Discover the future of vocational education as industry mavens Marie from Compliance Assist and Angela from Vivacity unravel the complexities of RTO regulatory changes. Our latest episode promises to guide you through the maze of new assessment standards and the shifting regulatory environment. We tackle the critical balance between the government's hardline on quality assurance and ASQA's supportive ethos, providing exclusive insights into the implications these regulations have on the 'fit and proper person' criteria. This conversation is a must-listen for anyone invested in the present and future state of RTO audits and the VET sector's evolution.
As the Australian government's funding strategies fluctuate, so too does the landscape for Registered Training Organizations. Our guests discuss the readiness of RTOs to trial new educational standards, the move from a nurturing to a more punitive regulatory stance, and how these trends may affect industry motivation and educational quality. Tune in to glean expert viewpoints on the preparation needed for RTOs to navigate re-registration processes and understand the effects of funding shifts on state harmonization and the rise of non-accredited training. This episode is an invaluable resource for stakeholders aiming to remain proactive and well-informed during this transformative period for vocational education.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Lauren Hollows (00:01):
Hey guys, this is Lauren, hello, and we are
here for part three of ourseries on the new assessment as
part of our roundtable series,lucky enough to be here with
Marie from Compliance Assist andAngela from Vivacity, and we've
had some awesome conversationsso far.
They will be linked somewherein the YouTube screen so you can
feel free.
Please do actually go and clickand watch those videos
(00:23):
beforehand, because there's alot of stuff that we're probably
going to be referring back towhen we get into this next topic
.
And the last thing that yousaid, angela, was talking about
the interpretation of theregulators.
It was something that Marie andI were discussing earlier on
today.
Was that?
You know?
Obviously you know we were atthe last VELV session together.
Esco had a booth there.
(00:45):
It was very relational, I think.
You and I had severalconversations with so many
different representatives fromASQA, which was incredible, and
ASQA really has focused onbuilding a much more relational
approach to regulation, toworking with RTOs, to providing
(01:06):
a lot more education materials,and yet what we've also seen in
the last couple of months islike the Minister of Education
coming out consistentlyreferring to dodgy RTOs.
You know there's definitelybeen a crackdown within the cryo
sector, we're seeing up to 80%visa refusals for specific
(01:27):
countries.
So there feels like to me, inthe air there's quite a big
tension of, like an ASQA thatreally wants to continue to work
with RTOs and yet a governmentmessaging that is coming across
as to like Asqua needs to havemore team.
You know, we need to beregulating more aggressively,
(01:52):
and it feels like these twothings are quite, you know,
they're not synergistic in theirapproaches.
So what I hear from governmentversus what I hear from Pasqua,
who obviously is government, but, like my conversations and the
messaging between those two arequite different.
We're now coming into, we'regoing to be coming into 2025
with this brand new set ofstandards.
(02:13):
As you've mentioned, angela,there's a lot of other bits and
pieces coming into thissituation as well.
I'm interested to see what yourguys' thoughts are on more
broadly.
I guess I mean, assessment hasalways been the cornerstone of
what gets audited, performanceassessed, um, I'm interested to
see like what, what are yourthoughts on?
What approach is going tohappen now?
(02:35):
And, you know, is Asper goingto kind of be forced into like
having more teeth?
Are we going to see a return tosome of those more challenging
days?
Or, you know, are they going tobe able to, you know, persevere
and push through, or ispotentially we're going to, you
know, see the end of the Labourgovernment and with the return
(02:57):
of, like a Liberal government,hopefully maybe return to a
little bit more of like that?
You know supporting thatcollegial relationship and you
know pros and cons of that.
I'd be really interested tohear your thoughts on that sort
of whole environment.
Angela Connell-Richards (03:14):
Well, to start with, asqa's change was
due to regulations change inthe VET regulators regulations
where they were told they haveto educate RTOs and they have to
be friendly, they have to beuseful.
So thankfully that did comeabout.
(03:36):
So it's in legislation thatASQA have to provide guidance.
They have to provide a userguide.
Also, what was added to thelegislation was that they have
to provide training as well.
So it will be very interestingto see how that will come about
and how it will be implemented.
(03:56):
So it is their responsibilityto do a user's guide which
they're going to be writing inthe second half of the year and
that's why we're not it's notbeing officially released.
We don't officially have tocomply until the 1st of January
because ASQA need that time tobe able to write the user's
guide.
(04:16):
So that that is veryinteresting with.
Well, how we, how are ASQAgoing to then?
Well, hopefully they don't goback to where they were before,
because it was just they weresweeping out all of the good
RTOs with the bad RTOs, and Ithink you know, in any industry
(04:37):
sector we're always going tohave dodgy providers.
It doesn't matter whether it'sthe training industry or any
other industry sector, but itwill be very interesting with
how this is going to change withthe new fit and proper person
requirements, and that willcertainly clean out a lot of
(04:58):
those dodgy RTOs as well asdodgy consultants as well.
So it will be very interestinghow that will come about.
I haven't, like, when we go toaudit with a client, we're now
filling in fit and proper personforms, and what's going to
happen with consultants?
Are they going to have a ledgerof fit and proper person forms
(05:19):
from each consultant?
Like, do we have to haveeveryone in the organisation?
Like, we've got a team of nine,does everyone in the
organisation need to complete it?
Yeah, it will be veryinteresting to see how we'll be
audited and I'll also be veryinterested to see what the user
guide's going to look like inthe future and will there be
(05:41):
training?
So it's in the legislation thatthey are required to provide
training.
What is that training going tolook like and who will be able
to access it?
Will consultants be able toaccess it?
Will it just be exclusive toRTOs?
Who knows?
Watch this space.
What's your thoughts, marie?
Maree (06:00):
Oh, you must have a much more effective crystal ball than
I do I'm still.
You know, yes, there's a lot ofreform going on.
I think, though, at the end ofthe day, for me it's going to
come down to resourcing and andwhat resources asquot is going
to have in terms of um.
(06:21):
You know which, you know whatthey can actually do, um and,
and you know, obviously,resourcing is connected to fees,
you know, and the fees, youknow, whatever um, and I think
that there might be somehardship, you know, coming for
rtos in terms of if the littlebalance, if the level of audit
picks out, you know that that'sobviously got massive fees
(06:42):
connected with it, but I thinkit's also going to come down to
the capability that asqua has um.
So not just the resources andhow they choose to use them, are
they going to focus them on?
You know this activity, thecapability development activity,
or the, you know, or theauditing capability activities
(07:03):
or whatever, but have they gotthe capability and the right
capability?
You know there's been a lot ofyou know a lot of I don't know
conversation around that in thepast.
As to you know there's been alot of you know a lot of I don't
know conversation around thatin the past as to you know, and
you know the capability ofauditors who've not got a
training background, or you know, and sometimes that's a good
(07:23):
thing and sometimes it's not orthey haven't you know.
So that whole question ofcapability, I think, though,
it's also you, you know, andI'll pay devil's advocate here,
I.
I think there is still verymuch a role for Asquith to play
in the in, in the um, weedingout, if you like.
(07:46):
And look, I don't like the worddodgy, um, because I think
sometimes there is a fine linebetween dodgy versus just not
really capable.
Lauren Hollows (08:00):
Yeah, um, you know, sorry, as angela mentioned
dodgy consultants paulie canpour.
I'm sure all of us have hadpeople referred to us from
another consultant going oh,these guys are in really big
trouble.
I'm like, literally, that'sliterally, that's your job.
Like that's your job now.
Why are you sending him to menow?
Because you've stuffed him up.
You know, we've all had thoseexperiences.
(08:22):
We've all been there, yeah, butI actually think that it's that
an RTO just gets led astray.
Maree (08:28):
Yeah, but I think there has to be.
You know, and yeah, but I thinkthere has to be.
You know, and we're talking inthis session, you know,
significantly started off withassessment and you know, I think
I said earlier this assessmenthas always been an issue.
The principle of assessmenthaven't really changed, you know
.
Okay, some units of competencyhave got a little bit more, you
(08:49):
know, defined or prescribedabout what assessment has to be
or look like.
But the principles of seven, therules of evidence, the actual,
you know, and there's been a lotof advice and guidance and
everything else from theregulator around that, and yet I
don't necessarily see that wehave, as a system, really going
(09:11):
to get on top of that.
So it's kind of one of thosethings.
But what do you do?
You know, at what point do youdraw the line and say, you know
I'm probably going to be themost hated person, but at what
point do you draw the line andgo?
You know what?
You're just not learning.
Um, you know, I'm sorry, butyou know we're going to take
away that license for you at themoment because you know you
(09:32):
keep going through that redlight.
Angela Connell-Richards (09:35):
How many times do we have to change
the legislation, the wording,for you to get it?
Maree (09:39):
For you to get it, and so you know.
But maybe that goes back towhat is.
Is the wording wrong thatpeople can't get it?
Are we being too?
You know, I just wonder at newstandards that's coming, um, and
, and I know myself, if I ask aquestion of Asqua and it's
(10:00):
usually because I really don'tknow the answer.
I don't ask it because I'mtrying to take up somebody's
time.
I, you know it's it.
I really want to know theanswer, and the answer that I
get back is C standard, such andsuch or whatever, as if I
haven't been there.
So sometimes I wonder, if youknow, when I'm having a problem
with a client, I'll go.
(10:21):
Is it me like, okay, how can Ichange my?
I'm obviously saying the samething over and over and over,
but they're not getting it.
How can I change how I'mcommunicating, or you know what
I'm saying, or whatever, to toget the message across?
And so I do think there has tocome a point in Asqua's life
(10:42):
where it's kind of like you knowI'm putting a line through that
and you know how many, how manychances do you get?
Yeah, and, and it's thatconsistency that's not favorable
.
Angela Connell-Richards (10:53):
Um, you know here, but it's also the
consistency between the auditors.
So and this is something thatwe've had issues with in the
past is, uh, one auditor'sinterpretation is different than
other auditor's interpretationof what should be in the
assessment tool and what isrules of evidence and principal
assessment.
Are they being educated?
(11:14):
Are the ASCQA auditors beingeducated on that?
How are they ensuringconsistency?
And that's always been myconcern.
Back in 2019, we did a surveythat went out to our mailing
list and it was what is yourproblem?
I'm redoing the survey nowbecause things have changed, but
in 2019, the biggest problempeople had was that
inconsistency with auditors andASQA's.
(11:38):
You know drawn-out process, andwe seem to be back there again
now.
Like the amount of people I'vespoken to who are still waiting
on applications that weresubmitted for an addition to
scope six months ago or more andthey still haven't heard
anything from ASQA when you weresaying, marie, about resources
(11:59):
and it's staff.
Do they have the staff, thecapability, to be able to?
Like?
They don't have the capacityright now to deal with the
amount of applications orre-registrations that are in
right now.
How are they going to cope withthe change in legislation,
re-registrations that are inright now?
How are they going to cope withthe change in legislation?
Mm-hmm yeah.
Lauren Hollows (12:19):
Yeah, I think it's definitely going to be an
interesting space and I mean, asyou said, going back to 1.3,
the.
So if RTOs are expected to testtheir tools and make
adjustments, right, I guess thequestion is going to be and I
think this is going to be thebig challenge for our escrow is
(12:39):
how do they like this year thisis their year for testing these
new standards, right?
How is that testing going?
Like you know, there's a coupleof different ways that that
testing is going to take place.
A couple of different ways thatthat testing is going to take
place.
I know that I've put forward acouple of RTOs where we've kind
of gone okay, look, we'll do ourre-reg under the new standards
and see how we, you know, seehow we, how we form up.
(13:01):
I think that there's very fewRTOs that would feel comfortable
going into like a process likethat.
I've also got another RTO who'sgoing to be doing their
registration and they put theirhand up to say, look, we're
happy to go through registrationunder the new standards and
allow, you know, allow ourselvesto be the testing dummy.
That's all been done in goodfaith, as I said, based off the
(13:22):
back of PASCUA being really open, leaning into that educative
role that they had, the presencethat they had at VELG, the
willingness to be able to talkto providers, and stuff like
that.
The interesting thing for me isgoing to be you've got a very
(13:44):
different language coming outwhich is reminiscent of, you
know, the 2017, 2018, you knowtimes.
you know times and I'm like, I'mwilling to put my neck out,
based on the relationships ofthe people that I've had
interactions with in escort atthis point in time, the moment I
start to see more of thatlanguage coming into the
regulatory body itself.
It's going like that.
(14:06):
I'll pull.
I'll pull that straight awaybecause I'll be like whoa like
you know it's, it's just gonna.
I think it's going to be veryinteresting Like there's this
huge opportunity with these newstandards for ASQA to work as an
educative body and take thebest parts of these new
standards and really run withthem to improve quality in the
(14:27):
industry.
I think it will be really sadif the federal government turns
and goes no, we actually needyou to be the bad guy with the
teeth you know being, you knowsaying how many were shut down
this month.
I think that's going to kill alot of that motivation and
that's for me, when thesestandards become, because of
(14:47):
their level of prescription,become very problematic.
Um, so I think that, added,like you know, in, asper stays
with the attitude that it's gotnow and the culture that it's
got now, I think these will be agreat set of standards.
I am very wary, having beenthrough many rounds of like
happy regulator mad regulator um, you know that're going to go
(15:11):
into a MAD regulator perspective.
I'm going to be like, oh, thesestandards can be really
problematic.
We go to MAD regulator now.
Angela Connell-Richards (15:21):
And then if you stack on top of that
the fact that there's lack ofgovernment funding in states at
the moment, it's making it verytough on RTOs.
Like there are going to be somany changes that are afoot and
RTOs are going to need to adjustto these.
Asqa needs to adjust as well.
(15:42):
And then my concern has beenwell, are there going to be some
RTOs that are just going to go?
This is all too hard, we don'thave any funding.
I just don't want to do thisanymore.
Lauren Hollows (15:57):
And, interestingly, the federal
government has released theirown funding and I think that I
mean that hasn't happened before, at least not in the way that
they've released this funding.
And so I look at that and I gowell, is that because they're
going to turn around and go.
Well, if you guys want toharmonize funding, which we've
been asking for for 20 years,we're just going to offer the
funding ourselves and that'sinnately going to harmonize it.
(16:19):
Because guess what, wa, if youdon't want to play the game,
you're just going to get lessmoney.
And so now, instead of largerRTOs having to deal with, let's
say, seven funding models forseven different states, we're
going to have to deal with eightdifferent funding models for
the seven states and territories.
And now for federal.
And then, of course, you've gotlike all of the you know
(16:41):
federal incentives and you'reasking you know like all of that
sort of stuff as well, but therelease of that new federal
funding, I think but where isthat federal funding going?
Angela Connell-Richards (16:51):
Is it going to TAFE?
Lauren Hollows (16:54):
Well, you know.
Again, that is a question.
But it's also interesting that,like in that federal funding
and in the Smart and Skilled,the WA and the Queensland
funding that's recently beenreleased, you know, they are
skilling non-accredited training.
They are funding non-accreditedtraining.
They are fundingmicro-financiing, they are
funding skill sets.
(17:14):
There is definitely atransition happening back to
sort of the shorter, sharpertraining in addition to you know
and less away from.
You know full qualifications.
You know three years of this,that and the other full
qualifications.
You know three years of this,that and the other.
(17:35):
So I think the next two yearsare actually going to see quite
a few different shifts.
Angela Connell-Richards (17:40):
It's massive, like the next couple of
years.
You know that rollercoasterride that you were talking about
.
We're going to be doing acouple of loops, yeah, and let's
see what happens when we comeout the other end.
Yeah, and again for me, for ourTOS guys, you need to be
watching programs, yeah, andlet's see what happens when we
come out the other end.
Yeah, and I mean again.
Lauren Hollows (17:55):
You need to be watching programs like this.
You need to be working withconsultants, you need to be
preparing.
Please don't make an assumptionthat you know, oh, it's mostly
same, the same.
You know, look, unless you arelike a top tier r RTO who is
proactive AF about everything,please don't make an assumption
(18:15):
that these are the samestandards and you're going to be
good.
You actually do need to beplanning you need to be thinking
about training design.
You need to be thinking aboutlearner requirements.
You know you need to berethinking that in context of
your assessments, in context ofupskilling your staff.
You know, I think that yeah,workforce development plan.
Angela Connell-Richards (18:39):
There's going to be a lot of
requirements around that.
We've already started rewritingour policies and procedures.
We've already started reviewingall of our documents.
Like, we're not waiting untilthe standards are released,
we're doing it now.
The other thing I I deliver amonthly compliance webinar.
Um, what I'm doing now is I'msaying this is the current
standards and this is what's tocome, this is what's going to be
(19:00):
changing, and then the secondhalf of the year, I'm going to
start delivering to the newstandards.
So, yes, so it like you.
Yes, as you said, you should besubscribing to these sort of
podcasts and vodcasts and alsolooking at training and how,
like, not just for the standards, we've also got AI and we've
(19:21):
got chat, gpt, like there's somany things that are changing.
If you guys don't keep up,you're going to fall off the
wagon spending the money.
Lauren Hollows (19:31):
Like spending money and time in advance is
just going to save you so muchmore down the track.
Like spend ten dollars up frontis going to save you having to
spend a hundred dollars fixingit in the in the rear end.
Um, I know that's something thatyou know, every consultant that
I work with goes mate.
If you just you know, if you'dspent 10 grand on getting that
(19:54):
part right beforehand, you now,I now, wouldn't have to be
spending.
You know, we now wouldn't haveto be spending a hundred dollars
, a hundred thousand, not justfixing this but then also going
back and working and thereputational damage that that's
now going to cause.
You know, and and is that youknow, and the fact that you've
got a black mark with theregulator and you know
(20:15):
everything like that.
So use this time, guys, testthe new standards, like you guys
test new standards, test yournew policies, you know.
Work with people like angela,like marie, get feedback from
them.
I know that both of you guys doput out a lot of resources, you
know in the form of, you knowtraining sessions and workshops,
(20:36):
and you know just so manydifferent ways that you guys can
get access to this sort of aknowledge without it costing you
an arm and a leg, and then bestrategic about those points
where you really do need thathelp.
You know, um, yeah, thank youso much, guys.
Um, just really quick hand overto both of you.
(20:56):
Please let us know where we canfind you um and what you've got
coming up.
You know in the next couple ofmonths that we should be looking
out for.
Angela Connell-Richards (21:04):
Yeah, okay, so you can find me on
LinkedIn, angela ConnellRichards, and I'd love for you
to follow me on there andconnect with me, because I have
a lot of content that I share onthere.
And then the other one we'vegot the RTO community.
It's a Facebook group that youcan join and it's I facilitate
(21:29):
it, but it's actually got itsown mind.
It's got this huge communitynow that is in there.
We've got a two and a halfthousand people in there and
there's all these offshoot chats, uh, that people have got in
there as well.
A lot of you'll learn a lot andshare.
There's a lot of sharing that'shappening in there,
particularly, um, in the chats.
And then we've got the rto jobboard on facebook as well.
(21:52):
So that's another group thatone's got over 5 000 now um, and
it's trainers and assessors aswell as rto owners that are on
there, uh, and we're sharingthose groups.
Uh, what are the changes thatare happening?
What's going to affect thetrainers and assessors, what's
going to affect the RTO?
So I definitely recommend thatyou get onto those.
(22:13):
And then we've got a series ofworkshops that we're delivering
this year, particularly on AIand the new legislation, so you
can go to vivacitycomau andlearn more about our events.
Lauren Hollows (22:27):
Excellent Over to you, Marie.
Maree (22:30):
Oh, my goodness, Just listening to Angela's list I'm
obviously not doing anything.
That is very, verycomprehensive.
Wow, complianceassistcomau alsoon LinkedIn.
I'm sort of at the momenttrying to transition myself away
a little bit from compliancefocused and sort of really try
(22:56):
and encourage clients to moveinto the more you know the
pillars of governance.
You know the governance, thesustainability and the.
You know and the and complianceas a sort of the three pillars.
So trying to take a holisticview of an organization, because
, you know, we sort of talkedabout some stuff in this session
(23:19):
earlier sessions around youknow some of the costs that may
be involved to an RTO and so oneof the things, one of the
challenges, is trying to look atthat Artia and go.
You know, balancing thatbusiness acumen with the
academic rigour, with theethical decision-making and, you
know, looking at theorganisation.
(23:39):
You know I'm sort of workingwith a partner.
We're calling it sort of anorganisational needs analysis,
if you like.
You know doing a lot of thatwork around looking at the
organisation, the Artia, as alike.
You know doing a lot of thatwork around looking at the
organisation, the RTO, as awhole, you know, rather than as
disparate and separate parts.
Angela Connell-Richards (23:55):
So that would work well with the
workforce development planrequirements as well.
We do the eight criticaldrivers to RTO success, which is
a masterclass.
We deliver once a month andit's all about getting that
balance between clients andbusiness success.
Maree (24:10):
Exactly, yeah, exactly, and it's so important.
I think you know we talk verymuch about compliance and a lot
of the PD it really is focusedon compliance.
But you know, as anorganisation, you know you can
put as much money as you like toit, but you'll be out of
business in no time.
Lauren Hollows (24:26):
So it's finding yeah, it's got to be sustainable
and financially viable at theend of the day right, yeah, yeah
, Well, guys, thank you verymuch.
This has been an awesome series.
I really appreciate your time.
I know you're both very, verybusy women.
Guys, you can find all ofAngela and Marie's contact
(24:46):
details, all of their socialsand everything like that, in the
links below.
If you have enjoyed this,please do like, subscribe,
comment all of those good things.
Otherwise, thank you so much toAngela and Marie.
My name is Lauren Hollows forAnaliah Education Services.
Hey guys, this is Lauren, hello, and we are
here for part three of ourseries on the new assessment as
part of our roundtable series,lucky enough to be here with
Marie from Compliance Assist andAngela from Vivacity, and we've
had some awesome conversationsso far.
They will be linked somewherein the YouTube screen so you can
feel free.
Please do actually go and clickand watch those videos
(00:23):
beforehand, because there's alot of stuff that we're probably
going to be referring back towhen we get into this next topic
.
And the last thing that yousaid, angela, was talking about
the interpretation of theregulators.
It was something that Marie andI were discussing earlier on
today.
Was that?
You know?
Obviously you know we were atthe last VELV session together.
Esco had a booth there.
(00:45):
It was very relational, I think.
You and I had severalconversations with so many
different representatives fromASQA, which was incredible, and
ASQA really has focused onbuilding a much more relational
approach to regulation, toworking with RTOs, to providing
(01:06):
a lot more education materials,and yet what we've also seen in
the last couple of months islike the Minister of Education
coming out consistentlyreferring to dodgy RTOs.
You know there's definitelybeen a crackdown within the cryo
sector, we're seeing up to 80%visa refusals for specific
(01:27):
countries.
So there feels like to me, inthe air there's quite a big
tension of, like an ASQA thatreally wants to continue to work
with RTOs and yet a governmentmessaging that is coming across
as to like Asqua needs to havemore team.
You know, we need to beregulating more aggressively,
(01:52):
and it feels like these twothings are quite, you know,
they're not synergistic in theirapproaches.
So what I hear from governmentversus what I hear from Pasqua,
who obviously is government, but, like my conversations and the
messaging between those two arequite different.
We're now coming into, we'regoing to be coming into 2025
with this brand new set ofstandards.
(02:13):
As you've mentioned, angela,there's a lot of other bits and
pieces coming into thissituation as well.
I'm interested to see what yourguys' thoughts are on more
broadly.
I guess I mean, assessment hasalways been the cornerstone of
what gets audited, performanceassessed, um, I'm interested to
see like what, what are yourthoughts on?
What approach is going tohappen now?
(02:35):
And, you know, is Asper goingto kind of be forced into like
having more teeth?
Are we going to see a return tosome of those more challenging
days?
Or, you know, are they going tobe able to, you know, persevere
and push through, or ispotentially we're going to, you
know, see the end of the Labourgovernment and with the return
(02:57):
of, like a Liberal government,hopefully maybe return to a
little bit more of like that?
You know supporting thatcollegial relationship and you
know pros and cons of that.
I'd be really interested tohear your thoughts on that sort
of whole environment.
Angela Connell-Richards (03:14):
Well, to start with, asqa's change was
due to regulations change inthe VET regulators regulations
where they were told they haveto educate RTOs and they have to
be friendly, they have to beuseful.
So thankfully that did comeabout.
(03:36):
So it's in legislation thatASQA have to provide guidance.
They have to provide a userguide.
Also, what was added to thelegislation was that they have
to provide training as well.
So it will be very interestingto see how that will come about
and how it will be implemented.
(03:56):
So it is their responsibilityto do a user's guide which
they're going to be writing inthe second half of the year and
that's why we're not it's notbeing officially released.
We don't officially have tocomply until the 1st of January
because ASQA need that time tobe able to write the user's
guide.
(04:16):
So that that is veryinteresting with.
Well, how we, how are ASQAgoing to then?
Well, hopefully they don't goback to where they were before,
because it was just they weresweeping out all of the good
RTOs with the bad RTOs, and Ithink you know, in any industry
(04:37):
sector we're always going tohave dodgy providers.
It doesn't matter whether it'sthe training industry or any
other industry sector, but itwill be very interesting with
how this is going to change withthe new fit and proper person
requirements, and that willcertainly clean out a lot of
(04:58):
those dodgy RTOs as well asdodgy consultants as well.
So it will be very interestinghow that will come about.
I haven't, like, when we go toaudit with a client, we're now
filling in fit and proper personforms, and what's going to
happen with consultants?
Are they going to have a ledgerof fit and proper person forms
(05:19):
from each consultant?
Like, do we have to haveeveryone in the organisation?
Like, we've got a team of nine,does everyone in the
organisation need to complete it?
Yeah, it will be veryinteresting to see how we'll be
audited and I'll also be veryinterested to see what the user
guide's going to look like inthe future and will there be
(05:41):
training?
So it's in the legislation thatthey are required to provide
training.
What is that training going tolook like and who will be able
to access it?
Will consultants be able toaccess it?
Will it just be exclusive toRTOs?
Who knows?
Watch this space.
What's your thoughts, marie?
Maree (06:00):
Oh, you must have a much more effective crystal ball than
I do I'm still.
You know, yes, there's a lot ofreform going on.
I think, though, at the end ofthe day, for me it's going to
come down to resourcing and andwhat resources asquot is going
to have in terms of um.
(06:21):
You know which, you know whatthey can actually do, um and,
and you know, obviously,resourcing is connected to fees,
you know, and the fees, youknow, whatever um, and I think
that there might be somehardship, you know, coming for
rtos in terms of if the littlebalance, if the level of audit
picks out, you know that that'sobviously got massive fees
(06:42):
connected with it, but I thinkit's also going to come down to
the capability that asqua has um.
So not just the resources andhow they choose to use them, are
they going to focus them on?
You know this activity, thecapability development activity,
or the, you know, or theauditing capability activities
(07:03):
or whatever, but have they gotthe capability and the right
capability?
You know there's been a lot ofyou know a lot of I don't know
conversation around that in thepast.
As to you know there's been alot of you know a lot of I don't
know conversation around thatin the past as to you know, and
you know the capability ofauditors who've not got a
training background, or you know, and sometimes that's a good
(07:23):
thing and sometimes it's not orthey haven't you know.
So that whole question ofcapability, I think, though,
it's also you, you know, andI'll pay devil's advocate here,
I.
I think there is still verymuch a role for Asquith to play
in the in, in the um, weedingout, if you like.
(07:46):
And look, I don't like the worddodgy, um, because I think
sometimes there is a fine linebetween dodgy versus just not
really capable.
Lauren Hollows (08:00):
Yeah, um, you know, sorry, as angela mentioned
dodgy consultants paulie canpour.
I'm sure all of us have hadpeople referred to us from
another consultant going oh,these guys are in really big
trouble.
I'm like, literally, that'sliterally, that's your job.
Like that's your job now.
Why are you sending him to menow?
Because you've stuffed him up.
You know, we've all had thoseexperiences.
(08:22):
We've all been there, yeah, butI actually think that it's that
an RTO just gets led astray.
Maree (08:28):
Yeah, but I think there has to be.
You know, and yeah, but I thinkthere has to be.
You know, and we're talking inthis session, you know,
significantly started off withassessment and you know, I think
I said earlier this assessmenthas always been an issue.
The principle of assessmenthaven't really changed, you know
.
Okay, some units of competencyhave got a little bit more, you
(08:49):
know, defined or prescribedabout what assessment has to be
or look like.
But the principles of seven, therules of evidence, the actual,
you know, and there's been a lotof advice and guidance and
everything else from theregulator around that, and yet I
don't necessarily see that wehave, as a system, really going
(09:11):
to get on top of that.
So it's kind of one of thosethings.
But what do you do?
You know, at what point do youdraw the line and say, you know
I'm probably going to be themost hated person, but at what
point do you draw the line andgo?
You know what?
You're just not learning.
Um, you know, I'm sorry, butyou know we're going to take
away that license for you at themoment because you know you
(09:32):
keep going through that redlight.
Angela Connell-Richards (09:35):
How many times do we have to change
the legislation, the wording,for you to get it?
Maree (09:39):
For you to get it, and so you know.
But maybe that goes back towhat is.
Is the wording wrong thatpeople can't get it?
Are we being too?
You know, I just wonder at newstandards that's coming, um, and
, and I know myself, if I ask aquestion of Asqua and it's
(10:00):
usually because I really don'tknow the answer.
I don't ask it because I'mtrying to take up somebody's
time.
I, you know it's it.
I really want to know theanswer, and the answer that I
get back is C standard, such andsuch or whatever, as if I
haven't been there.
So sometimes I wonder, if youknow, when I'm having a problem
with a client, I'll go.
(10:21):
Is it me like, okay, how can Ichange my?
I'm obviously saying the samething over and over and over,
but they're not getting it.
How can I change how I'mcommunicating, or you know what
I'm saying, or whatever, to toget the message across?
And so I do think there has tocome a point in Asqua's life
(10:42):
where it's kind of like you knowI'm putting a line through that
and you know how many, how manychances do you get?
Yeah, and, and it's thatconsistency that's not favorable
.
Angela Connell-Richards (10:53):
Um, you know here, but it's also the
consistency between the auditors.
So and this is something thatwe've had issues with in the
past is, uh, one auditor'sinterpretation is different than
other auditor's interpretationof what should be in the
assessment tool and what isrules of evidence and principal
assessment.
Are they being educated?
(11:14):
Are the ASCQA auditors beingeducated on that?
How are they ensuringconsistency?
And that's always been myconcern.
Back in 2019, we did a surveythat went out to our mailing
list and it was what is yourproblem?
I'm redoing the survey nowbecause things have changed, but
in 2019, the biggest problempeople had was that
inconsistency with auditors andASQA's.
(11:38):
You know drawn-out process, andwe seem to be back there again
now.
Like the amount of people I'vespoken to who are still waiting
on applications that weresubmitted for an addition to
scope six months ago or more andthey still haven't heard
anything from ASQA when you weresaying, marie, about resources
(11:59):
and it's staff.
Do they have the staff, thecapability, to be able to?
Like?
They don't have the capacityright now to deal with the
amount of applications orre-registrations that are in
right now.
How are they going to cope withthe change in legislation,
re-registrations that are inright now?
How are they going to cope withthe change in legislation?
Mm-hmm yeah.
Lauren Hollows (12:19):
Yeah, I think it's definitely going to be an
interesting space and I mean, asyou said, going back to 1.3,
the.
So if RTOs are expected to testtheir tools and make
adjustments, right, I guess thequestion is going to be and I
think this is going to be thebig challenge for our escrow is
(12:39):
how do they like this year thisis their year for testing these
new standards, right?
How is that testing going?
Like you know, there's a coupleof different ways that that
testing is going to take place.
A couple of different ways thatthat testing is going to take
place.
I know that I've put forward acouple of RTOs where we've kind
of gone okay, look, we'll do ourre-reg under the new standards
and see how we, you know, seehow we, how we form up.
(13:01):
I think that there's very fewRTOs that would feel comfortable
going into like a process likethat.
I've also got another RTO who'sgoing to be doing their
registration and they put theirhand up to say, look, we're
happy to go through registrationunder the new standards and
allow, you know, allow ourselvesto be the testing dummy.
That's all been done in goodfaith, as I said, based off the
(13:22):
back of PASCUA being really open, leaning into that educative
role that they had, the presencethat they had at VELG, the
willingness to be able to talkto providers, and stuff like
that.
The interesting thing for me isgoing to be you've got a very
(13:44):
different language coming outwhich is reminiscent of, you
know, the 2017, 2018, you knowtimes.
you know times and I'm like, I'mwilling to put my neck out,
based on the relationships ofthe people that I've had
interactions with in escort atthis point in time, the moment I
start to see more of thatlanguage coming into the
regulatory body itself.
It's going like that.
(14:06):
I'll pull.
I'll pull that straight awaybecause I'll be like whoa like
you know it's, it's just gonna.
I think it's going to be veryinteresting Like there's this
huge opportunity with these newstandards for ASQA to work as an
educative body and take thebest parts of these new
standards and really run withthem to improve quality in the
(14:27):
industry.
I think it will be really sadif the federal government turns
and goes no, we actually needyou to be the bad guy with the
teeth you know being, you knowsaying how many were shut down
this month.
I think that's going to kill alot of that motivation and
that's for me, when thesestandards become, because of
(14:47):
their level of prescription,become very problematic.
Um, so I think that, added,like you know, in, asper stays
with the attitude that it's gotnow and the culture that it's
got now, I think these will be agreat set of standards.
I am very wary, having beenthrough many rounds of like
happy regulator mad regulator um, you know that're going to go
(15:11):
into a MAD regulator perspective.
I'm going to be like, oh, thesestandards can be really
problematic.
We go to MAD regulator now.
Angela Connell-Richards (15:21):
And then if you stack on top of that
the fact that there's lack ofgovernment funding in states at
the moment, it's making it verytough on RTOs.
Like there are going to be somany changes that are afoot and
RTOs are going to need to adjustto these.
Asqa needs to adjust as well.
(15:42):
And then my concern has beenwell, are there going to be some
RTOs that are just going to go?
This is all too hard, we don'thave any funding.
I just don't want to do thisanymore.
Lauren Hollows (15:57):
And, interestingly, the federal
government has released theirown funding and I think that I
mean that hasn't happened before, at least not in the way that
they've released this funding.
And so I look at that and I gowell, is that because they're
going to turn around and go.
Well, if you guys want toharmonize funding, which we've
been asking for for 20 years,we're just going to offer the
funding ourselves and that'sinnately going to harmonize it.
(16:19):
Because guess what, wa, if youdon't want to play the game,
you're just going to get lessmoney.
And so now, instead of largerRTOs having to deal with, let's
say, seven funding models forseven different states, we're
going to have to deal with eightdifferent funding models for
the seven states and territories.
And now for federal.
And then, of course, you've gotlike all of the you know
(16:41):
federal incentives and you'reasking you know like all of that
sort of stuff as well, but therelease of that new federal
funding, I think but where isthat federal funding going?
Angela Connell-Richards (16:51):
Is it going to TAFE?
Lauren Hollows (16:54):
Well, you know.
Again, that is a question.
But it's also interesting that,like in that federal funding
and in the Smart and Skilled,the WA and the Queensland
funding that's recently beenreleased, you know, they are
skilling non-accredited training.
They are funding non-accreditedtraining.
They are fundingmicro-financiing, they are
funding skill sets.
(17:14):
There is definitely atransition happening back to
sort of the shorter, sharpertraining in addition to you know
and less away from.
You know full qualifications.
You know three years of this,that and the other full
qualifications.
You know three years of this,that and the other.
(17:35):
So I think the next two yearsare actually going to see quite
a few different shifts.
Angela Connell-Richards (17:40):
It's massive, like the next couple of
years.
You know that rollercoasterride that you were talking about
.
We're going to be doing acouple of loops, yeah, and let's
see what happens when we comeout the other end.
Yeah, and again for me, for ourTOS guys, you need to be
watching programs, yeah, andlet's see what happens when we
come out the other end.
Yeah, and I mean again.
Lauren Hollows (17:55):
You need to be watching programs like this.
You need to be working withconsultants, you need to be
preparing.
Please don't make an assumptionthat you know, oh, it's mostly
same, the same.
You know, look, unless you arelike a top tier r RTO who is
proactive AF about everything,please don't make an assumption
(18:15):
that these are the samestandards and you're going to be
good.
You actually do need to beplanning you need to be thinking
about training design.
You need to be thinking aboutlearner requirements.
You know you need to berethinking that in context of
your assessments, in context ofupskilling your staff.
You know, I think that yeah,workforce development plan.
Angela Connell-Richards (18:39):
There's going to be a lot of
requirements around that.
We've already started rewritingour policies and procedures.
We've already started reviewingall of our documents.
Like, we're not waiting untilthe standards are released,
we're doing it now.
The other thing I I deliver amonthly compliance webinar.
Um, what I'm doing now is I'msaying this is the current
standards and this is what's tocome, this is what's going to be
(19:00):
changing, and then the secondhalf of the year, I'm going to
start delivering to the newstandards.
So, yes, so it like you.
Yes, as you said, you should besubscribing to these sort of
podcasts and vodcasts and alsolooking at training and how,
like, not just for the standards, we've also got AI and we've
(19:21):
got chat, gpt, like there's somany things that are changing.
If you guys don't keep up,you're going to fall off the
wagon spending the money.
Lauren Hollows (19:31):
Like spending money and time in advance is
just going to save you so muchmore down the track.
Like spend ten dollars up frontis going to save you having to
spend a hundred dollars fixingit in the in the rear end.
Um, I know that's something thatyou know, every consultant that
I work with goes mate.
If you just you know, if you'dspent 10 grand on getting that
(19:54):
part right beforehand, you now,I now, wouldn't have to be
spending.
You know, we now wouldn't haveto be spending a hundred dollars
, a hundred thousand, not justfixing this but then also going
back and working and thereputational damage that that's
now going to cause.
You know, and and is that youknow, and the fact that you've
got a black mark with theregulator and you know
(20:15):
everything like that.
So use this time, guys, testthe new standards, like you guys
test new standards, test yournew policies, you know.
Work with people like angela,like marie, get feedback from
them.
I know that both of you guys doput out a lot of resources, you
know in the form of, you knowtraining sessions and workshops,
(20:36):
and you know just so manydifferent ways that you guys can
get access to this sort of aknowledge without it costing you
an arm and a leg, and then bestrategic about those points
where you really do need thathelp.
You know, um, yeah, thank youso much, guys.
Um, just really quick hand overto both of you.
(20:56):
Please let us know where we canfind you um and what you've got
coming up.
You know in the next couple ofmonths that we should be looking
out for.
Angela Connell-Richards (21:04):
Yeah, okay, so you can find me on
LinkedIn, angela ConnellRichards, and I'd love for you
to follow me on there andconnect with me, because I have
a lot of content that I share onthere.
And then the other one we'vegot the RTO community.
It's a Facebook group that youcan join and it's I facilitate
(21:29):
it, but it's actually got itsown mind.
It's got this huge communitynow that is in there.
We've got a two and a halfthousand people in there and
there's all these offshoot chats, uh, that people have got in
there as well.
A lot of you'll learn a lot andshare.
There's a lot of sharing that'shappening in there,
particularly, um, in the chats.
And then we've got the rto jobboard on facebook as well.
(21:52):
So that's another group thatone's got over 5 000 now um, and
it's trainers and assessors aswell as rto owners that are on
there, uh, and we're sharingthose groups.
Uh, what are the changes thatare happening?
What's going to affect thetrainers and assessors, what's
going to affect the RTO?
So I definitely recommend thatyou get onto those.
(22:13):
And then we've got a series ofworkshops that we're delivering
this year, particularly on AIand the new legislation, so you
can go to vivacitycomau andlearn more about our events.
Lauren Hollows (22:27):
Excellent Over to you, Marie.
Maree (22:30):
Oh, my goodness, Just listening to Angela's list I'm
obviously not doing anything.
That is very, verycomprehensive.
Wow, complianceassistcomau alsoon LinkedIn.
I'm sort of at the momenttrying to transition myself away
a little bit from compliancefocused and sort of really try
(22:56):
and encourage clients to moveinto the more you know the
pillars of governance.
You know the governance, thesustainability and the.
You know and the and complianceas a sort of the three pillars.
So trying to take a holisticview of an organization, because
, you know, we sort of talkedabout some stuff in this session
(23:19):
earlier sessions around youknow some of the costs that may
be involved to an RTO and so oneof the things, one of the
challenges, is trying to look atthat Artia and go.
You know, balancing thatbusiness acumen with the
academic rigour, with theethical decision-making and, you
know, looking at theorganisation.
(23:39):
You know I'm sort of workingwith a partner.
We're calling it sort of anorganisational needs analysis,
if you like.
You know doing a lot of thatwork around looking at the
organisation, the Artia, as alike.
You know doing a lot of thatwork around looking at the
organisation, the RTO, as awhole, you know, rather than as
disparate and separate parts.
Angela Connell-Richards (23:55):
So that would work well with the
workforce development planrequirements as well.
We do the eight criticaldrivers to RTO success, which is
a masterclass.
We deliver once a month andit's all about getting that
balance between clients andbusiness success.
Maree (24:10):
Exactly, yeah, exactly, and it's so important.
I think you know we talk verymuch about compliance and a lot
of the PD it really is focusedon compliance.
But you know, as anorganisation, you know you can
put as much money as you like toit, but you'll be out of
business in no time.
Lauren Hollows (24:26):
So it's finding yeah, it's got to be sustainable
and financially viable at theend of the day right, yeah, yeah
, Well, guys, thank you verymuch.
This has been an awesome series.
I really appreciate your time.
I know you're both very, verybusy women.
Guys, you can find all ofAngela and Marie's contact
(24:46):
details, all of their socialsand everything like that, in the
links below.
If you have enjoyed this,please do like, subscribe,
comment all of those good things.
Otherwise, thank you so much toAngela and Marie.
My name is Lauren Hollows forAnaliah Education Services.
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