September 2, 2024 • 17 mins
Episode Summary: Contractor Liability and Job Site Safety
In this episode, Joe and Jen dive into the complexities of contractor liability and job site safety, focusing on the responsibilities and legal implications for both contractors and host employers. The discussion highlights the often misunderstood aspects of liability beyond just having insurance, emphasizing the importance of clear roles and responsibilities when things go wrong on a job site.
Key Points:
- Understanding Contractor Liability Beyond Insurance:
- The episode starts by clarifying that liability isn't just about having insurance but understanding who is responsible when things go wrong on the job site.
- The importance of assigning liability for day-to-day operations is emphasized, particularly when using shared equipment or facilities.
- Specific Examples of Liability Scenarios:
- Equipment and Safety Gear: Joe and Jen discuss scenarios like using another contractor’s equipment or safety gear, stressing that liability often stays with the owner of the equipment.
- Confined Spaces and Rescue Operations: They debate who should handle confined space permits and rescue operations, with considerations given to cost, competence, and legal implications.
- Challenges with Contractor Management Programs:
- Contractor management programs often rely on data entry rather than safety experts, leading to potential gaps in safety practices and increased liability for host employers.
- These programs can give a false sense of security, as the actual safety measures may not align with what's documented.
- Importance of Clear Communication and Planning:
- The hosts stress the need for thorough planning before the project begins, including who provides what equipment, safety training, and permits.
- They advocate for risk assessments and clear agreements to ensure everyone understands their responsibilities.
- Practical Tips for Managing Liability:
- Lockout/Tagout and Confined Space Procedures: They highlight the importance of having documented and validated procedures to minimize liability.
- Project Phase Assessments: Breaking down projects into phases and conducting risk assessments for each phase can help manage and reduce liability.
- Host Employer's Continuous Responsibility:
- Even when a contractor is hired, the host employer cannot completely remove their liability. They must ensure the contractor is competent and that safety measures are followed.
- Real-World Examples and Personal Experiences:
- Joe and Jen share stories from their own experiences, illustrating how misunderstandings about liability have led to project delays and increased costs.
SEO Keywords:
- Contractor Liability
- Job Site Safety
- Confined Space Safety
- Equipment Liability
- Contractor Management Programs
- Risk Assessment
- Lockout/Tagout Procedures
- Host Employer Responsibilities
- Safety Training
- Project Safety Management
This episode offers a comprehensive look at contractor liability, providing listeners with practical advice on how to manage and reduce risks on job sites. Whether you're a contractor or a host employer, understanding these key points can help ensure that your projects run smoothly and safely
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
The contractor.
Liability top Job site safetyissues.
Okay, got it.
Not liability like insurance,because no one knows how to get
insurance.
You call somebody to getinsurance.
What we're talking about iswho's liable for what during the
day.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Yeah, if it goes bad, Whose problem is it really?
Speaker 1 (00:18):
That's what we're talking about today.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
Okay, got it All right, here we go.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
Welcome everybody.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
Joe Jen contract liability, a lot of projects,
that's the thing that no oneunderstands very well is the
liability side.
Use the liability side, butbasically it's everyone says we
got insurance, we're fine.
It's financial responsibilitywhen things go left right.
That's what we're reallytalking about.
Speaker 1 (00:45):
So give me an example .
We're going to be doing aproject.
We need a meter.
Okay, I want to use your meterbecause I don't want to be
liable.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
I beg your pardon.
I said I beg your pardon.
Speaker 1 (00:58):
I want to use your meter and your Cal gas, so if it
goes bad, it's your problem,not mine.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
Yes, I guess.
So if it goes bad, it's yourproblem, not mine.
Yes, no, thank you Okay.
Speaker 1 (01:07):
Why don't you let me use your harness then?
Speaker 2 (01:09):
No, the same reason why we cut them up instead of
sending them home to use withtheir stands.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
Okay, what about hot water?
Can I use all your fire watches?
Speaker 2 (01:19):
I would prefer you not, although, honestly, if it's
my building, I kind of mightwant to do that.
Speaker 1 (01:25):
okay, I would maybe rather do that okay, we're gonna
give solutions in a few yes,anyway.
So, uh, what about confinedspace permit?
Am I supplying all the confinedspace stuff?
Are you doing it?
Are you the contractor?
Speaker 2 (01:36):
I'm the contractor.
I don't want to supply it yeah,I think you're incompetent, so
I'm gonna make you use my permit.
Speaker 1 (01:44):
Okay, what about rescue?
Speaker 2 (01:51):
You supplying?
Speaker 1 (01:52):
the rescue or me Depends on the bill.
It may be cheaper for me to doit than healthier people know
what's going on.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
I get a rescue team set out there for 50 grand all
day long, literally Not kidding.
Speaker 1 (01:58):
That's the real price , folks.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
We had somebody get a bid for that the other day.
Speaker 1 (02:02):
What's the?
Speaker 2 (02:02):
issue then yeah, the other piece is that are my
people in this space, no, justme, just my people.
I don't want you to know,because I can have my employees
working in the same area andproviding rescue, as long as
they've been correctly trainedright.
I think I'd rather do that thanadd on an extra 50 grand to the
bill.
Speaker 1 (02:23):
Personally.
What about training?
Can you all train some of us onsome stuff we've got to do here
today?
Speaker 2 (02:31):
No, but you're welcome to attend the training
that I'm hosting with a thirdparty that's doing the training
and they can certify you, butI'm not certifying you for
anything, I'd rather you trainmy people in PIT and elevated
working hard.
Speaker 1 (02:40):
Why not?
Speaker 2 (02:42):
No, I'm paying you to be an expert.
Be an expert or I'm gonna findsomebody else who is an expert
I'm trying.
Speaker 1 (02:48):
I'm trying not to be liable, so here's what I'm
trying to do.
I want to get.
Speaker 2 (02:51):
You're also probably gonna say, hey, I'm just gonna
be the general and subeverything out and make somebody
else do it.
That's correct.
Speaker 1 (02:59):
So what so?
What my goal is, my goal as acontractor is a hundred percent
provide nothing provide nothing,get paid a lot, not be liable
yeah that's my goal and providethe least amount of training
that I'm paying for myself.
Speaker 2 (03:11):
See if I can get it from some other venue facility.
Speaker 1 (03:15):
So will I get an a in some of these computer systems?
You bet I want to get an abecause my company got me in to
tell you that we're really goodto go.
But I didn't train a lot ofpeople because I didn't ask that
question.
Speaker 2 (03:27):
It just says we have a training program to say how I
got it so what he's referring tois there's contractor
management programs and systemsthat are online.
They basically charge a bill toa contractor to say, hey, if
you want to work with client a,you've got to be in our program
and you also have to pay thisbill for it too.
Speaker 1 (03:43):
That's correct.
Speaker 2 (03:44):
And now you also have to load all your safety stuff
and insurance stuff into this.
Speaker 1 (03:49):
The theory is.
The theory is if I load allthat, you should be good to go.
Speaker 2 (03:53):
It'll give you.
Speaker 1 (03:54):
And I take most of the liability.
It'll give you a letter.
Grade A, b, c, d.
Speaker 2 (03:57):
The problem with that is is, first of all, those
requirements can change and ebband flow, so as the person who's
the host employer asking yourcontractors to do this, you do
have to have someone who'sknowledgeable, that knows what
to ask for and what should beincluded in those programs.
The second piece of that is isthat, generally speaking, from
(04:18):
what I have found working withthose companies, it's not a
safety person or safety trainedperson the way you and I would
think of like oh, you're asafety manager, you understand
code.
That's not who's reviewing theprograms on the other side for
that program or for that companythat you load the stuff into
and then my it's a data entrytype person it's not a safety
(04:41):
manager.
Speaker 1 (04:41):
My people that load it may be working in the front
office.
Never go to the site thathappens a lot right.
Speaker 2 (04:46):
So what happens is is that they're not really sure
because I am gen hr but I'm alsoworking as safety and I need to
get my employees onto this site.
So, hey, I am now going to bethe person who's creating the
safety program.
But I've never really been tothe project sites or the field,
so I'm not really sure what theydo.
(05:07):
So I pull a generic program offthe internet, kind of put our
name in there and kind of hopefor the best.
Now I'll submit that they'llprobably kick it back and say
you need to address these threethings.
Speaker 1 (05:17):
And so.
Speaker 2 (05:18):
I will put in a paragraph that addresses that in
somehow some way, but I don'treally know if that's what we do
or not.
Speaker 1 (05:24):
And that's not what I'm going to do, because I've
got stuff I got to do.
That day when I'm thecontractor I mean it's great
that she put all that stuff inthere and it made our company
qualified, but I got the stuff Igot to do.
Speaker 2 (05:33):
Well, you may not even be aware of what I wrote.
You may not even know what Iwrote.
Speaker 1 (05:45):
So that's one.
The host hires somebody andthey think they're moving the
liability, and in reality whathappens is that the liability
actually goes not back to thecontractor, which they thought
was going to happen, it goesback to the host.
Speaker 2 (05:51):
Yeah.
So I think that's theoverarching thing that we have
to keep in mind is, anytimewe're a host employer and we
choose to bring a contractoronto our site, while they may
have the one that they may bethe one that has the event occur
and there will be somerepercussions financially and
legally and from a regulatorystandpoint to them.
(06:11):
The host can't wash their handsof that.
They are still going to beimplicated and have fines as
well.
I mean they're still going toget citations and have some
financial impact because theydidn't make sure things were
good.
They can't remove thatresponsibility.
Speaker 1 (06:25):
All right.
The next one is ladders.
On the contrary, can I borrowyour ladder?
Yeah, I only need it real quick.
Speaker 2 (06:31):
Yeah, just real fast, yep.
Speaker 1 (06:33):
Can I borrow it like all day?
Speaker 2 (06:34):
I would prefer you not, because somehow it's going
to come back to me, probablydamaged.
You're probably going to breakit.
Well, I can stint on my name onas a company.
Yeah, you could, yeah, say it'smine.
Yeah, because most of the time,as the host employer, we don't
walk around and run aroundstenciling our company logo on
all of our stuff.
Speaker 1 (06:54):
But I will.
Speaker 2 (06:57):
If we have all of the same things, that is a thing.
Speaker 1 (07:00):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (07:01):
That sometimes we end up losing stuff and we'll say
it's by accident.
Things just get gathered up andwe don't know.
But, right, wrong orindifferent, we end up losing
stuff.
I need a forklift.
Speaker 1 (07:12):
Can you get me a forklift?
Speaker 2 (07:14):
No, because first off , I may be renting it, so I may
not be able to, based on mycontract.
Let somebody else that's notworking for me use it, but I
need one for the job.
Speaker 1 (07:22):
Your bill's going.
Speaker 2 (07:25):
What.
Speaker 1 (07:26):
If I don't get a forklift, there's two more days
I was like what Because?
Your bill's going to go up fortwo more days because I can't
get one today.
Speaker 2 (07:33):
Then I'm going to have to have my people do
whatever that portion of the jobis, because you haven't been
trained on that lift.
Okay, so you have to havetraining on the PIT aerial lift
genie boom, I need an aeriallift too.
And don't even come in herewith some kind of forklift
(07:54):
basket.
We're not doing that either.
I need an aerial lift because Igot to get up there and do that
.
Then you'll need to rent one.
Speaker 1 (07:55):
Okay, you'll need to procure one for yourself and
then show me training for it.
All right, so basically allthese things is my job as a
contractor to divert thatliability.
Speaker 2 (08:01):
Absolutely.
And so on the front end, as thehost employer, what you want to
do is figure out what that listof materials and PPE and
equipment is going to be on thefront end.
So they need to go in confinedspaces.
Are they going to bring theirown tripod and davit system and
winch and all of that stuff?
Are they bringing their ownfall harnesses?
Are they bringing their ownmeters?
Are they bringing their own hotwork stuff?
(08:21):
Whose permits are we usinganytime we have to do any of
this stuff?
You know, if they're going tobe working within a leading edge
, how are they going to manageit?
Because theoretically, theyshould have a process for that.
And so let's try to work allthat stuff out on the front end,
because then we can get out ofwhen they roll up and they don't
have any of that and they havethis meter.
It's not currently calibrated,we don't have.
Then we're out of that firsthour craziness of the program
(08:45):
that we talked about a couple,yeah, a couple episodes back,
which, well, I'll link it uphere.
Speaker 1 (08:50):
So you can now I will tell you I've had some great
contractor crews who wereflawless and trying to hard out
to make sure this stuff wasright.
Yes, but yes.
But what happens?
Speaker 2 (08:59):
over all the years we've been doing this, these are
things that came about thatshut everything down there are,
and now we're trying to runaround for what we can do
legally yeah, and and we are allin crunch time because we only
have a certain amount of timeallotted that we pulled
everything offline to be able todo this project.
So, whether that's because wecan't hold temp and weather
related, or it's because theplant has to start up at a
(09:20):
certain time, or we've gotorders we have to fill, or
something's coming and we've gotto do whatever.
Speaker 1 (09:24):
But yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (09:30):
Part of our job.
It's always a time crunch andwhen we have this weird go on
with the contractor and we'retrying to play who's liable?
Who's signing the hot workpermit?
Who's going to be liable if weburn stuff down?
Who's going to be liable on theconfined space side if we have
an entrant and things go bad?
That's eating up that time, butit's an important conversation,
so we just need to pull thatconversation out of project day
and move it to earlier in theweek.
Speaker 1 (09:51):
And so, for those of you who don't know us, we do not
manage projects as safety.
We manage complex problems thatare timeline-based, that have
to be done right now and helpeveryone get through it from the
safety side.
So what he means by that is…it's a different view of dealing
with it.
Speaker 2 (10:07):
Yeah, so we're not going to roll up and be on site
during a project for 30 straightdays every day.
We deal with when it's the mostchaotic and most catastrophic,
which is typically at thebeginning and maybe some stuff
in the middle and then at theend.
So we're not there camped out.
We're only there on thecritical days where we know it
could go bad and we're reallykind of nervous.
Speaker 1 (10:25):
Talked about usually happens, the first few hours of
a five-day project.
Yep, because we've got tofigure it out, yep.
Speaker 2 (10:30):
So whatever that is.
So that's kind of our skill set.
That's where some of this iscoming from.
Again, this is our opinion.
Take it how you want Do athorough risk assessment of
what's going on with yourparticular project and your
particular vendors andcontractors.
Validate that insurance to makesure it's really what you need,
because that's another onethat's really important when we
talk about liabilities makingsure we have current insurance,
the right insurance, what theycan actually do and the right
(10:53):
work comp for the right stateyeah for the right state what
they can actually do with thatinsurance.
Speaker 1 (10:57):
So some insurance has to be changed based on what
projects they're going to takeon Because our insurance premium
is very high compared to somepeople that are maybe our
competitors, but it's because wedo things live.
Yes, it is I mean so as acontractor, insurance requires
and then vice versa.
We had one years ago where theinsurance was way too much.
(11:18):
They needed because they wereat a mill, but they were only
pouring concrete, so they didn'tneed it.
Speaker 2 (11:22):
Yeah, they didn't need stuff, for, you know,
firing a torch in an explosivespace, potentially yeah, so work
with what they really need.
Speaker 1 (11:31):
so get on the front end, manage it.
And then the last thing is yoursite inspection forms and
training.
We talked about that'simportant work with your crews
the few days before, work withthem that day, but make sure
you're you're getting your, youknow, your, basically your scope
in your mind of what are wereally doing and do we have you
know, if, if, if, if you, youhave a ladder, I have a ladder
then maybe the deal is Idiscount my bill because you're
(11:53):
going to let me borrow a ladderor I'm renting the equipment.
You may have rented it for meand I'm doing the bill of laden
for the equipment, so you mayhave got it because it's cheaper
, but I'm actually going to payfor it, so I take the liability.
There's ways you can move inand out of those systems.
Speaker 2 (12:19):
And I think once we figure that out, then we can
start breaking the project downinto phases Correct, and we can
start doing risk assessments forphase one and breaking down.
Okay, there's four weeks inphase one, each week, what are
we looking at?
And we can start backing thatup.
And so it's not such an well.
We could never do a riskassessment for a project.
This is going to be a threemonth long project, no problem.
Then break it up into phases,break each phase up into weeks
(12:43):
and then you start managing eachday of week one, each day of
week two If you do a line breakor you do anything that needs a
certified inspector.
Speaker 1 (12:51):
Boiler line breaks piping inside of a unit and that
inspector goes in there.
It may be the contractor'sdoing a part, then the
inspector's part, then thelocation validates that it's
okay for ops and thenmaintenance says yes, we're good
to go, and then they put itonline.
So there may be five or sixentities involved with that
process and it may go back tolike we had the other day.
(13:11):
The inspector said there's agap, contractor goes back and
has to do it again.
So you work on where thosecutoffs and who's got to
validate food safety.
A lot of times we have tovalidate in our locations if
something's good or not for aweld.
Speaker 2 (13:22):
Yeah, or maybe a maintenance person to say yes,
good, but to work on where thosecutoffs are and you go through,
and I think my last big one isprobably going to be lockout yes
, lockout, and confined spaceassessments.
So, when you are workingthrough how to start mitigating
and reducing your liability as ahost employer or even as a
contractor, if you're notconfident and you're not sure
(13:43):
and you're not really feeling ahundred percent, like if someone
subpoenaed this I know this iscorrect.
And I feel like there's noquestion.
I know that this assessment orthis lockout's right, we need to
work on that.
That's something that I wouldencourage you to really take a
look at, because we want to makesure that everything we do is a
process and not a person.
So if Joe comes in ascontractor A and says, you know
what, I need a lockout procedure, I don't, as the host employer,
(14:06):
want to verbally tell himanything.
I want to hand him a sheet ofpaper that's been validated and
reviewed and checked by theexpert at my location for that
piece of equipment and hand itto him, and that is the process
that we do.
Speaker 1 (14:18):
You can choose to follow it or not, but that's how
we do it and that's why we talkabout financial assessment in
the other episodes or in theseepisodes.
That it's not about if you gointo space.
It's about if a contractor doesthat's right and removing the
liability and removing theliability from the host, and so
you know we're giving it over tothe contractor.
Speaker 2 (14:36):
We have an evaluated space.
Yep, We've identified thehazards.
Speaker 1 (14:41):
Because there's no way I'm going to know how to do
everything for lockout or find aspace or location.
Yeah, so I've completed it.
Speaker 2 (14:45):
Right.
Speaker 1 (14:52):
Yeah, it yeah.
He may not know which bucket inthe MCC room.
Speaker 2 (14:53):
It's been three weeks I've been here.
I don't know if you changed it.
Yeah, so we want to again makesure that we've got processes
and systems, We've got forms andinspections and evaluations and
risk assessments, and we wantto make sure that we have all of
that well ahead of time andthat way that allows us that if
we do find we have a gap, we'vegot time to address it before
it's project day hour one.
Speaker 1 (15:12):
Absolutely All right.
We appreciate you listeningtoday.
Speaker 2 (15:15):
All right.
So if you've got more questionsagain, allensafetycoachingcom,
you can reach out there If youwant some support on some
projects.
Allen-safetycom, we do projectsafety stuff, like we said, but
we don't hang out all during allthe during the entire project
days it's the critical days only.
So that's that's kind of how weview that and how we work
through that.
Otherwise we do training.
You can check out Allen dashsafetycom to see the different
(15:38):
in-person services, assessments,procedures, all that good stuff
that we can provide you Ifyou've got safety questions.
Otherwise, you can catch upwith us on any of the socials
joe allen and jen allen onlinkedin.
Allen safety llc is our handleon tiktok, facebook, instagram,
all the things.
So if you wanted to see whatwe've been up to, where we're
traveling and what we're doingin those different states, we
(15:58):
post different fun videos aboutthat too, so you can kind of see
what we're doing and wherewe're at.
I'm going to four or fivedifferent ones this week.
30 hours of driving just thisweek alone.
So so, uh, lots to see, lots tocover, lots of ground to cover.
So, all right, if you've gotepisodes you want to request,
direct message us.
We'll try and fit those in andotherwise, have a great week,
everybody, take care.
(16:18):
Thank you for listening to safe,efficient, profitable a worker
safety podcast.
If you're looking for morein-depth discussions or
step-by-step solutions on all ofthe different safety and
regulatory topics, please visitus at wwwallensafetycoachingcom
for web-based virtual coachingand training, or at
wwwallen-safetycom to book ourteam for onsite services,
(16:42):
training sessions, to ordermerchandise, to learn more about
our team and what services weprovide in the field, or just
simply to request a topic for usto cover on our next podcast.
If you found today's podcasthelpful and would like to
support our podcast further,please help us by subscribing,
liking and sharing this podcastwith anyone that could benefit
from the information we coverhere, as that helps us to
continue to put out this freecontent.
(17:03):
Thank you so much for yoursupport.
Thank you.
The contractor.
Liability top Job site safetyissues.
Okay, got it.
Not liability like insurance,because no one knows how to get
insurance.
You call somebody to getinsurance.
What we're talking about iswho's liable for what during the
day.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Yeah, if it goes bad, Whose problem is it really?
Speaker 1 (00:18):
That's what we're talking about today.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
Okay, got it All right, here we go.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
Welcome everybody.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
Joe Jen contract liability, a lot of projects,
that's the thing that no oneunderstands very well is the
liability side.
Use the liability side, butbasically it's everyone says we
got insurance, we're fine.
It's financial responsibilitywhen things go left right.
That's what we're reallytalking about.
Speaker 1 (00:45):
So give me an example .
We're going to be doing aproject.
We need a meter.
Okay, I want to use your meterbecause I don't want to be
liable.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
I beg your pardon.
I said I beg your pardon.
Speaker 1 (00:58):
I want to use your meter and your Cal gas, so if it
goes bad, it's your problem,not mine.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
Yes, I guess.
So if it goes bad, it's yourproblem, not mine.
Yes, no, thank you Okay.
Speaker 1 (01:07):
Why don't you let me use your harness then?
Speaker 2 (01:09):
No, the same reason why we cut them up instead of
sending them home to use withtheir stands.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
Okay, what about hot water?
Can I use all your fire watches?
Speaker 2 (01:19):
I would prefer you not, although, honestly, if it's
my building, I kind of mightwant to do that.
Speaker 1 (01:25):
okay, I would maybe rather do that okay, we're gonna
give solutions in a few yes,anyway.
So, uh, what about confinedspace permit?
Am I supplying all the confinedspace stuff?
Are you doing it?
Are you the contractor?
Speaker 2 (01:36):
I'm the contractor.
I don't want to supply it yeah,I think you're incompetent, so
I'm gonna make you use my permit.
Speaker 1 (01:44):
Okay, what about rescue?
Speaker 2 (01:51):
You supplying?
Speaker 1 (01:52):
the rescue or me Depends on the bill.
It may be cheaper for me to doit than healthier people know
what's going on.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
I get a rescue team set out there for 50 grand all
day long, literally Not kidding.
Speaker 1 (01:58):
That's the real price , folks.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
We had somebody get a bid for that the other day.
Speaker 1 (02:02):
What's the?
Speaker 2 (02:02):
issue then yeah, the other piece is that are my
people in this space, no, justme, just my people.
I don't want you to know,because I can have my employees
working in the same area andproviding rescue, as long as
they've been correctly trainedright.
I think I'd rather do that thanadd on an extra 50 grand to the
bill.
Speaker 1 (02:23):
Personally.
What about training?
Can you all train some of us onsome stuff we've got to do here
today?
Speaker 2 (02:31):
No, but you're welcome to attend the training
that I'm hosting with a thirdparty that's doing the training
and they can certify you, butI'm not certifying you for
anything, I'd rather you trainmy people in PIT and elevated
working hard.
Speaker 1 (02:40):
Why not?
Speaker 2 (02:42):
No, I'm paying you to be an expert.
Be an expert or I'm gonna findsomebody else who is an expert
I'm trying.
Speaker 1 (02:48):
I'm trying not to be liable, so here's what I'm
trying to do.
I want to get.
Speaker 2 (02:51):
You're also probably gonna say, hey, I'm just gonna
be the general and subeverything out and make somebody
else do it.
That's correct.
Speaker 1 (02:59):
So what so?
What my goal is, my goal as acontractor is a hundred percent
provide nothing provide nothing,get paid a lot, not be liable
yeah that's my goal and providethe least amount of training
that I'm paying for myself.
Speaker 2 (03:11):
See if I can get it from some other venue facility.
Speaker 1 (03:15):
So will I get an a in some of these computer systems?
You bet I want to get an abecause my company got me in to
tell you that we're really goodto go.
But I didn't train a lot ofpeople because I didn't ask that
question.
Speaker 2 (03:27):
It just says we have a training program to say how I
got it so what he's referring tois there's contractor
management programs and systemsthat are online.
They basically charge a bill toa contractor to say, hey, if
you want to work with client a,you've got to be in our program
and you also have to pay thisbill for it too.
Speaker 1 (03:43):
That's correct.
Speaker 2 (03:44):
And now you also have to load all your safety stuff
and insurance stuff into this.
Speaker 1 (03:49):
The theory is.
The theory is if I load allthat, you should be good to go.
Speaker 2 (03:53):
It'll give you.
Speaker 1 (03:54):
And I take most of the liability.
It'll give you a letter.
Grade A, b, c, d.
Speaker 2 (03:57):
The problem with that is is, first of all, those
requirements can change and ebband flow, so as the person who's
the host employer asking yourcontractors to do this, you do
have to have someone who'sknowledgeable, that knows what
to ask for and what should beincluded in those programs.
The second piece of that is isthat, generally speaking, from
(04:18):
what I have found working withthose companies, it's not a
safety person or safety trainedperson the way you and I would
think of like oh, you're asafety manager, you understand
code.
That's not who's reviewing theprograms on the other side for
that program or for that companythat you load the stuff into
and then my it's a data entrytype person it's not a safety
(04:41):
manager.
Speaker 1 (04:41):
My people that load it may be working in the front
office.
Never go to the site thathappens a lot right.
Speaker 2 (04:46):
So what happens is is that they're not really sure
because I am gen hr but I'm alsoworking as safety and I need to
get my employees onto this site.
So, hey, I am now going to bethe person who's creating the
safety program.
But I've never really been tothe project sites or the field,
so I'm not really sure what theydo.
(05:07):
So I pull a generic program offthe internet, kind of put our
name in there and kind of hopefor the best.
Now I'll submit that they'llprobably kick it back and say
you need to address these threethings.
Speaker 1 (05:17):
And so.
Speaker 2 (05:18):
I will put in a paragraph that addresses that in
somehow some way, but I don'treally know if that's what we do
or not.
Speaker 1 (05:24):
And that's not what I'm going to do, because I've
got stuff I got to do.
That day when I'm thecontractor I mean it's great
that she put all that stuff inthere and it made our company
qualified, but I got the stuff Igot to do.
Speaker 2 (05:33):
Well, you may not even be aware of what I wrote.
You may not even know what Iwrote.
Speaker 1 (05:45):
So that's one.
The host hires somebody andthey think they're moving the
liability, and in reality whathappens is that the liability
actually goes not back to thecontractor, which they thought
was going to happen, it goesback to the host.
Speaker 2 (05:51):
Yeah.
So I think that's theoverarching thing that we have
to keep in mind is, anytimewe're a host employer and we
choose to bring a contractoronto our site, while they may
have the one that they may bethe one that has the event occur
and there will be somerepercussions financially and
legally and from a regulatorystandpoint to them.
(06:11):
The host can't wash their handsof that.
They are still going to beimplicated and have fines as
well.
I mean they're still going toget citations and have some
financial impact because theydidn't make sure things were
good.
They can't remove thatresponsibility.
Speaker 1 (06:25):
All right.
The next one is ladders.
On the contrary, can I borrowyour ladder?
Yeah, I only need it real quick.
Speaker 2 (06:31):
Yeah, just real fast, yep.
Speaker 1 (06:33):
Can I borrow it like all day?
Speaker 2 (06:34):
I would prefer you not, because somehow it's going
to come back to me, probablydamaged.
You're probably going to breakit.
Well, I can stint on my name onas a company.
Yeah, you could, yeah, say it'smine.
Yeah, because most of the time,as the host employer, we don't
walk around and run aroundstenciling our company logo on
all of our stuff.
Speaker 1 (06:54):
But I will.
Speaker 2 (06:57):
If we have all of the same things, that is a thing.
Speaker 1 (07:00):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (07:01):
That sometimes we end up losing stuff and we'll say
it's by accident.
Things just get gathered up andwe don't know.
But, right, wrong orindifferent, we end up losing
stuff.
I need a forklift.
Speaker 1 (07:12):
Can you get me a forklift?
Speaker 2 (07:14):
No, because first off , I may be renting it, so I may
not be able to, based on mycontract.
Let somebody else that's notworking for me use it, but I
need one for the job.
Speaker 1 (07:22):
Your bill's going.
Speaker 2 (07:25):
What.
Speaker 1 (07:26):
If I don't get a forklift, there's two more days
I was like what Because?
Your bill's going to go up fortwo more days because I can't
get one today.
Speaker 2 (07:33):
Then I'm going to have to have my people do
whatever that portion of the jobis, because you haven't been
trained on that lift.
Okay, so you have to havetraining on the PIT aerial lift
genie boom, I need an aeriallift too.
And don't even come in herewith some kind of forklift
(07:54):
basket.
We're not doing that either.
I need an aerial lift because Igot to get up there and do that
.
Then you'll need to rent one.
Speaker 1 (07:55):
Okay, you'll need to procure one for yourself and
then show me training for it.
All right, so basically allthese things is my job as a
contractor to divert thatliability.
Speaker 2 (08:01):
Absolutely.
And so on the front end, as thehost employer, what you want to
do is figure out what that listof materials and PPE and
equipment is going to be on thefront end.
So they need to go in confinedspaces.
Are they going to bring theirown tripod and davit system and
winch and all of that stuff?
Are they bringing their ownfall harnesses?
Are they bringing their ownmeters?
Are they bringing their own hotwork stuff?
(08:21):
Whose permits are we usinganytime we have to do any of
this stuff?
You know, if they're going tobe working within a leading edge
, how are they going to manageit?
Because theoretically, theyshould have a process for that.
And so let's try to work allthat stuff out on the front end,
because then we can get out ofwhen they roll up and they don't
have any of that and they havethis meter.
It's not currently calibrated,we don't have.
Then we're out of that firsthour craziness of the program
(08:45):
that we talked about a couple,yeah, a couple episodes back,
which, well, I'll link it uphere.
Speaker 1 (08:50):
So you can now I will tell you I've had some great
contractor crews who wereflawless and trying to hard out
to make sure this stuff wasright.
Yes, but yes.
But what happens?
Speaker 2 (08:59):
over all the years we've been doing this, these are
things that came about thatshut everything down there are,
and now we're trying to runaround for what we can do
legally yeah, and and we are allin crunch time because we only
have a certain amount of timeallotted that we pulled
everything offline to be able todo this project.
So, whether that's because wecan't hold temp and weather
related, or it's because theplant has to start up at a
(09:20):
certain time, or we've gotorders we have to fill, or
something's coming and we've gotto do whatever.
Speaker 1 (09:24):
But yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (09:30):
Part of our job.
It's always a time crunch andwhen we have this weird go on
with the contractor and we'retrying to play who's liable?
Who's signing the hot workpermit?
Who's going to be liable if weburn stuff down?
Who's going to be liable on theconfined space side if we have
an entrant and things go bad?
That's eating up that time, butit's an important conversation,
so we just need to pull thatconversation out of project day
and move it to earlier in theweek.
Speaker 1 (09:51):
And so, for those of you who don't know us, we do not
manage projects as safety.
We manage complex problems thatare timeline-based, that have
to be done right now and helpeveryone get through it from the
safety side.
So what he means by that is…it's a different view of dealing
with it.
Speaker 2 (10:07):
Yeah, so we're not going to roll up and be on site
during a project for 30 straightdays every day.
We deal with when it's the mostchaotic and most catastrophic,
which is typically at thebeginning and maybe some stuff
in the middle and then at theend.
So we're not there camped out.
We're only there on thecritical days where we know it
could go bad and we're reallykind of nervous.
Speaker 1 (10:25):
Talked about usually happens, the first few hours of
a five-day project.
Yep, because we've got tofigure it out, yep.
Speaker 2 (10:30):
So whatever that is.
So that's kind of our skill set.
That's where some of this iscoming from.
Again, this is our opinion.
Take it how you want Do athorough risk assessment of
what's going on with yourparticular project and your
particular vendors andcontractors.
Validate that insurance to makesure it's really what you need,
because that's another onethat's really important when we
talk about liabilities makingsure we have current insurance,
the right insurance, what theycan actually do and the right
(10:53):
work comp for the right stateyeah for the right state what
they can actually do with thatinsurance.
Speaker 1 (10:57):
So some insurance has to be changed based on what
projects they're going to takeon Because our insurance premium
is very high compared to somepeople that are maybe our
competitors, but it's because wedo things live.
Yes, it is I mean so as acontractor, insurance requires
and then vice versa.
We had one years ago where theinsurance was way too much.
(11:18):
They needed because they wereat a mill, but they were only
pouring concrete, so they didn'tneed it.
Speaker 2 (11:22):
Yeah, they didn't need stuff, for, you know,
firing a torch in an explosivespace, potentially yeah, so work
with what they really need.
Speaker 1 (11:31):
so get on the front end, manage it.
And then the last thing is yoursite inspection forms and
training.
We talked about that'simportant work with your crews
the few days before, work withthem that day, but make sure
you're you're getting your, youknow, your, basically your scope
in your mind of what are wereally doing and do we have you
know, if, if, if, if you, youhave a ladder, I have a ladder
then maybe the deal is Idiscount my bill because you're
(11:53):
going to let me borrow a ladderor I'm renting the equipment.
You may have rented it for meand I'm doing the bill of laden
for the equipment, so you mayhave got it because it's cheaper
, but I'm actually going to payfor it, so I take the liability.
There's ways you can move inand out of those systems.
Speaker 2 (12:19):
And I think once we figure that out, then we can
start breaking the project downinto phases Correct, and we can
start doing risk assessments forphase one and breaking down.
Okay, there's four weeks inphase one, each week, what are
we looking at?
And we can start backing thatup.
And so it's not such an well.
We could never do a riskassessment for a project.
This is going to be a threemonth long project, no problem.
Then break it up into phases,break each phase up into weeks
(12:43):
and then you start managing eachday of week one, each day of
week two If you do a line breakor you do anything that needs a
certified inspector.
Speaker 1 (12:51):
Boiler line breaks piping inside of a unit and that
inspector goes in there.
It may be the contractor'sdoing a part, then the
inspector's part, then thelocation validates that it's
okay for ops and thenmaintenance says yes, we're good
to go, and then they put itonline.
So there may be five or sixentities involved with that
process and it may go back tolike we had the other day.
(13:11):
The inspector said there's agap, contractor goes back and
has to do it again.
So you work on where thosecutoffs and who's got to
validate food safety.
A lot of times we have tovalidate in our locations if
something's good or not for aweld.
Speaker 2 (13:22):
Yeah, or maybe a maintenance person to say yes,
good, but to work on where thosecutoffs are and you go through,
and I think my last big one isprobably going to be lockout yes
, lockout, and confined spaceassessments.
So, when you are workingthrough how to start mitigating
and reducing your liability as ahost employer or even as a
contractor, if you're notconfident and you're not sure
(13:43):
and you're not really feeling ahundred percent, like if someone
subpoenaed this I know this iscorrect.
And I feel like there's noquestion.
I know that this assessment orthis lockout's right, we need to
work on that.
That's something that I wouldencourage you to really take a
look at, because we want to makesure that everything we do is a
process and not a person.
So if Joe comes in ascontractor A and says, you know
what, I need a lockout procedure, I don't, as the host employer,
(14:06):
want to verbally tell himanything.
I want to hand him a sheet ofpaper that's been validated and
reviewed and checked by theexpert at my location for that
piece of equipment and hand itto him, and that is the process
that we do.
Speaker 1 (14:18):
You can choose to follow it or not, but that's how
we do it and that's why we talkabout financial assessment in
the other episodes or in theseepisodes.
That it's not about if you gointo space.
It's about if a contractor doesthat's right and removing the
liability and removing theliability from the host, and so
you know we're giving it over tothe contractor.
Speaker 2 (14:36):
We have an evaluated space.
Yep, We've identified thehazards.
Speaker 1 (14:41):
Because there's no way I'm going to know how to do
everything for lockout or find aspace or location.
Yeah, so I've completed it.
Speaker 2 (14:45):
Right.
Speaker 1 (14:52):
Yeah, it yeah.
He may not know which bucket inthe MCC room.
Speaker 2 (14:53):
It's been three weeks I've been here.
I don't know if you changed it.
Yeah, so we want to again makesure that we've got processes
and systems, We've got forms andinspections and evaluations and
risk assessments, and we wantto make sure that we have all of
that well ahead of time andthat way that allows us that if
we do find we have a gap, we'vegot time to address it before
it's project day hour one.
Speaker 1 (15:12):
Absolutely All right.
We appreciate you listeningtoday.
Speaker 2 (15:15):
All right.
So if you've got more questionsagain, allensafetycoachingcom,
you can reach out there If youwant some support on some
projects.
Allen-safetycom, we do projectsafety stuff, like we said, but
we don't hang out all during allthe during the entire project
days it's the critical days only.
So that's that's kind of how weview that and how we work
through that.
Otherwise we do training.
You can check out Allen dashsafetycom to see the different
(15:38):
in-person services, assessments,procedures, all that good stuff
that we can provide you Ifyou've got safety questions.
Otherwise, you can catch upwith us on any of the socials
joe allen and jen allen onlinkedin.
Allen safety llc is our handleon tiktok, facebook, instagram,
all the things.
So if you wanted to see whatwe've been up to, where we're
traveling and what we're doingin those different states, we
(15:58):
post different fun videos aboutthat too, so you can kind of see
what we're doing and wherewe're at.
I'm going to four or fivedifferent ones this week.
30 hours of driving just thisweek alone.
So so, uh, lots to see, lots tocover, lots of ground to cover.
So, all right, if you've gotepisodes you want to request,
direct message us.
We'll try and fit those in andotherwise, have a great week,
everybody, take care.
(16:18):
Thank you for listening to safe,efficient, profitable a worker
safety podcast.
If you're looking for morein-depth discussions or
step-by-step solutions on all ofthe different safety and
regulatory topics, please visitus at wwwallensafetycoachingcom
for web-based virtual coachingand training, or at
wwwallen-safetycom to book ourteam for onsite services,
(16:42):
training sessions, to ordermerchandise, to learn more about
our team and what services weprovide in the field, or just
simply to request a topic for usto cover on our next podcast.
If you found today's podcasthelpful and would like to
support our podcast further,please help us by subscribing,
liking and sharing this podcastwith anyone that could benefit
from the information we coverhere, as that helps us to
continue to put out this freecontent.
(17:03):
Thank you so much for yoursupport.
Thank you.
Popular Podcasts
Bookmarked by Reese's Book Club
Welcome to Bookmarked by Reese’s Book Club — the podcast where great stories, bold women, and irresistible conversations collide! Hosted by award-winning journalist Danielle Robay, each week new episodes balance thoughtful literary insight with the fervor of buzzy book trends, pop culture and more. Bookmarked brings together celebrities, tastemakers, influencers and authors from Reese's Book Club and beyond to share stories that transcend the page. Pull up a chair. You’re not just listening — you’re part of the conversation.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.