August 3, 2025 • 23 mins
Matthew Haywood, Owner of WFM Consulting, a seasoned retail expert with over 25 years of experience, shares his framework for effective workforce management through seven essential pillars. He dispels common myths about auto-scheduling while providing practical insights into achieving the elusive "right people, right place, right time" goal that transforms both customer and colleague experiences.
• Understanding the five key challenges: mindset, capability, confidence, simplicity, and adoption
• Exploring the seven pillars framework: operating hours, forecasting, labour deployment, contracted hours, availability, work assignments, and skill sets
• Debunking the myth that auto-scheduling is a "magic button" solution – expect to achieve 80-85% automation at best
• Recognising that small increases in flexibility across staff can make significant scheduling improvements
• Challenging the assumption that part-time workers provide more scheduling flexibility than full-time staff
• Publishing schedules at least three weeks in advance to improve colleague work-life balance
• Viewing effective workforce management as an opportunity to reinvest hours strategically rather than simply cutting costs
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to the Productivity Podcast.
I'm delighted today to bejoined by Matthew Haywood, who
is a seasoned retailer andbusiness owner in the workforce
management consulting space.
Hi, matthew, how are you doing?
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Yeah, very well thanks.
I'm really looking forward totoday's session.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
Good, good.
So before we dive into rightpeople, right place, right time,
which is a phrase I'm sure lotsof people listening have heard
before, tell us a bit aboutyourself kind of career
background, how you got tohaving your own business.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Yeah, sure.
So I spent the last sort of 25plus years in the retail,
hospitality and travel sectors,started life out as an
accountant, spent many yearslooking at balance sheets,
profit and loss accounts, andthen I moved into sort of
systems implementations andabout 15 years ago I stepped out
(00:57):
of and set up my own businessand spent a lot of time on
various projects building CostaCoffees, putting Greg's Bakers
in, running retail departments,looking after ferries.
So I've done a whole wide rangeof things and for the last sort
of seven or eight years I'vebeen in the sort of HCM
workforce management space,implementing systems and
(01:18):
configuring them and thenrunning them.
And then I took the opportunityin February this year to set up
on my own them.
And then I took the opportunityin february this year to set up
on my own, and for me it's myaim is to make life simple for
companies, colleagues andcustomers by deploying labor
that meets demand in the mostefficient way.
So I'm kind of in that spacenow just really looking to help
(01:41):
other people from the experiencethat I've managed to get over
the last 25 plus years.
Speaker 1 (01:46):
Brilliant, so you can do it all, from the the
accounts, through to the theplanning.
Speaker 2 (01:52):
Supposedly yeah, yeah .
Speaker 1 (01:54):
Good stuff.
So I mentioned the phrasebefore at the start right people
, right place, by right timeit's.
It's been coined, you know,numerous times times.
I've worked in workforcemanagement.
Now I've rolled out a systemwhen I was at Focus 25 years ago
probably, and we use that as abit of a strapline.
So it's lived for what seemslike an eternity.
(02:17):
I'm not sure that many peoplehave done it, and I know people
have tagged on right skills atthe end of the time.
So it's kind of nice words, butit's not really that simple, is
it.
Speaker 2 (02:30):
No, it is.
It's not, and I think it'sprobably more relevant now than
it's ever been if we look at thesort of the pressures the
businesses are under.
You cannot afford to havepeople allocated to schedules
when they're not required.
You just can't afford thatanymore, and I think it's
something that lots of companiesaspire to and they probably
(02:53):
like to think they've got rightpeople, right place, right time.
But you know, as we're going totalk through today, there's a
lot that goes into making surethat you can deliver this
effectively.
So there aren't that manycompanies out there who are
doing it probably the best theypossibly can, and I think,
hopefully today, the topics thatwe're going to discuss, it
(03:15):
might just point a few morecompanies in the right direction
and give them that kind ofnudge that they need.
Speaker 1 (03:21):
Yeah.
So without doing the workforcemanagement vendors any
disrespect, and I'll talkgenerically there is this
perception that you can load aload of data into your workforce
management solution, sopeople's working hours, their
availability, skills, epos, data, delivery data, whatever it is,
budgets Press a button,schedule drops out, everybody
(03:46):
works that schedule.
No fuss fuss, we go again nextweek.
I'm yet to ever see that happenno, I think you're 100% right
there.
Speaker 2 (03:54):
The you go through the sales process with various
sort of vendors and they alltalk about sort of hitting the
magic button.
You know you can hit the button, walk away, hey presto,
schedule appears.
There's a lot of work in thebackground to get to that
position and I'm still notconvinced that you can do that
(04:16):
100%.
You know, I think this autoscheduling, whatever you want to
call it there are benefits toit, some big benefits, and it
will get you a long way towardsyour goal.
But there's always going to besome form of manual intervention
, required a little bit of topand tailing.
But if you, if you get it right, it can certainly do the heavy
(04:37):
lifting for you yeah, I think ifyou can get 80, 85 percent the
way, you've done a good job.
Speaker 1 (04:42):
So I know you've got kind of seven pillars that that
we'll talk around um.
But before we get to that let'shave a look at some of the kind
of key challenges in in yourmind that you've seen businesses
face yeah, sure.
Speaker 2 (04:57):
So I think that there are five things that I've
identified as key challenges.
Uh, first thing is mindset.
So I think everyone wantschange, but one of the most
difficult things is changingthat mindset of your colleagues
away from the past and reallyclearly trying to demonstrate to
them the benefits of the changeto them at a personal level,
(05:20):
because they need to buy into it, but also the wider business
benefits, because they need tobuy into it, but also the wider
business benefits.
And then, I think, once you'vekind of got through that stage,
you then start looking atcapability.
So we're talking about thesebig transformational projects
and they can be really dauntingto your colleagues.
So it's really important thatwe invest time as leaders in
coaching and offer guidance toyour teams so they can get up to
(05:43):
speed to start delivering someof these benefits.
And I think, from my experienceover the last couple years, one
of the real challenges isconfidence.
So you can often put in thesevery highly configurable systems
and you don't want to touchthem, you don't want to play
around with them and you don'twant to mess up the
(06:04):
configuration.
So just having that confidenceto sort of lift the lid on the
system and actually get yourhands a little bit dirty under
the bonnet so you can startmaking some, some of these
changes.
So that's that's somethingyou're not going to get day one.
But the more you sort ofinvolve yourself in the with the
system and the configurationobviously you won't be doing
this in the live system, it'llbe in your test environment, so
(06:26):
that's obviously a big.
Something I'm really passionateabout is trying to keep things
as simple as possible, not justfor the users, but also simple
configuration and simple tomanage, because it's very easy
to overcomplicate these systems.
So I think simplicity is kindof key, because you've not only
(06:50):
are you figuring it now, butyou've got that ongoing
maintenance piece over the next,you know, two, three, four,
five years, whatever it's goingto be.
So simplicity is key.
And then I think the realchallenge and I'm sure you've
come across this in all theprojects that you've done is the
actual adoption piece.
So, yeah, the configuration andimplementation can be a little
(07:11):
bit tricky, but the realchallenge is, once it's there,
is to get people to use it andus as sort of configurers or
sort of project managers.
There's only so much that wecan actually do.
It's really important thatyou've got this whole team
approach and it'll be with yourops guys, the people team, the
finance team Everyone's got toplay a part to sort of
(07:33):
delivering that piece ofcompliance.
Speaker 1 (07:35):
So for me they are sort of the main five challenges
that I've come across yep, yeah, I agree with all those, and I
think that the adoption piece Ialways find interesting, because
typically a big payroll,workforce management, time and
attendance task, whatevercomponent you're using
implementation as a you projectteam, a project manager, some
(07:55):
senior sponsorship, hopefully,because if it doesn't, it's
probably not going to goanywhere that all is well and
good until you've rolled it outand then you're in business as
usual and maybe there's one ortwo experts left in head office.
But it's then really down tothe field teams and senior
leadership to drive thatcontinual usage, monitor the
(08:18):
performance, the stats, thestatistics, whatever you're
using, and at times I feelthat's quite a big miss for
organizations.
Speaker 2 (08:27):
Oh yeah, I think you get sort of almost like
implementation fatigue, don'tyou?
You roll a project out andeveryone sort of sits back,
takes a gasp event and says,right, it's in now.
But that's only when thejourney starts, in my view, and
I totally agree with you.
You know it's that seniorleadership buy-in.
Um, you know it's not anoptional thing, it's something
(08:48):
that you know.
We spent all this money allthis time configuring.
We've got to use it and it'susing making sure we use the
data that comes out of it andinsights to the best we can.
And it's not like a stick tobeat people with.
It's there to sort of say tothem look, this is the real
benefits having in your tradingunit or your wider business.
(09:08):
So, yeah, that adoption pieceis definitely the biggest
challenge.
Speaker 1 (09:13):
Yeah, absolutely.
You could have spent a lot ofmoney to implement a technical
solution when actually the techis the enabler for the change,
isn't it?
Yeah, it again amazes me whenWFM becomes an IT tech project
when actually it's a hearts andminds of a hr operational
(09:34):
project yeah, I agree with thattype totally so your seven
pillars.
So that that's kind of howyou've thought about and chunked
up the key requirements for forsuccess.
So do you want to take usthrough those one by one?
Speaker 2 (09:48):
yeah, sure, so you know, I've spent a lot of time
looking at various solutions outthere and, like I said, you
asked the question can youautomatically schedule?
Yeah, and, to be honest, a lotof these systems.
They're very similar and Ibelieve that these seven steps
(10:08):
apply to all systems that youare going to configure.
So I'll just go through themone by one.
So, first of all, you'reoperating out.
So your system is not a crystalball.
It needs to understand when youare going to configure.
So I'll just go through themone by one.
So, first of all, you'reoperating now.
So your system's not a crystalball.
It needs to understand when youare trading and you need to
make sure that you are keepingthe system updated with any
changes.
So you know we talk aboutseasonal changes or changes at
short notice.
So that, for me, is a crucialfirst step.
(10:30):
And then we come on to accurateforecasting.
So you know this will driveyour labor demand, so you must
take into account a whole rangeof things.
So have I got special days setup correctly in the system?
Is the data that I'm basing myforecast on readily available?
Can I put it into the system ina timely fashion?
(10:52):
Is it sort of churning out thatforecast.
And again, a lot of thesesystems, forecasting platforms,
aren't necessarily overlycomplicated, which isn't a bad
thing.
So you know, we might justlooking at a sort of basic trend
of historic averages will getyou to a nice accurate level.
And then, once the system hascreated that labor demand or
(11:13):
given you a number, you thenneed to sort of work out well,
how am I going to deploy thatlabor over my trading day?
So labor deployment is my thirdpillar.
So it's saying how am I goingto spread it?
Am I going to spread it overdemand?
Am I going to allocate laborinto certain time blocks?
So have I got stock tape?
I know it's between these hours.
(11:34):
Well, let's not spread it overthe moment, let's actually put
it against that time slot.
So trying to understand that alot of these things will evolve
over time, it's not you don'tnecessarily can nail this first
immediately.
It's sort of, as you work withthe units and the operators, a
lot of this stuff will be teasedout and it's about top and tail
tailing this stuff and gettingit as accurate as you possibly
(11:56):
can.
And then the fourth pillar I'vegot contracted hours and you
can have issues here whetheryou're under or over contracted,
and it's really important totry and sort of strike the right
balance and make sure you'replanning ahead, looking at your
peaks and troughs, just toensure that you've got that
(12:20):
enough contracted hours to meetdemand.
And then one of my old favoritesis availability.
So do we have people availablewhen we need them?
A lot of businesses will saythat they've got the contracted
hours.
Yeah, I've got contracts at ourspace, but actually you've got
(12:40):
a really inflexible workforceand yeah, everyone's happy to
work between eight and four,monday to Thursday, but it's
always a struggle to fill thatFriday, saturday, sunday
schedule when you probably needpeople the most.
So having that availability andflexibility in the system is
really important.
And then we're looking at workassignments.
(13:03):
So the more flexibility you canbuild into your schedule, the
better.
So we're talking about workassignments, maybe across
multiple departments in the samelocation.
So it might be a fast foodoutlet, a bakery operation, a
supermarket operation.
You might be able to split thatperson across the trading data
(13:25):
to make you as efficient aspossible and it might be across
multiple geographical locations.
So have I got a pool of peoplethat have got the ability to
work across a multitude of sites, and sometimes that can be.
You know, if you're a highstreet retailer and you've got
multiple operations in the sametown, that might work really
well.
If you're a motorway serviceoperator, where your locations
(13:45):
could be miles apart, that mightnot work really well.
If you're a motorway serviceoperator where your your sort of
locations could be miles apart,that might not work so well.
And then then the last umpillar, that I've got skill sets
.
So it's not just about havingwhat I call bums on seas.
You know, have we got therequired skill sets to operate?
Now some of these might bedriven by brand standards.
So if I'm running a fast foodoutlet, the brand might dictate
(14:08):
I need a certain skill set atcertain stations, or there might
be statutory requirementsaround various legislation.
So the greater the pool youhave in terms of skill sets, the
more options you're going tohave.
So for me they are the seventhings.
Speaker 1 (14:26):
It doesn't matter which system you're looking to
implement, you've got to getthese right yeah, I just want to
focus on one of those, which isavailability, because again
there's this myth, I think, thatstarts to spread if you're not
careful around fully flexiblepeople being available every
working hour of every day.
And from my experience I'veseen if lots of people can give
(14:50):
a little flexibility, maybe evenan hour each side of what they
currently do, that can have areally, really big impact yeah,
no, I agree on when you runthese forecasts.
Speaker 2 (15:01):
I mean, most of these systems now are forecasting
demand at 15-minute incrementand just by someone not
everyone's starting at 7 o'clock, someone's starting at 6.45 or
7.15.
It just starts making thatlittle bit of difference.
So I think availability, as Isaid, is one of those sort of
(15:22):
key pillars that we've got toget right and when you'll go
through that recruitment process, it's not just about getting oh
yeah, I've got someone on 35,check that they are available to
work when you need them to work.
Speaker 1 (15:36):
And I think there's also this myth that part-time
people are more flexible.
Again, students, potentially,but they might be back at uni
and this, that and the other, sothey may have availability
between different locations, butmost people in my experience
are part-time for a reason.
So child care commitments, umcare commitments, lifestyle
(15:57):
commitments full-time people,again in my experience, have
tended to be more flexiblebecause they've got to do 40
hours, so you've got to fit themin somewhere and they need
their two days off yeah, I agreewith that.
Speaker 2 (16:09):
I mean the part-time people, um, they're generally
part-time because they've gotrestrictions either end of the
day and they need to fit, youknow, make it work for their
sort of work-life balance.
Speaker 1 (16:19):
So, yeah, I definitely agree with that so
that the world's, I think, in agood place with the technology,
like you say there's.
There's multiple choice,everybody does the same thing
slightly differently and it alllooks you know, pink, blue,
green, red, whichever, whicheverone you decide to choose, but
ultimately, where they're allprocessing data at half an hour,
(16:40):
15 minute level, matching it toall the information we put in
about sales, shapes,availability, skills, and they
give us this best start.
I'd probably call it so, withall the information we've given
it, it's the best start for themanager to make the fine tuning.
Do you still see lots ofschedules?
(17:00):
This best start 85%, 95% thatwe've got to that are pretty
poor because the data's notgreat.
Speaker 2 (17:09):
Yes, I do.
I think the data that's goingto drive that schedule has got
to be timely, and I think with alot of the sort of poor quality
schedules that I'm seeing, it'sbecause we're not scheduling
(17:32):
far enough in advance or, likeyou say, the the data's being
corrupted or especially if sortof looking at special days in
the system, that maintenancepiece, so yeah, that's that's
where I tend to see sort of thepoorer quality schedule and it's
where people haven't investedin those seven pillars as well,
(17:55):
and so there's lots of.
You know, we want to be givingpeople that work-life balance,
so my view you should beshedding at least three weeks in
advance and what that poorschedules generally tend to be,
those where the data's not greatand people are meddling with it
right up to the last minute.
So I don't know what I'mworking tomorrow, when I should
know what I'm working two orthree weeks at a time yeah, yeah
(18:17):
, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (18:18):
There's got to be a fairness for colleagues and all
this because otherwise peoplewill restrict their availability
and go back to more of a fixedworking pattern, which then
limits the benefit you can getfrom the system.
So, talking of benefits, thendo you want to run us through
kind of some of the things thatyou see when people start to get
this right?
Speaker 2 (18:38):
yeah.
So you know, you know we don'tinvest all this time and money
for nothing.
So there are some real benefitsto be had by getting that sort
of right people, right place,right time.
And for me I mean they're quiteobvious on them but they're
transforming that customerexperience.
So we want to give thecustomers the best experience.
We can great service, shortqueues, great product
(18:59):
availability and we can Greatservice, short queues, great
product availability and we cango a long way to satisfy that by
making sure that we've gotlabor sort of meeting that
demand.
So when customers come in, youknow I'm a great believer in
sort of schedule efficiency aswell and I used to work on
something really basic that if Iwas 85% efficient on my
(19:19):
schedule, I've probably got a15% chance of a queue.
And if I'm 50% compliant on myschedule, then I've probably got
a 50% chance of a queue.
So that for me, making surethat you've got your staff in
when your customers need them,it's not only just about the
staff but it's also enhancingyour colleague experience.
So giving colleagues a fairschedule that's data driven.
(19:42):
So something we just touchedupon, built on accurate forecast
and forecasting and, mostimportantly, at least three
weeks in advance, we ensure theycan achieve that work life
balance.
So everyone's got busy lives.
So anything that we can bedoing to make our colleagues
lives better, the better for usit's going to be.
And then I think, colleaguesfront of house we want people
(20:05):
front of house, not back ofhouse.
So anything we can be doing forfreeing the managers up from
those onerous tasks around someof the HR processes, some of the
workforce management processes,definitely help us.
It will help drive the brandstandards and also drive sales.
And then the real benefit fromgetting an accurate forecast the
(20:27):
more accurate we forecast, thebetter control we're going to
have over our labor.
We can spread it moreefficiently, more effectively
and ultimately control thatlabor cost.
And I think a lot of people umassume that when you're looking
at schedules, workforcemanagement, especially
efficiency, it's all aboutreducing schedules, taking hours
(20:47):
out.
I don't think that's right.
Look where hours need to comeout.
Yeah great, we'll take them out, but it's it's for me it's
reinvesting the hours in themost appropriate times.
If we get that right so takingout labor off those shoulder
periods and putting into thosepeaks, not only will you be more
efficient but you'll startdriving sales.
And in my view, if you'redriving sales and making
(21:10):
yourself more efficient, the wayyour labor model works is that
you will actually get more hoursgenerated as we go forward.
So there's some real keybenefits there from getting them
out right people, right place,right time, the best you
possibly can yeah, no, totallyagree, you can save your way out
of so much.
Speaker 1 (21:28):
But I think in the current climate, with the cost
challenge, you've got to driveatv, you know, maximize your
conversion in terms of thefootfall, because you can only
save.
There's just some stuff you'vegot to do and there comes a
point where you're at the bottomline and you can't remove any
more labor.
Yeah, so fascinatingconversation.
I mean we could go on and talkabout ai and all those other
(21:51):
bits, but clearly that theworld's evolving so quickly that
that stuff changes daily andagain all the solutions are
starting to use co-pilots, aiand and all sorts of other
wonderful things in their, intheir software.
If people want to find out moreabout you, want to chat this
through further, want you tocome and do some work on their
(22:12):
wfm system or project, where'sthe best place for them to find
you?
Speaker 2 (22:16):
the best way is to look for matthew hayward on
linkedin or wfm consultingcoukand you can drop me an email at
matthew at wf consultingcouk andI'll be happy to have a chat
perfect, we'll put.
Speaker 1 (22:32):
We'll put the link to your linkedin profile in the
notes so we can make it nice andeasy for people to find.
You Really enjoyed theconversation, something that's
brought back some memories forme and is close to my heart as
well for people to getting itright.
So appreciate your time and wewill catch up soon.
Speaker 2 (22:48):
Yeah, thank you.
Welcome to the Productivity Podcast.
I'm delighted today to bejoined by Matthew Haywood, who
is a seasoned retailer andbusiness owner in the workforce
management consulting space.
Hi, matthew, how are you doing?
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Yeah, very well thanks.
I'm really looking forward totoday's session.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
Good, good.
So before we dive into rightpeople, right place, right time,
which is a phrase I'm sure lotsof people listening have heard
before, tell us a bit aboutyourself kind of career
background, how you got tohaving your own business.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Yeah, sure.
So I spent the last sort of 25plus years in the retail,
hospitality and travel sectors,started life out as an
accountant, spent many yearslooking at balance sheets,
profit and loss accounts, andthen I moved into sort of
systems implementations andabout 15 years ago I stepped out
(00:57):
of and set up my own businessand spent a lot of time on
various projects building CostaCoffees, putting Greg's Bakers
in, running retail departments,looking after ferries.
So I've done a whole wide rangeof things and for the last sort
of seven or eight years I'vebeen in the sort of HCM
workforce management space,implementing systems and
(01:18):
configuring them and thenrunning them.
And then I took the opportunityin February this year to set up
on my own them.
And then I took the opportunityin february this year to set up
on my own, and for me it's myaim is to make life simple for
companies, colleagues andcustomers by deploying labor
that meets demand in the mostefficient way.
So I'm kind of in that spacenow just really looking to help
(01:41):
other people from the experiencethat I've managed to get over
the last 25 plus years.
Speaker 1 (01:46):
Brilliant, so you can do it all, from the the
accounts, through to the theplanning.
Speaker 2 (01:52):
Supposedly yeah, yeah .
Speaker 1 (01:54):
Good stuff.
So I mentioned the phrasebefore at the start right people
, right place, by right timeit's.
It's been coined, you know,numerous times times.
I've worked in workforcemanagement.
Now I've rolled out a systemwhen I was at Focus 25 years ago
probably, and we use that as abit of a strapline.
So it's lived for what seemslike an eternity.
(02:17):
I'm not sure that many peoplehave done it, and I know people
have tagged on right skills atthe end of the time.
So it's kind of nice words, butit's not really that simple, is
it.
Speaker 2 (02:30):
No, it is.
It's not, and I think it'sprobably more relevant now than
it's ever been if we look at thesort of the pressures the
businesses are under.
You cannot afford to havepeople allocated to schedules
when they're not required.
You just can't afford thatanymore, and I think it's
something that lots of companiesaspire to and they probably
(02:53):
like to think they've got rightpeople, right place, right time.
But you know, as we're going totalk through today, there's a
lot that goes into making surethat you can deliver this
effectively.
So there aren't that manycompanies out there who are
doing it probably the best theypossibly can, and I think,
hopefully today, the topics thatwe're going to discuss, it
(03:15):
might just point a few morecompanies in the right direction
and give them that kind ofnudge that they need.
Speaker 1 (03:21):
Yeah.
So without doing the workforcemanagement vendors any
disrespect, and I'll talkgenerically there is this
perception that you can load aload of data into your workforce
management solution, sopeople's working hours, their
availability, skills, epos, data, delivery data, whatever it is,
budgets Press a button,schedule drops out, everybody
(03:46):
works that schedule.
No fuss fuss, we go again nextweek.
I'm yet to ever see that happenno, I think you're 100% right
there.
Speaker 2 (03:54):
The you go through the sales process with various
sort of vendors and they alltalk about sort of hitting the
magic button.
You know you can hit the button, walk away, hey presto,
schedule appears.
There's a lot of work in thebackground to get to that
position and I'm still notconvinced that you can do that
(04:16):
100%.
You know, I think this autoscheduling, whatever you want to
call it there are benefits toit, some big benefits, and it
will get you a long way towardsyour goal.
But there's always going to besome form of manual intervention
, required a little bit of topand tailing.
But if you, if you get it right, it can certainly do the heavy
(04:37):
lifting for you yeah, I think ifyou can get 80, 85 percent the
way, you've done a good job.
Speaker 1 (04:42):
So I know you've got kind of seven pillars that that
we'll talk around um.
But before we get to that let'shave a look at some of the kind
of key challenges in in yourmind that you've seen businesses
face yeah, sure.
Speaker 2 (04:57):
So I think that there are five things that I've
identified as key challenges.
Uh, first thing is mindset.
So I think everyone wantschange, but one of the most
difficult things is changingthat mindset of your colleagues
away from the past and reallyclearly trying to demonstrate to
them the benefits of the changeto them at a personal level,
(05:20):
because they need to buy into it, but also the wider business
benefits, because they need tobuy into it, but also the wider
business benefits.
And then, I think, once you'vekind of got through that stage,
you then start looking atcapability.
So we're talking about thesebig transformational projects
and they can be really dauntingto your colleagues.
So it's really important thatwe invest time as leaders in
coaching and offer guidance toyour teams so they can get up to
(05:43):
speed to start delivering someof these benefits.
And I think, from my experienceover the last couple years, one
of the real challenges isconfidence.
So you can often put in thesevery highly configurable systems
and you don't want to touchthem, you don't want to play
around with them and you don'twant to mess up the
(06:04):
configuration.
So just having that confidenceto sort of lift the lid on the
system and actually get yourhands a little bit dirty under
the bonnet so you can startmaking some, some of these
changes.
So that's that's somethingyou're not going to get day one.
But the more you sort ofinvolve yourself in the with the
system and the configurationobviously you won't be doing
this in the live system, it'llbe in your test environment, so
(06:26):
that's obviously a big.
Something I'm really passionateabout is trying to keep things
as simple as possible, not justfor the users, but also simple
configuration and simple tomanage, because it's very easy
to overcomplicate these systems.
So I think simplicity is kindof key, because you've not only
(06:50):
are you figuring it now, butyou've got that ongoing
maintenance piece over the next,you know, two, three, four,
five years, whatever it's goingto be.
So simplicity is key.
And then I think the realchallenge and I'm sure you've
come across this in all theprojects that you've done is the
actual adoption piece.
So, yeah, the configuration andimplementation can be a little
(07:11):
bit tricky, but the realchallenge is, once it's there,
is to get people to use it andus as sort of configurers or
sort of project managers.
There's only so much that wecan actually do.
It's really important thatyou've got this whole team
approach and it'll be with yourops guys, the people team, the
finance team Everyone's got toplay a part to sort of
(07:33):
delivering that piece ofcompliance.
Speaker 1 (07:35):
So for me they are sort of the main five challenges
that I've come across yep, yeah, I agree with all those, and I
think that the adoption piece Ialways find interesting, because
typically a big payroll,workforce management, time and
attendance task, whatevercomponent you're using
implementation as a you projectteam, a project manager, some
(07:55):
senior sponsorship, hopefully,because if it doesn't, it's
probably not going to goanywhere that all is well and
good until you've rolled it outand then you're in business as
usual and maybe there's one ortwo experts left in head office.
But it's then really down tothe field teams and senior
leadership to drive thatcontinual usage, monitor the
(08:18):
performance, the stats, thestatistics, whatever you're
using, and at times I feelthat's quite a big miss for
organizations.
Speaker 2 (08:27):
Oh yeah, I think you get sort of almost like
implementation fatigue, don'tyou?
You roll a project out andeveryone sort of sits back,
takes a gasp event and says,right, it's in now.
But that's only when thejourney starts, in my view, and
I totally agree with you.
You know it's that seniorleadership buy-in.
Um, you know it's not anoptional thing, it's something
(08:48):
that you know.
We spent all this money allthis time configuring.
We've got to use it and it'susing making sure we use the
data that comes out of it andinsights to the best we can.
And it's not like a stick tobeat people with.
It's there to sort of say tothem look, this is the real
benefits having in your tradingunit or your wider business.
(09:08):
So, yeah, that adoption pieceis definitely the biggest
challenge.
Speaker 1 (09:13):
Yeah, absolutely.
You could have spent a lot ofmoney to implement a technical
solution when actually the techis the enabler for the change,
isn't it?
Yeah, it again amazes me whenWFM becomes an IT tech project
when actually it's a hearts andminds of a hr operational
(09:34):
project yeah, I agree with thattype totally so your seven
pillars.
So that that's kind of howyou've thought about and chunked
up the key requirements for forsuccess.
So do you want to take usthrough those one by one?
Speaker 2 (09:48):
yeah, sure, so you know, I've spent a lot of time
looking at various solutions outthere and, like I said, you
asked the question can youautomatically schedule?
Yeah, and, to be honest, a lotof these systems.
They're very similar and Ibelieve that these seven steps
(10:08):
apply to all systems that youare going to configure.
So I'll just go through themone by one.
So, first of all, you'reoperating out.
So your system is not a crystalball.
It needs to understand when youare going to configure.
So I'll just go through themone by one.
So, first of all, you'reoperating now.
So your system's not a crystalball.
It needs to understand when youare trading and you need to
make sure that you are keepingthe system updated with any
changes.
So you know we talk aboutseasonal changes or changes at
short notice.
So that, for me, is a crucialfirst step.
(10:30):
And then we come on to accurateforecasting.
So you know this will driveyour labor demand, so you must
take into account a whole rangeof things.
So have I got special days setup correctly in the system?
Is the data that I'm basing myforecast on readily available?
Can I put it into the system ina timely fashion?
(10:52):
Is it sort of churning out thatforecast.
And again, a lot of thesesystems, forecasting platforms,
aren't necessarily overlycomplicated, which isn't a bad
thing.
So you know, we might justlooking at a sort of basic trend
of historic averages will getyou to a nice accurate level.
And then, once the system hascreated that labor demand or
(11:13):
given you a number, you thenneed to sort of work out well,
how am I going to deploy thatlabor over my trading day?
So labor deployment is my thirdpillar.
So it's saying how am I goingto spread it?
Am I going to spread it overdemand?
Am I going to allocate laborinto certain time blocks?
So have I got stock tape?
I know it's between these hours.
(11:34):
Well, let's not spread it overthe moment, let's actually put
it against that time slot.
So trying to understand that alot of these things will evolve
over time, it's not you don'tnecessarily can nail this first
immediately.
It's sort of, as you work withthe units and the operators, a
lot of this stuff will be teasedout and it's about top and tail
tailing this stuff and gettingit as accurate as you possibly
(11:56):
can.
And then the fourth pillar I'vegot contracted hours and you
can have issues here whetheryou're under or over contracted,
and it's really important totry and sort of strike the right
balance and make sure you'replanning ahead, looking at your
peaks and troughs, just toensure that you've got that
(12:20):
enough contracted hours to meetdemand.
And then one of my old favoritesis availability.
So do we have people availablewhen we need them?
A lot of businesses will saythat they've got the contracted
hours.
Yeah, I've got contracts at ourspace, but actually you've got
(12:40):
a really inflexible workforceand yeah, everyone's happy to
work between eight and four,monday to Thursday, but it's
always a struggle to fill thatFriday, saturday, sunday
schedule when you probably needpeople the most.
So having that availability andflexibility in the system is
really important.
And then we're looking at workassignments.
(13:03):
So the more flexibility you canbuild into your schedule, the
better.
So we're talking about workassignments, maybe across
multiple departments in the samelocation.
So it might be a fast foodoutlet, a bakery operation, a
supermarket operation.
You might be able to split thatperson across the trading data
(13:25):
to make you as efficient aspossible and it might be across
multiple geographical locations.
So have I got a pool of peoplethat have got the ability to
work across a multitude of sites, and sometimes that can be.
You know, if you're a highstreet retailer and you've got
multiple operations in the sametown, that might work really
well.
If you're a motorway serviceoperator, where your locations
(13:45):
could be miles apart, that mightnot work really well.
If you're a motorway serviceoperator where your your sort of
locations could be miles apart,that might not work so well.
And then then the last umpillar, that I've got skill sets
.
So it's not just about havingwhat I call bums on seas.
You know, have we got therequired skill sets to operate?
Now some of these might bedriven by brand standards.
So if I'm running a fast foodoutlet, the brand might dictate
(14:08):
I need a certain skill set atcertain stations, or there might
be statutory requirementsaround various legislation.
So the greater the pool youhave in terms of skill sets, the
more options you're going tohave.
So for me they are the seventhings.
Speaker 1 (14:26):
It doesn't matter which system you're looking to
implement, you've got to getthese right yeah, I just want to
focus on one of those, which isavailability, because again
there's this myth, I think, thatstarts to spread if you're not
careful around fully flexiblepeople being available every
working hour of every day.
And from my experience I'veseen if lots of people can give
(14:50):
a little flexibility, maybe evenan hour each side of what they
currently do, that can have areally, really big impact yeah,
no, I agree on when you runthese forecasts.
Speaker 2 (15:01):
I mean, most of these systems now are forecasting
demand at 15-minute incrementand just by someone not
everyone's starting at 7 o'clock, someone's starting at 6.45 or
7.15.
It just starts making thatlittle bit of difference.
So I think availability, as Isaid, is one of those sort of
(15:22):
key pillars that we've got toget right and when you'll go
through that recruitment process, it's not just about getting oh
yeah, I've got someone on 35,check that they are available to
work when you need them to work.
Speaker 1 (15:36):
And I think there's also this myth that part-time
people are more flexible.
Again, students, potentially,but they might be back at uni
and this, that and the other, sothey may have availability
between different locations, butmost people in my experience
are part-time for a reason.
So child care commitments, umcare commitments, lifestyle
(15:57):
commitments full-time people,again in my experience, have
tended to be more flexiblebecause they've got to do 40
hours, so you've got to fit themin somewhere and they need
their two days off yeah, I agreewith that.
Speaker 2 (16:09):
I mean the part-time people, um, they're generally
part-time because they've gotrestrictions either end of the
day and they need to fit, youknow, make it work for their
sort of work-life balance.
Speaker 1 (16:19):
So, yeah, I definitely agree with that so
that the world's, I think, in agood place with the technology,
like you say there's.
There's multiple choice,everybody does the same thing
slightly differently and it alllooks you know, pink, blue,
green, red, whichever, whicheverone you decide to choose, but
ultimately, where they're allprocessing data at half an hour,
(16:40):
15 minute level, matching it toall the information we put in
about sales, shapes,availability, skills, and they
give us this best start.
I'd probably call it so, withall the information we've given
it, it's the best start for themanager to make the fine tuning.
Do you still see lots ofschedules?
(17:00):
This best start 85%, 95% thatwe've got to that are pretty
poor because the data's notgreat.
Speaker 2 (17:09):
Yes, I do.
I think the data that's goingto drive that schedule has got
to be timely, and I think with alot of the sort of poor quality
schedules that I'm seeing, it'sbecause we're not scheduling
(17:32):
far enough in advance or, likeyou say, the the data's being
corrupted or especially if sortof looking at special days in
the system, that maintenancepiece, so yeah, that's that's
where I tend to see sort of thepoorer quality schedule and it's
where people haven't investedin those seven pillars as well,
(17:55):
and so there's lots of.
You know, we want to be givingpeople that work-life balance,
so my view you should beshedding at least three weeks in
advance and what that poorschedules generally tend to be,
those where the data's not greatand people are meddling with it
right up to the last minute.
So I don't know what I'mworking tomorrow, when I should
know what I'm working two orthree weeks at a time yeah, yeah
(18:17):
, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (18:18):
There's got to be a fairness for colleagues and all
this because otherwise peoplewill restrict their availability
and go back to more of a fixedworking pattern, which then
limits the benefit you can getfrom the system.
So, talking of benefits, thendo you want to run us through
kind of some of the things thatyou see when people start to get
this right?
Speaker 2 (18:38):
yeah.
So you know, you know we don'tinvest all this time and money
for nothing.
So there are some real benefitsto be had by getting that sort
of right people, right place,right time.
And for me I mean they're quiteobvious on them but they're
transforming that customerexperience.
So we want to give thecustomers the best experience.
We can great service, shortqueues, great product
(18:59):
availability and we can Greatservice, short queues, great
product availability and we cango a long way to satisfy that by
making sure that we've gotlabor sort of meeting that
demand.
So when customers come in, youknow I'm a great believer in
sort of schedule efficiency aswell and I used to work on
something really basic that if Iwas 85% efficient on my
(19:19):
schedule, I've probably got a15% chance of a queue.
And if I'm 50% compliant on myschedule, then I've probably got
a 50% chance of a queue.
So that for me, making surethat you've got your staff in
when your customers need them,it's not only just about the
staff but it's also enhancingyour colleague experience.
So giving colleagues a fairschedule that's data driven.
(19:42):
So something we just touchedupon, built on accurate forecast
and forecasting and, mostimportantly, at least three
weeks in advance, we ensure theycan achieve that work life
balance.
So everyone's got busy lives.
So anything that we can bedoing to make our colleagues
lives better, the better for usit's going to be.
And then I think, colleaguesfront of house we want people
(20:05):
front of house, not back ofhouse.
So anything we can be doing forfreeing the managers up from
those onerous tasks around someof the HR processes, some of the
workforce management processes,definitely help us.
It will help drive the brandstandards and also drive sales.
And then the real benefit fromgetting an accurate forecast the
(20:27):
more accurate we forecast, thebetter control we're going to
have over our labor.
We can spread it moreefficiently, more effectively
and ultimately control thatlabor cost.
And I think a lot of people umassume that when you're looking
at schedules, workforcemanagement, especially
efficiency, it's all aboutreducing schedules, taking hours
(20:47):
out.
I don't think that's right.
Look where hours need to comeout.
Yeah great, we'll take them out, but it's it's for me it's
reinvesting the hours in themost appropriate times.
If we get that right so takingout labor off those shoulder
periods and putting into thosepeaks, not only will you be more
efficient but you'll startdriving sales.
And in my view, if you'redriving sales and making
(21:10):
yourself more efficient, the wayyour labor model works is that
you will actually get more hoursgenerated as we go forward.
So there's some real keybenefits there from getting them
out right people, right place,right time, the best you
possibly can yeah, no, totallyagree, you can save your way out
of so much.
Speaker 1 (21:28):
But I think in the current climate, with the cost
challenge, you've got to driveatv, you know, maximize your
conversion in terms of thefootfall, because you can only
save.
There's just some stuff you'vegot to do and there comes a
point where you're at the bottomline and you can't remove any
more labor.
Yeah, so fascinatingconversation.
I mean we could go on and talkabout ai and all those other
(21:51):
bits, but clearly that theworld's evolving so quickly that
that stuff changes daily andagain all the solutions are
starting to use co-pilots, aiand and all sorts of other
wonderful things in their, intheir software.
If people want to find out moreabout you, want to chat this
through further, want you tocome and do some work on their
(22:12):
wfm system or project, where'sthe best place for them to find
you?
Speaker 2 (22:16):
the best way is to look for matthew hayward on
linkedin or wfm consultingcoukand you can drop me an email at
matthew at wf consultingcouk andI'll be happy to have a chat
perfect, we'll put.
Speaker 1 (22:32):
We'll put the link to your linkedin profile in the
notes so we can make it nice andeasy for people to find.
You Really enjoyed theconversation, something that's
brought back some memories forme and is close to my heart as
well for people to getting itright.
So appreciate your time and wewill catch up soon.
Speaker 2 (22:48):
Yeah, thank you.
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