November 5, 2023 • 24 mins
Join us for a discussion with Julie Develin, Sr. Partner, HCM Advisory at UKG and a recent recipient of the top 100 HR influencer award, as we navigate the intricacies of the employee lifecycle and employee experience. As an expert in her field, Julie unveils how UKG technology plays a pivotal role in employee thriving and retention, and she dissects the profound consequences of labour turnover and negative onboarding experiences
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to the Productivity Podcast.
I'm delighted today to bejoined by Julie Devlin, senior
Partner HCM Advisory at UKG andhas just been awarded a top 100
HR influencer title.
Hi, julie.
Hi Simon, Great to be here withyou.
Thanks for coming on.
I know you're busy travelingall over the world.
(00:21):
I think we're speaking andyou're actually.
We're actually in the samecountry.
You're in the UK at the moment,aren't you?
Speaker 2 (00:26):
I am in the UK.
It's my first time here inLondon and it's been fantastic.
Everyone's been so very kindand really, really enjoying my
time here.
So, yes, we are in the sametime zone, it appears.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
Good.
I'm not sure the weather's beenthat kind, but at least us
Brits are being kind, which is agood thing.
And congratulations on your top100 HR influencer.
I think that's just recentlybeen announced, hasn't it?
Speaker 2 (00:51):
Yes, yes, it was quite the nice surprise.
It was by a company calledEngage Lee.
They do an annual list of top100 HR influencers in different
categories and I was fortunateenough to be named in the talent
management category and it wasa very nice surprise, very, very
humbled, to be among suchesteemed colleagues there or
(01:14):
peers, if you will notcolleagues, peers on that list.
So thank you for mentioningthat.
Speaker 1 (01:21):
No, problem, no problem, and you worked for UKG.
We've had a couple of yourcolleagues on in previous
episodes, but do you want tojust remind the listeners about
what UKG does and the kind ofthings industries you help?
Speaker 2 (01:34):
Absolutely.
We help all industries.
We are literally around theworld, a global company, and we
do everything from hire toretire when it comes to
workplace technology.
So we're a cloud based andreally onboarding, scheduling,
(01:57):
timekeeping, everything andeverything in between.
We provide the technology thatworkplaces can utilize to really
help their people thrive.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
And for those in the UK probably known as Kronos for
a good number of years beforethe kind of marriage with
Ultimate.
So for those of you that useKronos, you'll have seen it
rebranded now UKG and for thosethat didn't know Kronos, it was
Kronos before UKG.
So there's the plotted history.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
Yes, yes, we merged over the pandemic, which was not
exactly ideal, but we managedto take two six thousand person
companies and merge themcompletely virtually, which is
pretty amazing.
Speaker 1 (02:38):
Absolutely, absolutely.
Maybe not what you plan to doagain, and I'm sure we're not
planning for another pandemic,but a good time to get it done,
I suppose Absolutely.
So I know your kind of world isin that kind of HCM space and
one of the things I think wouldbe interesting to talk about is
I suppose you talked about theemployee life cycle that UKG
(03:02):
helped with.
From some people call it cradleto grave.
That may be a bit pessimistic,but we're certainly in the UK
experiencing a really strangetime where costs are rising.
We have national living wage andthat's just been announced
It'll go to a minimum of 11pounds an hour from next April
when our tax year starts.
Organisations, regardless oftype, I think, are experiencing
(03:26):
really high labour turnover.
Clearly mental health andwellness at work is at a much
bigger angle now for allorganisations and individuals.
I'm not sure if you'll see inthe same in the States, but I'll
just kind of leave it with onestat that I've heard recently
that for every two employeesthat joined a company in the UK
(03:48):
retail hospitality last year,more than one left within 12
months.
Speaker 2 (03:53):
Yes, that sounds very , very accurate.
In fact, I'm surprised thatit's that long of a time.
You know there are studies outthere and UKG has a research arm
that does global workplaceresearch.
It's calledWorkforceInstituteorg.
There are studies out therethat show that if folks don't
(04:14):
have a good onboardingexperience or don't have good
workplace technology, thatthey're going to leave the
organization within, say, 45days to 90 days or so.
So, yes, the turnover isabsolutely an issue.
It transcends internationalwaters.
(04:36):
I would say it's absolutelysomething.
And you know you mentioned theemployee life cycle.
I like to call the employeejourney, but along that journey
there are so many moments thatmatter, and moments that matter
(04:56):
are these snippets of time thatcreate a lasting emotional
impression on someone.
And there are so many of thesethat happen at work that many of
the either whether it's HR ormanagers, who's ever doing
whatever task it is, say,onboarding someone or doing a
performance review, or teachingthem how to clock in and clock
(05:19):
out we see that as sort of apart of our job.
It's our job to teach someonehow to do that, but for them
it's a daily thing and it'ssomething that actually matters
and it helps to shape theirsentiment regarding the
workplace and, in particular,whichever workplace they're
working for.
You know, there's always thatold adage that no one really
(05:42):
remembers what you say to them,but they always remember how
they make you feel right.
It's all about those feelingsand I think that employees today
, with the workplace, feelingsactually matter more than
probably ever.
Speaker 1 (05:56):
Yeah, I agree, and I mean I've not got any stats.
But one of the things that'sprobably not talked about in
that whole transient populationof people that are coming and
going seemingly all the time atthe moment in organizations is
the cost of recruitment,onboarding, training, uniform
exiting, re recruiting.
That that's not free time, isit?
(06:17):
Leaders are doing some of thathead office now.
We're doing some of that withthese kind of automated
recruitment portal, so itthere's a big on cost to having
such big churn, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (06:29):
Yeah, yeah, we don't recognize just how much it costs
to hire and then have toreplace an employee, and it's it
really, really does matter thekind of experience that we're
providing these folks from dayone.
And I would even go fartherthan that and say what kind of
(06:50):
experience are we providing thembefore day one?
Because there's a school ofthought that onboarding an
organization starts before thatsomeone even walks in the door.
It starts with the perceptionthat someone has of your
organization.
It starts with your online, thechatter that's going on online
(07:12):
about your organization.
So I suggest that organizations, folks, who the stakeholders
should should always be aware ofthat conversation, both good
and bad, and do everything thatyou can to control that
conversation online, becauseperception is reality.
Speaker 1 (07:28):
Yeah, and I think it's one of those, isn't it?
If?
If you've got those warningbells, alarm signals in your
head and let's call it thehoneymoon period, because before
you've started, everything itlooks rosy, doesn't it?
The grass is green and all thatkind of stuff.
A friend of mine went tocompany's names, applied for a
role, and he actually got anemail that said sorry, you're,
(07:50):
you've not been successful toget to the kind of final stage
of this.
Then he had one half an hourlater that said we're delighted
to invite you to the final stageof this job, swiftly followed
by a phone call that said oh,we're really sorry, we've sent
the wrong emails to the wrongpeople.
And it a kind of his responseas well, which one's true, and
thankfully it was the one youthrew to the next round.
(08:11):
But when we were chatting andhe was telling me this story, I
was kind of if they can't getthat right at this stage, what
must that company be like towork for when you're employed?
Speaker 2 (08:23):
That is a fantastic story and a perfect example of
how things can go wrong.
It's these moments that matter.
And here's the thing you justproved that this was not your
experience.
This was your friend'sexperience.
So now you have.
Whenever you think of whateverorganization that is, that is
(08:44):
the first impression that youhave of that organization.
They didn't have everythingtogether.
So you're right, how could they, how could the rest of the
employee journey be be good ifthey can't get that right?
You know, there's another bigproblem that's going on today
with organizations ghostingapplicants, meaning meaning
(09:08):
ghosting them and basically justnot even giving a reply or or
reaching back out to someone whoapplies for a job and maybe
asking a few questions and thenthey'll never be heard from
again, so that that again, youknow, shapes people's opinion of
organizations.
Speaker 1 (09:30):
Yeah, and it made me wonder if there was somebody
unfortunately else who'd had ayes you threw to the next round
of this job.
That actually wasn't.
So if they mixed it one way,could they have mixed it up the
other, which is probably an evenmore awkward conversation?
Oh, absolutely yeah, that wouldbe terrible.
And I think again we talked ondifferent podcasts around the
different generations in the inthe workforce Baby boomers, x, y
(09:53):
, z coming through to, to alphain the near future when they
start to enter the workplace andI think you touched on it
before there's there's thisexpectation and I think that's
the right word of really someI'd call it hygiene factors that
I expect as an employee now.
So I probably expect my pay slipto be online and to be able to
look at it whenever I want.
I expect a workforce managementsolution to give me my
(10:15):
schedules on an app to be ableto shift, swap, shift bid.
More increasingly over in theUK and I'm sure it's probably a
bit more advanced in the Statesis this kind of pay on demand.
So I'm going to actually shiftfor you tomorrow and I can pull
down the pay maybe the day after.
So organizations that aren'tworking towards that, or don't
already have that in place, Isuspect to suffering even more
(10:37):
with this high level of churnthat we're experiencing.
Speaker 2 (10:41):
Absolutely.
In a day and age where I canpurchase a car with my cell
phone with just a few clicks, Idon't want to have to go back in
time at work when it comes tomy workplace technology we don't
think of.
A lot of times organizationsdon't put enough emphasis on
just how important a good HRtech stack is for organizations.
(11:05):
Again, going back to thatemployee journey and those
moments that matter along theway, all of those touch points
create that lasting impression.
If I have to struggle or if thesoftware that I'm utilizing
isn't effective, that's going tohurt productivity Because I'm
going to be spending timefiguring out how do I get
someone to cover my shift if I'munable to do it, if I have to
(11:27):
go through three or four folksto even get the answer to that
question.
Giving employees obviously withthe cell phones and everything
we are all used to that autonomywhere we're able to do things
on our own.
I think that, putting anemphasis, it goes beyond HR
(11:48):
software Really all of thetechnology that we're providing
to our employees from a tool'sperspective is important.
I think that a lot of peoplethat I speak to and I have the
good fortune of talking to HRprofessionals and business
professionals across the world.
They always say, or I alwaysask do your employees have the
(12:11):
tools that they need to gettheir job done?
It always gives people pause.
Because my next question is inyour head.
You say, yes, my employees havewhat they need to get their job
done efficiently andeffectively.
My next question is how do youknow?
When is the last time yousurveyed or talked better, yet
(12:32):
had a conversation withemployees as to whether or not
they have the tools andtechnology they need to get
their job done?
Because when we're talkingabout hiring and we're talking
about onboarding and that kindof thing, having a good system
in place with that and goodtechnology with that will
increase time to productivity.
But it's not just increasingthe time to productivity, it's
(12:54):
the productivity itself.
And is that relevant on anongoing basis?
Speaker 1 (12:59):
Yeah, and I think the one thing and clearly we should
acknowledge that some of thesesolutions in big organizations
are expensive and difficult todo on scale but nonetheless are
becoming easier and easier astechnology becomes more
applyable the cloud ways ofrolling out and communicating
with frontline colleagues, butwe shouldn't shy away from if
(13:21):
your colleagues aren'tproductive, they're probably
spending less time withcustomers, therefore less
opportunity to sell.
Motivation is probably notgreat so therefore they're more
likely to leave.
So if we think about the endgame, it's around.
I think most organizationswould recognize if you have on
the whole because noteverybody's always going to be
(13:41):
happy a happy consensus ofcolleagues that typically
relates to good experiences forcustomers and all then the halo
effect of less churn, thereforeless recruitment, therefore less
of that invisible cost.
Speaker 2 (13:56):
Absolutely, and you know, simon, you mentioned
earlier employee expectationsand how employee expectations
have changed.
The pandemic shifted a lot ofthings, but I think it's
important for us to recognizethat even prior to the pandemic,
employee expectations wereshifting.
There's a concept that I talkoften about called the
(14:17):
psychological contract at work,and for those listening, you may
or may not be familiar with it.
It's that exchange relationshipbetween the employer and the
employee as a concerns mutualexpectations of fairness and
balance.
So, in layman's terms, are you,as the employer, providing me
with what I'm expecting as theemployee, and vice versa?
(14:38):
It's a two-way street.
It's an unspoken contract,unwritten contract, not
something you could see, notsomething you could sign, but it
makes up everything when itcomes to the employment
relationship.
And whenever that contract orthose expectations are out of
balance, organizations need towork harder to try and put it
back into balance, and that hasto do much with communication
(15:03):
and many, many other factors.
So if we think of the workplace, if we think of work as an
iceberg and we look, we thinkabout what's above that line,
that water line, the things thatwe see.
We generally see work and pay,and those things are generally
agreed upon.
Whether they are happy, that'sanother story, but they're
generally agreed upon whensomeone's hired.
(15:23):
But if you think abouteverything that's underneath
that iceberg from the hoursworked by the employee or the
safety and the security providedby the employer, or the
benefits offered by the employeror the I mean, you name it the
extra time that someone isputting in on certain tasks
(15:44):
those are the things that reallymake up the employee and the
employer relationship, thosethings that we can't see
underneath the iceberg.
Speaker 1 (15:51):
Absolutely.
And, as you said, that kind ofshift started pre-pandemic, as
maybe intensified post-pandemiconwards.
And what does the future looklike?
So in your conversations, wheredo you see things heading?
Is it just kind of iterationson what we do today, or is there
going to be some seismic shiftssomewhere?
Speaker 2 (16:12):
Well, I wish I had a crystal ball to, but if I had to
guess, based on what we'veexperienced, I think there will
be more seismic shifts.
Except those seismic shiftshappen to, they happen to be
sort of over time.
It's not.
It's not an all in one snapyour fingers.
I mean, if we think about thepandemic, work changed overnight
(16:33):
.
But since then and sincethere's been the whole return to
office movement and everythingwhat employers are seeing is
that expectations have shifted.
From the perspective oforganizations or employees,
their priorities have changed.
The pandemic revealed a lot ofdifferent things for people from
(16:56):
a personal level and especiallyrevealed the importance of
their time and where they'respending their time and where
they're not spending their time.
So I think as employers, weneed to make sure that we are
giving folks a reason to want tospend time at work and treating
them from a human perspective.
Because if we can no longer, asemployers, look at the person
(17:20):
as just the worker, we have torecognize that the shift between
, or the balance of, work lifethat's really generally a myth
the work life balance, with our24 seven culture and our 24
seven connectivity.
Unfortunately, those lines havebeen so blurred it's almost
hard to talk about.
Oh, you just need to have worklife balance or whatever.
(17:42):
That is because work lifebalance for me may look a little
bit different than work lifebalance for you, for example,
because all of us, I always say,over the pandemic and even
prior to and now, we were all inthe same boat in terms of what
we were going through from asocietal perspective.
But not all of us were in thesame kind of boat.
(18:03):
You had some folks who were ina yacht and had and were able to
thrive during that time.
You had some folks in aspeedboat.
Things were just going tooquickly, heck.
You have some folks who havelost the life jacket a long time
ago and are just trying totread water.
So when we see, we hear thesecliches oh, we're all in this
together, and that kind of thing, I think it's important for us
to recognize no, we're not allin this together in the same
(18:26):
kind of way.
And that goes back to themental health conversation too.
I think that's important totouch on.
Speaker 1 (18:34):
Yeah, absolutely, I think it's.
It's going to be an interestingtime, isn't it?
And I'm part of me wonderswhether we see a pivot and
everybody who's working at homeor hybrid and ends up in next
year's time working back in theoffice because we've all lost
the human touch, if that makessense and virtual meetings have
taken over and and how thatimpacts kind of again mental
(18:58):
health, or if it draws the otherway and actually offices are
just some thing of the past thatwe've we've left behind, and
unless you're a frontline workerin a customer facing
organization, you kind of almostaccept the fact you rarely, if
ever, see some of the peers thatyou work with.
Speaker 2 (19:15):
Yes, and I think one of the things that we lost over
the pandemic is or we were, itwas amplified just how important
the social interaction that weget from work, how much that
provides to our lives.
And there are some schools ofthought out there and some
things that I've read that havetalked about this loneliness
(19:36):
epidemic.
So it's like we companies areasking folks to return to the
office, and I think that'spartly because you know, we have
to get back to that human tohuman conversation.
Technology is fantastic and ithas enabled us to thrive and
(19:57):
continues to enable us to thrive, but and to work across
international borders and timezones, etc.
But I think there's somethingto be said about innovation and
productivity when you get peoplein a room.
You mentioned generationsearlier.
I used to think of generationsas other.
I've done presentations in thepast, but I've stopped thinking
(20:19):
of them that way.
My whole thought on generationshas shifted generations at work
.
I believe that having moregenerations at work is a stark
positive, because when you getpeople in a room who have
different backgrounds, who havebeen at a company with different
for different amounts of time,who have, you know, have seen it
all, and then you have peoplewho are new, who've seen nothing
(20:40):
.
That's where innovation thrives, because you can have those
conversations and talk aboutwhat has worked in the past, and
then you can bring new ideas tothe fold.
The idea, though, is that wehave to be willing to listen to
people, and, again, you know, Ithink there's a lot of
opportunity there fororganizations to lean into the
power of generationaldifferences.
(21:02):
Rather than you know, theboomers not getting along with
Gen Z, etc.
Speaker 1 (21:08):
Yeah, and I still get back to, regardless of
organization, the best, I'd saythe best.
Probably pandemic is going todisprove exactly what I'm about
to say now.
But some of the best ideas arethe ones by the coffee machine
or when you inadvertently walkpast somebody in the corridor in
the office and say, oh, I meantto speak to you about so and so
(21:30):
and that kind of off the cuffconversation that some planned
unscripted.
We seem to have got into aworld that's very meeting,
virtual meeting, orientated.
There's not much chat, prayeror poster meeting because your
conscious you've overrun andyou're on your next one.
Whether the magic happened inthose bits.
Speaker 2 (21:51):
Yes, and some of the arguments from employees who
have been asked to return to theoffice is okay, I'm going to
come to the office and I'm stillon virtual meetings, so what is
the point?
Speaker 1 (22:03):
Yeah, I've seen that way.
We've been to meetings and it'sbeen deemed a face to face
because it's important, and youget there, and then it's going
to all so and so and so and soand so and so we're dialing in
and it's kind of 50% of theaudience aren't here now.
The point was we'd all be inone place and, from a practical
productivity point of view, yes,less time traveling.
(22:26):
Therefore you can do more work,which is good or bad thing, I
suppose debate from anenvironmental point of view,
less fossil fuels and lesstravel and petrol or train or
whatever.
So there's always that balanceto find, isn't there?
But yeah, I've seen that quitea lot recently of face to face
meetings, but then it ends upbeing online as well.
So you question the efforteverybody's made, or the ones
(22:49):
that have made to get there haveput in the effort.
Speaker 2 (22:52):
Yeah, and what I find is that when we talk about
return to office, companies havenot done a great job explaining
the why to employees.
They just were like, okay, well, okay, it's over, so you have
to come back to the office.
Not these are the reasons weneed you to come back to the
office, and I think thatcompanies will be well
positioned and really gain moretrust from employees and more
(23:15):
buy-in for coming back to theoffice if they were able to
explain the why's.
Even if that why is because wehave a very expensive lease for
our office building, at leastthat's saying something, and I
think that that transparencygoes a long way.
Speaker 1 (23:31):
Yeah, I agree.
And again I think, whetheryou've seen it or not, in London
this week there's that whole.
I work from home probablyThursday, friday, come in the
office Monday, tuesday,wednesday, so from again local
coffee shops and restaurants.
Their world's being decimatedby the fact that in these big
cities they've probably gotthree days of trade and then it
(23:54):
kind of flat lines.
Maybe over the weekend you gettourists, but it must be
difficult to manage the kind ofwhole ecosystem around that as
well.
Speaker 2 (24:02):
Absolutely.
There is so many repercussionsfrom employers going completely
virtual or even hybrid, like youmentioned.
The ripple effect really doeshave an impact on so many other
folks.
Speaker 1 (24:20):
Absolutely Well.
I know you're busy, soappreciate your time and I'll
let you get back to exploringLondon, but it's been
fascinating to meet and catch up, Julie.
We'll put your LinkedIn profileon the show notes.
If people want to find out more, they can get in touch directly
, and hope you enjoy the rest ofyour time in London.
Speaker 2 (24:40):
Thank you so much, fantastic conversation, I
appreciate it.
Welcome to the Productivity Podcast.
I'm delighted today to bejoined by Julie Devlin, senior
Partner HCM Advisory at UKG andhas just been awarded a top 100
HR influencer title.
Hi, julie.
Hi Simon, Great to be here withyou.
Thanks for coming on.
I know you're busy travelingall over the world.
(00:21):
I think we're speaking andyou're actually.
We're actually in the samecountry.
You're in the UK at the moment,aren't you?
Speaker 2 (00:26):
I am in the UK.
It's my first time here inLondon and it's been fantastic.
Everyone's been so very kindand really, really enjoying my
time here.
So, yes, we are in the sametime zone, it appears.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
Good.
I'm not sure the weather's beenthat kind, but at least us
Brits are being kind, which is agood thing.
And congratulations on your top100 HR influencer.
I think that's just recentlybeen announced, hasn't it?
Speaker 2 (00:51):
Yes, yes, it was quite the nice surprise.
It was by a company calledEngage Lee.
They do an annual list of top100 HR influencers in different
categories and I was fortunateenough to be named in the talent
management category and it wasa very nice surprise, very, very
humbled, to be among suchesteemed colleagues there or
(01:14):
peers, if you will notcolleagues, peers on that list.
So thank you for mentioningthat.
Speaker 1 (01:21):
No, problem, no problem, and you worked for UKG.
We've had a couple of yourcolleagues on in previous
episodes, but do you want tojust remind the listeners about
what UKG does and the kind ofthings industries you help?
Speaker 2 (01:34):
Absolutely.
We help all industries.
We are literally around theworld, a global company, and we
do everything from hire toretire when it comes to
workplace technology.
So we're a cloud based andreally onboarding, scheduling,
(01:57):
timekeeping, everything andeverything in between.
We provide the technology thatworkplaces can utilize to really
help their people thrive.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
And for those in the UK probably known as Kronos for
a good number of years beforethe kind of marriage with
Ultimate.
So for those of you that useKronos, you'll have seen it
rebranded now UKG and for thosethat didn't know Kronos, it was
Kronos before UKG.
So there's the plotted history.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
Yes, yes, we merged over the pandemic, which was not
exactly ideal, but we managedto take two six thousand person
companies and merge themcompletely virtually, which is
pretty amazing.
Speaker 1 (02:38):
Absolutely, absolutely.
Maybe not what you plan to doagain, and I'm sure we're not
planning for another pandemic,but a good time to get it done,
I suppose Absolutely.
So I know your kind of world isin that kind of HCM space and
one of the things I think wouldbe interesting to talk about is
I suppose you talked about theemployee life cycle that UKG
(03:02):
helped with.
From some people call it cradleto grave.
That may be a bit pessimistic,but we're certainly in the UK
experiencing a really strangetime where costs are rising.
We have national living wage andthat's just been announced
It'll go to a minimum of 11pounds an hour from next April
when our tax year starts.
Organisations, regardless oftype, I think, are experiencing
(03:26):
really high labour turnover.
Clearly mental health andwellness at work is at a much
bigger angle now for allorganisations and individuals.
I'm not sure if you'll see inthe same in the States, but I'll
just kind of leave it with onestat that I've heard recently
that for every two employeesthat joined a company in the UK
(03:48):
retail hospitality last year,more than one left within 12
months.
Speaker 2 (03:53):
Yes, that sounds very , very accurate.
In fact, I'm surprised thatit's that long of a time.
You know there are studies outthere and UKG has a research arm
that does global workplaceresearch.
It's calledWorkforceInstituteorg.
There are studies out therethat show that if folks don't
(04:14):
have a good onboardingexperience or don't have good
workplace technology, thatthey're going to leave the
organization within, say, 45days to 90 days or so.
So, yes, the turnover isabsolutely an issue.
It transcends internationalwaters.
(04:36):
I would say it's absolutelysomething.
And you know you mentioned theemployee life cycle.
I like to call the employeejourney, but along that journey
there are so many moments thatmatter, and moments that matter
(04:56):
are these snippets of time thatcreate a lasting emotional
impression on someone.
And there are so many of thesethat happen at work that many of
the either whether it's HR ormanagers, who's ever doing
whatever task it is, say,onboarding someone or doing a
performance review, or teachingthem how to clock in and clock
(05:19):
out we see that as sort of apart of our job.
It's our job to teach someonehow to do that, but for them
it's a daily thing and it'ssomething that actually matters
and it helps to shape theirsentiment regarding the
workplace and, in particular,whichever workplace they're
working for.
You know, there's always thatold adage that no one really
(05:42):
remembers what you say to them,but they always remember how
they make you feel right.
It's all about those feelingsand I think that employees today
, with the workplace, feelingsactually matter more than
probably ever.
Speaker 1 (05:56):
Yeah, I agree, and I mean I've not got any stats.
But one of the things that'sprobably not talked about in
that whole transient populationof people that are coming and
going seemingly all the time atthe moment in organizations is
the cost of recruitment,onboarding, training, uniform
exiting, re recruiting.
That that's not free time, isit?
(06:17):
Leaders are doing some of thathead office now.
We're doing some of that withthese kind of automated
recruitment portal, so itthere's a big on cost to having
such big churn, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (06:29):
Yeah, yeah, we don't recognize just how much it costs
to hire and then have toreplace an employee, and it's it
really, really does matter thekind of experience that we're
providing these folks from dayone.
And I would even go fartherthan that and say what kind of
(06:50):
experience are we providing thembefore day one?
Because there's a school ofthought that onboarding an
organization starts before thatsomeone even walks in the door.
It starts with the perceptionthat someone has of your
organization.
It starts with your online, thechatter that's going on online
(07:12):
about your organization.
So I suggest that organizations, folks, who the stakeholders
should should always be aware ofthat conversation, both good
and bad, and do everything thatyou can to control that
conversation online, becauseperception is reality.
Speaker 1 (07:28):
Yeah, and I think it's one of those, isn't it?
If?
If you've got those warningbells, alarm signals in your
head and let's call it thehoneymoon period, because before
you've started, everything itlooks rosy, doesn't it?
The grass is green and all thatkind of stuff.
A friend of mine went tocompany's names, applied for a
role, and he actually got anemail that said sorry, you're,
(07:50):
you've not been successful toget to the kind of final stage
of this.
Then he had one half an hourlater that said we're delighted
to invite you to the final stageof this job, swiftly followed
by a phone call that said oh,we're really sorry, we've sent
the wrong emails to the wrongpeople.
And it a kind of his responseas well, which one's true, and
thankfully it was the one youthrew to the next round.
(08:11):
But when we were chatting andhe was telling me this story, I
was kind of if they can't getthat right at this stage, what
must that company be like towork for when you're employed?
Speaker 2 (08:23):
That is a fantastic story and a perfect example of
how things can go wrong.
It's these moments that matter.
And here's the thing you justproved that this was not your
experience.
This was your friend'sexperience.
So now you have.
Whenever you think of whateverorganization that is, that is
(08:44):
the first impression that youhave of that organization.
They didn't have everythingtogether.
So you're right, how could they, how could the rest of the
employee journey be be good ifthey can't get that right?
You know, there's another bigproblem that's going on today
with organizations ghostingapplicants, meaning meaning
(09:08):
ghosting them and basically justnot even giving a reply or or
reaching back out to someone whoapplies for a job and maybe
asking a few questions and thenthey'll never be heard from
again, so that that again, youknow, shapes people's opinion of
organizations.
Speaker 1 (09:30):
Yeah, and it made me wonder if there was somebody
unfortunately else who'd had ayes you threw to the next round
of this job.
That actually wasn't.
So if they mixed it one way,could they have mixed it up the
other, which is probably an evenmore awkward conversation?
Oh, absolutely yeah, that wouldbe terrible.
And I think again we talked ondifferent podcasts around the
different generations in the inthe workforce Baby boomers, x, y
(09:53):
, z coming through to, to alphain the near future when they
start to enter the workplace andI think you touched on it
before there's there's thisexpectation and I think that's
the right word of really someI'd call it hygiene factors that
I expect as an employee now.
So I probably expect my pay slipto be online and to be able to
look at it whenever I want.
I expect a workforce managementsolution to give me my
(10:15):
schedules on an app to be ableto shift, swap, shift bid.
More increasingly over in theUK and I'm sure it's probably a
bit more advanced in the Statesis this kind of pay on demand.
So I'm going to actually shiftfor you tomorrow and I can pull
down the pay maybe the day after.
So organizations that aren'tworking towards that, or don't
already have that in place, Isuspect to suffering even more
(10:37):
with this high level of churnthat we're experiencing.
Speaker 2 (10:41):
Absolutely.
In a day and age where I canpurchase a car with my cell
phone with just a few clicks, Idon't want to have to go back in
time at work when it comes tomy workplace technology we don't
think of.
A lot of times organizationsdon't put enough emphasis on
just how important a good HRtech stack is for organizations.
(11:05):
Again, going back to thatemployee journey and those
moments that matter along theway, all of those touch points
create that lasting impression.
If I have to struggle or if thesoftware that I'm utilizing
isn't effective, that's going tohurt productivity Because I'm
going to be spending timefiguring out how do I get
someone to cover my shift if I'munable to do it, if I have to
(11:27):
go through three or four folksto even get the answer to that
question.
Giving employees obviously withthe cell phones and everything
we are all used to that autonomywhere we're able to do things
on our own.
I think that, putting anemphasis, it goes beyond HR
(11:48):
software Really all of thetechnology that we're providing
to our employees from a tool'sperspective is important.
I think that a lot of peoplethat I speak to and I have the
good fortune of talking to HRprofessionals and business
professionals across the world.
They always say, or I alwaysask do your employees have the
(12:11):
tools that they need to gettheir job done?
It always gives people pause.
Because my next question is inyour head.
You say, yes, my employees havewhat they need to get their job
done efficiently andeffectively.
My next question is how do youknow?
When is the last time yousurveyed or talked better, yet
(12:32):
had a conversation withemployees as to whether or not
they have the tools andtechnology they need to get
their job done?
Because when we're talkingabout hiring and we're talking
about onboarding and that kindof thing, having a good system
in place with that and goodtechnology with that will
increase time to productivity.
But it's not just increasingthe time to productivity, it's
(12:54):
the productivity itself.
And is that relevant on anongoing basis?
Speaker 1 (12:59):
Yeah, and I think the one thing and clearly we should
acknowledge that some of thesesolutions in big organizations
are expensive and difficult todo on scale but nonetheless are
becoming easier and easier astechnology becomes more
applyable the cloud ways ofrolling out and communicating
with frontline colleagues, butwe shouldn't shy away from if
(13:21):
your colleagues aren'tproductive, they're probably
spending less time withcustomers, therefore less
opportunity to sell.
Motivation is probably notgreat so therefore they're more
likely to leave.
So if we think about the endgame, it's around.
I think most organizationswould recognize if you have on
the whole because noteverybody's always going to be
(13:41):
happy a happy consensus ofcolleagues that typically
relates to good experiences forcustomers and all then the halo
effect of less churn, thereforeless recruitment, therefore less
of that invisible cost.
Speaker 2 (13:56):
Absolutely, and you know, simon, you mentioned
earlier employee expectationsand how employee expectations
have changed.
The pandemic shifted a lot ofthings, but I think it's
important for us to recognizethat even prior to the pandemic,
employee expectations wereshifting.
There's a concept that I talkoften about called the
(14:17):
psychological contract at work,and for those listening, you may
or may not be familiar with it.
It's that exchange relationshipbetween the employer and the
employee as a concerns mutualexpectations of fairness and
balance.
So, in layman's terms, are you,as the employer, providing me
with what I'm expecting as theemployee, and vice versa?
(14:38):
It's a two-way street.
It's an unspoken contract,unwritten contract, not
something you could see, notsomething you could sign, but it
makes up everything when itcomes to the employment
relationship.
And whenever that contract orthose expectations are out of
balance, organizations need towork harder to try and put it
back into balance, and that hasto do much with communication
(15:03):
and many, many other factors.
So if we think of the workplace, if we think of work as an
iceberg and we look, we thinkabout what's above that line,
that water line, the things thatwe see.
We generally see work and pay,and those things are generally
agreed upon.
Whether they are happy, that'sanother story, but they're
generally agreed upon whensomeone's hired.
(15:23):
But if you think abouteverything that's underneath
that iceberg from the hoursworked by the employee or the
safety and the security providedby the employer, or the
benefits offered by the employeror the I mean, you name it the
extra time that someone isputting in on certain tasks
(15:44):
those are the things that reallymake up the employee and the
employer relationship, thosethings that we can't see
underneath the iceberg.
Speaker 1 (15:51):
Absolutely.
And, as you said, that kind ofshift started pre-pandemic, as
maybe intensified post-pandemiconwards.
And what does the future looklike?
So in your conversations, wheredo you see things heading?
Is it just kind of iterationson what we do today, or is there
going to be some seismic shiftssomewhere?
Speaker 2 (16:12):
Well, I wish I had a crystal ball to, but if I had to
guess, based on what we'veexperienced, I think there will
be more seismic shifts.
Except those seismic shiftshappen to, they happen to be
sort of over time.
It's not.
It's not an all in one snapyour fingers.
I mean, if we think about thepandemic, work changed overnight
(16:33):
.
But since then and sincethere's been the whole return to
office movement and everythingwhat employers are seeing is
that expectations have shifted.
From the perspective oforganizations or employees,
their priorities have changed.
The pandemic revealed a lot ofdifferent things for people from
(16:56):
a personal level and especiallyrevealed the importance of
their time and where they'respending their time and where
they're not spending their time.
So I think as employers, weneed to make sure that we are
giving folks a reason to want tospend time at work and treating
them from a human perspective.
Because if we can no longer, asemployers, look at the person
(17:20):
as just the worker, we have torecognize that the shift between
, or the balance of, work lifethat's really generally a myth
the work life balance, with our24 seven culture and our 24
seven connectivity.
Unfortunately, those lines havebeen so blurred it's almost
hard to talk about.
Oh, you just need to have worklife balance or whatever.
(17:42):
That is because work lifebalance for me may look a little
bit different than work lifebalance for you, for example,
because all of us, I always say,over the pandemic and even
prior to and now, we were all inthe same boat in terms of what
we were going through from asocietal perspective.
But not all of us were in thesame kind of boat.
(18:03):
You had some folks who were ina yacht and had and were able to
thrive during that time.
You had some folks in aspeedboat.
Things were just going tooquickly, heck.
You have some folks who havelost the life jacket a long time
ago and are just trying totread water.
So when we see, we hear thesecliches oh, we're all in this
together, and that kind of thing, I think it's important for us
to recognize no, we're not allin this together in the same
(18:26):
kind of way.
And that goes back to themental health conversation too.
I think that's important totouch on.
Speaker 1 (18:34):
Yeah, absolutely, I think it's.
It's going to be an interestingtime, isn't it?
And I'm part of me wonderswhether we see a pivot and
everybody who's working at homeor hybrid and ends up in next
year's time working back in theoffice because we've all lost
the human touch, if that makessense and virtual meetings have
taken over and and how thatimpacts kind of again mental
(18:58):
health, or if it draws the otherway and actually offices are
just some thing of the past thatwe've we've left behind, and
unless you're a frontline workerin a customer facing
organization, you kind of almostaccept the fact you rarely, if
ever, see some of the peers thatyou work with.
Speaker 2 (19:15):
Yes, and I think one of the things that we lost over
the pandemic is or we were, itwas amplified just how important
the social interaction that weget from work, how much that
provides to our lives.
And there are some schools ofthought out there and some
things that I've read that havetalked about this loneliness
(19:36):
epidemic.
So it's like we companies areasking folks to return to the
office, and I think that'spartly because you know, we have
to get back to that human tohuman conversation.
Technology is fantastic and ithas enabled us to thrive and
(19:57):
continues to enable us to thrive, but and to work across
international borders and timezones, etc.
But I think there's somethingto be said about innovation and
productivity when you get peoplein a room.
You mentioned generationsearlier.
I used to think of generationsas other.
I've done presentations in thepast, but I've stopped thinking
(20:19):
of them that way.
My whole thought on generationshas shifted generations at work
.
I believe that having moregenerations at work is a stark
positive, because when you getpeople in a room who have
different backgrounds, who havebeen at a company with different
for different amounts of time,who have, you know, have seen it
all, and then you have peoplewho are new, who've seen nothing
(20:40):
.
That's where innovation thrives, because you can have those
conversations and talk aboutwhat has worked in the past, and
then you can bring new ideas tothe fold.
The idea, though, is that wehave to be willing to listen to
people, and, again, you know, Ithink there's a lot of
opportunity there fororganizations to lean into the
power of generationaldifferences.
(21:02):
Rather than you know, theboomers not getting along with
Gen Z, etc.
Speaker 1 (21:08):
Yeah, and I still get back to, regardless of
organization, the best, I'd saythe best.
Probably pandemic is going todisprove exactly what I'm about
to say now.
But some of the best ideas arethe ones by the coffee machine
or when you inadvertently walkpast somebody in the corridor in
the office and say, oh, I meantto speak to you about so and so
(21:30):
and that kind of off the cuffconversation that some planned
unscripted.
We seem to have got into aworld that's very meeting,
virtual meeting, orientated.
There's not much chat, prayeror poster meeting because your
conscious you've overrun andyou're on your next one.
Whether the magic happened inthose bits.
Speaker 2 (21:51):
Yes, and some of the arguments from employees who
have been asked to return to theoffice is okay, I'm going to
come to the office and I'm stillon virtual meetings, so what is
the point?
Speaker 1 (22:03):
Yeah, I've seen that way.
We've been to meetings and it'sbeen deemed a face to face
because it's important, and youget there, and then it's going
to all so and so and so and soand so and so we're dialing in
and it's kind of 50% of theaudience aren't here now.
The point was we'd all be inone place and, from a practical
productivity point of view, yes,less time traveling.
(22:26):
Therefore you can do more work,which is good or bad thing, I
suppose debate from anenvironmental point of view,
less fossil fuels and lesstravel and petrol or train or
whatever.
So there's always that balanceto find, isn't there?
But yeah, I've seen that quitea lot recently of face to face
meetings, but then it ends upbeing online as well.
So you question the efforteverybody's made, or the ones
(22:49):
that have made to get there haveput in the effort.
Speaker 2 (22:52):
Yeah, and what I find is that when we talk about
return to office, companies havenot done a great job explaining
the why to employees.
They just were like, okay, well, okay, it's over, so you have
to come back to the office.
Not these are the reasons weneed you to come back to the
office, and I think thatcompanies will be well
positioned and really gain moretrust from employees and more
(23:15):
buy-in for coming back to theoffice if they were able to
explain the why's.
Even if that why is because wehave a very expensive lease for
our office building, at leastthat's saying something, and I
think that that transparencygoes a long way.
Speaker 1 (23:31):
Yeah, I agree.
And again I think, whetheryou've seen it or not, in London
this week there's that whole.
I work from home probablyThursday, friday, come in the
office Monday, tuesday,wednesday, so from again local
coffee shops and restaurants.
Their world's being decimatedby the fact that in these big
cities they've probably gotthree days of trade and then it
(23:54):
kind of flat lines.
Maybe over the weekend you gettourists, but it must be
difficult to manage the kind ofwhole ecosystem around that as
well.
Speaker 2 (24:02):
Absolutely.
There is so many repercussionsfrom employers going completely
virtual or even hybrid, like youmentioned.
The ripple effect really doeshave an impact on so many other
folks.
Speaker 1 (24:20):
Absolutely Well.
I know you're busy, soappreciate your time and I'll
let you get back to exploringLondon, but it's been
fascinating to meet and catch up, Julie.
We'll put your LinkedIn profileon the show notes.
If people want to find out more, they can get in touch directly
, and hope you enjoy the rest ofyour time in London.
Speaker 2 (24:40):
Thank you so much, fantastic conversation, I
appreciate it.
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