October 5, 2022 • 40 mins
This week we’re talking to Vysh Sivakumaran, a certified strength coach, trauma informed yoga instructor, and a fitness industry leader in the Toronto community.
Vysh (vai-sh) works to create inclusive, body neutral, and accessible fitness, through 1:1, group, and corporate services within her online fitness community, Fitness in Place (FIP). With her powerlifting background and quick adaptation at the start of the pandemic, she was awarded Canfitpro's Fitness Professional of the Year Award. She advocates passionately for representation in the industry for South Asian women, but more broadly, aims to be a voice for all people who may face barriers in the wellness.
We had an amazing conversation with Vysh about how she shifted her own understanding of health & diet culture, and how that has shifted the way she works with clients; the importance of safe inclusive fitness spaces, how she cultivates those spaces, and how the fitness world can do better; how having safe, trauma-informed, inclusive spaces helps build body autonomy; how she's working to create a place at the table for herself & her community; and the link between representation and overcoming impostor syndrome.
Here's where you can find Vysh:
Website
Instagram
Facebook
LinkedIn
You can stay up to date on all things Satisfaction Factor by following us on IG @satisfactionfactorpod!
Here's where to find us:
Sadie Simpson: www.sadiesimpson.com or IG @sadiemsimpson
Naomi Katz: www.happyshapes.co or IG @happyshapesnaomi
For this episode's transcript, visit: www.satisfactionfactorpod.com
Referenced in this episode:
Vysh's published article for CanFitPro
Vysh's IG post about imposter syndrome
Harvard Business Review - "Stop Telling Women They Have Imposter Syndrome" by Ruchika Tulshyan and Jodi-Ann Burey
Stay in touch with the pod on IG @satisfactionfactorpod!
And here's where you can continue to find us:
Sadie Simpson: www.sadiesimpson.com or IG @sadiemsimpson
Naomi Katz: www.happyshapes.co or IG @happyshapesnaomi
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Naomi Katz (00:03):
Welcome to Satisfaction Factor, the podcast
where we explore how ditchingdiet culture makes our whole
lives more satisfying.
Welcome back to SatisfactionFactor. I'm Naomi Katz, an
Intuitive Eating, body image,and self trust coach.
Sadie Simpson (00:26):
I'm Sadie Simpson, a group fitness
instructor, personal trainer,and Intuitive Eating counselor.
So it's been a minute. Wehaven't had a full podcast
episode in two weeks, since wehave recently switched over to
our new format. So if you're newaround here, or if you haven't
been listening to the lastcouple of episodes, instead of
(00:48):
releasing new episodes everysingle week, we are slowing down
a little bit and spacing thingsout to every other week, so that
we can focus more on TheSatisfaction Space community.
Naomi Katz (01:01):
Yeah. The Satisfaction Space is our brand
new online community for folksto connect to others who are
also doing the work ofdisengaging from diet culture.
And it is officially open forenrollment to everyone.
Sadie Simpson (01:17):
Yay.
Naomi Katz (01:18):
So, I mean, what exactly does this mean? So, for
starters, if you enjoy listeningto new episodes of our podcast
every week, and you're maybemissing us on the off weeks, you
will be able to access bonuscontent within The Satisfaction
Space. In addition to the extraepisode content, we really
(01:38):
wanted to create a special spaceto continue building a community
outside of just the two of us.
Sadie Simpson (01:44):
Yes, and The Satisfaction Space is more than
just bonus content. It's also aplace where you can connect with
other people who are seeking tocultivate a more satisfying
life. Each month, we'll behosting live virtual hangouts,
which will consist of thingslike q&a sessions, mini
coaching, and more. There isalso a community message board
(02:07):
where you'll be able to meetwith other folks, share your
thoughts on our episodes, andeven ask some questions. So
we'll both be in the messageboards throughout the week to
respond to your questionsdirectly. But you'll also get
the benefit of receiving insightand responses from other
community members as well.
Naomi Katz (02:28):
Yeah, it's a pretty cool space, I think, honestly. A
few other things to note. Yes,there is a cost, but it's
minimal. It's $10 a month, andit can be cancelled at any time.
Really, as we were approachingour one year podcastiversary. We
talked a lot about how we couldmake the Satisfaction Factor
(02:48):
more community oriented, andmore sustainable for us, too. It
costs money and a lot of time toproduce a podcast, and if you
have found value in the episodeswe've released so far, joining
the satisfaction space is a verysimple way that you can support
this podcast and us whilegetting the benefits of bonus
(03:11):
content community and very lowcost mini coaching from us in
the monthly live hangouts.
Sadie Simpson (03:17):
Yeah, so if that sounds like something you're
interested in, head to the linkin the show notes to join or go
to the satisfaction space dot mn.co. Now
Naomi Katz (03:29):
onto this week's episode. Yay. So this week, I
got to speak with Vice SivaKumar in vice is a certified
strength coach, trauma informedyoga instructor and a fitness
industry leader in the TorontoCommunity, working to create
inclusive body neutral andaccessible Fitness Through one
(03:52):
on one group and corporateservices within her her online
fitness community fitness inplace. With her powerlifting
background and quick adaptationat the start of the pandemic she
was awarded can fit pros fitnessprofessional of the Year Award.
She advocates passionately forrepresentation in the industry
for South Asian women, but morebroadly aims to be a voice for
(04:15):
all people who may face barriersin the wellness space. We had an
amazing conversation about theimportance of safe inclusive
fitness spaces, body autonomy,representation and overcoming
impostor syndrome. So let's talkto Vice vice. Welcome. Thank you
so much for being here with ustoday. We're really excited to
(04:39):
talk to you about all theawesome stuff you've got going
on right now.
Vysh Sivakumaran (04:43):
Thanks again.
Thank you so much, Naomi, forhaving me and sad as well. Thank
you so much.
Naomi Katz (04:48):
Yeah, of course. So we're just gonna dive right in
with our first question, whichis a big one, but we kind of
designed it to be broad so thatwe get some interesting answers
from it. So what has your We'reexperienced with diet culture,
Ben.
Vysh Sivakumaran (05:03):
So yeah, that is that is a big one. And I
appreciate that, that heads upon that. So with diet culture, I
know growing up, I was quite Iguess isolated with my my
culture and my Sri Lankan,thummell culture and the the
rice and the curries. And it wasquite that every day. And there
(05:24):
was this mentality thateverything needs to be eaten
from the plate, like the lastgrain of grain of rice needs to
be eaten, right. So I don'tknow, necessarily that I
experienced that culture growingup, but there was some level of
restrictions on you know, what Ienjoyed and what I wanted to do,
or the however, I think strictlywhen I started CrossFit, that
was my real first. This was PostUniversity 2013, after after I
(05:51):
graduated, where there were likepaleo diet, this is that this is
the caveman, you need to dothis. And I was like, Okay, I
like the structure. There'ssomething telling me this is
what I need to do. I like beinga perfectionist. Let me go at
it. So I started the processthere. I think in the middle of
it, I really thought I was doingthe right thing. I thought this
(06:12):
was it. Like, I don't needanything else. But it wasn't
sustainable. Right. Like, again,I was still living with my
parents, they were still feedingme rice and curries. And there
wasn't, you know, it wasn't acaveman diet at home. So I would
start to feel bad when I didn'tget that, you know, that
perfection side of it. So yeah,that's a little bit of where I
(06:33):
started. But of course, myjourney continued onward from
there. So yeah,
Naomi Katz (06:38):
that really speaks to something so significant
within diet culture, which isthe erasure of cultural foods,
and like the demonization ofcultural foods to that, you
know, you grew up without reallyany sense of diet, culture, and
eating, you know, your culturalfoods, and just that being the
(06:59):
thing, and then you go out intoCrossFit. And suddenly, it's
like, oh, those foods are wrong,you shouldn't be eating those
foods, but you're still livingin your house, where those are
still the foods and so you justend up in this place of like,
guilt and shame and just feelingbad about eating the foods that,
you know, are, are relevant toyou and your cultural
(07:21):
background, and your family andall of those things. And that
disconnect is prettysignificant.
Vysh Sivakumaran (07:28):
Yeah, 100%, and you hit the nail on the
head. And I I'm honestly, aswe're talking, I feel like it's
a little bit of therapy there.
Yeah, I think you said it betterthan I even processed it in my
mind that it did feel like youknow, something was wrong with
my cultural foods. And Iprobably did give my mom you
know, who who was the mainperson who cooked a bit of, you
know, I guess, took it took itfor granted right on that. And,
(07:50):
you know, because I was stillliving at home. And it was
always there, day in day out,never shifted, you know, and
when it was stability andstructure there too, but I
didn't appreciate it as much asI do now.
Naomi Katz (08:03):
Yeah, yeah. So what changed for you? So you're, you
know, you're doing CrossFit andyou're in this like paleo era,
which is weird, because thePaleo era is a different thing.
Yeah, you're in your paleo era.
And, you know, experiencing thisdisconnect at home and stuff.
What How did things shift foryou? Or did you stay there for a
(08:26):
while?
Vysh Sivakumaran (08:28):
Yeah, that's a good question. So I mean, I
think, going into leaving toleaving the CrossFit world and
actually moving countries, toCanada, so originally, I was
born in Canada, but then movedto Ohio for about 18 years. So
there is where I spent, youknow, CrossFit, graduation, all
that and then moved back toToronto, and that shift into the
(08:52):
personal training world. Soshifted me in a lot of good
ways. It was something I wasreally passionate about, I was a
business analyst and now all ofa sudden, I'm I'm, I'm a fitness
coach. So I was learning a lot.
But then I entered into thiscorporate gym world, where if I
didn't look like a trainer, thenI wasn't a trainer, there was
some level of me just disconnectthere, my insecurities are
(09:15):
coming. So I did start to Ibelieve, start to really hone in
on wanting to be skinny andeating less carbs, and really
focusing in on no specific diet,I would say but just a low carb,
low carb diet that wasn't energywise was really depleting me
every day. And quite a bit ofthings happen. When you don't
(09:38):
have sleep, you don't haveenergy, your relationship starts
to suffer and everything elsestarts to sort of fall apart. So
there was a lot of again,question mark on, I guess,
giving myself the bestopportunity to succeed, but
because I had that paleoexperience, and now I'm at the
trainer in the training worldneeding to feel like I live
(09:58):
Look, the part really which isnot true, you can be a trainer
doesn't matter what you looklike there's so much value
beyond that, that that oneoffers as a professional. But
anyways, there was definitelysome toxic things that I was
dealing with for the next two tothree years post paleo as I was
becoming a trainer, I felt Iprobably looked the best, but I
(10:20):
was definitely the mostunhappiest as well.
Naomi Katz (10:25):
Yeah, yeah, it's so interesting, you know, there's
so much talk in the personaltraining world about health. But
all the standards within thepersonal training world, put you
in this incredibly unhealthyplace. Like a lot of times,
you're very sleep deprived,because of the hours that you
have to put in, especially as anew trainer. And then there's
(10:48):
all the like restriction andDiet Rules. And so they are also
not fueling yourself enough tosustain that. And it's really
antithetical to this wholeconcept of I'm here to help you
get healthier it is it
Vysh Sivakumaran (11:03):
is I mean, you know, I did prescribe to the
before and after pictures, and Iprescribed to, you know, making
sure I was telling folks, No,you shouldn't eat that you
shouldn't have canola oil,right? Like this, that's just
not the right oil to have withyour crude. And it's, it's all
these like, shoulds, and shouldnots and, and really not
necessarily allowing, you know,everything that I was taught, I
was just regurgitating andgiving, but I did it in the most
(11:26):
kind way, as that is my naturenot to be a super bootcamp
oriented trainer. But at the endof the day, it was still
restrictive. And I think thatprobably led to some of my
clients potentially feeding intotheir own diet culture habits,
too. So yeah, it's
Naomi Katz (11:43):
like, I wonder what would happen if, you know,
obviously, we, we don't wantpeople's bodies to be their
calling cards to be theirbusiness cards. But imagine if
we said that, but what we meantwas like the health of your
body, or like, the way you carefor yourself is, you know, the
example that you're sending, asopposed to just like your body
(12:04):
size.
Vysh Sivakumaran (12:05):
And that's exactly what I do now with my
clients and one on one on mygroup end. And fortunately,
because of the pandemic, a lotof clients, a lot of folks are
virtual, so I can definitelystill reach them, whether
they're in my area or not. Andreally push this whole narrative
that you know, you are more thanyour body, right you there is I
mean, there is a level of bodyacceptance or body love that we
(12:27):
can give to the body. But at theend of the day, your health is
much more than just youraesthetics of what your body
looks like. And unfortunately,that's what sells in the fitness
industry and what gets some ofus here, but I don't think it's
the end all be all of thatjourney.
Naomi Katz (12:43):
Yeah. So obviously, your approach to this has
changed a lot since those earlydays. How did you get out of
that early days of likerestriction and things like
that, to where you are now in aplace of body acceptance and
authentic health and all ofthose kinds of concepts?
Vysh Sivakumaran (13:05):
Yeah, good question. I mean, I honestly I
don't, I don't know if there wasone specific moment. For me, I
think there is just thisunderstanding that I, you know,
now being in the industry, as atrainer for the last six, seven
years, I'm noticing I can seethe changes and the differences
between training with thatrestrictive style and not even
(13:26):
understanding diet culture, andjust saying, yeah, do whatever
you need to do just hit thesemacros hit these hit these
specific targets for your carband your your fats and your
proteins. Right. And now I'mmore on the end is are you
getting? Do you know what thoseare? And are you getting all
everything you can get from yourfoods? And what, you know, are
you feeling sustained and ableto basically give yourself that
(13:50):
energy that you need for theday. So I think the shift for
within myself has definitelyshifted how I do train my
clients. And I want to say Ifeel like more through the
pandemic in the last two years,I've been a lot more
accommodating moreunderstanding, even just
understanding diet culture was abig shift for me and knowing
(14:10):
that you know what, there'sstats and studies that show
diets create a lot of potentialweight gain. And so what are we
doing here? How, why are wefeeding into something that
isn't working? And then again,also understanding the power
structures behind diet cultureand what they're trying to gain.
And I did learn a lot of thatfrom from you, Naomi, from your
core, so huge props to you forhelping me learn and understand.
(14:35):
Yeah, so it was it wasdefinitely it's still a process
for me. I'm not I'm not done. Ihave a lot to still learn. But I
think the more I do better formyself, and I learned that I can
of course do better for mycommunity.
Naomi Katz (14:48):
Yeah, I mean, that's the thing, right? We're never
actually done with this. There'salways more layers to peel back
but it sounds like the big shiftfor you has just been learning
this stuff. And like the thehigher level, like the
structures behind it, and howthat has shown up in your own
experiences and how that showsup for your clients and stuff
(15:09):
like that?
Vysh Sivakumaran (15:10):
Definitely, definitely, I think if I was to
add on the intersectionalitypiece of knowing that my own
identity is full of multipleidentities and understanding,
right, the the, you know, whitesupremacy, understanding
patriarchal value systems,understanding how that all plays
into my own self worth, and whyI may feed into diet culture
(15:31):
right now, I'm giving myselfgrace and compassion. Whereas
before I really blamed myselffor all the wrongdoings right,
so there was, there was a shiftthere, I think, early pandemic
that gave me and it was alreadybuilding up to it. But yeah,
that really helped me as well.
And diet, diet culture justfalls into all that too.
Naomi Katz (15:50):
Yeah, absolutely. I think that the the time of the
pandemic, and obviously, all theother things that happened
during the pandemic, you know,the peak of, you know, our
awareness around whitesupremacy, and you know, how
that was showing up and evenclassism, and capitalism, and
like, all these other systems,and I think over the pandemic,
(16:12):
really, like our awareness as asociety of these things kind of
peaked. And, like, you kind ofget to a point where it's like,
a diet culture is just upholdingthose things. And that's not
compatible with my values. Andso I have to look at how I'm
doing things.
Vysh Sivakumaran (16:29):
Exactly, exactly. Yeah. GEORGE Floyd's,
you know, murder. And then you'dlike you said, there was this
social justice movement, peak ofeverything. And, and for me, I
didn't want it to just be apeak, I wanted it to stick with
me. I wanted it to continue. Solearning and understanding and
kind of breaking down our oldvalues and understanding okay,
(16:49):
it is, it's not my fault thatthis is what this is what's
happened, I want to I want to dobetter, though, how can I shift?
How can I learn and keep moving?
Naomi Katz (16:56):
And you do, one of the big things that you focus on
is diversity and inclusion andaccessibility and fitness
spaces? Right? Correct. Can youkind of tell us more about what
you're doing in that space? Andhow you are sort of bringing
those values into your space?
Vysh Sivakumaran (17:15):
Sure. Yeah. So I mean, the thing that I saw a
lot with being at that corporategym for in person for five years
is that there isn't this levelof accessibility, right in terms
of I've had a lot of folks,maybe they were able to afford
the gym membership, but theyweren't able to afford the
training, right, there was justnot that there was no seeking,
(17:38):
they're seeking the professionalguidance, but couldn't couldn't
make the time or couldn't havethe financial resources. And so
seeing that seeing a lot offolks that had had to sort of,
they said no to me, or theywalked away because of those
concerns. I was like, Okay,well, now we're in the virtual
world virtual space pandemicshere. As soon as that started, I
felt this need for especiallyfor movement for our mental
(18:01):
health, all that alone wasenough of a reason to create
fitness in place with and I didthat actually with my partner as
well. So it was helpful that weboth were able to come from this
personal training world wherehe's more of a bodybuilder. I'm
more of a power lifter. And wecame from two different types of
fitness worlds, to then come inand say, Okay, let's provide
(18:24):
accessible fitness with everydayhousehold items. Let's move with
a broomstick, let's move withwith a backpack. Right? That was
one piece, there was a shortageof right of equipment. And so we
needed to improvise. And thenthe other piece was creating a
space that was radicallyinclusive, that allowed us to
(18:45):
really just show up as we areand not necessarily judge or
shame each other, or allow forany fat phobic comments or
transphobic comments, we arehere to really find a way to
even just be neutral, right? Wedon't we don't it's not even
about positivity, or we got to,you know, pull each other up in
(19:05):
these hard times. No, it's justwe're gonna come here with the
capacity that we have, and buildsome strength. Let's see what
happens. Right. So that wasanother piece of, of the
environment that we create. Andthat's why I think we are still
around even two years later.
We're not a trend anymore. We'rehere to stay through this
process. Yeah,
Naomi Katz (19:24):
I think oh, God, people, I think crave those
kinds of like inclusive spaces,even if they don't know like,
once you experience it, it justfeels like a safe place to be or
a place that maybe allows you toaccess bravery for yourself and
and things like that.
Vysh Sivakumaran (19:43):
Right. Right.
Yeah. And it's, I mean, I doidentify as an empath and even
as a highly sensitive person. SoI know that I've created these
spaces. With that in mind thatyou know, there are not a lot
of, you know, being out in thereal world. The world isn't made
for us in that way. If you're anempath. They're highly sensitive
person. And and it is there'sthere's facts that show studies
(20:03):
that show there's 20 to 30% offolks that are truly truly
sensitive that need a little bitmore and catering a little bit
more, you know, hey, like, whatare you feeling? How can we
shift gears in a way that'sconstructive for you. And
unfortunately, the fitnessindustry does not create that,
that level of detail andintuitive style of training. So
I'm just, again, I'm excitedthat I am in the position to be
(20:28):
able to create these spaces,whereas, you know, five, six
years ago, when I started mytraining, you know, I didn't
even know if I would still be atrainer. So I'm still but I
think I'm still here. And I, I'mglad, I'm glad it all happened
the way it did.
Naomi Katz (20:44):
Yeah. So I know that, you know, you're very
passionate about diversity andinclusion, about body autonomy
and things like that. And Iwould just, I would love to hear
more about where fitness spacesare still lacking in these
things and how you can kind ofcultivate and be an ally for
(21:05):
these things in in fitnessspaces. Blacking wise,
Vysh Sivakumaran (21:10):
I, again, this level of like, of level of
learning, right, like there wasthis D AI movement with a lot of
companies there, there is alevel of it being performative
versus impactful. And, and so I,at the end of the day, if we're
not continuously learning andmaking mistakes, there's always
going to be a gap. And that'sthe part that I think if we can
(21:32):
create, or at least honor thatpiece of, hey, I don't know
everything, but I can do betterfor my clients, because we are
we are servicing humans, right?
So for, you know, an example ofthat is knowing that, you know,
a person that is trans may entera different bathroom than they
than they think they should, andElise allowing for that space to
exist and saying, Hey, like, weunderstand that, and we're going
(21:56):
to make it work with you, Idon't necessarily have all the
answers, but I want to help youfeel comfortable in my space,
physical space, or virtualspace, I think there's a lot of
work again, that the fitnessindustry can do to be more
inclusive, it's as simple asthat knowing that there are non
binary bodies, knowing that noteveryone has even a gender that
(22:16):
they identify with. We do needto not just accommodate but be
inclusive with these folks. Solacking lies, I think learning
and education, we can do a lotmore there. And again, thankful
to your all yalsa podcasts andlike, again, learning is is key
for sure. So when it comes toyour second question, you know,
(22:38):
body autonomy, how do youcultivate that? How do you how
do you give that to yourself andeven within your communities? It
definitely starts with yourself,right? I I just went through my
own wedding this past June, andthere was definitely some diet
culture needs that was brewinginside me, I'm not the right
size. I'm not fitting into mydress, what do I do? Where do I
(22:59):
go. And so there, there's alwaysthese potential, you know,
challenges that we face that wecan say, Hey, I know better, I
know what I need to do, I don'tneed to shame myself into
fitting into this dress, I knowI need to eat, I'm going to make
sure I still give myself thefood I need to function and to
be able to exist and really beexcited about my day versus
(23:21):
fretting over over all of it. Soagain, it starts with yourself
and then education,understanding what you can do
and potentially hiring someoneif there isn't enough of your
own motivation or discipline tosort of learn more, you know,
definitely look into educatorslike Niomi, like Sadie who can
assist on that, because we can,we can learn a lot from from
(23:45):
each other.
Naomi Katz (23:47):
Awesome. Yeah. So I know that you very much focus on
creating these like safe traumainformed inclusive spaces. Do
you feel like having a spacelike that is important for
cultivating body autonomy that,like it's hard to access bodily
autonomy without access tospaces like that?
Vysh Sivakumaran (24:10):
Yeah, I think I mean, I would say yes, I think
when you don't have thefoundation of being trauma
informed and understanding theimpact of white supremacy of the
impacts of you know, potentiallybeing an able bodied, white sis,
individual, there are a lot ofgaps that I know that I've felt
(24:31):
in gym spaces where I'm like, Idon't I don't feel seen. I don't
feel accepted. I don't know if Ibelong, where do I go? I mean,
and then I'm, you know, spendingtime there consistently feeling
all these ways, but then tryingto get a workout. How does that
all fit into my experience?
Right? So it doesn't it reallydoesn't I think that's why it is
important to understandintersectionality and how our
(24:52):
identities do provide benefitsand they also provide
disadvantages and and how thatcombination is different for
everyone. And so from there,knowing these foundations that
allows us to sort of know, findour sense of self, and then
sense of self leads to a senseof body as well, with my trauma
(25:13):
informed background that reallycemented the understanding that
those who are traumatized, whichis quite a bit of us through the
pandemic, to be honest, a lot ofus have gone through something
at some point. And that initself, you know, we sometimes
don't get the opportunity tounderstand how our sense of self
(25:34):
is impacted by that trauma. So,in that respect, what I tried to
do with fitness and place, whatI tried to do with any fitness
space I'm in is that I, again,try to create or offer an
opportunity to come back to thesense of self, so you can honor
your body needs, and body goals,and whatever that whatever your
(25:56):
body autonomy is, yeah,
Naomi Katz (26:01):
oh my gosh, I love so much this linking of sense of
self to sense of body. And Iespecially love that you put it
where like sense of self comesfirst. And then leads into sense
of body, I think a lot of timespeople want to flip that, or
they make self and body the samething. And like really
(26:24):
recognizing that self isdifferent. It's bigger. And it's
maybe more important, like itcomes first, it prioritized over
a sense of body, and that youreally can't heal how you feel
about your body without healingthat sense of self. That's so
important.
Vysh Sivakumaran (26:43):
100% 100%, I know that I've gone through, I
think, to my mid 20s, without asense of self, and you know,
still working on my body, butnot really having a sense of
self. It just didn't connectthere. They are two different
things, right? Our body is aphysical thing where our sense
of self isn't tangible, it'sinternal, right? Well, how do we
(27:05):
navigate our own dialogue withinourselves? Are we treating
ourselves compassionatelythrough all the diet culture,
you know, talk and the fitnessindustry toxic? Oh, you need to
look a certain way to bevaluable in this world. So it is
two separate worlds that I dothink need to be addressed. And
like you said, the sense of selfpeace in it in my trauma
(27:27):
informed course that I took withthe Justice Research Institute
in Boston, that the coursereally cemented that when one is
going undergoing trauma, or hassome level of trauma dynamics in
their life, the the sense ofself is lost or never created.
And so that also shifts thewhole piece that if it was never
(27:47):
created, how do you get back toit? Well, then we start to allow
the body to, to make decisionsto make choices. So it does go
back and forth between the bodyand between that sense of self,
especially for one that hasn'thad the opportunity to get that
sense of self.
Naomi Katz (28:02):
Yeah, there's that reciprocity, it's because the
physical reality of our bodiesis also going to really impact
our ability to get that sense ofself. So if like you were
talking about how, like,sometimes you felt like you
didn't belong in these spaces,and like how that like that you
didn't see yourself in thosespaces. And that that kind of
(28:23):
hindered your ability to accessthat sense of self for a little
while, too.
Vysh Sivakumaran (28:27):
Exactly.
Exactly. Just validating. It'svery validating when you know,
your body deserves and needsthings just as much as everyone
else does.
Naomi Katz (28:35):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And finding that
sense of self allows you torecognize that like, even if you
feel like your body doesn'tbelong, your self still deserves
these things. Yeah,
Vysh Sivakumaran (28:47):
yes. And honestly, if I didn't pick up
that weight in CrossFit times,when I back in the day, if I
didn't, like learn that my bodywas strong, and that I didn't
you know, that I didn't needvalidation from anyone else. I
just needed my own. It startedit really started there, to be
honest, and then understandingthe words behind it came in the,
(29:08):
in the 2020 user a little bitbefore that as well with my
psychotherapist with constantlytrying to understand how can I,
you know, give my sense of selfa belonging feel every day
versus just when I pick up thosewaves? So it's been a journey.
Naomi Katz (29:23):
Yeah, absolutely.
Well, and at this point, in yourjourney, you are like, there's
there's a lot of signs that youdo belong in the space these
days, right. So I helped me if Imissed anything, but you just
one can fit pro fitnessprofessionals a year. Right. And
Forbes, the culture. You're amember of that, right? Correct.
(29:45):
Yes. And these are some prettybig things. Is there anything I
missed?
Vysh Sivakumaran (29:51):
No, no, those are the most recent, I think,
yeah,
Naomi Katz (29:55):
yeah. So you know, can you talk a little bit about
what it's been like to To be apart of these spaces, and what
that sort of meant in terms ofmaybe showing other people that
they belong in these spaces.
Vysh Sivakumaran (30:09):
Yeah, yeah. So I mean, when I, when I won the
fifth special the Year award, Ireally didn't think I was going
to win, I did call out thefitness industry, in my winning
video of saying that, that Ididn't belong, that the industry
was dominated by fit enablewhite folks and that, you know,
I'm going to create space, Idon't if there isn't a spot for
(30:30):
me at the table, let me at leastcreate the space for myself and
others. I know for a fact, a lotof other industries lack this
representation of, you know, youname it, right curvy person,
dark skinned person, transperson, there's, there's so many
like big bodied person, there'sjust so many different types of
models that we don't necessarilyhave or representation levels
(30:54):
that we have. So for me, therewas just this connection again,
understanding, hey, the worldisn't made for me, it isn't made
for all of us equally. Let thenif that's the case, then what do
we do to now help the youngergenerations ourselves to then
take up space or create spacefor ourselves? So when I put
(31:14):
that video together and reallytook my shot, or, you know, what
is the same? Shoot your shot?
Yeah, when I when I did that,that was really, that was really
me saying, like, you know what,I'm not going to stay silent
here anymore. However, afterwinning the award, there was a
lot of like, okay, well, I wantit what does this mean? Right? I
take up space, how do I continueto take up space? You know, and
(31:36):
those are question marks, I'mstill figuring out it's not one
and done. And we're here. I, youknow, I have to constantly work
towards, again, fostering mysense of self, my sense of
belonging, and then continuingto say, hey, I want to I want to
create a better life for myselfand my future generations of
whoever kids or nieces andnephews, and I want to say,
(31:59):
yeah, let me let me try let medo my best to do that. Yeah.
Naomi Katz (32:05):
You just spoke right at the canfitpro conference on
diversity and on body autonomy,and, and on representation and
stuff like that. And that'sdefinitely going a long way
towards opening up these spacesand taking up those spaces.
That's pretty amazing.
Vysh Sivakumaran (32:26):
Thank you. No, I mean, yeah, that and that was,
again, wasn't done by myself wassuper again, finding allies,
like yourself, finding allies,other women of color, who are in
the industry who want to speakon these matters. We're all
we're there. There's so many ofus out there. We're just now
trying to connect and say, Hey,let's do better for for the
industry. So I'm, again, supergrateful to know folks like
(32:47):
Rena, like Sam, who did thecanfitpro panels with me and
helped me also learn a lot too.
And those process
Naomi Katz (32:56):
Yes. On your Instagram recently, you talked
about how experiencing all thissuccess within the fitness
industry has brought up somefeelings of impostor syndrome
for you. And then also aboutkind of some analysis of
impostor syndrome that you havebeen doing and how that's been
helping you move past it. And Ithought that was so so powerful.
(33:19):
And I'm wondering if you cantell us a little bit more about
how that's playing out for youand what you've been learning
around that?
Vysh Sivakumaran (33:25):
Yeah, of course, of course. So, in case
you didn't see that Instagrampost, it was it was actually
acknowledging that impostorsyndrome was created without
actually the context of peopleof color, the context of systems
of power structures behind it,right. So when we, when we think
of imposter syndrome, if you'renot familiar with that term, it
(33:47):
is feeling like an imposter,right? And thinking that, you
know, you're an expert in thefield, but but at the same time,
feeling like you're a completesham as well, at the same time.
A lot of folks you know, we'vewe've learned like Maya Angelou,
Albert Einstein, and a lot offolks have had this now
understanding from like I said,from that point of view of okay,
(34:08):
this was created without peopleof color mind without the
marginalized folks in mind. NowI'm like, let's let's actually
dissect this, there's a greatarticle like I referenced it in
that in that post by the HarvardBusiness Review, stating how it
is more about these powerstructures, white supremacy,
patriarchal capitalism, diet,culture, all of this is all
(34:32):
coming together to sort of giveus this mold of not feeling
secure, potentially perpetuatethis level of insecurities and
and feed off of it right. Sowhen we, when we know these
contexts, the context of thegreater world that we live in
there for me at least that hasprovided this rewiring every day
(34:53):
because it is a consistent everyday where I sometimes do feed
into it and then other days, I'mjust like, Nope, I need to do
better for myself and for mycommunity, at the end of the
day, I think imposter syndrome,what can we do about it, we can
work through it, it's notsomething that's going to just
completely go away, if that'swhat you identify with, or if
you're just feeling insecure,and you're not sure why
(35:15):
understanding these biggersystems of power structures of
the world that we live in, itmakes a huge difference in
navigating it much morecompassionately.
Naomi Katz (35:24):
Yeah, oh my gosh, that's so it's so important. And
I'm just gonna say powerfulagain, because I think a lot of
people, especially when theystart to see success in a field
that is long been dominated bypeople who don't look like them,
you get that really intensefeeling of like, I don't deserve
(35:44):
to be here, like I shouldn't bethis successful, or whatever,
and being able to step away fromthat and look at that bigger
picture of like, what systemsare telling me that? And do I
buy into those systems? Or do Inot buy into those systems?
Right is huge. And I you know, Ialso love that you acknowledge
(36:06):
that you're still that doesn'tmean that you don't have the
feelings anymore, it just meansthat you have the tools to step
back and like coach yourselfthrough it and offer yourself
compassion for it and stuff likethat.
Vysh Sivakumaran (36:19):
100% And of course, surrounding yourself
with support systems that alsoget it because it it, I
definitely fall my fall into somuch some traps that where I'm
like, Why Why didn't that workout? Where we know, what could I
have done better? And it's justlike, hey, maybe it's not you,
maybe it is something biggerthat you can't control. So we
got to let you know, let go andaccept and sort of move into the
(36:40):
next next chapter of what weneed to get done. The
acknowledgement
Naomi Katz (36:44):
of how important community is within that is
huge. Yeah.
Vysh Sivakumaran (36:48):
Yeah, I wouldn't be here without my
community. 100%.
Naomi Katz (36:51):
So how can people work with you at fitness in
place?
Vysh Sivakumaran (36:56):
Yeah, that's such a that's a good question.
So when in terms of the theservices I offer and and and the
community offers, we have a oneon one group and corporate
section. So one on one, most ofmost of it is virtual, though I
do offer in person as well herein Toronto. But that area of my
(37:19):
training is something I truly dolove allowing folks to sort of
understand and have thatpersonal route to regaining
their sense of self andregaining their body, the group
size is quite accessible. It issomething that we do, we've been
doing since the pandemic hasstarted and continues to be a
radically inclusive space withsliding scale memberships, and
(37:41):
the ability to move as you canand with the capacity that you
have. And then corporate aswell, that is an another service
that can be used if there'ssomething that you feel like
your business can utilize it.
It's something that we have donelast year with a local company
here in Toronto and allowed themto sort of have a break in their
day and get some movement in. Itcan be quite a great source of
(38:03):
energy for folks to movetogether. Outside of that just
in person gym spaces. I alsocreate some classes and offers
tailored classes to what gymsare looking for, with a trauma
informed background. So yeah,just continuing to expand and
see what else is out there. Butyeah, those are the three areas
main three areas. Yeah.
Naomi Katz (38:26):
So where can people find you if they want to learn
more? Yeah,
Vysh Sivakumaran (38:30):
so website wise, WW dot fitness and
place.net. That's our website.
In terms of Instagram, it'sfitness underscore in underscore
place. You could find me on thator on my personal account, which
is where I also post a lot offitness and general motivation
and even hardships as well. Thatwould be a by vy, underscore,
(38:52):
she underscore lifts, Facebook,a lot of stuff is on there too.
If you if you type in fitness inplace, you'll find us there too.
Naomi Katz (39:02):
Awesome. I'm glad that you are all you have also
not entirely given up onFacebook just like me.
Vysh Sivakumaran (39:09):
Know, it's It's tough. It's tough. I know.
But it's still there. I don'tknow if it'll ever go away.
Yeah,
Naomi Katz (39:17):
yeah. Excellent.
Well, Vijay, it has been amazingtalking to you. You are just
doing such wonderful things inthe world. And I just I can't
wait to see what comes next foryou and and I hope that our
listeners reach out and get tobecome a part of your amazing
virtual community too.
Vysh Sivakumaran (39:39):
Yeah, thank you so much for having me. Thank
you city. Thank you know me forhaving me on this opportunity to
share what we do and and thankyou both for creating a better
safer space for a lot of folksto to exist in.
Naomi Katz (39:51):
Thanks again to Vice Eva Kumaran for that amazing
conversation. We definitely alllearned a ton from that.
Sadie Simpson (39:58):
Oh my gosh, me You too, especially since I
wasn't able to be there for theinterview, that was such a great
podcast. And just a quickreminder, if you are interested
in joining our podcast communitythe satisfaction space, be sure
to visit the link in our shownotes where you can get all the
information and sign up. And ifyou would like to support us in
(40:22):
other ways you can visit us onInstagram we are at satisfaction
factor pod. And we alwaysappreciate positive ratings and
reviews in Apple podcasts,Spotify or any other place that
allows you to leave a rating andreview. That's it for us this
week. We'll
Naomi Katz (40:41):
catch you next time.
Welcome to Satisfaction Factor, the podcast
where we explore how ditchingdiet culture makes our whole
lives more satisfying.
Welcome back to SatisfactionFactor. I'm Naomi Katz, an
Intuitive Eating, body image,and self trust coach.
Sadie Simpson (00:26):
I'm Sadie Simpson, a group fitness
instructor, personal trainer,and Intuitive Eating counselor.
So it's been a minute. Wehaven't had a full podcast
episode in two weeks, since wehave recently switched over to
our new format. So if you're newaround here, or if you haven't
been listening to the lastcouple of episodes, instead of
(00:48):
releasing new episodes everysingle week, we are slowing down
a little bit and spacing thingsout to every other week, so that
we can focus more on TheSatisfaction Space community.
Naomi Katz (01:01):
Yeah. The Satisfaction Space is our brand
new online community for folksto connect to others who are
also doing the work ofdisengaging from diet culture.
And it is officially open forenrollment to everyone.
Sadie Simpson (01:17):
Yay.
Naomi Katz (01:18):
So, I mean, what exactly does this mean? So, for
starters, if you enjoy listeningto new episodes of our podcast
every week, and you're maybemissing us on the off weeks, you
will be able to access bonuscontent within The Satisfaction
Space. In addition to the extraepisode content, we really
(01:38):
wanted to create a special spaceto continue building a community
outside of just the two of us.
Sadie Simpson (01:44):
Yes, and The Satisfaction Space is more than
just bonus content. It's also aplace where you can connect with
other people who are seeking tocultivate a more satisfying
life. Each month, we'll behosting live virtual hangouts,
which will consist of thingslike q&a sessions, mini
coaching, and more. There isalso a community message board
(02:07):
where you'll be able to meetwith other folks, share your
thoughts on our episodes, andeven ask some questions. So
we'll both be in the messageboards throughout the week to
respond to your questionsdirectly. But you'll also get
the benefit of receiving insightand responses from other
community members as well.
Naomi Katz (02:28):
Yeah, it's a pretty cool space, I think, honestly. A
few other things to note. Yes,there is a cost, but it's
minimal. It's $10 a month, andit can be cancelled at any time.
Really, as we were approachingour one year podcastiversary. We
talked a lot about how we couldmake the Satisfaction Factor
(02:48):
more community oriented, andmore sustainable for us, too. It
costs money and a lot of time toproduce a podcast, and if you
have found value in the episodeswe've released so far, joining
the satisfaction space is a verysimple way that you can support
this podcast and us whilegetting the benefits of bonus
(03:11):
content community and very lowcost mini coaching from us in
the monthly live hangouts.
Sadie Simpson (03:17):
Yeah, so if that sounds like something you're
interested in, head to the linkin the show notes to join or go
to the satisfaction space dot mn.co. Now
Naomi Katz (03:29):
onto this week's episode. Yay. So this week, I
got to speak with Vice SivaKumar in vice is a certified
strength coach, trauma informedyoga instructor and a fitness
industry leader in the TorontoCommunity, working to create
inclusive body neutral andaccessible Fitness Through one
(03:52):
on one group and corporateservices within her her online
fitness community fitness inplace. With her powerlifting
background and quick adaptationat the start of the pandemic she
was awarded can fit pros fitnessprofessional of the Year Award.
She advocates passionately forrepresentation in the industry
for South Asian women, but morebroadly aims to be a voice for
(04:15):
all people who may face barriersin the wellness space. We had an
amazing conversation about theimportance of safe inclusive
fitness spaces, body autonomy,representation and overcoming
impostor syndrome. So let's talkto Vice vice. Welcome. Thank you
so much for being here with ustoday. We're really excited to
(04:39):
talk to you about all theawesome stuff you've got going
on right now.
Vysh Sivakumaran (04:43):
Thanks again.
Thank you so much, Naomi, forhaving me and sad as well. Thank
you so much.
Naomi Katz (04:48):
Yeah, of course. So we're just gonna dive right in
with our first question, whichis a big one, but we kind of
designed it to be broad so thatwe get some interesting answers
from it. So what has your We'reexperienced with diet culture,
Ben.
Vysh Sivakumaran (05:03):
So yeah, that is that is a big one. And I
appreciate that, that heads upon that. So with diet culture, I
know growing up, I was quite Iguess isolated with my my
culture and my Sri Lankan,thummell culture and the the
rice and the curries. And it wasquite that every day. And there
(05:24):
was this mentality thateverything needs to be eaten
from the plate, like the lastgrain of grain of rice needs to
be eaten, right. So I don'tknow, necessarily that I
experienced that culture growingup, but there was some level of
restrictions on you know, what Ienjoyed and what I wanted to do,
or the however, I think strictlywhen I started CrossFit, that
was my real first. This was PostUniversity 2013, after after I
(05:51):
graduated, where there were likepaleo diet, this is that this is
the caveman, you need to dothis. And I was like, Okay, I
like the structure. There'ssomething telling me this is
what I need to do. I like beinga perfectionist. Let me go at
it. So I started the processthere. I think in the middle of
it, I really thought I was doingthe right thing. I thought this
(06:12):
was it. Like, I don't needanything else. But it wasn't
sustainable. Right. Like, again,I was still living with my
parents, they were still feedingme rice and curries. And there
wasn't, you know, it wasn't acaveman diet at home. So I would
start to feel bad when I didn'tget that, you know, that
perfection side of it. So yeah,that's a little bit of where I
(06:33):
started. But of course, myjourney continued onward from
there. So yeah,
Naomi Katz (06:38):
that really speaks to something so significant
within diet culture, which isthe erasure of cultural foods,
and like the demonization ofcultural foods to that, you
know, you grew up without reallyany sense of diet, culture, and
eating, you know, your culturalfoods, and just that being the
(06:59):
thing, and then you go out intoCrossFit. And suddenly, it's
like, oh, those foods are wrong,you shouldn't be eating those
foods, but you're still livingin your house, where those are
still the foods and so you justend up in this place of like,
guilt and shame and just feelingbad about eating the foods that,
you know, are, are relevant toyou and your cultural
(07:21):
background, and your family andall of those things. And that
disconnect is prettysignificant.
Vysh Sivakumaran (07:28):
Yeah, 100%, and you hit the nail on the
head. And I I'm honestly, aswe're talking, I feel like it's
a little bit of therapy there.
Yeah, I think you said it betterthan I even processed it in my
mind that it did feel like youknow, something was wrong with
my cultural foods. And Iprobably did give my mom you
know, who who was the mainperson who cooked a bit of, you
know, I guess, took it took itfor granted right on that. And,
(07:50):
you know, because I was stillliving at home. And it was
always there, day in day out,never shifted, you know, and
when it was stability andstructure there too, but I
didn't appreciate it as much asI do now.
Naomi Katz (08:03):
Yeah, yeah. So what changed for you? So you're, you
know, you're doing CrossFit andyou're in this like paleo era,
which is weird, because thePaleo era is a different thing.
Yeah, you're in your paleo era.
And, you know, experiencing thisdisconnect at home and stuff.
What How did things shift foryou? Or did you stay there for a
(08:26):
while?
Vysh Sivakumaran (08:28):
Yeah, that's a good question. So I mean, I
think, going into leaving toleaving the CrossFit world and
actually moving countries, toCanada, so originally, I was
born in Canada, but then movedto Ohio for about 18 years. So
there is where I spent, youknow, CrossFit, graduation, all
that and then moved back toToronto, and that shift into the
(08:52):
personal training world. Soshifted me in a lot of good
ways. It was something I wasreally passionate about, I was a
business analyst and now all ofa sudden, I'm I'm, I'm a fitness
coach. So I was learning a lot.
But then I entered into thiscorporate gym world, where if I
didn't look like a trainer, thenI wasn't a trainer, there was
some level of me just disconnectthere, my insecurities are
(09:15):
coming. So I did start to Ibelieve, start to really hone in
on wanting to be skinny andeating less carbs, and really
focusing in on no specific diet,I would say but just a low carb,
low carb diet that wasn't energywise was really depleting me
every day. And quite a bit ofthings happen. When you don't
(09:38):
have sleep, you don't haveenergy, your relationship starts
to suffer and everything elsestarts to sort of fall apart. So
there was a lot of again,question mark on, I guess,
giving myself the bestopportunity to succeed, but
because I had that paleoexperience, and now I'm at the
trainer in the training worldneeding to feel like I live
(09:58):
Look, the part really which isnot true, you can be a trainer
doesn't matter what you looklike there's so much value
beyond that, that that oneoffers as a professional. But
anyways, there was definitelysome toxic things that I was
dealing with for the next two tothree years post paleo as I was
becoming a trainer, I felt Iprobably looked the best, but I
(10:20):
was definitely the mostunhappiest as well.
Naomi Katz (10:25):
Yeah, yeah, it's so interesting, you know, there's
so much talk in the personaltraining world about health. But
all the standards within thepersonal training world, put you
in this incredibly unhealthyplace. Like a lot of times,
you're very sleep deprived,because of the hours that you
have to put in, especially as anew trainer. And then there's
(10:48):
all the like restriction andDiet Rules. And so they are also
not fueling yourself enough tosustain that. And it's really
antithetical to this wholeconcept of I'm here to help you
get healthier it is it
Vysh Sivakumaran (11:03):
is I mean, you know, I did prescribe to the
before and after pictures, and Iprescribed to, you know, making
sure I was telling folks, No,you shouldn't eat that you
shouldn't have canola oil,right? Like this, that's just
not the right oil to have withyour crude. And it's, it's all
these like, shoulds, and shouldnots and, and really not
necessarily allowing, you know,everything that I was taught, I
was just regurgitating andgiving, but I did it in the most
(11:26):
kind way, as that is my naturenot to be a super bootcamp
oriented trainer. But at the endof the day, it was still
restrictive. And I think thatprobably led to some of my
clients potentially feeding intotheir own diet culture habits,
too. So yeah, it's
Naomi Katz (11:43):
like, I wonder what would happen if, you know,
obviously, we, we don't wantpeople's bodies to be their
calling cards to be theirbusiness cards. But imagine if
we said that, but what we meantwas like the health of your
body, or like, the way you carefor yourself is, you know, the
example that you're sending, asopposed to just like your body
(12:04):
size.
Vysh Sivakumaran (12:05):
And that's exactly what I do now with my
clients and one on one on mygroup end. And fortunately,
because of the pandemic, a lotof clients, a lot of folks are
virtual, so I can definitelystill reach them, whether
they're in my area or not. Andreally push this whole narrative
that you know, you are more thanyour body, right you there is I
mean, there is a level of bodyacceptance or body love that we
(12:27):
can give to the body. But at theend of the day, your health is
much more than just youraesthetics of what your body
looks like. And unfortunately,that's what sells in the fitness
industry and what gets some ofus here, but I don't think it's
the end all be all of thatjourney.
Naomi Katz (12:43):
Yeah. So obviously, your approach to this has
changed a lot since those earlydays. How did you get out of
that early days of likerestriction and things like
that, to where you are now in aplace of body acceptance and
authentic health and all ofthose kinds of concepts?
Vysh Sivakumaran (13:05):
Yeah, good question. I mean, I honestly I
don't, I don't know if there wasone specific moment. For me, I
think there is just thisunderstanding that I, you know,
now being in the industry, as atrainer for the last six, seven
years, I'm noticing I can seethe changes and the differences
between training with thatrestrictive style and not even
(13:26):
understanding diet culture, andjust saying, yeah, do whatever
you need to do just hit thesemacros hit these hit these
specific targets for your carband your your fats and your
proteins. Right. And now I'mmore on the end is are you
getting? Do you know what thoseare? And are you getting all
everything you can get from yourfoods? And what, you know, are
you feeling sustained and ableto basically give yourself that
(13:50):
energy that you need for theday. So I think the shift for
within myself has definitelyshifted how I do train my
clients. And I want to say Ifeel like more through the
pandemic in the last two years,I've been a lot more
accommodating moreunderstanding, even just
understanding diet culture was abig shift for me and knowing
(14:10):
that you know what, there'sstats and studies that show
diets create a lot of potentialweight gain. And so what are we
doing here? How, why are wefeeding into something that
isn't working? And then again,also understanding the power
structures behind diet cultureand what they're trying to gain.
And I did learn a lot of thatfrom from you, Naomi, from your
core, so huge props to you forhelping me learn and understand.
(14:35):
Yeah, so it was it wasdefinitely it's still a process
for me. I'm not I'm not done. Ihave a lot to still learn. But I
think the more I do better formyself, and I learned that I can
of course do better for mycommunity.
Naomi Katz (14:48):
Yeah, I mean, that's the thing, right? We're never
actually done with this. There'salways more layers to peel back
but it sounds like the big shiftfor you has just been learning
this stuff. And like the thehigher level, like the
structures behind it, and howthat has shown up in your own
experiences and how that showsup for your clients and stuff
(15:09):
like that?
Vysh Sivakumaran (15:10):
Definitely, definitely, I think if I was to
add on the intersectionalitypiece of knowing that my own
identity is full of multipleidentities and understanding,
right, the the, you know, whitesupremacy, understanding
patriarchal value systems,understanding how that all plays
into my own self worth, and whyI may feed into diet culture
(15:31):
right now, I'm giving myselfgrace and compassion. Whereas
before I really blamed myselffor all the wrongdoings right,
so there was, there was a shiftthere, I think, early pandemic
that gave me and it was alreadybuilding up to it. But yeah,
that really helped me as well.
And diet, diet culture justfalls into all that too.
Naomi Katz (15:50):
Yeah, absolutely. I think that the the time of the
pandemic, and obviously, all theother things that happened
during the pandemic, you know,the peak of, you know, our
awareness around whitesupremacy, and you know, how
that was showing up and evenclassism, and capitalism, and
like, all these other systems,and I think over the pandemic,
(16:12):
really, like our awareness as asociety of these things kind of
peaked. And, like, you kind ofget to a point where it's like,
a diet culture is just upholdingthose things. And that's not
compatible with my values. Andso I have to look at how I'm
doing things.
Vysh Sivakumaran (16:29):
Exactly, exactly. Yeah. GEORGE Floyd's,
you know, murder. And then you'dlike you said, there was this
social justice movement, peak ofeverything. And, and for me, I
didn't want it to just be apeak, I wanted it to stick with
me. I wanted it to continue. Solearning and understanding and
kind of breaking down our oldvalues and understanding okay,
(16:49):
it is, it's not my fault thatthis is what this is what's
happened, I want to I want to dobetter, though, how can I shift?
How can I learn and keep moving?
Naomi Katz (16:56):
And you do, one of the big things that you focus on
is diversity and inclusion andaccessibility and fitness
spaces? Right? Correct. Can youkind of tell us more about what
you're doing in that space? Andhow you are sort of bringing
those values into your space?
Vysh Sivakumaran (17:15):
Sure. Yeah. So I mean, the thing that I saw a
lot with being at that corporategym for in person for five years
is that there isn't this levelof accessibility, right in terms
of I've had a lot of folks,maybe they were able to afford
the gym membership, but theyweren't able to afford the
training, right, there was justnot that there was no seeking,
(17:38):
they're seeking the professionalguidance, but couldn't couldn't
make the time or couldn't havethe financial resources. And so
seeing that seeing a lot offolks that had had to sort of,
they said no to me, or theywalked away because of those
concerns. I was like, Okay,well, now we're in the virtual
world virtual space pandemicshere. As soon as that started, I
felt this need for especiallyfor movement for our mental
(18:01):
health, all that alone wasenough of a reason to create
fitness in place with and I didthat actually with my partner as
well. So it was helpful that weboth were able to come from this
personal training world wherehe's more of a bodybuilder. I'm
more of a power lifter. And wecame from two different types of
fitness worlds, to then come inand say, Okay, let's provide
(18:24):
accessible fitness with everydayhousehold items. Let's move with
a broomstick, let's move withwith a backpack. Right? That was
one piece, there was a shortageof right of equipment. And so we
needed to improvise. And thenthe other piece was creating a
space that was radicallyinclusive, that allowed us to
(18:45):
really just show up as we areand not necessarily judge or
shame each other, or allow forany fat phobic comments or
transphobic comments, we arehere to really find a way to
even just be neutral, right? Wedon't we don't it's not even
about positivity, or we got to,you know, pull each other up in
(19:05):
these hard times. No, it's justwe're gonna come here with the
capacity that we have, and buildsome strength. Let's see what
happens. Right. So that wasanother piece of, of the
environment that we create. Andthat's why I think we are still
around even two years later.
We're not a trend anymore. We'rehere to stay through this
process. Yeah,
Naomi Katz (19:24):
I think oh, God, people, I think crave those
kinds of like inclusive spaces,even if they don't know like,
once you experience it, it justfeels like a safe place to be or
a place that maybe allows you toaccess bravery for yourself and
and things like that.
Vysh Sivakumaran (19:43):
Right. Right.
Yeah. And it's, I mean, I doidentify as an empath and even
as a highly sensitive person. SoI know that I've created these
spaces. With that in mind thatyou know, there are not a lot
of, you know, being out in thereal world. The world isn't made
for us in that way. If you're anempath. They're highly sensitive
person. And and it is there'sthere's facts that show studies
(20:03):
that show there's 20 to 30% offolks that are truly truly
sensitive that need a little bitmore and catering a little bit
more, you know, hey, like, whatare you feeling? How can we
shift gears in a way that'sconstructive for you. And
unfortunately, the fitnessindustry does not create that,
that level of detail andintuitive style of training. So
I'm just, again, I'm excitedthat I am in the position to be
(20:28):
able to create these spaces,whereas, you know, five, six
years ago, when I started mytraining, you know, I didn't
even know if I would still be atrainer. So I'm still but I
think I'm still here. And I, I'mglad, I'm glad it all happened
the way it did.
Naomi Katz (20:44):
Yeah. So I know that, you know, you're very
passionate about diversity andinclusion, about body autonomy
and things like that. And Iwould just, I would love to hear
more about where fitness spacesare still lacking in these
things and how you can kind ofcultivate and be an ally for
(21:05):
these things in in fitnessspaces. Blacking wise,
Vysh Sivakumaran (21:10):
I, again, this level of like, of level of
learning, right, like there wasthis D AI movement with a lot of
companies there, there is alevel of it being performative
versus impactful. And, and so I,at the end of the day, if we're
not continuously learning andmaking mistakes, there's always
going to be a gap. And that'sthe part that I think if we can
(21:32):
create, or at least honor thatpiece of, hey, I don't know
everything, but I can do betterfor my clients, because we are
we are servicing humans, right?
So for, you know, an example ofthat is knowing that, you know,
a person that is trans may entera different bathroom than they
than they think they should, andElise allowing for that space to
exist and saying, Hey, like, weunderstand that, and we're going
(21:56):
to make it work with you, Idon't necessarily have all the
answers, but I want to help youfeel comfortable in my space,
physical space, or virtualspace, I think there's a lot of
work again, that the fitnessindustry can do to be more
inclusive, it's as simple asthat knowing that there are non
binary bodies, knowing that noteveryone has even a gender that
(22:16):
they identify with. We do needto not just accommodate but be
inclusive with these folks. Solacking lies, I think learning
and education, we can do a lotmore there. And again, thankful
to your all yalsa podcasts andlike, again, learning is is key
for sure. So when it comes toyour second question, you know,
(22:38):
body autonomy, how do youcultivate that? How do you how
do you give that to yourself andeven within your communities? It
definitely starts with yourself,right? I I just went through my
own wedding this past June, andthere was definitely some diet
culture needs that was brewinginside me, I'm not the right
size. I'm not fitting into mydress, what do I do? Where do I
(22:59):
go. And so there, there's alwaysthese potential, you know,
challenges that we face that wecan say, Hey, I know better, I
know what I need to do, I don'tneed to shame myself into
fitting into this dress, I knowI need to eat, I'm going to make
sure I still give myself thefood I need to function and to
be able to exist and really beexcited about my day versus
(23:21):
fretting over over all of it. Soagain, it starts with yourself
and then education,understanding what you can do
and potentially hiring someoneif there isn't enough of your
own motivation or discipline tosort of learn more, you know,
definitely look into educatorslike Niomi, like Sadie who can
assist on that, because we can,we can learn a lot from from
(23:45):
each other.
Naomi Katz (23:47):
Awesome. Yeah. So I know that you very much focus on
creating these like safe traumainformed inclusive spaces. Do
you feel like having a spacelike that is important for
cultivating body autonomy that,like it's hard to access bodily
autonomy without access tospaces like that?
Vysh Sivakumaran (24:10):
Yeah, I think I mean, I would say yes, I think
when you don't have thefoundation of being trauma
informed and understanding theimpact of white supremacy of the
impacts of you know, potentiallybeing an able bodied, white sis,
individual, there are a lot ofgaps that I know that I've felt
(24:31):
in gym spaces where I'm like, Idon't I don't feel seen. I don't
feel accepted. I don't know if Ibelong, where do I go? I mean,
and then I'm, you know, spendingtime there consistently feeling
all these ways, but then tryingto get a workout. How does that
all fit into my experience?
Right? So it doesn't it reallydoesn't I think that's why it is
important to understandintersectionality and how our
(24:52):
identities do provide benefitsand they also provide
disadvantages and and how thatcombination is different for
everyone. And so from there,knowing these foundations that
allows us to sort of know, findour sense of self, and then
sense of self leads to a senseof body as well, with my trauma
(25:13):
informed background that reallycemented the understanding that
those who are traumatized, whichis quite a bit of us through the
pandemic, to be honest, a lot ofus have gone through something
at some point. And that initself, you know, we sometimes
don't get the opportunity tounderstand how our sense of self
(25:34):
is impacted by that trauma. So,in that respect, what I tried to
do with fitness and place, whatI tried to do with any fitness
space I'm in is that I, again,try to create or offer an
opportunity to come back to thesense of self, so you can honor
your body needs, and body goals,and whatever that whatever your
(25:56):
body autonomy is, yeah,
Naomi Katz (26:01):
oh my gosh, I love so much this linking of sense of
self to sense of body. And Iespecially love that you put it
where like sense of self comesfirst. And then leads into sense
of body, I think a lot of timespeople want to flip that, or
they make self and body the samething. And like really
(26:24):
recognizing that self isdifferent. It's bigger. And it's
maybe more important, like itcomes first, it prioritized over
a sense of body, and that youreally can't heal how you feel
about your body without healingthat sense of self. That's so
important.
Vysh Sivakumaran (26:43):
100% 100%, I know that I've gone through, I
think, to my mid 20s, without asense of self, and you know,
still working on my body, butnot really having a sense of
self. It just didn't connectthere. They are two different
things, right? Our body is aphysical thing where our sense
of self isn't tangible, it'sinternal, right? Well, how do we
(27:05):
navigate our own dialogue withinourselves? Are we treating
ourselves compassionatelythrough all the diet culture,
you know, talk and the fitnessindustry toxic? Oh, you need to
look a certain way to bevaluable in this world. So it is
two separate worlds that I dothink need to be addressed. And
like you said, the sense of selfpeace in it in my trauma
(27:27):
informed course that I took withthe Justice Research Institute
in Boston, that the coursereally cemented that when one is
going undergoing trauma, or hassome level of trauma dynamics in
their life, the the sense ofself is lost or never created.
And so that also shifts thewhole piece that if it was never
(27:47):
created, how do you get back toit? Well, then we start to allow
the body to, to make decisionsto make choices. So it does go
back and forth between the bodyand between that sense of self,
especially for one that hasn'thad the opportunity to get that
sense of self.
Naomi Katz (28:02):
Yeah, there's that reciprocity, it's because the
physical reality of our bodiesis also going to really impact
our ability to get that sense ofself. So if like you were
talking about how, like,sometimes you felt like you
didn't belong in these spaces,and like how that like that you
didn't see yourself in thosespaces. And that that kind of
(28:23):
hindered your ability to accessthat sense of self for a little
while, too.
Vysh Sivakumaran (28:27):
Exactly.
Exactly. Just validating. It'svery validating when you know,
your body deserves and needsthings just as much as everyone
else does.
Naomi Katz (28:35):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And finding that
sense of self allows you torecognize that like, even if you
feel like your body doesn'tbelong, your self still deserves
these things. Yeah,
Vysh Sivakumaran (28:47):
yes. And honestly, if I didn't pick up
that weight in CrossFit times,when I back in the day, if I
didn't, like learn that my bodywas strong, and that I didn't
you know, that I didn't needvalidation from anyone else. I
just needed my own. It startedit really started there, to be
honest, and then understandingthe words behind it came in the,
(29:08):
in the 2020 user a little bitbefore that as well with my
psychotherapist with constantlytrying to understand how can I,
you know, give my sense of selfa belonging feel every day
versus just when I pick up thosewaves? So it's been a journey.
Naomi Katz (29:23):
Yeah, absolutely.
Well, and at this point, in yourjourney, you are like, there's
there's a lot of signs that youdo belong in the space these
days, right. So I helped me if Imissed anything, but you just
one can fit pro fitnessprofessionals a year. Right. And
Forbes, the culture. You're amember of that, right? Correct.
(29:45):
Yes. And these are some prettybig things. Is there anything I
missed?
Vysh Sivakumaran (29:51):
No, no, those are the most recent, I think,
yeah,
Naomi Katz (29:55):
yeah. So you know, can you talk a little bit about
what it's been like to To be apart of these spaces, and what
that sort of meant in terms ofmaybe showing other people that
they belong in these spaces.
Vysh Sivakumaran (30:09):
Yeah, yeah. So I mean, when I, when I won the
fifth special the Year award, Ireally didn't think I was going
to win, I did call out thefitness industry, in my winning
video of saying that, that Ididn't belong, that the industry
was dominated by fit enablewhite folks and that, you know,
I'm going to create space, Idon't if there isn't a spot for
(30:30):
me at the table, let me at leastcreate the space for myself and
others. I know for a fact, a lotof other industries lack this
representation of, you know, youname it, right curvy person,
dark skinned person, transperson, there's, there's so many
like big bodied person, there'sjust so many different types of
models that we don't necessarilyhave or representation levels
(30:54):
that we have. So for me, therewas just this connection again,
understanding, hey, the worldisn't made for me, it isn't made
for all of us equally. Let thenif that's the case, then what do
we do to now help the youngergenerations ourselves to then
take up space or create spacefor ourselves? So when I put
(31:14):
that video together and reallytook my shot, or, you know, what
is the same? Shoot your shot?
Yeah, when I when I did that,that was really, that was really
me saying, like, you know what,I'm not going to stay silent
here anymore. However, afterwinning the award, there was a
lot of like, okay, well, I wantit what does this mean? Right? I
take up space, how do I continueto take up space? You know, and
(31:36):
those are question marks, I'mstill figuring out it's not one
and done. And we're here. I, youknow, I have to constantly work
towards, again, fostering mysense of self, my sense of
belonging, and then continuingto say, hey, I want to I want to
create a better life for myselfand my future generations of
whoever kids or nieces andnephews, and I want to say,
(31:59):
yeah, let me let me try let medo my best to do that. Yeah.
Naomi Katz (32:05):
You just spoke right at the canfitpro conference on
diversity and on body autonomy,and, and on representation and
stuff like that. And that'sdefinitely going a long way
towards opening up these spacesand taking up those spaces.
That's pretty amazing.
Vysh Sivakumaran (32:26):
Thank you. No, I mean, yeah, that and that was,
again, wasn't done by myself wassuper again, finding allies,
like yourself, finding allies,other women of color, who are in
the industry who want to speakon these matters. We're all
we're there. There's so many ofus out there. We're just now
trying to connect and say, Hey,let's do better for for the
industry. So I'm, again, supergrateful to know folks like
(32:47):
Rena, like Sam, who did thecanfitpro panels with me and
helped me also learn a lot too.
And those process
Naomi Katz (32:56):
Yes. On your Instagram recently, you talked
about how experiencing all thissuccess within the fitness
industry has brought up somefeelings of impostor syndrome
for you. And then also aboutkind of some analysis of
impostor syndrome that you havebeen doing and how that's been
helping you move past it. And Ithought that was so so powerful.
(33:19):
And I'm wondering if you cantell us a little bit more about
how that's playing out for youand what you've been learning
around that?
Vysh Sivakumaran (33:25):
Yeah, of course, of course. So, in case
you didn't see that Instagrampost, it was it was actually
acknowledging that impostorsyndrome was created without
actually the context of peopleof color, the context of systems
of power structures behind it,right. So when we, when we think
of imposter syndrome, if you'renot familiar with that term, it
(33:47):
is feeling like an imposter,right? And thinking that, you
know, you're an expert in thefield, but but at the same time,
feeling like you're a completesham as well, at the same time.
A lot of folks you know, we'vewe've learned like Maya Angelou,
Albert Einstein, and a lot offolks have had this now
understanding from like I said,from that point of view of okay,
(34:08):
this was created without peopleof color mind without the
marginalized folks in mind. NowI'm like, let's let's actually
dissect this, there's a greatarticle like I referenced it in
that in that post by the HarvardBusiness Review, stating how it
is more about these powerstructures, white supremacy,
patriarchal capitalism, diet,culture, all of this is all
(34:32):
coming together to sort of giveus this mold of not feeling
secure, potentially perpetuatethis level of insecurities and
and feed off of it right. Sowhen we, when we know these
contexts, the context of thegreater world that we live in
there for me at least that hasprovided this rewiring every day
(34:53):
because it is a consistent everyday where I sometimes do feed
into it and then other days, I'mjust like, Nope, I need to do
better for myself and for mycommunity, at the end of the
day, I think imposter syndrome,what can we do about it, we can
work through it, it's notsomething that's going to just
completely go away, if that'swhat you identify with, or if
you're just feeling insecure,and you're not sure why
(35:15):
understanding these biggersystems of power structures of
the world that we live in, itmakes a huge difference in
navigating it much morecompassionately.
Naomi Katz (35:24):
Yeah, oh my gosh, that's so it's so important. And
I'm just gonna say powerfulagain, because I think a lot of
people, especially when theystart to see success in a field
that is long been dominated bypeople who don't look like them,
you get that really intensefeeling of like, I don't deserve
(35:44):
to be here, like I shouldn't bethis successful, or whatever,
and being able to step away fromthat and look at that bigger
picture of like, what systemsare telling me that? And do I
buy into those systems? Or do Inot buy into those systems?
Right is huge. And I you know, Ialso love that you acknowledge
(36:06):
that you're still that doesn'tmean that you don't have the
feelings anymore, it just meansthat you have the tools to step
back and like coach yourselfthrough it and offer yourself
compassion for it and stuff likethat.
Vysh Sivakumaran (36:19):
100% And of course, surrounding yourself
with support systems that alsoget it because it it, I
definitely fall my fall into somuch some traps that where I'm
like, Why Why didn't that workout? Where we know, what could I
have done better? And it's justlike, hey, maybe it's not you,
maybe it is something biggerthat you can't control. So we
got to let you know, let go andaccept and sort of move into the
(36:40):
next next chapter of what weneed to get done. The
acknowledgement
Naomi Katz (36:44):
of how important community is within that is
huge. Yeah.
Vysh Sivakumaran (36:48):
Yeah, I wouldn't be here without my
community. 100%.
Naomi Katz (36:51):
So how can people work with you at fitness in
place?
Vysh Sivakumaran (36:56):
Yeah, that's such a that's a good question.
So when in terms of the theservices I offer and and and the
community offers, we have a oneon one group and corporate
section. So one on one, most ofmost of it is virtual, though I
do offer in person as well herein Toronto. But that area of my
(37:19):
training is something I truly dolove allowing folks to sort of
understand and have thatpersonal route to regaining
their sense of self andregaining their body, the group
size is quite accessible. It issomething that we do, we've been
doing since the pandemic hasstarted and continues to be a
radically inclusive space withsliding scale memberships, and
(37:41):
the ability to move as you canand with the capacity that you
have. And then corporate aswell, that is an another service
that can be used if there'ssomething that you feel like
your business can utilize it.
It's something that we have donelast year with a local company
here in Toronto and allowed themto sort of have a break in their
day and get some movement in. Itcan be quite a great source of
(38:03):
energy for folks to movetogether. Outside of that just
in person gym spaces. I alsocreate some classes and offers
tailored classes to what gymsare looking for, with a trauma
informed background. So yeah,just continuing to expand and
see what else is out there. Butyeah, those are the three areas
main three areas. Yeah.
Naomi Katz (38:26):
So where can people find you if they want to learn
more? Yeah,
Vysh Sivakumaran (38:30):
so website wise, WW dot fitness and
place.net. That's our website.
In terms of Instagram, it'sfitness underscore in underscore
place. You could find me on thator on my personal account, which
is where I also post a lot offitness and general motivation
and even hardships as well. Thatwould be a by vy, underscore,
(38:52):
she underscore lifts, Facebook,a lot of stuff is on there too.
If you if you type in fitness inplace, you'll find us there too.
Naomi Katz (39:02):
Awesome. I'm glad that you are all you have also
not entirely given up onFacebook just like me.
Vysh Sivakumaran (39:09):
Know, it's It's tough. It's tough. I know.
But it's still there. I don'tknow if it'll ever go away.
Yeah,
Naomi Katz (39:17):
yeah. Excellent.
Well, Vijay, it has been amazingtalking to you. You are just
doing such wonderful things inthe world. And I just I can't
wait to see what comes next foryou and and I hope that our
listeners reach out and get tobecome a part of your amazing
virtual community too.
Vysh Sivakumaran (39:39):
Yeah, thank you so much for having me. Thank
you city. Thank you know me forhaving me on this opportunity to
share what we do and and thankyou both for creating a better
safer space for a lot of folksto to exist in.
Naomi Katz (39:51):
Thanks again to Vice Eva Kumaran for that amazing
conversation. We definitely alllearned a ton from that.
Sadie Simpson (39:58):
Oh my gosh, me You too, especially since I
wasn't able to be there for theinterview, that was such a great
podcast. And just a quickreminder, if you are interested
in joining our podcast communitythe satisfaction space, be sure
to visit the link in our shownotes where you can get all the
information and sign up. And ifyou would like to support us in
(40:22):
other ways you can visit us onInstagram we are at satisfaction
factor pod. And we alwaysappreciate positive ratings and
reviews in Apple podcasts,Spotify or any other place that
allows you to leave a rating andreview. That's it for us this
week. We'll
Naomi Katz (40:41):
catch you next time.
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