In this compelling continuation of our RTO Superhero Podcast series, we further dissect the intricacies of the proposed changes to the Standards for RTOs, slated for enforcement on January 1, 2025. Lauren Hollows of Aniwaya Education Services, alongside Angela Connell-Richards from Vivacity Coaching and Consulting, and Maree Thorne from Compliance Assist, dive deeper into the principles of assessment and rules of evidence within the new standards.
Our discussion begins with an exploration of the nuanced language changes within the principles of assessment and rules of evidence, contemplating the impact of these adjustments on fairness, reasonable adjustment, and reassessment. Angela initiates the conversation with insights into how these changes are poised to foster a more inclusive learning environment, aligning with additional clauses focused on disability, First Nations, and support services.
Maree offers a perspective on the significant shift of embedding the principles of assessment and rules of evidence directly within the standards, emphasizing the standards' increased prescriptiveness and the expectation for practical application of skills and knowledge in varied contexts.
As the dialogue unfolds, we consider how these changes place a renewed focus on the assessor's role, suggesting a potential shift towards greater responsibility in making individual assessment judgments. This discussion prompts a broader conversation about the necessity for RTOs to integrate trainers more closely into the design and feedback process of assessment tools, underscoring the importance of upskilling trainers to enhance their understanding of assessment principles.
This episode delves into the operational challenges RTOs may face, including aligning assessment tools with the diverse needs of their learner cohorts and ensuring compliance with the new standards. Through our exploration, we aim to provide RTO professionals with actionable advice and insights on preparing for the upcoming standards, from evidence collection to process adjustments, to better meet the needs of their learners and the new regulatory framework.
Join us for this enlightening discussion as we navigate the future of vocational education and training standards, offering a blend of expert analysis and practical guidance. Don't miss the next installment of our series fo
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Lauren Hollows (00:00):
Hey guys, this is Lauren Hollis for Aniwaya
Education Services and I'm veryfortunate to be continuing our
series on assessment for the newRTO standards in our roundtable
series with Angela fromVivacity and Maree from
Compliance Assist.
So, guys, we did briefly touchon in our last episode, 1.3,
which was all about testing.
I recommend that you guys goand watch that episode.
(00:22):
It'll be linked here somewhere,like that.
I'm interested to get into someof the language that they talk
about in the principles ofassessment rules of evidence,
because the actual principlesthemselves haven't really
changed.
We've still got the same terms.
However, it's interesting to seethe way that they've changed or
(00:45):
, I guess, elaborated on whatthey are like, on how they've
described it.
So, for example, when we havethings like, you know, fairness,
taking into account learners'need, including reasonable
adjustment and, whereappropriate, enabling
reassessment if necessary, Ithink that some of those like
(01:05):
little changes there are quiteinteresting, particularly when
we look at it across differentenvironments, like when we look
at it from a financialperspective.
If we look at reassessment, asan example, in the cryos
environment, that's oftencharged in a fee, you know.
Is there some wiggle room there, like what happens when an RTO
(01:27):
is not enabling assessmentbecause of the financial needs
of the learner.
Does that meet in with thefairness and equity that we've
got now very much built intothese standards?
So just I'd be interested toget your kind of initial
thoughts on principles ofassessment, rules of evidence
and some of the specificlanguage that has been brought
into those.
Angela, if you want to kick usoff, Okay, thank you.
Angela Connell-Richards (01:51):
So when we look at this standard or
this clause in particular, it'sfoundational in fostering an
inclusive learning environmentand I think it ties into some of
the other standards that wehave some new ones that we've
got, which is now we've gotdisability, we've got First
Nations that are also in there,and then we've also got some
(02:14):
changes to support services andthings like that.
I think that's where this isgoing to tie in is with those
other new clauses that we have.
That's going to be the majorchange from my perspective, and
much more focus on, you know,those rules of evidence and
principal assessment and howthey do, how you have adjusted
(02:37):
your training and assessmentback to what I said in the last
episode about your learnercohort and who is defined within
your training and assessmentstrategy.
So I think it's more of a okay,how are we identifying our
learners' needs and thenadjusting that training and
assessment to meet their needs?
And I think those other clausesare going to come in that are
(03:00):
around support services.
So that's my perspective.
Maree Thorne (03:03):
Absolutely, Maree.
My thoughts on it, Lauren, arethe fact that this, in the
previous version of the standard, the standard itself was, you
know, simply conduct accordingto you know, these rules of
evidence and principles ofassessment this standard now
(03:25):
actually is, and sorry, in theprevious you know it was.
Then you go to the guide to seewhat those you know a
definition or examples of whatthose particular principles of
assessment, rules of evidenceyou know actually are, or
examples of this has now got theactual rules and principles of
assessment, rules of evidenceyou know actually are examples
(03:45):
of this.
Has now got the actual rulesand principles of assessment in
the standard itself, and for methat is a fairly significant
change.
So it's actually specifying,you know.
I look at 1.4a3 just as anexample and it says you know,
know, validity.
(04:05):
So the principle of assessmentvalidity is the assessments of
skills and knowledge isintegrated with practical
application and would enable thelearner to demonstrate these
skills and knowledge in similarsituations, situations Whoa,
straight away.
That one to me, is a bit veryprescriptive in terms of there
(04:29):
is an expectation of.
You know that principle ofassessment is really about, you
know, integration of knowledge,integration of skills and
application in a variety ofcontexts, et cetera.
So now the actual principles ofassessment are not just a
heading of fairness, flexibility, validity, because these words
(04:53):
are actually now in thestandards themselves.
So that would be what you knowyou're looking at if you were
coming along to audit, notsimply you know the information
that was used as a guide.
Does that make some sense?
Lauren Hollows (05:12):
Yeah, and what I'm hearing from both of you is
that obviously, I mean, both ofyou have spent a lot of time
digesting the new standards as awhole and I think that you know
this standard.
What I'm hearing from both ofyou is that kind of, with this
standard, it's not so much thechanges within the particular
language of this standard wethink that principles of
assessment, rules of evidence,they are what they are, they're
(05:34):
integral to our industrystandards in terms of equity and
well-being and a stronger focuson training and um, you know, a
stronger focus on likecontextualization and really
thinking about and consideringlearners.
That's probably more where thisparticular standard, so you
(05:57):
know your, your policy as such,but a renewed focus for RTOs on
do my tools really meet theneeds of my cohort?
Do we have processes that allowfor that to occur?
And then, when we then takethat to the next point, how do
(06:20):
RTOs?
You know, if I'm an RTO and I'mlooking at all of this and I
know I've got to be compliantwith all of this from 1-1-25,
what are some of the pieces ofevidence that I need to start
collecting?
What are some of the processchanges that I need to be making
in order to account for that.
What's your advice to RTOs whoare looking at this and kind of
(06:43):
going okay?
What's your advice to RTOs whoare looking at this and kind of
going okay, but what does thatpractically mean for me in terms
of my assessment tools andthings like that?
Angela Connell-Richards (06:51):
One thing that I find very
interesting within this.
So if we look at 1.4b,assessors make individual
assessment judgments that arejustified based on the following
rules of evidence it's more ofa focus on the assessor now, not
just the RTO.
Maree Thorne (07:12):
The assessment.
Angela Connell-Richards (07:14):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So I think there's going to bea lot more responsibility on the
assessors when it comes tothese standards now, and I think
that's really going to tie inwith the workforce development
plan and having that in place aswell, and the responsibility of
trainers and assessors when itcomes to workforce development.
(07:36):
This is actually saying now theassessors are responsible for
the assessment judgments, whichshould have always been that way
, but it's actually clarifiednow within the clause.
Maree Thorne (07:53):
And I think, Angela, that even goes to, goes
to, you know, 1.4a thatassessment is conducted in a way
not that the assessment systemitself, it's, it's that it is
actually conducted in a way thatis consistent with these
principles, more on the assessor, on the actual process, on the
(08:13):
practice of it, as opposed tothe, the um, the tools, the, the
um methods, etc.
Yeah, and I think that I thinkthat by putting the words,
rather than just saying, isconsistent way with, you know,
with the principles ofassessment, of fairness, of
flexibility, I think that thestandard is trying to actually
(08:35):
really spell out theinterpretation of fairness, the
interpretation of flexibility,the interpretation of validity,
you know, and reliability,obviously, to go.
Well, you know, it's not achoose your own adventure as to
what you think these principlesmean.
Here is what we mean by theprinciple of fairness, because
(09:02):
otherwise, you know, becausethey put those words into a
legislative standard as opposedto previously having it as the
principles of assessment and therules of evidence in the
legislative standard.
And then you have the what doesyou know?
How are they interpreted in aguide?
Now it's actually saying thisis the interpretation of it, you
(09:24):
know, don't come up with yourown.
Here's the one that we'regiving you.
Angela Connell-Richards (09:30):
So I'm really interested in how ASQA
will interpret this as well whenyou write the user guide.
Lauren Hollows (09:36):
Do you think that from?
I mean it's one of theinteresting components just from
an operational perspective onthis is how I mean there has
been a separation over the yearsof compliance and trainers and
what their duties are and whattheir responsibilities are.
Do you think that in yourinterpretations?
of this one of the focuses forthis year for RTOs does need to
(09:57):
be looking at having processeswhere trainers can be more
integrated into the design andfeedback process and also
potentially really an upskillingof trainers as well.
To go back to, you know,helping trainers to really
understand their units, toreally understand, you know
those, what the principles ofassessment are and how that
(10:18):
looks and what the rules ofassessment, like what the rules
of evidence are and how thatlooks.
I mean, in my opinion, I stillthink I mean, every year I do a
series on the principles ofassessment and the rules of
evidence.
It's because every year itcontinues to be an area where
you know, trainers come to meand they go.
You know, once one side goes, Idon't really, I still really
(10:41):
don't understand this and thenthe other side goes.
I'm really frustrated because I, I know I have a responsibility
on these tools, but I, ourprocesses are such that I
actually don't, I can, can'thave any say in.
So you know, how do you?
You know, what advice do wegive to RTOs and to trainers in
(11:02):
those situations to kind of go,well, this is, this is kind of
going to be a way that you'regoing to have to negotiate that
and you've got the next, youknow, 10 months to kind of
really bring that in and makesome bring that in and make some
changes to your organizational.
You know structure and you knowculture as to how that's all
(11:22):
going
Angela Connell-Richards (11:23):
Yeah, I've been teaching.
Every year I deliver a workshopon assessment validation and
explain the rules of evidenceand principles of Assessment and
it is an area where there is alot of non-compliance has been
historically.
So it's not just trainers andassessors understanding, it's
also the RTOs understanding howthey work.
And the way I explain it is wehave our unit of competency,
(11:48):
then we have our rules ofevidence and principle of
assessment and they all layerover each other and we use the
rules of evidence and principalof assessment to identify
whether we're delivering theunit of competency to meet those
requirements.
So it's really looking at theunit of competency, breaking
down the performance criteriaand saying in our assessment
(12:10):
tool, are we valid, are wereliable, are we meeting the
requirements of the rules ofevidence and principal of
assessment?
And I think once people see itas it's an overlay it's not
separate, it's an overlay of theperformance criteria and the
assessment conditions within theunit then they're able to get a
(12:30):
better understanding.
And that's how I explain it totrainers and assessors.
And I think now, moving forwardwith the new and you can start
doing this now but movingforward with the new clauses,
trainers should be taking thatinto consideration while they're
conducting assessment, trainingand assessment, and how are
they applying that in theirdelivery of their training as
(12:52):
well as conducting theirassessments?
And start thinking about how dothe rules of evidence and
principal assessment overlay andinterlay into that unit of
competency um, all right, yeah,no, I cannot disagree.
Maree Thorne (13:09):
But and I think it sort of takes a step back into
the in our previous um sessionwe were talking about that
testing, um, and that sort ofwhole concept of you know,
testing, you know, and I thinkthat that sort of talks to it as
well you've got to understandwhat the principles are, you've
got to understand what the rulesof evidence are, you've got to
(13:30):
understand what the actualrequirements, the training
package are, in order that youcan go.
Well, is this going to work?
Is this going to make sure thatyou know the evidence I collect
is going to be?
You know what I need it to be,or the you know it's being done
in such a way that you know it'sfair and it's equitable and
(13:52):
it's flexible and all the restof it.
And can I be flexible?
And I think that you know thatwhole testing process is really
is so critical to this process.
Um, and you know the number oftimes, to be honest, I've picked
up an assessment at an RTO andthought I haven't got the first
clue what it is I'm supposed tobe doing.
(14:14):
Um, oh, you know, as a learner.
So you know, put my, I like toput my learners you know shoes
on and go.
Well, I can't work out what I'm.
What am I supposed to be doing?
Or how on earth am I going todo that, or um, and then we put
my assessor's hat on and go.
I can't figure it out either.
Angela Connell-Richards (14:32):
I can't conduct it.
Maree Thorne (14:34):
Yeah, so how on earth can I conduct it?
And then, you know, lauren, thepoint that you were making is
that business about?
You know, we've tested thesetools, because, you know, 1.3 is
about testing the tools, and itspecifically says tools.
And then we come down to 1.4,where we're actually talking
(14:54):
about conducting the assessment.
And you know, again, this isone of the things that comes up
repeatedly.
You know the assessor, who yougo well, hang on a minute, but
this tool says this, but you'vedone something completely
different.
Oh yeah, that didn't work.
You know I couldn't get that towork, or you know they couldn't
understand whatever.
So, so, making that consistencybetween them as well, and
(15:17):
assessors understanding thatyou're going to be conducting
this, can you?
Um, you know, you know youlearn it's, you know, can you
actually do this?
Because, if not, we need tostep back to 1.3 again, um, and
go, well, hey, this doesn't work, it doesn't achieve what I need
it to achieve, but you're notauthorized to just go ahead and
(15:37):
just, you know, um, do youchoose your own adventure and do
it yourself?
Um, so so, yeah, I, I thinkthat you know, again, this is an
area that has always beenproblematic, and I'm not sure
how much it's improving, to behonest, yes, it will be very
interesting to see how we'regoing to be audited against this
(16:02):
and what will be different.
Angela Connell-Richards (16:05):
It was interesting.
Lauren and I, at the last VELGconference, actually spoke to
some of the auditors theauditors and they didn't know
what the hell they were going tointerpret it because they had
actually the people that wespoke to said it's so ambiguous,
all of the standards, theydon't know how they're going to
be auditing against them,particularly so a lot of the
(16:28):
changes in the standards was tobreak it down for big and small
RTOs.
So it's ambiguous because ofthat, because it's going to be
different for a different sizeRTO.
So, yeah, it's going to beinteresting.
I think it's going to be moreof an onus on the trainer and
(16:50):
assessor to be taking intoconsideration what are the rules
of evidence and principalassessment, not just on the RTO.
I think it's the trainersreally thinking about how am I
applying the rules of evidenceand principal assessment whilst
I'm delivering my training?
It's going to be instead ofjust validation, we're
(17:11):
validating and we're integrating.
It should be in theirday-to-day delivery of their
training and assessment.
How am I applying this?
Lauren Hollows (17:20):
I think that's going to take us brilliantly
into our next question.
Guys, you'll be able to seethat video out in just a couple
of days.
We hope that you enjoyed thisone.
Also, make sure that you checkout our first video on Standard
1.3.
Again, I am lucky enough to behere with Angela from Vivacity
and Maree from Compliance Assist, and you can find all of their
(17:41):
details, including being able tofollow them on their socials,
just below.
Guys, we will be back in usjust a few minutes for you, guys
in three or four days.
My name is Lauren HollowsAniwaya Education Services.
Hey guys, this is Lauren Hollis for Aniwaya
Education Services and I'm veryfortunate to be continuing our
series on assessment for the newRTO standards in our roundtable
series with Angela fromVivacity and Maree from
Compliance Assist.
So, guys, we did briefly touchon in our last episode, 1.3,
which was all about testing.
I recommend that you guys goand watch that episode.
(00:22):
It'll be linked here somewhere,like that.
I'm interested to get into someof the language that they talk
about in the principles ofassessment rules of evidence,
because the actual principlesthemselves haven't really
changed.
We've still got the same terms.
However, it's interesting to seethe way that they've changed or
(00:45):
, I guess, elaborated on whatthey are like, on how they've
described it.
So, for example, when we havethings like, you know, fairness,
taking into account learners'need, including reasonable
adjustment and, whereappropriate, enabling
reassessment if necessary, Ithink that some of those like
(01:05):
little changes there are quiteinteresting, particularly when
we look at it across differentenvironments, like when we look
at it from a financialperspective.
If we look at reassessment, asan example, in the cryos
environment, that's oftencharged in a fee, you know.
Is there some wiggle room there, like what happens when an RTO
(01:27):
is not enabling assessmentbecause of the financial needs
of the learner.
Does that meet in with thefairness and equity that we've
got now very much built intothese standards?
So just I'd be interested toget your kind of initial
thoughts on principles ofassessment, rules of evidence
and some of the specificlanguage that has been brought
into those.
Angela, if you want to kick usoff, Okay, thank you.
Angela Connell-Richards (01:51):
So when we look at this standard or
this clause in particular, it'sfoundational in fostering an
inclusive learning environmentand I think it ties into some of
the other standards that wehave some new ones that we've
got, which is now we've gotdisability, we've got First
Nations that are also in there,and then we've also got some
(02:14):
changes to support services andthings like that.
I think that's where this isgoing to tie in is with those
other new clauses that we have.
That's going to be the majorchange from my perspective, and
much more focus on, you know,those rules of evidence and
principal assessment and howthey do, how you have adjusted
(02:37):
your training and assessmentback to what I said in the last
episode about your learnercohort and who is defined within
your training and assessmentstrategy.
So I think it's more of a okay,how are we identifying our
learners' needs and thenadjusting that training and
assessment to meet their needs?
And I think those other clausesare going to come in that are
(03:00):
around support services.
So that's my perspective.
Maree Thorne (03:03):
Absolutely, Maree.
My thoughts on it, Lauren, arethe fact that this, in the
previous version of the standard, the standard itself was, you
know, simply conduct accordingto you know, these rules of
evidence and principles ofassessment this standard now
(03:25):
actually is, and sorry, in theprevious you know it was.
Then you go to the guide to seewhat those you know a
definition or examples of whatthose particular principles of
assessment, rules of evidenceyou know actually are, or
examples of this has now got theactual rules and principles of
assessment, rules of evidenceyou know actually are examples
(03:45):
of this.
Has now got the actual rulesand principles of assessment in
the standard itself, and for methat is a fairly significant
change.
So it's actually specifying,you know.
I look at 1.4a3 just as anexample and it says you know,
know, validity.
(04:05):
So the principle of assessmentvalidity is the assessments of
skills and knowledge isintegrated with practical
application and would enable thelearner to demonstrate these
skills and knowledge in similarsituations, situations Whoa,
straight away.
That one to me, is a bit veryprescriptive in terms of there
(04:29):
is an expectation of.
You know that principle ofassessment is really about, you
know, integration of knowledge,integration of skills and
application in a variety ofcontexts, et cetera.
So now the actual principles ofassessment are not just a
heading of fairness, flexibility, validity, because these words
(04:53):
are actually now in thestandards themselves.
So that would be what you knowyou're looking at if you were
coming along to audit, notsimply you know the information
that was used as a guide.
Does that make some sense?
Lauren Hollows (05:12):
Yeah, and what I'm hearing from both of you is
that obviously, I mean, both ofyou have spent a lot of time
digesting the new standards as awhole and I think that you know
this standard.
What I'm hearing from both ofyou is that kind of, with this
standard, it's not so much thechanges within the particular
language of this standard wethink that principles of
assessment, rules of evidence,they are what they are, they're
(05:34):
integral to our industrystandards in terms of equity and
well-being and a stronger focuson training and um, you know, a
stronger focus on likecontextualization and really
thinking about and consideringlearners.
That's probably more where thisparticular standard, so you
(05:57):
know your, your policy as such,but a renewed focus for RTOs on
do my tools really meet theneeds of my cohort?
Do we have processes that allowfor that to occur?
And then, when we then takethat to the next point, how do
(06:20):
RTOs?
You know, if I'm an RTO and I'mlooking at all of this and I
know I've got to be compliantwith all of this from 1-1-25,
what are some of the pieces ofevidence that I need to start
collecting?
What are some of the processchanges that I need to be making
in order to account for that.
What's your advice to RTOs whoare looking at this and kind of
(06:43):
going okay?
What's your advice to RTOs whoare looking at this and kind of
going okay, but what does thatpractically mean for me in terms
of my assessment tools andthings like that?
Angela Connell-Richards (06:51):
One thing that I find very
interesting within this.
So if we look at 1.4b,assessors make individual
assessment judgments that arejustified based on the following
rules of evidence it's more ofa focus on the assessor now, not
just the RTO.
Maree Thorne (07:12):
The assessment.
Angela Connell-Richards (07:14):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So I think there's going to bea lot more responsibility on the
assessors when it comes tothese standards now, and I think
that's really going to tie inwith the workforce development
plan and having that in place aswell, and the responsibility of
trainers and assessors when itcomes to workforce development.
(07:36):
This is actually saying now theassessors are responsible for
the assessment judgments, whichshould have always been that way
, but it's actually clarifiednow within the clause.
Maree Thorne (07:53):
And I think, Angela, that even goes to, goes
to, you know, 1.4a thatassessment is conducted in a way
not that the assessment systemitself, it's, it's that it is
actually conducted in a way thatis consistent with these
principles, more on the assessor, on the actual process, on the
(08:13):
practice of it, as opposed tothe, the um, the tools, the, the
um methods, etc.
Yeah, and I think that I thinkthat by putting the words,
rather than just saying, isconsistent way with, you know,
with the principles ofassessment, of fairness, of
flexibility, I think that thestandard is trying to actually
(08:35):
really spell out theinterpretation of fairness, the
interpretation of flexibility,the interpretation of validity,
you know, and reliability,obviously, to go.
Well, you know, it's not achoose your own adventure as to
what you think these principlesmean.
Here is what we mean by theprinciple of fairness, because
(09:02):
otherwise, you know, becausethey put those words into a
legislative standard as opposedto previously having it as the
principles of assessment and therules of evidence in the
legislative standard.
And then you have the what doesyou know?
How are they interpreted in aguide?
Now it's actually saying thisis the interpretation of it, you
(09:24):
know, don't come up with yourown.
Here's the one that we'regiving you.
Angela Connell-Richards (09:30):
So I'm really interested in how ASQA
will interpret this as well whenyou write the user guide.
Lauren Hollows (09:36):
Do you think that from?
I mean it's one of theinteresting components just from
an operational perspective onthis is how I mean there has
been a separation over the yearsof compliance and trainers and
what their duties are and whattheir responsibilities are.
Do you think that in yourinterpretations?
of this one of the focuses forthis year for RTOs does need to
(09:57):
be looking at having processeswhere trainers can be more
integrated into the design andfeedback process and also
potentially really an upskillingof trainers as well.
To go back to, you know,helping trainers to really
understand their units, toreally understand, you know
those, what the principles ofassessment are and how that
(10:18):
looks and what the rules ofassessment, like what the rules
of evidence are and how thatlooks.
I mean, in my opinion, I stillthink I mean, every year I do a
series on the principles ofassessment and the rules of
evidence.
It's because every year itcontinues to be an area where
you know, trainers come to meand they go.
You know, once one side goes, Idon't really, I still really
(10:41):
don't understand this and thenthe other side goes.
I'm really frustrated because I, I know I have a responsibility
on these tools, but I, ourprocesses are such that I
actually don't, I can, can'thave any say in.
So you know, how do you?
You know, what advice do wegive to RTOs and to trainers in
(11:02):
those situations to kind of go,well, this is, this is kind of
going to be a way that you'regoing to have to negotiate that
and you've got the next, youknow, 10 months to kind of
really bring that in and makesome bring that in and make some
changes to your organizational.
You know structure and you knowculture as to how that's all
(11:22):
going
Angela Connell-Richards (11:23):
Yeah, I've been teaching.
Every year I deliver a workshopon assessment validation and
explain the rules of evidenceand principles of Assessment and
it is an area where there is alot of non-compliance has been
historically.
So it's not just trainers andassessors understanding, it's
also the RTOs understanding howthey work.
And the way I explain it is wehave our unit of competency,
(11:48):
then we have our rules ofevidence and principle of
assessment and they all layerover each other and we use the
rules of evidence and principalof assessment to identify
whether we're delivering theunit of competency to meet those
requirements.
So it's really looking at theunit of competency, breaking
down the performance criteriaand saying in our assessment
(12:10):
tool, are we valid, are wereliable, are we meeting the
requirements of the rules ofevidence and principal of
assessment?
And I think once people see itas it's an overlay it's not
separate, it's an overlay of theperformance criteria and the
assessment conditions within theunit then they're able to get a
(12:30):
better understanding.
And that's how I explain it totrainers and assessors.
And I think now, moving forwardwith the new and you can start
doing this now but movingforward with the new clauses,
trainers should be taking thatinto consideration while they're
conducting assessment, trainingand assessment, and how are
they applying that in theirdelivery of their training as
(12:52):
well as conducting theirassessments?
And start thinking about how dothe rules of evidence and
principal assessment overlay andinterlay into that unit of
competency um, all right, yeah,no, I cannot disagree.
Maree Thorne (13:09):
But and I think it sort of takes a step back into
the in our previous um sessionwe were talking about that
testing, um, and that sort ofwhole concept of you know,
testing, you know, and I thinkthat that sort of talks to it as
well you've got to understandwhat the principles are, you've
got to understand what the rulesof evidence are, you've got to
(13:30):
understand what the actualrequirements, the training
package are, in order that youcan go.
Well, is this going to work?
Is this going to make sure thatyou know the evidence I collect
is going to be?
You know what I need it to be,or the you know it's being done
in such a way that you know it'sfair and it's equitable and
(13:52):
it's flexible and all the restof it.
And can I be flexible?
And I think that you know thatwhole testing process is really
is so critical to this process.
Um, and you know the number oftimes, to be honest, I've picked
up an assessment at an RTO andthought I haven't got the first
clue what it is I'm supposed tobe doing.
(14:14):
Um, oh, you know, as a learner.
So you know, put my, I like toput my learners you know shoes
on and go.
Well, I can't work out what I'm.
What am I supposed to be doing?
Or how on earth am I going todo that, or um, and then we put
my assessor's hat on and go.
I can't figure it out either.
Angela Connell-Richards (14:32):
I can't conduct it.
Maree Thorne (14:34):
Yeah, so how on earth can I conduct it?
And then, you know, lauren, thepoint that you were making is
that business about?
You know, we've tested thesetools, because, you know, 1.3 is
about testing the tools, and itspecifically says tools.
And then we come down to 1.4,where we're actually talking
(14:54):
about conducting the assessment.
And you know, again, this isone of the things that comes up
repeatedly.
You know the assessor, who yougo well, hang on a minute, but
this tool says this, but you'vedone something completely
different.
Oh yeah, that didn't work.
You know I couldn't get that towork, or you know they couldn't
understand whatever.
So, so, making that consistencybetween them as well, and
(15:17):
assessors understanding thatyou're going to be conducting
this, can you?
Um, you know, you know youlearn it's, you know, can you
actually do this?
Because, if not, we need tostep back to 1.3 again, um, and
go, well, hey, this doesn't work, it doesn't achieve what I need
it to achieve, but you're notauthorized to just go ahead and
(15:37):
just, you know, um, do youchoose your own adventure and do
it yourself?
Um, so so, yeah, I, I thinkthat you know, again, this is an
area that has always beenproblematic, and I'm not sure
how much it's improving, to behonest, yes, it will be very
interesting to see how we'regoing to be audited against this
(16:02):
and what will be different.
Angela Connell-Richards (16:05):
It was interesting.
Lauren and I, at the last VELGconference, actually spoke to
some of the auditors theauditors and they didn't know
what the hell they were going tointerpret it because they had
actually the people that wespoke to said it's so ambiguous,
all of the standards, theydon't know how they're going to
be auditing against them,particularly so a lot of the
(16:28):
changes in the standards was tobreak it down for big and small
RTOs.
So it's ambiguous because ofthat, because it's going to be
different for a different sizeRTO.
So, yeah, it's going to beinteresting.
I think it's going to be moreof an onus on the trainer and
(16:50):
assessor to be taking intoconsideration what are the rules
of evidence and principalassessment, not just on the RTO.
I think it's the trainersreally thinking about how am I
applying the rules of evidenceand principal assessment whilst
I'm delivering my training?
It's going to be instead ofjust validation, we're
(17:11):
validating and we're integrating.
It should be in theirday-to-day delivery of their
training and assessment.
How am I applying this?
Lauren Hollows (17:20):
I think that's going to take us brilliantly
into our next question.
Guys, you'll be able to seethat video out in just a couple
of days.
We hope that you enjoyed thisone.
Also, make sure that you checkout our first video on Standard
1.3.
Again, I am lucky enough to behere with Angela from Vivacity
and Maree from Compliance Assist, and you can find all of their
(17:41):
details, including being able tofollow them on their socials,
just below.
Guys, we will be back in usjust a few minutes for you, guys
in three or four days.
My name is Lauren HollowsAniwaya Education Services.
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