March 11, 2025 • 30 mins
In this episode of the RTO Superhero Podcast, Angela Connell-Richards and Lauren Hollows explore supporting students with disabilities under the revised Standards for RTOs. With a greater emphasis on reasonable adjustments, compliance, and trainer responsibilities, they break down what RTOs need to do to ensure inclusive, accessible training.
🎙️ Key discussion points include:
✅ The new compliance focus – What’s changed in the revised standards?
✅ Disability disclosure – Balancing student choice with safety and training suitability.
✅ Health conditions & workplace safety – Why RTOs need better pre-enrolment processes.
✅ Making reasonable adjustments – Practical strategies that still meet competency requirements.
✅ Trainer responsibilities – How to identify and support students with disabilities.
✅ Documenting adjustments & support plans – Why failing to record actions can put RTOs at risk.
✅ The role of technology & AI – How digital devices and AI can enhance accessibility.
Angela and Lauren share real-world examples, compliance risks, and practical solutions to help RTOs navigate student support, disability adjustments, and regulatory expectations.
🚀 Don’t miss this essential episode on creating an inclusive and compliant training environment!
🔔 Subscribe to the RTO Superhero Podcast for expert insights on VET reform, compliance, and industry best practices.
Join host Angela Connell-Richards as she opens each episode with a burst of insight and inspiration. Discover why compliance is your launchpad to success, not a limitation.
Connect with fellow RTO professionals in our free Facebook groups: the RTO Community and RTO Job Board. Visit rtosuperhero.au/groups to join today.
Wrap up with gratitude and guidance. Subscribe, leave a review, and join our community as we continue supporting your compliance journey in vocational education.
Thank you for tuning in to the RTO Superhero Podcast!
We’re excited to have you join us as we focus on the Revised Standards for RTOs in 2025. Together, we’ll explore key changes, compliance strategies, and actionable insights to help your RTO thrive under the new standards.
Stay connected with the RTO Community:
📌 Don’t forget to:
✔ Subscribe to the RTO Superhero Podcast so you never miss an episode!
✔ Share this episode with your RTO network—compliance is a team effort!
🎙 Listen now and get ahead of the compliance changes before it’s too late!
📢 Want even more compliance insights? Subscribe to our EduStream YouTube Channel for our FAQ series on the New Standards for RTOs 2025! 🎥
🔗 Subscribe now: EduStream by Vivacity Coaching
✉️ Email us at hello@vivacity.com.au
📞 Call us on 1300 729 455
🖥️ Visit us at vivacity.com.au
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Angela Connell-Richards (00:04):
Welcome to the RTO Superhero Podcast
with my special guest, lauren,who we're going to be talking
today about supporting studentswith disabilities and under the
revised standards.
What do RTOs now need to do?
Welcome, lauren, to the RTOSuperhero Podcast.
Lauren Hollows (00:23):
Hello Angela.
Thank you for having me back.
I'm surprised you keep lettingme in here.
Angela Connell-Richards (00:30):
I love our conversations.
We could talk all day about allthese sort of things we
literally could talk all day,yeah, yeah.
So in our last podcast we talkedabout support services and we
had a very robust conversationabout what we think the changes
are going to be.
Now we're going to drill intodisabilities and what is it that
(00:52):
RTOs need to be mindful of and,in particular, looking at
legislation around disabilitysupport and what we now need to
apply when it comes to supportservices with disabilities.
So let's start with you whatare your thoughts around the
compliance requirements and whatRTOs may need to put into place
(01:15):
now when it comes todisabilities?
Lauren Hollows (01:18):
Yeah.
So I mean, look, this isprobably one of the few RTO
standards where I do have like abit of an issue with one of the
few RTO standards where I dohave like a bit of an issue with
one of the points.
So I think reasonable, like thereasonable adjustment stuff,
there was like a reference to itin the old standards, so there
was, I think I think it's justgood that they've kind of
fleshed it out now in a littlebit more detail.
(01:39):
And I think mainly this isgoing to relate to like 2.1, 2.2
and how 2.1, 2.2 mesh into 2.4,which is like really making
sure that we understand ifthere's a disability need and
how you're going to input thatin the workplace.
I guess and I understand thestandard A, but A says vet
(02:00):
standards.
Vet students are supported todisclose their disability if
they wish, and that's, I guessthat's.
My only issue is that, havingworked in a lot of colleges
where we've got high needstudents, quite often students
are reluctant to disclose adisability because they're
(02:21):
worried that like they won't belet in, they'll be told you know
no sorry, you know no luck, andI especially see this in like
the vet in school space.
So but say if they wish.
I think it leaves.
My concern is it leaves a gapfor RTOs whereby the student
(02:43):
doesn't disclose it and then itcomes to a head later on down
the track.
You know, like, for example, intelecommunications, we have to
know if the student iscolorblind.
If you're colorblind and you'retrying to work in
telecommunications, you canelectrocute yourself right.
So that's something where it'sit's super important that we
understand.
(03:03):
If you have a disability, um,it's also important for that.
We understand if you have adisability.
It's also important for me tounderstand if you've got, you
know, add dyslexia, so that Ican put support mechanisms in
place.
But for some of the otherdisabilities that you might have
, it could have a very realsafety impact on you know, on
(03:24):
things later on down the track.
Okay, like you know, if you'vegot, you know I'm blanking on
the disorder at the moment, but,like you know, confrontational
disorders and things like thatwhereby you're potentially if I
don't- manage your patients.
Yeah, I mean, look,low-functioning Asperger's can
definitely be.
(03:44):
You know you can present someof that as well.
But there are certain issueswhere, if I don't know what your
disability is I mean eventhings like you know anemia or
you know blood sugar issues andstuff like that If I don't know
about that and we've got,we're're running our practical
workshop, we're doingconstruction, it's a little bit
(04:06):
hot, we're running a little bitlate, we missed our break and I
don't know what your conditionis, and you that you're now
passed out in my you know you'rethen passed out with power
tools in your hands, right, Ifeel like that, if they wish, is
a bit of a risk.
So I think it's gonna, it's theimpetus is gonna be on rtos to
(04:28):
push in that area a little bitand to have information specific
to their courses as to like youneed to, just like we really do
want to know and please dodisclose if you've got any
student needs.
These are some of the studentneeds we need to understand from
a safety perspective, you know,and other needs we would just
(04:48):
like you know.
The more you share with us, thebetter we can adapt to make
sure the training is going to besuitable for you, right?
Um, so I think a is problematicwith that particular language
and I, because it's quitewishy-washy, I'm actually hoping
that it's going to be taken outwhen they go through that legal
process.
You know, as you wish, it's not.
From a legal perspective, it'sproblematic.
(05:09):
So I'm hoping that that littlestatement is going to be pulled
out.
If it does, then that's fine.
But it puts like the thing is,is that with RTOs, it is going
to put a very clear emphasis onthe fact that you guys do need
to figure out the students thatyou're accepting.
Once you take on that student,you are taking on the needs of
that student and you will berequired to account for them If
(05:30):
you are silly enough not to findout about them before the
course and now, all of a sudden,you're going to have to adapt
your facility, or you're goingto have to adapt your training,
or you're going to have to findalternate workplaces that are
going to be able to be suitablefor these students.
That's your fault for not doingyour due diligence in the
enrolment process.
Angela Connell-Richards (05:51):
Yeah, yeah, and I, one of the things
that, um, I see will be uh, yeah, I, I'll go back first.
I agree, um, I think we need toknow if there are disabilities.
While she was talking, I wasthinking, actually, we should
know about health conditions aswell, particularly if we're
(06:16):
working with high-risk equipmentand they're going to be driving
a forklift truck or somethinglike that.
So, yeah, how do wecircumnavigate that?
So, yeah, how do wecircumnavigate that?
But I think the biggest part iswhat I experienced as an RTO.
When I ran my own RTO, mostpeople didn't feel in that they
(06:37):
had a disability and we had noidea until it raised its head
during.
So, in particular, mentalhealth, yeah, yeah.
And then it comes up and, like,we had a student that was off
her medication for bipolar andhad an episode within the
(06:58):
classroom and we had no idea, noone knew that she was bipolar.
No idea, no one knew that shewas bipolar.
So, uh, how do we?
How do we like, if we go to a,a point where that, if you wish,
you can put this in, well, howthen do we deal with that?
How do we deal with that?
And how does the trainer dealwith that?
And then that made me thinkabout where we're talking about
(07:22):
in the last episode, aboutsupport services and mental
health do, and we're looking athow trainers can identify mental
health issues.
Well, how do they identifyother disabilities as well, like
we need to?
So how do we adjust that?
(07:45):
Anyway, I like that can be ahuge part there.
But also, I think what hasn'treally changed is how we adjust
the training to meet studentneeds and how do we implement
reasonable adjustments.
So, from my point of view, whenit comes to reasonable
(08:08):
adjustments with disabilities,first point is as long as the
adjustment doesn't affect thetraining product requirements.
So if they're able to stilldeliver the competency or be
deemed competent with meetingall of the requirements, for
example, first aid.
(08:30):
First aid, you cannot work on amannequin on a table.
You need to be able to getphysically, get up and down off
the floor.
So that's just one example.
But so if you're in awheelchair, you're not going to
be able to do the full CPRrequirements when it comes to
first aid.
(08:50):
So and I've had this argumentwith RTOs before where they go,
no, no, we can accept everyone.
And I'm like, well, really Like, if someone drops to the floor
and the only person around issomeone on a wheelchair.
Are they going to be able toperform CPR on me, like I think
(09:14):
I would want someone around thatwould have, in particular if
they require first aid as a workrequirement?
So if they're doing a first aidcertificate as part of their
work requirement, I wouldn'twant them there to try and
respond to me.
I'd want them to be able to getup and down off the floor.
Okay, so, when it comes toreasonable adjustment and
(09:37):
implementing practicalstrategies, what are your
thoughts around that?
Lauren Hollows (09:42):
So I agree with everything you said.
First and foremost, it cannotimpact like, if your performance
evidence says you need to beable to do X, y and Z, we need
to be able to do X, y and Z.
So that's the first thing thatneeds to be considered as part
of that.
There are always been waysaround that.
So you know, we've had studentsin the past whereby they were
(10:03):
doing like carpentryqualifications and we couldn't
give them the full certificate.
But what we did was is wecovered all of the units.
We issued them with like 80 ofthe units.
But there were like four unitsthat you know we knew the person
wasn't going to be able to dobecause they were in a
wheelchair, um, but and then andthen we managed to find them
(10:24):
like a carpentry workplace.
So it wasn't, it was more likeum, find like a carpentry
workplace.
So it was more like joinery andcarpentry.
So it was more cabinet-makingsort of skills.
But we were able to adapt, wewere able to find an employer
that still worked and they werestill able to do the vast
majority of the units, and so itstill led them into employment,
right, and that was kind of thebig goal and outcome that we
(10:44):
wanted to get for, you know, andthat's the outcome we want for
a lot of the students, and we'vehad many situations over the
years where we've kind of gonewell, we're going to deliver the
theory on all of the units,we're going to be able to issue
this many of the units, andwe're still going to get you
into an employment outcome right.
And so do you get to get thestudents through the full
(11:05):
qualification all the time?
No, not necessarily does itmean that they can't participate
at all?
absolutely not right um, youreally want to figure out what
the goal of the training is, andI mean for me, 99 of the time,
the reason why a student's doingtraining is to get either get
into employment or get into abetter position within their
(11:28):
career pathway, right?
So look at how you can go aboutdoing that, but go in with eyes
open.
And certainly in all of thosesituations we had individual
student support plans where wesaid these are our
responsibilities, you know, aspart of this training.
These are your responsibilitiesas part of this training.
(11:49):
And here's how we're going tocheck in with each other on a
regular basis to make sure thatwe're following up with this
right.
So I think, as long as there'sclear communication in and
around what can and cannot beachieved, while making sure
you're meeting all of your otherRTO standards and requirements
and training package and thingslike that, you know it's
(12:10):
absolutely fine.
And I think even with like alot of the government funding
systems and stuff like that,they're supportive of that as
well.
Like I've done that via, youknow, like funding mechanisms
where we've gone to them gone,look, we're going to train them
in this, but like we're lettingyou know now that they're not
going to complete these units,we're only going to train them.
They're going to do the theorybecause you know they've got a
(12:31):
disability in XYZ.
So I think, as long as like, aslong as you understand and
you've got the agreement and Ithink actually a lot of RTOs do
a lot more of this than you knowpeople talk about, like I've
seen this through so manydifferent RTOs.
I've seen so many really cooladaptations done for students so
(12:53):
that they can participate incourses or get into employment.
Or you know, like, we've hadstudents in Farnall's Pilbara
that have been through justhorrific, you know, violence and
assaults and things like that,and we've put them like we've
kept them going in classesbecause they've literally turned
around and gone.
This is the only safe spacethat we have and we've gone.
(13:14):
Okay, we're just going to putyou to another course, like
because we know that this is thesafe space that you've gone.
We've had those conversationswith government as well.
So, ultimately, if you'rehaving really clear
communication and you'redocumenting that, I think it's
fine.
Where RTOs go wrong is that theydo all of these wonderful
things and they don't documentit.
(13:36):
No, and so when it comes to,like you know we've got an event
, this enrollment form, and thestudent assigned to say that
I've got an event, thisenrollment forum, and the
student is signed to say thatI've got ADD and dyslexia and
OCD and X, y and Z.
And then we go okay, and whatwas the support that was
provided to that student?
And the person goes well, wedid this and we did this, and we
(13:57):
did this and we did this.
And then they go okay, where'syour evidence of that?
And then now Tia will sit thereand go let me go talk to the
trainer and maybe there was anemail that was sent, like you
know and then ask us to sitthere and go.
But according to your studentsupport policy and procedure,
you have a student support formthat you utilise in all of these
(14:17):
cases.
And then the RTO goes uh-huh,yeah, we didn't fill that out.
Like and I feel for Rtos becauseI think it's like all the time
I'm like you have a policy, youhave a form and but like the
trainer.
Angela Connell-Richards (14:34):
The trainer just adapts on the go,
yeah, so, um, the trainer justgoes right, okay, I, okay, I
need to adjust the training andI need to fix this now.
And they don't think about, youknow, documenting it, and this
is where you really do need tohave.
(14:54):
We've got AI, we've got allsorts of tech that we can use
now where we could record whathappened.
You can go to your phone andjust record how you made an
adjustment and then put it ontothe student file, so there isn't
really any excuses, but it'slike you just need to think
about it.
Okay, how do we do this?
And that, whilst we werediscussing, I was thinking you
(15:17):
know what we really should betraining our trainers on how to
make reasonable adjustments, inparticular, for each individual
RTO.
What is a reasonable adjustmentthat can be for your training
products that you deliver and Ithink there's a lot more vet PD
now that trainers I will berequired to undertake because of
(15:38):
the new standards, and I thinkthis would be a really good
training on reasonableadjustment that's contextualised
for your training products, onyour scope of registration and
your learner cohort, and what isthe process that trainers need
to do in order to first identifya disability, if it's not
(16:02):
declared on the enrolment form,to how they document it.
Lauren Hollows (16:07):
I think the other area where I see RTOs
stuff up quite regularly is thatthe communication never goes to
the trainer in the first place,even where the student has.
So you know, there's a coupleof steps that need to happen in
order for all of this to happen.
One is that either a BDM or anadmin actually need to read the
(16:27):
enrollment form and need toinclude that information.
So like, again, if you have astudent management system that
none of your trainers can access, what's your process of
actually getting the trainersthis information?
You know, like I'm constantlylike we're just finalizing event
this for all of our rtos, um,and I've been going through on a
weekly basis and talking to myrtos and my admin and going,
(16:50):
guys, guys, I'm not seeing thisinformation.
This information hasn't beenuploaded, like you know, and
disability is a big one, rightDisability, and you know, the
two things that probably aremost consistently not entered
into student management systems,into A-Vitness data, is
information about disability andinformation about previous
training, and that speaksdirectly to whether or not we
(17:12):
should be offering studentscredit transfer.
And half the time you knowwe'll be doing like a funded
lodgement and it'll come backand it'll go.
No, we've already paid thestudent to teach that unit and
I'll go in and I'll go like thestudent said they'd completed a
Cert 3.
Please tell me somebody's goneback and asked them what insert
three they did yeah, and they'llturn around and go oh no, and
(17:35):
I'm gone.
Okay, have you got evidence ofthat?
Like, can we please go back andask the student what
qualification they've done?
And then I get the certificateand I'm looking, I'm going,
great.
So there's actually threecredit transfers in two of the
units we've already deliveredand so now we've delivered those
units, the student for somereason, has done the unit again,
not mentioned it to the trainer, and we've now been paid.
(17:57):
Like we now can't get paid todeliver that.
So we've wasted the student'stime, we've wasted the trainer's
time.
Like I get I.
I get very frustrated, I getangry.
Lauren comes out.
That's why I scare some of myfriends sometimes I do a lot of
times.
But, um, you know, like we seeit all the time and then the
same disabilities, and so theperson will disclose, like in
(18:18):
the.
In the case the persondiscloses this disability, has
that been documented in thestudent management system and
hasn't been passed on to thetrainer?
Like you know, it's, I've got,I've got um classrooms now where
we've got two, we've got likeup to two-thirds of the
classroom, right, particularlyin, like the vet in school space
(18:39):
, two-thirds of the classroomwill have a learning disability
of some sort, right, be itdyslexia, add, you know, autism,
like somewhere in thetwo-thirds of that class.
Now, again going back to, likeour last episode on student
support services, what doesstudent support services look
like when two-thirds of yourclass has got a learning
(19:02):
disability of some sort?
it's going to look a hell of alot different than like a class
where they're, you know, whereyou've got two students out of
25 that have got a learningdisability you know if you've
got 12 out of 18 students and Imean, you know, in a lot of
these sorts of classes weliterally have to cap training
at 16 people because we knowthat there's going to be high
(19:23):
rates of disabilities within thestudents or learning needs
within the students, and so wego.
We can't train any more than 16students because you know 11 of
them are probably going to havedyslexia or you know they're
going to have some sort ofbehavioral issue or whatever.
Like you can't put more than 10of those kids into a class
trainer, especially when, like,the trainer is teaching them how
(19:46):
to you know swing bricks or youknow use a power saw or things
like that.
Like, it's just not a good idea.
It's just not, no, not a goodidea.
Angela Connell-Richards (19:56):
No, in a previous life I used to
deliver foundation skillscourses.
So with foundation skills, andit was, all of the students had
a disability and I could onlyhandle 10.
Like you couldn't, I couldn'teven barely handle the 10
(20:17):
because it was so difficult.
They it was a variety ofAsperger's, adhd, autism, like
you name it.
We had it in this, this group,and for me as a trainer it was
draining.
It was like I'd go homeabsolutely exhausted and I only
(20:37):
taught the class once a week.
Yeah, it was, yeah.
So how are we supporting thetrainers who are working with
students with disabilities?
So and that's where we likeI'll go back to the training and
assessment strategy who areyour learner cohort?
That's how you determine theamount of support required.
(21:00):
But I think also we really needto be identifying for that
learner cohort.
What are the reasonableadjustments that may arise with
that learner cohort?
What are the reasonableadjustments that may arise with
that learner cohort?
So that is documented withinthe training and assessment
strategy so that the trainer isprepared and they have
(21:24):
strategies in place.
And I think, once again thatcomes back to we need to have
vet training or PD or pd forthose trainers so that they know
how to reasonably adjust, inparticular for that learner
cohort and that training product.
Lauren Hollows (21:40):
Yeah, yeah yeah, yeah you know, utilizing
systems, like you know, we needto be making sure that you know
where you can make, make thingseasier for students, make it
easier for the students.
Like I'll be honest, the vastmajority of students are far
better working on a phone, youknow, and typing an answer into
a phone than they are physicallyhandwriting it nowadays.
(22:02):
You know, like most of ourstudents, if they're under the
age of 25, they are going to bequicker typing it into a phone
or typing it onto a computerthan they are going to be
quicker typing it into a phoneor typing it onto a computer.
Then they are going to bephysically handwriting it.
Like a lot of students getfatigued super, super quick,
particularly males.
They'll get fatigued really,really quickly with handwriting
(22:23):
whereas, like, with typing orwe're doing this Do that all day
.
So utilise your systems, becausethen the other part of that is
that if they're doing this andit's going into a system, you
don't have a trainer that'shaving to, you know, hand it
over and collate it all to admin.
You don't have it.
You don't have them, themgetting lost and accidentally
left in trainers boots.
(22:43):
You don't have um admin thathave to sit there and scan up
copy after copy, after copyafter copy, and then save it as
an individual PDF file and thenput it onto the students.
You know seeing, like you know,there's all sorts of savings
that you guys can utilize inyour system.
So, as these new things come on, be utilizing your systems and
(23:05):
your processes to get businessefficiencies so that you can
have your trainers, trainersright, who are your generally
your most expensive commodityand they are the one where, like
you know, it's time is going tomake the most difference.
Make it so that when they arelike, the time that you are
paying them is going to be worth, like doing worthwhile tasks.
(23:28):
So if they're not directlytraining and assessing, then you
know, and then they should beeither undertaking PD.
Make the marking as absolutelyeasy as possible for them and I
even recommend, like, wherepossible, you know, utilize your
trainers a little bit moreeffectively.
Use your less experiencedtrainers to be doing your online
(23:48):
marking.
Don't use your like really goodon-the-ground trainers.
Um, you know, you've gotcertain trainers that are great
with their practicals and greatwith their training skills.
Utilize them for that.
Utilize your guys that are alittle bit like less or maybe
they're coming to the end oftheir training career and so
they like to, like you know,talk a little bit about
(24:10):
themselves to.
You know, like, move yourtrainers around.
You don't have to have onetrainer and assessor only
dealing with one group.
Right, you can move peoplearound and move them into doing
the things that they are best atdoing, like we've got trainers
who all they do is they do theonline marking because they're
very detail-oriented, they'rereally good at identifying
(24:32):
collusion and ai and all of thatsort of stuff and they're and
they enjoy it.
So they're happy to go back andforth with students and provide
that support and work throughwith the theory and stuff.
And then we've got othertrainers that like really hate
paperwork but they make theysmash out, they smash out
classroom like they love beingin the classroom, they love
being in the classroom, theylove being in a practical
setting and they providefantastic verbal feedback and
(24:55):
they really do build the skillsof their students and stuff like
that.
Like you know, think a littlebit outside the box in how you
go about structuring yourtraining and where you allocate
people to, and I think also,where you're talking about the
digital devices, much easier toadjust your training with
digital devices.
Angela Connell-Richards (25:15):
Like, if they've got, for example,
they're colourblind, they couldchange their digital device so
that it meets their requirements, so they're able to read
everything.
And there's, you know, a rangeof different things that you can
do with digital devices thatmakes it so much easier, such as
the question can be read out tothem by their phone so they can
(25:38):
just get it read out aloud,which will make it much easier.
So I think, yeah, I love thatidea about the digital devices
and I think we have like 90% ofthe population over the age of
16 has a mobile phone or somesort of digital device.
So I don't think it would beunreasonable.
(25:58):
But, once again, we need tomake sure, if you are going to
use digital devices, that it'svery clear on the marketing that
the pre-enrolment informationthat they will be required to
have a digital device.
So that just came to head whenI was, uh, saying that.
I was thinking, oh, yes, we'regoing to make sure we tell the
students that they need to havea digital device if it's
(26:20):
required you cannot offer adigital device to them because
that is majority of fundingcontracts, that's you know yes,
you could borrow.
You could mostly have a numberof ipads there or something that
you could uh lend to thestudents and that's recommended,
but just just no, no incentives.
(26:40):
We know no incentives.
We don't want to go there again.
No, definitely not.
Okay, thank you so much onceagain, lauren.
This has been fantastic, Ithink.
In summary, when it comes tostudent support with
disabilities, I don't think alot has changed compared to the
(27:04):
current legislation.
I think what has changed isthere's more of an emphasis on
how we're going to implementthat within our RTOs, and also
being aware for the trainers sothat they understand what that
process is, with reasonableadjustment.
I think it's just going to bemore of a focus on that and I've
(27:27):
said it already, thatreasonable adjustment is
relevant to the learner cohortand the training product.
I think, in a nutshell, that'swhat we need to focus on.
I think there's a lot of greatstrategies that people can put
into place and, with all thetech that we have now with AI,
there are so many things that wecan do to assist students to
get through their training, andI think it's been so good
(27:50):
hearing from you and your pointof view and your experience as
well.
That's been fantastic hearingabout your experience with
working with RTOs anddisabilities.
Lauren Hollows (28:02):
Thank you so much for having me, Angela, and
I can't wait to catch up againnext time.
Angela Connell-Richards (28:06):
Yeah, we're looking forward to it.
Next month, we're going to behaving a look at clear and
accurate student information, sovery, very important area.
So looking at how yourtransparency of the information
that you're providing to thestudents prior to course
commencement, but also duringwhilst they're doing their
(28:28):
training so we touched on thatwith support services and also
ensuring that the trainingproduct that they're doing their
training so we touched on thatwith support services and also
ensuring that the trainingproduct that they're enrolled in
is actually suitable to thestudent.
So I'm looking forward tocatching up with you again next
month and having a chat aboutthose topics.
Thanks again, Lauren, and byefor now.
Lauren Hollows (28:46):
Thanks, Ash.
Angela Connell-Richards (28:53):
And, of course, to real estate.
Welcome to the RTO Superhero Podcast
with my special guest, lauren,who we're going to be talking
today about supporting studentswith disabilities and under the
revised standards.
What do RTOs now need to do?
Welcome, lauren, to the RTOSuperhero Podcast.
Lauren Hollows (00:23):
Hello Angela.
Thank you for having me back.
I'm surprised you keep lettingme in here.
Angela Connell-Richards (00:30):
I love our conversations.
We could talk all day about allthese sort of things we
literally could talk all day,yeah, yeah.
So in our last podcast we talkedabout support services and we
had a very robust conversationabout what we think the changes
are going to be.
Now we're going to drill intodisabilities and what is it that
(00:52):
RTOs need to be mindful of and,in particular, looking at
legislation around disabilitysupport and what we now need to
apply when it comes to supportservices with disabilities.
So let's start with you whatare your thoughts around the
compliance requirements and whatRTOs may need to put into place
(01:15):
now when it comes todisabilities?
Lauren Hollows (01:18):
Yeah.
So I mean, look, this isprobably one of the few RTO
standards where I do have like abit of an issue with one of the
few RTO standards where I dohave like a bit of an issue with
one of the points.
So I think reasonable, like thereasonable adjustment stuff,
there was like a reference to itin the old standards, so there
was, I think I think it's justgood that they've kind of
fleshed it out now in a littlebit more detail.
(01:39):
And I think mainly this isgoing to relate to like 2.1, 2.2
and how 2.1, 2.2 mesh into 2.4,which is like really making
sure that we understand ifthere's a disability need and
how you're going to input thatin the workplace.
I guess and I understand thestandard A, but A says vet
(02:00):
standards.
Vet students are supported todisclose their disability if
they wish, and that's, I guessthat's.
My only issue is that, havingworked in a lot of colleges
where we've got high needstudents, quite often students
are reluctant to disclose adisability because they're
(02:21):
worried that like they won't belet in, they'll be told you know
no sorry, you know no luck, andI especially see this in like
the vet in school space.
So but say if they wish.
I think it leaves.
My concern is it leaves a gapfor RTOs whereby the student
(02:43):
doesn't disclose it and then itcomes to a head later on down
the track.
You know, like, for example, intelecommunications, we have to
know if the student iscolorblind.
If you're colorblind and you'retrying to work in
telecommunications, you canelectrocute yourself right.
So that's something where it'sit's super important that we
understand.
(03:03):
If you have a disability, um,it's also important for that.
We understand if you have adisability.
It's also important for me tounderstand if you've got, you
know, add dyslexia, so that Ican put support mechanisms in
place.
But for some of the otherdisabilities that you might have
, it could have a very realsafety impact on you know, on
(03:24):
things later on down the track.
Okay, like you know, if you'vegot, you know I'm blanking on
the disorder at the moment, but,like you know, confrontational
disorders and things like thatwhereby you're potentially if I
don't- manage your patients.
Yeah, I mean, look,low-functioning Asperger's can
definitely be.
(03:44):
You know you can present someof that as well.
But there are certain issueswhere, if I don't know what your
disability is I mean eventhings like you know anemia or
you know blood sugar issues andstuff like that If I don't know
about that and we've got,we're're running our practical
workshop, we're doingconstruction, it's a little bit
(04:06):
hot, we're running a little bitlate, we missed our break and I
don't know what your conditionis, and you that you're now
passed out in my you know you'rethen passed out with power
tools in your hands, right, Ifeel like that, if they wish, is
a bit of a risk.
So I think it's gonna, it's theimpetus is gonna be on rtos to
(04:28):
push in that area a little bitand to have information specific
to their courses as to like youneed to, just like we really do
want to know and please dodisclose if you've got any
student needs.
These are some of the studentneeds we need to understand from
a safety perspective, you know,and other needs we would just
(04:48):
like you know.
The more you share with us, thebetter we can adapt to make
sure the training is going to besuitable for you, right?
Um, so I think a is problematicwith that particular language
and I, because it's quitewishy-washy, I'm actually hoping
that it's going to be taken outwhen they go through that legal
process.
You know, as you wish, it's not.
From a legal perspective, it'sproblematic.
(05:09):
So I'm hoping that that littlestatement is going to be pulled
out.
If it does, then that's fine.
But it puts like the thing is,is that with RTOs, it is going
to put a very clear emphasis onthe fact that you guys do need
to figure out the students thatyou're accepting.
Once you take on that student,you are taking on the needs of
that student and you will berequired to account for them If
(05:30):
you are silly enough not to findout about them before the
course and now, all of a sudden,you're going to have to adapt
your facility, or you're goingto have to adapt your training,
or you're going to have to findalternate workplaces that are
going to be able to be suitablefor these students.
That's your fault for not doingyour due diligence in the
enrolment process.
Angela Connell-Richards (05:51):
Yeah, yeah, and I, one of the things
that, um, I see will be uh, yeah, I, I'll go back first.
I agree, um, I think we need toknow if there are disabilities.
While she was talking, I wasthinking, actually, we should
know about health conditions aswell, particularly if we're
(06:16):
working with high-risk equipmentand they're going to be driving
a forklift truck or somethinglike that.
So, yeah, how do wecircumnavigate that?
So, yeah, how do wecircumnavigate that?
But I think the biggest part iswhat I experienced as an RTO.
When I ran my own RTO, mostpeople didn't feel in that they
(06:37):
had a disability and we had noidea until it raised its head
during.
So, in particular, mentalhealth, yeah, yeah.
And then it comes up and, like,we had a student that was off
her medication for bipolar andhad an episode within the
(06:58):
classroom and we had no idea, noone knew that she was bipolar.
No idea, no one knew that shewas bipolar.
So, uh, how do we?
How do we like, if we go to a,a point where that, if you wish,
you can put this in, well, howthen do we deal with that?
How do we deal with that?
And how does the trainer dealwith that?
And then that made me thinkabout where we're talking about
(07:22):
in the last episode, aboutsupport services and mental
health do, and we're looking athow trainers can identify mental
health issues.
Well, how do they identifyother disabilities as well, like
we need to?
So how do we adjust that?
(07:45):
Anyway, I like that can be ahuge part there.
But also, I think what hasn'treally changed is how we adjust
the training to meet studentneeds and how do we implement
reasonable adjustments.
So, from my point of view, whenit comes to reasonable
(08:08):
adjustments with disabilities,first point is as long as the
adjustment doesn't affect thetraining product requirements.
So if they're able to stilldeliver the competency or be
deemed competent with meetingall of the requirements, for
example, first aid.
(08:30):
First aid, you cannot work on amannequin on a table.
You need to be able to getphysically, get up and down off
the floor.
So that's just one example.
But so if you're in awheelchair, you're not going to
be able to do the full CPRrequirements when it comes to
first aid.
(08:50):
So and I've had this argumentwith RTOs before where they go,
no, no, we can accept everyone.
And I'm like, well, really Like, if someone drops to the floor
and the only person around issomeone on a wheelchair.
Are they going to be able toperform CPR on me, like I think
(09:14):
I would want someone around thatwould have, in particular if
they require first aid as a workrequirement?
So if they're doing a first aidcertificate as part of their
work requirement, I wouldn'twant them there to try and
respond to me.
I'd want them to be able to getup and down off the floor.
Okay, so, when it comes toreasonable adjustment and
(09:37):
implementing practicalstrategies, what are your
thoughts around that?
Lauren Hollows (09:42):
So I agree with everything you said.
First and foremost, it cannotimpact like, if your performance
evidence says you need to beable to do X, y and Z, we need
to be able to do X, y and Z.
So that's the first thing thatneeds to be considered as part
of that.
There are always been waysaround that.
So you know, we've had studentsin the past whereby they were
(10:03):
doing like carpentryqualifications and we couldn't
give them the full certificate.
But what we did was is wecovered all of the units.
We issued them with like 80 ofthe units.
But there were like four unitsthat you know we knew the person
wasn't going to be able to dobecause they were in a
wheelchair, um, but and then andthen we managed to find them
(10:24):
like a carpentry workplace.
So it wasn't, it was more likeum, find like a carpentry
workplace.
So it was more like joinery andcarpentry.
So it was more cabinet-makingsort of skills.
But we were able to adapt, wewere able to find an employer
that still worked and they werestill able to do the vast
majority of the units, and so itstill led them into employment,
right, and that was kind of thebig goal and outcome that we
(10:44):
wanted to get for, you know, andthat's the outcome we want for
a lot of the students, and we'vehad many situations over the
years where we've kind of gonewell, we're going to deliver the
theory on all of the units,we're going to be able to issue
this many of the units, andwe're still going to get you
into an employment outcome right.
And so do you get to get thestudents through the full
(11:05):
qualification all the time?
No, not necessarily does itmean that they can't participate
at all?
absolutely not right um, youreally want to figure out what
the goal of the training is, andI mean for me, 99 of the time,
the reason why a student's doingtraining is to get either get
into employment or get into abetter position within their
(11:28):
career pathway, right?
So look at how you can go aboutdoing that, but go in with eyes
open.
And certainly in all of thosesituations we had individual
student support plans where wesaid these are our
responsibilities, you know, aspart of this training.
These are your responsibilitiesas part of this training.
(11:49):
And here's how we're going tocheck in with each other on a
regular basis to make sure thatwe're following up with this
right.
So I think, as long as there'sclear communication in and
around what can and cannot beachieved, while making sure
you're meeting all of your otherRTO standards and requirements
and training package and thingslike that, you know it's
(12:10):
absolutely fine.
And I think even with like alot of the government funding
systems and stuff like that,they're supportive of that as
well.
Like I've done that via, youknow, like funding mechanisms
where we've gone to them gone,look, we're going to train them
in this, but like we're lettingyou know now that they're not
going to complete these units,we're only going to train them.
They're going to do the theorybecause you know they've got a
(12:31):
disability in XYZ.
So I think, as long as like, aslong as you understand and
you've got the agreement and Ithink actually a lot of RTOs do
a lot more of this than you knowpeople talk about, like I've
seen this through so manydifferent RTOs.
I've seen so many really cooladaptations done for students so
(12:53):
that they can participate incourses or get into employment.
Or you know, like, we've hadstudents in Farnall's Pilbara
that have been through justhorrific, you know, violence and
assaults and things like that,and we've put them like we've
kept them going in classesbecause they've literally turned
around and gone.
This is the only safe spacethat we have and we've gone.
(13:14):
Okay, we're just going to putyou to another course, like
because we know that this is thesafe space that you've gone.
We've had those conversationswith government as well.
So, ultimately, if you'rehaving really clear
communication and you'redocumenting that, I think it's
fine.
Where RTOs go wrong is that theydo all of these wonderful
things and they don't documentit.
(13:36):
No, and so when it comes to,like you know we've got an event
, this enrollment form, and thestudent assigned to say that
I've got an event, thisenrollment forum, and the
student is signed to say thatI've got ADD and dyslexia and
OCD and X, y and Z.
And then we go okay, and whatwas the support that was
provided to that student?
And the person goes well, wedid this and we did this, and we
(13:57):
did this and we did this.
And then they go okay, where'syour evidence of that?
And then now Tia will sit thereand go let me go talk to the
trainer and maybe there was anemail that was sent, like you
know and then ask us to sitthere and go.
But according to your studentsupport policy and procedure,
you have a student support formthat you utilise in all of these
(14:17):
cases.
And then the RTO goes uh-huh,yeah, we didn't fill that out.
Like and I feel for Rtos becauseI think it's like all the time
I'm like you have a policy, youhave a form and but like the
trainer.
Angela Connell-Richards (14:34):
The trainer just adapts on the go,
yeah, so, um, the trainer justgoes right, okay, I, okay, I
need to adjust the training andI need to fix this now.
And they don't think about, youknow, documenting it, and this
is where you really do need tohave.
(14:54):
We've got AI, we've got allsorts of tech that we can use
now where we could record whathappened.
You can go to your phone andjust record how you made an
adjustment and then put it ontothe student file, so there isn't
really any excuses, but it'slike you just need to think
about it.
Okay, how do we do this?
And that, whilst we werediscussing, I was thinking you
(15:17):
know what we really should betraining our trainers on how to
make reasonable adjustments, inparticular, for each individual
RTO.
What is a reasonable adjustmentthat can be for your training
products that you deliver and Ithink there's a lot more vet PD
now that trainers I will berequired to undertake because of
(15:38):
the new standards, and I thinkthis would be a really good
training on reasonableadjustment that's contextualised
for your training products, onyour scope of registration and
your learner cohort, and what isthe process that trainers need
to do in order to first identifya disability, if it's not
(16:02):
declared on the enrolment form,to how they document it.
Lauren Hollows (16:07):
I think the other area where I see RTOs
stuff up quite regularly is thatthe communication never goes to
the trainer in the first place,even where the student has.
So you know, there's a coupleof steps that need to happen in
order for all of this to happen.
One is that either a BDM or anadmin actually need to read the
(16:27):
enrollment form and need toinclude that information.
So like, again, if you have astudent management system that
none of your trainers can access, what's your process of
actually getting the trainersthis information?
You know, like I'm constantlylike we're just finalizing event
this for all of our rtos, um,and I've been going through on a
weekly basis and talking to myrtos and my admin and going,
(16:50):
guys, guys, I'm not seeing thisinformation.
This information hasn't beenuploaded, like you know, and
disability is a big one, rightDisability, and you know, the
two things that probably aremost consistently not entered
into student management systems,into A-Vitness data, is
information about disability andinformation about previous
training, and that speaksdirectly to whether or not we
(17:12):
should be offering studentscredit transfer.
And half the time you knowwe'll be doing like a funded
lodgement and it'll come backand it'll go.
No, we've already paid thestudent to teach that unit and
I'll go in and I'll go like thestudent said they'd completed a
Cert 3.
Please tell me somebody's goneback and asked them what insert
three they did yeah, and they'llturn around and go oh no, and
(17:35):
I'm gone.
Okay, have you got evidence ofthat?
Like, can we please go back andask the student what
qualification they've done?
And then I get the certificateand I'm looking, I'm going,
great.
So there's actually threecredit transfers in two of the
units we've already deliveredand so now we've delivered those
units, the student for somereason, has done the unit again,
not mentioned it to the trainer, and we've now been paid.
(17:57):
Like we now can't get paid todeliver that.
So we've wasted the student'stime, we've wasted the trainer's
time.
Like I get I.
I get very frustrated, I getangry.
Lauren comes out.
That's why I scare some of myfriends sometimes I do a lot of
times.
But, um, you know, like we seeit all the time and then the
same disabilities, and so theperson will disclose, like in
(18:18):
the.
In the case the persondiscloses this disability, has
that been documented in thestudent management system and
hasn't been passed on to thetrainer?
Like you know, it's, I've got,I've got um classrooms now where
we've got two, we've got likeup to two-thirds of the
classroom, right, particularlyin, like the vet in school space
(18:39):
, two-thirds of the classroomwill have a learning disability
of some sort, right, be itdyslexia, add, you know, autism,
like somewhere in thetwo-thirds of that class.
Now, again going back to, likeour last episode on student
support services, what doesstudent support services look
like when two-thirds of yourclass has got a learning
(19:02):
disability of some sort?
it's going to look a hell of alot different than like a class
where they're, you know, whereyou've got two students out of
25 that have got a learningdisability you know if you've
got 12 out of 18 students and Imean, you know, in a lot of
these sorts of classes weliterally have to cap training
at 16 people because we knowthat there's going to be high
(19:23):
rates of disabilities within thestudents or learning needs
within the students, and so wego.
We can't train any more than 16students because you know 11 of
them are probably going to havedyslexia or you know they're
going to have some sort ofbehavioral issue or whatever.
Like you can't put more than 10of those kids into a class
trainer, especially when, like,the trainer is teaching them how
(19:46):
to you know swing bricks or youknow use a power saw or things
like that.
Like, it's just not a good idea.
It's just not, no, not a goodidea.
Angela Connell-Richards (19:56):
No, in a previous life I used to
deliver foundation skillscourses.
So with foundation skills, andit was, all of the students had
a disability and I could onlyhandle 10.
Like you couldn't, I couldn'teven barely handle the 10
(20:17):
because it was so difficult.
They it was a variety ofAsperger's, adhd, autism, like
you name it.
We had it in this, this group,and for me as a trainer it was
draining.
It was like I'd go homeabsolutely exhausted and I only
(20:37):
taught the class once a week.
Yeah, it was, yeah.
So how are we supporting thetrainers who are working with
students with disabilities?
So and that's where we likeI'll go back to the training and
assessment strategy who areyour learner cohort?
That's how you determine theamount of support required.
(21:00):
But I think also we really needto be identifying for that
learner cohort.
What are the reasonableadjustments that may arise with
that learner cohort?
What are the reasonableadjustments that may arise with
that learner cohort?
So that is documented withinthe training and assessment
strategy so that the trainer isprepared and they have
(21:24):
strategies in place.
And I think, once again thatcomes back to we need to have
vet training or PD or pd forthose trainers so that they know
how to reasonably adjust, inparticular for that learner
cohort and that training product.
Lauren Hollows (21:40):
Yeah, yeah yeah, yeah you know, utilizing
systems, like you know, we needto be making sure that you know
where you can make, make thingseasier for students, make it
easier for the students.
Like I'll be honest, the vastmajority of students are far
better working on a phone, youknow, and typing an answer into
a phone than they are physicallyhandwriting it nowadays.
(22:02):
You know, like most of ourstudents, if they're under the
age of 25, they are going to bequicker typing it into a phone
or typing it onto a computerthan they are going to be
quicker typing it into a phoneor typing it onto a computer.
Then they are going to bephysically handwriting it.
Like a lot of students getfatigued super, super quick,
particularly males.
They'll get fatigued really,really quickly with handwriting
(22:23):
whereas, like, with typing orwe're doing this Do that all day
.
So utilise your systems, becausethen the other part of that is
that if they're doing this andit's going into a system, you
don't have a trainer that'shaving to, you know, hand it
over and collate it all to admin.
You don't have it.
You don't have them, themgetting lost and accidentally
left in trainers boots.
(22:43):
You don't have um admin thathave to sit there and scan up
copy after copy, after copyafter copy, and then save it as
an individual PDF file and thenput it onto the students.
You know seeing, like you know,there's all sorts of savings
that you guys can utilize inyour system.
So, as these new things come on, be utilizing your systems and
(23:05):
your processes to get businessefficiencies so that you can
have your trainers, trainersright, who are your generally
your most expensive commodityand they are the one where, like
you know, it's time is going tomake the most difference.
Make it so that when they arelike, the time that you are
paying them is going to be worth, like doing worthwhile tasks.
(23:28):
So if they're not directlytraining and assessing, then you
know, and then they should beeither undertaking PD.
Make the marking as absolutelyeasy as possible for them and I
even recommend, like, wherepossible, you know, utilize your
trainers a little bit moreeffectively.
Use your less experiencedtrainers to be doing your online
(23:48):
marking.
Don't use your like really goodon-the-ground trainers.
Um, you know, you've gotcertain trainers that are great
with their practicals and greatwith their training skills.
Utilize them for that.
Utilize your guys that are alittle bit like less or maybe
they're coming to the end oftheir training career and so
they like to, like you know,talk a little bit about
(24:10):
themselves to.
You know, like, move yourtrainers around.
You don't have to have onetrainer and assessor only
dealing with one group.
Right, you can move peoplearound and move them into doing
the things that they are best atdoing, like we've got trainers
who all they do is they do theonline marking because they're
very detail-oriented, they'rereally good at identifying
(24:32):
collusion and ai and all of thatsort of stuff and they're and
they enjoy it.
So they're happy to go back andforth with students and provide
that support and work throughwith the theory and stuff.
And then we've got othertrainers that like really hate
paperwork but they make theysmash out, they smash out
classroom like they love beingin the classroom, they love
being in the classroom, theylove being in a practical
setting and they providefantastic verbal feedback and
(24:55):
they really do build the skillsof their students and stuff like
that.
Like you know, think a littlebit outside the box in how you
go about structuring yourtraining and where you allocate
people to, and I think also,where you're talking about the
digital devices, much easier toadjust your training with
digital devices.
Angela Connell-Richards (25:15):
Like, if they've got, for example,
they're colourblind, they couldchange their digital device so
that it meets their requirements, so they're able to read
everything.
And there's, you know, a rangeof different things that you can
do with digital devices thatmakes it so much easier, such as
the question can be read out tothem by their phone so they can
(25:38):
just get it read out aloud,which will make it much easier.
So I think, yeah, I love thatidea about the digital devices
and I think we have like 90% ofthe population over the age of
16 has a mobile phone or somesort of digital device.
So I don't think it would beunreasonable.
(25:58):
But, once again, we need tomake sure, if you are going to
use digital devices, that it'svery clear on the marketing that
the pre-enrolment informationthat they will be required to
have a digital device.
So that just came to head whenI was, uh, saying that.
I was thinking, oh, yes, we'regoing to make sure we tell the
students that they need to havea digital device if it's
(26:20):
required you cannot offer adigital device to them because
that is majority of fundingcontracts, that's you know yes,
you could borrow.
You could mostly have a numberof ipads there or something that
you could uh lend to thestudents and that's recommended,
but just just no, no incentives.
(26:40):
We know no incentives.
We don't want to go there again.
No, definitely not.
Okay, thank you so much onceagain, lauren.
This has been fantastic, Ithink.
In summary, when it comes tostudent support with
disabilities, I don't think alot has changed compared to the
(27:04):
current legislation.
I think what has changed isthere's more of an emphasis on
how we're going to implementthat within our RTOs, and also
being aware for the trainers sothat they understand what that
process is, with reasonableadjustment.
I think it's just going to bemore of a focus on that and I've
(27:27):
said it already, thatreasonable adjustment is
relevant to the learner cohortand the training product.
I think, in a nutshell, that'swhat we need to focus on.
I think there's a lot of greatstrategies that people can put
into place and, with all thetech that we have now with AI,
there are so many things that wecan do to assist students to
get through their training, andI think it's been so good
(27:50):
hearing from you and your pointof view and your experience as
well.
That's been fantastic hearingabout your experience with
working with RTOs anddisabilities.
Lauren Hollows (28:02):
Thank you so much for having me, Angela, and
I can't wait to catch up againnext time.
Angela Connell-Richards (28:06):
Yeah, we're looking forward to it.
Next month, we're going to behaving a look at clear and
accurate student information, sovery, very important area.
So looking at how yourtransparency of the information
that you're providing to thestudents prior to course
commencement, but also duringwhilst they're doing their
(28:28):
training so we touched on thatwith support services and also
ensuring that the trainingproduct that they're doing their
training so we touched on thatwith support services and also
ensuring that the trainingproduct that they're enrolled in
is actually suitable to thestudent.
So I'm looking forward tocatching up with you again next
month and having a chat aboutthose topics.
Thanks again, Lauren, and byefor now.
Lauren Hollows (28:46):
Thanks, Ash.
Angela Connell-Richards (28:53):
And, of course, to real estate.
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Therapy Gecko
An unlicensed lizard psychologist travels the universe talking to strangers about absolutely nothing. TO CALL THE GECKO: follow me on https://www.twitch.tv/lyleforever to get a notification for when I am taking calls. I am usually live Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays but lately a lot of other times too. I am a gecko.