got a
great picture on Facebook. Andit's she's holding my book, and
I'm holding her book. And I toldher, I said, when when my book

(34:31):
finally gets to the bookstore, Isaid we need to do a book
signing tour, and we'll call itbroken and beautifully redeemed.
captures both arts you know, andthen in here's the thing, think
about the power of this. Now youhave a female and a male talking
about all of this stuff togetheron time. And I think it would be
a great thing and she loved theidea. So who knows, you know if
God wants us to do it, let us doit. But it was just it was super

(34:53):
good to meet her and for you andyou're in your program. It would
be a good book to take a look atat And she, you know, it's an
awesome, you know, you guys do agreat thing. And it's amazing,
you know, and keep up the works.
Because it's, it's it's soneeded because the trafficking
industry is just insane

is it is and I think that, you know, the other
thing I really wanted to bringup, I think we talk about
sacrifice and Christianity. Andthat is so important. And here,
even in some of the hardshipsthat we deal with the trauma
that we deal with, we still asChristians don't even know what

(35:35):
true sacrifice is. In regards toother areas of our world. We've
got people who are told, okay,so you get to choose Jesus, this
is your opportunity, your familyis going to be killed. But this
isn't our home. And here's whatyou get, and people are flocking

(35:56):
to Christ in in areas like that.
Yeah,

we, we actually talked about that a couple of
weeks ago in my men's Biblestudy, because we're, we're
talking about Peter's denial ofJesus. Yeah. And yeah, and you
know, and, you know, what wouldyou do at that time? You know,
and we'd all like to sit hereand say that we would never do
that. Exactly. But I mean, as wetalk, well, but here's, you

(36:23):
know, here's the thing, Petersaw what crucifixion is, right?
You know, I mean, we only seenpictures of it. And, to me, the
best depiction of that is MelGibson's film, the passion. You
know, and, you know, I but Istudied Chris, I studied
crucifixion, I looked it up, Iread about it, and I talked in
and found out what it does tothe body. And, you know, and so,

(36:47):
would you have stood with him?
Or would you deny them, youknow, are you and so, you know,
and then so we Yeah, I flippedthe switch with my small group.
I said, Okay, well, what if youwere in a, in a country, and if
you didn't profess if you had achoice, either profess your
faith or deny it, because if youdon't deny your faith, they're
going to cut your head off?
That's correct. Yeah, you'regonna, are you gonna stay with

(37:08):
Jesus? Right, you know, and Iand so that's, uh, you know,
it's, it's, and there's peoplethat do, and, you know, we hear
about it all the time. And, youknow, it's when it comes to that
that's the true sacrifice. Andyou know, and, you know, it's,
it's, no, You never,

yeah, well, and I think when and this is not our
topic, but I think when you lookat end times, when you look at
what could ultimately happen, weare going to have an opportunity
to and we do all the time and indifferent facets of life, but
you're either for me or you'reagainst me. And you might have a

(37:44):
moment where you say, Okay, Ihave to make that decision. And
that's where I think weremember, you know, I think
about what you've gone throughand I think about the thing that
you've the things you'veexperienced, this is not our
home.

Yeah, it's not your home. And the thing I think you
need to focus on is, is thesacrifice that Jesus made. Yes.
Okay. That's, that's the thing Ithink that a lot of Christians
don't think about enough is, youknow, and we're approaching
Easter. So it's a good time tostart reflecting on that, but
But what he did, and what hewent through for us, right, and

(38:20):
and if you're a true believer,there's no way you can deny him
if you have a true relationship.
And I think that's one of theproblems with our Christianity
today is too many people. Justsay, Hey, I'm a Christian, I
believe in God. And that's it.
Yeah. They don't they don't getdeeper into the word. They don't
do that. And then they then ifsomebody asks him, you know,

(38:40):
they go, Huh, not me, becausethey don't want their friends to
go, oh, man, you're weird,because that, you know, and I
asked, you know, when didChristianity become so uncool?
You know, and it's even more.
It's more so for our youngergeneration, because it's, it's
looked down upon, and I thinkprobably part of it is, is, you
know, and I, and I don't want tooffend anybody, but there are

(39:02):
there are a lot of hypocriteswho are Christian. And I've seen
him. And I think that's part ofthe problem, because the number
one people the number one reasonthat people leave the faith of
Christianity is because they seetoo much judgment and hip
hypocrisy, because people claimto be Christians, and they don't
walk. And so that that puts ablack eye on the on the on
Christianity. Well, you look atsome

Christian homes and the abuse that goes on, and
the I mean, and I mean, allthose things. We we there is a
lot of hypocrisy. In the church.
Pornography Addiction hasincreased tremendously. And
there's, I mean, I could go onand on. Yeah, and I think that
that is the bottom line. It'snot about believing in him

(39:48):
following and being surrenderedto Him.

It's abiding that I call it fighting. It's abiding.
That's my favorite word. Yeah,yeah. What does it say in the
Bible that you're supposed todo? And then you try, and I'm
gonna say it this way you try todo that because you're not going
to be perfect. Because we havesinful nature. Paul told us that
and we're going to stumble. Imean, my I used to have a really
wicked temper. It still comesout every now and then. Okay,

(40:16):
but it's less and so what I tellpeople to is, as you grow in
Christ, you still have theability to sin and you might
sin, but you sin less. And it'sbecause you start to start to
feel those things and you go,Okay, I'm not gonna let this
thought become a transgressionand let that transgression
become a sin. And so you startto see that if you're truly

(40:37):
walking and you've in your inthe word and you're looking
listening to the Word so yeah,it's when you know

few thin you repent. Yes, that's the key.

So you know who AW Tozer is, if you have an aid, I
have several books. Okay. LoveTozer. And he said, he said,
when, if you sin he goes, thenyou just repent and don't do it
again, or try not to do itagain. But he also said in one
of his books, and I don'tremember which one, he said that
our sinful nature is so bound upin us that it has to be ripped

(41:10):
out of us like a tooth beingripped out of a jaw. Okay, and
I'm like, perfect example ofwhat it is. And it's because of
that, and it's gonna take awhile for him to do that I
talked about this in my book, Itake the cross, as an example.
And I feel that God usedcrucifixion to show us that our
old self is going to take sometime to leave us because

(41:31):
crucifixion is a slow, verypainful death very slow. And so
our old life is not going to diequickly, it's going to take a
little bit of time, and there'sgoing to be some pain. And
that's what I talked about theself examination. And so your
transformation from who you wereto your new life, is a
crucifixion. And, you know, inmy mind, and and it's, it's

(41:54):
painful. But it's also ablessing. There's two sides of
broken, you know, there's thebroken of the world. And, you
know, it could be, you know, theabuse I went through is my
brokenness, but there's also thebeautiful side of broken, where
I call it the glorious side ofbroken that God breaks you down,
so that he can mold you back towhat he wants you to be. So
yeah,

it's it's definitely, I it's, it's
ongoing. I mean, that's thething I love. I always tell
people, I had a real hard timewith pride in certain areas of
my life. And God took me througha year long study, just him and

(42:35):
me on humility. And it was themost painful study I have ever
done in my entire life. But whatit was so amazing, and it's not
that I don't have pridefulthoughts anymore, I absolutely
do. And now it's like, Okay,God, that's yours, your take
that, right. And I would say yetyou you really want, you really

(43:00):
want to jump off that pedestalbefore God knocks your dial is
not a good place to be.

Nope. And you know that and that's you have to
humble yourself every single dayin front of the cross. And
that's the thing that, you know,your prayer life has to resemble
that. And, you know, one of thethings I always talk about, and
my prayer is, you know, Godrenew my mind for today, because
Paul talks about the renewing ofthe mind. And he mentioned that
numerous times in his, in his,you know, letters to to the

(43:31):
various churches is you have torenew your mind. And because
that's where the battle wages,and you have to do that on a
daily basis, daily,

daily, and, and sometimes forgiveness is a
daily. Oh, absolutely. You know,I mean, forgiveness is not a
feeling it is absolutely achoice. And it is sometimes
something that you have to Okay,wait, I forgive that person. Oh,
yeah, I forgive that person. Igive it to

you. So let's talk about that for a second. Yeah.
And you know, I love thisbecause God's actually taken
over this conversation and Ilove it. So let's talk a little
bit about forgiving, especiallyin the line of work you're in
because you you have people whohave been victimized sexually or
anything like that. And it's,it's tough for those people to
forgive. And yet, as aChristian, we're have we have to

(44:22):
forgive. And what I tell peopleis forgiveness doesn't erase
what took place. It erases thepain in the shame and guilt of
that, because it frees you as aperson when you forgive, but it
doesn't erase what what happenedand and there's still
consequences. Because if you ifyou have a sin word, there could

(44:42):
be consequences like legalconsequences. Yes, you're going
to face those consequences.
God's gonna get you through itto the best of the ability, but
you still have to forgive.
That's right. And you have toface those consequences and I
think one of the one of the andI really I saw that one night
when I was watching the movieThe Shack. And if you've seen

(45:04):
it, that the part where he takesthe lead character and hit him,
and he forces him to forgive theperson who killed his daughter,
you know, that's, that'd betough, you know? And, and I was
watching that. And I was like,wow, that's true forgiveness,
you know, and I loved how theydepicted that in the movie so

well, and I think that the thing to always
remember about forgiveness isthat it really isn't necessarily
for the other person. It's forus, yes, yes, holding on to that
anger. And bitterness and hateis actually more painful and

takeover. Right, and it blocks you because it
keeps the veil and keeps a veilover your eyes, and you can't
truly see what God's wanting youto see. And that's, that's,
that's the forgiveness that youhave to have. You know, and if
you hurt somebody, you can askthem forgiveness, they might not
forgive you. But that's whereyour forgiveness with God, you
know, you've asked God, he'salready forgiven you, because
victory is already there. Butthat, you know, it's up to that

(46:00):
other person. And then if theysay, No, I'm not going to
forgive you, then you just keeppraying about it. And yeah,
hopefully someday they changetheir mind. You know, if
they're, if they're a Christian,then they should forgive you.
But if they're not, you know,it's going to be a little
tougher. Right. But I thinkthat's, that's one of the issues
we face is because people don'tunderstand the role of could
they think forgiveness is you'rewashing away the event and

(46:21):
you're not

well, there's, you know, forget, you know,
forgive and forget, right, youlook at the word forget, in the
Greek, the word actually meansto disregard. It's not about
wiping it from our mind. We'rejust not going to regard that
anymore. Right. So yeah, yeah,well, I could really relate to

(46:43):
what you were. So my biologicalfather was very abusive, very
violent. My mom escaped fromthat relationship when I was
only a year old, so very young.
And I always want my father,biological father was out of my
life didn't didn't contact me Iwas, and a huge part of my
story, but I always wanted to goand find him. Not to not to have

(47:07):
a relationship with, tell himScrew you. I did it on my own.
Right, and maybe punch him inthe eye

when I did. And here's the thing, go. So the
good side of that is after thatmy dad and I had a relationship
up until he died. He was that wewould talk every single Sunday,
you know, and it was it was a itwas a thing, and my dad would
marry married. My stepmom andhim were married actually longer
than my mom. And you know, he,and I kind of joked that she

(47:38):
tamed him because she was sotough. But she had a daughter
who was a heroin addict. And shedied on the delivery table. She
was giving birth, and she died.
So now my stepmom and my dadhave this baby boy who has some
birth defects, addiction. And mydad and my dad, and my, I mean,
they chose to raise that kid,and to watch my dad interact
with that child and to see whathe did. I could have been so

(48:00):
jealous of that, because he gavethat kid more than he gave us.
Right. But what I did is I went,that's him trying to make
amends. That's the way I lookedat that as as like he's trying
to make up for what he did. Andhe didn't want to make the same
mistake. And I truly believethat in my heart, and I, you
know, it's it was amazing towatch watching Matt, you know,

(48:20):
we're with Josh and stuff. Andmy my stepmom. You know, my dad
had a heart attack and passedaway. And it was it was funny,
because my, you know, my, mystep mom used to call me and
she's like, John, I need to talkto you about your dad because
they get into an argument orsomething. And I have to call my
dad when we talk about it. Andyou know, and she called me
once, one Saturday, and shegoes, John, I need to talk to

(48:42):
you about your dad. And I'mlike, what's going on? He goes,
she's gone. And I'm like, why heleft you? And she goes, No, he's
gone. And I'm like, Millie, whatdo you mean, he's, I said, he
moved out. She goes, No, hedied. I mean, she actually had
to say that because I wasn'tbelieving. And so I went back
for the service. And I looked ather cyst, I looked at my
stepsister, because Millie wasbattling pancreatic cancer. They

(49:02):
she had stage four pancreaticcancer. And, and I said, you
know, she, she's, she lived fortwo years. That's how tough this
lady was. But I looked at herdaughter, and I said, I'll be
back in three weeks. And it wasalmost three weeks to the day
when her stepdaughter when mystepsister called me and said,
Hey, John, you got to come back.
And so I went back for herservice, too. And so it's, you

(49:25):
know, it's, it's an amazingthing. But, you know, I truly
believe my dad made amendsthere. Yes,

absolutely. And God redeemed that relation.
Absolutely. That is amazing.

Yeah. And again, I wouldn't recommend that's the
way you start your redemption bypunching your dad in the face,
but

no, not necessarily. And here's the
here's the thing that because mybiological father, I never found
him and then I did find out Ifound his death certificate. Oh,
okay, here's the go. And heactually I'm a recovering
alcoholic and he actually diedof alcohol complication, you

(50:05):
know, alcoholic being analcoholic. And so a lot of it,
you know, just really clicked,you know a lot of the things,
but that redemption, really thatthat God did with me had to
happen just gotten me. You know,I had to forgive my biological
father. He didn't ask forforgiveness. I didn't talk to

(50:26):
him, I just did it, becausethat's what God called me to do.
And then the freedom that comesout of that, oh, yeah, it was
the anger I had for so manyyears is debilitating.
Absolutely. And

it tell you, it actually makes you more fatigued
you it's exhausting, because youspend so much energy on it. And
you know, and that's, and that'ssomething that it's hard to
understand when you're goingthrough it. Because it's so
overwhelming. And you know, theend, you just have to rest in
the peace and the glory of God,because it's just, you know,

(51:03):
that's the only way you're gonnaget through it. And yeah, it's
just yeah.

So I think to knowing because in the work that
I'm a survivor of sexual anddomestic violence, I've, I've
had the all the things. And inthe work that I do, I see a lot
of women who are so angry,because of and rightly so.

(51:28):
Right. Because Absolutely,because of the violence that has
been perpetrated on them andthings like that. But that's not
where God wants us to lay. And

I get it because my mom was that way. She was super
bitter to her whole life. Andshe ended up passing away
without giving all that up. Andso she she died a lonely, bitter
woman. And it's sad, it was sadto watch this because as, as she
started deteriorating andhealth, I was actually getting
deeper in the word and I kepttelling my mom, Mom, you got to
forgive, you got to forgive. Andyou know, you got to let it go.

(52:00):
It's not, you know, it wasn'tyour fault. You know, because
and I think that's the toughestthing. And, and you can relate
to it because you were a victimof that is it's the victim
always places the blame onthemselves. And that's so and
see, that's the part of thepsychology that's just blows me
away, because it's how do youtake somebody's violated you
when you were young or whatever,or beat you up that you know, to

(52:23):
just control you. And yet youfeel that you caused it. That's
the weirdest part of our mind.
And if you could solve that, youknow, and and you know, to the
people that are listening, ifyou if you are a victim of that
it's not your fault. Get help.
Yeah, and you probably blamedyourself for a while before you
got healed too. So you know,

I did and for a very long time. And what's so
interesting too, is I was I wasraped several times in college,
in high school, college and asan adult. Now, here's what's so
interesting. And I think thatyou really hit on this. I did

(53:04):
not I was involved in this work.
So it was like, maybe threeyears ago or so doing this work
every day. And I realized, oh,my gosh, I was in a
presentation. I was speakingsomewhere. And I was speaking
with a trauma therapist, and wewere together. And I never knew
knew I was raped. Because Ialways blamed myself, I never

(53:29):
looked at. I was like, well, itwas my fault. That was drug or
it was my fault for whateverreason. Right? Right. And it
wasn't until several years agothat I recognized that what
happened to me. And so that isone of the things that sometimes
same thing with individuals whoare trafficked, so many don't
self identify as victims. Andthat is where that mind really

(53:52):
does play that trick. Like I didthis. This was my fault. Yeah.
And God comes in and swoops inand says, Nope, it's not your
fault. Right. And I love you.
And I am here to bring youhealing. Absolutely. Absolutely.
Oh, good. I so appreciate thisconversation. Oh,

yeah. Yeah, no, it just looked down at the clock
and I'm like, it's been an hourWow. Yeah.

This is released, your book will be out.
So I will make sure to make haveall of that in the notes. So
tell me John, how do people findyou?

The easiest way is my website and it's broken every
game.com I have all myinformation on there and links
to social media and everythinglike that. So that's the easiest
way is go to the website. Andyou know, there's a lot more
information about the book andthere's some reviews on it so
people can, you know, read whatother people think. And it's,
it's, so that would be where I'ddirect them and you know, again,

(54:56):
April, April 5 is the e booklaunch and then April 6, or
August 16, it'll be in everybookstore you can imagine, I did
a podcast with a gentleman inAustralia, and it's already, you
can pre order the book inAustralia and the UK. And so
and, you know, so and that's acredit to Morgan James, you

(55:17):
know, they, they do a worldwidedistribution. And that's the
truly humbling part of this,Stephanie is because, you know,
I'm going to this book is goingto touch people's lives that I
won't even know about. And youknow, it's because it's, it's
around the world. And it's, it'shumbling. And so I challenge
your listeners, if they do readthe book, and it touches them
and they have a transformation,please submit it to my website,

(55:39):
so I can put up a testimonialabout it, because that's what I
want to be able to do is showthe impact of the book and
everything like that. So

I love that I love that God wastes nothing. I
love it. So final question, whatresilience mean to you?

For me, resilience is just, it's, I almost want to
change the word to perseverance.
Because it's, it's, it's stayingwith the process and the method
until and and I don't want tosay until you get the results
but but work, it's just keepingwith it. So the resiliency of
your sanctification, there yougo. And because it's, it's it's
a continuing thing and willnever be done until we go home

(56:18):
and be with the Father. And tobe resilient is to do what it
takes to stay. On Course. That'show I would define that.

I love that. I love that. Well, John, I really
enjoyed this. I would love tokeep in touch. You're doing
amazing work and, and hopefullyit'll stay sunny for you a
little bit.

Yeah, it'll probably be it'll probably be
pouring down rain tomorrow. Butthat's okay. I joke. Stephanie.
I joke with people all the time.
I tell me, you know, it onlyrains twice a year here in the
Northwest. It's It's January toJune and June to December so but
no, it's it's a beautiful,here's the thing, summertime,
it's one of the most beautifulplaces in the world. So that's,
that's one of the reasons why Istay up here. But, but listen to
you keep doing what you're doingthe amazing work you're doing.

(57:07):
And stay with it. I you know, Itruly, you know, this is
definitely a God thing for us tome and to speak. And, you know,
I'd love to stay in touch andyou know, later down the road if
you want to, you know, have meback on. I'd be glad to I would
love to Oh, so actually mypastor and I are talking about
starting a podcast. So if we dowe'll ask you to come on. So

(57:27):
that

would be a divine appointment right here.
Yeah. Well, thank you so much,and we will talk to you again
and thank you for listening toresilience in life and
leadership. We'll see you nexttime. Thank you for listening.
Please share with anyone youthink will benefit from this
podcast.

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