December 1, 2020 • 54 mins
Alicia has an insight about not taking things personally. Luckily, she already has examples in her life where she feels immune to what Mateo says to her, and seeing that she doesn’t always take what he says personally allows her to see her own role in her reactivity. Rohini helps guide Alicia toward the truth of where her experience is always coming from, that we can only ever feel our own thinking, not circumstances. Together they explore how not being impacted by someone else’s behavior is empowering, not passive.
Alicia begins to view her reactivity as a common denominator in other relationships as well, which helps her embrace the idea of waiting for a calm mind before responding to Mateo. The Rewilders teach the couple about how emotions move through us, so even though they are coming from within, they are not another thing to try and control. Instead, we can treat our feelings like the weather and ride them out.
This episode explores:
- The personal vs. the impersonal
- The power of not taking things personally
- How feelings act as a guide to our state of mind at any moment
- Behavior is a reflection of the other person’s state of mind, which has nothing to do with us
- Gaining compassion for our partner when they’re in a low mood
- The way to decrease volatility in relationships
- Connecting with our own inner peace regardless of our partner
- We experience what we are identifying with in our own mind, not circumstances
- Understanding our experiences come from within is liberating
- Emotions move through us like the weather, we can wait until we feel more settled to act
Podcast music: Rewilding Love features the music of RhythmPharm with Los Angeles based Master drummer, multi-instrumentalist, and composer Greg Ellis, born and raised in the Bay Area.
Ep. 4 includes selections from: Violet/Balance; Blue/Calm; Orange/Nourishment; Yellow/Clarity
Show notes
Cad and a bounder: Old fashioned, British phrase for saying a man is acting in an unkind, deceitful, or selfish way.
North American irony: Angus questions whether this exists.
Feedback: info@therewilders.org
Angus & Rohini Ross are “The Rewilders.” They love working with couples and helping them to reduce conflict and discord in their relationships. They co-facilitate individualized couples' intensives that rewild relationships back to their natural state of love. Rohini is the author of the ebook Marriage, and they are co-founders of The 29-Day Rewilding Experience and The Rewilding Community. You can also follow Angus and Rohini Ross on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram. To learn more about their work visit: TheRewilders.org.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Angus Ross (00:02):
Welcome to Rewilding Love. This season is with a
couple on the brink of divorce.
Rohini Ross (00:10):
This is episode number four. Not taking things
personally.
Mateo (00:15):
I may have just made the biggest mistake of my life.
Alicia (00:18):
in any given moment. His vibe just changes. It's like
boom, like you hate me all of asudden.
Angus Ross (00:22):
Feisty she is!
Alicia (00:24):
I don't understand where things went wrong. But I didn't
get married to get divorced.
Rohini Ross (00:29):
She's ultimately sensing that there's more going
on than meets the eye.
Mateo (00:33):
Is the juice worth the squeeze? You know, there's a lot
of squeezing, not getting muchjuice out of it.
Alicia (00:39):
I put in the work in the last two years of working out
four to six times a week to lookgood next to you like you're
welcome.
Angus Ross (00:46):
He only goes to the gym once a week. 52 times more
than me and a year.
Rohini Ross (00:51):
Each one of you is doing the absolute best you can
in each moment.
Alicia (00:56):
I would have never thought to think of it that
right.
Angus Ross (00:59):
Feelings!b Oh, you must use your feelings!
Rohini Ross (01:05):
We just can't control our thoughts. So because
we can't control our thoughts.
We can't control our feelings.
Angus Ross (01:11):
Boom! Nice going sister.
Rohini Ross (01:15):
Thank you!
Angus Ross (01:18):
You are listening to rewild in love with me. Angus
Ross,
Rohini Ross (01:22):
and me Rohini Ross
Angus Ross (01:24):
Rewilding Love. It's a podcast about relationships.
Rohini Ross (01:28):
We believe that love never disappears completely
in relationships. It can alwaysbe rewilded, listen in as we
guide a real couple back totheir natural state of love,
Angus Ross (01:39):
Relax, and enjoy the show.
Rohini Ross (01:49):
This week, we're going to be sharing some
excerpts from one of my sessionswith Alicia to show the benefits
of not taking things personally.
But Angus, I think before we getinto the session clips, it would
be really helpful for us to talkabout what we mean by not taking
things personally. Because wehave an expanded meaning on that
when you say
Angus Ross (02:12):
Yes, expanded meaning and I would say that
this is probably the mostdifficult nut of all for our
clients to swallow, in terms ofthe leverage that we're looking
for to get them to a place ofhealing.
Rohini Ross (02:28):
Well, the typical definition of somebody taking
something personally, is whenthey interpret someone's remarks
or actions, as directed againstthem when those remarks or
actions weren't intended to bedirected toward them. And they
get upset and offended by that.
But we actually take it one stepfurther than that. And our
(02:50):
definition, would say that wenever need to take someone's
words or behaviors personally,even if they are directed
towards us. Because whatevertheir behavior is, is always a
reflection of their state ofmind. And it's really nothing to
do with us, even if they aredirecting it toward us. Does
that make sense?
Angus Ross (03:12):
Does it make sense to me?
Rohini Ross (03:13):
Yes.
Angus Ross (03:14):
Or it is to the audience?
Rohini Ross (03:16):
I can't talk to the audience. Makes sense to you?
Angus Ross (03:19):
Yeah, no, it makes perfect sense to me. Yeah, it's
a, it's a radical change inoptics, it's seeing that in
actual fact, it's the otherperson who's suffering because
they're suffering from theirstate of mind, they got
themselves into a low mood, andthey're kind of really acting
out from that place. So if wecan really harness that
(03:39):
understanding, then in actualfact, that is our suffering,
because we're not taking itpersonally. And even actually
presents us with theopportunity, we might even
entertain some compassion forthat person. So I'm actually I
remember the other day that myeldest daughter got really mad
at me got really angry because Ididn't pick up the dog poo in
(03:59):
the garden. And I said that Iwas. And, and I could have taken
that really, personally at thetime, because she was pretty
mad. But I could see that she,for whatever reason, got herself
into a bit of a low mood. And ina sense, I was able to see the
innocence there. And I felt asense of compassion and I and
(04:20):
didn't go into that sort ofusual or typical pathway of
blame. I just let it go. So thatwould be an example of yet me
not taking it. Not meaning topat myself on the back too. too
hard, but me not taking itpersonally.
Rohini Ross (04:36):
Bravo!
Angus Ross (04:37):
Bravo to me.
Rohini Ross (04:41):
So this next clip that we're gonna play is
actually an example of Alicianot taking something personally.
And it's really demonstratinghow she has this capacity. And
so we're sharing it just as anexample of where she has
perspective where she can seethat what Mateo saying isn't
(05:01):
about her. So we'll hear fromher now.
Alicia (05:07):
He definitely is judged my body a lot before. And I
don't take offense to it,because I think I'm a mentally
strong person.
Rohini Ross (05:13):
Who choose not being in shape.
Alicia (05:16):
Yeah, or like looking at us both in the mirror and been
like, wow, we should really getin the gym and this and that.
And then now that I have been ingreat shape, I'm in great shape
now better than I've ever beenin my entire life, to be honest
with you very happy with my bodyand everything. And yes, there
are definitely places that I canimprove on, of course, I mean,
you can always do that. But thispast week, I had just gotten
(05:38):
back from spin class, and I wasgetting ready to get in the
shower. And he had just gone tohis trainer, he's only going
once a week of any workouts. Andthat's I know, smooth, it's been
bugging him because he keepssaying he wants to be like in
shape and a better diet, blah,blah, but then turns to me and
goes, you should consider goingon a personal trainer, you know,
you can be a little bit more fitor meeting say a little bit more
fit, but something along thoselines. And I just like, in my
(06:02):
head, I'm just like, are youserious right now?
Rohini Ross (06:04):
Mm hmm.
Alicia (06:05):
And the way that I approach it, I was like, yeah,
you know what I actually thoughtabout that, maybe? Would you be
interested in doing it with me?
And then that way we can cutdown the cost cuts like that can
be fun, at least like once aday. I don't take offense to
that stuff. Because I'm like,I'm just happy with what I look
like, I really don't care. Yeah.
And I've also put in the work inthe last two years of working
(06:27):
out, four to five, four to sixtimes a week. To look good next
to you like you're welcome.
Rohini Ross (06:33):
Yeah.
Angus Ross (06:35):
Wow, I, I do not know what I would do. If you
certainly took it upon yourselfto criticize some aspect of my
body and challenged my bodyimage in some way. I don't know
what I would do, I'd be veryupset.
Rohini Ross (06:50):
So you would take it personally,
Angus Ross (06:52):
I think I take it very personally. So, so good for
her kudos for her for actuallynot, not rising to the bait as
it were.
Rohini Ross (07:02):
Yeah, that is quite unique. I don't know that I
would be able to handle iteither.
Angus Ross (07:06):
No. And then, you know, she obviously has this
great sense of self in this onearea of her life. And then I
guess there are some frailtiesand other areas of you know, I
guess we get to look at and hearabout.
Rohini Ross (07:18):
I think that's true for all of us that we all have
these areas of our life where wesee things very clearly we have
perspective, we recognize it'snot personal, we recognize that
we're okay, and we're fine. Andthen we have these other areas
of our life where we get caughtup, we take things more
seriously, we take it morepersonally, and we get really
(07:38):
insecure.
Angus Ross (07:39):
Yeah. And he only goes to the gym once a week, 52
times more than me in a year, Imight say,
Rohini Ross (07:48):
Me too. I wonder what his body looks like.
Angus Ross (07:52):
I don't know that you should be checking out his
body.
Rohini Ross (07:54):
I didn't, that's what I'm wondering.
Angus Ross (07:57):
Shouldn't even be wondering.
Rohini Ross (08:00):
I'm just curious, given his focus on her.
Angus Ross (08:04):
Okay.
Rohini Ross (08:08):
In the next segment, sorry, we done?
Angus Ross (08:11):
I'm done.
Rohini Ross (08:12):
In the next segment, I lay a little bit of
the foundation in terms of howthe work is going to be going
for these ongoing sessions. Andthen we get to hear a little bit
from Alicia about sort of whereshe does get caught up. The way
(08:33):
that we're working together, I'mgonna, you know, share things
with you that are educational,and point you insert in the
direction of what you alreadyknow, inside of you. So it's
like you have your own wisdom,and you're the expert in
yourself and your relationship.
But what happens is when you getkind of, you know, a lot of
insecure thinking going on, andyou get stirred up and that gets
(08:55):
really noisy. And it's harder tohear what you really know in
your heart, what you really knowto be true.
Alicia (09:02):
So when that like happens, the insecurity that I
was expressing this come aboutis from him telling me like, Oh,
I don't know if, you know, Iwant this to be my life forever.
I'm uncertain about arelationship. That's where those
insecurities are coming cuz I'mlike, we were good five seconds
ago, like what the hell.
Rohini Ross (09:20):
Yeah.
So you can hear what she justsaid that it looks to Alicia
like, Mateo is responsible forher feelings of insecurity that
that's where they're comingfrom. She doesn't recognize that
they're coming from inside ofherself at this point.
Angus Ross (09:36):
I know what a cad and a bounder.
Rohini Ross (09:41):
That's the opposite point that I tried to make.
Angus Ross (09:43):
I know, I'm trying to amplify your opposite point.
Rohini Ross (09:46):
No, no, that's the opposite of what I'm trying to
say
Angus Ross (09:48):
That he's not a cat isn't the bounder?
Rohini Ross (09:50):
I'm saying that he may be a cat or a bounder, but
it's not him being a cat or abounder that is causing her to
feel insecure. I
Angus Ross (10:00):
I know, I'm being ironic.
Rohini Ross (10:03):
I don't understand your irony
Angus Ross (10:05):
North Americans, you don't understand irony.
Rohini Ross (10:08):
Can you explain?
Angus Ross (10:09):
I am trying to point out that obviously he's not a
cabinet bounder that's that'ssomething that she's made up in
her imagination. She's makinghim responsible for her
suffering. So therefore in that,through that lens, he is a cat
and a bounder. So therefore I amsaying, what a cat in the
bounder from that problem fromthat perspective, irony, it, we
(10:33):
need to get it.
Rohini Ross (10:35):
So, from my perspective, he could be a cat
in a bounder, but she might be,but it still doesn't cause her
suffering, right.
Angus Ross (10:44):
So he may very well be a cat in the boundary. And
she does still doesn't need totake that personally. That's
right. And she he could couldshe could be totally inventing
with that.
Rohini Ross (10:57):
It could be one of those, one of those either. But
would you say that when you saidhe was a cabinet founder that
was you being sarcastic?
Angus Ross (11:06):
Yes. It would be a better way to frame it.
Rohini Ross (11:09):
I didn't get that point.
Angus Ross (11:10):
Okay.
Rohini Ross (11:12):
Well, we can move along now.
Angus Ross (11:14):
Okay. Carry on.
Rohini Ross (11:20):
What we're going to be looking at going forward is
how to actually empower her, I'mnot going to be condoning his
behavior or saying that whathe's doing is okay, are kind.
But I ultimately want to freeher from feeling that he has the
capacity to cause her to feelinsecure.
Angus Ross (11:40):
Yeah, I'm not talking about giving her boxing
gloves and giving her the toolsand means to fight back in an
adversarial way.
Rohini Ross (11:50):
No, is that what you think of when I say
empowering her?
Angus Ross (11:53):
Oh, no, some people might think that.
Rohini Ross (11:57):
I'm like, I'm talking about her being
empowered from within, whereshe's able to feel okay,
independent of what his behavioris.
Angus Ross (12:07):
Yes, I got that.
Alicia (12:12):
Like, he's even said like, well, like, right before
we decided to come here,whatever, kid send me like a
text like, Oh, I'm gonna moveout at the end of the month,
blah, blah. And in the hopes inthe hopes that nothing comes of
it because therapy wassuccessful. And like, You're
threatening me? Yeah. Andthat's, that's playing with my
head. And that's this emotionalrollercoaster you will be on.
Rohini Ross (12:33):
So we're gonna address that. And no, one's
perfect. No. So what I want tosay the more that you can see
that when he's doing that,that's a reflection of his fear
in the moment and his state ofmind, the less you're going to
take it personally. And here's agreat example. There would be
(12:55):
other women that their husbandwould say to them something
about their body, and they wouldget totally insecure. That
doesn't happen to you. Thereason that doesn't happen to
you is because you don't take itpersonally. You see, like,
That's his problem, I find thebig deal. But with this other
thing, and you could say, well,of course I get upset, but it's
(13:15):
No it's not, of course, ifyou're able to start to see like
when he's saying those kinds ofthings, when he's threatening
you. And he's, you know, doingany of that. That's a reflection
of his state of mind. And itactually doesn't mean anything
about the relationship, itactually doesn't mean anything
about his love for you. And itabsolutely doesn't mean anything
about you, the more you can seethat, the more neutral you're
(13:37):
going to be when he kind of getsinto that disturbed state
internally. So it's twofold.
Obviously, Angus and I are goingto address that because it's not
ideal.
Alicia (13:50):
Right.
Rohini Ross (13:50):
But because I don't know what his learning curve is
gonna look like he mightregress, you know, that can
happen, right? And he might getback into that state. But if you
see it for what it is, itdoesn't have to impact you in
the same way. You know, he'sjust really freaked out right
now. And he's internallydisturbed. And when he gets
(14:14):
scared, he says things likethat. All it means is that he's
scared in that moment.
Alicia (14:21):
I can, I can absolutely see that. I think from the way
that I was definitelyapproaching it is like, the
whole body image thing. It'slike, okay, whatever, just like
my body, that's me. But like,when it comes to our
relationship, like that'ssomething that's very serious to
me. And that's where then I'mgetting put into, like, Rocky,
you know, territory.
Rohini Ross (14:39):
And so does that help you to kind of see like,
it's actually no different thanthe body thing.
Alicia (14:44):
100% I mean, I've never, I would have never thought to
think of it that right.
Rohini Ross (14:49):
That's good. So that's the other thing that
we're looking for in this timetogether is what Haven't you
thought of before. That's a newone. That's really good and that
that will be really helpfulbecause You're going to be able
to like, as you said,relationships, you know, you're
with another person and anotherperson is going to have their
moods that go up and down,right? You're going to have
(15:10):
their insecurities, theirfrailties, there's weaknesses.
So our intention is for both ofyou to be on more common ground
by the time you leave here. Butyou're both still going to be
the same people. Yeah, you'regoing to have the same
frailties. But hopefully, theywon't come up as much, but
they're probably going to comeup. So what you can see from
(15:30):
what you know, you know, aboutyour husband is that when he
gets insecure, he kind of lashesout at you. And you one point
the finger at you. Now, as muchas I'd like to say, Oh, we can
fix that.
Alicia (15:44):
Right
Rohini Ross (15:45):
The actual benefit to the relationship is for you
to become immune to that. So I'mnot saying it's okay. And I'm
not saying I don't want that todecrease, but what's actually
really going to help therelationship is when you see
that for what it is, and it'snot taken personally, and so you
don't get destabilized?
Alicia (16:07):
Yeah, I'd love to get there for sure.
Rohini Ross (16:09):
Yeah. Well, you being able to see it and say, I
hadn't thought of it that way.
Like that's you getting there.
Like, that's you seeing like,the next time that I mean,
again, I don't want it Yeah, butlike I said, you know, people
are human, that the next timesomething like that happens.
Alicia (16:23):
yeah
Rohini Ross (16:24):
You're gonna remember we had this
conversation and you were like,Oh, he's destabilized.
Alicia (16:28):
It's funny. You mentioned that because like last
night, like when we were when Igot really upset over all this
stuff, or whatever we spokeabout, like him moving out
thing. It like dawned on me, I'mlike, crying wolf. Like you're
crying wolf right now. And it'sto throw me out of my orbit.
Rohini Ross (16:44):
Mm hmm. Well, I don't even know that it's that
intentional. I don't know, Ican't I can't read his mind. But
I wouldn't. I don't even thinkit's that intentional. Most
people just this is just knowingpeople not knowing him. But
knowing people. Like when theyget when people get scared. And
they don't understand thatthey're scared. And they're,
they just try to fix theirexperience. So if somebody have
(17:07):
an experience that feelsintense, and they're scared by
the intensity of thatexperience, they try to fix it.
And so one of the ways thatpeople try to fix their
experience, not a good way, butone of the ways that people do
it is they start to lash out atsomebody else, or they start to
place blame elsewhere, as a wayto try and fix what's going on
internally. Doesn't work. Yeah,makes a negative downward
(17:30):
spiral. But it's the bestattempt that they can do in that
moment. And this is somethingthat Angus is going to be
talking about, too. So for bothof you to really get on board
with that, each one of you, youand you can see this for
yourself. Each one of you isdoing the absolute best you can
in each moment.
Angus Ross (17:52):
Boom. Nice going, sister.
Rohini Ross (17:56):
Thank you. I mean, she had an insight.
Angus Ross (17:59):
Yeah, that's so cool. That's gonna be a hard act
to follow. Now for me too.
Rohini Ross (18:06):
Well, he had more of a slow burn on his insight
unfolding,
Angus Ross (18:10):
I guess. But that was fantastic. She, she she
really saw something and youcould see how her spirits lifted
as she got that sense of whatshe was saying.
Rohini Ross (18:21):
Or what you're pointing out is when she said
that comment. I've never thoughtabout it that way before. Right?
Yeah, I think that's helpful forour listeners to recognize that
when people step into newterritory and the unknown, it
usually feels that way that it'snew and fresh. And they haven't
seen it that way before.
Angus Ross (18:39):
Yeah, there's a and it's all about the cadence in
the voice. That could be a Yeah,I never really thought about it
like that way. And it's kind ofdismissive, but this was like,
Yeah, I never really thoughtabout it like that way before.
Rohini Ross (18:51):
And that's cool.
Angus Ross (18:52):
Yeah, really landed for I love that.
Rohini Ross (18:54):
Yeah. And I love that she was able to feel some
of that possibility, that senseof possibility that this area
that she was taking, soseriously, didn't have to be
taken so seriously that shecould see that she already has
the resilience inside of herrelated to other comments that
(19:15):
he makes. But these commentsabout leaving, they were like
kryptonite to her.
Angus Ross (19:20):
Yeah. And you could really get a sense of the
optimism that was coming intoplay for her at this point at
that point beyond that point,too.
Rohini Ross (19:27):
And I want to be really clear, and I did say a
once in this segment, but I wantto be very clear that I am not
condoning bad behavior. If he isbeing unkind to her or cruel to
her. I'm not saying that's okay.
Just put up with it. What I amsaying is that it doesn't mean
(19:48):
anything about her so that shecan have more internal
stability, more authenticempowerment and from that place
where she's not feelingvictimized and not suffering,
she will make whatever choicesare best for her in that
relationship.
Angus Ross (20:08):
Yeah, that's, that's fantastic. And I guess it's also
a case of them not feeling likethey're a doormat, she could
think, you know, I guess quiteoften you hear clients say,
Yeah, but that makes me feellike such a doormat. And really,
actually, it's not a doormat youget to the higher ground, it's
actually empowering to see thatthis other person is suffering.
And you are not as the case maybe, it's all about their state
(20:31):
of mind has nothing to do withyou. So it's actually like a
superpower. In a sense,
Rohini Ross (20:35):
it is, it's really empowering. And I just want to
make that clear, I love that youuse that phrase doormat, because
that's the opposite of what I'msaying. And from that place of
inner stability, perspective,calm, you know, it's up to her
whether she chooses to be in therelationship or not. And each
client obviously will make theirown choice based on that that's
(20:58):
not my job to tell them what todo. But it's getting to that
place of inner empowerment,where those choices are best
made, rather than running awayout of reactivity, or staying
out of fear of not being able toleave, it's finding that place
of inner equilibrium and peaceof mind. And then from there
(21:19):
from that place of love,ultimately, making the choice
about the relationship.
Angus Ross (21:25):
All aces, baby.
Rohini Ross (21:28):
Right, well, let's hear a little bit more.
So what's been happening isthat, you know, he's been, you
know, upset, destabilized,you've been upset, destabilize,
you've interacted, and then he'sdefinitely taking that
personally. You're sometimestaking it personally. And and
(21:48):
you're both getting more andmore destabilized. So as you
both get more and moredestabilized, the quality of
feeling in the relationship goesdown. Right? So it's just it's
it's a direct relationship, themore destabilized you get the
feeling and the relationshipgoes down. And what's happening
is the, the direct causation ofthat isn't clear. And so it's,
(22:15):
if because if it was clear,you'd like, Oh, we just need to
settle down. And we'd be fine.
Alicia (22:18):
Yeah.
Rohini Ross (22:19):
But it's looking like Well, no, I need to leave
or he needs to be different, or,you know, all these other things
need to get fixed. Yep. In orderfor the feeling to come back
into the relationship. And whatI'm saying is like, Well,
actually, it's a whole lot moresimple than that. And that it's
really about each one of yougetting more stable internally.
(22:40):
And naturally. You don't evenhave to work at it. Naturally,
the feelings come back in. Sowhat's your reaction to what I'm
saying?
Alicia (22:49):
That I want to do that?
Rohini Ross (22:51):
Yeah, yeah. And what are your thoughts about
like, I know that you'd want toit's appealing. It's, yeah,
resonates. But what are yourthoughts about the
practicalities of that?
Alicia (23:02):
I mean, I think it's very practical. I think it's
like approaches that, like Isaid, Never like thought of,
yeah, um, I think like goingback to the whole thing of, you
know, the body image versuslike, and looking at it in the
same perspective as the leavingthing, or when he's threatened
me, I think that that doessomewhat give me stability, like
(23:25):
it does call me in a sense thatthings are like, Alright, you're
just going through something andI get that I'm a stronger
person, I can handle a lot more.
And it's not a perspective, Iever thought that I should view
it as. Because I always thoughtlike, obviously, that's very
serious.
Rohini Ross (23:38):
Like, you're very serious, like, I'm gonna pay it.
I'm not gonna take thatseriously.
Alicia (23:41):
Yeah
Rohini Ross (23:42):
But I'm gonna take that seriously.
Alicia (23:43):
Yeah.
Rohini Ross (23:44):
What I'm saying is when he's destabilized, you
can't take anything he says,seriously.
Alicia (23:48):
Yeah.
Rohini Ross (23:49):
And the same goes for him too, when you're
destabilized. And he's takingwhat you're saying very
seriously, when you're upset.
Alicia (23:54):
100% I've always said to him, I was like, why didn't mean
it that way. I was just like, itwas in the heat of the moment.
Rohini Ross (23:59):
Yeah.
Alicia (24:00):
Then it just like, remains with him. And it's like,
what, but what, like you've saidthings you don't mean? Yeah,
yeah. And I think it it may haveto start, you know, even like,
just with me understanding thatmaybe it'll transpire as well,
like, because it's not affectingme. Then maybe then he'll see
that like, that's not gonnawork.
Rohini Ross (24:19):
It will fizzle out.
Yeah. What happens is, when,when, like, he says that and you
take it's like, he says thathe's destabilized. He says that
Alicia (24:30):
I take it like the atomic bomb.
Rohini Ross (24:31):
Yeah, you take it seriously. And then you're now
all stirred up and you saywhatever you say. And then it's
like that escalation.
Yeah.
That happens.
Alicia (24:41):
But or internalize it, and then it's eating me up.
Rohini Ross (24:43):
But yeah, but even if it doesn't be expressed, it's
still going up. And it willeventually come out in some way.
Alicia (24:51):
Which is what happens.
Rohini Ross (24:52):
Yeah, exactly. But look at it this way, then. So
he's getting off. You're fine.
You're feeling good. You'refine. He gets he's all stir up,
you have no control over thatmay have absolutely nothing to
do with you. He drops the bomb.
And you're like, oh, he's reallysuffering. This is what he does
when he's suffering. You don'tgo up here, you stay down here,
(25:15):
he's more likely to just comeback down, rather than each one
of you. Right? escalating.
Yeah.
So that's where it's, it's notthat you're responsible for what
he does, you're not responsiblefor him coming back down and
settling. But it's just how itworks. Because we're all
designed to settle. Yeah, likenobody enjoys being in a head up
(25:37):
escalated state of mind, nobodylikes that. And we never stay
there forever. We get there, westay there for as long as we
stay there, and then we comeback down. So what's been
happening is like, there's beensomeone's lighting the match,
and then gasoline has beenthrown on the match, and then
more sleeves are thrown a match.
So it's like, now someone canlike the match, whether it's you
or whether it's him. And theother person can have a much
(25:58):
better chance of not throwinggasoline on that match. And
what's the match going to do isjust going to go out?
Alicia (26:06):
Yeah.
Rohini Ross (26:06):
Right. And it's going to go out not with a huge
bang, which is going to fizzleout. Now, that is what decreases
volatility in relationships, andvolatility, and the escalation
that you're describing. It'spainful, because we say things
that we like to say we saythings that we don't mean, we
get desperate, and we start tothink of desperate measures.
(26:28):
And, and then our mind is filledwith all of that, because now we
got to figure out well, what ifhe is leaving me? Or how am I
going to leave her? You know,maybe I don't want to be
married, like, then your mind isfilled up with all that content
that you're now takingseriously?
Alicia (26:42):
Yeah.
Rohini Ross (26:44):
So in this section, I'm doing my best to help Alicia
see how the conflict escalatesin the relationship, and how
that damages rapport, and whatthe possibilities are, for her
to actually be able to get outof that dynamic that she's in
(27:08):
with Mateo, and actually havethat whole dynamic shift just by
her choosing not to engage withit.
Angus Ross (27:17):
Yeah, in a sense, I guess the invitation is for her
to go to the higher ground. Andfrom the point of view of seeing
how he's caught up, he'ssuffering. And if she engages
with him at that level, she justcomes down to that level. And I
both get locked into thesuffering together.
Rohini Ross (27:38):
And I think she's pretty clear that she can be
very volatile, too. So it's notlike he's the only one that's
engaging from a destabilizeplace. It sounds like they both
engage from that place. And sofor her to be able to see the
damage that that does, and thatreally all that's needed, is to
be able to wait out theemotional storm. And from that
(28:00):
place of inner calm, they canthen have conversations that
don't devolve into moreconflict, and hopefully see what
the possibilities are that areavailable to them.
Angus Ross (28:14):
Yeah, well, I mean, I do remain hopeful, because it
seems like she's seen something.
And now it's a case of her beingable to try this on for size and
see the fruits of that.
Rohini Ross (28:25):
Absolutely.
In this next section, I'm reallyemphasizing for Alicia the
importance of her being able tosee something for herself, that
will allow her to have adifferent experience in the
relationship. Even if Matteo isnot able to make the same level
(28:46):
of change that she does. Now,that doesn't mean that I'm not
hopeful for Matteo. And then I'mnot expecting him to have
learnings and transformation aswell. But I really want her to
see how her experience can bedifferent, even if he doesn't
significantly change, becauseher experience is coming from
(29:07):
inside of herself. And it'scoming from how she's relating
to her own thoughts. And thatshe has the ability to
stabilize, and to connect withher own sense of inner well
being and peace independently ofhim. And to me, that's really
important, because I want her torealize that she has that inner
(29:27):
freedom, and that she has thatcapacity. So there's two parts
to this one is and it seems likethis is you know, really key
point from this first session isfor you to just start to see,
because I don't know what kindof state of mind he's going to
be in when he leaves thatsession. Right?
Alicia (29:45):
Right.
Rohini Ross (29:45):
He might be more stirred up. He might not be we
don't know. So let's say hestood up, let's say he's like, I
can't believe in this. Like, I'mnot saying he said this to me.
What is the what is the point ofbeing here? I think I'm just
gonna leave now. Like justhypothetically, right? From this
conversation, you could be like,Oh, he's just really scared.
(30:05):
Yes, feeling really insecure?
It's not about you, it doesn't,you don't have to take anything
he's saying seriously, in thatmoment.
Yeah.
And from that observation, youwill relate to that. You relate
to yourself differently, andyou'll relate to him
differently. And you will feelbetter. Right? Because when you
(30:26):
don't take things personally,and when you kind of have
perspective, but you might evenfeel compassion for him. Yeah,
right. You might be like, God,he's really struggling, you
don't know what you'll see. ButI just want you to recognize his
state of mind. Recognizing thatwhen he's behaving in a certain
way, that's a reflection of hisstate of mind it. And if he's
(30:49):
got a stirred up state of mind,that's an indicator to not take
what he's saying, seriously.
Now, the same is true for you.
So just as much as I want you tokind of be able to see his state
of mind and know whether youwill want to take what he's
saying seriously or not. I don'tmean disrespectful.
Alicia (31:07):
Right, right.
Rohini Ross (31:07):
I don't mean like, Oh, I'm not, I don't want to
take any say. So it's just aninternal recognition. Right?
He's just a little crazy rightnow. And, you know, take
everything he says, with a grainof salt. Yeah, the same is true
for our own state of mind. If westart to recognize when our own
state of mind gets sped up, westart to see when we need to
take our thinking seriously, andwhen we don't. So for you, when
(31:31):
you're, you know, what I'mhearing is there can be kind of
this build that happens. So whenyou're starting to build, what
will interrupt the build isactually not his behavior? It's
actually going to be yourealizing that you're getting
stirred up, and that you don'tneed to take all these thoughts
that you're having seriously.
Alicia (31:50):
That definitely happens.
Like I catch myself tellingmyself like, Okay, stop. You're
overthinking. You'reoverthinking. Yeah, let it go.
Rohini Ross (31:56):
So you recognize it?
Alicia (31:57):
I, I've recognized before I've never have, but now
I'm recognizing it. I want torecognize it more.
Rohini Ross (32:04):
You'll get better.
Alicia (32:05):
But I do catch myself in moments like driving to work or
taking out the trash and beinglike, You're overthinking just
stop.
Rohini Ross (32:13):
Yes. That's great.
That's great. So you're alreadyseeing that. And it will just
naturally you'll see it more.
Because what happens is we getmore sensitive to the negative
feelings that come up with astirred up state of mind. So
before when you didn't evenrealize you would be in the
feeling of a stirred up state ofmind and not even know it. So
now you are driving to work andyour feelings are letting you
Angus Ross (32:35):
Feelings. Oh, you must use your feelings. I like
know Oh, I'm overthinking. Stopit! So you are getting more
sensitive to that and realizingoh I'm going down the rabbit
hole and I shouldnt go downthere. Your are on the right
track and you are gonna keepseeing more related to that. So,
the more you see about that theless you are going to get
escalated and the less likelythere is going to be blow outs
(32:58):
betweeen the two of you becauseyou wont get to the place you
need to blow out. I am notsaying never but it would be
less often and when it doeshappen,lets say last night for
example. When you are able tosee it trough the understanding
of you were really stir up, youwere taking your thinking
seriously, you were taking whathe was saying personally and
(33:21):
your behaviour made sense of howyou were seeing it. But today
you have a bigger perspective.
You can see that oh, that was mystired up thinking that I was
reacting from. Is not reallythe perspective that you could
see in this moment. What imhoping Alicia is taking on board
(33:42):
here is how she can use herfeelings as a signal to help her
understand what her quality ofher thinking is in the moment,
what her state of mind is. Andis a very simple way for her to
know how she is doing and wheteror not she needs to take a
break, needs to let herselfsettle. And the more she is
(34:04):
willing to use her feelings asthat signal the easier is for
her to recognice earlier andearlier when she needs to
practice selfcare, when sheneeds to let her mind relax and
so thats the main piece I hopeshe takes away, is that she has
this built in feedback mecanismthat she carries everywhere with
(34:27):
her and that will help guide herin a way that will allowed her
to not engage in the volatilityin the same way she has been.
(34:51):
that. That's that's theindicator that she's looking for
to know when she's out ofbalance or going south in a
state of mind. Check thosefeelings.
Rohini Ross (35:00):
Absalutely and they never lie, our feelings don't
lie to us. And we can all trustthem. I mean, this isn't just
for her, this is her, everysingle one of us, myself
included. And the more attune webecome, the more sensitive we
become, the more we recognizewhen we're getting stirred up.
And I'm not talking about beinghyper vigilant about paying
(35:22):
attention to feelings all thetime, what I'm recommending to
her is for her to just be ableto notice, not that she needs to
be checking in every 10 seconds,but just to to get used to the
feeling of when she's not in aplace of neutral. When she's
(35:43):
starting to leave that territoryand heading to a more sped up
place in her mind that she isable to detect that on a feeling
level, so that she can thencourse correct earlier rather
than later.
Angus Ross (35:57):
It's like on our new car we have the steering column
has the steering wheel willvibrate when we go out of lane.
It's like you start to see whatthose little indicators are that
show you you know, she's she'sgetting out of lane. I think for
me, actually, I've noticed formyself, that if I get anxious, I
(36:18):
get really anxious and I getreally sped up, I tend to get
kind of a tight a tight chest.
And that for me is that's myindicator. That's my steering
column vibrating. And then Iknow just kind of take my foot
off the gas in a way.
Rohini Ross (36:32):
That means letting your mind relax, I take my foot
off the gas, letting your mindstep off it.
Angus Ross (36:37):
Yeah, absolutely.
Alicia (36:43):
I guess my only question would be like, for instance,
like yesterday, Valentine's Dayand like, seeing like not, and
no attention from it. Like, howwould I approach that without
being like, Well, that was mean,or like, now I'm insecure about
those things?
Rohini Ross (36:59):
Well, what I would say is like, whenever you're
feeling hurt, the more that youcan see that that feeling of
hurt, is a reflection of youtaking something personally. And
it's not actually reflection ofwhat he's doing. Like, because
when he, when he said hisexplanation of that, it was kind
(37:22):
of like I don't want to lead heron, like, yeah, kindness in
that, right. So it wasn't, I'mdoing this as a few to hurt her.
He's like, I don't want to leadher on. So I'm not going to give
her my mixed messages. I hearthe kindness of that. So there's
a there was a misunderstandingthat was going on inside of you
making it mean this, this andthis, when actually he was doing
(37:43):
it out of his own logic of whatmade sense to him not to be me.
So your hurt wasn't actuallycoming from what he was doing.
It was coming from the meaningthat you were giving it. Does
that make sense?
Alicia (37:56):
It does.
Rohini Ross (37:57):
And so you're hurt.
You don't have control? Like oneof the things that you said in
the other room? Which I don'tnecessarily I don't agree with.
And I think it might be helpfulto talk about it, because I
think it might be holding on toa standard. This is not
reasonable. But you said we canchoose how we feel. And we may
(38:19):
be able to influence that. LikeI absolutely agree that if, you
know, I realize I'm going downthat rabbit hole of negative
thinking, and I wake up andlike, Oh, I don't want to go
down there like right, there'ssome influence there. But what
about those times when I don'teven realize I'm in the rabbit
hole? I don't really have achoice then.
(38:41):
Yeah.
Right? And so just like thatexample, from last night, like
you were hurt, it didn't feellike you had a choice about
being hurt. So you didn't reallyget to choose how you felt it
just occurred to you. Right? SoI think having that be
understood is just a lot morehumane.
Alicia (38:59):
Mm hmm.
Rohini Ross (39:00):
And then you're not holding yourself to a standard
that you should always befeeling good or always able to
control your feelings. Andyou're also not holding him to
that standard, either. Because,you know, it's it's, to me, it's
just an unreasonable expectationfor yourself or for him for any
human being really, you justcan't control our thoughts. So
because we can't control ourthoughts. We can't control our
(39:23):
feelings because they come fromour thoughts. But what you can
recognize is like, for example,using yesterday's Valentine's
Day, incident, when you'refeeling hurt, the more that you
can see like, Oh, this is areflection of my state of mind.
It's coming from me. It's notactually coming from him. Then
(39:48):
there's going to be morekindness to letting yourself
settle and addressing it onceyou're a little bit more clear.
Does that make sense? I can seeyour face kind of changed when
I'm talking with you,
Alicia (40:01):
Just like if I had approached it differently, like,
maybe he could have seemed likeit did hurt my feelings.
Rohini Ross (40:07):
Yeah. But I'm not saying this. So you're gonna be
hard on yourself?
Alicia (40:10):
No, no.
Rohini Ross (40:11):
Yeah. So I really want you to
Alicia (40:13):
Yeah, no, it's just like it's more. So just like, I wish
I would have approached it thatway.
Rohini Ross (40:19):
Well, now you're seeing the possibility of
approaching in a different way.
You didn't see that then. So youcouldn't have done that then.
But the good news is this is alearning, you're going to be
able to see that going forward.
Alicia (40:30):
Yeah.
Rohini Ross (40:30):
Right. So you're like, oh, you're, you're caught
up in your thinking you'refeeling hurt, you'll be able to
see like, oh, there's anopportunity for me to take care
of myself here and realize, I'mgetting caught up in my own
story, and then approach it in adifferent way, and probably get
a different result.
Alicia (40:48):
Yeah.
Rohini Ross (40:49):
And to me, that's going to be the theme of what's
going on between the two of you,is that the way that you've been
trying to approach things withhim has not been working. But
now you're seeing a possibilityfor how you might approach
things differently, they'llprobably get a different result.
Alicia (41:07):
Yeah. And I feel like I couldn't, you know, reflect
across the board, like everyrelationship in my life.
Rohini Ross (41:13):
Oh, there. And you know what? That realization,
when you see something genericlike that, that's huge. Like,
that's, you're seeing somethingreally profound, because it's
now you're recognizing, this issomething that I do as a as a
general thing. Yeah. And you'reseeing the opportunity for
something to be different. Andso that, that sort of
(41:36):
generalized, different way ofbeing is going to change every
area of your life.
Alicia (41:41):
Yeah, I can definitely see that.
Rohini Ross (41:47):
I love that she got to the point, where she was able
to see that the way that sherelates to Matteo is not
specific to him, she was able tostep far enough back and
recognize that the way she'sshowing up there also relates to
how she shows up in otherrelationships in her life. And I
(42:09):
think that when a client is ableto take that step back and see
the big picture in in that way,I feel really hopeful because
it's no longer about the rightand wrong in the relationship.
She's actually reflecting on howshe shows up. And when she sees
(42:29):
how there's similarities in allareas of her life, that means
that she's really looking atthis in a much more universal
way and much more philosophicalway. And so I feel quite excited
that she's actually having asignificant shift related to
this.
Angus Ross (42:48):
Yeah, that was the pivotal moment for me to
actually, you know, she's been,they've both been somewhat
narrow, very narrow in theirfocus on the relationship. But I
just felt in that moment, shejust really pulled back and got
the wide shot, got the fullperspective of what this
understanding is pointing to.
And, and, you know, I've hadthat experience with other
clients, they see theuniversality of it, as you say,
(43:09):
and that's like, Yeah, boy,yeah, we got we got where we
need to get to. And it's reallyexciting, actually, as a coach
to sort of witness that.
Rohini Ross (43:20):
Yeah, it absolutely is. And there were two other
points that I just want to pointout. Points that I want to point
out? to other themes that Ithink are important, and one of
them is something that we'regoing to be revisiting over and
over again, it's something thatcan be difficult for people to
(43:43):
really see and and recognize howit shows up in their life. But
that point is how we don't feelthe outside circumstance. We
feel what we're relating to, inour own mind. And so this is a
(44:04):
180 degree shift from whereshe's been looking at Mateo is
the source of her suffering.
He's been responsible for howshe feels. And here I am saying,
well, actually matej was acircumstance and you're not
experiencing that. Everythingyou experience comes through the
filter of your own thoughts.
(44:27):
That's what you're identifyingwith and you're making that
meaning up. It's not coming fromhim. And I really appreciate how
open minded she was and how ableshe was to hear that in that
moment. There wasn't anypushback. But I think this is a
pivotal point for thatempowerment piece. For anybody
(44:47):
to be able to see that weexperience. What we're
identifying within our own mind.
That means that we can no longerbe a victim to what's happening
outside of us. Tat doesn't mean,as I've said earlier, that we
have to stay in the situationthat we can't make changes. But
to understand that ourexperience comes from inside of
(45:09):
us, is actually reallyliberating.
Angus Ross (45:15):
Yeah, I mean, it's, it's quite a quantum shift in
consciousness, so much so thatshe's probably gonna, she's
probably going to go in and outof this understanding from this
point forward, and maybe in asense, as we all do, but she's
seen a lot, and it's gonna takea while probably for this to
really anchor in. But I feel,you know, it's, I feel really
(45:36):
optimistic, it's awesome that,you know, you've got to that
place with her.
Rohini Ross (45:40):
And the other point that I think is really key,
because there can be amisunderstanding that, what,
what I'm talking about is justanother way to manage your
thoughts and feelings. And Iwanted to make that really clear
to her that this understandingthat I'm sharing is not about
giving her the capacity tochoose what feelings she has to
(46:03):
choose what thoughts she has,it's, it's so much work to try
and manage our experience andtry and manage her thoughts.
It's ultimatelycounterproductive, because it's
so exhausting. And we getstressed out. And I'm saying
this from firsthand experience,it's not like I haven't tried
this myself. So I really wantedher to understand that this
(46:26):
wasn't about being able tochoose to be in a good feeling
all the time. That actually, thegreater freedom and the greater
blessing is to see that feelingscome and go. And we don't need
to control them, because we'resafe no matter what feeling
we're having. So it's not as ifMatteo should be feeling better,
(46:48):
and he should be working atfeeling better, or that she
should be more positive and lessangry. It's that whatever
feelings are present, when we'reopen and relaxed around them,
they just come and they go, likethe weather comes and goes, and
there's no need to fix them, orchange them. And when we're open
around our feelings when we'renot scared by them, there's so
(47:12):
much less acting out from areactive state, because we
understand that we're caught upthat we're in a stirred up state
of mind that the intensity ofthe emotions are going to come
and they're going to go, theintensity is going to come and
it's going to go, and there's noneed to act from that place to
feel better. Because we'renaturally designed to have
(47:32):
emotions move through us. Andall we need to do is allow that
natural design to do what itdoes. And ultimately, we're
going to come back to a place ofstability and peace and balance
within ourselves. And the morewe let go and don't try to
manage our experience, thequicker that seems to happen.
Angus Ross (47:52):
Yeah, so in a nutshell, it's not about a
technique or a process, there'sno magic bullet, it is an
understanding, understandingthat it is an understanding, and
realizing that's as simple asthat.
Rohini Ross (48:08):
Yeah, it's true.
And the other thing I noticed inher and I don't know if you
noticed it, Angus, but shereally started to settle, I'm
gonna just include a little clipwhere she speaks to that. But,
you know, we're doing thepodcast looking at the
recordings. And when you look atrecordings, in the software, you
see the volume, the decibellevel of what a person is
(48:31):
speaking by this, these whitelines. And I can see based on
her decibel level, from how thesession progresses, that at this
point in the session, she's muchsofter, quieter, more settled,
and, And that, to me, is anindicator that she's getting
more reflective, her nervoussystem is settling down. She's
(48:52):
really listening. And she's notin the fight flight or freeze
mode, she's, she's just gettingmore relaxed, calm, balanced and
receptive.
Angus Ross (49:04):
It's like you've got a new whole new science at your
disposal to track your clientsstate of well being.
Rohini Ross (49:10):
I just noticed it.
Alicia (49:17):
I definitely feel like a sense of calmness. And just like
opening up my head to like, justviewing things differently, like
I know that I can recognize Ican feel a certain way. And
maybe I don't have to, likeexpress it immediately so that I
can like, calm down from it andsee it correctly.
Rohini Ross (49:34):
Yeah, your your feeling state is going to come
and it's going to go Yeah. Andwhen you see that and you
recognize like, Oh, it's notabout immediately addressing
this thing with him because I'mactually feeling my own state of
mind in this moment. You'll bemore likely to write out that
wave and then address it onceyou're more settled.
Angus Ross (49:55):
Yeah, I really see what you mean. She's really come
back down to earth here. Shestarted. Off way out in the
stratosphere and she's reallysettled down. It's, it's really
lovely to see.
Rohini Ross (50:06):
Yeah. And hopefully she'll recognize that feeling
state for herself and get morefamiliar with it and comfortable
with it. And it'll be easier tocome back to again and again and
again.
Angus Ross (50:17):
Yeah, hallelujah.
Rohini Ross (50:22):
Now, I can really relate to Alicia, I have a lot
of empathy and compassion forher, and how personally, she's
been taking Mateos threats toleave. And, you know, the reason
why is because I remember howsensitive I used to be in our
(50:42):
relationship and how, personallyI would take your upset. And
it's really wonderful to be ableto have a new foundation inside
of myself at this point, whereI'm more resilient in the face
of my emotions and in the faceof your emotions. And I'm really
(51:02):
hoping that Alicia can take thaton board for herself. And
ultimately, what allowed me tomake that shift was that I was
able to see how you weren'tresponsible for how I was
feeling, I was able to see howmuch noise I had going on in my
head, that was self deprecating,that was painful. And that even
(51:26):
though maybe you would be angry,that would be what I would be
listening to, it wasn't youranger that was causing me to
feel upset. It was all of thethoughts telling me that I
needed to be better, I wasn'tgood enough if I was a better
woman wife, that you wouldn't beangry in that moment. And it
(51:47):
ultimately was, was my own mindthat was taking me down. And
when I got to have some distancefrom that, through understanding
that I was feeling my ownthoughts, I was able to have
perspective on them in a waythat they didn't grip me in the
same way. And I was able to dropinto deeper feelings of quiet
(52:10):
and peace inside of myself. Andin that space, I realized, I
felt safe, I felt Okay, I feltgood enough. And that was not
coming from outside of me. Itwas 100% coming from me,
experiencing that from withinmyself that could not be given
to me. And in that experience,it completely shifted my ability
(52:34):
to stay stable in the face ofother things going on in my life
in the face of you know, thingsgoing on at work or things going
on with you and ourrelationship. And it's such a
different foundation that I nowlive within that I'm so grateful
for. And I'm hoping that she'sable to get a taste of that,
(52:57):
and, and live more fully intothat so that she can have that
as a foundation for herself. Andultimately, the reason that
we're doing this podcast is thatwe're hoping that everybody who
listens gets a taste of that andfinds that space within
themselves more fully so thatyou know you as a listener can
live more from there in yourlife.
(53:25):
Thank you so much for listeningto revolving love. If you
enjoyed this podcast, please letus know by subscribing on
iTunes. And we would love foryou to leave a review there.
Angus Ross (53:36):
iTunes reviews will steer people to this podcast who
need help with theirrelationships.
Rohini Ross (53:42):
If you would like to learn more about our work and
their online rewildingcommunity, please visit our
website, therewilders.org
Angus Ross (53:50):
Thanks for listening. Join us next week.
Welcome to Rewilding Love. This season is with a
couple on the brink of divorce.
Rohini Ross (00:10):
This is episode number four. Not taking things
personally.
Mateo (00:15):
I may have just made the biggest mistake of my life.
Alicia (00:18):
in any given moment. His vibe just changes. It's like
boom, like you hate me all of asudden.
Angus Ross (00:22):
Feisty she is!
Alicia (00:24):
I don't understand where things went wrong. But I didn't
get married to get divorced.
Rohini Ross (00:29):
She's ultimately sensing that there's more going
on than meets the eye.
Mateo (00:33):
Is the juice worth the squeeze? You know, there's a lot
of squeezing, not getting muchjuice out of it.
Alicia (00:39):
I put in the work in the last two years of working out
four to six times a week to lookgood next to you like you're
welcome.
Angus Ross (00:46):
He only goes to the gym once a week. 52 times more
than me and a year.
Rohini Ross (00:51):
Each one of you is doing the absolute best you can
in each moment.
Alicia (00:56):
I would have never thought to think of it that
right.
Angus Ross (00:59):
Feelings!b Oh, you must use your feelings!
Rohini Ross (01:05):
We just can't control our thoughts. So because
we can't control our thoughts.
We can't control our feelings.
Angus Ross (01:11):
Boom! Nice going sister.
Rohini Ross (01:15):
Thank you!
Angus Ross (01:18):
You are listening to rewild in love with me. Angus
Ross,
Rohini Ross (01:22):
and me Rohini Ross
Angus Ross (01:24):
Rewilding Love. It's a podcast about relationships.
Rohini Ross (01:28):
We believe that love never disappears completely
in relationships. It can alwaysbe rewilded, listen in as we
guide a real couple back totheir natural state of love,
Angus Ross (01:39):
Relax, and enjoy the show.
Rohini Ross (01:49):
This week, we're going to be sharing some
excerpts from one of my sessionswith Alicia to show the benefits
of not taking things personally.
But Angus, I think before we getinto the session clips, it would
be really helpful for us to talkabout what we mean by not taking
things personally. Because wehave an expanded meaning on that
when you say
Angus Ross (02:12):
Yes, expanded meaning and I would say that
this is probably the mostdifficult nut of all for our
clients to swallow, in terms ofthe leverage that we're looking
for to get them to a place ofhealing.
Rohini Ross (02:28):
Well, the typical definition of somebody taking
something personally, is whenthey interpret someone's remarks
or actions, as directed againstthem when those remarks or
actions weren't intended to bedirected toward them. And they
get upset and offended by that.
But we actually take it one stepfurther than that. And our
(02:50):
definition, would say that wenever need to take someone's
words or behaviors personally,even if they are directed
towards us. Because whatevertheir behavior is, is always a
reflection of their state ofmind. And it's really nothing to
do with us, even if they aredirecting it toward us. Does
that make sense?
Angus Ross (03:12):
Does it make sense to me?
Rohini Ross (03:13):
Yes.
Angus Ross (03:14):
Or it is to the audience?
Rohini Ross (03:16):
I can't talk to the audience. Makes sense to you?
Angus Ross (03:19):
Yeah, no, it makes perfect sense to me. Yeah, it's
a, it's a radical change inoptics, it's seeing that in
actual fact, it's the otherperson who's suffering because
they're suffering from theirstate of mind, they got
themselves into a low mood, andthey're kind of really acting
out from that place. So if wecan really harness that
(03:39):
understanding, then in actualfact, that is our suffering,
because we're not taking itpersonally. And even actually
presents us with theopportunity, we might even
entertain some compassion forthat person. So I'm actually I
remember the other day that myeldest daughter got really mad
at me got really angry because Ididn't pick up the dog poo in
(03:59):
the garden. And I said that Iwas. And, and I could have taken
that really, personally at thetime, because she was pretty
mad. But I could see that she,for whatever reason, got herself
into a bit of a low mood. And ina sense, I was able to see the
innocence there. And I felt asense of compassion and I and
(04:20):
didn't go into that sort ofusual or typical pathway of
blame. I just let it go. So thatwould be an example of yet me
not taking it. Not meaning topat myself on the back too. too
hard, but me not taking itpersonally.
Rohini Ross (04:36):
Bravo!
Angus Ross (04:37):
Bravo to me.
Rohini Ross (04:41):
So this next clip that we're gonna play is
actually an example of Alicianot taking something personally.
And it's really demonstratinghow she has this capacity. And
so we're sharing it just as anexample of where she has
perspective where she can seethat what Mateo saying isn't
(05:01):
about her. So we'll hear fromher now.
Alicia (05:07):
He definitely is judged my body a lot before. And I
don't take offense to it,because I think I'm a mentally
strong person.
Rohini Ross (05:13):
Who choose not being in shape.
Alicia (05:16):
Yeah, or like looking at us both in the mirror and been
like, wow, we should really getin the gym and this and that.
And then now that I have been ingreat shape, I'm in great shape
now better than I've ever beenin my entire life, to be honest
with you very happy with my bodyand everything. And yes, there
are definitely places that I canimprove on, of course, I mean,
you can always do that. But thispast week, I had just gotten
(05:38):
back from spin class, and I wasgetting ready to get in the
shower. And he had just gone tohis trainer, he's only going
once a week of any workouts. Andthat's I know, smooth, it's been
bugging him because he keepssaying he wants to be like in
shape and a better diet, blah,blah, but then turns to me and
goes, you should consider goingon a personal trainer, you know,
you can be a little bit more fitor meeting say a little bit more
fit, but something along thoselines. And I just like, in my
(06:02):
head, I'm just like, are youserious right now?
Rohini Ross (06:04):
Mm hmm.
Alicia (06:05):
And the way that I approach it, I was like, yeah,
you know what I actually thoughtabout that, maybe? Would you be
interested in doing it with me?
And then that way we can cutdown the cost cuts like that can
be fun, at least like once aday. I don't take offense to
that stuff. Because I'm like,I'm just happy with what I look
like, I really don't care. Yeah.
And I've also put in the work inthe last two years of working
(06:27):
out, four to five, four to sixtimes a week. To look good next
to you like you're welcome.
Rohini Ross (06:33):
Yeah.
Angus Ross (06:35):
Wow, I, I do not know what I would do. If you
certainly took it upon yourselfto criticize some aspect of my
body and challenged my bodyimage in some way. I don't know
what I would do, I'd be veryupset.
Rohini Ross (06:50):
So you would take it personally,
Angus Ross (06:52):
I think I take it very personally. So, so good for
her kudos for her for actuallynot, not rising to the bait as
it were.
Rohini Ross (07:02):
Yeah, that is quite unique. I don't know that I
would be able to handle iteither.
Angus Ross (07:06):
No. And then, you know, she obviously has this
great sense of self in this onearea of her life. And then I
guess there are some frailtiesand other areas of you know, I
guess we get to look at and hearabout.
Rohini Ross (07:18):
I think that's true for all of us that we all have
these areas of our life where wesee things very clearly we have
perspective, we recognize it'snot personal, we recognize that
we're okay, and we're fine. Andthen we have these other areas
of our life where we get caughtup, we take things more
seriously, we take it morepersonally, and we get really
(07:38):
insecure.
Angus Ross (07:39):
Yeah. And he only goes to the gym once a week, 52
times more than me in a year, Imight say,
Rohini Ross (07:48):
Me too. I wonder what his body looks like.
Angus Ross (07:52):
I don't know that you should be checking out his
body.
Rohini Ross (07:54):
I didn't, that's what I'm wondering.
Angus Ross (07:57):
Shouldn't even be wondering.
Rohini Ross (08:00):
I'm just curious, given his focus on her.
Angus Ross (08:04):
Okay.
Rohini Ross (08:08):
In the next segment, sorry, we done?
Angus Ross (08:11):
I'm done.
Rohini Ross (08:12):
In the next segment, I lay a little bit of
the foundation in terms of howthe work is going to be going
for these ongoing sessions. Andthen we get to hear a little bit
from Alicia about sort of whereshe does get caught up. The way
(08:33):
that we're working together, I'mgonna, you know, share things
with you that are educational,and point you insert in the
direction of what you alreadyknow, inside of you. So it's
like you have your own wisdom,and you're the expert in
yourself and your relationship.
But what happens is when you getkind of, you know, a lot of
insecure thinking going on, andyou get stirred up and that gets
(08:55):
really noisy. And it's harder tohear what you really know in
your heart, what you really knowto be true.
Alicia (09:02):
So when that like happens, the insecurity that I
was expressing this come aboutis from him telling me like, Oh,
I don't know if, you know, Iwant this to be my life forever.
I'm uncertain about arelationship. That's where those
insecurities are coming cuz I'mlike, we were good five seconds
ago, like what the hell.
Rohini Ross (09:20):
Yeah.
So you can hear what she justsaid that it looks to Alicia
like, Mateo is responsible forher feelings of insecurity that
that's where they're comingfrom. She doesn't recognize that
they're coming from inside ofherself at this point.
Angus Ross (09:36):
I know what a cad and a bounder.
Rohini Ross (09:41):
That's the opposite point that I tried to make.
Angus Ross (09:43):
I know, I'm trying to amplify your opposite point.
Rohini Ross (09:46):
No, no, that's the opposite of what I'm trying to
say
Angus Ross (09:48):
That he's not a cat isn't the bounder?
Rohini Ross (09:50):
I'm saying that he may be a cat or a bounder, but
it's not him being a cat or abounder that is causing her to
feel insecure. I
Angus Ross (10:00):
I know, I'm being ironic.
Rohini Ross (10:03):
I don't understand your irony
Angus Ross (10:05):
North Americans, you don't understand irony.
Rohini Ross (10:08):
Can you explain?
Angus Ross (10:09):
I am trying to point out that obviously he's not a
cabinet bounder that's that'ssomething that she's made up in
her imagination. She's makinghim responsible for her
suffering. So therefore in that,through that lens, he is a cat
and a bounder. So therefore I amsaying, what a cat in the
bounder from that problem fromthat perspective, irony, it, we
(10:33):
need to get it.
Rohini Ross (10:35):
So, from my perspective, he could be a cat
in a bounder, but she might be,but it still doesn't cause her
suffering, right.
Angus Ross (10:44):
So he may very well be a cat in the boundary. And
she does still doesn't need totake that personally. That's
right. And she he could couldshe could be totally inventing
with that.
Rohini Ross (10:57):
It could be one of those, one of those either. But
would you say that when you saidhe was a cabinet founder that
was you being sarcastic?
Angus Ross (11:06):
Yes. It would be a better way to frame it.
Rohini Ross (11:09):
I didn't get that point.
Angus Ross (11:10):
Okay.
Rohini Ross (11:12):
Well, we can move along now.
Angus Ross (11:14):
Okay. Carry on.
Rohini Ross (11:20):
What we're going to be looking at going forward is
how to actually empower her, I'mnot going to be condoning his
behavior or saying that whathe's doing is okay, are kind.
But I ultimately want to freeher from feeling that he has the
capacity to cause her to feelinsecure.
Angus Ross (11:40):
Yeah, I'm not talking about giving her boxing
gloves and giving her the toolsand means to fight back in an
adversarial way.
Rohini Ross (11:50):
No, is that what you think of when I say
empowering her?
Angus Ross (11:53):
Oh, no, some people might think that.
Rohini Ross (11:57):
I'm like, I'm talking about her being
empowered from within, whereshe's able to feel okay,
independent of what his behavioris.
Angus Ross (12:07):
Yes, I got that.
Alicia (12:12):
Like, he's even said like, well, like, right before
we decided to come here,whatever, kid send me like a
text like, Oh, I'm gonna moveout at the end of the month,
blah, blah. And in the hopes inthe hopes that nothing comes of
it because therapy wassuccessful. And like, You're
threatening me? Yeah. Andthat's, that's playing with my
head. And that's this emotionalrollercoaster you will be on.
Rohini Ross (12:33):
So we're gonna address that. And no, one's
perfect. No. So what I want tosay the more that you can see
that when he's doing that,that's a reflection of his fear
in the moment and his state ofmind, the less you're going to
take it personally. And here's agreat example. There would be
(12:55):
other women that their husbandwould say to them something
about their body, and they wouldget totally insecure. That
doesn't happen to you. Thereason that doesn't happen to
you is because you don't take itpersonally. You see, like,
That's his problem, I find thebig deal. But with this other
thing, and you could say, well,of course I get upset, but it's
(13:15):
No it's not, of course, ifyou're able to start to see like
when he's saying those kinds ofthings, when he's threatening
you. And he's, you know, doingany of that. That's a reflection
of his state of mind. And itactually doesn't mean anything
about the relationship, itactually doesn't mean anything
about his love for you. And itabsolutely doesn't mean anything
about you, the more you can seethat, the more neutral you're
(13:37):
going to be when he kind of getsinto that disturbed state
internally. So it's twofold.
Obviously, Angus and I are goingto address that because it's not
ideal.
Alicia (13:50):
Right.
Rohini Ross (13:50):
But because I don't know what his learning curve is
gonna look like he mightregress, you know, that can
happen, right? And he might getback into that state. But if you
see it for what it is, itdoesn't have to impact you in
the same way. You know, he'sjust really freaked out right
now. And he's internallydisturbed. And when he gets
(14:14):
scared, he says things likethat. All it means is that he's
scared in that moment.
Alicia (14:21):
I can, I can absolutely see that. I think from the way
that I was definitelyapproaching it is like, the
whole body image thing. It'slike, okay, whatever, just like
my body, that's me. But like,when it comes to our
relationship, like that'ssomething that's very serious to
me. And that's where then I'mgetting put into, like, Rocky,
you know, territory.
Rohini Ross (14:39):
And so does that help you to kind of see like,
it's actually no different thanthe body thing.
Alicia (14:44):
100% I mean, I've never, I would have never thought to
think of it that right.
Rohini Ross (14:49):
That's good. So that's the other thing that
we're looking for in this timetogether is what Haven't you
thought of before. That's a newone. That's really good and that
that will be really helpfulbecause You're going to be able
to like, as you said,relationships, you know, you're
with another person and anotherperson is going to have their
moods that go up and down,right? You're going to have
(15:10):
their insecurities, theirfrailties, there's weaknesses.
So our intention is for both ofyou to be on more common ground
by the time you leave here. Butyou're both still going to be
the same people. Yeah, you'regoing to have the same
frailties. But hopefully, theywon't come up as much, but
they're probably going to comeup. So what you can see from
(15:30):
what you know, you know, aboutyour husband is that when he
gets insecure, he kind of lashesout at you. And you one point
the finger at you. Now, as muchas I'd like to say, Oh, we can
fix that.
Alicia (15:44):
Right
Rohini Ross (15:45):
The actual benefit to the relationship is for you
to become immune to that. So I'mnot saying it's okay. And I'm
not saying I don't want that todecrease, but what's actually
really going to help therelationship is when you see
that for what it is, and it'snot taken personally, and so you
don't get destabilized?
Alicia (16:07):
Yeah, I'd love to get there for sure.
Rohini Ross (16:09):
Yeah. Well, you being able to see it and say, I
hadn't thought of it that way.
Like that's you getting there.
Like, that's you seeing like,the next time that I mean,
again, I don't want it Yeah, butlike I said, you know, people
are human, that the next timesomething like that happens.
Alicia (16:23):
yeah
Rohini Ross (16:24):
You're gonna remember we had this
conversation and you were like,Oh, he's destabilized.
Alicia (16:28):
It's funny. You mentioned that because like last
night, like when we were when Igot really upset over all this
stuff, or whatever we spokeabout, like him moving out
thing. It like dawned on me, I'mlike, crying wolf. Like you're
crying wolf right now. And it'sto throw me out of my orbit.
Rohini Ross (16:44):
Mm hmm. Well, I don't even know that it's that
intentional. I don't know, Ican't I can't read his mind. But
I wouldn't. I don't even thinkit's that intentional. Most
people just this is just knowingpeople not knowing him. But
knowing people. Like when theyget when people get scared. And
they don't understand thatthey're scared. And they're,
they just try to fix theirexperience. So if somebody have
(17:07):
an experience that feelsintense, and they're scared by
the intensity of thatexperience, they try to fix it.
And so one of the ways thatpeople try to fix their
experience, not a good way, butone of the ways that people do
it is they start to lash out atsomebody else, or they start to
place blame elsewhere, as a wayto try and fix what's going on
internally. Doesn't work. Yeah,makes a negative downward
(17:30):
spiral. But it's the bestattempt that they can do in that
moment. And this is somethingthat Angus is going to be
talking about, too. So for bothof you to really get on board
with that, each one of you, youand you can see this for
yourself. Each one of you isdoing the absolute best you can
in each moment.
Angus Ross (17:52):
Boom. Nice going, sister.
Rohini Ross (17:56):
Thank you. I mean, she had an insight.
Angus Ross (17:59):
Yeah, that's so cool. That's gonna be a hard act
to follow. Now for me too.
Rohini Ross (18:06):
Well, he had more of a slow burn on his insight
unfolding,
Angus Ross (18:10):
I guess. But that was fantastic. She, she she
really saw something and youcould see how her spirits lifted
as she got that sense of whatshe was saying.
Rohini Ross (18:21):
Or what you're pointing out is when she said
that comment. I've never thoughtabout it that way before. Right?
Yeah, I think that's helpful forour listeners to recognize that
when people step into newterritory and the unknown, it
usually feels that way that it'snew and fresh. And they haven't
seen it that way before.
Angus Ross (18:39):
Yeah, there's a and it's all about the cadence in
the voice. That could be a Yeah,I never really thought about it
like that way. And it's kind ofdismissive, but this was like,
Yeah, I never really thoughtabout it like that way before.
Rohini Ross (18:51):
And that's cool.
Angus Ross (18:52):
Yeah, really landed for I love that.
Rohini Ross (18:54):
Yeah. And I love that she was able to feel some
of that possibility, that senseof possibility that this area
that she was taking, soseriously, didn't have to be
taken so seriously that shecould see that she already has
the resilience inside of herrelated to other comments that
(19:15):
he makes. But these commentsabout leaving, they were like
kryptonite to her.
Angus Ross (19:20):
Yeah. And you could really get a sense of the
optimism that was coming intoplay for her at this point at
that point beyond that point,too.
Rohini Ross (19:27):
And I want to be really clear, and I did say a
once in this segment, but I wantto be very clear that I am not
condoning bad behavior. If he isbeing unkind to her or cruel to
her. I'm not saying that's okay.
Just put up with it. What I amsaying is that it doesn't mean
(19:48):
anything about her so that shecan have more internal
stability, more authenticempowerment and from that place
where she's not feelingvictimized and not suffering,
she will make whatever choicesare best for her in that
relationship.
Angus Ross (20:08):
Yeah, that's, that's fantastic. And I guess it's also
a case of them not feeling likethey're a doormat, she could
think, you know, I guess quiteoften you hear clients say,
Yeah, but that makes me feellike such a doormat. And really,
actually, it's not a doormat youget to the higher ground, it's
actually empowering to see thatthis other person is suffering.
And you are not as the case maybe, it's all about their state
(20:31):
of mind has nothing to do withyou. So it's actually like a
superpower. In a sense,
Rohini Ross (20:35):
it is, it's really empowering. And I just want to
make that clear, I love that youuse that phrase doormat, because
that's the opposite of what I'msaying. And from that place of
inner stability, perspective,calm, you know, it's up to her
whether she chooses to be in therelationship or not. And each
client obviously will make theirown choice based on that that's
(20:58):
not my job to tell them what todo. But it's getting to that
place of inner empowerment,where those choices are best
made, rather than running awayout of reactivity, or staying
out of fear of not being able toleave, it's finding that place
of inner equilibrium and peaceof mind. And then from there
(21:19):
from that place of love,ultimately, making the choice
about the relationship.
Angus Ross (21:25):
All aces, baby.
Rohini Ross (21:28):
Right, well, let's hear a little bit more.
So what's been happening isthat, you know, he's been, you
know, upset, destabilized,you've been upset, destabilize,
you've interacted, and then he'sdefinitely taking that
personally. You're sometimestaking it personally. And and
(21:48):
you're both getting more andmore destabilized. So as you
both get more and moredestabilized, the quality of
feeling in the relationship goesdown. Right? So it's just it's
it's a direct relationship, themore destabilized you get the
feeling and the relationshipgoes down. And what's happening
is the, the direct causation ofthat isn't clear. And so it's,
(22:15):
if because if it was clear,you'd like, Oh, we just need to
settle down. And we'd be fine.
Alicia (22:18):
Yeah.
Rohini Ross (22:19):
But it's looking like Well, no, I need to leave
or he needs to be different, or,you know, all these other things
need to get fixed. Yep. In orderfor the feeling to come back
into the relationship. And whatI'm saying is like, Well,
actually, it's a whole lot moresimple than that. And that it's
really about each one of yougetting more stable internally.
(22:40):
And naturally. You don't evenhave to work at it. Naturally,
the feelings come back in. Sowhat's your reaction to what I'm
saying?
Alicia (22:49):
That I want to do that?
Rohini Ross (22:51):
Yeah, yeah. And what are your thoughts about
like, I know that you'd want toit's appealing. It's, yeah,
resonates. But what are yourthoughts about the
practicalities of that?
Alicia (23:02):
I mean, I think it's very practical. I think it's
like approaches that, like Isaid, Never like thought of,
yeah, um, I think like goingback to the whole thing of, you
know, the body image versuslike, and looking at it in the
same perspective as the leavingthing, or when he's threatened
me, I think that that doessomewhat give me stability, like
(23:25):
it does call me in a sense thatthings are like, Alright, you're
just going through something andI get that I'm a stronger
person, I can handle a lot more.
And it's not a perspective, Iever thought that I should view
it as. Because I always thoughtlike, obviously, that's very
serious.
Rohini Ross (23:38):
Like, you're very serious, like, I'm gonna pay it.
I'm not gonna take thatseriously.
Alicia (23:41):
Yeah
Rohini Ross (23:42):
But I'm gonna take that seriously.
Alicia (23:43):
Yeah.
Rohini Ross (23:44):
What I'm saying is when he's destabilized, you
can't take anything he says,seriously.
Alicia (23:48):
Yeah.
Rohini Ross (23:49):
And the same goes for him too, when you're
destabilized. And he's takingwhat you're saying very
seriously, when you're upset.
Alicia (23:54):
100% I've always said to him, I was like, why didn't mean
it that way. I was just like, itwas in the heat of the moment.
Rohini Ross (23:59):
Yeah.
Alicia (24:00):
Then it just like, remains with him. And it's like,
what, but what, like you've saidthings you don't mean? Yeah,
yeah. And I think it it may haveto start, you know, even like,
just with me understanding thatmaybe it'll transpire as well,
like, because it's not affectingme. Then maybe then he'll see
that like, that's not gonnawork.
Rohini Ross (24:19):
It will fizzle out.
Yeah. What happens is, when,when, like, he says that and you
take it's like, he says thathe's destabilized. He says that
Alicia (24:30):
I take it like the atomic bomb.
Rohini Ross (24:31):
Yeah, you take it seriously. And then you're now
all stirred up and you saywhatever you say. And then it's
like that escalation.
Yeah.
That happens.
Alicia (24:41):
But or internalize it, and then it's eating me up.
Rohini Ross (24:43):
But yeah, but even if it doesn't be expressed, it's
still going up. And it willeventually come out in some way.
Alicia (24:51):
Which is what happens.
Rohini Ross (24:52):
Yeah, exactly. But look at it this way, then. So
he's getting off. You're fine.
You're feeling good. You'refine. He gets he's all stir up,
you have no control over thatmay have absolutely nothing to
do with you. He drops the bomb.
And you're like, oh, he's reallysuffering. This is what he does
when he's suffering. You don'tgo up here, you stay down here,
(25:15):
he's more likely to just comeback down, rather than each one
of you. Right? escalating.
Yeah.
So that's where it's, it's notthat you're responsible for what
he does, you're not responsiblefor him coming back down and
settling. But it's just how itworks. Because we're all
designed to settle. Yeah, likenobody enjoys being in a head up
(25:37):
escalated state of mind, nobodylikes that. And we never stay
there forever. We get there, westay there for as long as we
stay there, and then we comeback down. So what's been
happening is like, there's beensomeone's lighting the match,
and then gasoline has beenthrown on the match, and then
more sleeves are thrown a match.
So it's like, now someone canlike the match, whether it's you
or whether it's him. And theother person can have a much
(25:58):
better chance of not throwinggasoline on that match. And
what's the match going to do isjust going to go out?
Alicia (26:06):
Yeah.
Rohini Ross (26:06):
Right. And it's going to go out not with a huge
bang, which is going to fizzleout. Now, that is what decreases
volatility in relationships, andvolatility, and the escalation
that you're describing. It'spainful, because we say things
that we like to say we saythings that we don't mean, we
get desperate, and we start tothink of desperate measures.
(26:28):
And, and then our mind is filledwith all of that, because now we
got to figure out well, what ifhe is leaving me? Or how am I
going to leave her? You know,maybe I don't want to be
married, like, then your mind isfilled up with all that content
that you're now takingseriously?
Alicia (26:42):
Yeah.
Rohini Ross (26:44):
So in this section, I'm doing my best to help Alicia
see how the conflict escalatesin the relationship, and how
that damages rapport, and whatthe possibilities are, for her
to actually be able to get outof that dynamic that she's in
(27:08):
with Mateo, and actually havethat whole dynamic shift just by
her choosing not to engage withit.
Angus Ross (27:17):
Yeah, in a sense, I guess the invitation is for her
to go to the higher ground. Andfrom the point of view of seeing
how he's caught up, he'ssuffering. And if she engages
with him at that level, she justcomes down to that level. And I
both get locked into thesuffering together.
Rohini Ross (27:38):
And I think she's pretty clear that she can be
very volatile, too. So it's notlike he's the only one that's
engaging from a destabilizeplace. It sounds like they both
engage from that place. And sofor her to be able to see the
damage that that does, and thatreally all that's needed, is to
be able to wait out theemotional storm. And from that
(28:00):
place of inner calm, they canthen have conversations that
don't devolve into moreconflict, and hopefully see what
the possibilities are that areavailable to them.
Angus Ross (28:14):
Yeah, well, I mean, I do remain hopeful, because it
seems like she's seen something.
And now it's a case of her beingable to try this on for size and
see the fruits of that.
Rohini Ross (28:25):
Absolutely.
In this next section, I'm reallyemphasizing for Alicia the
importance of her being able tosee something for herself, that
will allow her to have adifferent experience in the
relationship. Even if Matteo isnot able to make the same level
(28:46):
of change that she does. Now,that doesn't mean that I'm not
hopeful for Matteo. And then I'mnot expecting him to have
learnings and transformation aswell. But I really want her to
see how her experience can bedifferent, even if he doesn't
significantly change, becauseher experience is coming from
(29:07):
inside of herself. And it'scoming from how she's relating
to her own thoughts. And thatshe has the ability to
stabilize, and to connect withher own sense of inner well
being and peace independently ofhim. And to me, that's really
important, because I want her torealize that she has that inner
(29:27):
freedom, and that she has thatcapacity. So there's two parts
to this one is and it seems likethis is you know, really key
point from this first session isfor you to just start to see,
because I don't know what kindof state of mind he's going to
be in when he leaves thatsession. Right?
Alicia (29:45):
Right.
Rohini Ross (29:45):
He might be more stirred up. He might not be we
don't know. So let's say hestood up, let's say he's like, I
can't believe in this. Like, I'mnot saying he said this to me.
What is the what is the point ofbeing here? I think I'm just
gonna leave now. Like justhypothetically, right? From this
conversation, you could be like,Oh, he's just really scared.
(30:05):
Yes, feeling really insecure?
It's not about you, it doesn't,you don't have to take anything
he's saying seriously, in thatmoment.
Yeah.
And from that observation, youwill relate to that. You relate
to yourself differently, andyou'll relate to him
differently. And you will feelbetter. Right? Because when you
(30:26):
don't take things personally,and when you kind of have
perspective, but you might evenfeel compassion for him. Yeah,
right. You might be like, God,he's really struggling, you
don't know what you'll see. ButI just want you to recognize his
state of mind. Recognizing thatwhen he's behaving in a certain
way, that's a reflection of hisstate of mind it. And if he's
(30:49):
got a stirred up state of mind,that's an indicator to not take
what he's saying, seriously.
Now, the same is true for you.
So just as much as I want you tokind of be able to see his state
of mind and know whether youwill want to take what he's
saying seriously or not. I don'tmean disrespectful.
Alicia (31:07):
Right, right.
Rohini Ross (31:07):
I don't mean like, Oh, I'm not, I don't want to
take any say. So it's just aninternal recognition. Right?
He's just a little crazy rightnow. And, you know, take
everything he says, with a grainof salt. Yeah, the same is true
for our own state of mind. If westart to recognize when our own
state of mind gets sped up, westart to see when we need to
take our thinking seriously, andwhen we don't. So for you, when
(31:31):
you're, you know, what I'mhearing is there can be kind of
this build that happens. So whenyou're starting to build, what
will interrupt the build isactually not his behavior? It's
actually going to be yourealizing that you're getting
stirred up, and that you don'tneed to take all these thoughts
that you're having seriously.
Alicia (31:50):
That definitely happens.
Like I catch myself tellingmyself like, Okay, stop. You're
overthinking. You'reoverthinking. Yeah, let it go.
Rohini Ross (31:56):
So you recognize it?
Alicia (31:57):
I, I've recognized before I've never have, but now
I'm recognizing it. I want torecognize it more.
Rohini Ross (32:04):
You'll get better.
Alicia (32:05):
But I do catch myself in moments like driving to work or
taking out the trash and beinglike, You're overthinking just
stop.
Rohini Ross (32:13):
Yes. That's great.
That's great. So you're alreadyseeing that. And it will just
naturally you'll see it more.
Because what happens is we getmore sensitive to the negative
feelings that come up with astirred up state of mind. So
before when you didn't evenrealize you would be in the
feeling of a stirred up state ofmind and not even know it. So
now you are driving to work andyour feelings are letting you
Angus Ross (32:35):
Feelings. Oh, you must use your feelings. I like
know Oh, I'm overthinking. Stopit! So you are getting more
sensitive to that and realizingoh I'm going down the rabbit
hole and I shouldnt go downthere. Your are on the right
track and you are gonna keepseeing more related to that. So,
the more you see about that theless you are going to get
escalated and the less likelythere is going to be blow outs
(32:58):
betweeen the two of you becauseyou wont get to the place you
need to blow out. I am notsaying never but it would be
less often and when it doeshappen,lets say last night for
example. When you are able tosee it trough the understanding
of you were really stir up, youwere taking your thinking
seriously, you were taking whathe was saying personally and
(33:21):
your behaviour made sense of howyou were seeing it. But today
you have a bigger perspective.
You can see that oh, that was mystired up thinking that I was
reacting from. Is not reallythe perspective that you could
see in this moment. What imhoping Alicia is taking on board
(33:42):
here is how she can use herfeelings as a signal to help her
understand what her quality ofher thinking is in the moment,
what her state of mind is. Andis a very simple way for her to
know how she is doing and wheteror not she needs to take a
break, needs to let herselfsettle. And the more she is
(34:04):
willing to use her feelings asthat signal the easier is for
her to recognice earlier andearlier when she needs to
practice selfcare, when sheneeds to let her mind relax and
so thats the main piece I hopeshe takes away, is that she has
this built in feedback mecanismthat she carries everywhere with
(34:27):
her and that will help guide herin a way that will allowed her
to not engage in the volatilityin the same way she has been.
(34:51):
that. That's that's theindicator that she's looking for
to know when she's out ofbalance or going south in a
state of mind. Check thosefeelings.
Rohini Ross (35:00):
Absalutely and they never lie, our feelings don't
lie to us. And we can all trustthem. I mean, this isn't just
for her, this is her, everysingle one of us, myself
included. And the more attune webecome, the more sensitive we
become, the more we recognizewhen we're getting stirred up.
And I'm not talking about beinghyper vigilant about paying
(35:22):
attention to feelings all thetime, what I'm recommending to
her is for her to just be ableto notice, not that she needs to
be checking in every 10 seconds,but just to to get used to the
feeling of when she's not in aplace of neutral. When she's
(35:43):
starting to leave that territoryand heading to a more sped up
place in her mind that she isable to detect that on a feeling
level, so that she can thencourse correct earlier rather
than later.
Angus Ross (35:57):
It's like on our new car we have the steering column
has the steering wheel willvibrate when we go out of lane.
It's like you start to see whatthose little indicators are that
show you you know, she's she'sgetting out of lane. I think for
me, actually, I've noticed formyself, that if I get anxious, I
(36:18):
get really anxious and I getreally sped up, I tend to get
kind of a tight a tight chest.
And that for me is that's myindicator. That's my steering
column vibrating. And then Iknow just kind of take my foot
off the gas in a way.
Rohini Ross (36:32):
That means letting your mind relax, I take my foot
off the gas, letting your mindstep off it.
Angus Ross (36:37):
Yeah, absolutely.
Alicia (36:43):
I guess my only question would be like, for instance,
like yesterday, Valentine's Dayand like, seeing like not, and
no attention from it. Like, howwould I approach that without
being like, Well, that was mean,or like, now I'm insecure about
those things?
Rohini Ross (36:59):
Well, what I would say is like, whenever you're
feeling hurt, the more that youcan see that that feeling of
hurt, is a reflection of youtaking something personally. And
it's not actually reflection ofwhat he's doing. Like, because
when he, when he said hisexplanation of that, it was kind
(37:22):
of like I don't want to lead heron, like, yeah, kindness in
that, right. So it wasn't, I'mdoing this as a few to hurt her.
He's like, I don't want to leadher on. So I'm not going to give
her my mixed messages. I hearthe kindness of that. So there's
a there was a misunderstandingthat was going on inside of you
making it mean this, this andthis, when actually he was doing
(37:43):
it out of his own logic of whatmade sense to him not to be me.
So your hurt wasn't actuallycoming from what he was doing.
It was coming from the meaningthat you were giving it. Does
that make sense?
Alicia (37:56):
It does.
Rohini Ross (37:57):
And so you're hurt.
You don't have control? Like oneof the things that you said in
the other room? Which I don'tnecessarily I don't agree with.
And I think it might be helpfulto talk about it, because I
think it might be holding on toa standard. This is not
reasonable. But you said we canchoose how we feel. And we may
(38:19):
be able to influence that. LikeI absolutely agree that if, you
know, I realize I'm going downthat rabbit hole of negative
thinking, and I wake up andlike, Oh, I don't want to go
down there like right, there'ssome influence there. But what
about those times when I don'teven realize I'm in the rabbit
hole? I don't really have achoice then.
(38:41):
Yeah.
Right? And so just like thatexample, from last night, like
you were hurt, it didn't feellike you had a choice about
being hurt. So you didn't reallyget to choose how you felt it
just occurred to you. Right? SoI think having that be
understood is just a lot morehumane.
Alicia (38:59):
Mm hmm.
Rohini Ross (39:00):
And then you're not holding yourself to a standard
that you should always befeeling good or always able to
control your feelings. Andyou're also not holding him to
that standard, either. Because,you know, it's it's, to me, it's
just an unreasonable expectationfor yourself or for him for any
human being really, you justcan't control our thoughts. So
because we can't control ourthoughts. We can't control our
(39:23):
feelings because they come fromour thoughts. But what you can
recognize is like, for example,using yesterday's Valentine's
Day, incident, when you'refeeling hurt, the more that you
can see like, Oh, this is areflection of my state of mind.
It's coming from me. It's notactually coming from him. Then
(39:48):
there's going to be morekindness to letting yourself
settle and addressing it onceyou're a little bit more clear.
Does that make sense? I can seeyour face kind of changed when
I'm talking with you,
Alicia (40:01):
Just like if I had approached it differently, like,
maybe he could have seemed likeit did hurt my feelings.
Rohini Ross (40:07):
Yeah. But I'm not saying this. So you're gonna be
hard on yourself?
Alicia (40:10):
No, no.
Rohini Ross (40:11):
Yeah. So I really want you to
Alicia (40:13):
Yeah, no, it's just like it's more. So just like, I wish
I would have approached it thatway.
Rohini Ross (40:19):
Well, now you're seeing the possibility of
approaching in a different way.
You didn't see that then. So youcouldn't have done that then.
But the good news is this is alearning, you're going to be
able to see that going forward.
Alicia (40:30):
Yeah.
Rohini Ross (40:30):
Right. So you're like, oh, you're, you're caught
up in your thinking you'refeeling hurt, you'll be able to
see like, oh, there's anopportunity for me to take care
of myself here and realize, I'mgetting caught up in my own
story, and then approach it in adifferent way, and probably get
a different result.
Alicia (40:48):
Yeah.
Rohini Ross (40:49):
And to me, that's going to be the theme of what's
going on between the two of you,is that the way that you've been
trying to approach things withhim has not been working. But
now you're seeing a possibilityfor how you might approach
things differently, they'llprobably get a different result.
Alicia (41:07):
Yeah. And I feel like I couldn't, you know, reflect
across the board, like everyrelationship in my life.
Rohini Ross (41:13):
Oh, there. And you know what? That realization,
when you see something genericlike that, that's huge. Like,
that's, you're seeing somethingreally profound, because it's
now you're recognizing, this issomething that I do as a as a
general thing. Yeah. And you'reseeing the opportunity for
something to be different. Andso that, that sort of
(41:36):
generalized, different way ofbeing is going to change every
area of your life.
Alicia (41:41):
Yeah, I can definitely see that.
Rohini Ross (41:47):
I love that she got to the point, where she was able
to see that the way that sherelates to Matteo is not
specific to him, she was able tostep far enough back and
recognize that the way she'sshowing up there also relates to
how she shows up in otherrelationships in her life. And I
(42:09):
think that when a client is ableto take that step back and see
the big picture in in that way,I feel really hopeful because
it's no longer about the rightand wrong in the relationship.
She's actually reflecting on howshe shows up. And when she sees
(42:29):
how there's similarities in allareas of her life, that means
that she's really looking atthis in a much more universal
way and much more philosophicalway. And so I feel quite excited
that she's actually having asignificant shift related to
this.
Angus Ross (42:48):
Yeah, that was the pivotal moment for me to
actually, you know, she's been,they've both been somewhat
narrow, very narrow in theirfocus on the relationship. But I
just felt in that moment, shejust really pulled back and got
the wide shot, got the fullperspective of what this
understanding is pointing to.
And, and, you know, I've hadthat experience with other
clients, they see theuniversality of it, as you say,
(43:09):
and that's like, Yeah, boy,yeah, we got we got where we
need to get to. And it's reallyexciting, actually, as a coach
to sort of witness that.
Rohini Ross (43:20):
Yeah, it absolutely is. And there were two other
points that I just want to pointout. Points that I want to point
out? to other themes that Ithink are important, and one of
them is something that we'regoing to be revisiting over and
over again, it's something thatcan be difficult for people to
(43:43):
really see and and recognize howit shows up in their life. But
that point is how we don't feelthe outside circumstance. We
feel what we're relating to, inour own mind. And so this is a
(44:04):
180 degree shift from whereshe's been looking at Mateo is
the source of her suffering.
He's been responsible for howshe feels. And here I am saying,
well, actually matej was acircumstance and you're not
experiencing that. Everythingyou experience comes through the
filter of your own thoughts.
(44:27):
That's what you're identifyingwith and you're making that
meaning up. It's not coming fromhim. And I really appreciate how
open minded she was and how ableshe was to hear that in that
moment. There wasn't anypushback. But I think this is a
pivotal point for thatempowerment piece. For anybody
(44:47):
to be able to see that weexperience. What we're
identifying within our own mind.
That means that we can no longerbe a victim to what's happening
outside of us. Tat doesn't mean,as I've said earlier, that we
have to stay in the situationthat we can't make changes. But
to understand that ourexperience comes from inside of
(45:09):
us, is actually reallyliberating.
Angus Ross (45:15):
Yeah, I mean, it's, it's quite a quantum shift in
consciousness, so much so thatshe's probably gonna, she's
probably going to go in and outof this understanding from this
point forward, and maybe in asense, as we all do, but she's
seen a lot, and it's gonna takea while probably for this to
really anchor in. But I feel,you know, it's, I feel really
(45:36):
optimistic, it's awesome that,you know, you've got to that
place with her.
Rohini Ross (45:40):
And the other point that I think is really key,
because there can be amisunderstanding that, what,
what I'm talking about is justanother way to manage your
thoughts and feelings. And Iwanted to make that really clear
to her that this understandingthat I'm sharing is not about
giving her the capacity tochoose what feelings she has to
(46:03):
choose what thoughts she has,it's, it's so much work to try
and manage our experience andtry and manage her thoughts.
It's ultimatelycounterproductive, because it's
so exhausting. And we getstressed out. And I'm saying
this from firsthand experience,it's not like I haven't tried
this myself. So I really wantedher to understand that this
(46:26):
wasn't about being able tochoose to be in a good feeling
all the time. That actually, thegreater freedom and the greater
blessing is to see that feelingscome and go. And we don't need
to control them, because we'resafe no matter what feeling
we're having. So it's not as ifMatteo should be feeling better,
(46:48):
and he should be working atfeeling better, or that she
should be more positive and lessangry. It's that whatever
feelings are present, when we'reopen and relaxed around them,
they just come and they go, likethe weather comes and goes, and
there's no need to fix them, orchange them. And when we're open
around our feelings when we'renot scared by them, there's so
(47:12):
much less acting out from areactive state, because we
understand that we're caught upthat we're in a stirred up state
of mind that the intensity ofthe emotions are going to come
and they're going to go, theintensity is going to come and
it's going to go, and there's noneed to act from that place to
feel better. Because we'renaturally designed to have
(47:32):
emotions move through us. Andall we need to do is allow that
natural design to do what itdoes. And ultimately, we're
going to come back to a place ofstability and peace and balance
within ourselves. And the morewe let go and don't try to
manage our experience, thequicker that seems to happen.
Angus Ross (47:52):
Yeah, so in a nutshell, it's not about a
technique or a process, there'sno magic bullet, it is an
understanding, understandingthat it is an understanding, and
realizing that's as simple asthat.
Rohini Ross (48:08):
Yeah, it's true.
And the other thing I noticed inher and I don't know if you
noticed it, Angus, but shereally started to settle, I'm
gonna just include a little clipwhere she speaks to that. But,
you know, we're doing thepodcast looking at the
recordings. And when you look atrecordings, in the software, you
see the volume, the decibellevel of what a person is
(48:31):
speaking by this, these whitelines. And I can see based on
her decibel level, from how thesession progresses, that at this
point in the session, she's muchsofter, quieter, more settled,
and, And that, to me, is anindicator that she's getting
more reflective, her nervoussystem is settling down. She's
(48:52):
really listening. And she's notin the fight flight or freeze
mode, she's, she's just gettingmore relaxed, calm, balanced and
receptive.
Angus Ross (49:04):
It's like you've got a new whole new science at your
disposal to track your clientsstate of well being.
Rohini Ross (49:10):
I just noticed it.
Alicia (49:17):
I definitely feel like a sense of calmness. And just like
opening up my head to like, justviewing things differently, like
I know that I can recognize Ican feel a certain way. And
maybe I don't have to, likeexpress it immediately so that I
can like, calm down from it andsee it correctly.
Rohini Ross (49:34):
Yeah, your your feeling state is going to come
and it's going to go Yeah. Andwhen you see that and you
recognize like, Oh, it's notabout immediately addressing
this thing with him because I'mactually feeling my own state of
mind in this moment. You'll bemore likely to write out that
wave and then address it onceyou're more settled.
Angus Ross (49:55):
Yeah, I really see what you mean. She's really come
back down to earth here. Shestarted. Off way out in the
stratosphere and she's reallysettled down. It's, it's really
lovely to see.
Rohini Ross (50:06):
Yeah. And hopefully she'll recognize that feeling
state for herself and get morefamiliar with it and comfortable
with it. And it'll be easier tocome back to again and again and
again.
Angus Ross (50:17):
Yeah, hallelujah.
Rohini Ross (50:22):
Now, I can really relate to Alicia, I have a lot
of empathy and compassion forher, and how personally, she's
been taking Mateos threats toleave. And, you know, the reason
why is because I remember howsensitive I used to be in our
(50:42):
relationship and how, personallyI would take your upset. And
it's really wonderful to be ableto have a new foundation inside
of myself at this point, whereI'm more resilient in the face
of my emotions and in the faceof your emotions. And I'm really
(51:02):
hoping that Alicia can take thaton board for herself. And
ultimately, what allowed me tomake that shift was that I was
able to see how you weren'tresponsible for how I was
feeling, I was able to see howmuch noise I had going on in my
head, that was self deprecating,that was painful. And that even
(51:26):
though maybe you would be angry,that would be what I would be
listening to, it wasn't youranger that was causing me to
feel upset. It was all of thethoughts telling me that I
needed to be better, I wasn'tgood enough if I was a better
woman wife, that you wouldn't beangry in that moment. And it
(51:47):
ultimately was, was my own mindthat was taking me down. And
when I got to have some distancefrom that, through understanding
that I was feeling my ownthoughts, I was able to have
perspective on them in a waythat they didn't grip me in the
same way. And I was able to dropinto deeper feelings of quiet
(52:10):
and peace inside of myself. Andin that space, I realized, I
felt safe, I felt Okay, I feltgood enough. And that was not
coming from outside of me. Itwas 100% coming from me,
experiencing that from withinmyself that could not be given
to me. And in that experience,it completely shifted my ability
(52:34):
to stay stable in the face ofother things going on in my life
in the face of you know, thingsgoing on at work or things going
on with you and ourrelationship. And it's such a
different foundation that I nowlive within that I'm so grateful
for. And I'm hoping that she'sable to get a taste of that,
(52:57):
and, and live more fully intothat so that she can have that
as a foundation for herself. Andultimately, the reason that
we're doing this podcast is thatwe're hoping that everybody who
listens gets a taste of that andfinds that space within
themselves more fully so thatyou know you as a listener can
live more from there in yourlife.
(53:25):
Thank you so much for listeningto revolving love. If you
enjoyed this podcast, please letus know by subscribing on
iTunes. And we would love foryou to leave a review there.
Angus Ross (53:36):
iTunes reviews will steer people to this podcast who
need help with theirrelationships.
Rohini Ross (53:42):
If you would like to learn more about our work and
their online rewildingcommunity, please visit our
website, therewilders.org
Angus Ross (53:50):
Thanks for listening. Join us next week.
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