March 11, 2024 • 30 mins
On today's episode, trailblazing founders of Makeshift, Caitlin Marshall and Lizzie Rose share how creativity can have a profound impact on your mental well-being.
From crafting community workshops to pioneering trauma-informed creative programs, Caitlin and Lizzie have learned that creativity can be a crucial element in the toolkit for mental health recovery. They believe that everyone has the capacity to draw on their inner artist for healing and resilience, and in their new book, Creative First Aid, offer 'creativity on prescription' as an essential part of health care.
Caitlin and Lizzie will inspire you to integrate creativity into your daily routines, much like a self-care regimen, to combat the inevitable stressors of life. From the curative power of ocean swims to the revitalising role of live music, this episode is a testament to the joy and stability that creativity infuses into our lives, even in times of chaos.
If you're ready to foster a resilient mindset and explore how Makeshift's philosophy and resources can enhance your mental wellness journey, dive into the therapeutic revelations shared in this not-to-be-missed conversation.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
You're listening to the Secrets of Successful
Business podcast, your go-tosource for business tips, tricks
and proven strategies that willhelp you create a streamlined
and profitable business.
We chat to the best minds inbusiness about their journey.
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(00:25):
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Speaker 3 (00:29):
you going to make Just because?
Speaker 4 (00:31):
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Speaker 1 (00:33):
It's really important to remember that it's a long
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(00:57):
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Now here's your host, businesscoach and content creator,
justine McLean from FawcayCreative.
Speaker 4 (01:13):
Hello and thanks for joining me on the podcast today.
In case we haven't met, I'mJustine, a small business owner
on a mission to uncover andshare the secrets of creating
and running a profitable,sustainable and successful
business.
I've been in business for over20 years now and I get to use
all that I've learned along theway to help other women in
business reduce the overwhelm,gain visibility around their
(01:37):
numbers, charge what they'reworth and make more money.
It's about designing a life youlove that fits into your
definition of success.
So if I can help you create theprofitable business you deserve
, please reach out Now withoutfurther ado.
Let's dive into today's episode.
(01:58):
Being creative is good for us.
It lowers our stress hormones,it calms our nervous system and
can get us into a flow state.
And while innate creativity ispart of being human, many of us
have been told from a very youngage that we're not good at art,
or definitely not creative, soit's something we tend not to
(02:21):
pursue.
But with mental healthchallenges on the rise and
support systems stretched to thelimit, something's got to give,
and so I'm happy to welcometoday's guests, caitlin Marshall
and Lizzie Rose, to share howwe can use creativity as first
aid to improve our mental healthand wellbeing and reduce stress
(02:41):
too.
Caitlin and Lizzie are thefounders of makeshift, an
award-winning agency thatprovides trauma, informed
creativity and mental healthprograms for communities,
workplaces and groups throughoutAustralia.
Since 2013, they've worked withthousands of people, including
first responders, communitiesaffected by bushfires and floods
(03:01):
, and they've worked with someof Australia's biggest corporate
clients as well.
So, without further ado, I'dlike to welcome Caitlin and
Lizzie.
Hi, caitlin and Lizzie, welcometo the podcast.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
Thanks so much for having us, Justine.
Speaker 4 (03:17):
It's great to have you here today and to talk about
one of my favourite subjects,which is creativity, because I
think so many of us think thatwe're not born with a single
creative bone in our body, andso is really a breath of fresh
air, I think, for people who arelooking for different ways or
(03:37):
an alternative to help withtheir mental health and their
stress levels.
But before I dive into that,can you share a little bit about
your business, makeshift, andwhat inspired you to write
Creative First Aid?
Speaker 2 (03:55):
Sure so makeshift.
We founded the organisationabout a decade ago, under a
different name actually, and wehad a different focus, which was
about creating a platform inthe community for people to
exchange skills, creative skills, skills in DIY and
sustainability.
And so for years we ranhundreds and hundreds of
(04:19):
workshops where communitymembers had the opportunity to
teach and other people in thecommunity had a chance to come
and learn.
And over time we kept hearingfrom people that this was not
only great in learning how tocook from scratch or how to make
you know how to sew or how tofix your bike, but also it was
(04:41):
having this impact on people'swellbeing and sense of
connection to the community,which we know social connection
is a really important part ofmental wellbeing.
And then what happened was thatdoctors and psychologists and
allied health professionals weregetting in touch and saying,
hey, we're referring people toyour classes and we really,
(05:02):
given that our background is andtraining is in social work and
Lizzie's in communitydevelopment, sustainability
education we kind of took thatreally seriously and wanted to
push that further and started apilot program, an eight week
program that we designed to workwith people mostly with PTSD
and who were unable to work andthat was called creativity on
(05:26):
prescription, which took peoplethrough a journey of exploring a
different creative practicewith a different artist each
week, alongside learning abouthow our nervous system works and
how to support your wellbeing.
We hear that all the time, youknow, we've got to support our
wellbeing, we've got to lookafter our mental health, but
actually we're not really taughta lot of practical information
(05:48):
about how to do that.
So we started that.
The pandemic arrived andsuddenly being a face to face
grassroots workshop organizationmeant we had to Change pretty
quickly and went online, which alot of people did, and that
really opened up the doors to beable to work with people all
over the country.
(06:08):
And since then we've runhundreds of programs and courses
using this approach of what wecall creative first aid In
different ways, and also lots ofwork in workplaces as well,
which has been really wonderful.
Speaker 4 (06:24):
Were you surprised at that link between creativity
and how it helped mental health?
Because I'm sure when youstarted your program, or when
you started what is nowmakeshift, you probably didn't
go into it with a mission ofproviding that mental health
support.
Speaker 3 (06:43):
No, it's kind of the opposite.
It wasn't a surprise to us.
We were cultivating a designand development of our programs
with that intention.
We just didn't lead with theforefront, we didn't put it out
the same.
This is a mental health program, but absolutely the
undercurrent of the work thatwe've done in community
development from the start hasbeen about bringing together
(07:05):
people with a shared interest tothen explore these interests to
resolve potential problems.
So we had a real intentionaldesign and it's when the
psychologists and GPs in ourcommunity started picking it up
and the participants startedfeeding back to us that it was
having an impact on their mentalwell-being that we really
(07:25):
enlarged the work that we do andwent there and formed makeshift
as it is today.
Speaker 4 (07:31):
And so what have you discovered as the link, I guess,
between mental health, thatwell-being and creativity?
Like, where did you first seethose sort of changes, or those
aha moments, or what changes didyou start to see that you
thought that we know, there'sthis link, we're now getting
(07:52):
approved.
Speaker 2 (07:53):
Well, we definitely saw it in our work.
I mean, I've seen it.
I've worked in social work, inmental health and kind of crisis
, sexual assault support as ayoung social worker and I saw it
.
Then I was using creativepractice as a tool in that work
and what you witness is thatpeople, creativity or engaging
in creative practice givespeople a little space to just
(08:17):
sit outside of their identityfor a moment.
You kind of get to try on adifferent version of yourself.
It creates space for curiosityand curiosity leads us to new
ways of thinking and often whatgets in the way when we're
really kind of overwhelmed withanxiety or depression is some
really rigid thinking that cankind of trap.
(08:38):
So it just is this kind ofgateway to.
Ultimately, I think that toreally work through challenging
mental health tricky timesrequires creative thinking.
We have to kind of find newways through, and so practicing
creativity kind of gives us thepractice of thinking in a
(09:01):
different way.
When we do something creative,even if we've never done it
before, you've got to, you know,try something new, experiment,
take a risk, be prepared tomaybe to go a bit wonky, not be
sure how it's going to turn out,and so that's an amazing
practice.
Space for doing that in ourlives.
Speaker 4 (09:25):
Yeah, it's so interesting, isn't it?
Because when I grew up, my mumhad some pretty severe mental
health issues and I reallywasn't aware of them.
I wasn't, I mean, obviously Iknew that something wasn't right
, but at that age and at thattime it was not something that
was in the picture, certainlynot in the news, not talked
(09:46):
about, and I couldn't really putmy finger on it.
And the prescription was alwaystablets, you know, to take this
.
At that stage it was nevergoing to see someone unless
there was going to be, you know,quite an invasive intervention.
I suppose you know that moretraditional approach has
obviously changed a lot over theyears and certainly it's
(10:08):
probably not as archaic in 2024as it was, you know, way back in
the sort of late 70s, early 80s.
But you know, I just wonderwhat the benefits are of if
someone is listening to this andthey're thinking, yeah, look, I
really feel like I've got theseissues, maybe I have pursued
(10:29):
this more traditional route ofan approach to help with mental
health.
How can they transition, Isuppose?
Or how can they start toprescribe that creativity for
themselves or talk to aprofessional about having that
option as an alternative to thatmore traditional medicine?
Speaker 3 (10:53):
I think it begins with, I guess, agency and the
realization that as human beingswe're all creative, so we kind
of already do have a bunch ofbuilt-in tools that we can lean
upon.
So you know, one of the firststeps that we work with our
participants in our programs isjust the gentle reminder that
you know we do have agency overour mental health every day and
(11:16):
we can apply a practice ofcreativity that can gently
interact with our nervous systemand help us shift our mood.
It's not a quick fix and it'snot at all everything and it
sits alongside, you know,therapy and sometimes medication
.
But I think the beginning steps, can you know, we lay it out in
our book around the methodologyof creative first aid, and then
(11:38):
the book ends with 50prescriptions at the end, which
are just everyday prescriptionsthat anybody can do with minimal
materials.
So there is creativity justwaiting to be engaged with or
embraced.
So it's.
I think it begins with just abit of curiosity and dialing up
the curiosity to what issomething that I might be able
(11:59):
to do for myself and that looksa little different to the, you
know, existing medical model oftreatment for mental health.
Speaker 4 (12:04):
Yeah, and I love your prescriptions, by the way,
because I was expecting them allto be pick up a paintbrush and
whatever.
But there's, you know, so manydifferent options how to do a
nature walk and so on.
And it's interesting that yousay that because I think for so
many of us, we think we're notcreative.
I am, I feel like I am quitecreative.
I'm used to painting really bigpictures.
(12:25):
But last year was a particularlystressful year for me and I
found that when I went to go andbe creative, I was completely
paralyzed by the idea that I hadto try and paint this big thing
.
It just was adding anotherstress.
So my husband kindly bought mea paint by numbers for Christmas
and I just found that sittingthere in this mindless activity
(12:47):
of looking for a number andfinding the color that matched
the number was exactly what Ineeded to get me out of my head.
So for anyone listening whowould like to, you know, pursue
a creative, you know task ratherthan taking a walk in nature,
for example.
But they think, oh, I'm notcreative, what would you say to
people to sort of overcome thatbarrier to entry that they might
(13:10):
be thinking exists?
Speaker 2 (13:13):
Yeah, firstly, I would say that it's so common.
So many people have that ideaabout themselves that they're
not creative.
And we, when we dig into that,we've met thousands of those
people.
It's often come from somemessage quite early in life that
either from a teacher or aparent or a friend or a sibling,
that is so profoundly formativein in kind of developing your
(13:39):
idea about whether you'recreative or not.
And so people if they get thatidea early oh you're not good at
this, then they kind of closethe door on that for their life.
And the truth is and we kind oftry to lay this out in the book
with evidence and research isthat all humans have innate
creativity.
We are born with it hardwiredinto us and in fact there's a
(14:02):
lot of ways that we can becreative.
It's not just about making art,and so it's kind of like a
muscle that can lie dormant.
It's there whether we use it ornot, and actually for the
purpose of supporting ournervous system and our
well-being, which is kind of theplace that we're talking about
how it can be applied for ourmental health.
We don't actually need to bethat good at it for it to be
(14:25):
good for us.
It's actually like you weresaying, the paint by numbers,
just the act of, you know,filling out with colour over and
over again.
It's the sensory process thathappens by that action that
actually helps to regulate ournervous system.
Immediately it starts tointeract with our brain
chemistry.
So that tells us that doingthese things is good for us.
(14:49):
And if you want to start withthe paint by numbers, or you
know those colouring in booksthat exploded a few years ago,
you know, I think that was thisbeautiful moment of people
remembering this actually feelsgood, it relaxes us and you
don't have to have anyparticular skill.
And of course it's part of whywe have written this book is
(15:10):
because creativity is so closedoff to so many people, and I
think that's a real tragedy.
You know we all have a right toexpress our creativity and
humans have used creativeexpression in every culture
around the world, in allrecorded human history.
So to have so many people justsay I can't do that, that's not
(15:33):
for me.
I'm closing that door.
It means we're closing off thiswhole free, reliable, innate
resource that every singleperson has.
So now I say start small, startwith the paint by numbers,
start with something really,really gentle and easy and not
over ambitious, to just start toflex that little muscle.
Speaker 4 (15:55):
But, as you say, like colouring in I forgot about
those colouring in books thatwere so popular, still around
everywhere.
So colouring in or writing astory or lots of things, but you
have so many prescriptions inyour book, so it doesn't need to
be that kind of that definitionof creativity that we're all
thinking about.
When I think about the worldnow, I mean there's just so much
(16:17):
going on and you know you don'teven really need to look far
afield for the stresses.
Right, it could be that iPhonein your hand with social media
on it.
It could be something that'sgoing on in your family or your
friendship group or at work, or,you know, a financial stress.
There just seems to be so muchstress and so much overwhelm
(16:39):
that it's almost like, as acommunity at large, we're all
headed to some sort of burnout,but we're just not even seeing
the symptoms now.
We just accept that this ispart of a living in this day and
age and we kind of have to justkeep soldiering on.
And I think this isparticularly true of women and
(17:02):
business women, who are a lot ofour listeners.
So what are some of the signsto look out for that?
You know, maybe the stress thatwe're experiencing we just
shouldn't put off to being OK,it's just another day in 2024.
And that maybe we should havethat intervention with ourselves
to practice that self care andperhaps, you know, jump into a
(17:26):
creative activity.
Speaker 3 (17:29):
I mean, I think that the I think the signs definitely
are already well and truly outthere that you know as a kind of
population at large, people arestruggling with burnout and
overwhelm and anxiety, withoverconsumption and the
productivity and rate of life.
So some of the really obvioussigns are just being in that you
(17:49):
know, kind of monkey mind andreally busy mind state and on
this treadmill of keeping goingand trudging on and trudging on
until we just keep going andthen we just can't anymore.
So our prescriptions aredesigned as really gentle
interventions that can be donedaily.
Some of them only take two tofive minutes and self care is
(18:09):
something that gets bandedaround a lot at the moment and
it's absolutely is necessarythat we prioritize self care and
some of the prescriptions arejust based around this idea that
they are hoped to become habitsso that you know, no matter
what state you're in of busynessin your life, there's there's
probably never going to be theright time to sit down and stop
(18:32):
and do creativity.
So we really just urge peopleto just start with it as as
though it's like brushing yourteeth.
It's something that'snon-negotiable, that you're
doing every day because it'stending to your nervous system
and it's tending to your mentalhealth, doesn't matter where you
are on the sliding spectrum ofwell being, something that, as
we all have physical health andwe all have mental health, so
(18:53):
something that we all do need tolook after every day, and
creativity is just a playful,gentle, really effective way to
do that.
Speaker 4 (19:02):
Yeah, so.
So maybe you know, as you say,no matter where you are on the
scale and no matter whether youare noticing those physical
symptoms or not, just make thatdecision to think OK, for five,
10, 15 minutes every day as astart, whether it's the start of
the day, the end of the day.
I'm just going to find thattiny bit of me time, that white
(19:23):
space, and see if I can dosomething that's creative.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:27):
And I think too, in our book we talk, you know, we
make a big link between the gapin general literacy around
mental health is about ournervous system and learning to
notice and listen to the cuesthat our nervous system is
telling us, which are often thecues that we need something.
So when we get into that reallyactivated overwhelm kind of 20
(19:50):
thoughts in our mind and wecan't sleep, that's a very clear
sign Our nervous system iswaving at us saying I need
something.
And just like our body gives usmessages every day, like hunger
first, you know I'm cold, I needa jumper, and we tend to answer
those calls for physical needs,like hunger and thirst, but
(20:12):
we're not really given the toolsto understand signs that
they're being met.
And so that's what we kind oflay out in the book learning to
notice those signs and they'redifferent for every person,
there's often patterns to thatand then the prescriptions are a
way to start to apply a littlestrategy to offset some of those
(20:33):
signs and return us into aplace where our nervous system
is regulated, we are able tofollow through with, you know,
making decisions for our health,for our business, for our
family, from a place of logic,rational thinking, being able to
be compassionate, which is hardto do when we're really kind of
out of our heads, you know,overwhelmed, panicked, or even
(20:55):
just numb and completelyexhausted.
Speaker 4 (20:58):
And there could be, I guess, more subtle signs as
well.
You know, you don't have to bein that state where you're sort
of waking up at night or havingthose 20 thoughts in your head,
and so I think it's important,as you say, to kind of try and
build it in, make it a dailypractice, make it a gift that
you give to yourself everysingle day.
But I think it's also importantto say that if you are in that
(21:18):
position where you're feelingcompletely overwhelmed and like
you're unable to cope, then it'sdefinitely essential to seek
professional help.
Speaker 3 (21:28):
Oh yeah, absolutely, absolutely yeah.
This is not like we said.
You know, it's not a medicalintervention that solves, you
know, extreme mental healthproblems.
It's a maintenance forwell-being and it does also work
in, you know, trauma recovery.
It's something that we can doevery day and sits alongside
other interventions and othertherapeutic care.
Speaker 4 (21:50):
And both of you have worked for a long time in this
field and you've also beeninvolved in some high stress
situations.
The bushfires, the floods arethe more recent ones.
So what brings each of you thatdelight or and joy every day?
What do you each do for yourmental health and creativity?
Speaker 3 (22:14):
Yeah, I'm fortunate enough to live by the coast down
here in South Asinian,wollongong, where makeshift is
based, and so the ocean is mygo-to salve.
Every day A dipper day is kindof how I phrase it I do laps in
our local sea pool or I justdive in at the ocean and that
really keeps me grounded andkeeps clears my head and
(22:37):
listening.
Speaker 4 (22:38):
You and I are on the same planet.
Here, a dipper day keeps thedoctor away.
Speaker 2 (22:47):
Yeah, and I think too , we've been fortunate enough
but also worked very hard in ourbusiness to weave this kind of
way of working and living intohow we work as well.
So sometimes you know, havingmeetings outside or going for a
walk, or actually in the middleof the day, we'll go, let's go
(23:08):
and have a swim, and wouldn't itbe great if everyone can work
that way, and I know that that'snot necessarily the case for a
lot of people.
But, yeah, I certainly findhaving a garden, having animals
I do lots of drawing and justmake sure there's notebooks and
things to doodle on almost inevery room of my house and live
(23:31):
music for me is something thatjust if I can regularly get some
kind of live music, it'sabsolutely a game changer in
helping me feel connected toother people, but also that big
dose of absolute joy, yeah.
Speaker 4 (23:45):
Yeah, so there's, so, yeah, there's lots of ways and
50 ways in your fabulous book,creative first aid, which, by
the way, is available now at allgood bookstores.
So just putting on a differenthat for a minute when you think
about you know, makeshift inyour business and what that has
been over the last decade.
(24:06):
What would you say is yoursecret, or secrets, of running a
successful business?
Speaker 3 (24:11):
Well, I mean it definitely.
You know it requires putting ona different hat but at the same
time it doesn't, because of thesecret for us for our success
is to have integrated creativityinto our everything we do.
So you know we obviouslyrunning a small business has a
whole lot of organization andadmin and a lot of really boring
(24:32):
stuff that goes around with it.
But we inject play into most ofwhat we do to keep ourselves
grounded and, you know, not takeourselves too seriously.
And it also it's where the Iwant if we allow a bit of create
creative practice before wedesign or develop a program or
have, you know, a set agendameeting that we do every week.
(24:54):
It allows for ideas to form andit allows for us the free
thinking and the mind wandering,so it enhances our business.
So, yeah, it comes back tofirst aid.
Speaker 2 (25:05):
Yeah, interesting, and I think it also helps to
live with the uncertainty.
You know how you're running abusiness running a small
business, in particularly in thelast five years.
You can't necessarily plan thenext five years with any
certainty, and so sitting with alot of uncertainty is just part
(25:26):
of that, and that can be reallyuncomfortable, it can be
stressful, and so we have toapply the framework that we
write about in our book ofstaying curious, you know,
having lots of compassion, forwe're doing our best and
sometimes things don't always gothe way we wanted them to or
hoped they would.
There's things out there wecan't control, like when we're
(25:48):
not allowed to meet in real life, and I know we've passed that
now.
Speaker 4 (25:51):
But, yeah, I think that's been a big part of how
we've stayed the force andstayed focused to yeah, so when
you encounter those moments,it's about going back to the
principles that you've writtenabout and the things that you
know in that creative first daythe reason you started your
(26:11):
business is.
Is that what you mean?
Speaker 2 (26:13):
Yeah, that's right.
And just as long as we're stillworking to our values and our
purpose and really focused onwhat is our work doing to have
this social impact which isreally at the heart of what we
want to be doing, then you know,whatever kind of waves we're
bobbing around on, that wedidn't expect, we can still feel
(26:35):
like we're.
On course, you think we're notquite sure where we're going to
land.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 4 (26:41):
Yeah, I think that's such good advice for, you know,
anyone who's listening,particularly now, who's feeling
a little bit uncertain aboutwhere they're going, and you
know, when you think back isthere something that you know
now that you wish you'd knownthen and maybe employed earlier
In business.
Speaker 2 (26:58):
Oh gosh.
Yes, I think you know there's alot of great advice in business
coaching and mentoring aboutgetting your foundation really
solid from the beginning, and alot of that is the kind of
boring stuff you know, gettingreally good financial processes,
having really clear documentswritten out, making sure that,
(27:23):
yeah, all those kind of nuts andbolts of your business are
sorted and so you can get onwith the business of doing what
you're actually there to do andyeah that's.
We've learned that a milliontimes, how important that is,
and I reminded of how importantthat is.
Speaker 4 (27:42):
Yeah particularly when you're starting out Amazing
.
Hey, Ellen and Lizzie, thankyou so much for being on the
podcast today.
I know that everybody listeningneeds that dose of creativity
in their life and, as I said,your book Creative First Aid is
available now at all goodbookstores.
But what's the best way forlisteners to connect with you if
(28:04):
they want to sort of takethings a step further?
Speaker 3 (28:07):
They can find a lot of information about our
organization, our programs, onour website, makeshiftorgau, and
they can follow us on socialmedia, makeshiftcreativefirstaid
.
No makeshift underscore.
That's all right, it's amouthful that makeshift
underscore creativefirstaid.
Speaker 2 (28:26):
Yeah, yeah, I'm sure if you just type makeshift into
Instagram.
Speaker 4 (28:37):
Surely it's going to come up and look for yeah look
for Caitlin and Lizzie.
And one last question, and I'dlove each of you to answer this
before we go If you could have abillboard with anything on it,
what would it be?
Speaker 3 (28:54):
Remember to play.
Speaker 4 (28:56):
That's a nice one, Lizzie.
How about you, Caitlin?
Speaker 2 (29:00):
Oh gosh, that's a big one.
Yeah, I think it would be quitesimilar, but I suppose it'd be
more about being kind toyourself.
I mean, I've just spent thisweek running all these programs
with people who are goingthrough hard times and that
self-compassion is so far awayfor so many people and it
creates a lot of suffering.
(29:21):
So we can create suffering forourselves, but we can also
create peace and connection andplay.
So be kind to yourself, which?
Speaker 4 (29:32):
yeah, yeah, I love that.
It's one of my values.
Be kind, thank you again.
Congratulations on the book andhave a fabulous day.
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (29:42):
Thank you so much for having us, Justin.
Speaker 1 (29:46):
Thanks for listening to the Secrets of Successful
Business podcast.
For more information on allthings business, head to
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(30:07):
See you next time.
You're listening to the Secrets of Successful
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and proven strategies that willhelp you create a streamlined
and profitable business.
We chat to the best minds inbusiness about their journey.
It's my business and I'll do itmy way, how they started,
rather than going harder to getmore focus on growing more with
(00:25):
what you have.
What they learned along the way.
How long are you going to givethis?
What compromises are?
Speaker 3 (00:29):
you going to make Just because?
Speaker 4 (00:31):
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Speaker 1 (00:33):
It's really important to remember that it's a long
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If you're not feeling you'renot doing it right, you should
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Join us as we take a sneak peekbehind the curtain, talk
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not harder, mindset and thechallenges of bidding it all in
(00:57):
with the demands of today's busylife style.
If you're a business owner,side hustler or just starting
your business journey, thispodcast is for you.
Now here's your host, businesscoach and content creator,
justine McLean from FawcayCreative.
Speaker 4 (01:13):
Hello and thanks for joining me on the podcast today.
In case we haven't met, I'mJustine, a small business owner
on a mission to uncover andshare the secrets of creating
and running a profitable,sustainable and successful
business.
I've been in business for over20 years now and I get to use
all that I've learned along theway to help other women in
business reduce the overwhelm,gain visibility around their
(01:37):
numbers, charge what they'reworth and make more money.
It's about designing a life youlove that fits into your
definition of success.
So if I can help you create theprofitable business you deserve
, please reach out Now withoutfurther ado.
Let's dive into today's episode.
(01:58):
Being creative is good for us.
It lowers our stress hormones,it calms our nervous system and
can get us into a flow state.
And while innate creativity ispart of being human, many of us
have been told from a very youngage that we're not good at art,
or definitely not creative, soit's something we tend not to
(02:21):
pursue.
But with mental healthchallenges on the rise and
support systems stretched to thelimit, something's got to give,
and so I'm happy to welcometoday's guests, caitlin Marshall
and Lizzie Rose, to share howwe can use creativity as first
aid to improve our mental healthand wellbeing and reduce stress
(02:41):
too.
Caitlin and Lizzie are thefounders of makeshift, an
award-winning agency thatprovides trauma, informed
creativity and mental healthprograms for communities,
workplaces and groups throughoutAustralia.
Since 2013, they've worked withthousands of people, including
first responders, communitiesaffected by bushfires and floods
(03:01):
, and they've worked with someof Australia's biggest corporate
clients as well.
So, without further ado, I'dlike to welcome Caitlin and
Lizzie.
Hi, caitlin and Lizzie, welcometo the podcast.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
Thanks so much for having us, Justine.
Speaker 4 (03:17):
It's great to have you here today and to talk about
one of my favourite subjects,which is creativity, because I
think so many of us think thatwe're not born with a single
creative bone in our body, andso is really a breath of fresh
air, I think, for people who arelooking for different ways or
(03:37):
an alternative to help withtheir mental health and their
stress levels.
But before I dive into that,can you share a little bit about
your business, makeshift, andwhat inspired you to write
Creative First Aid?
Speaker 2 (03:55):
Sure so makeshift.
We founded the organisationabout a decade ago, under a
different name actually, and wehad a different focus, which was
about creating a platform inthe community for people to
exchange skills, creative skills, skills in DIY and
sustainability.
And so for years we ranhundreds and hundreds of
(04:19):
workshops where communitymembers had the opportunity to
teach and other people in thecommunity had a chance to come
and learn.
And over time we kept hearingfrom people that this was not
only great in learning how tocook from scratch or how to make
you know how to sew or how tofix your bike, but also it was
(04:41):
having this impact on people'swellbeing and sense of
connection to the community,which we know social connection
is a really important part ofmental wellbeing.
And then what happened was thatdoctors and psychologists and
allied health professionals weregetting in touch and saying,
hey, we're referring people toyour classes and we really,
(05:02):
given that our background is andtraining is in social work and
Lizzie's in communitydevelopment, sustainability
education we kind of took thatreally seriously and wanted to
push that further and started apilot program, an eight week
program that we designed to workwith people mostly with PTSD
and who were unable to work andthat was called creativity on
(05:26):
prescription, which took peoplethrough a journey of exploring a
different creative practicewith a different artist each
week, alongside learning abouthow our nervous system works and
how to support your wellbeing.
We hear that all the time, youknow, we've got to support our
wellbeing, we've got to lookafter our mental health, but
actually we're not really taughta lot of practical information
(05:48):
about how to do that.
So we started that.
The pandemic arrived andsuddenly being a face to face
grassroots workshop organizationmeant we had to Change pretty
quickly and went online, which alot of people did, and that
really opened up the doors to beable to work with people all
over the country.
(06:08):
And since then we've runhundreds of programs and courses
using this approach of what wecall creative first aid In
different ways, and also lots ofwork in workplaces as well,
which has been really wonderful.
Speaker 4 (06:24):
Were you surprised at that link between creativity
and how it helped mental health?
Because I'm sure when youstarted your program, or when
you started what is nowmakeshift, you probably didn't
go into it with a mission ofproviding that mental health
support.
Speaker 3 (06:43):
No, it's kind of the opposite.
It wasn't a surprise to us.
We were cultivating a designand development of our programs
with that intention.
We just didn't lead with theforefront, we didn't put it out
the same.
This is a mental health program, but absolutely the
undercurrent of the work thatwe've done in community
development from the start hasbeen about bringing together
(07:05):
people with a shared interest tothen explore these interests to
resolve potential problems.
So we had a real intentionaldesign and it's when the
psychologists and GPs in ourcommunity started picking it up
and the participants startedfeeding back to us that it was
having an impact on their mentalwell-being that we really
(07:25):
enlarged the work that we do andwent there and formed makeshift
as it is today.
Speaker 4 (07:31):
And so what have you discovered as the link, I guess,
between mental health, thatwell-being and creativity?
Like, where did you first seethose sort of changes, or those
aha moments, or what changes didyou start to see that you
thought that we know, there'sthis link, we're now getting
(07:52):
approved.
Speaker 2 (07:53):
Well, we definitely saw it in our work.
I mean, I've seen it.
I've worked in social work, inmental health and kind of crisis
, sexual assault support as ayoung social worker and I saw it
.
Then I was using creativepractice as a tool in that work
and what you witness is thatpeople, creativity or engaging
in creative practice givespeople a little space to just
(08:17):
sit outside of their identityfor a moment.
You kind of get to try on adifferent version of yourself.
It creates space for curiosityand curiosity leads us to new
ways of thinking and often whatgets in the way when we're
really kind of overwhelmed withanxiety or depression is some
really rigid thinking that cankind of trap.
(08:38):
So it just is this kind ofgateway to.
Ultimately, I think that toreally work through challenging
mental health tricky timesrequires creative thinking.
We have to kind of find newways through, and so practicing
creativity kind of gives us thepractice of thinking in a
(09:01):
different way.
When we do something creative,even if we've never done it
before, you've got to, you know,try something new, experiment,
take a risk, be prepared tomaybe to go a bit wonky, not be
sure how it's going to turn out,and so that's an amazing
practice.
Space for doing that in ourlives.
Speaker 4 (09:25):
Yeah, it's so interesting, isn't it?
Because when I grew up, my mumhad some pretty severe mental
health issues and I reallywasn't aware of them.
I wasn't, I mean, obviously Iknew that something wasn't right
, but at that age and at thattime it was not something that
was in the picture, certainlynot in the news, not talked
(09:46):
about, and I couldn't really putmy finger on it.
And the prescription was alwaystablets, you know, to take this
.
At that stage it was nevergoing to see someone unless
there was going to be, you know,quite an invasive intervention.
I suppose you know that moretraditional approach has
obviously changed a lot over theyears and certainly it's
(10:08):
probably not as archaic in 2024as it was, you know, way back in
the sort of late 70s, early 80s.
But you know, I just wonderwhat the benefits are of if
someone is listening to this andthey're thinking, yeah, look, I
really feel like I've got theseissues, maybe I have pursued
(10:29):
this more traditional route ofan approach to help with mental
health.
How can they transition, Isuppose?
Or how can they start toprescribe that creativity for
themselves or talk to aprofessional about having that
option as an alternative to thatmore traditional medicine?
Speaker 3 (10:53):
I think it begins with, I guess, agency and the
realization that as human beingswe're all creative, so we kind
of already do have a bunch ofbuilt-in tools that we can lean
upon.
So you know, one of the firststeps that we work with our
participants in our programs isjust the gentle reminder that
you know we do have agency overour mental health every day and
(11:16):
we can apply a practice ofcreativity that can gently
interact with our nervous systemand help us shift our mood.
It's not a quick fix and it'snot at all everything and it
sits alongside, you know,therapy and sometimes medication
.
But I think the beginning steps, can you know, we lay it out in
our book around the methodologyof creative first aid, and then
(11:38):
the book ends with 50prescriptions at the end, which
are just everyday prescriptionsthat anybody can do with minimal
materials.
So there is creativity justwaiting to be engaged with or
embraced.
So it's.
I think it begins with just abit of curiosity and dialing up
the curiosity to what issomething that I might be able
(11:59):
to do for myself and that looksa little different to the, you
know, existing medical model oftreatment for mental health.
Speaker 4 (12:04):
Yeah, and I love your prescriptions, by the way,
because I was expecting them allto be pick up a paintbrush and
whatever.
But there's, you know, so manydifferent options how to do a
nature walk and so on.
And it's interesting that yousay that because I think for so
many of us, we think we're notcreative.
I am, I feel like I am quitecreative.
I'm used to painting really bigpictures.
(12:25):
But last year was a particularlystressful year for me and I
found that when I went to go andbe creative, I was completely
paralyzed by the idea that I hadto try and paint this big thing
.
It just was adding anotherstress.
So my husband kindly bought mea paint by numbers for Christmas
and I just found that sittingthere in this mindless activity
(12:47):
of looking for a number andfinding the color that matched
the number was exactly what Ineeded to get me out of my head.
So for anyone listening whowould like to, you know, pursue
a creative, you know task ratherthan taking a walk in nature,
for example.
But they think, oh, I'm notcreative, what would you say to
people to sort of overcome thatbarrier to entry that they might
(13:10):
be thinking exists?
Speaker 2 (13:13):
Yeah, firstly, I would say that it's so common.
So many people have that ideaabout themselves that they're
not creative.
And we, when we dig into that,we've met thousands of those
people.
It's often come from somemessage quite early in life that
either from a teacher or aparent or a friend or a sibling,
that is so profoundly formativein in kind of developing your
(13:39):
idea about whether you'recreative or not.
And so people if they get thatidea early oh you're not good at
this, then they kind of closethe door on that for their life.
And the truth is and we kind oftry to lay this out in the book
with evidence and research isthat all humans have innate
creativity.
We are born with it hardwiredinto us and in fact there's a
(14:02):
lot of ways that we can becreative.
It's not just about making art,and so it's kind of like a
muscle that can lie dormant.
It's there whether we use it ornot, and actually for the
purpose of supporting ournervous system and our
well-being, which is kind of theplace that we're talking about
how it can be applied for ourmental health.
We don't actually need to bethat good at it for it to be
(14:25):
good for us.
It's actually like you weresaying, the paint by numbers,
just the act of, you know,filling out with colour over and
over again.
It's the sensory process thathappens by that action that
actually helps to regulate ournervous system.
Immediately it starts tointeract with our brain
chemistry.
So that tells us that doingthese things is good for us.
(14:49):
And if you want to start withthe paint by numbers, or you
know those colouring in booksthat exploded a few years ago,
you know, I think that was thisbeautiful moment of people
remembering this actually feelsgood, it relaxes us and you
don't have to have anyparticular skill.
And of course it's part of whywe have written this book is
(15:10):
because creativity is so closedoff to so many people, and I
think that's a real tragedy.
You know we all have a right toexpress our creativity and
humans have used creativeexpression in every culture
around the world, in allrecorded human history.
So to have so many people justsay I can't do that, that's not
(15:33):
for me.
I'm closing that door.
It means we're closing off thiswhole free, reliable, innate
resource that every singleperson has.
So now I say start small, startwith the paint by numbers,
start with something really,really gentle and easy and not
over ambitious, to just start toflex that little muscle.
Speaker 4 (15:55):
But, as you say, like colouring in I forgot about
those colouring in books thatwere so popular, still around
everywhere.
So colouring in or writing astory or lots of things, but you
have so many prescriptions inyour book, so it doesn't need to
be that kind of that definitionof creativity that we're all
thinking about.
When I think about the worldnow, I mean there's just so much
(16:17):
going on and you know you don'teven really need to look far
afield for the stresses.
Right, it could be that iPhonein your hand with social media
on it.
It could be something that'sgoing on in your family or your
friendship group or at work, or,you know, a financial stress.
There just seems to be so muchstress and so much overwhelm
(16:39):
that it's almost like, as acommunity at large, we're all
headed to some sort of burnout,but we're just not even seeing
the symptoms now.
We just accept that this ispart of a living in this day and
age and we kind of have to justkeep soldiering on.
And I think this isparticularly true of women and
(17:02):
business women, who are a lot ofour listeners.
So what are some of the signsto look out for that?
You know, maybe the stress thatwe're experiencing we just
shouldn't put off to being OK,it's just another day in 2024.
And that maybe we should havethat intervention with ourselves
to practice that self care andperhaps, you know, jump into a
(17:26):
creative activity.
Speaker 3 (17:29):
I mean, I think that the I think the signs definitely
are already well and truly outthere that you know as a kind of
population at large, people arestruggling with burnout and
overwhelm and anxiety, withoverconsumption and the
productivity and rate of life.
So some of the really obvioussigns are just being in that you
(17:49):
know, kind of monkey mind andreally busy mind state and on
this treadmill of keeping goingand trudging on and trudging on
until we just keep going andthen we just can't anymore.
So our prescriptions aredesigned as really gentle
interventions that can be donedaily.
Some of them only take two tofive minutes and self care is
(18:09):
something that gets bandedaround a lot at the moment and
it's absolutely is necessarythat we prioritize self care and
some of the prescriptions arejust based around this idea that
they are hoped to become habitsso that you know, no matter
what state you're in of busynessin your life, there's there's
probably never going to be theright time to sit down and stop
(18:32):
and do creativity.
So we really just urge peopleto just start with it as as
though it's like brushing yourteeth.
It's something that'snon-negotiable, that you're
doing every day because it'stending to your nervous system
and it's tending to your mentalhealth, doesn't matter where you
are on the sliding spectrum ofwell being, something that, as
we all have physical health andwe all have mental health, so
(18:53):
something that we all do need tolook after every day, and
creativity is just a playful,gentle, really effective way to
do that.
Speaker 4 (19:02):
Yeah, so.
So maybe you know, as you say,no matter where you are on the
scale and no matter whether youare noticing those physical
symptoms or not, just make thatdecision to think OK, for five,
10, 15 minutes every day as astart, whether it's the start of
the day, the end of the day.
I'm just going to find thattiny bit of me time, that white
(19:23):
space, and see if I can dosomething that's creative.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:27):
And I think too, in our book we talk, you know, we
make a big link between the gapin general literacy around
mental health is about ournervous system and learning to
notice and listen to the cuesthat our nervous system is
telling us, which are often thecues that we need something.
So when we get into that reallyactivated overwhelm kind of 20
(19:50):
thoughts in our mind and wecan't sleep, that's a very clear
sign Our nervous system iswaving at us saying I need
something.
And just like our body gives usmessages every day, like hunger
first, you know I'm cold, I needa jumper, and we tend to answer
those calls for physical needs,like hunger and thirst, but
(20:12):
we're not really given the toolsto understand signs that
they're being met.
And so that's what we kind oflay out in the book learning to
notice those signs and they'redifferent for every person,
there's often patterns to thatand then the prescriptions are a
way to start to apply a littlestrategy to offset some of those
(20:33):
signs and return us into aplace where our nervous system
is regulated, we are able tofollow through with, you know,
making decisions for our health,for our business, for our
family, from a place of logic,rational thinking, being able to
be compassionate, which is hardto do when we're really kind of
out of our heads, you know,overwhelmed, panicked, or even
(20:55):
just numb and completelyexhausted.
Speaker 4 (20:58):
And there could be, I guess, more subtle signs as
well.
You know, you don't have to bein that state where you're sort
of waking up at night or havingthose 20 thoughts in your head,
and so I think it's important,as you say, to kind of try and
build it in, make it a dailypractice, make it a gift that
you give to yourself everysingle day.
But I think it's also importantto say that if you are in that
(21:18):
position where you're feelingcompletely overwhelmed and like
you're unable to cope, then it'sdefinitely essential to seek
professional help.
Speaker 3 (21:28):
Oh yeah, absolutely, absolutely yeah.
This is not like we said.
You know, it's not a medicalintervention that solves, you
know, extreme mental healthproblems.
It's a maintenance forwell-being and it does also work
in, you know, trauma recovery.
It's something that we can doevery day and sits alongside
other interventions and othertherapeutic care.
Speaker 4 (21:50):
And both of you have worked for a long time in this
field and you've also beeninvolved in some high stress
situations.
The bushfires, the floods arethe more recent ones.
So what brings each of you thatdelight or and joy every day?
What do you each do for yourmental health and creativity?
Speaker 3 (22:14):
Yeah, I'm fortunate enough to live by the coast down
here in South Asinian,wollongong, where makeshift is
based, and so the ocean is mygo-to salve.
Every day A dipper day is kindof how I phrase it I do laps in
our local sea pool or I justdive in at the ocean and that
really keeps me grounded andkeeps clears my head and
(22:37):
listening.
Speaker 4 (22:38):
You and I are on the same planet.
Here, a dipper day keeps thedoctor away.
Speaker 2 (22:47):
Yeah, and I think too , we've been fortunate enough
but also worked very hard in ourbusiness to weave this kind of
way of working and living intohow we work as well.
So sometimes you know, havingmeetings outside or going for a
walk, or actually in the middleof the day, we'll go, let's go
(23:08):
and have a swim, and wouldn't itbe great if everyone can work
that way, and I know that that'snot necessarily the case for a
lot of people.
But, yeah, I certainly findhaving a garden, having animals
I do lots of drawing and justmake sure there's notebooks and
things to doodle on almost inevery room of my house and live
(23:31):
music for me is something thatjust if I can regularly get some
kind of live music, it'sabsolutely a game changer in
helping me feel connected toother people, but also that big
dose of absolute joy, yeah.
Speaker 4 (23:45):
Yeah, so there's, so, yeah, there's lots of ways and
50 ways in your fabulous book,creative first aid, which, by
the way, is available now at allgood bookstores.
So just putting on a differenthat for a minute when you think
about you know, makeshift inyour business and what that has
been over the last decade.
(24:06):
What would you say is yoursecret, or secrets, of running a
successful business?
Speaker 3 (24:11):
Well, I mean it definitely.
You know it requires putting ona different hat but at the same
time it doesn't, because of thesecret for us for our success
is to have integrated creativityinto our everything we do.
So you know we obviouslyrunning a small business has a
whole lot of organization andadmin and a lot of really boring
(24:32):
stuff that goes around with it.
But we inject play into most ofwhat we do to keep ourselves
grounded and, you know, not takeourselves too seriously.
And it also it's where the Iwant if we allow a bit of create
creative practice before wedesign or develop a program or
have, you know, a set agendameeting that we do every week.
(24:54):
It allows for ideas to form andit allows for us the free
thinking and the mind wandering,so it enhances our business.
So, yeah, it comes back tofirst aid.
Speaker 2 (25:05):
Yeah, interesting, and I think it also helps to
live with the uncertainty.
You know how you're running abusiness running a small
business, in particularly in thelast five years.
You can't necessarily plan thenext five years with any
certainty, and so sitting with alot of uncertainty is just part
(25:26):
of that, and that can be reallyuncomfortable, it can be
stressful, and so we have toapply the framework that we
write about in our book ofstaying curious, you know,
having lots of compassion, forwe're doing our best and
sometimes things don't always gothe way we wanted them to or
hoped they would.
There's things out there wecan't control, like when we're
(25:48):
not allowed to meet in real life, and I know we've passed that
now.
Speaker 4 (25:51):
But, yeah, I think that's been a big part of how
we've stayed the force andstayed focused to yeah, so when
you encounter those moments,it's about going back to the
principles that you've writtenabout and the things that you
know in that creative first daythe reason you started your
(26:11):
business is.
Is that what you mean?
Speaker 2 (26:13):
Yeah, that's right.
And just as long as we're stillworking to our values and our
purpose and really focused onwhat is our work doing to have
this social impact which isreally at the heart of what we
want to be doing, then you know,whatever kind of waves we're
bobbing around on, that wedidn't expect, we can still feel
(26:35):
like we're.
On course, you think we're notquite sure where we're going to
land.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 4 (26:41):
Yeah, I think that's such good advice for, you know,
anyone who's listening,particularly now, who's feeling
a little bit uncertain aboutwhere they're going, and you
know, when you think back isthere something that you know
now that you wish you'd knownthen and maybe employed earlier
In business.
Speaker 2 (26:58):
Oh gosh.
Yes, I think you know there's alot of great advice in business
coaching and mentoring aboutgetting your foundation really
solid from the beginning, and alot of that is the kind of
boring stuff you know, gettingreally good financial processes,
having really clear documentswritten out, making sure that,
(27:23):
yeah, all those kind of nuts andbolts of your business are
sorted and so you can get onwith the business of doing what
you're actually there to do andyeah that's.
We've learned that a milliontimes, how important that is,
and I reminded of how importantthat is.
Speaker 4 (27:42):
Yeah particularly when you're starting out Amazing
.
Hey, Ellen and Lizzie, thankyou so much for being on the
podcast today.
I know that everybody listeningneeds that dose of creativity
in their life and, as I said,your book Creative First Aid is
available now at all goodbookstores.
But what's the best way forlisteners to connect with you if
(28:04):
they want to sort of takethings a step further?
Speaker 3 (28:07):
They can find a lot of information about our
organization, our programs, onour website, makeshiftorgau, and
they can follow us on socialmedia, makeshiftcreativefirstaid
.
No makeshift underscore.
That's all right, it's amouthful that makeshift
underscore creativefirstaid.
Speaker 2 (28:26):
Yeah, yeah, I'm sure if you just type makeshift into
Instagram.
Speaker 4 (28:37):
Surely it's going to come up and look for yeah look
for Caitlin and Lizzie.
And one last question, and I'dlove each of you to answer this
before we go If you could have abillboard with anything on it,
what would it be?
Speaker 3 (28:54):
Remember to play.
Speaker 4 (28:56):
That's a nice one, Lizzie.
How about you, Caitlin?
Speaker 2 (29:00):
Oh gosh, that's a big one.
Yeah, I think it would be quitesimilar, but I suppose it'd be
more about being kind toyourself.
I mean, I've just spent thisweek running all these programs
with people who are goingthrough hard times and that
self-compassion is so far awayfor so many people and it
creates a lot of suffering.
(29:21):
So we can create suffering forourselves, but we can also
create peace and connection andplay.
So be kind to yourself, which?
Speaker 4 (29:32):
yeah, yeah, I love that.
It's one of my values.
Be kind, thank you again.
Congratulations on the book andhave a fabulous day.
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (29:42):
Thank you so much for having us, Justin.
Speaker 1 (29:46):
Thanks for listening to the Secrets of Successful
Business podcast.
For more information on allthings business, head to
focicomau and make sure you hitsubscribe on the show so you
don't miss another new episode.
If you're enjoying the show,please give it a quick rating or
review, share it on yoursocials or with friends who
might enjoy it.
(30:07):
See you next time.
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