Ep. 177 Bri Stensrud - Welcoming Immigrants and Refugees with Compassion - Shifting Culture

Episode Transcript
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Bri Stensrud (00:00):
So what I mean by prophetic is, is that there

(00:02):
should be a difference thereshould be a Christ, like
powerful difference between whatyou're saying and what you are
speaking into the culture andhow you're acting within the
culture than the rest of theworld. And the rest of the world
right now the rest of cultureright now says Pick aside. And
for Christians, our side is withJesus. And we'll we'll noodle

(00:23):
through the rest. And there areour big things to noodle
through, but we should bedifferent.

Joshua Johnson (00:43):
Hello, and welcome to the shifting culture
podcast in which we haveconversations about the culture
we create, and the impact we canmake. We longed to see the body
of Christ look like Jesus. I'myour host, Joshua Johnson. Go to
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(01:06):
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network? Tell them how much youenjoy it and let them know that
they should be listening aswell. If you're new here,

(01:27):
welcome. If you want to digdeeper, find us on social media
at shifting culture podcastwhere I post video clips and
quotes and interact with all ofyou. Previous guests on the show
have included nakoma The nahe,Kevin King and Meredith Johnson.
He go back listen to thoseepisodes and more. But today's
guest is barista and stret. Breeis an author, human dignity

(01:48):
advocate and the director ofwomen of welcome her passion is
to equip the church to engagemore consistently in tangibly
and holistic human dignityissues. Throughout her work in
the pro life movement, Breecontinually faced questions from
those concerned about immigrantsand refugees. Understanding that
many concerns were rooted infear and misinformation. She

(02:09):
started a journey to detanglefrom politically partisan
narratives and seek out abiblical perspective to uplift
and advocate for immigrants andrefugees and invite other
Christian women into the samespace. Her latest book is start
with welcome. In my conversationwith Bree. She shares about
shifting from a traditional prolife stance to a whole life

(02:29):
approach that values all humandignity and life. Bree shares
her personal journey in thisregard and emphasize the
importance of proximity, empathyand compassion when it comes to
issues like immigration. Sheencourages Christians to move
beyond comfort, engage withscripture, and advocate for
vulnerable groups likeimmigrants and refugees from a

(02:51):
prophetic, nonpartisanperspective focused on people
rather than politics. Briencourages us all to have open
conversations, welcomeimmigrants into their
communities, and serve withpresence rather than just
financially supporting issuesfrom a distance. So join us as
we learn how to welcomeimmigrants and refugees with
compassion. Here's myconversation with Bree Stens.

(03:14):
Red. Aubrey, welcome to shiftingculture really excited to have
you on. Thanks for joining me.

Thanks for having me.

Can you share with me your story of how you
move from a place of being inthe the pro life movement of
let's focus on abortion and makesure that a there's some life
that gets to be lived out into aplace of like, Hey, we're pro
all life? And we want to say,yes, we want to say we want life

(03:41):
in the womb, but we also wantlife for people everywhere. How
did that transition for you takeplace? So

I grew up as a pastor's kid in the evangelical
church. And of course, you know,evangelical Christians are pro
life people. And yet growing upin the pro life movement and
then working professionally inthe pro life movement, you know,
that's really more of atraditional way to define being
pro life is about really prebornlife and about vulnerable women

(04:09):
who find themselves in reallyhard situations. And so during
my work in the pro lifemovement, I was challenged by a
mentor to really look at the prolife issue as more of a
continuum of a whole life issueand to rethink what it meant to
be pro life from a biblicalpoint of view, not just like a

(04:30):
dictionary definition of what itmeant to be pro life. And when
you look at what it means to bepro life from a biblical
definition, we care about thedignity and sanctity of every
human life because of Genesis127. And because of a huge arc
throughout scripture of otherverses that talk about
protecting vulnerable people andnot taking innocent life and

(04:52):
being champion of theflourishing of others and loving
our neighbors well, and so Ireally got mentored into this
kind of Life pro life worldview.
And that carried me into otherspaces of adoption and end of
life care and other things likethat. But really, there's, you
know, any human dignity issuethat deals with life and death,
from a biblical standpoint isreally kind of a, it's a pro

(05:14):
life worldview. And it fits inthe worldview and it feels
squishy at first, especiallyimmigration, people are like,
well, that feels like it's justa political issue. But if we
take out kind of the big eye ofimmigration, and we look at
immigrants and refugees, asindividual image bearers of our
Creator, it's definitely a prolife issue because they are

(05:36):
facing life and death issues andfind themselves very vulnerable
and without a voice in placesall across the world searching
for flourishing, and for a newlife. And so I moved from this
kind of traditional sense ofwhat it meant to be pro life,
really just for the prebornspace, and then moved into a
whole life pro life definition.

(05:57):
And in that, I was invited byWorld Relief to go across the
border to southern Mexico forfour and a half days of an
immersive experience. And I sawthings I could never unsee and
it changed really the trajectoryof my life and my profession.

What was something that you saw that you
can't unsee now, or

I think the biggest thing that I will never
be able to unsee and will neverleave me is an 11 year old girl
holding an eight Dale baby thatwas her own. And I was exposed
and brought in greater proximityto people that I had never been
around before. And I had beengiven a new narrative that

(06:39):
included people that I had longthought that I was championing.
I thought, oh, yeah, well, Icare about the dignity and
sanctity of every human life,immigrants are made in the image
of God, I am pro immigrant. Andyet I wasn't using my voice
well, for those who didn't havea voice, and I was also unaware

(07:00):
of the full story of whatimmigrants and refugees are
overcoming, to, essentially justsurvive. And so when I went down
to Mexico, and I was taken intoan unaccompanied minor shelter,
where there were just childrenwho had been lost or separated
from their parents along theirjourney north to the US, I

(07:21):
encountered several young girls,111 and 113, who are holding
their own babies. And that shookme, I had never been told that
as an American, or even as aChristian, that this kind of
violence, this kind of, reallytrauma and instability was
happening to children around theworld. And we knew this just
from like the human traffickingworld. And we knew that because

(07:44):
people live in poverty, but tosee the real reasons why people
are being pushed out, and thereal pull factors of why people
want to come to America was soincredibly fresh and real. And
that will never leave me.

I think when I sat down, and I went from
thinking about immigration, or,you know, people coming from
other countries as refugees, asa political issue, or just an
issue in general, to a place ofsitting in, in living rooms with
with refugees, and actually thenbecoming friends. Now, I say,

(08:23):
these are my friends, thesearen't refugees. These are
immigrants. These are myfriends, these are people, there
are people. What is it? How dowe get to a place of sleep seen
people instead of just issues?

Well, I think for the Christian, there's a couple
of things I think the church is,has lost its proximity to people
in pain, we are out of practiceon how to long suffer with
people. And we have done a verygood job in American
Christianity of curatingcommunities that are very safe,

(09:00):
and very monolithic, and veryhomogenous, because that is what
makes us feel comfortable. Andthat's what we like. And America
is a consumeristic nation. Thisis we are consumers and we also
like to be catered to. And sothat's no different in the way
that we kind of, we want thekind of worship we want that we
want the kind of community wewant. We want the kind of

(09:22):
education we want. And inAmerica, we have the ability and
the privilege to kind of just dowhatever we want to go wherever
we want to go and make the kindof life that we want to make.
And so we have done a reallygreat job of really kind of
insulating ourselves from whatthe rest of the world needs us
to engage in. And so we'vereally lost I think the the gift

(09:45):
of proximate proximity and thepower of proximity to people who
are in pain. Because we all knowthat suffering brings us closer
to the heart of God and it makesus more like Christ. And it has
an eternal weight and purposethat we We are trying very hard
to avoid in many cases, right?
And so we've we I think we'velost our proximity. We've also

(10:06):
lost the ability to dig into theScriptures with hunger for other
people. And so when LifeWayResearch comes out with a brand
new study just a couple of weeksago, it says that only 26% of
self identified evangelicalismsay that their Bible is the
thing that's influencing themthe most about immigration.
That's troubling. We need to be,you know, the Bible. I think

(10:28):
people are surprised when I whenI say, you know, it's it's not
that the Bible has anything tosay about US immigration policy,
actually doesn't have anythingto say about US immigration
policy. But what it does have alot to say about our immigrants
or refugees, people who aresojourning. And the Bible has a
lot to say about how we shouldthink feel, talk and advocate
for those who are vulnerable andsojourning throughout our land.

(10:52):
And that right there should tellus all right, if God has
something to say about this, Iwant to know about it. And we
have, we are so out of practiceon how to have a good
conversation from a faithperspective. First that we have,
we've really left this to thepoliticians, which have we need
a new fresh, faith fillednarrative from Christians to

(11:13):
lead the way in the mayor. Yes.

So if we look in, in Scripture, and if you
look all the way back from, youknow, Genesis all the way
through, how does Scripture dealwith migration? If we want to
look at a through the lens ofmigrating people or migration
itself? What is the Bibletelling us?

Well, the Bible tells us that God cares a lot
about immigrants and refugees,people who are sojourning
through the land, I mean, nearlyevery major biblical character,
like major biblical character inthe Bible was an immigrant. They
were coming and going, and theywere going because they were
fleeing something or the Godtold them to go somewhere like

(11:55):
Abram, or they had donesomething. So they needed to
take shelter in a differentland. I mean, David Acton acted
insane at one point to getcoverage from another from the
Philippines in the state. So Imean, you've got Migration
Stories, and biblical characterswho from throughout biblical
history are moving themselves tofind flourishing or moving

(12:16):
because the Lord directed themto. But even just in the Old
Testament itself, the word forstranger, alien Sojourner is the
word guerre, as the Hebrew wordand it's used over 90 times in
the Old Testament alone. Andthere are specific ways that God
wanted His people to rememberand take care of sonar

(12:37):
sojourners, like do not gleanmore than once in your field,
you leave the outer edges. Forthose who are traveling you
treat the foreigner as if theywere native born you appropriate
land to them, you have just youspeak up for the immigrant, you
also appropriate justice forthat immigrant, you seek out
justice for them. So in the OldTestament, you have all of these
major biblical characters whoare migrating and traveling and

(12:58):
going to different lands. Andthen you also have just God
repeatedly telling his people, Iwant you to care about
immigrants and refugees, as Iwant you to care about other
vulnerable populations,immigrants or refugees or, you
know, sojourners, the Gare ismentioned, along with the those
who are in poverty, the widowand orphan, it's called the

(13:19):
quartet of the vulnerable, it'sfrom Nicholas Wolterstorff, was
at the theologian who kind ofcoined this phrase of you know,
every time there's just thiscluster, in the Old Testament,
it's the widow, the sojournerand the poor. And God keeps
reminding his people that theseare the vulnerable among you,
and I want you to care aboutthem. And, and I want you to see
them. And then when, of course,when you move to the New

(13:39):
Testament, Jesus is like,everybody is your neighbor. And
that young lawyer is like, Well,okay, what do you mean,
specifically? And if he wasreally trying to figure out who
he could have on his nonneighbor list, surely, Lord, not
everybody. Because there aresome cultural specifications

(14:00):
around here, you know, it's likethe Roman soldiers are occupying
us, and the tax collectors areour own people who are
exploiting us. Surely, I don'thave to love all those people,
as I love my own children, as Ilove my own self. And Jesus was
like, Well, you know, let metell you about this Samaritan,
who you like, don't like and I'mgoing to make him the hero. So

(14:21):
you have from Genesis really toRevelation and where we're
talking about every tribe inevery nation, singing praises of
worshiping God, we have thisnarrative that we have to
revisit and rethink about as faras alright. God wants us to care
about the vulnerable, he wantsto love our neighbor as
ourselves. And so what does thatactually mean for me, if I take
God seriously, and what he's, itdoesn't mean we allow everybody

(14:45):
who wants to come into the USentry. I mean, that would be
unwise and unsafe, right. So youcan have these both ends, right?
Everybody thinks because Iadvocate for Christ like welcome
and compassion, that I'm alsoadvocating for some kind of have
open borders policy of somesort. And yet, that's, that's
somebody even viable. That's notThat's not even a reasonable

(15:08):
request or advocate, you know,advocacy point to make because
we can have safe and secureborders and humane treatment of
people who are coming to theborder. And those things are not
mutually exclusive concepts. SoI think people are a bit
relieved when I say, law andorder and humane treatment of
people because it's like, oh,okay, I don't have to be weak.

(15:29):
My Compassion doesn't make meweak. Your compassion should
make you kind. Your compassionis not actually meant to be
political. It's meant to beprophetic. So when people tell
you that your compassion thatGod has given you we all have
God given compassion asChristian, if someone was to
say, well, that has made youpolitical, that has made you
soft, that has made you weak,really, our compassion is God

(15:51):
given to be prophetic in thisworld around us. And compassion
is not a weakness. It's akindness.

Yeah, that's true. So then get into what does
that look like to be propheticand a place to be? I am a
prophetic witness. My mycompassion is prophetic in a
place. What are you saying inthat statement?

What I'm saying is, is that the people of God
should be different in thisculture, and that their words
should be giving life andsustaining life and introducing
them to the one and only person,Jesus Christ, that will save
their life for eternity. And sowe are meant to be speaking
forth, God's words, which weknow do not come back empty, and

(16:38):
that they go out and that theychange people's lives, they
separate bone and marrow, andwe, we have the power of Christ
to create solutions and toadvocate for other image bearers
in ways that other everydayhumans who don't know Jesus
don't have the ability to do. Sowhen I say that our compassion
is prophetic, it's that we areto be different. We are to be

(17:00):
Christ, like, and so you have todetangle all of your maybe idols
in the political sphere, likeyou know, there's so many
partisan politics that havereally taken so much territory
away from the Christians fieldof play, if we could say it that

(17:21):
way. And what we need to do iswe need to detangle from
partisan politics, get involvedwith public policy, because
policy does affect people. Andthat we have privileged to
affect how people are treated inthis country, how people are
treated at the border, howpeople are invested in, in
diplomatic relations in othercountries, we have a powerful

(17:43):
voice with our government tohold them accountable and hold
them to a higher standard. Andso we should not be chanting and
repeating the same echo chambercomments, the same kinds of
narratives, because we'reactually held to a higher
standard than our neighbor, ifwe bow to Jesus. So what I mean
by prophetic is, is that thereshould be a difference, there

(18:03):
should be a Christ, likepowerful difference between what
you're saying and what you arespeaking into the culture and
how you're acting within theculture than the rest of the
world. And the rest of the worldright now, the rest of culture
right now says Pick aside. Andfor Christians, our side is with
Jesus. And we'll, we'll noodlethrough the rest. And there are

(18:25):
our big things to noodlethrough. But we should be
different.

We're actually primarily citizens of, of a
different kingdom, yet thekingdom of Gods you know, living
in different nation statesaround the world. But as
believers, we are a part of thekingdom and we should start set
help unveil the kingdom to, toeverybody show compassion, and
love for people who are here. Ithink for a lot of Christians,

(18:52):
sometimes they they wantproximity through other people.
So as an example, you know, whenmy wife and I went to the Middle
East to serve and be withrefugees, people were like, Hey,
I will give money to you andsupport you and and that is
necessary and needed, and we wewant that. But there are also

(19:16):
some people says, Yeah, I willsupport I will give money, but I
also I have some, some skills Ican I can help. And, you know,
bringing over fabric creating asewing group, so refugees can
have a source of income. And wecan start to study the ways of
Jesus together while we're doingthat. So we have people coming

(19:37):
to provide something that wasactually beneficial and useful
in that space. And so they wouldactually then be proximate to
the refugees as well and nowthey know their stories. They
know their names and who theyare and it's not just an issue
that we throw money at. But Ithink sometimes Christians are
good at throwing money at issuesand they Since then I've done my

(20:01):
part. And so how can we movefrom a place of not just saying
the person over there can do thework, and I will support them in
it. But how do I become acompassionate person that is
proximate and local, withpeople, so I actually see them

(20:21):
know them, and I know theirnames.

Well, the evangelical dollar is powerful,
but still has the power ofpresence. And so I love this
quote from Shane Claiborne. Iheard it about seven years ago,
and it has stuck with me, andnever left me. And I repeat it
everywhere I go, because it justrang so true and was so
convictional to me. And that ishe said, I'm convinced that it's

(20:47):
not that rich Christians don'tcare about the poor. It's that
they don't know the poor. And Ilook around at particularly
white evangelicalism. And I seea lot of people who love to
attend galas, who love to attendand write the check, who love to
send the other person and cheeron other people, and yet are not

(21:12):
intentional about creating orfinding margin for their own
presence to be in a certainplace. And so I think it's very
true. I think Christians do careabout vulnerable people. And I
think that their dollar isincredibly powerful. So I'm not
saying don't write the check,because these ministries need

the checks.
Yeah, we need the check, we needthe check.

Your presence is also a gift. It's also
incredibly powerful. And yourpresence is what makes things
personal. So if you're notgetting in close proximity to
the places that you'reinvesting, then I'm wondering
what you're prioritizing in yourlife, if it's worthy to give
your finances to, Is it worthyto give some of your time to as

(21:56):
well. And of course, people arein different seasons of their
life and you know, busier times,and others. But if everything
about our lives is really justkind of circulating around our
kids, and we're just the tornadoof life is just really kind of
around your sphere of what yourpeople, immediate family and
people need, then we're reallynot living out the gospel, to go

(22:20):
and reach people and be with thehurting be with the sick. You
know, Matthew 25. Lord, when didI see You hungry? When did I see
you in prison? When did I seeyou naked? When did I see you
homeless. And if we are notclose enough to people to see
their pain, we're not living outMatthew 25, which is how the
Lord says he's going to identifyus, it's how he's going to know
us at the end of time, it's notjust, Hey, yes, you're forgiven

(22:43):
for your sins, He's going to belike, I need to be able to
recognize you. And that youshowed up in the world in a
different way. And that youactually love your neighbor as
yourself. And so I would sayit's again, living in this both
end, right. So we say safe andsecure borders, and humane
treatment of people giving ofyour time and your investment,
financial investment and showingup with your presence, because

(23:06):
your presence is also a veryvaluable gift. Most of these
places that we're donating toactually need volunteers, they
actually need the power of yourpresence. And so sometimes they
find it just as valuable.
Presence

is really important. I think that's a
that's a big gift is a sharedlife with others, presence to be
with people. We're we're missingthat in our culture today that
we're we're not very good withpresence anymore. We're good
with with online presence, butwe're not good with that
personal presence. Yeah,physical presence. Yep. So we

(23:38):
need to step into those things.
What's a story of a refugeeimmigrant that has moved you to
compassion, that it's helped seethem in a different light?

Well, I think a lot of people first and foremost
think that they're not nearthese issues. And that because
they don't live along theborder, that they don't have
proximity, or they can't findproximity to immigrants and
refugees. And honestly, thereare so many issues in our own
communities, of people who arelikely just not living in your

(24:11):
same neighborhood, or who arelikely living in the shadows
because they haven't beenwelcomed to America, you know,
in a way that we probably needto welcome them, and that we
should welcome them. And so aquick Google search will tell
you, where immigrants are inyour community, whether that's
searching for an immigrantcongregation and your community.
There's lots of immigrantcongregations that are meeting

(24:33):
on Sundays and other days of theweek. And then there's also just
Googling Immigrant Services inyour county in your city that
can get you in closer proximityto people and the reason why I
bring that up first before Itell you this story is because a
lot of times when I tell storiesof where I've been and who I've
talked to, it feels very distantand very far away. And yet there
are 1000s of these kinds ofstories right in your community.

(24:57):
I can guarantee it and with thepower Are up your presence. You
can hear these stories too. Soyou don't have to just take my
word for it, you could also getclose as well. And migrating
around the world, there are over100 million forcibly displaced
people around the world rightnow. And due to war, conflict,
natural disasters, and 35million of that 100 million are

(25:20):
determined to be refugees,meaning people who are
intentionally fleeingpersecution for on account of
their race, religion, socialstatus, what's going on in their
country. So it's, there's avariety of complicating factors
for why people are on the move,but the world is moving in an
historic rate that we've neverseen before. And so I

just want to just say, when I got involved in
a lot of refugee care, and thisthat was, you know, 14 years ago
or so, the number was like mid20 million, like that is
exponential growth in the last1012 years that is just
unprecedented. Like, there's somany displaced people,

it's more than ever than the history of the
world, or forcibly displacedpeople. And so what, again, is
the church's response to welcomethose who are fleeing in the
sojourner as the Bible commandsus to, but I think one of the
most, I've heard so many storiesthat have changed my perspective
on this, and that has givenconfidence to my compassion and

(26:28):
really anchored my convictionabout how we are to treat
sojourners and the most recentone. I think the most recent one
that I think is most powerful,is I met in Tijuana, San Diego
region, borderland area, I met awoman from Iran, she had come to
know the Lord by a HomeGroup. Inher neighborhood, a group of

(26:49):
ladies had invited her into aBible study, it was obviously a
very quiet Bible study in Iran.
And she was she'd only beengoing for a month but she'd
accepted Jesus and she'd be gonefor a month. And she was late to
group one morning. And as shewas coming upon the house, she
saw that it was being raided.
And so she fled back to herhouse. And she she knew she had

(27:11):
to flee because all of hergirlfriends just got thrown into
prison and more being persecutedfor their faith in Jesus. And so
she, you know, she can't get avisa or any way any means to
come to the US. We don't acceptVSAs from Iran. And so she flew
with her husband and her 10 yearold son to South America. And

(27:33):
they traveled through over 10countries on foot by train, to
get to the US border, they gotlost in the Darien Gap jungle
for four nights by themselves,robbed, took advantage of, and
they made it to the US border,the three of them. And she'd
only been a Christian for amonth. She'd only known Jesus

(27:57):
for a month. So she gets to theUS. she pleads her case, and
they she's granted asylum. Soshe's in the San Diego area.
She's attending a church. Herhusband is not a believer, mind
you. But he's made this journeywith her which is incredible in
and of itself. And her 10 yearold son is not a believer as
well. In fact, when he gets tothe US, he's incredibly bitter.

(28:20):
He's been through a lot oftrauma through this journey to
leave Iran. He's left hisfamily, his friends, his
language, his culture, hisschool, all because of mom's
Jesus. And he's still bitter.
And he's sad. And he's probablyseen more than any 10 year old
should ever have had to see. Andhe's 11 year old now in public

(28:41):
schools in California. And hesticks out like a sore thumb.
And his mom is just praying,Lord, take care of us take care
of us. You brought us all thisway. And a little, little 11
year old girl in his classbefriends him and starts
inviting him to play dates andbirthday parties. And turns out
this little girl is a Christian.

(29:04):
She invites him to church. Andthis 11 year old boy accepts
Christ because of another 11year old girl in his public
school in California. And youjust think, Lord could not have
been done in Iran, couldn't youhave. And yet, the Lord brought
that family all the way to theUS, for her son to meet Jesus,

(29:30):
and to do so in such a profoundway. And of course, not
everybody showing up at thesouthern border has a story like
that not everybody showing up atthe southern border is going to,
you know, that they're going toactually be fleeing persecution
in some way. They're not goingto be approved for asylum. And

(29:53):
that's why I say you know, weneed thorough vetting and not
everybody should be allowed toenter but so many people find
that that is the only legal waythat they can come, there's
really no light for people toget in who are vulnerable and
who are seeking a new life. Andso, as so many people apply for
asylum, and they will notqualify, and yet this family
does, and we want to ensuretheir safety and their lives if

(30:14):
they truly are fleeingpersecution on account of their
Christian faith. And so it wasjust this really powerful
reminder of how God is stillleading people through the
wilderness, and how heprotecting people who claim his
name, and how he is working inreally incredible ways to use
our country as a safe haven forpeople. And if we keep

(30:37):
withdrawing the welcome mat, forpeople who are fleeing
persecution, I think the Lord isgoing to withdraw blessing from
us, because he says, so in thescriptures that, you know, as
you have treated these people, Iwill refer and treat you. And so
you need to keep that in mindthe fear of God, that He cares
about these people just as muchas you care about us. He cares

(30:59):
about their safety, cares aboutour safety, he cares. But he
cares about our heart posturetowards those who are
vulnerable. And if we arebegrudging, and if we don't
think this is an opportunity toinvite people into the kingdom
of God, that will that will besomething that we will encourage
our Trump for.

So how do we do that? Well, how do we become
people of welcome in a way thatliterally welcomes people
without an agenda, but just ascompassionate loves people,
where they're at? How do webecome those types of people?
Well,

there are multiple ways for people to get involved.
And first and foremost, what Iwould say is, hopefully, if you
pick up the start with welcomebook that's just been released,
you will get a full biblicalconversation that maybe you've
never had before. And it's aconversation about how does this
fit in your pro life worldview?
How does what does the Bible sayabout this? What has been going

(31:52):
on in partisan politics that hasentangled us so much? How do we
detangle from that we're notdeconstructing our faith, we're
detangling from some reallyunhealthy and probably toxic and
idealistic things that we havereally set on the mantle above
what our heart posture should betowards vulnerable people. And I
think so first and foremost, Ithink we have to dive into what

(32:13):
the Bible says and let Godreally shape and kind of convict
us of where we are and how wehave been aloof on this matter,
or we have been really angry, orreally unhelpful in this matter.
But I also think that there areways to get involved. And there
is one very specific way thatreally the the US government is
asking for people of faith tohelp. And that is there is

(32:36):
currently a private refugeesponsorship program that the US
has never done before. And it'sbrand new in the history of the
US. Canada has been doing it fora very long time, this private
refugee sponsorship program. Andthen like we just mentioned,
there are 35 million refugeeswho have already been thoroughly
vetted by the UN, and determinedthat they are refugees, and they

(32:59):
are living in refugee campsaround the world. And then they
need to be welcomed intocountries. And so for the first
time ever, private citizens ofthe United States can welcome
refugees. So that used to justbe done through government
resettlement agencies. And sonow, private everyday citizens
can do this. And my small group,and my church is doing this, we

(33:21):
have eight couples in our group,you have to have a minimum of
five people to welcome a refugeefamily. And you have to raise a
certain amount of money. And youhave to kind of just sign up and
say, Yes, we will welcome thisfamily, but you can welcome a
refugee family through a smallgroup of your friends or your
Bible study, you can start doingthat today. And these are people
who are already been vetted andare just waiting for welcome. So

(33:44):
you could sign up to become asponsor of a refugee family. And
that's something that you caneither DM me or women of welcome
about. I'm sure you have shownotes that can link people to
that. But I also just thinkkeeping your curiosity in tact
about the people who are aroundyou in your community, use your
voice well in the public sphere.

(34:06):
And in all the public policy andand all the partisan politics,
your voice should be different.
It shouldn't be attached to oneperson or one thing it should
only be attached to Jesus and itshould be edifying and helpful
for others around you. But ontop of that, then keeping a
healthy dose of curiosity forthe community around you. Why
don't you have margin to seepeople? Where are they are? Why

(34:29):
don't you see immigrants orrefugees in your community? Why
don't you spend time with theplaces that you donate to? You
know, if you donate to ahomeless shelter, are you
participating in the mentorshipprogram for that community? If
you are, doesn't matter,whatever issue your could be the
pregnancy center in town couldbe the anti trafficking movement
in town. Are you spending timeby gifting your presence in

(34:51):
those places that provide alevel of proximity that your
paycheck cannot? So that wouldbe my thing I will To say,
hopefully pick up a copy of thebook because that is going to
give you the full conversation.
And then I think, you know,getting into your Bible, and
then also getting close inproximity, signing up for some
things that are going to stretchyou, I think is how we become

(35:12):
more like Christ in these ways.
A

lot of those things are really uncomfortable.
And, you know, we, we had agroup at our church that, you
know, my wife led to welcome afamily from Afghanistan and to
Kansas City. And it was a lot ofwork. And, you know, you're,
you're sitting there, you're,you're helping them rent places,

(35:38):
you're helping them get possumsout of the basement. Yeah,
you're helping them get thatcar, you're translating for a
whole bunch of different things.
I mean, there's all sorts ofthings that you're doing. And a
lot of it is like getting intothis uncomfortableness of of
doing it. Like, I think just alot of people are complacent,

(35:58):
because they don't want to beuncomfortable. It scares them to
be uncomfortable. They're in acomfortable position. How do we
move people from a place ofcomfort into willingness to be
uncomfortable, and enter intosomething that they're scared
of?

You have to go scared? You You know, John Wayne
has this quote, of courage isbeing scared to death but
saddling up anyway. And I lovethat because God doesn't say go
and do this work without me. Hesays, I'm already there. Can you
come meet me where you are, youknow, when I take people down
for immersion experiences at theborder, I just say I want to be

(36:38):
very clear, we are not coming tobring God to this place. He is
already here. He is alive andwell. And we are here to see him
working in spaces that we couldnever imagine living in the
insert in situations that wecould never imagine finding
ourselves or our family. Andlikely, maybe, yeah. And so you

(36:59):
have to tell yourself thatyou're gonna go scared and you
have to want Jesus, you have towant to be like Jesus, there has
to be something that the HolySpirit says to you, that says,
Alright, do you want to be morelike yourself? Or do you want to
continue to grow and be likeJesus, because I want to put you
in, in situations that are goingto be uncomfortable, but they're

(37:22):
going to make you more Christlike and that is the goal for
every Christian is to be moreChrist like so. We're not
actually supposed to get to aplace of comfort. I think
comfort is actually cripplingAmerican comfort. Evangelical
comfort is crippling the church.
And if you think about how wekeep praying for revival, and we
keep praying for God's presence,in schools, and in government,

(37:46):
and all these things we want toparticipate in all of this
revival we want to see, well,how do you think revival comes,
it comes from the people of God,showing up and acting in
pathetic ways, and Christlikeways to reach people who are in
a lot of pain and can't see pastthat pain, and who are in a lot

(38:07):
of vulnerability and are lookingfor a lifeline. They're looking
for daily bread. And we have allthe bread that we could be
handing out to the world andpeople who are in pain. And so I
think you have to want Jesus, Ithink you have to want to keep
moving in ways that stretch youbecause your comfort is

(38:30):
crippling you. And it's honestlyprobably most likely keeping
your faith very stagnant andlukewarm, which doesn't change
the world. The world is notchanged by an angry tweet, it
does not change by you gettingupset with other people. It's
changed by radical love andhospitality, which is what all

(38:50):
of Jesus's followers were, like,confused about. Even way back
when when the disciples werelike, I don't see why we are
eating with these people. I donot understand why you're not
yelling at this Roman guard. Ido not understand why you're not
upset. And she says like, well,I'm I'm definitely upset with
this, like business productionyou have going on inside the

(39:13):
lobby of the church. I'mdefinitely upset with the
Pharisees who are keeping you ata distance where you feel safe
and will you feel a betterstature and standing. I'm upset
with that. I'm not upset withthese people who are lost
because they're lost. So I'vecome to seek and save the lost
and if we're not about that,then we were missing it in a big

(39:33):
way.

No, one of the things that I realized living in
proximity to refugees is that II seldom welcomed them into my
own home. But I I learned how tobe a good guest and their home
and their place in their tentthat they were living in. I was

(39:59):
at guests and you know, lookingat Jesus's life, Jesus didn't
welcome people in his own homein his ministry, he was a good
guest everywhere he went, whatdoes it look like for us to take
a posture of curiosity andlearning from the people that
where we are also welcoming intothis country?

We have so much to learn. I mean, the world is at
our doorstep. I mean, wecontinually send people like I
mean, this is what we do, right?
Churches are sendingmissionaries were supporting
missionaries, we're writingchecks, to support missions, all
of these things were goingaround the world, and yet, the
world is at our doorstep.
They're right here. And a lot oftimes what we hear from

(40:43):
Christians is they're like, Wewant to help you where you are.
We don't want actually want youhere. And that's why we have you
kind of pulled the welcome matout from, you know, the southern
border and there because we'veentangled it and all of these
other things, right? And so whenI'm going to answer your
question, because people arecoming, people are coming here,

(41:05):
and then they're getting set up,and they're trying to establish
a life and they're trying tostart over. And yet they, they
come from all of these cultures,where hospital hospitality is
the way in which you just dolife, like you are always giving
the best of what you have,you're always making the biggest
meal for your guests, even ifyou can't afford it, you are
doing that. And while we go outon missions trips, and we do all

(41:30):
of these things in othercountries, we are guests in
their country, and they'rehosting us well welcoming us
well. The American church shouldget good at hospitality here in
America, we should be the bestat welcoming, because we are
Christians, because we are aglobal church. We're not the
American church, we're theglobal church. And so there are

(41:52):
people who are coming, and theyand they're not being invited
into American homes, which issad. And if you talk to
immigrants who are here, it'svery, very rare that you will
find one who will say, Yes, Iwas welcomed here. And they will
probably welcome you into theirhome. And so what part of being

(42:13):
a good guest in their home partof being a good guest to someone
who's trying to find a new lifein your community is a posture
of learning, and a posture ofcuriosity, listening wed to deep
curiosity and authentic love forthat person. I don't know you,
but I want to love you. Well,what can I learn from you? That,

(42:35):
that I don't know? What can Ilearn about your culture? What
could because listening, wed tolike deep empathy for someone is
how you actually get to knowthem well enough to offer them
Jesus, you know, so if we don'tunderstand all of the trauma
that they have been through,when they choose to share it, if
they ever do, when we when wedon't understand what culture

(42:57):
they're coming from, or whattheir family history is, or what
they've seen or what they'repassionate about. How can we
actually really connect in avery personal and prophetic way
to people that we don't know. Asa guest, you show up and you
listen well, so that you canlearn? What are the ways in
which I can love this personwell, and love them so well,

(43:20):
that they're going to ask me,Why do you love me like this?
Why are you interested in me?
Why do you keep showing up andspending time with me? Why do
you keep inviting my kids tobirthday parties and play dates?
Well, it's because I love Jesus.
And Jesus told me that I was tolove you. And then there you go.
And then there's the onramp.
It's just like this little girlthat reached out to this boy who

(43:42):
was stuck out like a sore thumbdidn't speak the language. He's
Middle Eastern, you know, andhe's put in this public school
and this little 11 year oldAmerican Girl befriends him and
he comes to know Jesus. It is,it's very simple. Yeah, you have
to get over your you have to getover how uncomfortable it is.

(44:04):
And you have to let there beawkward silence. And there you
have to let there be, you know,cultural, faux pas and all kinds
of things. You know, we've gotdozens of stories over in our
women of welcome community, justentering in and getting over
that hump of being scared, butthen just like, oh, I, I brought
them a pizza, and they're aMuslim family, and I brought

(44:26):
them a piece that has meat onit. Wow, that was the right leg.
They don't need, you know, soit's like, okay, so then you
just laugh about it together.
And you let that be a cherishedmemory of how, you know, the
Lord helped humble you in a verysweet way. And then you went out
to the grocery store togetherand bought a new meal for
dinner. You know, it's like,just show up, just show up. See

(44:47):
what God does?

Yeah, it's just like, you know, our friends came
over there from Iraq, and wehaven't seen him in a long time.
And so my wife got reallyexcited and she accidentally
kissed the husband. Both bothcheeks as like you, she would
have done with with the wife,you know. And they were just sat
back and we just laughed. Andyou know, my wife was like, I'm

(45:09):
sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. Itwas just, I was just overjoyed
to see you. I'm so sorry.
Because we're, you're enteringinto that space. And so,
mistakes are mistakes, we'regonna have those all the time.
And it's okay. And the peopleare very gracious. And they know
that, you know, we're fromdifferent cultures, and that we
can make those mistakestogether. So, yeah, that's

(45:30):
really good. We need to do that.
I think one of the issues thatwe I mean, we haven't really
touched a lot on immigrationitself, and then policy, and I'd
love to just briefly helppeople, especially if they're,
you know, in the US, so or inother parts of the world? What

(45:51):
are some of these commonmisconceptions that we have
about immigration?

Well, I think some of the common misconceptions is
that one particular partydoesn't, right, and has gotten
it right. And really, when youlook back through the history,
and I talked about this in thebook, there's a whole chapter
dedicated to this, and for whois welcome here. And in that
chapter, we go through thehistory of past presidents and
administrations, and we talkthrough what has been helpful in

(46:17):
those administrations and whathas not been helpful, what's
been positive, what's beenreally harmful. And it's very
interesting to go back and justrealize that every
administration has mishandledthis, this is we've never gotten
this right. And so there aretheir faults and ownership to be

(46:37):
had on both sides of the fence.
And, you know, our community,women of welcome is strictly
nonpartisan, and I don't engagein partisan politics, because
whatever, you know, if you wantto whatever side, you're on,
fine, great, we need advocateson both sides of the fence. So I
don't care if you're a Democrator Republican, or if you're
independent. We need yourcompassionate and convictional

(46:57):
prophetic voice on both sides ofthe fence, if you call it that,
right. And so I actually am notnecessarily interested in where
you fall, politically, and whatplatform you're aligned with.
Hopefully, you're aligned with abigger platform, which is
Jesus's platform, which doesn'talign perfectly with either
party's platform, we have tojust keep in mind that it

(47:18):
doesn't. And I think a lot of ushad been raised to think that it
does, and I certainly was. Andso when you look back, and you
see that each administration hasdone harm and has done some
good, then you realize this is areally, really agenda feel
filled. Topic, just like, youknow, and and be like, I don't

(47:42):
want to talk about it, becauseit's political. Well, I know
you, I know, you'll talk aboutabortion. And that's political.
I know, you'll talk about otherhuman dignity issues, and those
are political. Will we have togo back to is what about people?
I don't want to have aconversation about personnel
politics, I want to talk aboutpeople do you want to help
people, you want to talk aboutindividual image bearers, who

(48:04):
are caught in a really brokensystem. And so so many of them,
we're not talking about thosewho want to enter illegally
innovate Border Patrol, and I'mtalking about that group, we can
all agree that we don't wantillegal entry, and we want
people to be vetted. And we wantto know who's coming in and out
of the country, we can all agreethere. But what we're talking
about is people who are showingup at the border, the vast
majority of people showing up atthe border right now are looking

(48:24):
to find Border Patrol, and thenthey want to submit themselves
to the thorough vetting of thecountry and say, All right, try
me and see if I am allowed tostay, I don't want to live in
the shadows like I was in my owncommunity, here in the US. So
it's a, it's an attempt to comea legal way through the asylum
process. And so there are someadjustments that need to be made

(48:45):
to the asylum process, we haveto have some sort of cap on the
asylum process, or we have tohave a faster way to adjudicate
claims so that people are eitherallowed to stay and start
working and start flourishing,or be repatriated back home. So
there are solutions to be had.
But there because of partisanpolitics, it has gotten so

(49:07):
incredibly divisive. Andthere's, there's reasons for why
there aren't solutions. Andthat's unfortunate. So as
evangelicals as Christians, wehave got to hold our elected
officials accountable and say,Hey, I need you to find a
solution here. And you know what77% of self identified
evangelicalism say that theywant comprehensive immigration

(49:30):
reform this year. So brand newstudy out a couple of weeks ago
from LifeWay Research. 77% ofpeople with average local
beliefs and self identifiedevangelicalism, they want
comprehensive immigration reformbefore the year is out. They're
seeing the issue, right. And 91%of Evangelicals want safe and
secure borders, and they wantpolicies that actually affirm

(49:51):
the dignity of people who arecreated in the image of God. So
it's not that there isn't ademand for this. It's that there
hasn't been a consistent voicecalling out the accountability
of those who are in power, whichis Congress to make immigration.
So then what you have is youhave presidents coming in and
doing these band-aid executiveorders of law interpretation or

(50:14):
you know, kind of piecemealthings at the border. And it
really has caused great harm topeople. It's caused all kinds of
other implications and othercountries. And it has ruined
kind of our diplomatic witnessacross the world. And so when
you have 91% of our churchcommunity, saying, we, we want
to do both things, that we needto be using our voice with our

(50:37):
elected officials to say, getthis done, you can do this, we
want you to take out all of the,the circus, and we want to talk
about people. And we want to getthis done not only for the
American people, but for thosewho are showing up at our
border, and for those who areseeking thrashing around the
globe. So I think it'ssurprising about how politically

(50:57):
motivated people are to not finda solution. And that's where the
everyday citizen comes in, wherewe have to use our voice. Well,
I'll tell you one of the mostsurprising things about entering
into this immigration space.
When I first came in, about six,seven years ago, I thought I was
just very like eyes wide open,every conversation I'm going to
get in. At some point, someoneis going to present to me that

(51:20):
the most compassionate thing wecan do is to have open borders,
I was just like, looking for itaround every single corner. And
I have talked with the Bidenadministration, I've talked with
the Trump administration, I havetalked with people all over
Capitol Hill. And never once,never once Has anyone ever

(51:40):
brought up open borders as asolution as a compassionate
policy as the right way forward,because after 911 is not
actually a viable credibleoption to put on the table. We
have to secure safety forAmerican citizens, we have to
know who's coming across ourborders. But that doesn't mean

(52:01):
you shut down the border thatwould ruin the American economy
that would also ruin our witnessor diplomatic relations around
the world for people who aretruly fleeing persecution, and
want to come for legal ways ofworking and contributing. And so
I think we have to get closeenough to actually understand
that the narrative is verydifferent than what partisan

(52:23):
politics will put in front ofus. And that is what changed my
perspective on all this wasgetting close enough to see and
hear stories that I'd never beentold before. And also be given
permission to hold the tensionof the both end, that safe and
secure borders and humanetreatment of people are not
mutually exclusive concepts. Andthat it doesn't matter what side

(52:43):
of the fence you're on. Becauseyour vote no matter who you vote
for is going to be imperfect. Sowhat that means is the year is
in between matter. And you'vegot to use your voice to hold
people accountable to do theirjob in the years in between. And
so I think people are sick ofthe circus, and they want to
find solutions. And we are partof the solution because we have
to hold people accountable tofind those solutions. Yeah,

really good.
Really good. Bri I love thisbook, start with welcome. What
would you hope readers would do?
How would you want them to, toutilize this book? And what
where would you want people togo from after after reading
that?

So this is a book that is a conversation. It's not
a heady academic book, there arereally, really great books about
immigration already floating outin the world. And I have them
all over my shelf. I love them.
This is the book that it has isa kind of a laypersons
conversation about what does theBible say about immigration?
What does how does this even fitin kind of our holistic pro life

(53:41):
ethic? What has been going onhistorically, you know, just who
is welcomed here? Why have theybeen welcomed here who's not
welcomed here. And it's reallythe conversation that you never
knew you could have aboutimmigration, it maybe it's one
that you never thought youwanted to have. But this is the
book that you could hand tosomebody and say, This is the

(54:03):
conversation I don't know how tohave yet but this is the
conversation we should behaving. So after each chapter,
there are nine chapters, thereis a small group kind of
conversation page. So I'd lovefor people to go through this
with their Bible studies. I'dlove for people who are on the
more progressive side of things,and maybe aren't involved in
church and maybe have maybedeconstructed and they're like,

(54:24):
I don't, I don't really belongthere. And people don't
understand why I'm here overhere over here loving and
seeking justice and other waysthat I don't see other people
doing. This is the book that youhand people that says you know
what, here's a charitableconversation that's probably
going to meet you right whereyou are. Your fears are intact,
but so is your compassion. Andso this is just going to attach

(54:46):
confidence to that compassionthat you have and have a
charitable conversation thatsays, Yeah, show up with your
fears, show up with your messyquestions. And if we're just
going to figure out all of thistogether in a way that It
doesn't dehumanize you, doesn'tdemonize you for feeling the way
that you feel but invites youinto, hopefully a better and
more Christ like conversationabout a group of people that God

(55:09):
really does care about.

That's really good. I hope people use it that
way. And they enter into thisconversation. And they can start
to see people and set of issuesand then gain some proximity
towards those people and get toknow people's names and their
stories and who they are and notjust see them as then
immigration blob at the southernborder, that they have things

(55:35):
that have to do to be able toenter in or they're scary and
things are gonna, you know, Iwant people to see people as
people and image bearers, as yousaid, yeah, leave the partisan

politics aside and just talk about people we, as
Christians need to be having abetter conversation about this.
And this is a book that helpsyou have a better conversation.

Bree, if you could go back to your 21 year
old self, what advice would yougive, go

scared, I would tell myself that I grew up a
very fear filled kid. I mean, Iwas a Christian kid in the 80s
and 90s. I've read every youknow, Tim, like a book about,
you know, the rapture, and allthe things you know, as fire and
brimstone from the start. No.
And so I grew up with just a lotof fear. But am I getting this
right? Am I doing? Am I sure Iwas a pastor's kid, too, you

(56:19):
know. So you grew up in afishbowl. And so I just was
always kind of entering intolife walking on eggshells and
wondering if I was doing thisright. So I'd go back and just
say, saddle up anyway. And, youknow, oh, scared, go scared, but
go do it.

Anything you've been reading or watching lately,
you could recommend. There's

lots of great books out there. You're gonna
make me pick one. My goodness.

Now you could you could pick you could pick
four or five. just rattle themoff. Look, I

haven't started.
haven't started. But I just gotin the mail, because it was
recommended was strangereligion. I don't even know who
it's by. This is how Vijay

Gupta,

Unknown (56:57):
thank you.

If you go back, you can listen to him on my
podcast, too. Because it'sgreat. I

think Kat Armstrong recommended his book.
And I just clicked on Amazon andbought it and I didn't even read
who it was by it was like, itjust sounds fascinating. So I'm
not going to dive strangereligion.

Awesome. Well, it is a great book, you're going
to enjoy it, you're gonna loveit. And you'll you'll get to see
early Christianity and in adifferent way. And they see
first century Greco Romanculture in a way that you've
really never thought of it. Soit's really helpful. Very
forward. Yeah, Bri how canpeople go out and get your book
connect with you? Where wouldyou like to point people to?

I mean, Amazon, I think is the easiest, right? And
then hopefully, if you like thebook, you can leave a good
review. But Amazon anywherebooks are sold. And I'm on
Instagram, at Bri dot Stens. Orat women of welcome. So hope to
find you there. Awesome.

Well, Bree, thank you for this conversation.
It was it was really great to beable to get into this place
where we see people hear theirstories, you get to be actually
close to them, to know theirname that we could actually
interact and be compassionatepeople that look like Jesus. We
could walk them well. And wecould point people to the way so

(58:15):
thank you so much for thisconversation. It was great.
Thank you for having me.

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Ep. 177 Bri Stensrud - Welcoming Immigrants and Refugees with Compassion

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Ep. 177 Bri Stensrud - Welcoming Immigrants and Refugees with Compassion