March 1, 2021 • 60 mins
We had a great time interviewing our friend and colleague Dr. Amy Johnson about the nature of thought and how it impacts our relationships. As Amy points out, we're all in relationship with our thinking about other people and our thinking about ourselves. We can't be in direct relationship with anyone without experiencing them through thought.
Amy shares how seeing the role of thought in her life, helped her relax around some of the "problems" she imagined would eventually derail her relationship. Once she saw how she was making it up, she was able to be present and enjoy her husband just as he is.
One of the reasons it's so powerful talking to Amy is her ability to seamlessly draw from her knowledge about biology and neuroscience. It's our biology to have preferences, and for the mind to work the way it does -- calculating and assessing -- but realizing there is an invisible force at play that is far more powerful than our brain, helps us to shift our identification from our intellect to the intelligent, formless energy behind life.
We conclude the interview with a set of personal questions about Amy's own relationship, and we were really touched by her responses.
Amy's work centers around helping people who struggle with habits and anxiety as she struggled with this herself for many years. We cannot recommend Amy's work enough, and we outline some of her offerings below in the show notes.
This episode explores:
- We are a spiritual being having human experiences
- Our brains find evidence for whatever we expect
- This understanding is not about transcending the human experience
- The content of conditioning varies, but the same understanding can create a shift for anyone
- We have a greater perspective when the situation isn't about us -- sticky thinking is sticky because we've personalized it.
Amy Johnson, Ph.D. is a psychologist, coach, author, and speaker who shares a groundbreaking new approach that helps people find true, lasting freedom from unwanted habits via insight rather than willpower. She is the author of Being Human (2013), and The Little Book of Big Change: The No-Willpower Approach to Breaking Any Habit (2016). In 2017 she opened The Little School of Big Change, an online school that has helped hundreds of people find freedom from anxiety and habits and live a more peaceful life. Enrollment for the Spring is still open! School starts March 1, and enrollment is open until March 4, 2021.
Johnson has been a regularly featured expert on The Steve Harvey Show and Oprah.com, as well as in The Wall Street Journal and Self magazine. Learn more at www.DrAmyJohnson.com
Angus & Rohini Ross are “The Rewilders.” They love working with couples and helping them to reduce conflict and discord in their relationships. They co-facilitate individualized couples' intensives that rewild relationships back to their natural state of love. Rohini is the author of the ebook Marriage, and they are co-founders of The 29-Day Rewilding Experience and The Rewilding Community. You can also follow Angus and Rohini Ross on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram. To learn more about their work visit: therewilders.org.
Episode features the music of RhythmPharm with Los Angeles-based compos
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Rohini Ross (00:00):
Amy, thank you, Dr.
(00:00):
Amy Johnson.
Amy Johnson (00:04):
I know.
Rohini Ross (00:07):
Thank you so much for being our first podcast
guest quite...
Amy Johnson (00:11):
oh my gosh!
Rohini Ross (00:12):
honor for us.
Amy Johnson (00:13):
No, I am so honored. I I've been telling
people I know I've told you guysseveral times. I'm such a fan of
your podcast, I feel I wastelling someone, someone I work
with, who also was a huge fan ofyour podcast. She's like, Do you
listen to their podcast, and shehas a whole ritual around
listening to it at night whenshe's like doing her art. And
I'm like, I listened toeveryone. And I'm going to be on
(00:35):
it. We had this whole likelittle freakout, so I feel like
total fangirl. I love thepodcast, I was on the edge of my
seat, like what's gonna happenwith them. And I just love. I
love being able to be in thosesessions and then pop out and
have you guys talk about it. Ilove how you guys banter off
each other. And like, I'm sayingall all Angus`phrases like
(00:56):
everybody's batshit crazy. Andlike we're painting ourselves in
corners. All the little stuffalone.
Angus Ross (01:02):
Wow, that's so awesome.
Rohini Ross (01:04):
Thank you, And I had no idea. I mean, I know
because we've been talking aboutthis podcast for a long time. So
I knew you knew about it. But Ididn't know you're actually
listening to it. So that'samazing.
Amy Johnson (01:14):
I was really happy.
Because Yeah, so we've been Iheard a little bit bits and
pieces as it was comingtogether. So yeah, I feel like I
got a backstage pass to thewhole thing.
Rohini Ross (01:25):
So one of the things that we thought would be
great in terms of having guestspeakers on is for people to get
more of a sense of how broadthis understanding is, how
practical it is how it appliesto all different areas of life,
not just relationships in theway that we've been talking
about it. And so Angus and Iwould love for you to share more
(01:48):
about, you know, the ways thatyou work and share this
understanding with the peopleyou work with.
Amy Johnson (01:55):
Yeah, it's so interesting that it is all you
know, everything's arelationship, in a sense. And,
and, and so we haverelationships with what appear
to be other people, which areother people. But really, as you
guys explore, we're really inrelationship with our own
thinking about other people.
We're all obviously inrelationship with ourselves,
(02:16):
which really just means our ownthinking about ourselves or our
own thinking in a moment. And soyes, when I think about my work,
I mean it, it has largely, thenthen for people who are
struggling with habits oranxiety, although it is and it
isn't, you know, that's kind ofwhere people tend to be when
they first come to me, and wefirst start working together.
(02:38):
But then as that clears up, theyjust see so many other things
and you know, is you know, thenit's like all kinds of
relationships start changing. Soyeah, I primarily, I love to
work with people with habits andanxiety, because those are two
things, I struggled with myselffor a long time. From the lens
of, of seeing that we are habitfree, we are anxiety free, we
(03:03):
have everything we need, lifeisn't a problem, everything's
okay. And we see and experienceall of life through this
revolving kind of lens of ourown thoughts. You know, and, and
our thinking, by nature is veryhabitual, because, like thought
is creative, the power ofthought is fresh and new. But
(03:25):
we're humans, and it getsfiltered through a brain and our
brain spits it out in these veryhabitual ways, you know, so. So
as people start to see, okay,what I'm hearing and feeling and
seeing, it sure can feel likeit's the same old stuff over and
over again, and I can feel stuckin it. But I'm not that that's
just the show that's playing,you know, I'm, I'm something
(03:49):
bigger than this conversationthat's playing. That's where it
gets amazing. And there's justso much freedom you can feel
your way into.
Angus Ross (03:58):
I wanted to give you a big shout out for your book,
The Little Book of big change.
Because I think, you know, interms of what you've just said,
I think that this is apropos. Inthe work that I do at the
treatment center, I go in acouple of days a week, and for
the new residents that arrive intheir swag bag is the little
book of big change. So we Iguess, we try and sort of
(04:20):
actively encourage them to readthat, read your book. And for
those that do they are alwaysheavily impacted by it. But I
just love the fact that for me,because your book is such a big
and important backdrop to theirexperience, and the way that I
teach and work with them. Thatbook is always very, it's ever
(04:42):
present, you know, what thatbook is pointing to is always
ever present. And I feel likewhat I do there and what I learn
there from my interactions withthose guys and talking about
your book really informs how Ikind of show up and do the work
that Rohini and I do in therelationship arena. It's amazing
how we're all kind of pointingin the same direction. And it is
(05:05):
so universal. And it feels likethis understanding, it doesn't
really matter what you're doing.
We're all having kind of thesame conversation. So I'm in a
similar, I'm having thatconversation with the people in
treatment, I'm having that sameconversation, the people that
we're working with onrelationship, and I just love
that I love that element to thiswork. But I also wanted just to
(05:27):
say how that book is just reallyimpacted me and continues to
impact so many people on aweekly basis, certainly at that
treatment center.
Amy Johnson (05:35):
Thank you.
Rohini Ross (05:36):
Yeah, definitely check that out, Little book a
Angus Ross (05:36):
Yeah, big change. And we'll include
that in the show notes. There'ssomething that you said, Amy,
that I would love for you tojust say a little bit more about
in terms of how we are all habitfree. How I can't remember all
of what you said. But it's like,there really isn't a problem.
And I think that I hear thetruth in that. But I can imagine
(05:58):
some people might be like, what,what is she talking about? So
I'd love for you to share moreabout what you mean by that.
Amy Johnson (06:07):
Yeah, it's, you know, I think exploring this
kind of distinction that most ofus don't really explore, and
actually, between ourexperience, like what we think
feel, see, smell, taste all ofit, like the human experience,
what the reality we're in whatwhat's going on for us in any
(06:30):
given moment, that is alwayschanging. It's, you know, it
comes from thought it's informedby our senses. It's this big,
psychological, physiologicalkind of mishmash of energy
moving through us. And that'swhat, that's what we get to live
in. You know, it's pretty greatwhen we see it that way. But,
(06:53):
um, but I know for me, I thinkfor most people, like that was
the end of the road forever. Itwas like, Okay, well, this is
life, you know, I'm feelingthis, I'm thinking that I can
try to alter my thoughts orfeelings, but life's just given
me life. And this is this is asfar as it goes. And and what
this understanding is reallykind of opened up or has the can
(07:16):
open us up to is like, no,there's a whole world beyond
experience. So what we thinkfeel, do say all of that is
constantly changing. And in thedistinctions between what's
always changing, so what we'reexperiencing and what never
changes, what never changes is alot harder to send sometimes
(07:37):
because it's invisible. It's notin our faces it has it doesn't
have us getting in trouble orwrecking our health or wrecking
our relationships or finances,like our visible stuff does, you
know, but but to just even startwith that, that little opening
of like, wow, like, there's awhole What if there's a whole
other world beyond how thingsappear? What is there, what's
(07:59):
the backdrop behind all of thisstuff that just moves through us
all day, every day, when peoplestart to explore that, as you
know, you know, like, it's just,it's vague. And it's like, I
don't know. And it's kind ofweird at first, and then it's
not so vague, and then we get afeel for it. And then we can get
really familiar with it. Andthat's amazing. And that's when
(08:20):
the scales start to tip a littlebit where we're still human
beings having all the thoughtsand feelings that we have. But
there's a bit of space betweenus and all of that. And it's
more like we're just words, butit's almost like we're resting
more in who we truly are. Andall the other stuff is going by,
like when you guys talked aboutletting the train go by, you
(08:40):
know, the train just goes by,and we're here on the station
looking around saying, Wow,there's a whole world out here.
I didn't have to jump on thattrain.
Rohini Ross (08:53):
I thought you're gonna jump in.
Angus Ross (08:55):
I was, I was just somewhat loving the fact that
Amy Johnson is quoting, quotingsomething that I said, I'm
choosing not to hop on a train,I was just sort of enjoying that
moment.
Amy Johnson (09:10):
I'm trying to hold back.
Rohini Ross (09:14):
We can just fan out on each other here It sounds
like. And that the way that youjust spoke to that so
beautifully, Amy, that shift inidentification, I think is so
powerful, where we tend toidentify with what's tangible,
what we see is you're sayingwhat's constantly changing,
(09:36):
whether that be our thoughtswith that beer feelings, whether
it be our behaviors, but as welook in the direction of what's
beyond that, we might say theintelligence behind life like
what's that formless energy?
what's that energy that drivesthe rewilding and the metaphor
that we use? We start toidentify less with what's
tangible and more with our truenature, who we are beyond that,
(10:01):
and it doesn't limit us, fromembracing what changes and being
present to it and enjoying it,this isn't about transcending
the human experience it's about.
For me anyway, when I identifymore with what doesn't change, I
actually get to enjoy myhumaneness more and get to feel
(10:24):
more and tend to make betterchoices. Well...
Amy Johnson (10:28):
Yeah, it's like, it's like watching that action
thriller movie, knowing you'rewatching a movie, you get to get
fully into it. If that was youbeing chased by the bad guy,
you'd be in a very differentplace. But it's not we're just
eating our popcorn and watchingit. And, and, yeah, I agree, I
think there's such a sweet spotthere. And, and it can feel at
(10:49):
first like, Oh, I'm not I'll bedetached from my life, or you
know, all the concerns peoplehave. But I think like you said,
it's just the opposite.
Rohini Ross (11:00):
Yeah, that's it's beautiful way to just dip in
more deeply, and realize whatelse is there when we when we
look in that direction. And Iknow you have your school coming
up the Little School of BigChange to go along with your
book, The Little Book of bigchange. And that's, I've heard
so many people that haveparticipated in your program,
(11:23):
and experienced such profoundshifts in terms of greater
freedom, from habits thatthey've been troubled with. And
so I think it would be reallygreat to hear more about how you
see that supporting people inmaking those kind of shifts in
their life. Because initially,we're saying, well, your habit
free, but it does take some kindof effort, in a sense to see
(11:48):
that your habit free, like wecan wake up to that in a moment.
But often, the conditioning isvery strong. And so I think what
the container that you'vecreated with the school is
really helpful for help helpingpeople wake up to that. So love
to hear more.
Amy Johnson (12:02):
Yeah, I think, I mean, I think what you said is
right on, it's like, firstopening up to like, Hey, we are
habit free, we have everythingwe need, this is our essence.
And we don't experience that alot of the time because like you
said, the conditioning is sostrong, like from the from the
time we're tiny, we are pointedoutward, I mean, even the fact
(12:25):
that our eyes look out at theworld and bring it back to our
brains as if, you know, is ifit's all out there coming in at
us. So there's a lifetimeliterally for all of us a
lifetime of conditioning thatwe're we're dealing with and and
that's why I love this containerof you know, a group of people
(12:45):
from all over the world, all ofus just stepping step by step
together in it with curiosity,with like, what if all in
everything I do in the schoolcenters around these? what if
questions like I don't, I don'tknow how life works? For sure. I
don't want to tell anyoneanything. But what if this is
true? What if you actually arehealthy right now? And what if
(13:08):
this moving, changing, habitual,but moving and changing
experience isn't you and itisn't personal. And you don't
have to get so wrapped up in it.
And so, you know, we just kindof step through this exploration
as a group. And it always blowsme away how much people see from
each other, you know, and I knowyou guys run groups, and you see
(13:29):
this all the time to that itmakes our job so much easier. To
that it's like, Wow, look at allyour peers, like people just
open up, they're so vulnerableand honest, and, and what that
does for everyone around them,because we're really all the
same person. If we really wereall so different as we think we
are in our heads. A group likethe like ours wouldn't work so
(13:51):
well together. But given thatwe're pretty much exactly the
same except the surface leveldetails which aren't that
important anyway, we seeourselves and everyone else,
even when our circumstances areso different. You know, someone
comes in with an eatingdisorder. And and I'm working
with someone with depression andthe person with the eating
disorder sees their healththrough that conversation. So
(14:13):
it's so beautiful that it's notabout the details and the
specifics, we get down to theuniversal part of life and
that's where there's just somuch power.
Angus Ross (14:26):
Yeah, I think that what I've been noticing in the
group and we had a conversationthis morning and our group is
that people you know, the rain,he reminded me of something that
I feel like I've been seeing alot lately, which, you know, 10
years ago, I would have beenhorrified to think that I would
even say this you know, take meoutside shoot me if you heard me
saying this. But now I very muchembrace this, this this idea
(14:50):
that we are we are a spiritualbeing having a human experience.
And and lately I've been sayingthat a lot, but I have now
realized that what I've beensaying is that we're spiritual
beings, having a humanexperience that in somehow we're
still kind of these individualsin our, in our spirituality. And
I'm glad that I caught myselfdoing this this weekend, because
(15:14):
we are a spiritual being havingthis human experience. And in
that spiritual being, it's avery level playing field, it's
universal. And I think that'skind of like, at some point in
the conversation, often, I feellike within the group, we
realize that and there's thisbeautiful space that kind of
unfolds, where everybody dropsin and gets quiet. And it's just
(15:37):
a really beautiful feeling thatcomes out of that. And that
happened this morning in our inour community. And I think there
is something in that that sortof universal quality of that
space, that that people dropinto by just having this
conversation and looking in thatdirection. It's really quite
magical.
Amy Johnson (15:56):
Isn't it's so against, again, all that
conditioning and everythingwe've been told about fixing our
problems? And no, this is a realthing, therefore, I need to work
on it. Like, yes, if you're inan addiction, or anxiety or a
marriage that's going not well,it's a real thing. But
Therefore, I need to talk aboutit and look at it and fix it and
(16:18):
work on it all the time. Likethat piece is a little off, you
know, so it's like, hey, there'ssomething to see here. But when
we see that, yes, that's thethat's the, the psychological
piece of it. Just beneath thatalways there is that shared, and
that's, you know, it's like youguys said, like, love can always
be rewild. It's always there allthe time.
Angus Ross (16:40):
And I think there's a there's a relief in that isn't
that when suddenly peoplerealize, oh, like I've been,
I've been sticking to thisnarrative for so long. And yet,
actually is not real. That's notwho I am. There's something far
greater at stake here. And weall kind of getting a sense of
that. I think that those arethose moments that are so
beautiful.
Amy Johnson (16:58):
Yeah.
Rohini Ross (17:01):
I also really appreciate what you're saying,
Amy, about the power of groupand the power of looking in a
direction together that we seethat all the time in our welding
community. And that example ofhow someone that has what on the
surface looks like a completelydifferent issue, you know,
eating disorder versusdepression, how the same
(17:23):
understanding can have an impactand help wake them up from the
same, you know, from theconditioning, even though the
content of the conditioningmight be different. And the
behavior in the way that itshows up, looks different. It's
the the same understanding thathas the power to help make those
shifts. And when we often whenwe're not being worked with, you
(17:49):
know, when we're hearing someoneelse be given feedback, or we're
hearing someone else share theirinsight, when we have an open
mind, because we're not thinkingabout our problem. That's so
often when we get to hearsomething fresh and new, that
arises within ourselves, becausewe're not focused on what's
wrong with my marriage, orwhat's wrong with my behavior.
(18:10):
Why is it this way? We're justgenuinely curious, genuinely
open minded. And then bam, weget hit. And it's so powerful.
Amy Johnson (18:19):
Yeah, it kind of, you know, makes you think,
whenever something feels reallysticky, or we just can't see
around it there. It's alwaysbecause it's about us in our own
heads, you know, our mind hasmade it about us, or it just
looks so personal. And so that'swhy I think like you're saying,
Yes, when we're just listeningto someone else, has nothing to
do with us. So we just get tohear it in such a different way.
Rohini Ross (18:45):
And so I just want to let everyone know, Amy does
have a school that's going to bestarting up. What's the date
that it starts up? Amy?
Amy Johnson (18:52):
It starts Monday, March 1, and yeah, enrollments
open through that week. So we,
Rohini Ross (18:58):
yeah. Okay, great.
Well, and we will be acceptingenrollment on March 1. I know
this is going to air on thefirst so people can still sign
up.
Amy Johnson (19:05):
Yeah, through the fourth through March 4. Okay,
Rohini Ross (19:07):
great. So we'll include all of that information
in the show notes. I can'trecommend Amy's program more.
It's just I've again heardfirsthand, not just from Amy,
her experiences. I've heardthose two about the wonderful
transformations. But I've heardfrom many of her participants as
well, because our communitiesoften blend, which is really
cool. They'll be talking aboutwhat they're learning with you,
(19:28):
Amy, and they're sharing it inour community. And so, yeah, if
it's something that interestsyou, we'll include the link in
the show notes and you can gocheck it out. So, Amy, let's
talk a little bit morespecifically about relationship.
Are you okay with that? Yeah. SoI'd love to hear for yourself
(19:49):
when you're married. Correct.
And how long have you beenmarried for?
Amy Johnson (19:53):
It'll be 15 years this year.
Rohini Ross (19:56):
So quite a while.
So I'm wondering, I know forAngus and I there was a big
shift in our relationship preunderstanding versus post
understanding. And I would saythat we might have been on the
remedial end and therelationship areas. So that was
a big shift. I guess you'relaughing? Do you not think we
were remedial? Well, absolutely.
Angus Ross (20:17):
Yeah. I think the relationship was quickly heading
towards a cliff face. For aboutto fall off a cliff. Should I
say?
Rohini Ross (20:25):
Yeah, so I want to acknowledge that not everybody
has that kind of experience,where it's like the the
understanding tends to go towhere it's needed most. And for
us, it was really needed in theera of our relationship and made
a pretty dramatic impact on us.
So that may or may not be thecase for you. But I'm just
curious, we're curious to know,if you did notice a shift or how
it's, it's supported you in yourlife in terms of your
(20:48):
relationship with your husbandand your relationship with your
kids or anyone else.
Amy Johnson (20:54):
Yeah, I think I was probably pretty remedial, I
think he was doing okay. But Iwas definitely, especially in
the early years, one of thosepeople that was always in the
name of like, I'm gonna makesure we get this right. I was
always kind of predictingpitfalls, noticing things that
(21:16):
weren't really problems, butcould be that we needed to hash
out before they became problems.
So there was a lot of that kindof stuff happening where my poor
husband was like, is thisfinished, like, really, this is
a problem. He's like, I don'tknow, I don't feel it as a
problem. And I could, you know,in a good example, as I, I
remember, really, before we gotright before we got married,
(21:38):
really having a little bit of acold feet thinking about. So
funny to even go back there andthink about this now. But
thinking about like us, when wewere we have a 10 year age
difference. So I would imagineus at 60 and 70, wanting to do
completely different things.
Now, mind you, we were like 20and 30. But it was clear that it
(22:00):
was so obvious where we wereheaded, you know, 30 years into
the future. Because you know, asmost couples, we have some
different preferences, I'm alittle more active, he's a
little more relaxed. Like wekind of have a you know, we have
our our differences, whichhaven't changed, they haven't
changed at all. But they used tolook in my mind like such a
(22:22):
problem. And if not, Now, again,this is where my mind was always
10 steps ahead. If not today,like sure we're okay now, but
there's no way this is going tobe great. 30 years from now.
And, and you know, like, like,it just sounds crazy to say that
a little bit. Now, nut nut, youknow, it's a normal thing I'm
sure that a mind would do. ButI'm so much under that umbrella
(22:45):
of my mind looking ahead andpredicting and doing all that
has just changed so much. Andyeah, now it just even even if
we're in a place where we wanttotally different things like
like activity wise, you know,like, I do want to do something
and he doesn't or whatever, likethose differences, for sure come
(23:07):
up quite a bit. They just don'tlook meaningful. And it kind of
surprises me to look back andthink that I thought that was so
important. Like if we didn'twant to go on a hike together,
that was going to meansomething, you know, and now
it's like, oh my gosh, like, itdoesn't just doesn't matter. So
there's just so much on thesurface, all the thinking about
it. And the meaning especially,has just melted away. And and
(23:32):
then so when differences do showup, they just don't look at all
like I like I think they used to
Angus Ross (23:38):
this, this is a stupid analogy that comes up
because I feel like for sure,I'm sure so many people think
along these lines. But it's kindof like I don't know, I don't
know if I've ever done bingo,but I know people who have and
talks about it. It's almost likeyou got to like, let the numbers
line up. And I feel like with mywith our relationship, I was
always looking, the numbers haveto really line up and then all
(24:00):
of a sudden, now they're notlining up, that really means
something we're doomed tofailure. And then I can predict
into the future is like, yeah,the numbers are not looking
good. It's not gonna like I'mnot going to be able to yell out
bingo at any point in the nearfuture. Kind of makes me feel
like that.
Amy Johnson (24:17):
That's a good analogy. Yeah, yeah. I mean, and
it can look so serious whenyou're in it. You know, when all
your whole relationship lookslike that bingo board. It
matters, you know, and it's kindof like we like we were saying
earlier in the conversation, butwhen we get to back up a little
bit, and see, well, that's justa bingo board. There's a whole
other life a whole other way toconnect beyond that.
Angus Ross (24:41):
Yeah. Yeah, the bingo board in itself is just
playing the game. That'sbeautiful as it is.
Rohini Ross (24:47):
Yeah, if.. I'm trying to play with that
metaphor a bit, but if you'renot attached to getting bingo,
then all of the numbers on thatboard can be really fun. Doesn't
matter how they line up. And Ithink that's one of the things
that we hear a lot, andespecially even over a four day
intensive that we do with acouple, the shifts that can
(25:09):
happen between how they see eachother on that first meeting,
when we sit with them to wherethey're at, when we leave it,
when they leave, it's it's likethat shift, and it's the same
person. Right? Like you and yourhusband, you're the same people,
but yet, it can look sodifferently, just because the
(25:30):
difference that happens when westop making that meaning up, or
we're just open to differentmeanings, I mean, we're always
going to be making a meaning,but to see that the one meaning
that we've been making up allalong, doesn't have to be the
only meaning someone shared withme recently. And it was really
profound how it was kind of likeyour What if question, Amy,
(25:54):
like, what if my partner hasloved me all along. And that
flipped everything for them. AndI just thought that was so
beautiful, because that was notthe assumption that they were
operating from, they wereoperating from the assumption,
my partner doesn't love me. Andlife looks one way when that's
the assumption, but it's like,well, what if my partner loves
(26:17):
me, and then a whole differentworld gets created from that?
Amy Johnson (26:21):
That's, that's amazing. It does. I mean,
everything follows from whateverwe're starting with, our brain
just finds evidence for wheneverwe expect, you know, I'd see a
lot of that too. And so thatkind of is, you know, I was, I
see a lot of great relationshipsbefore mine, you know, and so I
just kind of anticipatedproblems, because that's what I
(26:44):
was familiar with his problemsand, and there was a lot of
filling in the blanks, and whatare our problems going to be,
because we're definitely goingto have them and, you know, and
I think there's some truth tothat, but I, I was holding
problems is like a really deep,meaningful, serious thing that
how they look now. So much abouthaving a sense of this
(27:05):
understanding is so like, itjust keeps our thoughts. So
fluid, and I think allows us tojust have insights, so
naturally, so in thought thatotherwise would be kind of
invisible, gets to be morevisible. So I, I recognize two,
I had a whole thing about myhusband, it would drive me crazy
(27:26):
when he would spend a lot oftime watching TV. And he would,
and he does, he still does anddoesn't change. But he you know,
he's a super chill guy, he justlikes to relax, a lot like Angus
is just like laid back, justkind of, you know, but he likes
his downtime, and I'm not likethat. So much. And, and I
(27:48):
recognized that I had so muchthinking about it early, early
on that, um, I would see himdoing certain things, and my
mind would fill in the blanks toagain, see him turning into his
dad, or like, turning into hisparents and I and it would just
complete this whole story thatwas so fabricated, and it's kind
(28:09):
of like, kind of what you'resaying about that? What if, you
know, I just, it was anunexamined belief I had, I
didn't even know I had it. Andas I just kind of get out of my
head in general, a little bitmore a lot of this stuff. Now
when it shows up, it's hard toexplain, but you know, I like
it, it kind of pops out like oh,that's what I was thinking, you
(28:30):
know, so there's been so so manyof those assumptions. And, you
know, it's still sort ofhabitually drives me nuts
sometimes when the TV'sconstantly on, but, but I see
it, like, I know where my mind'sfilling in a story. And then it
comes back to here and it's likein this moment, is the TV a
problem? Now, what would be aproblem? Isn't my husband
(28:52):
becoming his dad and all thisother story, but that's not
happening. What's happening ishe's had the TV on all day.
Angus Ross (29:42):
I love what Amy was saying about the fluid nature of
thought there's something for meto sort of, that's a growing
edge for me there. I feel likethere's an insight in the
making, to look in thatdirection. I feel like so much
of what I do is informed by youknow, the little book of big
change in terms of the way thatI see how your pointing to the
biology behind thought thebiology behind habit. I think
(30:04):
that's such an excitingreference point to begin this
conversation. And what you'resaying about the fluid nature of
thought is that I often talkabout when I do groups, I talk
about the biology of thought,and I talked about it being kind
of like, the screenwritingsoftware of our lives is how we
constantly kind of creatingnarratives. And it's interesting
(30:27):
to consider it on those terms islike, Am I gonna, like follow
the narrative, or are actuallygoing to follow the fluid nature
of thought, and the fluid natureof thought very much, is
encouraging me to look in thedirection of my intuition and
that intelligence. And that is awhole different way of showing
up that there's just toconstantly rely on the old
(30:47):
habitual thinking. So I justlove that idea, the fluid nature
of thought, and you Rohini, weretalking about the weekend,
something about the neuroplasticity of the brain, in a
sense is like, yeah, it'sconstantly changing. And we can
really celebrate thatpossibility rather than get so
stuck in our ways. Because weare creatures of habit, in a
(31:10):
sense, we're designed to becreatures of habit, you looked
at our biology, it's set up forus to be creatures of habit. But
understanding that really allowsus to sort of start to to have a
different human experiencethat's not based on water under
the bridge that's based on Yeah,let's live in the moment, let's
do life in the moment, ratherthan you know, what happened
(31:31):
yesterday or last week and bekind of gripped by that.
Amy Johnson (31:37):
And I think to seeing that, our patterns, and
those habitual places our mindgoes, they're not again, they're
not personal. I know, peoplesometimes have a hard time with
that, because it feels likethey're personal. And they're
coming from our childhood orwherever they're coming from.
But But yeah, that's just thebiology of it. That's just how
the machine works. So, you know,I got so much out of listening
(31:59):
to your podcast, just justseeing things. And from my own
relationship around theirdynamic and hearing a little bit
about your dynamic, and youknow, like, Alicia was very
volatile. And you guys said,Rohini, can be volatile. And
then there's this whole thing,there's a reaction to that. And
you know, and that's like, whatpeople feel like they get caught
(32:21):
up in. And me too, at times,like for us, we both had a lot
of volatility in our families.
So we both go the other way.
Now. So we have this tendencywhen when our thinking is out of
whack, to just both go inwardand shut down. And we can just
be ships passing in the nightfor a while until we wake up and
say, Hey, we haven't talked in awhile. We're both very happy,
(32:42):
just being introverts and nottalking that much. But yeah, it
has its things and, and for along time to that looked like,
wow, there's something in thatpsychological pattern. That
means we're not going to worktogether, we're not good
together, we need to fix it, weneed to get to the bottom of it.
And now it just looks a lot morelike it's not me, it's not him.
(33:07):
It's the culmination of all thisstuff, and our, our sweet little
minds trying to help us andprotect us and saying, We don't
like yelling, so let's just bequiet, and then our minds take
it too far. And then we justwake up to it when we wake up to
it. But you know, it justdoesn't just doesn't mean
anything about Amy and Ora as acouple together. And that is
(33:28):
huge. It's huge, because thepattern still happens sometimes.
But the bounce back is quicker.
And the meaning is not so much.
Rohini Ross (33:37):
Yeah, there's such freedom in that, as you're, as
you're talking about it I was itoccurred to me to have this
thought like, Oh, yeah, myoperating principle was, you
know, when Angus abandons me,that was the premise that I
would work from, like, when heabandons me, this is how I need
to take care of myself andabandoning me could mean leaving
(34:00):
me or it could mean dying. Or itcould mean being mean to me,
like it was just like this wholerange of when Angus abandons me
and that would be what I wasconstantly trying to protect
myself from the way that you'redescribing, like, Oh, you don't
want to have conflict. So you gointo the the quiet mode, and
it's like, oh, wow, that's sohelpful to see that. And see,
(34:24):
like you said, Your sweet littlemind like, that's just what our
brain is trying to help us within terms of our survival. And
that when we can see it for whatit is, we have perspective on
it, and even if we still do thethings that we do in terms of
the self protection or evenstill create that meaning,
(34:45):
having perspective on it is sucha game changer because I always
used to think that well, it'snot about having perspective.
This has to be got rid of like Ihave to stop having this
operating principle or I have toyou know, never think that those
thoughts again, but what I seenow, which is such a relief, is
that one losing perspective isokay, because it can come back.
(35:08):
And that too, when I haveperspective, even if I'm
engaging in a behavior, creatingmeaning that isn't really
serving me in the moment is ablast from the past. In a sense,
it takes the pressure off. Yeah.
Amy Johnson (35:24):
Yeah, I love that just just knowing we have we
fall into these, these littlepatterns and habits, but the
perspective on it is huge. And Ireally appreciate that. A can
see how, sometimes for somecouples, this the psychology,
like the patterns, even withperspective, right, it's just
(35:48):
gets to be too much. Sometimespeople just say, Hey, is this
this doesn't work, you know, butI, I don't know, there's a whole
whole level of kind of relief orfreedom or something that comes
from this understanding thateven then that's okay. Like,
even, you know, even if it if arelationship doesn't work out
the way we intended it to, weonly intended that with our
(36:10):
minds anyway, like, we make upthese rules, right about how
it's supposed to look. So it'slike, that's not you know,
typically when any marriedcouple wants, but it's just so
nice to kind of see, hey,sometimes our psychology is
really strong, and people moveon and even then, because again,
my my parents divorce was not afriendly one, like, it can be a
friendly separation for peopleat times, if it comes to that.
Rohini Ross (36:33):
Yeah, absolutely.
Angus Ross (36:36):
So much of it is, it's thinking about state of
mind, you know, going back tothat to what you were sort of
highlighting or low lighting, asthe case may be in terms of
marriage. For me, it was like,Oh, I will get into this sort of
pattern of thinking around,they're not going to be enough
bingo moments. And I need toreally teach her how to play
(37:01):
bingo, this marriage is gonnawork properly. And for me,
that's just that just surfaceswhen I'm in a low mood when I'm
in a low state of mind, I'mprojecting all all over you in
that respect. But it's alsoworth considering that you know,
that a lot of those narrativeswere born out of me having a low
mood, per se. So if I startreally getting hip to my state
(37:21):
of mind and look at it from thatvantage point, then yeah, why
would I start taking my thinkingnearly that nearly so seriously,
or, or in a better way, thatbecomes an indicator to me that
my thinking has gone south, ormy state of mind has gone self
best, best not to engage at thispoint, or the very least, you
know, you know, that will bewhere I can start to get
(37:43):
neutral.
Amy Johnson (37:45):
Yeah, yeah. When Rohinis nails bother you, we
know.
Angus Ross (37:51):
That's my best.
That's my best.
Amy Johnson (37:53):
Now it seems like Im stalking, you guys or
something
Rohini Ross (37:57):
I think you probably knew knew that already
gave me the same for fulldisclosure because, Amy, you
know, we've known Amy for a longtime. And when we started to
hear how similar some of thedynamics are in your
relationship, and kind of likehow I'm a doer, and I like
getting things done. And, youknow, rasdhoo needs that. Not
not that I don't think rest is agood thing. But Angus is a lot
(38:19):
more, you know, mellow likes totake things at a different pace.
He's like, I don't know if youshould be spending hanging out
with Amy.
Angus Ross (38:28):
I know. When I when I've run out of wiggle room to
blame Rohini for all my woes Ican I can always then turn to
Amy because he's like you'relearning it from her?
Amy Johnson (38:42):
Well, I'm glad my husband doesn't know you guys
cuz it would probably be thesame thing. Like no more
Rohinis time
Rohini Ross (38:52):
And we all know, Anguss sacred Sunday.
Angus Ross (38:55):
I know that's been that's been violated in no
uncertain terms of late.
Rohini Ross (39:02):
Anyway, but I do I have I have a greater respect
for taking it easy and restbecause of you, Angus. So I
think we balance each other out.
Angus Ross (39:11):
And I've learned I've I've learned to work a
little harder to you will findsome no I should I say find some
inner resilience better. Findsome inner resilience that I
ever like, tapped into that Ididn't know was there because of
you. That's a good thing.
Rohini Ross (39:33):
Amy, we have some questions that we're going to be
asking all our guest speakersand they're just kind of like
improv. So whatever comes tomind, are you open to playing
with us in terms of thesequestions?
Angus Ross (39:44):
Yeah.
Rohini Ross (39:45):
All right. So Angus, you ready? Can I can I
start? Yeah. Okay, so the firstone is, what's one of your
fondest memories in yourrelationship?
Amy Johnson (39:57):
There's one image that I always go back to the
night before we got married. Hewe got married in Chicago, we
lived in Chicago at the time,and he was staying in the hotel
where our guests were staying.
And it's just, it's not anythingeven that special. But you know,
(40:17):
just you asking that questionjust brings back this little
moment of just this little like,wave goodbye, knowing like,
tomorrow was a whole new wholenew start was gonna happen. And
our wedding was so nice. And,you know, I, I don't know, one
of the things I love too. Sorry,I won't go into this too much.
But, um, that I just, itresonates so much about your
(40:39):
rewilding concept and just bringin this in that literally, like,
you can ask that question. And Ican go back to almost 15 years
and just feel that if you knowif our experience isn't coming
from the inside out, I don'tknow how the heck that would
make sense. Cuz 15 years ago,you know, so just that a
question like that can like makeme all giddy? That's awesome.
Rohini Ross (41:02):
And then you were on zoom doing this. So we I know
it's just gonna be audio, butyou should see Amy's face when
that memory like it was just sobeautiful to see that fun is
lovely.
Angus Ross (41:12):
Yeah, that's so gorgeous. Thank you. Okay, well,
I get to ask the next question.
What is one of the funniestmemories in your relationship?
Amy Johnson (41:22):
Oh, gosh, there's been a lot of funny stuff with
our kids. Like since we've hadkids. Actually, one of the
funniest ones might have beenlast night like my husband is
six foot three, like 220 pounds.
He's like a big guy, right? Andmy kids are nine and 11. They're
kind of little and my son who'san iron is super into karate.
(41:44):
Thanks to Karate Kid. And nowCobra Kai, he's all into
fighting. So he always wants tospar and do all this stuff. And
I'm in my fight my big husbandhe asked my son Miller asked for
a fight just fight don't fighthard. Just fight the way one of
my friends which like we alwayskind of make fun of Miller's
(42:05):
friends are kind of funny. So hedoes this thing. I can't do it.
You won't see it on the on theaudio, but um, he does this
dance with the craziest face andhe's like coming at my son with
our all of his like, flailingall over the place. And we ended
up calling him we say Look, whenyou look like a giraffe who's
just been a tranquilizer. I wasliterally last night. There's a
(42:29):
lot of fun stuff. And I and Ilove. I love having kids. You
know, I mean, for both of usbring out our humor and
everything like
Rohini Ross (42:38):
yeah, it's funny when you're sharing that I love
I love that picture sounds likea perfect tic toc. It just I got
this memory of our kids onetime. I think we all had the
stomach flu. And they were bothI think one of them was like
maybe one and one of them wasthree. And we kind of slept
(42:59):
separately because they bothweren't well, and there was in
between the two bedrooms was thebathroom. And we ended up both
of us in the bathroom at thesame time with each child
throwing up. And we just burstout laughing because we were so
exhausted. We're either gonnacry, or we're gonna laugh and we
may have a laugh about it now.
But I know kids definitely giveus those memories. So a little
(43:22):
bit more serious than this. No,but you don't have to take it
seriously. It's like, what's oneof the most difficult times in
your relationship? And how didyou get through it?
Amy Johnson (43:34):
You know, I think honestly, like we we haven't had
a lot of really prolonged bighard times. But I do think
probably in recent years, youknow, when life was super busy,
or even now when life is alittle bit less busy, but we're
(43:54):
all under the same roof. 24seven, we haven't had a date
night and over a year. There'sjust little moments in the kids
who seem to be always around. Sothere's maybe an hour when the
kids go to bed before I fallasleep. Like, you know it, I
just have such a respect for howwe can can get tough and how we
(44:15):
can just fall fall into this.
Like, is it really worth theeffort? You know, like we both
are tired and busy andeverything else. And just and
just to see how how more oftenthan not, we kind of take that
nudge and say yeah, it's worththe effort, you know? And if
it's not right now, like Don'tworry, we don't have to make it
mean anything. We'll get back ontrack, you know, but I do think
Yeah, and these early years ofnot even little kids but for us,
(44:39):
I think maybe our kids beinglike kind of five to 10 range.
There's just whirlwind ofactivity and stuff and very easy
to kind of lose connection.
Rohini Ross (44:51):
And I acknowledge you especially during this time
of pandemic having young kidsthat that definitely shows your
grounding to navigate that
Angus Ross (45:02):
I don't know how well how well I would have done
in those under those conditionsor these conditions. Okay, so
next question. How do you dividedomestic labor in your
relationship?
Amy Johnson (45:17):
Well, my husband is primarily home with our kids and
taking care of the house. So andI'm primarily working a lot. So
it's kind of easy in that way,really, I mean, we sort of have
an agreement, it'd be a lotharder, I think, if we both
worked, and we had to navigatethat. That said, I like things
(45:39):
cleaner than he does. So eventhough I work all the time, you
know, by choice, I work a lot bychoice. And technically, the
home is kind of his thing. Thatdoesn't really stop me from kind
of making lists and saying, Hey,you know, I think this could be
a little cleaner. Why don't we?
Why don't we look over here thisweek, focus on this, when you
have some time this week. Wehave those conversations almost
(46:02):
every weekend. And sometimesthere's a little tension around
them. Although that is anotherarea that I really want to like
that I'm really proud of us, youknow, that we've, it's, it's not
easy for him to have me tell himwhat to do? No, no doubt about
it. And and I try my best and,you know, but yeah, sometimes
there's a little tension, a lotof times less and less. Now
(46:24):
there is a lot of times thereisn't. But even when there is
it's like we kind of give eachother that, look, we know what's
going on in each other's minds.
And there's tech in general,this kind of sense of like,
okay, yeah, we're a little onthe nerves right now. But just
go do our stuff. And we'll comeback together and it'll all blow
over.
Angus Ross (46:43):
I have this vision of you coming home from work and
walking around the house with aclipboard and doing quality
control.
Amy Johnson (46:52):
I have a white rag.
Angus Ross (46:56):
Yeah, white gloves?
No.
Rohini Ross (47:03):
Luckily, Angus likes things cleaner than I do.
So he tends to benefit fromthat. And so how are the
finances handled in yourrelationship?
Amy Johnson (47:15):
Well, it's interesting, when we first got
married, we kept thingsseparate. We, you know, I was
29. And he was 39, when we gotmarried. So we both had a little
bit of a history of havingseparate and there was no reason
to combine. But when ourdaughter was born three months
after our daughter was born, hequit working. So everything's
just obviously been all togethersince then. And it's pretty
(47:36):
simple. I mean, we that's neverbeen an issue for us. He pays
the bills, most of his auto payby now. But you know, we both
just know what's there. Andyeah, he takes care of most of
that.
Rohini Ross (47:47):
That's great.
Angus Ross (47:50):
That's just me, isn't it? What was the biggest
misunderstanding you woke upfrom in your relationship?
Amy Johnson (48:01):
I think I think around that bingo card and
around the activities, you know,again, when it just looked like
a good relationship looked acertain way, it looked like you
have these things in common youspend time This way you do all
these things. And it was almostit was gonna be a losing battle.
(48:23):
Right? But, but kind of saying,oh, wait a minute, what if it's
none of that? What if we canstill have a great relationship,
even when we're super busy, andwe haven't really talked in a
day or two? And, you know,because it's deeper than all of
that surface stuff. So I think,you know, to borrow what you
guys talk about knowing thatthat love is there. And and
(48:45):
whether we're feeling it or not,in a given moment, kind of isn't
even all that important. Thatsounds weird to say, but it's
not. It's like, you know, and Ican remember, I'm sure many
couples have this where, earlyon when, you know, maybe six
months in when we kind of hitthat point in early dating,
where we sort of knew we were inthis, you know, like, where
every fight wasn't going to be abreakup, we were kind of like,
(49:06):
okay, like, we're doing thistogether. So now it's a whole
new level, we're just going towork it out. And that's more and
more, that's obviously now butyou know, more and more, that's
how it feels like none of thissurface stuff matters that much.
And that's just such a such agift.
Rohini Ross (49:22):
Yeah, that's so freeing, and takes so much
pressure off. We talked aboutthat a lot. Like when everything
looks like it's gonna be the endof the relationship is constant
stress. And when it's just like,Oh, yeah, this is all just
normal part of being human.
There's just such a relief andbeing able to go, we'll work it
out. Even if right now. I'm notfeeling the love. It's okay.
Amy Johnson (49:44):
And now it's not about the end of the
relationship, because we knowthat's not gonna happen, but
it's about the connection, likeknowing the love and the
connection is there, even whenwe aren't feeling it? And every
moment it's Yeah, it's huge.
Rohini Ross (49:56):
Yeah. What's one of the favorite things you're
partner does for you.
Amy Johnson (50:02):
He does so much for me. He, um, he's, he does a lot
for me, what's one of myfavorite things? I mean, he,
he's constantly listening for. Idon't give him enough credit for
this, I'm gonna go thank him forthis after this call, and how
did you ask this question, itcomes up and he's constantly
listening for like little thingshe can do, you know, because he
(50:25):
knows, I work a lot, you know,you know, he, he gets it, he
cares so much about this workthat I do. Even though he's not
in this conversation a lot. Hehas such a respect for the fact
that what I do helps people andhe contributes, he contributes
to that so much. And he I thinkhe takes a lot of pride in that.
(50:45):
So he knows that when I can godo an event somewhere, to be
able to do that, and know thatthe kids are fine, and the house
is fine. Everything's taken careof. That's the only way I'd be
able to do that. You know, sohe, I think he really feels like
he plays a role and all of this.
And he absolutely does, heshould feel that way. So I just
think that's really sweet. It'snot like Amy and her career. And
(51:05):
then me and my thing. I mean, hesees this as a partnership, even
though it doesn't look like onefrom the outside and the
traditional ways, and that'sgreat.
Angus Ross (51:16):
Oh, yeah, we're doing this exercise might put me
in a situation where the bar isbeing significantly raised.
Rohini Ross (51:25):
And I'm, I'm taking notes.
Angus Ross (51:27):
I'm worried
Rohini Ross (51:30):
I'm gonna get to spend even less time with you
now. Amy.
Angus Ross (51:34):
Okay, so what is the least favorite thing your
partner does?
Amy Johnson (51:40):
watches TV, obviously.
Angus Ross (51:43):
That's easy.
Rohini Ross (51:45):
And this, this might be a non issue, given what
you said. But just and again,you can take it lightly. But
what's one of your relationshipdeal breakers? And why?
Amy Johnson (51:57):
Yeah, I don't think we have any deal breakers. I
mean, you know, like, abusewould be or something like that,
perhaps, but we don't have anydeal breakers that really,
really even come up. You know, Ithink for both of us, the worst
thing that comes up is justfeeling not seen or heard. You
know, like, that's kind of aboutas bad as it kind of gets. And
(52:19):
that's not fun. But yeah, Idon't know, though. There are
any real deal breakers.
Angus Ross (52:26):
Okay, so how do you keep physical intimacy alive in
your relationship?
Amy Johnson (52:33):
Well, we, we noticed when it hasn't been
alive, and we just have to makethat effort, you know, and
really, there's a, this issomething he's amazing at two
is, he's opening up thedefinition for all what all of
that means, because it doesn'ttake much for either of us. But
it you know, it doesn't takemuch meaning like, he'll just
(52:55):
like, see me in the kitchen andcome give me a hug when we
haven't connected in a littlewhile. And that's all it takes.
That's all it takes to kind ofmelt the ice open the heart, you
know, and, and it's just thoselittle things that kind of kind
of need the consistent effort.
So he's much better at that thanI am. I will say that, but it's
just the little things here andthere that kind of feel help us
feel connected, not just likeparents or partners. Yeah.
Angus Ross (53:19):
Yeah, that's awesome.
Rohini Ross (53:21):
Yeah, that's so so key. So I have the final
question. If you could, if youcould only say one thing to your
partner. What would you want tosay to him?
Amy Johnson (53:32):
Making me so emotional, I want to like go
talk to him now. I think I mean,I think I would really just want
him to know how grateful I amfor him. Really like he, you
know, I love him. Of course,there's all that stuff. But I
(53:55):
just want him would want him toknow that I do see and feel and
know his heart where his heartscoming from even you know, even
when things are tough. I knowhe's always he always has that,
that. That loves that's whereit's all coming from the
goodwill is always there forhim. And it is for me too, but
(54:18):
it's really there for him. Iknow he cares so much. And yeah,
I'm just really grateful for allthe little things he does.
Rohini Ross (54:27):
It's beautiful. I love just feeling that level of
warmth and love that comesthrough you for him and what an
amazing partnership the two ofyou have.
Angus Ross (54:37):
Yeah, it does. It sounds spectacular.
Rohini Ross (54:42):
Well, thank you, Amy, for being our first guest
and for everything that you'veshared. We're really grateful.
And as we've mentioned, Amy hasan amazing book, The Little Book
of big change one of her books,but it's one of our favorites.
Her course the little school ofbig changes starting tomorrow.
First, Amy also has her podcastchangeable so that comes out
(55:05):
every week and it's reallyinsightful, informative,
inspiring, so highly recommendanything that Amy's up to. We're
big fans.
Angus Ross (55:15):
Yeah. Amy, thank you so much for getting us off to a
flying star.
Amy Johnson (55:19):
Thank you so much for having me. This is like such
a thrill. I can't believe I getto be on your podcast.
Rohini Ross (55:26):
Are you gonna listen to yourself?
Amy Johnson (55:27):
No. This will be the only episode I don't listen
to
Amy, thank you, Dr.
(00:00):
Amy Johnson.
Amy Johnson (00:04):
I know.
Rohini Ross (00:07):
Thank you so much for being our first podcast
guest quite...
Amy Johnson (00:11):
oh my gosh!
Rohini Ross (00:12):
honor for us.
Amy Johnson (00:13):
No, I am so honored. I I've been telling
people I know I've told you guysseveral times. I'm such a fan of
your podcast, I feel I wastelling someone, someone I work
with, who also was a huge fan ofyour podcast. She's like, Do you
listen to their podcast, and shehas a whole ritual around
listening to it at night whenshe's like doing her art. And
I'm like, I listened toeveryone. And I'm going to be on
(00:35):
it. We had this whole likelittle freakout, so I feel like
total fangirl. I love thepodcast, I was on the edge of my
seat, like what's gonna happenwith them. And I just love. I
love being able to be in thosesessions and then pop out and
have you guys talk about it. Ilove how you guys banter off
each other. And like, I'm sayingall all Angus`phrases like
(00:56):
everybody's batshit crazy. Andlike we're painting ourselves in
corners. All the little stuffalone.
Angus Ross (01:02):
Wow, that's so awesome.
Rohini Ross (01:04):
Thank you, And I had no idea. I mean, I know
because we've been talking aboutthis podcast for a long time. So
I knew you knew about it. But Ididn't know you're actually
listening to it. So that'samazing.
Amy Johnson (01:14):
I was really happy.
Because Yeah, so we've been Iheard a little bit bits and
pieces as it was comingtogether. So yeah, I feel like I
got a backstage pass to thewhole thing.
Rohini Ross (01:25):
So one of the things that we thought would be
great in terms of having guestspeakers on is for people to get
more of a sense of how broadthis understanding is, how
practical it is how it appliesto all different areas of life,
not just relationships in theway that we've been talking
about it. And so Angus and Iwould love for you to share more
(01:48):
about, you know, the ways thatyou work and share this
understanding with the peopleyou work with.
Amy Johnson (01:55):
Yeah, it's so interesting that it is all you
know, everything's arelationship, in a sense. And,
and, and so we haverelationships with what appear
to be other people, which areother people. But really, as you
guys explore, we're really inrelationship with our own
thinking about other people.
We're all obviously inrelationship with ourselves,
(02:16):
which really just means our ownthinking about ourselves or our
own thinking in a moment. And soyes, when I think about my work,
I mean it, it has largely, thenthen for people who are
struggling with habits oranxiety, although it is and it
isn't, you know, that's kind ofwhere people tend to be when
they first come to me, and wefirst start working together.
(02:38):
But then as that clears up, theyjust see so many other things
and you know, is you know, thenit's like all kinds of
relationships start changing. Soyeah, I primarily, I love to
work with people with habits andanxiety, because those are two
things, I struggled with myselffor a long time. From the lens
of, of seeing that we are habitfree, we are anxiety free, we
(03:03):
have everything we need, lifeisn't a problem, everything's
okay. And we see and experienceall of life through this
revolving kind of lens of ourown thoughts. You know, and, and
our thinking, by nature is veryhabitual, because, like thought
is creative, the power ofthought is fresh and new. But
(03:25):
we're humans, and it getsfiltered through a brain and our
brain spits it out in these veryhabitual ways, you know, so. So
as people start to see, okay,what I'm hearing and feeling and
seeing, it sure can feel likeit's the same old stuff over and
over again, and I can feel stuckin it. But I'm not that that's
just the show that's playing,you know, I'm, I'm something
(03:49):
bigger than this conversationthat's playing. That's where it
gets amazing. And there's justso much freedom you can feel
your way into.
Angus Ross (03:58):
I wanted to give you a big shout out for your book,
The Little Book of big change.
Because I think, you know, interms of what you've just said,
I think that this is apropos. Inthe work that I do at the
treatment center, I go in acouple of days a week, and for
the new residents that arrive intheir swag bag is the little
book of big change. So we Iguess, we try and sort of
(04:20):
actively encourage them to readthat, read your book. And for
those that do they are alwaysheavily impacted by it. But I
just love the fact that for me,because your book is such a big
and important backdrop to theirexperience, and the way that I
teach and work with them. Thatbook is always very, it's ever
(04:42):
present, you know, what thatbook is pointing to is always
ever present. And I feel likewhat I do there and what I learn
there from my interactions withthose guys and talking about
your book really informs how Ikind of show up and do the work
that Rohini and I do in therelationship arena. It's amazing
how we're all kind of pointingin the same direction. And it is
(05:05):
so universal. And it feels likethis understanding, it doesn't
really matter what you're doing.
We're all having kind of thesame conversation. So I'm in a
similar, I'm having thatconversation with the people in
treatment, I'm having that sameconversation, the people that
we're working with onrelationship, and I just love
that I love that element to thiswork. But I also wanted just to
(05:27):
say how that book is just reallyimpacted me and continues to
impact so many people on aweekly basis, certainly at that
treatment center.
Amy Johnson (05:35):
Thank you.
Rohini Ross (05:36):
Yeah, definitely check that out, Little book a
Angus Ross (05:36):
Yeah, big change. And we'll include
that in the show notes. There'ssomething that you said, Amy,
that I would love for you tojust say a little bit more about
in terms of how we are all habitfree. How I can't remember all
of what you said. But it's like,there really isn't a problem.
And I think that I hear thetruth in that. But I can imagine
(05:58):
some people might be like, what,what is she talking about? So
I'd love for you to share moreabout what you mean by that.
Amy Johnson (06:07):
Yeah, it's, you know, I think exploring this
kind of distinction that most ofus don't really explore, and
actually, between ourexperience, like what we think
feel, see, smell, taste all ofit, like the human experience,
what the reality we're in whatwhat's going on for us in any
(06:30):
given moment, that is alwayschanging. It's, you know, it
comes from thought it's informedby our senses. It's this big,
psychological, physiologicalkind of mishmash of energy
moving through us. And that'swhat, that's what we get to live
in. You know, it's pretty greatwhen we see it that way. But,
(06:53):
um, but I know for me, I thinkfor most people, like that was
the end of the road forever. Itwas like, Okay, well, this is
life, you know, I'm feelingthis, I'm thinking that I can
try to alter my thoughts orfeelings, but life's just given
me life. And this is this is asfar as it goes. And and what
this understanding is reallykind of opened up or has the can
(07:16):
open us up to is like, no,there's a whole world beyond
experience. So what we thinkfeel, do say all of that is
constantly changing. And in thedistinctions between what's
always changing, so what we'reexperiencing and what never
changes, what never changes is alot harder to send sometimes
(07:37):
because it's invisible. It's notin our faces it has it doesn't
have us getting in trouble orwrecking our health or wrecking
our relationships or finances,like our visible stuff does, you
know, but but to just even startwith that, that little opening
of like, wow, like, there's awhole What if there's a whole
other world beyond how thingsappear? What is there, what's
(07:59):
the backdrop behind all of thisstuff that just moves through us
all day, every day, when peoplestart to explore that, as you
know, you know, like, it's just,it's vague. And it's like, I
don't know. And it's kind ofweird at first, and then it's
not so vague, and then we get afeel for it. And then we can get
really familiar with it. Andthat's amazing. And that's when
(08:20):
the scales start to tip a littlebit where we're still human
beings having all the thoughtsand feelings that we have. But
there's a bit of space betweenus and all of that. And it's
more like we're just words, butit's almost like we're resting
more in who we truly are. Andall the other stuff is going by,
like when you guys talked aboutletting the train go by, you
(08:40):
know, the train just goes by,and we're here on the station
looking around saying, Wow,there's a whole world out here.
I didn't have to jump on thattrain.
Rohini Ross (08:53):
I thought you're gonna jump in.
Angus Ross (08:55):
I was, I was just somewhat loving the fact that
Amy Johnson is quoting, quotingsomething that I said, I'm
choosing not to hop on a train,I was just sort of enjoying that
moment.
Amy Johnson (09:10):
I'm trying to hold back.
Rohini Ross (09:14):
We can just fan out on each other here It sounds
like. And that the way that youjust spoke to that so
beautifully, Amy, that shift inidentification, I think is so
powerful, where we tend toidentify with what's tangible,
what we see is you're sayingwhat's constantly changing,
(09:36):
whether that be our thoughtswith that beer feelings, whether
it be our behaviors, but as welook in the direction of what's
beyond that, we might say theintelligence behind life like
what's that formless energy?
what's that energy that drivesthe rewilding and the metaphor
that we use? We start toidentify less with what's
tangible and more with our truenature, who we are beyond that,
(10:01):
and it doesn't limit us, fromembracing what changes and being
present to it and enjoying it,this isn't about transcending
the human experience it's about.
For me anyway, when I identifymore with what doesn't change, I
actually get to enjoy myhumaneness more and get to feel
(10:24):
more and tend to make betterchoices. Well...
Amy Johnson (10:28):
Yeah, it's like, it's like watching that action
thriller movie, knowing you'rewatching a movie, you get to get
fully into it. If that was youbeing chased by the bad guy,
you'd be in a very differentplace. But it's not we're just
eating our popcorn and watchingit. And, and, yeah, I agree, I
think there's such a sweet spotthere. And, and it can feel at
(10:49):
first like, Oh, I'm not I'll bedetached from my life, or you
know, all the concerns peoplehave. But I think like you said,
it's just the opposite.
Rohini Ross (11:00):
Yeah, that's it's beautiful way to just dip in
more deeply, and realize whatelse is there when we when we
look in that direction. And Iknow you have your school coming
up the Little School of BigChange to go along with your
book, The Little Book of bigchange. And that's, I've heard
so many people that haveparticipated in your program,
(11:23):
and experienced such profoundshifts in terms of greater
freedom, from habits thatthey've been troubled with. And
so I think it would be reallygreat to hear more about how you
see that supporting people inmaking those kind of shifts in
their life. Because initially,we're saying, well, your habit
free, but it does take some kindof effort, in a sense to see
(11:48):
that your habit free, like wecan wake up to that in a moment.
But often, the conditioning isvery strong. And so I think what
the container that you'vecreated with the school is
really helpful for help helpingpeople wake up to that. So love
to hear more.
Amy Johnson (12:02):
Yeah, I think, I mean, I think what you said is
right on, it's like, firstopening up to like, Hey, we are
habit free, we have everythingwe need, this is our essence.
And we don't experience that alot of the time because like you
said, the conditioning is sostrong, like from the from the
time we're tiny, we are pointedoutward, I mean, even the fact
(12:25):
that our eyes look out at theworld and bring it back to our
brains as if, you know, is ifit's all out there coming in at
us. So there's a lifetimeliterally for all of us a
lifetime of conditioning thatwe're we're dealing with and and
that's why I love this containerof you know, a group of people
(12:45):
from all over the world, all ofus just stepping step by step
together in it with curiosity,with like, what if all in
everything I do in the schoolcenters around these? what if
questions like I don't, I don'tknow how life works? For sure. I
don't want to tell anyoneanything. But what if this is
true? What if you actually arehealthy right now? And what if
(13:08):
this moving, changing, habitual,but moving and changing
experience isn't you and itisn't personal. And you don't
have to get so wrapped up in it.
And so, you know, we just kindof step through this exploration
as a group. And it always blowsme away how much people see from
each other, you know, and I knowyou guys run groups, and you see
(13:29):
this all the time to that itmakes our job so much easier. To
that it's like, Wow, look at allyour peers, like people just
open up, they're so vulnerableand honest, and, and what that
does for everyone around them,because we're really all the
same person. If we really wereall so different as we think we
are in our heads. A group likethe like ours wouldn't work so
(13:51):
well together. But given thatwe're pretty much exactly the
same except the surface leveldetails which aren't that
important anyway, we seeourselves and everyone else,
even when our circumstances areso different. You know, someone
comes in with an eatingdisorder. And and I'm working
with someone with depression andthe person with the eating
disorder sees their healththrough that conversation. So
(14:13):
it's so beautiful that it's notabout the details and the
specifics, we get down to theuniversal part of life and
that's where there's just somuch power.
Angus Ross (14:26):
Yeah, I think that what I've been noticing in the
group and we had a conversationthis morning and our group is
that people you know, the rain,he reminded me of something that
I feel like I've been seeing alot lately, which, you know, 10
years ago, I would have beenhorrified to think that I would
even say this you know, take meoutside shoot me if you heard me
saying this. But now I very muchembrace this, this this idea
(14:50):
that we are we are a spiritualbeing having a human experience.
And and lately I've been sayingthat a lot, but I have now
realized that what I've beensaying is that we're spiritual
beings, having a humanexperience that in somehow we're
still kind of these individualsin our, in our spirituality. And
I'm glad that I caught myselfdoing this this weekend, because
(15:14):
we are a spiritual being havingthis human experience. And in
that spiritual being, it's avery level playing field, it's
universal. And I think that'skind of like, at some point in
the conversation, often, I feellike within the group, we
realize that and there's thisbeautiful space that kind of
unfolds, where everybody dropsin and gets quiet. And it's just
(15:37):
a really beautiful feeling thatcomes out of that. And that
happened this morning in our inour community. And I think there
is something in that that sortof universal quality of that
space, that that people dropinto by just having this
conversation and looking in thatdirection. It's really quite
magical.
Amy Johnson (15:56):
Isn't it's so against, again, all that
conditioning and everythingwe've been told about fixing our
problems? And no, this is a realthing, therefore, I need to work
on it. Like, yes, if you're inan addiction, or anxiety or a
marriage that's going not well,it's a real thing. But
Therefore, I need to talk aboutit and look at it and fix it and
(16:18):
work on it all the time. Likethat piece is a little off, you
know, so it's like, hey, there'ssomething to see here. But when
we see that, yes, that's thethat's the, the psychological
piece of it. Just beneath thatalways there is that shared, and
that's, you know, it's like youguys said, like, love can always
be rewild. It's always there allthe time.
Angus Ross (16:40):
And I think there's a there's a relief in that isn't
that when suddenly peoplerealize, oh, like I've been,
I've been sticking to thisnarrative for so long. And yet,
actually is not real. That's notwho I am. There's something far
greater at stake here. And weall kind of getting a sense of
that. I think that those arethose moments that are so
beautiful.
Amy Johnson (16:58):
Yeah.
Rohini Ross (17:01):
I also really appreciate what you're saying,
Amy, about the power of groupand the power of looking in a
direction together that we seethat all the time in our welding
community. And that example ofhow someone that has what on the
surface looks like a completelydifferent issue, you know,
eating disorder versusdepression, how the same
(17:23):
understanding can have an impactand help wake them up from the
same, you know, from theconditioning, even though the
content of the conditioningmight be different. And the
behavior in the way that itshows up, looks different. It's
the the same understanding thathas the power to help make those
shifts. And when we often whenwe're not being worked with, you
(17:49):
know, when we're hearing someoneelse be given feedback, or we're
hearing someone else share theirinsight, when we have an open
mind, because we're not thinkingabout our problem. That's so
often when we get to hearsomething fresh and new, that
arises within ourselves, becausewe're not focused on what's
wrong with my marriage, orwhat's wrong with my behavior.
(18:10):
Why is it this way? We're justgenuinely curious, genuinely
open minded. And then bam, weget hit. And it's so powerful.
Amy Johnson (18:19):
Yeah, it kind of, you know, makes you think,
whenever something feels reallysticky, or we just can't see
around it there. It's alwaysbecause it's about us in our own
heads, you know, our mind hasmade it about us, or it just
looks so personal. And so that'swhy I think like you're saying,
Yes, when we're just listeningto someone else, has nothing to
do with us. So we just get tohear it in such a different way.
Rohini Ross (18:45):
And so I just want to let everyone know, Amy does
have a school that's going to bestarting up. What's the date
that it starts up? Amy?
Amy Johnson (18:52):
It starts Monday, March 1, and yeah, enrollments
open through that week. So we,
Rohini Ross (18:58):
yeah. Okay, great.
Well, and we will be acceptingenrollment on March 1. I know
this is going to air on thefirst so people can still sign
up.
Amy Johnson (19:05):
Yeah, through the fourth through March 4. Okay,
Rohini Ross (19:07):
great. So we'll include all of that information
in the show notes. I can'trecommend Amy's program more.
It's just I've again heardfirsthand, not just from Amy,
her experiences. I've heardthose two about the wonderful
transformations. But I've heardfrom many of her participants as
well, because our communitiesoften blend, which is really
cool. They'll be talking aboutwhat they're learning with you,
(19:28):
Amy, and they're sharing it inour community. And so, yeah, if
it's something that interestsyou, we'll include the link in
the show notes and you can gocheck it out. So, Amy, let's
talk a little bit morespecifically about relationship.
Are you okay with that? Yeah. SoI'd love to hear for yourself
(19:49):
when you're married. Correct.
And how long have you beenmarried for?
Amy Johnson (19:53):
It'll be 15 years this year.
Rohini Ross (19:56):
So quite a while.
So I'm wondering, I know forAngus and I there was a big
shift in our relationship preunderstanding versus post
understanding. And I would saythat we might have been on the
remedial end and therelationship areas. So that was
a big shift. I guess you'relaughing? Do you not think we
were remedial? Well, absolutely.
Angus Ross (20:17):
Yeah. I think the relationship was quickly heading
towards a cliff face. For aboutto fall off a cliff. Should I
say?
Rohini Ross (20:25):
Yeah, so I want to acknowledge that not everybody
has that kind of experience,where it's like the the
understanding tends to go towhere it's needed most. And for
us, it was really needed in theera of our relationship and made
a pretty dramatic impact on us.
So that may or may not be thecase for you. But I'm just
curious, we're curious to know,if you did notice a shift or how
it's, it's supported you in yourlife in terms of your
(20:48):
relationship with your husbandand your relationship with your
kids or anyone else.
Amy Johnson (20:54):
Yeah, I think I was probably pretty remedial, I
think he was doing okay. But Iwas definitely, especially in
the early years, one of thosepeople that was always in the
name of like, I'm gonna makesure we get this right. I was
always kind of predictingpitfalls, noticing things that
(21:16):
weren't really problems, butcould be that we needed to hash
out before they became problems.
So there was a lot of that kindof stuff happening where my poor
husband was like, is thisfinished, like, really, this is
a problem. He's like, I don'tknow, I don't feel it as a
problem. And I could, you know,in a good example, as I, I
remember, really, before we gotright before we got married,
(21:38):
really having a little bit of acold feet thinking about. So
funny to even go back there andthink about this now. But
thinking about like us, when wewere we have a 10 year age
difference. So I would imagineus at 60 and 70, wanting to do
completely different things.
Now, mind you, we were like 20and 30. But it was clear that it
(22:00):
was so obvious where we wereheaded, you know, 30 years into
the future. Because you know, asmost couples, we have some
different preferences, I'm alittle more active, he's a
little more relaxed. Like wekind of have a you know, we have
our our differences, whichhaven't changed, they haven't
changed at all. But they used tolook in my mind like such a
(22:22):
problem. And if not, Now, again,this is where my mind was always
10 steps ahead. If not today,like sure we're okay now, but
there's no way this is going tobe great. 30 years from now.
And, and you know, like, like,it just sounds crazy to say that
a little bit. Now, nut nut, youknow, it's a normal thing I'm
sure that a mind would do. ButI'm so much under that umbrella
(22:45):
of my mind looking ahead andpredicting and doing all that
has just changed so much. Andyeah, now it just even even if
we're in a place where we wanttotally different things like
like activity wise, you know,like, I do want to do something
and he doesn't or whatever, likethose differences, for sure come
(23:07):
up quite a bit. They just don'tlook meaningful. And it kind of
surprises me to look back andthink that I thought that was so
important. Like if we didn'twant to go on a hike together,
that was going to meansomething, you know, and now
it's like, oh my gosh, like, itdoesn't just doesn't matter. So
there's just so much on thesurface, all the thinking about
it. And the meaning especially,has just melted away. And and
(23:32):
then so when differences do showup, they just don't look at all
like I like I think they used to
Angus Ross (23:38):
this, this is a stupid analogy that comes up
because I feel like for sure,I'm sure so many people think
along these lines. But it's kindof like I don't know, I don't
know if I've ever done bingo,but I know people who have and
talks about it. It's almost likeyou got to like, let the numbers
line up. And I feel like with mywith our relationship, I was
always looking, the numbers haveto really line up and then all
(24:00):
of a sudden, now they're notlining up, that really means
something we're doomed tofailure. And then I can predict
into the future is like, yeah,the numbers are not looking
good. It's not gonna like I'mnot going to be able to yell out
bingo at any point in the nearfuture. Kind of makes me feel
like that.
Amy Johnson (24:17):
That's a good analogy. Yeah, yeah. I mean, and
it can look so serious whenyou're in it. You know, when all
your whole relationship lookslike that bingo board. It
matters, you know, and it's kindof like we like we were saying
earlier in the conversation, butwhen we get to back up a little
bit, and see, well, that's justa bingo board. There's a whole
other life a whole other way toconnect beyond that.
Angus Ross (24:41):
Yeah. Yeah, the bingo board in itself is just
playing the game. That'sbeautiful as it is.
Rohini Ross (24:47):
Yeah, if.. I'm trying to play with that
metaphor a bit, but if you'renot attached to getting bingo,
then all of the numbers on thatboard can be really fun. Doesn't
matter how they line up. And Ithink that's one of the things
that we hear a lot, andespecially even over a four day
intensive that we do with acouple, the shifts that can
(25:09):
happen between how they see eachother on that first meeting,
when we sit with them to wherethey're at, when we leave it,
when they leave, it's it's likethat shift, and it's the same
person. Right? Like you and yourhusband, you're the same people,
but yet, it can look sodifferently, just because the
(25:30):
difference that happens when westop making that meaning up, or
we're just open to differentmeanings, I mean, we're always
going to be making a meaning,but to see that the one meaning
that we've been making up allalong, doesn't have to be the
only meaning someone shared withme recently. And it was really
profound how it was kind of likeyour What if question, Amy,
(25:54):
like, what if my partner hasloved me all along. And that
flipped everything for them. AndI just thought that was so
beautiful, because that was notthe assumption that they were
operating from, they wereoperating from the assumption,
my partner doesn't love me. Andlife looks one way when that's
the assumption, but it's like,well, what if my partner loves
(26:17):
me, and then a whole differentworld gets created from that?
Amy Johnson (26:21):
That's, that's amazing. It does. I mean,
everything follows from whateverwe're starting with, our brain
just finds evidence for wheneverwe expect, you know, I'd see a
lot of that too. And so thatkind of is, you know, I was, I
see a lot of great relationshipsbefore mine, you know, and so I
just kind of anticipatedproblems, because that's what I
(26:44):
was familiar with his problemsand, and there was a lot of
filling in the blanks, and whatare our problems going to be,
because we're definitely goingto have them and, you know, and
I think there's some truth tothat, but I, I was holding
problems is like a really deep,meaningful, serious thing that
how they look now. So much abouthaving a sense of this
(27:05):
understanding is so like, itjust keeps our thoughts. So
fluid, and I think allows us tojust have insights, so
naturally, so in thought thatotherwise would be kind of
invisible, gets to be morevisible. So I, I recognize two,
I had a whole thing about myhusband, it would drive me crazy
(27:26):
when he would spend a lot oftime watching TV. And he would,
and he does, he still does anddoesn't change. But he you know,
he's a super chill guy, he justlikes to relax, a lot like Angus
is just like laid back, justkind of, you know, but he likes
his downtime, and I'm not likethat. So much. And, and I
(27:48):
recognized that I had so muchthinking about it early, early
on that, um, I would see himdoing certain things, and my
mind would fill in the blanks toagain, see him turning into his
dad, or like, turning into hisparents and I and it would just
complete this whole story thatwas so fabricated, and it's kind
(28:09):
of like, kind of what you'resaying about that? What if, you
know, I just, it was anunexamined belief I had, I
didn't even know I had it. Andas I just kind of get out of my
head in general, a little bitmore a lot of this stuff. Now
when it shows up, it's hard toexplain, but you know, I like
it, it kind of pops out like oh,that's what I was thinking, you
(28:30):
know, so there's been so so manyof those assumptions. And, you
know, it's still sort ofhabitually drives me nuts
sometimes when the TV'sconstantly on, but, but I see
it, like, I know where my mind'sfilling in a story. And then it
comes back to here and it's likein this moment, is the TV a
problem? Now, what would be aproblem? Isn't my husband
(28:52):
becoming his dad and all thisother story, but that's not
happening. What's happening ishe's had the TV on all day.
Angus Ross (29:42):
I love what Amy was saying about the fluid nature of
thought there's something for meto sort of, that's a growing
edge for me there. I feel likethere's an insight in the
making, to look in thatdirection. I feel like so much
of what I do is informed by youknow, the little book of big
change in terms of the way thatI see how your pointing to the
biology behind thought thebiology behind habit. I think
(30:04):
that's such an excitingreference point to begin this
conversation. And what you'resaying about the fluid nature of
thought is that I often talkabout when I do groups, I talk
about the biology of thought,and I talked about it being kind
of like, the screenwritingsoftware of our lives is how we
constantly kind of creatingnarratives. And it's interesting
(30:27):
to consider it on those terms islike, Am I gonna, like follow
the narrative, or are actuallygoing to follow the fluid nature
of thought, and the fluid natureof thought very much, is
encouraging me to look in thedirection of my intuition and
that intelligence. And that is awhole different way of showing
up that there's just toconstantly rely on the old
(30:47):
habitual thinking. So I justlove that idea, the fluid nature
of thought, and you Rohini, weretalking about the weekend,
something about the neuroplasticity of the brain, in a
sense is like, yeah, it'sconstantly changing. And we can
really celebrate thatpossibility rather than get so
stuck in our ways. Because weare creatures of habit, in a
(31:10):
sense, we're designed to becreatures of habit, you looked
at our biology, it's set up forus to be creatures of habit. But
understanding that really allowsus to sort of start to to have a
different human experiencethat's not based on water under
the bridge that's based on Yeah,let's live in the moment, let's
do life in the moment, ratherthan you know, what happened
(31:31):
yesterday or last week and bekind of gripped by that.
Amy Johnson (31:37):
And I think to seeing that, our patterns, and
those habitual places our mindgoes, they're not again, they're
not personal. I know, peoplesometimes have a hard time with
that, because it feels likethey're personal. And they're
coming from our childhood orwherever they're coming from.
But But yeah, that's just thebiology of it. That's just how
the machine works. So, you know,I got so much out of listening
(31:59):
to your podcast, just justseeing things. And from my own
relationship around theirdynamic and hearing a little bit
about your dynamic, and youknow, like, Alicia was very
volatile. And you guys said,Rohini, can be volatile. And
then there's this whole thing,there's a reaction to that. And
you know, and that's like, whatpeople feel like they get caught
(32:21):
up in. And me too, at times,like for us, we both had a lot
of volatility in our families.
So we both go the other way.
Now. So we have this tendencywhen when our thinking is out of
whack, to just both go inwardand shut down. And we can just
be ships passing in the nightfor a while until we wake up and
say, Hey, we haven't talked in awhile. We're both very happy,
(32:42):
just being introverts and nottalking that much. But yeah, it
has its things and, and for along time to that looked like,
wow, there's something in thatpsychological pattern. That
means we're not going to worktogether, we're not good
together, we need to fix it, weneed to get to the bottom of it.
And now it just looks a lot morelike it's not me, it's not him.
(33:07):
It's the culmination of all thisstuff, and our, our sweet little
minds trying to help us andprotect us and saying, We don't
like yelling, so let's just bequiet, and then our minds take
it too far. And then we justwake up to it when we wake up to
it. But you know, it justdoesn't just doesn't mean
anything about Amy and Ora as acouple together. And that is
(33:28):
huge. It's huge, because thepattern still happens sometimes.
But the bounce back is quicker.
And the meaning is not so much.
Rohini Ross (33:37):
Yeah, there's such freedom in that, as you're, as
you're talking about it I was itoccurred to me to have this
thought like, Oh, yeah, myoperating principle was, you
know, when Angus abandons me,that was the premise that I
would work from, like, when heabandons me, this is how I need
to take care of myself andabandoning me could mean leaving
(34:00):
me or it could mean dying. Or itcould mean being mean to me,
like it was just like this wholerange of when Angus abandons me
and that would be what I wasconstantly trying to protect
myself from the way that you'redescribing, like, Oh, you don't
want to have conflict. So you gointo the the quiet mode, and
it's like, oh, wow, that's sohelpful to see that. And see,
(34:24):
like you said, Your sweet littlemind like, that's just what our
brain is trying to help us within terms of our survival. And
that when we can see it for whatit is, we have perspective on
it, and even if we still do thethings that we do in terms of
the self protection or evenstill create that meaning,
(34:45):
having perspective on it is sucha game changer because I always
used to think that well, it'snot about having perspective.
This has to be got rid of like Ihave to stop having this
operating principle or I have toyou know, never think that those
thoughts again, but what I seenow, which is such a relief, is
that one losing perspective isokay, because it can come back.
(35:08):
And that too, when I haveperspective, even if I'm
engaging in a behavior, creatingmeaning that isn't really
serving me in the moment is ablast from the past. In a sense,
it takes the pressure off. Yeah.
Amy Johnson (35:24):
Yeah, I love that just just knowing we have we
fall into these, these littlepatterns and habits, but the
perspective on it is huge. And Ireally appreciate that. A can
see how, sometimes for somecouples, this the psychology,
like the patterns, even withperspective, right, it's just
(35:48):
gets to be too much. Sometimespeople just say, Hey, is this
this doesn't work, you know, butI, I don't know, there's a whole
whole level of kind of relief orfreedom or something that comes
from this understanding thateven then that's okay. Like,
even, you know, even if it if arelationship doesn't work out
the way we intended it to, weonly intended that with our
(36:10):
minds anyway, like, we make upthese rules, right about how
it's supposed to look. So it'slike, that's not you know,
typically when any marriedcouple wants, but it's just so
nice to kind of see, hey,sometimes our psychology is
really strong, and people moveon and even then, because again,
my my parents divorce was not afriendly one, like, it can be a
friendly separation for peopleat times, if it comes to that.
Rohini Ross (36:33):
Yeah, absolutely.
Angus Ross (36:36):
So much of it is, it's thinking about state of
mind, you know, going back tothat to what you were sort of
highlighting or low lighting, asthe case may be in terms of
marriage. For me, it was like,Oh, I will get into this sort of
pattern of thinking around,they're not going to be enough
bingo moments. And I need toreally teach her how to play
(37:01):
bingo, this marriage is gonnawork properly. And for me,
that's just that just surfaceswhen I'm in a low mood when I'm
in a low state of mind, I'mprojecting all all over you in
that respect. But it's alsoworth considering that you know,
that a lot of those narrativeswere born out of me having a low
mood, per se. So if I startreally getting hip to my state
(37:21):
of mind and look at it from thatvantage point, then yeah, why
would I start taking my thinkingnearly that nearly so seriously,
or, or in a better way, thatbecomes an indicator to me that
my thinking has gone south, ormy state of mind has gone self
best, best not to engage at thispoint, or the very least, you
know, you know, that will bewhere I can start to get
(37:43):
neutral.
Amy Johnson (37:45):
Yeah, yeah. When Rohinis nails bother you, we
know.
Angus Ross (37:51):
That's my best.
That's my best.
Amy Johnson (37:53):
Now it seems like Im stalking, you guys or
something
Rohini Ross (37:57):
I think you probably knew knew that already
gave me the same for fulldisclosure because, Amy, you
know, we've known Amy for a longtime. And when we started to
hear how similar some of thedynamics are in your
relationship, and kind of likehow I'm a doer, and I like
getting things done. And, youknow, rasdhoo needs that. Not
not that I don't think rest is agood thing. But Angus is a lot
(38:19):
more, you know, mellow likes totake things at a different pace.
He's like, I don't know if youshould be spending hanging out
with Amy.
Angus Ross (38:28):
I know. When I when I've run out of wiggle room to
blame Rohini for all my woes Ican I can always then turn to
Amy because he's like you'relearning it from her?
Amy Johnson (38:42):
Well, I'm glad my husband doesn't know you guys
cuz it would probably be thesame thing. Like no more
Rohinis time
Rohini Ross (38:52):
And we all know, Anguss sacred Sunday.
Angus Ross (38:55):
I know that's been that's been violated in no
uncertain terms of late.
Rohini Ross (39:02):
Anyway, but I do I have I have a greater respect
for taking it easy and restbecause of you, Angus. So I
think we balance each other out.
Angus Ross (39:11):
And I've learned I've I've learned to work a
little harder to you will findsome no I should I say find some
inner resilience better. Findsome inner resilience that I
ever like, tapped into that Ididn't know was there because of
you. That's a good thing.
Rohini Ross (39:33):
Amy, we have some questions that we're going to be
asking all our guest speakersand they're just kind of like
improv. So whatever comes tomind, are you open to playing
with us in terms of thesequestions?
Angus Ross (39:44):
Yeah.
Rohini Ross (39:45):
All right. So Angus, you ready? Can I can I
start? Yeah. Okay, so the firstone is, what's one of your
fondest memories in yourrelationship?
Amy Johnson (39:57):
There's one image that I always go back to the
night before we got married. Hewe got married in Chicago, we
lived in Chicago at the time,and he was staying in the hotel
where our guests were staying.
And it's just, it's not anythingeven that special. But you know,
(40:17):
just you asking that questionjust brings back this little
moment of just this little like,wave goodbye, knowing like,
tomorrow was a whole new wholenew start was gonna happen. And
our wedding was so nice. And,you know, I, I don't know, one
of the things I love too. Sorry,I won't go into this too much.
But, um, that I just, itresonates so much about your
(40:39):
rewilding concept and just bringin this in that literally, like,
you can ask that question. And Ican go back to almost 15 years
and just feel that if you knowif our experience isn't coming
from the inside out, I don'tknow how the heck that would
make sense. Cuz 15 years ago,you know, so just that a
question like that can like makeme all giddy? That's awesome.
Rohini Ross (41:02):
And then you were on zoom doing this. So we I know
it's just gonna be audio, butyou should see Amy's face when
that memory like it was just sobeautiful to see that fun is
lovely.
Angus Ross (41:12):
Yeah, that's so gorgeous. Thank you. Okay, well,
I get to ask the next question.
What is one of the funniestmemories in your relationship?
Amy Johnson (41:22):
Oh, gosh, there's been a lot of funny stuff with
our kids. Like since we've hadkids. Actually, one of the
funniest ones might have beenlast night like my husband is
six foot three, like 220 pounds.
He's like a big guy, right? Andmy kids are nine and 11. They're
kind of little and my son who'san iron is super into karate.
(41:44):
Thanks to Karate Kid. And nowCobra Kai, he's all into
fighting. So he always wants tospar and do all this stuff. And
I'm in my fight my big husbandhe asked my son Miller asked for
a fight just fight don't fighthard. Just fight the way one of
my friends which like we alwayskind of make fun of Miller's
(42:05):
friends are kind of funny. So hedoes this thing. I can't do it.
You won't see it on the on theaudio, but um, he does this
dance with the craziest face andhe's like coming at my son with
our all of his like, flailingall over the place. And we ended
up calling him we say Look, whenyou look like a giraffe who's
just been a tranquilizer. I wasliterally last night. There's a
(42:29):
lot of fun stuff. And I and Ilove. I love having kids. You
know, I mean, for both of usbring out our humor and
everything like
Rohini Ross (42:38):
yeah, it's funny when you're sharing that I love
I love that picture sounds likea perfect tic toc. It just I got
this memory of our kids onetime. I think we all had the
stomach flu. And they were bothI think one of them was like
maybe one and one of them wasthree. And we kind of slept
(42:59):
separately because they bothweren't well, and there was in
between the two bedrooms was thebathroom. And we ended up both
of us in the bathroom at thesame time with each child
throwing up. And we just burstout laughing because we were so
exhausted. We're either gonnacry, or we're gonna laugh and we
may have a laugh about it now.
But I know kids definitely giveus those memories. So a little
(43:22):
bit more serious than this. No,but you don't have to take it
seriously. It's like, what's oneof the most difficult times in
your relationship? And how didyou get through it?
Amy Johnson (43:34):
You know, I think honestly, like we we haven't had
a lot of really prolonged bighard times. But I do think
probably in recent years, youknow, when life was super busy,
or even now when life is alittle bit less busy, but we're
(43:54):
all under the same roof. 24seven, we haven't had a date
night and over a year. There'sjust little moments in the kids
who seem to be always around. Sothere's maybe an hour when the
kids go to bed before I fallasleep. Like, you know it, I
just have such a respect for howwe can can get tough and how we
(44:15):
can just fall fall into this.
Like, is it really worth theeffort? You know, like we both
are tired and busy andeverything else. And just and
just to see how how more oftenthan not, we kind of take that
nudge and say yeah, it's worththe effort, you know? And if
it's not right now, like Don'tworry, we don't have to make it
mean anything. We'll get back ontrack, you know, but I do think
Yeah, and these early years ofnot even little kids but for us,
(44:39):
I think maybe our kids beinglike kind of five to 10 range.
There's just whirlwind ofactivity and stuff and very easy
to kind of lose connection.
Rohini Ross (44:51):
And I acknowledge you especially during this time
of pandemic having young kidsthat that definitely shows your
grounding to navigate that
Angus Ross (45:02):
I don't know how well how well I would have done
in those under those conditionsor these conditions. Okay, so
next question. How do you dividedomestic labor in your
relationship?
Amy Johnson (45:17):
Well, my husband is primarily home with our kids and
taking care of the house. So andI'm primarily working a lot. So
it's kind of easy in that way,really, I mean, we sort of have
an agreement, it'd be a lotharder, I think, if we both
worked, and we had to navigatethat. That said, I like things
(45:39):
cleaner than he does. So eventhough I work all the time, you
know, by choice, I work a lot bychoice. And technically, the
home is kind of his thing. Thatdoesn't really stop me from kind
of making lists and saying, Hey,you know, I think this could be
a little cleaner. Why don't we?
Why don't we look over here thisweek, focus on this, when you
have some time this week. Wehave those conversations almost
(46:02):
every weekend. And sometimesthere's a little tension around
them. Although that is anotherarea that I really want to like
that I'm really proud of us, youknow, that we've, it's, it's not
easy for him to have me tell himwhat to do? No, no doubt about
it. And and I try my best and,you know, but yeah, sometimes
there's a little tension, a lotof times less and less. Now
(46:24):
there is a lot of times thereisn't. But even when there is
it's like we kind of give eachother that, look, we know what's
going on in each other's minds.
And there's tech in general,this kind of sense of like,
okay, yeah, we're a little onthe nerves right now. But just
go do our stuff. And we'll comeback together and it'll all blow
over.
Angus Ross (46:43):
I have this vision of you coming home from work and
walking around the house with aclipboard and doing quality
control.
Amy Johnson (46:52):
I have a white rag.
Angus Ross (46:56):
Yeah, white gloves?
No.
Rohini Ross (47:03):
Luckily, Angus likes things cleaner than I do.
So he tends to benefit fromthat. And so how are the
finances handled in yourrelationship?
Amy Johnson (47:15):
Well, it's interesting, when we first got
married, we kept thingsseparate. We, you know, I was
29. And he was 39, when we gotmarried. So we both had a little
bit of a history of havingseparate and there was no reason
to combine. But when ourdaughter was born three months
after our daughter was born, hequit working. So everything's
just obviously been all togethersince then. And it's pretty
(47:36):
simple. I mean, we that's neverbeen an issue for us. He pays
the bills, most of his auto payby now. But you know, we both
just know what's there. Andyeah, he takes care of most of
that.
Rohini Ross (47:47):
That's great.
Angus Ross (47:50):
That's just me, isn't it? What was the biggest
misunderstanding you woke upfrom in your relationship?
Amy Johnson (48:01):
I think I think around that bingo card and
around the activities, you know,again, when it just looked like
a good relationship looked acertain way, it looked like you
have these things in common youspend time This way you do all
these things. And it was almostit was gonna be a losing battle.
(48:23):
Right? But, but kind of saying,oh, wait a minute, what if it's
none of that? What if we canstill have a great relationship,
even when we're super busy, andwe haven't really talked in a
day or two? And, you know,because it's deeper than all of
that surface stuff. So I think,you know, to borrow what you
guys talk about knowing thatthat love is there. And and
(48:45):
whether we're feeling it or not,in a given moment, kind of isn't
even all that important. Thatsounds weird to say, but it's
not. It's like, you know, and Ican remember, I'm sure many
couples have this where, earlyon when, you know, maybe six
months in when we kind of hitthat point in early dating,
where we sort of knew we were inthis, you know, like, where
every fight wasn't going to be abreakup, we were kind of like,
(49:06):
okay, like, we're doing thistogether. So now it's a whole
new level, we're just going towork it out. And that's more and
more, that's obviously now butyou know, more and more, that's
how it feels like none of thissurface stuff matters that much.
And that's just such a such agift.
Rohini Ross (49:22):
Yeah, that's so freeing, and takes so much
pressure off. We talked aboutthat a lot. Like when everything
looks like it's gonna be the endof the relationship is constant
stress. And when it's just like,Oh, yeah, this is all just
normal part of being human.
There's just such a relief andbeing able to go, we'll work it
out. Even if right now. I'm notfeeling the love. It's okay.
Amy Johnson (49:44):
And now it's not about the end of the
relationship, because we knowthat's not gonna happen, but
it's about the connection, likeknowing the love and the
connection is there, even whenwe aren't feeling it? And every
moment it's Yeah, it's huge.
Rohini Ross (49:56):
Yeah. What's one of the favorite things you're
partner does for you.
Amy Johnson (50:02):
He does so much for me. He, um, he's, he does a lot
for me, what's one of myfavorite things? I mean, he,
he's constantly listening for. Idon't give him enough credit for
this, I'm gonna go thank him forthis after this call, and how
did you ask this question, itcomes up and he's constantly
listening for like little thingshe can do, you know, because he
(50:25):
knows, I work a lot, you know,you know, he, he gets it, he
cares so much about this workthat I do. Even though he's not
in this conversation a lot. Hehas such a respect for the fact
that what I do helps people andhe contributes, he contributes
to that so much. And he I thinkhe takes a lot of pride in that.
(50:45):
So he knows that when I can godo an event somewhere, to be
able to do that, and know thatthe kids are fine, and the house
is fine. Everything's taken careof. That's the only way I'd be
able to do that. You know, sohe, I think he really feels like
he plays a role and all of this.
And he absolutely does, heshould feel that way. So I just
think that's really sweet. It'snot like Amy and her career. And
(51:05):
then me and my thing. I mean, hesees this as a partnership, even
though it doesn't look like onefrom the outside and the
traditional ways, and that'sgreat.
Angus Ross (51:16):
Oh, yeah, we're doing this exercise might put me
in a situation where the bar isbeing significantly raised.
Rohini Ross (51:25):
And I'm, I'm taking notes.
Angus Ross (51:27):
I'm worried
Rohini Ross (51:30):
I'm gonna get to spend even less time with you
now. Amy.
Angus Ross (51:34):
Okay, so what is the least favorite thing your
partner does?
Amy Johnson (51:40):
watches TV, obviously.
Angus Ross (51:43):
That's easy.
Rohini Ross (51:45):
And this, this might be a non issue, given what
you said. But just and again,you can take it lightly. But
what's one of your relationshipdeal breakers? And why?
Amy Johnson (51:57):
Yeah, I don't think we have any deal breakers. I
mean, you know, like, abusewould be or something like that,
perhaps, but we don't have anydeal breakers that really,
really even come up. You know, Ithink for both of us, the worst
thing that comes up is justfeeling not seen or heard. You
know, like, that's kind of aboutas bad as it kind of gets. And
(52:19):
that's not fun. But yeah, Idon't know, though. There are
any real deal breakers.
Angus Ross (52:26):
Okay, so how do you keep physical intimacy alive in
your relationship?
Amy Johnson (52:33):
Well, we, we noticed when it hasn't been
alive, and we just have to makethat effort, you know, and
really, there's a, this issomething he's amazing at two
is, he's opening up thedefinition for all what all of
that means, because it doesn'ttake much for either of us. But
it you know, it doesn't takemuch meaning like, he'll just
(52:55):
like, see me in the kitchen andcome give me a hug when we
haven't connected in a littlewhile. And that's all it takes.
That's all it takes to kind ofmelt the ice open the heart, you
know, and, and it's just thoselittle things that kind of kind
of need the consistent effort.
So he's much better at that thanI am. I will say that, but it's
just the little things here andthere that kind of feel help us
feel connected, not just likeparents or partners. Yeah.
Angus Ross (53:19):
Yeah, that's awesome.
Rohini Ross (53:21):
Yeah, that's so so key. So I have the final
question. If you could, if youcould only say one thing to your
partner. What would you want tosay to him?
Amy Johnson (53:32):
Making me so emotional, I want to like go
talk to him now. I think I mean,I think I would really just want
him to know how grateful I amfor him. Really like he, you
know, I love him. Of course,there's all that stuff. But I
(53:55):
just want him would want him toknow that I do see and feel and
know his heart where his heartscoming from even you know, even
when things are tough. I knowhe's always he always has that,
that. That loves that's whereit's all coming from the
goodwill is always there forhim. And it is for me too, but
(54:18):
it's really there for him. Iknow he cares so much. And yeah,
I'm just really grateful for allthe little things he does.
Rohini Ross (54:27):
It's beautiful. I love just feeling that level of
warmth and love that comesthrough you for him and what an
amazing partnership the two ofyou have.
Angus Ross (54:37):
Yeah, it does. It sounds spectacular.
Rohini Ross (54:42):
Well, thank you, Amy, for being our first guest
and for everything that you'veshared. We're really grateful.
And as we've mentioned, Amy hasan amazing book, The Little Book
of big change one of her books,but it's one of our favorites.
Her course the little school ofbig changes starting tomorrow.
First, Amy also has her podcastchangeable so that comes out
(55:05):
every week and it's reallyinsightful, informative,
inspiring, so highly recommendanything that Amy's up to. We're
big fans.
Angus Ross (55:15):
Yeah. Amy, thank you so much for getting us off to a
flying star.
Amy Johnson (55:19):
Thank you so much for having me. This is like such
a thrill. I can't believe I getto be on your podcast.
Rohini Ross (55:26):
Are you gonna listen to yourself?
Amy Johnson (55:27):
No. This will be the only episode I don't listen
to
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