February 25, 2025 • 36 mins
Join Angela Connell-Richards and Lauren Hollows in this insightful episode of the RTO Superhero Podcast, where they break down the changes to VET Student Support Services under the Revised Standards for RTOs.
With the introduction of Standards 2.3 and 2.4, student support has now been given its own Quality Area, significantly impacting how RTOs must provide and document services. Angela and Lauren discuss:
✅ The shift from Clause 1.7 to a dedicated Quality Area for student support
✅ The impact on RTOs delivering online and RPL courses
✅ Ensuring reasonable access to trainers and assessors—what’s required?
✅ Tracking student progress and well-being throughout their training
✅ Leveraging technology and AI to enhance student support
✅ The role of mental health awareness in trainer and assessor responsibilities
✅ How to incorporate well-being units into training products
With completion rates being a key concern in the VET sector, providing the right support from enrolment to graduation is more critical than ever. Angela and Lauren explore practical strategies to help RTOs comply with these new standards while also enhancing student outcomes.
🚀 Don’t miss this deep dive into one of the most significant changes in the new standards!
🔔 Subscribe to the RTO Superhero Podcast for expert insights on compliance, governance, and best practices in VET.
Join host Angela Connell-Richards as she opens each episode with a burst of insight and inspiration. Discover why compliance is your launchpad to success, not a limitation.
Connect with fellow RTO professionals in our free Facebook groups: the RTO Community and RTO Job Board. Visit rtosuperhero.au/groups to join today.
Wrap up with gratitude and guidance. Subscribe, leave a review, and join our community as we continue supporting your compliance journey in vocational education.
Thank you for tuning in to the RTO Superhero Podcast!
We’re excited to have you join us as we focus on the Revised Standards for RTOs in 2025. Together, we’ll explore key changes, compliance strategies, and actionable insights to help your RTO thrive under the new standards.
Stay connected with the RTO Community:
📌 Don’t forget to:
✔ Subscribe to the RTO Superhero Podcast so you never miss an episode!
✔ Share this episode with your RTO network—compliance is a team effort!
🎙 Listen now and get ahead of the compliance changes before it’s too late!
📢 Want even more compliance insights? Subscribe to our EduStream YouTube Channel for our FAQ series on the New Standards for RTOs 2025! 🎥
🔗 Subscribe now: EduStream by Vivacity Coaching
✉️ Email us at hello@vivacity.com.au
📞 Call us on 1300 729 455
🖥️ Visit us at vivacity.com.au
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Angela Connell-Richards (00:04):
Welcome to the RTO Superhero Podcast
and with my special guest,lauren Hollows, who's joining me
for the whole year, this year,where we're going to be breaking
down the standards and what'sinvolved with what the RTOs need
to do in order to prepare forthe new standards.
So Lauren and I just had a chatabout what we've been doing and
(00:27):
the amount of documents thatwe've been working on.
I've already I'm about 30% ofthe way through rewriting all of
our documents which we'vealready identified.
There will be over 200documents that we're going to be
providing, and there's alsoquite a bit around student
support and well-being.
(00:48):
So welcome, lauren, to theSuperhero Podcast.
Thank you so much, angela.
I'm happy to be back.
Awesome.
So let's dive in.
So this episode is onunderstanding vet support
services and really looking atwhat's changed with the new
(01:09):
revised standards.
So the focus is on standard 2.3and 2.4, which is training vet
student support so that's howthey've actually named that
quality area.
So there's a whole quality areaon it.
So I'd love to know know,lauren, where are you at, what
do you think about the changesand what do you think is the
(01:30):
most important changes thatthey've made?
Lauren Hollows (01:32):
um, so I actually really like the
standard.
I think we previously only had1.7, which what didn't really
wasn't.
There wasn't a lot ofinformation in there um, and
obviously, student support.
If you're not adapting to yourstudents, if you're not
providing support for yourstudents, then it's very, very
(01:53):
hard to get them to the end, andcompletion rates are such a
massive thing in our sector.
And I think a lot of thatrelates to, if it doesn't relate
to, contextualizationcontextualization of assessment
tools, it's relating to studentsupport and taking on students,
whereby you haven't reallyexplained what the program is
and how it's going to run andtherefore it's actually not
(02:13):
suitable for the students.
So this aligns the broadstandards much more with, like,
what's already required ingovernment funding contracts,
what's already required by ESOS,what's already required in
government funding contracts,what's already required by ESOS,
and so I think that this youknow that what's within these
standards broadly makes a lot ofsense.
I also think it's going to forthe RPL RTOs, for our online
(02:43):
RTOs, it's going to have afairly major economic and
business operational impact.
Angela Connell-Richards (02:46):
I totally agree.
Lauren Hollows (02:47):
They really look .
For some of them they'reamazing, they're fantastic, they
work really well, but forothers have, just to be
perfectly candid, dropped theball.
You know RTOs where they sayyou've got 12 months to do the
course online.
My son's recently been goingthrough a course in retail and
he wasn't allowed to do thepractical of any unit right
(03:10):
until the end of the course andso he's been working in industry
.
He's been working at a jobpart-time for the last year and
when we've been going throughthe hours, they're like well,
your hours only start at the end.
Once we've completed and youwill be going over the 12 months
, you're going to be charged anadditional fee and I'm going
actually hold on a second.
Guys, let's just look atfairness and flexibility.
(03:32):
He's been working in this placefor all these time like and I'm
happy to go back and explainlike fairness and flexibility
and student support, and you'veactually got to explain these
things and currency and validityright.
so I think that there is a lotof aspects for those particular
rtos that this is going toimpact like.
(03:54):
Ultimately, if you take on theresponsibility of a student, if
you're going to take money froma student, you have a
responsibility to provide themwith some support to get them to
the end of that course, and Ithink that there has been a lot
of issues in this area, and thisis where we have seen some of
the rorting happening in thepast, where we're going in and
(04:16):
we're enrolling students thataren't suitable for the courses.
We're never going to be able toprovide the student support
that they need to get through tothe end of it.
We didn't bother doing a propercheck to make sure what their
disability or what their needswere prior to enrolling them
properly in the course, and so,therefore, we ended up with much
lower completion rates than weshould have.
(04:37):
So I'm hoping that throughputting these standards into
place I think reading some ofthe specifics of the actual, you
know standards, that's whowe're going to be talking like,
that's who the regulator isgoing to be looking at in those
processes.
Angela Connell-Richards (04:55):
Yeah, and I totally agree with all of
those.
One of the really importantparts like I love support
services as well.
I think it definitely shouldn'tbe one clause.
It should be more encompassingwhen it comes to or inclusive, I
suppose, when it comes tolooking after all of our
(05:18):
students.
Thing that I major changes thatI've seen is one is that
language, literacy, numeracy anddigital skills and how are we
assessing that prior to coursecommencement, so that
information that we'redisseminating prior to course
commencement and alsoascertaining whether the student
(05:41):
is this and the course issuitable for that student and do
they have those foundationskills in order to successfully
complete the training.
I think that's what I found isit's more highlighted now within
the revised standards.
And then the other thing is ishow are we checking in on the
(06:03):
students on a regular basisthroughout their training?
So, yes, they may have gotthrough the LLND assessment, but
how are we checking theiracademic progress throughout the
training?
So that's something that I'veseen is a bit different coming
up with ideas of how do we dothat, like the trainers are
(06:25):
going to need to do, likequizzes or things like that, to
identify that on an ongoing.
Then the other part was for meis how are we disseminating
information to the student on aregular basis?
So this has not been somethingthat's been highlighted before
(06:45):
in previous standards.
Where it's with information,it's not just your marketing
materials, it is how are youensuring that the student knows
how to access support servicesand are we notifying students?
Do you need support?
It's not just here's yourstudent handbook and then off
you go support.
(07:07):
It's not just here's yourstudent handbook and then off
you go.
Six months later you have noidea where you, where that
student handbook's gone and youdon't know what.
You don't even know if the RTOoffers support services.
So it's making sure thatstudents are aware of those
policies and procedures how tosubmit a complaint, how to get
academic support and that leadsme in really well into getting
(07:28):
reasonable access to trainersand assessors.
What are your thoughts aroundthat?
Lauren Hollows (07:35):
I mean, this is not like.
I'd love to see somebody argueagainst this and be like why
should they have to havereasonable access to their
trainers and assessors?
Like you know we often like,and assessors like um, yeah, you
know we go, we often I got, Ioften go in and you know me like
I'm a massive, I'm a data girl,like I love to.
I'll get into their studentmanagement system, I'll pull
reports and start pulling dataand stuff like that and I'm like
(07:56):
okay, you know, like withcricost rtos, this is not
generally an issue.
You're generally looking atlike a 1 to 40, 1 to 60 at most.
Um, that's, that's kind of theratio that you're going to be
working with, right.
Um, when we're working with thetraineeship and apprenticeship
rtos, it can vary.
Like you can go from anywhere,from like a 1 to I probably see
(08:21):
maybe even like up to 1 to like200, just depending on whether
or not they're doing like groupsin the workplace or if they're
doing that block model sort oftraining right.
We can get much higher ratiosof trainer to student in those
sorts of scenarios.
But then, like you know,sometimes we'll go into colleges
(08:41):
and we'll look at it andthey'll have like a one to 500
ratio and I'm kind of going okay, you've got a 1 to 500 ratio.
I can almost guarantee, ifyou've got a 1 to 500 ratio,
your completion rate is going tobe below 30%.
You're going to have a massivedrop-off rate of students from
enrollment to commencement.
You know your onboarding processis probably crap, um, and so I
(09:05):
think that this is where, likeyou know, rtos need to be
looking at their data and kindof going okay, well, what's
reasonable, like what'sreasonable for an online rto?
How many students can a trainerreasonably have?
What is the expectation of howmuch time students should be
sending?
And look, you could be doingbusiness training and you could
(09:28):
be doing lectures every weekwith 150 students in a zoom pool
, and then you know, you've got.
You've got, maybe you know,five or six sessions throughout
the week where students can jumpin on tutorials or where they
can jump in on student supportsessions or where they can book
in with you, and yet maybepotentially, that's all working
(09:49):
really well because you've got awhole load of automated
processes that happen in thebackground.
You know accelerates about tolaunch its AI tutor.
Later on this year you may havean LMS that already has that
sort of functionality built intoit, so there are certainly ways
that you can do it, and whenyou're really good at utilizing
(10:09):
your system, when your admin iskicking goals, when you've got a
trainer who's super organized,that's like 0.5% of RTOs, though
.
Like the vast majority of RTOsare God bless their cotton socks
just not that organized.
Rtos are God bless theirconsults just not that organized
(10:30):
.
They are not that wellresourced.
And so I think that you knowthis is going to be a highlight
to that.
I've noticed in state fundingcontracts they're actually now
asking us to put in what is thestudent to staff ratio.
They certainly check that in.
Angela Connell-Richards (10:40):
We're seeing in ASCA audits too.
Yeah yeah.
Lauren Hollows (10:44):
So I think that that's going to be something
that you know does need to befocused on, and I think that,
from a business operationalperspective because you and I
both operate with rtos on likeokay, but yeah, let's like be
realistic about bottom lines andwe, we want every.
There needs to be viability andstuff like that.
So the RTOs that are going todo well through this are the
(11:05):
RTOs that are going to have areally good student management
system, a really good learnermanagement system, and they are
putting in place a lot of thesefeatures.
Right, If I talk to RTOs, I wastalking to one a couple of
weeks ago and they had somethinglike 4,000 or 5,000 students
and I was like you, like thesystem that they were on.
I was like you really can't beon this system.
(11:27):
Like you've got only five usersthat have got access to the
system.
Your trainers don't have accessto the student management
system.
You don't have a proper LMS.
Like you've got the shitty oldMoodle one where students can't
access your policies andprocedures.
We can't enroll them in a newcourse, there's no talking
between the systems, and theywere like but you know so and so
(11:49):
is going to be really expensivefor us.
I'm like do you have any ideahow much this system is going to
save you?
I'm like there's like two adminpeople that are pulling
spreadsheets and reportingspreadsheets to you on a weekly
basis yep like the time, thetime it's going to save, and
that is 120 000.
The system that we're going tobe talking about is not 120 000
(12:11):
a year, but that's what you'regoing to be saving like, so I
think that it does.
Really, it is going to bereally interesting when we talk
about student support servicesand documenting it and being
able to offer, like making surethat the physical people you've
got in the business are going tobe able to give the best value
for money.
You have to have that back-endsupport.
Angela Connell-Richards (12:34):
Well, there's so much good tech out
there now, Like there's all thisgreat technology, a lot of AI
being incorporated now, andinstead of being afraid of it,
people should be embracing itbecause it's going to allow you
to give more customer service toyour students.
Yeah, yeah, I definitely agreewith that.
(12:54):
And the other part, withreasonable access what I've read
into the standards is makingsure that you include in your
calendar, so you have yourcalendar of schedule of all your
training.
When is it that the studentshave one-on-one access to the
trainers and assessors?
(13:14):
And my thought process is thatyou need to include that in your
training calendar and it can beface-to-face or online, no
matter different forums.
And the other one I recommendedwas you know, put a Facebook
group together or use yourlearning management system where
the student, if they're loggingin regularly, you could put a
(13:36):
post in there and get discussionboards going in there.
So I think, when it comes toreasonable access to trainers, I
think, yeah, you should bedoing this.
And students need.
They don't know when they needsupport and they often will not
ask for support unless they'vegot that one-on-one opportunity
(13:59):
where they don't have to beembarrassed about asking a
question in front of all theother students.
So that's my thoughts on that.
Lauren Hollows (14:09):
And I think there's a lot of cultural
aspects that filter into that aswell.
So, understanding that,depending on, like your cohort,
your delivery model, like, ifyou are dealing with job seekers
as a cohort, right, you'reoften dealing with people who've
had really poor experiences inschool and so people wanting to
put themselves out there andrisk, like, what they may see is
(14:31):
, you know, asking a stupidquestion that's going to be, you
know, reasonable support for ajob seeker cohort is going to be
very, very different, and Ithink this is the discussion
I've had with a lot of RTOs.
Like we've got RTOs that are,you know, literally only
offering graduate diplomas forpeople who've already got, you
know, a bachelor's degree right.
We've got short course RTOs whoare only offering one day
(14:53):
courses in the civilconstruction sector.
We've got RTOs who are in thecry cost space.
We've got RTOs who are in thejob seeker space.
This is where that reasonableword comes into play and it's
going to be really important andI know that you've done this in
your policies and I've donethis in my policies is like for
that particular cohort let'sdefine what reasonable is okay
(15:18):
and we're not going to put onestandard against every single
student.
So if you're an RTO and you'regoing, well you know, I had a
friend tell me that they wentthrough an ASCII audit.
They were expected to do this,so I'm going to have to be
expected to do that, but that'sa massive imposter on my
business.
I'm like, well, well, well,Like it's not going to be a one
(15:39):
size fits all approach.
Ascii is going to take the sameapproach as to like what is
reasonable for your cohort.
If you tell me you're takingten thousand dollars from a
student, you're working withthem for a full year.
You're expecting them to be inclass two and a half days a week
.
Reasonable support for thatstudent is different than the
student that pays 99 to come inand do a one day first aid class
(16:00):
.
We're not going to expect thesame thing for a and for b, and
I think that's what stresses outRTOs is like they hear one
thing and then they should be inyour TAS.
Angela Connell-Richards (16:12):
It should be in your training and
assessment strategy.
So what is your supportservices that you need to
provide for that particularlearner cohort and the
qualification that they'reundertaking?
Once again, as you said, twoand a half days a week, one day,
um?
Or are they going to be withyou all year?
Or is it, um?
(16:33):
Is it going to be they come inonce a month, so you've got to
like, or online you were talkingabout earlier.
I think online is going to behave the biggest impact when it
comes to support services,because how many online courses
I know that I've done where it'sjust here's your login details
and off you go and there's nosupport.
(16:56):
You feel like you're waiting inthe sea where you can't access
anybody because no one's gettingin contact with you, and I
think that's going to be themajor impact with anybody
delivering online is how arethey going to give their
students access to trainers andassessors?
Lauren Hollows (17:13):
Yeah, yeah, I look and, to be honest, you know
part of me looks at him andgoes you know what the online
one's kind of?
You've had this coming for awhile, guys.
So I think that it's you know,it's one of those things you
know.
So I think that it's one ofthose things.
It's just one of those areasthat's 100% been coming.
I can go onto Google now and Ican Google two-week TAE or I can
(17:43):
Google online get your online Xcourse, you know, and I kind of
look at it and I go, oh, thisis not like or the RPL thing
which you know has been hittingon LinkedIn recently as well
Like you know, if you're an, Imean.
What's I mean?
I'm interested to hear from you.
Okay, so what is reasonablesupport for an online RPL?
(18:06):
What is reasonable support foran online RPL you enrol?
You spend $900 to RPL throughwhatever qualification it is
Diploma, whs- what's reasonablesupport in that you know for
that particular course?
Angela Connell-Richards (18:25):
Yeah, I think so as well.
You really need to be lookingat um.
Who once again, who are yourlearner cohort?
So if they're online, what typeof support are they going to
need?
If you're doing an online course, that um involves like a lot of
technical skills, uh, that arerequired for the industry sector
, how are you ensuring that theyknow how to apply those
(18:48):
technical skills when you'redelivering online?
It's as long as a piece ofstring, I think you know you
never know how long it's goingto be, but you really need to
identify the learner cohort andneed to have that within your
training and assessment strategy, and it should be really clear
(19:09):
who is your learner cohort, whatis the training product you're
delivering, how are youdelivering it, and then how are
you going to give reasonableaccess based on that?
I don't know whether we createa calculator to do that.
We're doing some things aroundrisk management and how we're
going to identify risks withinan RTO based on the numbers
(19:34):
student numbers, learner cohortand things like that, and I
think in our last podcast youwere talking about that as well
some sort of risk calculator.
You do that for your trainingand assessment strategies.
Is that correct?
Lauren Hollows (19:44):
Yeah, we do that .
So we do that for validation umpurposes as well.
So, like, we take into accountthe student number, we take into
account if it's a a riskcategory within asqua, we'll
take into account if there'sbeen complaints lodged against
the course and we've got a pointsystem and based on the point
system that classifies it ashigh, low or medium risk and
(20:06):
then based on the risk categorythat then fills features into.
You know how often we validatethe training product, but you
know, like it's probably goingto be a fairly similar
calculation as to whether or notwe provide support services.
And certainly, my advice toRTOs and I'd be interested to
hear your thoughts on this likeI have an RTO that, for example,
(20:30):
offers a qualification.
Like they offer a qualificationto three very different cohorts
.
Right, they offer it to farnorth WA Pilbara students, they
offer it to year 11 well-to-dostudents over a period of a year
and they offer it through a jobseeker course down south.
(20:58):
Now, each of those three cohortsis going to receive a different
level of support and you'reright, we would have three
different tasks for that,because obviously it's different
durations and it's differentcohorts.
So it's a different duration,different cohort, different
tasks, um, and we wouldbasically.
We would basically be saying,right, well, this is the support
(21:19):
that you're going to get aspart of that course.
The thing I'm going to, I thinkthe thing that's going to be
interesting and challenging isgoing to be when you've got
students undertaking the samecourse but through different
models and different durations,where and how you communicate
that to the students, becauseyou can't exactly do it in a
handbook because a handbook istoo generic.
(21:41):
So how you go aboutcommunicating that information
to students and where youcommunicate that to them.
I think that's going to beinteresting because you kind of
my gut instinct would be justknowing students as they are.
You need to be very carefulcommunicating that, because you
might have one group of studentsgoing well, why does that group
of students get that level ofsupport and that group of
(22:01):
students get that?
We've had that before with,like, when we're running
government funded courses andwe're running like an equity
course and we're running aparticipation course with equity
, we were required to providelunches and meals and it got to
a point where we ended upproviding lunches and meals to
all of the students becausetrying to manage and explain to
one group of students why theyget lunch but they don't get
(22:23):
lunch.
Angela Connell-Richards (22:24):
It was just, it was just too hard,
right, but it's those sorts ofthings that like it's going to
be interesting, like that'swhere I see rtos maybe kind of
struggle, like may struggle alittle bit when, oh yeah, yeah,
yeah, and I think it's somethingthat they um, I don't think a
lot of people are aware of thisimpact that's going to be on
(22:47):
their RTO when it comes tosupport services and this
reasonable access to trainersand assessors, and who knows
what that's going to look like,because we're not going to know
until we go to audit what aregoing to be the expectations
from ASQA.
And have you looked at that?
So, since our last podcast,they've actually released the
(23:09):
support services practice guides.
What do you think about those?
Lauren Hollows (23:15):
I mean, look again, I don't think there's
anything in there that's overlysurprising.
I kind of feel like we areseeing points of this at audit
anyway.
One of the things I've noticedin audit is how closely they're
tracking trainers and assessors,and I've had it in several
audits where they've kind ofgone well, hold on a second, the
auditor, the trainer andassessor you're putting forward
(23:37):
for that qualification.
We know that they train here,right, so they're looking at it
and they're going.
Well, you're saying thatthey're going to train with you,
but then they also train here.
So for, like, rto registrations,this is quite like it's quite
interesting to see how muchthey're delving into this space.
They're trapping the hell outof where trainers are going.
So the RTOs can't turn aroundand say you know, oh well, we've
(24:00):
got this trainer and they'regoing to do X, y and Z.
They dead.
They're now kind of going tothat step of, okay, well, show
me the contract, show me thepayslips, like show me that
they're actually doing the hoursthat you say that they're doing
.
So I think again, that's goingto have an impact from that
perspective of like, all right,well, if we're going to say that
we're going to provide accessto trainers during these points
(24:21):
in time.
You know how does that fit in?
You were saying you wereupdating, like the position
descriptions and contracts, andwe've updated our contracts as
well.
If we've got a trainer sittingin a classroom now, they're
there to offer student support,but they're also doing their
admin and marking time rightunder the award.
Anytime you've got a trainerthat's dealing with students,
(24:43):
they've got to have x amount ofadmin time right, which is
really, look, the award sucks.
I'm going to put it out thereand say the award sucks and the
award is stupid and the awardreally does not understand how
training and assessment works inthe vet sector, because it kind
of makes this assumption that,like, trainers and assessors
develop training and assessmentmaterials, which in 99% of the
cases they do not.
They don't develop shit, theyliterally just train and assess.
Angela Connell-Richards (25:09):
And we can't even get them to validate
Exactly, right?
Lauren Hollows (25:13):
I can't even get them to complete their trainer
matrices.
I have to have somebody sit andhold my.
I have a dedicated team memberthat sits and holds their hand
to build their trainer matrixwith them, right?
So like I look at this and Ikind of go, okay, well, you know
what is the trainer andassessor doing.
But you know like all of thosethings are the myriad of stuff
(25:36):
that RTOs then have to navigatewhen they're going through this.
So, really thinking about fromthat perspective and again, like
, use your systems, like in Xero, we track hours for training
differently than we do our adminhours and stuff like that.
But RTOs need to think aboutthis from a business perspective
and just be a little bitcareful in going, oh, when
(26:00):
they're doing their adminmarking, we're going to chuck
them in a classroom and atrainer and anyone can come and
see them.
Just be really careful, guys.
As an RTO, you are an employer.
It works fine if you've got areally good relationship with
your trainers and assessors.
If you've got that trainer andassessor that wants to be a pain
in the ass and is like well, Isaw a student today and he's
like well, I saw a student today.
(26:20):
So all of that time that Ispent that was actually training
time, and now you owe me anadditional four hours of
administration time.
You know like you just need toset your systems up very, very
carefully to deal with thesethings.
Most trainers and assessors arevery reasonable people.
Most RTOs are very reasonablepeople, but it's an area where
there can be trouble.
Angela Connell-Richards (26:40):
It's something where you need to be
open and honest and and have atransparent process of of how we
ensure access to the trainersand assessors, but also know
what are they working on, and Ithink, yes, it may not come in
on the award, but that'ssomething we still can put into
their contract and within theposition description.
(27:03):
What are the requirements fortrainers and assessors?
Um and, in particular, we'renow going to need to add into
that that they will need to um,what, how much time do they need
to allocate to spend just, uh,one-on-one with students?
Um, I think that needs to gointo the contract as well.
Lauren Hollows (27:21):
Yeah, and you were saying as well.
Also, that goes into, like thePD of the trainers that is now
expected in relation to studentsupport, you know, in relation
to trainers being able to managestudent wellbeing.
Who is it in the college that'sgoing to manage student
wellbeing?
Are you going to have a studentwellbeing officer, like in
Christchurch?
A lot of the larger collegeswill have, like a counselor or a
(27:44):
support person like that, youknow operates within the college
to some extent.
I know that my, whenever I ranbig cry cost colleges like we're
talking about hundreds ofstudents we literally had a
counselor, like who had anoffice and worked five days a
week dealing with all the dramasof, you know, the lives of our
students.
Uh, you know.
(28:05):
So that works fine for cryclass, the, the financial model
is potentially there to supportit.
Um, for other rtos, how is thatgoing to work?
How are you going to managestudent well-being?
What does managing studentwell-being look like?
You know what I mean.
What is student?
Angela Connell-Richard (28:19):
learning .
So some of the things that Ihave identified is that you're
going to need to have, like, astudent support officer that has
some mental health trainingthey're going to need to.
It's a bit like childprotection, where they need to
have mental health training tobe able to identify a student at
(28:41):
risk.
But exactly what you just said.
Then the difference is ifyou've only got a one-day course
, how much support services doyou need to provide if you're
only delivering one-unit courses, compared to if you're
delivering over a whole year?
So it's going to be veryinteresting to see what they're
(29:04):
going to need to have in place.
My recommendation is that Ibelieve all trainers and
assessors I already believe thattrainers and assessors should
have a first aid certificate.
I think they also need to havea mental health certificate so
that they're able to identifystudents at risk and then be
able to then refer them to.
(29:25):
It's not actually counsellingthe student.
It's then knowing who to refer.
Who we're going to refer themto when it comes to support
services.
Lauren Hollows (29:34):
Yeah, and I think also there's a couple of
really interesting like.
So I'm actually encouraging alot of our RTOs to look at unit
selections for 2026.
And, where relevant, use yourimports to run things like
support personal wellbeing inthe workplace.
That's a BSB unit, there's anAQF3 and an AQF4 wellbeing unit
(29:57):
within the BSB training packageas well, and so I know that for
quite a few of the courses thatI've got with different RTOs,
we're now incorporating awellbeing unit into the actual
structure of the wholequalification and so by
explicitly, you know teachinghow to manage wellbeing, you
(30:18):
know that's been incorporatedand obviously as part of that we
need to make sure that ourtrainers and assessors are
qualified in knowing how toteach that as well.
But I think like that's for fora lot of rtos that's potentially
one really simple way to lookat, like just a practical way to
incorporate, and also that thengives you the time to actually
(30:40):
talk about a lot of these things, and that's a reasonable
concern, for RTOs is like, well,where are we going to fit all
of this into our schedule Ifyou've got an explicit unit
that's going to actually go andtalk to some of these things and
address it?
One very clear how you'recovering this.
Criteria.
Two makes it super easy withinthe TAS as to where you're going
to cover it.
Three, operationally, you knowthat you're actually kind of you
(31:03):
know, like if you're working ona funding model or you're kind
of being paid to actually thendeliver that as part of your
service.
That's, you know, I think, likea practical way that I see this
.
Angela Connell-Richards (31:15):
Yeah, I love that idea.
I think that's a great idea,interesting.
It would be interesting to seewhether they end up putting that
, a unit like that, into the tae.
Yeah, yeah, that would be agreat idea you guys should
actually think about doing that.
Lauren Hollows (31:35):
You've got more electives now to choose from.
You should think aboutincluding, like, a well-being
support.
Yeah, because our trainers needmental health support as well
they do.
Angela Connell-Richards (31:46):
But also, um, there are often times
where you don't you, you maysuspect that something's wrong
with a student, but you don'tknow what to do or you don't
know what the process is, andand that's something that I've
seen I think this is fantastic,that they've brought this in,
and I think that's where there'sgoing to be, because, you know,
mental health is at an all-timehigh at the moment because of
(32:10):
the pandemic, so a lot of peopleare suffering and they're
suffering internally and they'renot, um, it's not clear who is
affected, and I think trainersbeing able to identify is going
to be.
It's not only going to help thestudents, it's going to help
(32:31):
the trainer and the otherstudents in the room if a
trainer is able to identify.
Lauren Hollows (32:36):
I've been doing, like I've been teaching
de-escalation training, I thinksince 2018.
Now I do that with almost allof my trainers, as we do, like,
whenever a new college collegecomes on board, we'll schedule
in a de-escalation session atsome point throughout the year.
So, like, how to identify whenyou've got students that are
like building to that point oflike I'm gonna look, completely
lose my, you know, my shit, um,you know.
(32:58):
And then then the three keysteps that you've got to do in
order to like de-escalate thatperson back, to bring them to a
point where they're actuallylike listening to you.
Um, and it's probably one of myfavorite things to teach with
trainers.
One because it's very practicaland hands-on.
Um, I really love being able todo it when I can do it in
person because, like I, I willpick a, I'll pick a trainer and
I'll get right in their face andI'll get into like deescalate
(33:20):
and stuff like that.
Um, but also, like, through theprocess of de-escalation, uh,
and teaching that like the bodyyou know, learning how to read
that body language and learninghow to respond to, learning how
to use words in a more effectiveway to like clue into a person
and connect with a person.
Um, the feedback that we alwaysget from those sorts of courses
(33:41):
is always like it's.
It's probably one of my bestfeedback courses, like from
trainers, being able to go holycow like I'm gonna use that,
like I'm I'm gonna, I'm gonna gohome and I'm gonna use that on
my wife or I'm gonna see it onmy, I'm gonna use that on my
teenage kid, you know, like it'sa really practical thing and I
think that doing stuff like thatwith trainers and assessors, um
(34:05):
is really is a really valuableactivity yeah, after I sold my
RTO, I actually studiedpsychotherapy and counseling and
I found it very useful.
Angela Connell-Richards (34:18):
I used to go practice on everyone, but
I found it very useful in justmy own life skills, not just
learning how to be a counsellor,how to help other people, it's
how you are able to react andthat de-escalation is.
Yeah, I love that idea.
That's awesome.
All right, right, I think weneed to wrap up this uh episode.
(34:41):
It's been fantastic.
I uh, I love, I love that weboth have such a passion when it
comes to this vet studentsupport.
I think it's a wonderful changewithin the new standards and,
um, I think, in the way umeducation is now and students
and and what we're going through, particularly with mental
(35:03):
health, this is a fantasticchange that's not only going to
support students but also, as Isaid, trainers and assessors and
everyone within the RTO.
So, yeah, thank you very much,lauren once again for joining me
with the RTO Superhero Podcast.
As per usual, it's alwaysenlightening conversation.
(35:25):
So thank you, thank you so much, angela.
Lauren Hollows (35:29):
Have a great day you too awesome.
Welcome to the RTO Superhero Podcast
and with my special guest,lauren Hollows, who's joining me
for the whole year, this year,where we're going to be breaking
down the standards and what'sinvolved with what the RTOs need
to do in order to prepare forthe new standards.
So Lauren and I just had a chatabout what we've been doing and
(00:27):
the amount of documents thatwe've been working on.
I've already I'm about 30% ofthe way through rewriting all of
our documents which we'vealready identified.
There will be over 200documents that we're going to be
providing, and there's alsoquite a bit around student
support and well-being.
(00:48):
So welcome, lauren, to theSuperhero Podcast.
Thank you so much, angela.
I'm happy to be back.
Awesome.
So let's dive in.
So this episode is onunderstanding vet support
services and really looking atwhat's changed with the new
(01:09):
revised standards.
So the focus is on standard 2.3and 2.4, which is training vet
student support so that's howthey've actually named that
quality area.
So there's a whole quality areaon it.
So I'd love to know know,lauren, where are you at, what
do you think about the changesand what do you think is the
(01:30):
most important changes thatthey've made?
Lauren Hollows (01:32):
um, so I actually really like the
standard.
I think we previously only had1.7, which what didn't really
wasn't.
There wasn't a lot ofinformation in there um, and
obviously, student support.
If you're not adapting to yourstudents, if you're not
providing support for yourstudents, then it's very, very
(01:53):
hard to get them to the end, andcompletion rates are such a
massive thing in our sector.
And I think a lot of thatrelates to, if it doesn't relate
to, contextualizationcontextualization of assessment
tools, it's relating to studentsupport and taking on students,
whereby you haven't reallyexplained what the program is
and how it's going to run andtherefore it's actually not
(02:13):
suitable for the students.
So this aligns the broadstandards much more with, like,
what's already required ingovernment funding contracts,
what's already required by ESOS,what's already required in
government funding contracts,what's already required by ESOS,
and so I think that this youknow that what's within these
standards broadly makes a lot ofsense.
I also think it's going to forthe RPL RTOs, for our online
(02:43):
RTOs, it's going to have afairly major economic and
business operational impact.
Angela Connell-Richards (02:46):
I totally agree.
Lauren Hollows (02:47):
They really look .
For some of them they'reamazing, they're fantastic, they
work really well, but forothers have, just to be
perfectly candid, dropped theball.
You know RTOs where they sayyou've got 12 months to do the
course online.
My son's recently been goingthrough a course in retail and
he wasn't allowed to do thepractical of any unit right
(03:10):
until the end of the course andso he's been working in industry
.
He's been working at a jobpart-time for the last year and
when we've been going throughthe hours, they're like well,
your hours only start at the end.
Once we've completed and youwill be going over the 12 months
, you're going to be charged anadditional fee and I'm going
actually hold on a second.
Guys, let's just look atfairness and flexibility.
(03:32):
He's been working in this placefor all these time like and I'm
happy to go back and explainlike fairness and flexibility
and student support, and you'veactually got to explain these
things and currency and validityright.
so I think that there is a lotof aspects for those particular
rtos that this is going toimpact like.
(03:54):
Ultimately, if you take on theresponsibility of a student, if
you're going to take money froma student, you have a
responsibility to provide themwith some support to get them to
the end of that course, and Ithink that there has been a lot
of issues in this area, and thisis where we have seen some of
the rorting happening in thepast, where we're going in and
(04:16):
we're enrolling students thataren't suitable for the courses.
We're never going to be able toprovide the student support
that they need to get through tothe end of it.
We didn't bother doing a propercheck to make sure what their
disability or what their needswere prior to enrolling them
properly in the course, and so,therefore, we ended up with much
lower completion rates than weshould have.
(04:37):
So I'm hoping that throughputting these standards into
place I think reading some ofthe specifics of the actual, you
know standards, that's whowe're going to be talking like,
that's who the regulator isgoing to be looking at in those
processes.
Angela Connell-Richards (04:55):
Yeah, and I totally agree with all of
those.
One of the really importantparts like I love support
services as well.
I think it definitely shouldn'tbe one clause.
It should be more encompassingwhen it comes to or inclusive, I
suppose, when it comes tolooking after all of our
(05:18):
students.
Thing that I major changes thatI've seen is one is that
language, literacy, numeracy anddigital skills and how are we
assessing that prior to coursecommencement, so that
information that we'redisseminating prior to course
commencement and alsoascertaining whether the student
(05:41):
is this and the course issuitable for that student and do
they have those foundationskills in order to successfully
complete the training.
I think that's what I found isit's more highlighted now within
the revised standards.
And then the other thing is ishow are we checking in on the
(06:03):
students on a regular basisthroughout their training?
So, yes, they may have gotthrough the LLND assessment, but
how are we checking theiracademic progress throughout the
training?
So that's something that I'veseen is a bit different coming
up with ideas of how do we dothat, like the trainers are
(06:25):
going to need to do, likequizzes or things like that, to
identify that on an ongoing.
Then the other part was for meis how are we disseminating
information to the student on aregular basis?
So this has not been somethingthat's been highlighted before
(06:45):
in previous standards.
Where it's with information,it's not just your marketing
materials, it is how are youensuring that the student knows
how to access support servicesand are we notifying students?
Do you need support?
It's not just here's yourstudent handbook and then off
you go support.
(07:07):
It's not just here's yourstudent handbook and then off
you go.
Six months later you have noidea where you, where that
student handbook's gone and youdon't know what.
You don't even know if the RTOoffers support services.
So it's making sure thatstudents are aware of those
policies and procedures how tosubmit a complaint, how to get
academic support and that leadsme in really well into getting
(07:28):
reasonable access to trainersand assessors.
What are your thoughts aroundthat?
Lauren Hollows (07:35):
I mean, this is not like.
I'd love to see somebody argueagainst this and be like why
should they have to havereasonable access to their
trainers and assessors?
Like you know we often like,and assessors like um, yeah, you
know we go, we often I got, Ioften go in and you know me like
I'm a massive, I'm a data girl,like I love to.
I'll get into their studentmanagement system, I'll pull
reports and start pulling dataand stuff like that and I'm like
(07:56):
okay, you know, like withcricost rtos, this is not
generally an issue.
You're generally looking atlike a 1 to 40, 1 to 60 at most.
Um, that's, that's kind of theratio that you're going to be
working with, right.
Um, when we're working with thetraineeship and apprenticeship
rtos, it can vary.
Like you can go from anywhere,from like a 1 to I probably see
(08:21):
maybe even like up to 1 to like200, just depending on whether
or not they're doing like groupsin the workplace or if they're
doing that block model sort oftraining right.
We can get much higher ratiosof trainer to student in those
sorts of scenarios.
But then, like you know,sometimes we'll go into colleges
(08:41):
and we'll look at it andthey'll have like a one to 500
ratio and I'm kind of going okay, you've got a 1 to 500 ratio.
I can almost guarantee, ifyou've got a 1 to 500 ratio,
your completion rate is going tobe below 30%.
You're going to have a massivedrop-off rate of students from
enrollment to commencement.
You know your onboarding processis probably crap, um, and so I
(09:05):
think that this is where, likeyou know, rtos need to be
looking at their data and kindof going okay, well, what's
reasonable, like what'sreasonable for an online rto?
How many students can a trainerreasonably have?
What is the expectation of howmuch time students should be
sending?
And look, you could be doingbusiness training and you could
(09:28):
be doing lectures every weekwith 150 students in a zoom pool
, and then you know, you've got.
You've got, maybe you know,five or six sessions throughout
the week where students can jumpin on tutorials or where they
can jump in on student supportsessions or where they can book
in with you, and yet maybepotentially, that's all working
(09:49):
really well because you've got awhole load of automated
processes that happen in thebackground.
You know accelerates about tolaunch its AI tutor.
Later on this year you may havean LMS that already has that
sort of functionality built intoit, so there are certainly ways
that you can do it, and whenyou're really good at utilizing
(10:09):
your system, when your admin iskicking goals, when you've got a
trainer who's super organized,that's like 0.5% of RTOs, though
.
Like the vast majority of RTOsare God bless their cotton socks
just not that organized.
Rtos are God bless theirconsults just not that organized
(10:30):
.
They are not that wellresourced.
And so I think that you knowthis is going to be a highlight
to that.
I've noticed in state fundingcontracts they're actually now
asking us to put in what is thestudent to staff ratio.
They certainly check that in.
Angela Connell-Richards (10:40):
We're seeing in ASCA audits too.
Yeah yeah.
Lauren Hollows (10:44):
So I think that that's going to be something
that you know does need to befocused on, and I think that,
from a business operationalperspective because you and I
both operate with rtos on likeokay, but yeah, let's like be
realistic about bottom lines andwe, we want every.
There needs to be viability andstuff like that.
So the RTOs that are going todo well through this are the
(11:05):
RTOs that are going to have areally good student management
system, a really good learnermanagement system, and they are
putting in place a lot of thesefeatures.
Right, If I talk to RTOs, I wastalking to one a couple of
weeks ago and they had somethinglike 4,000 or 5,000 students
and I was like you, like thesystem that they were on.
I was like you really can't beon this system.
(11:27):
Like you've got only five usersthat have got access to the
system.
Your trainers don't have accessto the student management
system.
You don't have a proper LMS.
Like you've got the shitty oldMoodle one where students can't
access your policies andprocedures.
We can't enroll them in a newcourse, there's no talking
between the systems, and theywere like but you know so and so
(11:49):
is going to be really expensivefor us.
I'm like do you have any ideahow much this system is going to
save you?
I'm like there's like two adminpeople that are pulling
spreadsheets and reportingspreadsheets to you on a weekly
basis yep like the time, thetime it's going to save, and
that is 120 000.
The system that we're going tobe talking about is not 120 000
(12:11):
a year, but that's what you'regoing to be saving like, so I
think that it does.
Really, it is going to bereally interesting when we talk
about student support servicesand documenting it and being
able to offer, like making surethat the physical people you've
got in the business are going tobe able to give the best value
for money.
You have to have that back-endsupport.
Angela Connell-Richards (12:34):
Well, there's so much good tech out
there now, Like there's all thisgreat technology, a lot of AI
being incorporated now, andinstead of being afraid of it,
people should be embracing itbecause it's going to allow you
to give more customer service toyour students.
Yeah, yeah, I definitely agreewith that.
(12:54):
And the other part, withreasonable access what I've read
into the standards is makingsure that you include in your
calendar, so you have yourcalendar of schedule of all your
training.
When is it that the studentshave one-on-one access to the
trainers and assessors?
(13:14):
And my thought process is thatyou need to include that in your
training calendar and it can beface-to-face or online, no
matter different forums.
And the other one I recommendedwas you know, put a Facebook
group together or use yourlearning management system where
the student, if they're loggingin regularly, you could put a
(13:36):
post in there and get discussionboards going in there.
So I think, when it comes toreasonable access to trainers, I
think, yeah, you should bedoing this.
And students need.
They don't know when they needsupport and they often will not
ask for support unless they'vegot that one-on-one opportunity
(13:59):
where they don't have to beembarrassed about asking a
question in front of all theother students.
So that's my thoughts on that.
Lauren Hollows (14:09):
And I think there's a lot of cultural
aspects that filter into that aswell.
So, understanding that,depending on, like your cohort,
your delivery model, like, ifyou are dealing with job seekers
as a cohort, right, you'reoften dealing with people who've
had really poor experiences inschool and so people wanting to
put themselves out there andrisk, like, what they may see is
(14:31):
, you know, asking a stupidquestion that's going to be, you
know, reasonable support for ajob seeker cohort is going to be
very, very different, and Ithink this is the discussion
I've had with a lot of RTOs.
Like we've got RTOs that are,you know, literally only
offering graduate diplomas forpeople who've already got, you
know, a bachelor's degree right.
We've got short course RTOs whoare only offering one day
(14:53):
courses in the civilconstruction sector.
We've got RTOs who are in thecry cost space.
We've got RTOs who are in thejob seeker space.
This is where that reasonableword comes into play and it's
going to be really important andI know that you've done this in
your policies and I've donethis in my policies is like for
that particular cohort let'sdefine what reasonable is okay
(15:18):
and we're not going to put onestandard against every single
student.
So if you're an RTO and you'regoing, well you know, I had a
friend tell me that they wentthrough an ASCII audit.
They were expected to do this,so I'm going to have to be
expected to do that, but that'sa massive imposter on my
business.
I'm like, well, well, well,Like it's not going to be a one
(15:39):
size fits all approach.
Ascii is going to take the sameapproach as to like what is
reasonable for your cohort.
If you tell me you're takingten thousand dollars from a
student, you're working withthem for a full year.
You're expecting them to be inclass two and a half days a week
.
Reasonable support for thatstudent is different than the
student that pays 99 to come inand do a one day first aid class
(16:00):
.
We're not going to expect thesame thing for a and for b, and
I think that's what stresses outRTOs is like they hear one
thing and then they should be inyour TAS.
Angela Connell-Richards (16:12):
It should be in your training and
assessment strategy.
So what is your supportservices that you need to
provide for that particularlearner cohort and the
qualification that they'reundertaking?
Once again, as you said, twoand a half days a week, one day,
um?
Or are they going to be withyou all year?
Or is it, um?
(16:33):
Is it going to be they come inonce a month, so you've got to
like, or online you were talkingabout earlier.
I think online is going to behave the biggest impact when it
comes to support services,because how many online courses
I know that I've done where it'sjust here's your login details
and off you go and there's nosupport.
(16:56):
You feel like you're waiting inthe sea where you can't access
anybody because no one's gettingin contact with you, and I
think that's going to be themajor impact with anybody
delivering online is how arethey going to give their
students access to trainers andassessors?
Lauren Hollows (17:13):
Yeah, yeah, I look and, to be honest, you know
part of me looks at him andgoes you know what the online
one's kind of?
You've had this coming for awhile, guys.
So I think that it's you know,it's one of those things you
know.
So I think that it's one ofthose things.
It's just one of those areasthat's 100% been coming.
I can go onto Google now and Ican Google two-week TAE or I can
(17:43):
Google online get your online Xcourse, you know, and I kind of
look at it and I go, oh, thisis not like or the RPL thing
which you know has been hittingon LinkedIn recently as well
Like you know, if you're an, Imean.
What's I mean?
I'm interested to hear from you.
Okay, so what is reasonablesupport for an online RPL?
(18:06):
What is reasonable support foran online RPL you enrol?
You spend $900 to RPL throughwhatever qualification it is
Diploma, whs- what's reasonablesupport in that you know for
that particular course?
Angela Connell-Richards (18:25):
Yeah, I think so as well.
You really need to be lookingat um.
Who once again, who are yourlearner cohort?
So if they're online, what typeof support are they going to
need?
If you're doing an online course, that um involves like a lot of
technical skills, uh, that arerequired for the industry sector
, how are you ensuring that theyknow how to apply those
(18:48):
technical skills when you'redelivering online?
It's as long as a piece ofstring, I think you know you
never know how long it's goingto be, but you really need to
identify the learner cohort andneed to have that within your
training and assessment strategy, and it should be really clear
(19:09):
who is your learner cohort, whatis the training product you're
delivering, how are youdelivering it, and then how are
you going to give reasonableaccess based on that?
I don't know whether we createa calculator to do that.
We're doing some things aroundrisk management and how we're
going to identify risks withinan RTO based on the numbers
(19:34):
student numbers, learner cohortand things like that, and I
think in our last podcast youwere talking about that as well
some sort of risk calculator.
You do that for your trainingand assessment strategies.
Is that correct?
Lauren Hollows (19:44):
Yeah, we do that .
So we do that for validation umpurposes as well.
So, like, we take into accountthe student number, we take into
account if it's a a riskcategory within asqua, we'll
take into account if there'sbeen complaints lodged against
the course and we've got a pointsystem and based on the point
system that classifies it ashigh, low or medium risk and
(20:06):
then based on the risk categorythat then fills features into.
You know how often we validatethe training product, but you
know, like it's probably goingto be a fairly similar
calculation as to whether or notwe provide support services.
And certainly, my advice toRTOs and I'd be interested to
hear your thoughts on this likeI have an RTO that, for example,
(20:30):
offers a qualification.
Like they offer a qualificationto three very different cohorts
.
Right, they offer it to farnorth WA Pilbara students, they
offer it to year 11 well-to-dostudents over a period of a year
and they offer it through a jobseeker course down south.
(20:58):
Now, each of those three cohortsis going to receive a different
level of support and you'reright, we would have three
different tasks for that,because obviously it's different
durations and it's differentcohorts.
So it's a different duration,different cohort, different
tasks, um, and we wouldbasically.
We would basically be saying,right, well, this is the support
(21:19):
that you're going to get aspart of that course.
The thing I'm going to, I thinkthe thing that's going to be
interesting and challenging isgoing to be when you've got
students undertaking the samecourse but through different
models and different durations,where and how you communicate
that to the students, becauseyou can't exactly do it in a
handbook because a handbook istoo generic.
(21:41):
So how you go aboutcommunicating that information
to students and where youcommunicate that to them.
I think that's going to beinteresting because you kind of
my gut instinct would be justknowing students as they are.
You need to be very carefulcommunicating that, because you
might have one group of studentsgoing well, why does that group
of students get that level ofsupport and that group of
(22:01):
students get that?
We've had that before with,like, when we're running
government funded courses andwe're running like an equity
course and we're running aparticipation course with equity
, we were required to providelunches and meals and it got to
a point where we ended upproviding lunches and meals to
all of the students becausetrying to manage and explain to
one group of students why theyget lunch but they don't get
(22:23):
lunch.
Angela Connell-Richards (22:24):
It was just, it was just too hard,
right, but it's those sorts ofthings that like it's going to
be interesting, like that'swhere I see rtos maybe kind of
struggle, like may struggle alittle bit when, oh yeah, yeah,
yeah, and I think it's somethingthat they um, I don't think a
lot of people are aware of thisimpact that's going to be on
(22:47):
their RTO when it comes tosupport services and this
reasonable access to trainersand assessors, and who knows
what that's going to look like,because we're not going to know
until we go to audit what aregoing to be the expectations
from ASQA.
And have you looked at that?
So, since our last podcast,they've actually released the
(23:09):
support services practice guides.
What do you think about those?
Lauren Hollows (23:15):
I mean, look again, I don't think there's
anything in there that's overlysurprising.
I kind of feel like we areseeing points of this at audit
anyway.
One of the things I've noticedin audit is how closely they're
tracking trainers and assessors,and I've had it in several
audits where they've kind ofgone well, hold on a second, the
auditor, the trainer andassessor you're putting forward
(23:37):
for that qualification.
We know that they train here,right, so they're looking at it
and they're going.
Well, you're saying thatthey're going to train with you,
but then they also train here.
So for, like, rto registrations,this is quite like it's quite
interesting to see how muchthey're delving into this space.
They're trapping the hell outof where trainers are going.
So the RTOs can't turn aroundand say you know, oh well, we've
(24:00):
got this trainer and they'regoing to do X, y and Z.
They dead.
They're now kind of going tothat step of, okay, well, show
me the contract, show me thepayslips, like show me that
they're actually doing the hoursthat you say that they're doing
.
So I think again, that's goingto have an impact from that
perspective of like, all right,well, if we're going to say that
we're going to provide accessto trainers during these points
(24:21):
in time.
You know how does that fit in?
You were saying you wereupdating, like the position
descriptions and contracts, andwe've updated our contracts as
well.
If we've got a trainer sittingin a classroom now, they're
there to offer student support,but they're also doing their
admin and marking time rightunder the award.
Anytime you've got a trainerthat's dealing with students,
(24:43):
they've got to have x amount ofadmin time right, which is
really, look, the award sucks.
I'm going to put it out thereand say the award sucks and the
award is stupid and the awardreally does not understand how
training and assessment works inthe vet sector, because it kind
of makes this assumption that,like, trainers and assessors
develop training and assessmentmaterials, which in 99% of the
cases they do not.
They don't develop shit, theyliterally just train and assess.
Angela Connell-Richards (25:09):
And we can't even get them to validate
Exactly, right?
Lauren Hollows (25:13):
I can't even get them to complete their trainer
matrices.
I have to have somebody sit andhold my.
I have a dedicated team memberthat sits and holds their hand
to build their trainer matrixwith them, right?
So like I look at this and Ikind of go, okay, well, you know
what is the trainer andassessor doing.
But you know like all of thosethings are the myriad of stuff
(25:36):
that RTOs then have to navigatewhen they're going through this.
So, really thinking about fromthat perspective and again, like
, use your systems, like in Xero, we track hours for training
differently than we do our adminhours and stuff like that.
But RTOs need to think aboutthis from a business perspective
and just be a little bitcareful in going, oh, when
(26:00):
they're doing their adminmarking, we're going to chuck
them in a classroom and atrainer and anyone can come and
see them.
Just be really careful, guys.
As an RTO, you are an employer.
It works fine if you've got areally good relationship with
your trainers and assessors.
If you've got that trainer andassessor that wants to be a pain
in the ass and is like well, Isaw a student today and he's
like well, I saw a student today.
(26:20):
So all of that time that Ispent that was actually training
time, and now you owe me anadditional four hours of
administration time.
You know like you just need toset your systems up very, very
carefully to deal with thesethings.
Most trainers and assessors arevery reasonable people.
Most RTOs are very reasonablepeople, but it's an area where
there can be trouble.
Angela Connell-Richards (26:40):
It's something where you need to be
open and honest and and have atransparent process of of how we
ensure access to the trainersand assessors, but also know
what are they working on, and Ithink, yes, it may not come in
on the award, but that'ssomething we still can put into
their contract and within theposition description.
(27:03):
What are the requirements fortrainers and assessors?
Um and, in particular, we'renow going to need to add into
that that they will need to um,what, how much time do they need
to allocate to spend just, uh,one-on-one with students?
Um, I think that needs to gointo the contract as well.
Lauren Hollows (27:21):
Yeah, and you were saying as well.
Also, that goes into, like thePD of the trainers that is now
expected in relation to studentsupport, you know, in relation
to trainers being able to managestudent wellbeing.
Who is it in the college that'sgoing to manage student
wellbeing?
Are you going to have a studentwellbeing officer, like in
Christchurch?
A lot of the larger collegeswill have, like a counselor or a
(27:44):
support person like that, youknow operates within the college
to some extent.
I know that my, whenever I ranbig cry cost colleges like we're
talking about hundreds ofstudents we literally had a
counselor, like who had anoffice and worked five days a
week dealing with all the dramasof, you know, the lives of our
students.
Uh, you know.
(28:05):
So that works fine for cryclass, the, the financial model
is potentially there to supportit.
Um, for other rtos, how is thatgoing to work?
How are you going to managestudent well-being?
What does managing studentwell-being look like?
You know what I mean.
What is student?
Angela Connell-Richard (28:19):
learning .
So some of the things that Ihave identified is that you're
going to need to have, like, astudent support officer that has
some mental health trainingthey're going to need to.
It's a bit like childprotection, where they need to
have mental health training tobe able to identify a student at
(28:41):
risk.
But exactly what you just said.
Then the difference is ifyou've only got a one-day course
, how much support services doyou need to provide if you're
only delivering one-unit courses, compared to if you're
delivering over a whole year?
So it's going to be veryinteresting to see what they're
(29:04):
going to need to have in place.
My recommendation is that Ibelieve all trainers and
assessors I already believe thattrainers and assessors should
have a first aid certificate.
I think they also need to havea mental health certificate so
that they're able to identifystudents at risk and then be
able to then refer them to.
(29:25):
It's not actually counsellingthe student.
It's then knowing who to refer.
Who we're going to refer themto when it comes to support
services.
Lauren Hollows (29:34):
Yeah, and I think also there's a couple of
really interesting like.
So I'm actually encouraging alot of our RTOs to look at unit
selections for 2026.
And, where relevant, use yourimports to run things like
support personal wellbeing inthe workplace.
That's a BSB unit, there's anAQF3 and an AQF4 wellbeing unit
(29:57):
within the BSB training packageas well, and so I know that for
quite a few of the courses thatI've got with different RTOs,
we're now incorporating awellbeing unit into the actual
structure of the wholequalification and so by
explicitly, you know teachinghow to manage wellbeing, you
(30:18):
know that's been incorporatedand obviously as part of that we
need to make sure that ourtrainers and assessors are
qualified in knowing how toteach that as well.
But I think like that's for fora lot of rtos that's potentially
one really simple way to lookat, like just a practical way to
incorporate, and also that thengives you the time to actually
(30:40):
talk about a lot of these things, and that's a reasonable
concern, for RTOs is like, well,where are we going to fit all
of this into our schedule Ifyou've got an explicit unit
that's going to actually go andtalk to some of these things and
address it?
One very clear how you'recovering this.
Criteria.
Two makes it super easy withinthe TAS as to where you're going
to cover it.
Three, operationally, you knowthat you're actually kind of you
(31:03):
know, like if you're working ona funding model or you're kind
of being paid to actually thendeliver that as part of your
service.
That's, you know, I think, likea practical way that I see this
.
Angela Connell-Richards (31:15):
Yeah, I love that idea.
I think that's a great idea,interesting.
It would be interesting to seewhether they end up putting that
, a unit like that, into the tae.
Yeah, yeah, that would be agreat idea you guys should
actually think about doing that.
Lauren Hollows (31:35):
You've got more electives now to choose from.
You should think aboutincluding, like, a well-being
support.
Yeah, because our trainers needmental health support as well
they do.
Angela Connell-Richards (31:46):
But also, um, there are often times
where you don't you, you maysuspect that something's wrong
with a student, but you don'tknow what to do or you don't
know what the process is, andand that's something that I've
seen I think this is fantastic,that they've brought this in,
and I think that's where there'sgoing to be, because, you know,
mental health is at an all-timehigh at the moment because of
(32:10):
the pandemic, so a lot of peopleare suffering and they're
suffering internally and they'renot, um, it's not clear who is
affected, and I think trainersbeing able to identify is going
to be.
It's not only going to help thestudents, it's going to help
(32:31):
the trainer and the otherstudents in the room if a
trainer is able to identify.
Lauren Hollows (32:36):
I've been doing, like I've been teaching
de-escalation training, I thinksince 2018.
Now I do that with almost allof my trainers, as we do, like,
whenever a new college collegecomes on board, we'll schedule
in a de-escalation session atsome point throughout the year.
So, like, how to identify whenyou've got students that are
like building to that point oflike I'm gonna look, completely
lose my, you know, my shit, um,you know.
(32:58):
And then then the three keysteps that you've got to do in
order to like de-escalate thatperson back, to bring them to a
point where they're actuallylike listening to you.
Um, and it's probably one of myfavorite things to teach with
trainers.
One because it's very practicaland hands-on.
Um, I really love being able todo it when I can do it in
person because, like I, I willpick a, I'll pick a trainer and
I'll get right in their face andI'll get into like deescalate
(33:20):
and stuff like that.
Um, but also, like, through theprocess of de-escalation, uh,
and teaching that like the bodyyou know, learning how to read
that body language and learninghow to respond to, learning how
to use words in a more effectiveway to like clue into a person
and connect with a person.
Um, the feedback that we alwaysget from those sorts of courses
(33:41):
is always like it's.
It's probably one of my bestfeedback courses, like from
trainers, being able to go holycow like I'm gonna use that,
like I'm I'm gonna, I'm gonna gohome and I'm gonna use that on
my wife or I'm gonna see it onmy, I'm gonna use that on my
teenage kid, you know, like it'sa really practical thing and I
think that doing stuff like thatwith trainers and assessors, um
(34:05):
is really is a really valuableactivity yeah, after I sold my
RTO, I actually studiedpsychotherapy and counseling and
I found it very useful.
Angela Connell-Richards (34:18):
I used to go practice on everyone, but
I found it very useful in justmy own life skills, not just
learning how to be a counsellor,how to help other people, it's
how you are able to react andthat de-escalation is.
Yeah, I love that idea.
That's awesome.
All right, right, I think weneed to wrap up this uh episode.
(34:41):
It's been fantastic.
I uh, I love, I love that weboth have such a passion when it
comes to this vet studentsupport.
I think it's a wonderful changewithin the new standards and,
um, I think, in the way umeducation is now and students
and and what we're going through, particularly with mental
(35:03):
health, this is a fantasticchange that's not only going to
support students but also, as Isaid, trainers and assessors and
everyone within the RTO.
So, yeah, thank you very much,lauren once again for joining me
with the RTO Superhero Podcast.
As per usual, it's alwaysenlightening conversation.
(35:25):
So thank you, thank you so much, angela.
Lauren Hollows (35:29):
Have a great day you too awesome.
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Therapy Gecko
An unlicensed lizard psychologist travels the universe talking to strangers about absolutely nothing. TO CALL THE GECKO: follow me on https://www.twitch.tv/lyleforever to get a notification for when I am taking calls. I am usually live Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays but lately a lot of other times too. I am a gecko.