October 8, 2023 • 33 mins
Discover the power that lies in strategic pricing in our insightful conversation with Mark Peacock, Managing Director of Pricemaker. Gain a new perspective on the role of pricing in driving business growth and profits, and learn about the implications of the current economic climate on pricing strategies from an industry expert. Join us as we delve into Mark's career journey and his unique insights into adopting a customer-centric approach to pricing.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to the productivity podcast.
Today, I am joined by MarkPeacock, who is the managing
director of Pricemaker Hi Mark.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
Hi, simon, great to be here.
Thanks very much for having meand looking forward to the chat
today.
Speaker 1 (00:14):
No, yeah, I'm fascinated by this one.
We did we kind of met, didn'twe, early this year at
Nottingham Trent Union, when wewere both asked to do a session
and speak, and I was fascinatedby your session Not something
I've ever been directly involvedin from my days in retail in
terms of setting prices, butclearly in our business, in
(00:35):
terms of consultancy andprofessional services, we have
to do that.
But even for those listeningtoday that aren't actually
involved in setting the price, Ithink this is going to be a
fascinating insight into theworld of pricing.
Clearly, we're in a tougheconomic environment where
things are spiraling upwards.
But before we dive into thedetail mark, let's find out a
(00:55):
bit more about you.
So do you want to tell us a bitabout yourself, your kind of
career background, how you gotto be managing director at?
Speaker 2 (01:02):
Pricemaker, of course .
Yeah, thank you, simon, andthanks for having me here today.
So my background is incorporate.
I was in corporate life for 25years working for large brand
organizations like DHL and theAA and worked in all sorts of
roles in marketing, productmanagement, running sales teams
and then running a largedivision of one of the various
(01:25):
companies.
So pricing was played a part inwhat I did, whether it was a
marketing promotion, having tocome up with a new product and
set the price for it, or justunderstanding the impact of
price on your P&L as a P&L owner.
And when I left a few years backnow, six years ago, to start my
(01:46):
own business, I decided tofocus on price because nobody
else seems to really talk aboutit right.
There's loads of businessadvisors and business coaches
and marketing gurus andfinancial advisors and what have
you, and they might touch onthe subject of price, but I
don't think anybody out there isreally looking at it properly
(02:07):
from a strategic level, unlessyou're in the market for advice
from you know, the likes ofMcKinsey or one of the other big
four consultants here.
So I work with the small tomedium sized end of the market
and help companies in that space, improve their pricing because,
as we talked about, you know,pricing is one of the most
(02:30):
powerful levers you can use todrive growth and increase
profits.
Yet all too often, businessowners, business leaders, are
scared to do things with price.
They are fearful of makingchanges, you know, sometimes for
good reasons, so they end upnot doing anything.
And what I like to try and showpeople is that there are lots
(02:52):
of different ways to think aboutprice and there's usually
always a better way to thinkabout applying your pricing than
you're currently doing today.
So hopefully I can share a fewideas today with your listeners
to help them with that thinking.
Speaker 1 (03:08):
Brilliant, looking forward to it.
So, as I touched on in kind ofthe intro, it's topical, isn't
it?
Because we're in a climatewhere costs are going up, the
cost of living is going up,interest rates going up I think
at the time of recording todayit's muted that they're going to
go up again, unfortunately, andat some point they'll come down
.
So it's not forever.
(03:30):
But what does that do in termsof from your world?
How does that make people startto think about value?
Does cheap always win?
Is it more about quality?
How do all those things thenstart to come into play when
we're in a kind of market whereit's all going up?
Speaker 2 (03:51):
It's interesting, isn't it?
And it's a difficult time forboth, you know, consumers,
homeowners, and for businesses.
I mean, if we just roll back acouple of years and just compare
where we are now to pre well,maybe pre COVID, but certainly
the spike in energy costs andthe rising in interest rates,
(04:13):
you know, for the most of thelast decade inflation was at
practically zero and we just gotused as businesses to not
thinking about price too muchand not really doing much with
it.
So I think we got stuck in ourways in terms of, you know,
managing price and, you know,maybe increasing it once a year
(04:35):
for inflation, but not reallygiving it the attention it
deserves.
And then, all of a sudden, ofcourse, over the last year and a
half, especially in the UK,inflation has shot up and
interest rates have shot up, andI think that has forced many
businesses to have to put theirprices up, whether they like it
(04:56):
or not, because they recognizethat their costs have increased
significantly and if they don't,they'll be going backwards in
terms of their net profits.
So that's the right thing to do.
So my focus, generally speaking,is always on helping businesses
improve their pricing, by whichI usually mean increase, but
(05:19):
doing it in a way that helps,helps them sell more, and does
and allows people to do it in away that is a customer friendly
way.
So that's how I look at it fromthe business side of things.
From the customer side ofthings, of course, it's very
different.
You know, we've seen, you know,food prices, you know, for
(05:44):
example, shoot up in the lastyear, and it's very, very
difficult for many consumers andmany household owners out there
.
So I think, how do we, how dowe deal with this, how do we
justify it?
How do we, how do we make itbetter?
It's something that we need topay an awful lot of attention to
, and you know, I do worrysometimes that pricing is left
(06:09):
to last in our business thinking, because it's so fearful and
difficult and scary, and I'dmuch rather think about coming
up with a new product, a newmarketing campaign, a
productivity improvement orwhatever it is to try and drive
profit growth than thinkingabout pricing.
(06:31):
So, yeah, so I think there's,you know there's lots of ways to
tackle this.
Where do you want to start withthat conversation or that
question, simon?
Speaker 1 (06:43):
let me ask you that I think it does.
I suppose that there's anunderlying bit of.
We've been, I suppose in thatperiod you talked around of low
inflation and people maybe doingmore yearly price changes or
more or less reactive stuffdriven that value always wins.
I'm just resonate with you, Imean.
Speaker 2 (07:08):
Well, when we say value here, let's just be clear
what we mean when what I thinkwhat you're referring to is
value ranges of products, likewe see with Tesco value range
and supermarket.
So that's what we're referringto when we say value, in other
words cheap.
So does cheap always win?
Well, it, okay.
(07:30):
I mean, I think the the, thereceived wisdom is that in any
given markets there's only roomfor one or two Players who can
win on the on the value basis.
So I'll be a little for example.
You know the good examples oforganizations that seem to be
(07:53):
doing very well for themselves.
I think they're Revenue for allthese grown by like 19% in the
last year.
So they very much focus on costmanagement, limited ranges, no
frills in terms of promotionsand you know what you're getting
.
So it can work.
But your whole organization hasto be geared around that
(08:16):
Business strategy, because it isa fundamental, it is a core
business strategy.
But make no mistake, there isonly only one or two people can
be the leaders in the valuespace.
You can't be third, fourth orfifth place and still win,
because basically there's alwayssomebody cheaper than you.
(08:37):
So how on earth you know whatis your competitive advantage.
So how, how could somebodyattempt to compete with the an
Audi equivalent If they're notas cheap as Audi?
So it's a guarded yes.
It can work differently andclearly does work.
(08:57):
About your a your wholeorganizational strategy has to
be built to support it and be.
You've got to maintain thatmarket leadership or that first
or second place position At allcosts, and I think the yeah.
Go on, simon.
Speaker 1 (09:16):
It must come down to volume, and doesn't it as well,
exactly that price point you'vegot to be putting the volume
through to make the margin.
Speaker 2 (09:24):
Yeah, exactly, economist of scale, efficiencies
, all of those things I mean.
Costco is a great example of anorganization from a pricing
point of view that's reallyinteresting.
So their background, theirwhole ethos, was that they would
never charge more than 15%gross margin, which is a tiny
amount when you think about itgiven all their overheads.
(09:45):
But they are ruthless in howthey manage their organization,
their teams, their customerinteractions and so on.
But their their secret sourceis the, the fee they charge
their, their members, for annualmembership.
So you have to pay about Ithink it's about 30 quid a year
(10:11):
To be a costco member and Ithink they make as much or as
more money from that price thenas they do from all of their
retail sales.
So there's ways and means is thepoint I'm trying to make there.
That's known as a kind of twostage pricing approach.
Amazon Prime has the same model.
You know you have to pay anannual fee to be an Amazon Prime
(10:33):
member, but then you getadditional benefits on top of
that for next day delivery andfree access to films and what
have you.
So there's a degree ofcreativity, I think, which can
really help.
Well, it's help thosebusinesses, clearly, but I think
I would encourage Listeners tothink a little bit outside the
(10:54):
box and think well, how else canwe monetize what we do in a way
that our customers appreciate?
Just putting up prices is areally hard thing to do, and we
can talk about that in a second.
Thinking slightly morecreatively about how we price
and how we charges, that there'soften some nuggets or some
(11:14):
Great ways that we can find tomake a difference.
Speaker 1 (11:21):
You talk there about kind of prices rising.
Everybody in retail is alwayskeen to tell you that prices
have come down, something tooffer, something to sale.
I'm sure everybody listening isexperienced.
Even if you just take yourlocal supermarket walking around
and thinking all pastors goneup, all the Triples are gone,
all pizzas have gone up andclearly they're not gonna shout
(11:43):
about that and tell us so thatmust take some Difficult
decisions to understand whetherI'm gonna increase that price by
10%, 20%, 50%.
So how do you find creativeways to increase price?
Speaker 2 (11:58):
Yeah, so I'm going to a simple example that we see a
lot in retail, and particularlysupermarkets, is obviously
offering a discount, offer, ahigher price.
So for a tub of butter was onepound, one pound 20, and we want
to charge one pound 30.
And so we say, well, theheadline price is now one pound
(12:21):
50 and there's a 20p reductionand that's how it gets marketed.
Obviously, you need to makesure that you're you know there
are certain regulations aroundthat.
So the the product needs tohave been on sale at the
headline price for at least 30days prior to the promotion.
So you can't just make stuff up.
You've got to follow the ruleson this.
(12:43):
But the point there is this isabout the psychology of how, as
consumers, we like to buy things.
So as consumers and then Iinclude myself in that so even
as a pricing consultant and Iknow a lot of these tricks, you
know, as a shopper, you know westill get.
You know we still allowourselves to be influenced by
(13:05):
these tactics.
So, for example, the idea ofpresenting a high price anchor,
a headline price for a productand then offering a slightly
cheaper price through a discountor a promotion is a very
effective tactic of encouragingpeople to buy the product,
(13:25):
because we then have to thinkabout how do people make buying
decisions and when it comes toprice?
So let's assume somebody wantsthe product, but when it comes
to price, how are they judgingthe value of the price that
you're presenting to them?
If you just show them onenumber one pound 20, one pound
(13:47):
30 or whatever the number is,what do they compare that number
to?
They might compare it, if theirmemory is good, to the last
time they bought the product, Ithink all it's the same or it's
increased.
They might compare it to otherthings on the shelf or in the
store.
They might compare it tosomething else that's comparable
in their in their mind.
So they're looking for areference price to judge the
(14:10):
value of the product you'reoffering.
So you can influence thatdecision by creating your own
reference price, which is theheadline figure, the standard
retail price that it would havebeen if without the discount.
So just tapping into anunderstanding of the psychology
(14:32):
of pricing and behavioraleconomics is a really powerful
mechanism and once you get yourhead around it, it's not that
difficult to understand andapply.
Just on that subject, there'sanother rule of thumb that I
just wanted to offer yourlisteners, which is that, when
it comes to presenting discounts, is it better to present your
(14:57):
discount as a cash saving or asa discount saving?
And there's a basic rule ofthumb that says if the headline
price of your product is over100 100 pounds you should
present the discount as apercentage saving.
If it's under 100, you shouldpresent it as a cash saving.
(15:21):
So let's think of a 50 poundproduct.
We want to discount it by 20%,so the discount saving is 10
pounds.
So in that scenario, you'rebetter off presenting the saving
as the 20% discount, because asa shopper, as a buyer, we see
(15:43):
that the number 20 is biggerthan the number 10.
If you think about a 500 poundproduct where we want to offer a
20% discount, giving a 100pound saving, it's better to
offer or to promote the cashsaving by 100 pounds because 100
is bigger than 20.
(16:03):
So in our minds, the perceivedmagnitude of those digits for
the 100 pound saving is greaterthan the 20% discount number.
So there's this whole world outthere of an understanding of
the psychology of buying.
There's some great books Icould reference for your
(16:26):
listeners on that, and there'sloads of little tricks that you
can pick up on.
So I would say have a look atthat and see if you can find
some ways to change how youpresent your pricing, rather
than just worrying about whatthe what the change in price is
itself.
Speaker 1 (16:47):
Yeah, and there's been some press as well lately
around, kind of people holdingprice but reducing quantity, so
changing pack size, for example.
Speaker 2 (16:59):
Yep shrinkflation as it's called Okay, I didn't know,
I had a name, but there you goYep, yep, so you shrink the size
of the item in the package, butthe price stays the same.
So you know, I don't know, aMars bar was 80 grams and it's a
pound, and it's now 60 gramsand it's a pound.
So you saved 20% of your unitcost.
(17:22):
So your profit margin will haveincreased.
And Am I a fan of this?
Well, I think it's okay.
I think as consumers, we've cometo accept it and we might
crumble a bit the next time wetake a box of tea bags off the
shelf and there's only 80 bagsin the box, whereas last week
(17:43):
there was 100.
But I think we've kind of cometo accept it to a degree.
I think the flip side of thatis you've just got to be careful
that you're not seen asprofiteering at the expense of
the customer, because if theyget a sniff that you are, I
think that's a dangerous road tofollow and you can quickly lose
(18:06):
any loyalty that you might havebuilt up if people think you're
profiteering at their expense,particularly in the current
climate when household budgetsare so hard pressed.
So yeah, shrinkflation, that'sthe name for that trend.
Speaker 1 (18:21):
Simon.
It always feels a sneaky way ofdoing it, if I'm honest,
because unless you're payingparticular attention to the unit
price and so the cost perkilogram, per single, you kind
of don't really notice becausethe packaging stays the same
Exactly.
So I understand the logic, goodto know the name as well, but
(18:44):
it feels a sneaky way of doingthings because it's not, you
know, again keen to tell you ifthere's 20% extra free or the
size has got bigger.
If we've shrunk and kept thesame size, it's done by stealth.
Speaker 2 (18:58):
Although, interestingly, on that point, in
France, the one of the nationalsupermarket chains I think
they're called Car 4, I'm notsure if I pronounced that
correctly, but they've taken astand on this.
So they now put notices up intheir aisles highlighting their
suppliers products where thathas happened.
(19:18):
So they're taking a moralstance on this, I presume, in
the hope that it will engenderloyalty with their customers.
But they're calling outsuppliers who have done this to
make you know, to take, I guess,a moral stance on this and to,
you know, raise a bit ofawareness about the issue.
I'm not sure I can't imagineanyone doing that in the UK, to
(19:42):
be honest, but maybe it's aFrench mentality.
But yeah, I liked it, I thoughtit was an interesting
development.
So we'll see how well that isreceived by their suppliers in
the French supermarkets.
Speaker 1 (19:54):
Yep want to keep an eye on and we talked briefly our
fair around kind of the news ofI'll call it surge price.
But there's a particular pubchain that have announced that
your drinks are going to getmore expensive when it's busier.
Which kind of?
I suppose Uber do it already.
If you think about traintickets, they do it already.
(20:15):
So nothing, nothing new in ourworld, but clearly new in a
hospitality and legend.
Speaker 2 (20:23):
I say hospitality.
Speaker 1 (20:24):
Hotel rooms get busier when it's busier.
So right, I'll tell you aboutit's out there, but there seem
to generate some interestingpress around that concept.
Speaker 2 (20:34):
Yeah, and I think this is a really interesting
development because the pubmarket, which is where the store
is based, so it's one of thenational chains, so they own
slug and lettuce and pubs pubslike that so fairly well known
brand so they've taken thedecision to put up their prices
by up to 20 pp a pint at peaktimes and they explain the
(20:56):
reasons for this.
So in the pubs where this ishappening there's a board up
that gives all of the reasons.
So it's to pay for more staff,is to make sure the cleaning
protocols are followed, and afew other reasons I can't quite
remember now, but you knowthere's four or five reasons as
to why this was necessary.
So I think the initial reaction, certainly from customers on
(21:20):
social media, was prettynegative.
But I actually quite like it asa pricing strategy, because
demand, you know, on peak off,peak pricing has been around for
decades.
Right, we're used to it when webuy a train ticket or a bus
ticket.
It's very common now in hotels,but it's more usually known as
(21:43):
dynamic pricing, where you knowthe price of a room changes
based on the demand for theproduct.
So again, as consumers we'regetting more used to that as a
way of pricing.
So I think, as long as it'scommunicated clearly and
transparently and that customersand shoppers have a choice so
(22:09):
as long as I'm aware that it'sgoing to cost me more when I go
down to the pub on Friday night,I can choose not to go yeah, or
I can choose somewhere else.
So, as long as it's done withfull transparency, I think it's
probably quite a smart move.
I'd love to know what theaverage selling price and the
(22:32):
average profit margin is ontheir pints or their takings
during those peak hours thancompared with off peak.
I mean, the flip side of theargument, of course, is why
don't you reduce your priceswhen times are quiet?
But of course, I think it'sreasonable to say well, look,
(22:54):
those are our standard priceswhich we just hold throughout
the week.
But then at busy times there'sa very small increase.
I mean, and again I think, 20pon a pint.
Is it a lot?
Possibly not.
I think once the initialreaction is absorbed, people
will just take it and say OK,fine, two more pints please.
(23:17):
So the price increase itself islow enough not to be
problematic, which is the othertrick, of course, is don't be
too greedy.
So yeah, I think it's aninteresting development.
And well, either it'll fallflat on its face and they'll
stop the promotion or the priceinitiative, or the whole
industry will adopt it.
(23:37):
So I wouldn't be surprised if,in a year or two's time, most
pubs are offering or followingthat practice of increasing
pricing during busy times.
We shall see.
Speaker 1 (23:50):
Yeah, and, like you say, you try and book a hotel
room when I don't know Coldplay,taylor Swift and Outs beenrels
in Liverpool.
It will, it will work andeveryone will follow suit.
(24:27):
You could then see it splashingover into the coffee industry.
So you know, there's lots ofapplications where you start to
think I think, as a consumer, my, I just hold them to account of
.
If you're charging me more thanI expect not to be queuing for
a long time, I expect it to beclean because otherwise we're
(24:49):
back to the kind of shrinkflation bit you've just put.
Speaker 2 (24:52):
the prices up.
Yeah, yeah, I want fast serviceto the bar.
I expect you know everythingfully stocked bars and clean,
clean environments and etc.
Etc.
You know it's got to workproperly, it's got to work well
If I'm going to accept thosehard prices.
But yeah, I completely agree onthat.
Speaker 1 (25:12):
Interesting.
So we dynamic, dynamic pricingyeah, I think you would call it
surge pricing, but ultimatelyit's all.
It's all roughly the same thing.
Yes, it is.
And it brings me on to that andagain we talked about this, I
think you kind of covered it alittle bit when we're in
Nottingham, trent, uni, ranged,complexity and it.
(25:32):
And again, I was in my localsupermarket early this week and
I think we had the example of 24jams and ironically, I was
walked down the aisle and lookedat it again and thought, oh,
there's.
You know, how do you pick astrawberry jam when there's
eight different brands?
Four different styles are samewith things like peanut butter,
(25:54):
you know, sweet and unsweetenedcrunchy smooth, this brand, that
brand, there's too much.
And for me, as if I suppose itas my consumer brain, I just
look at it and think, well,that's too confusing, I'll buy
middle of the road or the onethat's on offer.
Yeah, yeah, is that complexity?
Speaker 2 (26:12):
a barrier it is.
So there's the paradox of toomuch choice.
There's a famous experiment itwas done in America where they
tested, they put on sale at amarket stall the farmers markets
on day one, a selection of 24different types of jam and they
(26:35):
you know they measured the salesand the you know the takings at
the end of the day.
And then they did the samething again next, the next day.
But they only offered sixvarieties of jam and they sold
more on the second day.
And that's because, you know,when it comes to making a buying
decision, if there's too muchchoice, it's really really hard
(26:56):
to make a decision, and we'veall experienced this.
Right, you could be browsing onAmazon for a you know some
electrical item, and there'shundreds of them and it's oh my
God, I can't even work out whichone's the best one.
So, as you say, you either pickthe cheapest one or kind of one
in the middle of the pack.
But if you're able, if you're.
So this doesn't really apply tosuper markets because they, you
(27:18):
know, have all of theircategory management approaches.
But if you're in control of thenumber of products that you
offer to your market, don'toverdo it, right, I mean the
ideal is three, three pricepoints a high, a medium and a
low priced product, so thatyou're kind of forcing the
(27:40):
consumer to make a faster,quicker decision and if you can
enable that to happen, they'remore likely to buy the product.
So I think in that jamexperiment, the you know, the
takings were 20% higher whenthey reduced the number of
products and items for sale.
And there was another similarexperiment with a jar of cookies
(28:05):
.
But it comes to the sameconclusion.
So you know, if the temptation,of course, is to show all of
your products in the hope thatsomebody will buy something, but
be careful you're not puttingtoo much stress onto the
customer in terms of the buyingdecision you're inviting them to
(28:27):
make, because too much choicecan be counterproductive.
So you try and focus on, youknow, the key, the key products,
the key items in your rangethat are really going to be
valuable and more likely topeople.
I would say.
Speaker 1 (28:44):
You're kind of back to the discounted model or the
Audi in the middle, aren't you Agood, better, best.
So an unknown brand, an unknownbrand and something in the
middle.
Speaker 2 (28:54):
Yeah, exactly, and that's a great technique.
You know good, better, best.
So they've got a good enoughproduct at the lowest price, a
middle product, slightly betterproduct at a medium sized price
and the best product at apremium price.
So we don't expect many peopleto buy the premium product.
But it's really important thatyou show that in your range
(29:15):
Because, again, it acts as aprice anchor and that's how
customers, that's how we all,judge prices.
So if I see a price andexpensive price, a 10 pound
product, a five pound productand a two pound product, 99% of
people won't buy the 10 poundproduct.
And for most people thequestion is well, which of the
(29:35):
other two best meets my needs?
At a price I'm willing to paythe three pound product or the
five pound product.
And most of the time peoplepick the middle option because
it's the least risky one.
I don't want the cheapest,because it's not good enough, I
can't afford the most expensive.
So I'm going to take the middlepriced option and that's a
really, really.
And that idea works pretty muchin any business, whether it's
(30:00):
retail, consulting services,events, whatever.
The kind of good, better, bestapproach to your product
offering and your pricing can bevery effective, so that's well
worth looking at as well.
Speaker 1 (30:13):
Simon, yeah, definitely, yeah, I love that
one, I think for me the most,the three most confusing markets
trying to buy insurance,mortgages and cars because you
can read all the reviews, youcan look at all the price points
and there's always somethingslightly better or something
with, and you can go on foreverand almost never commit.
Speaker 2 (30:35):
Exactly it's.
Yeah, I mean, they're hugelycomplex markets with thousands
of different options, so it isvery difficult, yeah, and you
end up making shortcuts.
As a customer, when you'remaking a buying decision, you
either go with a brand thatsomebody's recommended to you an
insurance brand or you go witha car choice because you sat in
(30:56):
your mate's car the other weekand it was nice, or whatever.
So we tend to end up usingshortcuts mental shortcuts,
which are known as heuristics tocome to a decision which aren't
necessary.
And that decision isn'tnecessarily based on completely
rational logic.
It's more often based on theemotional biases that we all
(31:20):
have, which lead us to adecision that you might not
otherwise have expected if youwere just looking at it
rationally.
But that's a whole other topic.
Speaker 1 (31:30):
Absolutely so.
Before we close, do you want totell us about the book that
you've written?
Speaker 2 (31:36):
Oh, yes, I will Thank you.
So I published my book earlierthis year called Pricing for
Success.
It's got the seven step planfor winning more customers at
better prices, so it's very easyto read.
There's no complicated maths orcharts in there.
It's very much designed withthe small to medium sized
(31:56):
business owner in mind.
There's lots of examples andlots of templates and sets of
questions and ideas that you canthen think about using in your
business.
So the aim is that you get someideas or some hints or tips
from it that can help you withyour business.
Available on Amazon in bothpaperback and Kindle versions.
(32:21):
So, yeah, it's called Pricingfor Success by Mark Peacock,
that's me Good.
Speaker 1 (32:26):
Thank you very much, mark's been a fantastic chat.
It reminds me of some of thethings we went through when you
presented it at Nottingham Union.
It was a fascinating kind ofhour, hour and a half listening
to you, so really appreciateyour time coming on.
If people want to reach out toyou and find out more, where's
the best place for them to getin touch?
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (32:46):
they can go to my website, which is pricemakercouk
.
Speaker 1 (32:51):
Brilliant, and we'll put a link to your LinkedIn
profile on the show notes aswell, so people can connect
there.
Thank you, absolute pleasure,mark.
As always, look after yourselfand we'll catch you soon.
Speaker 2 (33:01):
Thank you, Simon.
Yeah, indeed.
Welcome to the productivity podcast.
Today, I am joined by MarkPeacock, who is the managing
director of Pricemaker Hi Mark.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
Hi, simon, great to be here.
Thanks very much for having meand looking forward to the chat
today.
Speaker 1 (00:14):
No, yeah, I'm fascinated by this one.
We did we kind of met, didn'twe, early this year at
Nottingham Trent Union, when wewere both asked to do a session
and speak, and I was fascinatedby your session Not something
I've ever been directly involvedin from my days in retail in
terms of setting prices, butclearly in our business, in
(00:35):
terms of consultancy andprofessional services, we have
to do that.
But even for those listeningtoday that aren't actually
involved in setting the price, Ithink this is going to be a
fascinating insight into theworld of pricing.
Clearly, we're in a tougheconomic environment where
things are spiraling upwards.
But before we dive into thedetail mark, let's find out a
(00:55):
bit more about you.
So do you want to tell us a bitabout yourself, your kind of
career background, how you gotto be managing director at?
Speaker 2 (01:02):
Pricemaker, of course .
Yeah, thank you, simon, andthanks for having me here today.
So my background is incorporate.
I was in corporate life for 25years working for large brand
organizations like DHL and theAA and worked in all sorts of
roles in marketing, productmanagement, running sales teams
and then running a largedivision of one of the various
(01:25):
companies.
So pricing was played a part inwhat I did, whether it was a
marketing promotion, having tocome up with a new product and
set the price for it, or justunderstanding the impact of
price on your P&L as a P&L owner.
And when I left a few years backnow, six years ago, to start my
(01:46):
own business, I decided tofocus on price because nobody
else seems to really talk aboutit right.
There's loads of businessadvisors and business coaches
and marketing gurus andfinancial advisors and what have
you, and they might touch onthe subject of price, but I
don't think anybody out there isreally looking at it properly
(02:07):
from a strategic level, unlessyou're in the market for advice
from you know, the likes ofMcKinsey or one of the other big
four consultants here.
So I work with the small tomedium sized end of the market
and help companies in that space, improve their pricing because,
as we talked about, you know,pricing is one of the most
(02:30):
powerful levers you can use todrive growth and increase
profits.
Yet all too often, businessowners, business leaders, are
scared to do things with price.
They are fearful of makingchanges, you know, sometimes for
good reasons, so they end upnot doing anything.
And what I like to try and showpeople is that there are lots
(02:52):
of different ways to think aboutprice and there's usually
always a better way to thinkabout applying your pricing than
you're currently doing today.
So hopefully I can share a fewideas today with your listeners
to help them with that thinking.
Speaker 1 (03:08):
Brilliant, looking forward to it.
So, as I touched on in kind ofthe intro, it's topical, isn't
it?
Because we're in a climatewhere costs are going up, the
cost of living is going up,interest rates going up I think
at the time of recording todayit's muted that they're going to
go up again, unfortunately, andat some point they'll come down
.
So it's not forever.
(03:30):
But what does that do in termsof from your world?
How does that make people startto think about value?
Does cheap always win?
Is it more about quality?
How do all those things thenstart to come into play when
we're in a kind of market whereit's all going up?
Speaker 2 (03:51):
It's interesting, isn't it?
And it's a difficult time forboth, you know, consumers,
homeowners, and for businesses.
I mean, if we just roll back acouple of years and just compare
where we are now to pre well,maybe pre COVID, but certainly
the spike in energy costs andthe rising in interest rates,
(04:13):
you know, for the most of thelast decade inflation was at
practically zero and we just gotused as businesses to not
thinking about price too muchand not really doing much with
it.
So I think we got stuck in ourways in terms of, you know,
managing price and, you know,maybe increasing it once a year
(04:35):
for inflation, but not reallygiving it the attention it
deserves.
And then, all of a sudden, ofcourse, over the last year and a
half, especially in the UK,inflation has shot up and
interest rates have shot up, andI think that has forced many
businesses to have to put theirprices up, whether they like it
(04:56):
or not, because they recognizethat their costs have increased
significantly and if they don't,they'll be going backwards in
terms of their net profits.
So that's the right thing to do.
So my focus, generally speaking,is always on helping businesses
improve their pricing, by whichI usually mean increase, but
(05:19):
doing it in a way that helps,helps them sell more, and does
and allows people to do it in away that is a customer friendly
way.
So that's how I look at it fromthe business side of things.
From the customer side ofthings, of course, it's very
different.
You know, we've seen, you know,food prices, you know, for
(05:44):
example, shoot up in the lastyear, and it's very, very
difficult for many consumers andmany household owners out there
.
So I think, how do we, how dowe deal with this, how do we
justify it?
How do we, how do we make itbetter?
It's something that we need topay an awful lot of attention to
, and you know, I do worrysometimes that pricing is left
(06:09):
to last in our business thinking, because it's so fearful and
difficult and scary, and I'dmuch rather think about coming
up with a new product, a newmarketing campaign, a
productivity improvement orwhatever it is to try and drive
profit growth than thinkingabout pricing.
(06:31):
So, yeah, so I think there's,you know there's lots of ways to
tackle this.
Where do you want to start withthat conversation or that
question, simon?
Speaker 1 (06:43):
let me ask you that I think it does.
I suppose that there's anunderlying bit of.
We've been, I suppose in thatperiod you talked around of low
inflation and people maybe doingmore yearly price changes or
more or less reactive stuffdriven that value always wins.
I'm just resonate with you, Imean.
Speaker 2 (07:08):
Well, when we say value here, let's just be clear
what we mean when what I thinkwhat you're referring to is
value ranges of products, likewe see with Tesco value range
and supermarket.
So that's what we're referringto when we say value, in other
words cheap.
So does cheap always win?
Well, it, okay.
(07:30):
I mean, I think the the, thereceived wisdom is that in any
given markets there's only roomfor one or two Players who can
win on the on the value basis.
So I'll be a little for example.
You know the good examples oforganizations that seem to be
(07:53):
doing very well for themselves.
I think they're Revenue for allthese grown by like 19% in the
last year.
So they very much focus on costmanagement, limited ranges, no
frills in terms of promotionsand you know what you're getting
.
So it can work.
But your whole organization hasto be geared around that
(08:16):
Business strategy, because it isa fundamental, it is a core
business strategy.
But make no mistake, there isonly only one or two people can
be the leaders in the valuespace.
You can't be third, fourth orfifth place and still win,
because basically there's alwayssomebody cheaper than you.
(08:37):
So how on earth you know whatis your competitive advantage.
So how, how could somebodyattempt to compete with the an
Audi equivalent If they're notas cheap as Audi?
So it's a guarded yes.
It can work differently andclearly does work.
(08:57):
About your a your wholeorganizational strategy has to
be built to support it and be.
You've got to maintain thatmarket leadership or that first
or second place position At allcosts, and I think the yeah.
Go on, simon.
Speaker 1 (09:16):
It must come down to volume, and doesn't it as well,
exactly that price point you'vegot to be putting the volume
through to make the margin.
Speaker 2 (09:24):
Yeah, exactly, economist of scale, efficiencies
, all of those things I mean.
Costco is a great example of anorganization from a pricing
point of view that's reallyinteresting.
So their background, theirwhole ethos, was that they would
never charge more than 15%gross margin, which is a tiny
amount when you think about itgiven all their overheads.
(09:45):
But they are ruthless in howthey manage their organization,
their teams, their customerinteractions and so on.
But their their secret sourceis the, the fee they charge
their, their members, for annualmembership.
So you have to pay about Ithink it's about 30 quid a year
(10:11):
To be a costco member and Ithink they make as much or as
more money from that price thenas they do from all of their
retail sales.
So there's ways and means is thepoint I'm trying to make there.
That's known as a kind of twostage pricing approach.
Amazon Prime has the same model.
You know you have to pay anannual fee to be an Amazon Prime
(10:33):
member, but then you getadditional benefits on top of
that for next day delivery andfree access to films and what
have you.
So there's a degree ofcreativity, I think, which can
really help.
Well, it's help thosebusinesses, clearly, but I think
I would encourage Listeners tothink a little bit outside the
(10:54):
box and think well, how else canwe monetize what we do in a way
that our customers appreciate?
Just putting up prices is areally hard thing to do, and we
can talk about that in a second.
Thinking slightly morecreatively about how we price
and how we charges, that there'soften some nuggets or some
(11:14):
Great ways that we can find tomake a difference.
Speaker 1 (11:21):
You talk there about kind of prices rising.
Everybody in retail is alwayskeen to tell you that prices
have come down, something tooffer, something to sale.
I'm sure everybody listening isexperienced.
Even if you just take yourlocal supermarket walking around
and thinking all pastors goneup, all the Triples are gone,
all pizzas have gone up andclearly they're not gonna shout
(11:43):
about that and tell us so thatmust take some Difficult
decisions to understand whetherI'm gonna increase that price by
10%, 20%, 50%.
So how do you find creativeways to increase price?
Speaker 2 (11:58):
Yeah, so I'm going to a simple example that we see a
lot in retail, and particularlysupermarkets, is obviously
offering a discount, offer, ahigher price.
So for a tub of butter was onepound, one pound 20, and we want
to charge one pound 30.
And so we say, well, theheadline price is now one pound
(12:21):
50 and there's a 20p reductionand that's how it gets marketed.
Obviously, you need to makesure that you're you know there
are certain regulations aroundthat.
So the the product needs tohave been on sale at the
headline price for at least 30days prior to the promotion.
So you can't just make stuff up.
You've got to follow the ruleson this.
(12:43):
But the point there is this isabout the psychology of how, as
consumers, we like to buy things.
So as consumers and then Iinclude myself in that so even
as a pricing consultant and Iknow a lot of these tricks, you
know, as a shopper, you know westill get.
You know we still allowourselves to be influenced by
(13:05):
these tactics.
So, for example, the idea ofpresenting a high price anchor,
a headline price for a productand then offering a slightly
cheaper price through a discountor a promotion is a very
effective tactic of encouragingpeople to buy the product,
(13:25):
because we then have to thinkabout how do people make buying
decisions and when it comes toprice?
So let's assume somebody wantsthe product, but when it comes
to price, how are they judgingthe value of the price that
you're presenting to them?
If you just show them onenumber one pound 20, one pound
(13:47):
30 or whatever the number is,what do they compare that number
to?
They might compare it, if theirmemory is good, to the last
time they bought the product, Ithink all it's the same or it's
increased.
They might compare it to otherthings on the shelf or in the
store.
They might compare it tosomething else that's comparable
in their in their mind.
So they're looking for areference price to judge the
(14:10):
value of the product you'reoffering.
So you can influence thatdecision by creating your own
reference price, which is theheadline figure, the standard
retail price that it would havebeen if without the discount.
So just tapping into anunderstanding of the psychology
(14:32):
of pricing and behavioraleconomics is a really powerful
mechanism and once you get yourhead around it, it's not that
difficult to understand andapply.
Just on that subject, there'sanother rule of thumb that I
just wanted to offer yourlisteners, which is that, when
it comes to presenting discounts, is it better to present your
(14:57):
discount as a cash saving or asa discount saving?
And there's a basic rule ofthumb that says if the headline
price of your product is over100 100 pounds you should
present the discount as apercentage saving.
If it's under 100, you shouldpresent it as a cash saving.
(15:21):
So let's think of a 50 poundproduct.
We want to discount it by 20%,so the discount saving is 10
pounds.
So in that scenario, you'rebetter off presenting the saving
as the 20% discount, because asa shopper, as a buyer, we see
(15:43):
that the number 20 is biggerthan the number 10.
If you think about a 500 poundproduct where we want to offer a
20% discount, giving a 100pound saving, it's better to
offer or to promote the cashsaving by 100 pounds because 100
is bigger than 20.
(16:03):
So in our minds, the perceivedmagnitude of those digits for
the 100 pound saving is greaterthan the 20% discount number.
So there's this whole world outthere of an understanding of
the psychology of buying.
There's some great books Icould reference for your
(16:26):
listeners on that, and there'sloads of little tricks that you
can pick up on.
So I would say have a look atthat and see if you can find
some ways to change how youpresent your pricing, rather
than just worrying about whatthe what the change in price is
itself.
Speaker 1 (16:47):
Yeah, and there's been some press as well lately
around, kind of people holdingprice but reducing quantity, so
changing pack size, for example.
Speaker 2 (16:59):
Yep shrinkflation as it's called Okay, I didn't know,
I had a name, but there you goYep, yep, so you shrink the size
of the item in the package, butthe price stays the same.
So you know, I don't know, aMars bar was 80 grams and it's a
pound, and it's now 60 gramsand it's a pound.
So you saved 20% of your unitcost.
(17:22):
So your profit margin will haveincreased.
And Am I a fan of this?
Well, I think it's okay.
I think as consumers, we've cometo accept it and we might
crumble a bit the next time wetake a box of tea bags off the
shelf and there's only 80 bagsin the box, whereas last week
(17:43):
there was 100.
But I think we've kind of cometo accept it to a degree.
I think the flip side of thatis you've just got to be careful
that you're not seen asprofiteering at the expense of
the customer, because if theyget a sniff that you are, I
think that's a dangerous road tofollow and you can quickly lose
(18:06):
any loyalty that you might havebuilt up if people think you're
profiteering at their expense,particularly in the current
climate when household budgetsare so hard pressed.
So yeah, shrinkflation, that'sthe name for that trend.
Speaker 1 (18:21):
Simon.
It always feels a sneaky way ofdoing it, if I'm honest,
because unless you're payingparticular attention to the unit
price and so the cost perkilogram, per single, you kind
of don't really notice becausethe packaging stays the same
Exactly.
So I understand the logic, goodto know the name as well, but
(18:44):
it feels a sneaky way of doingthings because it's not, you
know, again keen to tell you ifthere's 20% extra free or the
size has got bigger.
If we've shrunk and kept thesame size, it's done by stealth.
Speaker 2 (18:58):
Although, interestingly, on that point, in
France, the one of the nationalsupermarket chains I think
they're called Car 4, I'm notsure if I pronounced that
correctly, but they've taken astand on this.
So they now put notices up intheir aisles highlighting their
suppliers products where thathas happened.
(19:18):
So they're taking a moralstance on this, I presume, in
the hope that it will engenderloyalty with their customers.
But they're calling outsuppliers who have done this to
make you know, to take, I guess,a moral stance on this and to,
you know, raise a bit ofawareness about the issue.
I'm not sure I can't imagineanyone doing that in the UK, to
(19:42):
be honest, but maybe it's aFrench mentality.
But yeah, I liked it, I thoughtit was an interesting
development.
So we'll see how well that isreceived by their suppliers in
the French supermarkets.
Speaker 1 (19:54):
Yep want to keep an eye on and we talked briefly our
fair around kind of the news ofI'll call it surge price.
But there's a particular pubchain that have announced that
your drinks are going to getmore expensive when it's busier.
Which kind of?
I suppose Uber do it already.
If you think about traintickets, they do it already.
(20:15):
So nothing, nothing new in ourworld, but clearly new in a
hospitality and legend.
Speaker 2 (20:23):
I say hospitality.
Speaker 1 (20:24):
Hotel rooms get busier when it's busier.
So right, I'll tell you aboutit's out there, but there seem
to generate some interestingpress around that concept.
Speaker 2 (20:34):
Yeah, and I think this is a really interesting
development because the pubmarket, which is where the store
is based, so it's one of thenational chains, so they own
slug and lettuce and pubs pubslike that so fairly well known
brand so they've taken thedecision to put up their prices
by up to 20 pp a pint at peaktimes and they explain the
(20:56):
reasons for this.
So in the pubs where this ishappening there's a board up
that gives all of the reasons.
So it's to pay for more staff,is to make sure the cleaning
protocols are followed, and afew other reasons I can't quite
remember now, but you knowthere's four or five reasons as
to why this was necessary.
So I think the initial reaction, certainly from customers on
(21:20):
social media, was prettynegative.
But I actually quite like it asa pricing strategy, because
demand, you know, on peak off,peak pricing has been around for
decades.
Right, we're used to it when webuy a train ticket or a bus
ticket.
It's very common now in hotels,but it's more usually known as
(21:43):
dynamic pricing, where you knowthe price of a room changes
based on the demand for theproduct.
So again, as consumers we'regetting more used to that as a
way of pricing.
So I think, as long as it'scommunicated clearly and
transparently and that customersand shoppers have a choice so
(22:09):
as long as I'm aware that it'sgoing to cost me more when I go
down to the pub on Friday night,I can choose not to go yeah, or
I can choose somewhere else.
So, as long as it's done withfull transparency, I think it's
probably quite a smart move.
I'd love to know what theaverage selling price and the
(22:32):
average profit margin is ontheir pints or their takings
during those peak hours thancompared with off peak.
I mean, the flip side of theargument, of course, is why
don't you reduce your priceswhen times are quiet?
But of course, I think it'sreasonable to say well, look,
(22:54):
those are our standard priceswhich we just hold throughout
the week.
But then at busy times there'sa very small increase.
I mean, and again I think, 20pon a pint.
Is it a lot?
Possibly not.
I think once the initialreaction is absorbed, people
will just take it and say OK,fine, two more pints please.
(23:17):
So the price increase itself islow enough not to be
problematic, which is the othertrick, of course, is don't be
too greedy.
So yeah, I think it's aninteresting development.
And well, either it'll fallflat on its face and they'll
stop the promotion or the priceinitiative, or the whole
industry will adopt it.
(23:37):
So I wouldn't be surprised if,in a year or two's time, most
pubs are offering or followingthat practice of increasing
pricing during busy times.
We shall see.
Speaker 1 (23:50):
Yeah, and, like you say, you try and book a hotel
room when I don't know Coldplay,taylor Swift and Outs beenrels
in Liverpool.
It will, it will work andeveryone will follow suit.
(24:27):
You could then see it splashingover into the coffee industry.
So you know, there's lots ofapplications where you start to
think I think, as a consumer, my, I just hold them to account of
.
If you're charging me more thanI expect not to be queuing for
a long time, I expect it to beclean because otherwise we're
(24:49):
back to the kind of shrinkflation bit you've just put.
Speaker 2 (24:52):
the prices up.
Yeah, yeah, I want fast serviceto the bar.
I expect you know everythingfully stocked bars and clean,
clean environments and etc.
Etc.
You know it's got to workproperly, it's got to work well
If I'm going to accept thosehard prices.
But yeah, I completely agree onthat.
Speaker 1 (25:12):
Interesting.
So we dynamic, dynamic pricingyeah, I think you would call it
surge pricing, but ultimatelyit's all.
It's all roughly the same thing.
Yes, it is.
And it brings me on to that andagain we talked about this, I
think you kind of covered it alittle bit when we're in
Nottingham, trent, uni, ranged,complexity and it.
(25:32):
And again, I was in my localsupermarket early this week and
I think we had the example of 24jams and ironically, I was
walked down the aisle and lookedat it again and thought, oh,
there's.
You know, how do you pick astrawberry jam when there's
eight different brands?
Four different styles are samewith things like peanut butter,
(25:54):
you know, sweet and unsweetenedcrunchy smooth, this brand, that
brand, there's too much.
And for me, as if I suppose itas my consumer brain, I just
look at it and think, well,that's too confusing, I'll buy
middle of the road or the onethat's on offer.
Yeah, yeah, is that complexity?
Speaker 2 (26:12):
a barrier it is.
So there's the paradox of toomuch choice.
There's a famous experiment itwas done in America where they
tested, they put on sale at amarket stall the farmers markets
on day one, a selection of 24different types of jam and they
(26:35):
you know they measured the salesand the you know the takings at
the end of the day.
And then they did the samething again next, the next day.
But they only offered sixvarieties of jam and they sold
more on the second day.
And that's because, you know,when it comes to making a buying
decision, if there's too muchchoice, it's really really hard
(26:56):
to make a decision, and we'veall experienced this.
Right, you could be browsing onAmazon for a you know some
electrical item, and there'shundreds of them and it's oh my
God, I can't even work out whichone's the best one.
So, as you say, you either pickthe cheapest one or kind of one
in the middle of the pack.
But if you're able, if you're.
So this doesn't really apply tosuper markets because they, you
(27:18):
know, have all of theircategory management approaches.
But if you're in control of thenumber of products that you
offer to your market, don'toverdo it, right, I mean the
ideal is three, three pricepoints a high, a medium and a
low priced product, so thatyou're kind of forcing the
(27:40):
consumer to make a faster,quicker decision and if you can
enable that to happen, they'remore likely to buy the product.
So I think in that jamexperiment, the you know, the
takings were 20% higher whenthey reduced the number of
products and items for sale.
And there was another similarexperiment with a jar of cookies
(28:05):
.
But it comes to the sameconclusion.
So you know, if the temptation,of course, is to show all of
your products in the hope thatsomebody will buy something, but
be careful you're not puttingtoo much stress onto the
customer in terms of the buyingdecision you're inviting them to
(28:27):
make, because too much choicecan be counterproductive.
So you try and focus on, youknow, the key, the key products,
the key items in your rangethat are really going to be
valuable and more likely topeople.
I would say.
Speaker 1 (28:44):
You're kind of back to the discounted model or the
Audi in the middle, aren't you Agood, better, best.
So an unknown brand, an unknownbrand and something in the
middle.
Speaker 2 (28:54):
Yeah, exactly, and that's a great technique.
You know good, better, best.
So they've got a good enoughproduct at the lowest price, a
middle product, slightly betterproduct at a medium sized price
and the best product at apremium price.
So we don't expect many peopleto buy the premium product.
But it's really important thatyou show that in your range
(29:15):
Because, again, it acts as aprice anchor and that's how
customers, that's how we all,judge prices.
So if I see a price andexpensive price, a 10 pound
product, a five pound productand a two pound product, 99% of
people won't buy the 10 poundproduct.
And for most people thequestion is well, which of the
(29:35):
other two best meets my needs?
At a price I'm willing to paythe three pound product or the
five pound product.
And most of the time peoplepick the middle option because
it's the least risky one.
I don't want the cheapest,because it's not good enough, I
can't afford the most expensive.
So I'm going to take the middlepriced option and that's a
really, really.
And that idea works pretty muchin any business, whether it's
(30:00):
retail, consulting services,events, whatever.
The kind of good, better, bestapproach to your product
offering and your pricing can bevery effective, so that's well
worth looking at as well.
Speaker 1 (30:13):
Simon, yeah, definitely, yeah, I love that
one, I think for me the most,the three most confusing markets
trying to buy insurance,mortgages and cars because you
can read all the reviews, youcan look at all the price points
and there's always somethingslightly better or something
with, and you can go on foreverand almost never commit.
Speaker 2 (30:35):
Exactly it's.
Yeah, I mean, they're hugelycomplex markets with thousands
of different options, so it isvery difficult, yeah, and you
end up making shortcuts.
As a customer, when you'remaking a buying decision, you
either go with a brand thatsomebody's recommended to you an
insurance brand or you go witha car choice because you sat in
(30:56):
your mate's car the other weekand it was nice, or whatever.
So we tend to end up usingshortcuts mental shortcuts,
which are known as heuristics tocome to a decision which aren't
necessary.
And that decision isn'tnecessarily based on completely
rational logic.
It's more often based on theemotional biases that we all
(31:20):
have, which lead us to adecision that you might not
otherwise have expected if youwere just looking at it
rationally.
But that's a whole other topic.
Speaker 1 (31:30):
Absolutely so.
Before we close, do you want totell us about the book that
you've written?
Speaker 2 (31:36):
Oh, yes, I will Thank you.
So I published my book earlierthis year called Pricing for
Success.
It's got the seven step planfor winning more customers at
better prices, so it's very easyto read.
There's no complicated maths orcharts in there.
It's very much designed withthe small to medium sized
(31:56):
business owner in mind.
There's lots of examples andlots of templates and sets of
questions and ideas that you canthen think about using in your
business.
So the aim is that you get someideas or some hints or tips
from it that can help you withyour business.
Available on Amazon in bothpaperback and Kindle versions.
(32:21):
So, yeah, it's called Pricingfor Success by Mark Peacock,
that's me Good.
Speaker 1 (32:26):
Thank you very much, mark's been a fantastic chat.
It reminds me of some of thethings we went through when you
presented it at Nottingham Union.
It was a fascinating kind ofhour, hour and a half listening
to you, so really appreciateyour time coming on.
If people want to reach out toyou and find out more, where's
the best place for them to getin touch?
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (32:46):
they can go to my website, which is pricemakercouk
.
Speaker 1 (32:51):
Brilliant, and we'll put a link to your LinkedIn
profile on the show notes aswell, so people can connect
there.
Thank you, absolute pleasure,mark.
As always, look after yourselfand we'll catch you soon.
Speaker 2 (33:01):
Thank you, Simon.
Yeah, indeed.
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