May 10, 2024 • 55 mins
In this episode, Grace Ji-Sun Kim discusses her experience immigrating to Canada from Korea as a child and facing racism. She talks about how Christianity became associated with whiteness over time as it spread in Europe, with Jesus portrayed as a white man. Grace explains that the concept of race and whiteness are social constructs used to maintain power structures. We unpack the idea of a white God and try to figure out how to present Jesus without cultural overlays. Grace also emphasizes celebrating differences and learning from other cultures to better understand God and each other. So join us as we reflect how easy it is to make God in our own image.
Grace Ji-Sun Kim (PhD, University of Toronto) is professor of theology at Earlham School of Religion in Richmond, Indiana. She is the host of the Madang podcast and has published in TIME, Huffington Post, US Catholic, and The Nation. She is an ordained PC(USA) minister and enjoys being a guest preacher on most Sundays. Her many books include Invisible, Reimagining Spirit, and Healing Our Broken Humanity. She and her spouse, Perry, have three young adult children and live in Bethlehem, Pennsylvania.
Grace's Book:
When God Became White
Grace's Recommendation:
The Not-Yet God by Ilia Delio
Connect with Joshua: jjohnson@allnations.us
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Grace Ji-Sun Kim (00:00):
When Jesus did his ministry, he didn't expect
(00:02):
everybody to be the same. He he,you know, he talked to the
Samaritan woman, you know, shetaught he was wet the lepers,
you know, he, he talked tovarious people. So it wasn't
like, Oh, everybody be the same.
It is all these differences thatmake this body of Christ so
beautiful and so rich.
Joshua Johnson (00:39):
Hello, and welcome to the shifting culture
podcast in which we haveconversations about the culture
we create, and the impact we canmake. We longed to see the body
of Christ look like Jesus. I'myour host, Joshua Johnson. Go to
shifting culture podcast.com tointeract and donate. And don't
forget to hit the Follow buttonon your favorite podcast app to
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(01:00):
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Thank you so much. You know whatelse would help us out? share
this podcast with your friends,your family, your network? Tell
them how much you enjoy it andlet them know that they should
(01:21):
be listening as well. If you'renew here, welcome. If you want
to dig deeper find us on socialmedia at shifting culture
podcast where I post video clipsand quotes and interact with all
of you. Previous guests on theshow have included Craig
Greenfield drew Qian and nutmegPanahi. You can go back listen
to those episodes and more. Buttoday's guest is Grace G son
(01:41):
Kim. Grace is Professor ofTheology at Earlham School of
Religion in Richmond, Indiana.
She is the host of the Madangpodcasts and has published in
time Huffington Post us Catholicand the nation. She is an
ordained PCUSA minister andenjoys being a guest preacher on
(02:02):
most Sundays are many booksinclude invisible reimagining
spirits and healing are brokenhumanity. Her latest book is
when God became white. In thisepisode, Grace JSON. Kim
discusses her experienceimmigrating to Canada from Korea
as a child and facing racism.
She talks about how Christianitybecame associated with whiteness
(02:22):
over time as it spread inEurope. Grace explains that the
concept of race and whitenessare social constructs used to
maintain power structures. So weunpack the idea of a white God
and try to figure out how topresent Jesus without cultural
overlays. Grace also emphasizescelebrating our differences and
learning from other cultures tobetter understand God and each
(02:45):
other. So join us as we reflecthow easy it is to make God in
our own image. Here is myconversation with Grace G son,
Kim. Grace, welcome to shiftingculture. Really excited to have
you on. Thank you for joiningme.
Grace Ji-Sun Kim (03:02):
I will thank you so much for having me. It's
a pleasure to be on yourpodcast.
Joshua Johnson (03:06):
Yeah, I'm looking forward to the
conversation, I think importantconversation that we're gonna
have. I'd love to start withyour story as an immigrant from
Korea into Canada. And what wasyour experience like? I
Grace Ji-Sun Kim (03:23):
was quite young. So when we immigrated I
started halfway throughkindergarten. We arrived in
January 1975. It was reallycold. We landed in Toronto, but
like, couple of weeks later, wejust moved to a small city
called London, Ontario. Andgrowing up there not knowing
English. You know, it wasn'tthat easy. And it's much, much
(03:46):
colder and much more snow thanKorea, that I remember as a kid.
So there was a lot ofadjustment. And I think just
right off from the beginning,the experience of racism was
felt in school, in thekindergarten class and I
attended. So that has alwaysbeen with me these experiences
(04:10):
of racism. So many of my booksand writings deal with racism in
one way or another. And thisbook when God became white,
certainly touches on racism.
Joshua Johnson (04:24):
Yes, it does. So then continue just to walk us
through what you you felt likeand then as your your parents
were able to drop you off atdifferent churches. What was
your experience, like as youstarted to encounter the church
for the first time?
Grace Ji-Sun Kim (04:45):
You know, the experiences of racism was very
common for many Koreanimmigrants. There were a few
other families that lived in thesame apartment complex. And so,
London, Ontario predominantlywhite and Anglo Saxon Protestant
city, you know, now with someKorean immigrant families, they
(05:07):
were very racist, you know,calling names and during the eye
poll and just racial slurs itwas on a daily basis. So it was
very difficult and I would gohome crying, and people wouldn't
make fun of, there's no suchplace as Korea. So it, you know,
it was kind of a traumaticexperience from, you know, this
(05:30):
homogeneous country, Korea whereI grew up and spoke Korean, and
that was surrounded by so manyloving family members to be and
all of a sudden, overnight, bein this isolated, cold
environment. It was it was verydifficult. So after a couple
years, a lady in the apartment,that Korean lady said, my sister
(05:56):
and I wanted to come to theKorean church, our parents, you
know, we didn't go to church orwe didn't attend church in
Korea. We just decided to go,you know, something to do to
kill time on a Sunday afternoon.
We didn't have any extendedfamily. So we just started going
to church with her and it wasfine. And then a year or so
later, my parents decided to go.
(06:20):
I think, at the time and manyimmigrant churches today, the
church is more than a place ofworship. It's a place where you
make friends have extended, youknow, gatherings, Christmas,
Thanksgiving, whatever holidays,because many immigrants don't
have extended family. It was aplace to find employment,
(06:43):
friendship, and so it was waymore than a church. So my
parents went and they enjoyedit. And as you mentioned, my dad
decided to drop my sister andoff in various churches. So
Korean church was always in arented of church building. So we
would worship on a Sundayafternoon. And that's still very
(07:04):
common for many immigrantchurches that can't afford to
have their own building. SoSunday morning, my dad dropped
us off at this large BaptistChurch. And then Sunday
evenings, we went to another itwas a very small Baptist Church,
it was a Sunday evening worship,not many people. And then mid
(07:27):
week, we went to various otherchurches, Friday nights, we went
to some Missionary AllianceChurch. So there was a lot of
church. And, you know, my dadwas the one that just dropped us
off. And we didn't mind we justwent. And looking back, I am
pretty sure it was free Englishclasses for us, because, you
(07:48):
know, we were still strugglingwith English and you know,
learning it is not learning asecond language or third
language or fourth language,it's always difficult,
especially if you don't speak itin the whole, you're only
speaking outside the home. SoI'm pretty sure that was part of
the reason why he just droppedus off at various churches, but
(08:09):
you know, left good memories.
Being plopped at places where Idon't know anybody. And then you
just have to quickly decide sitthere and either make friends or
just Just do your own thing andcome back home.
Joshua Johnson (08:26):
And one of the things about the the immigrant
experience is that it's reallydifficult for people that are
not immigrants to to putthemselves in their shoes,
saying, You're you're going intoa totally different culture, new
language, new home new place,you feel very disoriented. And
(08:47):
on top of that, since you notonly are from other places, you
look different as well, peoplewill not treat you very well. So
you you feel like an outsider inmultiple ways. Was there any any
sense from anybody that helpedyou transition? Or was that what
(09:08):
was a helpful piece to help youtransition?
Grace Ji-Sun Kim (09:13):
I don't know if there was any helpful piece
for the transition. Except forthat there were other Korean
immigrant families, many Koreanimmigrants came in the 1970s,
both to the US and to Canada.
And most of them were youngparents with young kids. So it
wasn't they weren't bringinglike teenagers. It was really
(09:33):
like five year old six yearolds, because, you know, it's
hard to emigrate when you haveolder kids. So it was a young
couples who decided to start afresh life in a new country. It
was after the war. You know,Korea was doing so poorly
economically. So for those whowanted a better life for their
(09:54):
young kids, they emigrated so Ithink the only kind of say When
Grace was, there were otherkids, my age that we kind of
hung around with, where, youknow, there was that
familiarity, we felt morecomfortable than in the white
predominant, you know, thepredominant white culture and
society. We see Europeansemigrate to us, it's not that
(10:18):
much of a change. There is, ofcourse, some change, but it's
not as dramatic. Because you canassimilate quickly, even if you
speak French, or Spanish,because you look white, it's
easy, you can easily assimilate,and your accent is preferred
over Asian accents. So there isall these other things that are
(10:43):
happening, to make it reallydifficult for people from Asia
or Africa to kind of make US orCanada, their new home. So you
know, it wasn't easy, I stillhave lots of memories of having
difficulty assimilating intointo the country. And being
(11:06):
accepted. It's not that easy.
Joshua Johnson (11:12):
So as you're encountering a predominantly
white culture, and whiteness,you you write in your book, when
God became white, you writeabout the rise of Western
Christianity, and then Westernism as a whole. And then you
write about race, and how whiteactually started a little bit
(11:33):
later. What is the construct ofrace? Where did race come from?
And where did where didwhiteness come from?
Grace Ji-Sun Kim (11:42):
Well, you know, race is a socially
constructed concept. It was usedto divide people, you know, we
are one human being one humanbody on Earth. But this notion
of race, to make one person, onegroup, with maybe fair skin,
(12:06):
versus darker skin, that thefair skinned people are better.
It's a strange concept, but ithas been around for a long time.
And it gets embedded in our wayof thinking, and how we behave
globally, especially in aglobalized world now, where it's
(12:27):
easy to fly, and you know, theweb, it's easy to connect. And
when you tie that intoChristianity, you know, Jesus
was a dark Palestinian Jew. But,you know, living under the Roman
Empire, crucified under theRoman Empire. So you have this
Roman Empire that had spreadinto the area. And when
(12:51):
Christianity spread to Europe,suddenly, Christianity became
white under Westernwesternization. So when we're,
you know, right now, Gaza is inthe news all the time, one of
the oldest churches in the worldis in Gaza. And we forget that
because Christianity itself hasbecome so white, it has become
(13:15):
so westernized. It's almost likeassociated with white
imperialism. We have, you know,made Jesus white, you know, and
all of a sudden, this homeless,roaming kind of Rabbi, teacher,
healer, becomes this fairskinned blue eyed, blond hair,
(13:40):
Emperor look in a glass windowsand paintings, and carvings.
It's unbelievable how whiteChristians in Europe had changed
Jesus to look like themselves.
So then you can tie that in withthis concept of whiteness, which
is also shaped, sociallyconstructed. So we have, you
(14:00):
know, this idea of white people.
And we also have to rememberthat white people were not a was
not a homogeneous group as whatwe may think today, because some
people were not consideredwhite, and then they become
white. An example would be theIrish, lower class, Europeans
(14:24):
who are not considered white.
But then, you know, with thisnotion of race and racism, other
people got added into who whitepeople are. So we have to
understand this. This constructof race is socially constructed
to keep some people in power andto take away power from other
people. So keeping that in mind,and so this understanding of
(14:49):
white people has been fluid andhas changed. You know, Jewish
people are now considered white.
So it is a flu Really concept,and we have to keep that in mind
to understand how this whitenessworks. So whiteness itself is a
socially constructed concept.
But it is more than thisunderstanding of white people,
(15:12):
it is all these social ideas,these ways of behavior, the way
of thinking that really putsinto place, a hierarchy of
people, and white people are atthe top, and everyone else falls
below. So we have to understandit's a very powerful concept
(15:32):
that comes into play within oursociety or culture, and even
within our Christian religion,and how we view the world. So
you know, it's all it's aboutpower, and who gets to hold
power. So understanding thatwill help us understand why
(15:55):
white people have more powerthan the rest of us. And, you
know, when we think globally,you know, here in the US, Asian
Americans are about six to 7% ofthe population. Well, in that
way, we are marginalized. So youknow, I'm not born a minority,
I'm minority, I'm minoritized, Iam made marginalized, and I am,
(16:20):
you know, oppressed because ofwho I am. But in the global
sense, Asians make up 60% of theworld population, we are the
majority. But still, this powerof whiteness still is fierce,
and it's overpowering, that itstill makes white people over us
(16:46):
as
Joshua Johnson (16:50):
a social construct. It's, it's
interesting to figure out that aif race was just made, as a
social construct, and keeppeople in power, and to
delineate others so that slaverycould happen, other things can
happen so that that power isaccumulated. Some people get
caught up in that. So for aJesus following Christian, not a
(17:16):
cultural Christian, but a Jesusfollowing a Christian that wants
to have humility and start towalk in the ways of, of Jesus in
the world. How do we start torecognize some of the power
structures if, like, forexample, for me, because I, I am
a white male, I don't have toconstantly be thinking about
(17:37):
race, like, that's just, I don'thave to because of my, my life
in the world doesn't necessitatethat. How do how do we start to,
to think about our own culture,our own place in society, and
start to dismantle the idea ofone people over another people?
Grace Ji-Sun Kim (18:02):
And that's a big question. So, you know, just
as you said, you don't have tothink about race. That's the
power of whiteness, that whitepeople don't have to think about
it. While the rest of us we haveto think about it constantly,
either by ourselves, or whatsociety does to us. So I think
as Christ's believing people, wehave to understand how this
(18:29):
notion of race gets played out,and how racism works in our
society. And what whitenessdoes, it's a learned behavior.
So when we think about theevolution of Christ, I don't
know, I just kind of made upthat term right now, how Jesus
became white, we have to nameit, because Christianity, for
(18:54):
the last 2000 years have nevernamed it, we insist that he is
this white, European male. Andwhen the white missionaries went
out into the world, that's themessage that they gave us. It's
in the book, I do talk aboutworner Solomon's image, that
(19:15):
image, the head of Christ, headof Christ image, because my
mother had that image, you know,we want that portrait in our
house. Many Korean churches haveit. And when I was in seminary,
I was chosen to go to India forthe summer. And so many Indian
churches had this head ofChrist. And we all believe that
(19:38):
this is how Jesus looked likesome white male, European
figure. So I think we have torecognize that white Europeans
have made God in their image orJesus in their image. Because
when we think about it, none ofus have seen God. One of us
(20:00):
Absolutely no one. And it saysyou cannot see the face of God
and live. So none of us have.
But Christianity itself has keptteaching that God is a white
male god. Until recently, nobodyreally questioned it. You know,
with the rise of the feministmovement in the 1960s, yes, some
of the feminist theologians arequestioning this. Why is God a
(20:23):
man? And why is God white? Well,I'm questioning now the
whiteness of God, and in a fewother people are theologians.
But we really need to questionthis because Mary Daly, who used
to teach at Boston College, shesaid, If God is male, than the
male is God, you know, we havethis kind of relational
(20:47):
understanding we, you know, evenif scripture says do not make
God in thy own image, you know,in graven image, we do that all
the time. And then when artistsdecide to, to depict Jesus as an
Asian man, or an African man,you know, there's an uproar, you
know, how dare you do that? ButWhite Europeans have been doing
(21:08):
that for the last 2000 years.
And, and when white people doit, it seems okay. So there's a
lot of things that we have toquestion. We have to rethink,
you know, because in the Bible,yes, there are those masculine
images of God. But also, there'sfeminine images of God, all
(21:29):
throughout the Bible. And afterI wrote this book, during
research for another book, theterm Yawei, you know, the four
syllable, y h, w. H, originally,it was yhW, it was a three
letter. And then these, youknow, somehow added the age, and
(21:49):
you have to recognize also thatthe Israelites, it was an oral
tradition, things weren't beingwritten down, you know, the
priestly tradition, all thesetraditions, they were, they were
being told orally. And until theprinting age, everything was
kind of orally transmitted. Sostories were told, and, and
that's how people came tounderstand who God is. So the,
(22:13):
the short, and the three letterword. Many of the Jewish
scholars said that's pronouncedas who he, and I don't know if
I'm saying it, right, but Hu Hi. And that actually means he
she, so God was understood, asshe she, you know, in the
(22:34):
really, really early traditionsof the Israelites. And when you
when you hear about thoseterminologies, and you think,
how did that happen? Well, manyof the Egyptians, at that time,
believed, you know, Pharaoh wasGod, you know, pharaohs, kind of
like this incarnation of God, orPharaoh is their God. And they
(22:57):
all believe that Pharaoh was ahe, she, a pharaoh was both a
man and a woman, because that'show divine beings were
portrayed. And when you thinkabout Genesis, you know, God
says, I created Adam andwhatever Eve, however, you're
going to name it in my ownimage. So if it was in God's
(23:20):
image, God's image is bothmasculine and feminine. But
anyway, these are other thingsthat you can ponder about. I
don't have it all in my book.
But I think it's important torecognize that there are all
these other images of who God iswithin the Old Testament and New
Testament. But for the last 2000years, we've been really focused
(23:40):
on a male god and a white God.
Joshua Johnson (23:48):
It's been a long time. And you know, as things
shifted into western Westerncountries and places into Europe
and into America, you know,Christianity itself now is, is
there's predominantly in theGlobal South, in Asia, there are
more Christians than there arein Western countries at the
(24:10):
moment. And those things arestarting to shift and change.
And so even when I lived inKorea for two years, and I
worked with a church and Itaught English, the school in
our boarding school, we had astatue of a Korean Jesus, like
it was Jesus looked very Korean.
Is there I'm seeing that, youknow, I teach a lot about
(24:32):
contextualization. So as yousaid, you know, in Africa there
was There's pictures of Jesus asEast African man at at the
table. Last Supper, there's andso you're looking at okay, Jesus
has been a darker skin. NowAfricans are talking, you know,
(24:52):
Jesus, you know, had darkerskin. He's He's more like us.
And so I think that's whatEuropeans were started to do to
is saying, okay, Jesus is forus, if Western Christians, white
Western Christians are going outand doing missions, how can we
start to really take off our ownculture and present Jesus for
(25:13):
Jesus and not a white Jesus or adifferent version of Jesus? And
I think this has implicationsfor for missions globally, since
now missions is from everywhereto everywhere. And it's not
really from the west to the tothe rest of the world anymore.
(25:33):
But it is a global endeavor.
What is the role of taking offand and studying our own culture
and seeing what we're trying topresent and dismantling our own
sort of culture that we've puton Jesus, and just presenting
Jesus as Jesus Himself?
Grace Ji-Sun Kim (25:53):
Yeah, I'm hoping that that will happen.
And you know, when you're givingthose examples of Korean Africa,
I think still, it's a very smallminority. You know, I've been to
Africa, and I've been to Korea,most recently, last year. And
still, what the whitemissionaries brought was a white
Jesus and a white God. Andthat's so embedded in us. And so
(26:13):
when I, you know, about sevenyears ago, I went to South
Africa. And I went to see myfriend, who I went to seminary
with, he's a Korean. And he isteaching what the white
missionaries had taught Koreans.
So yes, as you said,missionaries are now going all
over the place. But thiswhiteness of Christianity is
(26:35):
still so heavily embedded. Sowhen white when Chris Koreans
are going into Kazakhstan, andall these different places now,
as missionaries, they are stilltaking the white male god with
them. This white Christianity.
So I think a lot of things needto happen. Koreans are, you
(27:01):
know, we, as Koreans really needto unpack this white
Christianity, which is very,very difficult to do. For
example, in the seminaries inKorea, they still love to
translate, like these no namewhite theologians books, like I
wouldn't even read them. Andnone of my books have been
(27:24):
translated. Hardly any KoreanAmerican books have been
translated into Korean. Well,there's no name. And you know, I
don't want to downplay, but, butthe point is, they still prefer
the white male theologians, theythink their theology is it over
(27:44):
their own people's theology. Sothis is a huge problem. So all
these places where the whitemissionaries went, there's a lot
of unpacking to do, because whatwhite missionaries told Koreans
and Africans and South Americansis your culture is horrible,
you're barbaric, you're not goodenough, you know, you have to
(28:05):
become like us Western people,and then you will receive our
God, our beautiful white God. Soall that message has been kind
of given to us for so long, it'sreally hard to take that, to
unpack it. That's whymissionaries from those places,
when they go to other places,majority of them are still
(28:27):
taking the white gospel messageof a white Jesus, and not
sharing the message of Jesus, ofJesus that you kind of were
talking about. So you know, allthese things need to happen in
it's hard. It's not gonna happenovernight. I sure when my book
comes out in Korea, nobody willwant to read it. Because, you
(28:48):
know, they're gonna think, oh,you know, what is this specially
as a woman to? You know, why areyou trying to do this, but they
were like to read some whitemale theologians and their books
will be translated into Korean.
And they will be read in theseminaries in Korea. Oh, and
this is probably not just inKorea, but in many places around
the world where the whitemissionaries sweat. So it's not
(29:09):
as simple thing to do, but it'sgoing to take a long, it's going
to take a long time to unpackall of this.
Joshua Johnson (29:19):
All right. So give us some steps, then what
you think are our unpackingsteps? What do we do as as
people as thinkers, you know,as, as Jesus tells us, metanoia,
as he tells us to thinkdifferently, to rethink what we
know, how can we start to growand rethink what are some
(29:42):
rethinking ways for us and goodsteps?
Grace Ji-Sun Kim (29:46):
Well, I think, you know, a lot of things need
to be done, I think recognizinghow race is placed in our
society. So understanding thatthat is a social construct. We
have people all that It's likesome biological thing, but it's
not. So understanding that andhad understanding this
(30:07):
whiteness, this concept ofwhiteness and how it plays
within Christianity to. So, youknow, studying this and, and why
people need to study it to it'snot just something for people of
color to study, and, and peopleof color to deal with. That's
how it always feels like in thisAmerican society, it's my
(30:27):
problem, so I need to deal withit. But it was never my problem
it was made into my problem. SoI'm hoping that everyone will
recognize that this is a bigproblem. And it's just like
dealing with sexism, it's not awoman's problem. It's a man's
(30:48):
problem. So the men have to dealwith this too. So in the same
way, white people really need todeal with, it doesn't matter if
you're conservative or liberal,progressive or not, every white
person needs to deal with it.
Because this racism is systemic,it's embedded into our churches,
into our schools and into oursociety in our neighborhoods.
(31:11):
And so if we can't deal withthis, we're never going to be
able to treat and and do thesecond commandment, Love thy
neighbor, we're not going to beable to do it, no matter what,
if you don't deal with thisother problem first, you will
never be able to love becausealways in the back of your head,
(31:33):
they are the other you know,they are marginalized, you know,
there's something wrong withthem. So Okay, then I'll help
them. It's this strange kind ofwell, white self, Savior
attitude, or so reallyunderstanding this. So I'm
hoping that a lot of whitepeople are read my book. And
then once you understand thepower of whiteness, and how it,
(31:58):
how it's constructed, then tounpack it, and really just, you
know, deconstruct and dismantlethis white male god, and work
towards a more loving image ofGod, which you can find in
Scripture. And as more women areteaching and speaking and
(32:19):
writing and becomingtheologians, you know, more of
these images are coming out, wehave to retrieve these different
ways of speaking about God.
Because how we view God reallyimpacts our thinking, how we add
to how we behave. So if youcontinue to have this white male
(32:42):
god, then of course, theseabortion laws or immigration
laws, or all these other laws,that you know, legislators put
into place, are going tocontinue to go against women or
go against immigrants, or goagainst people of color. You
know, that's the impact ourwhite male god has, we think,
(33:04):
well, many of us are notChristians. Yeah, many, many
Americans aren't Christians. Butstill, this white male god is
still infiltrated into oursociety. And it still impacts
those who have left Christianityor left religion, or are
atheists, it's still, there's animpact in different ways. So
(33:25):
unpacking how we think about Godwill have really good cut good
results, I think, in oursociety, in our, in our
churches,
Joshua Johnson (33:36):
as the world is becoming more multicultural, and
there's globalization. And welike for me, one of the the
things that I don't know, as, Imean, I have, I don't know,
maybe 10 different ethnic groupsin my lineage like I am a, a,
I'm a mutt of different ethnicgroups, right. And so, as things
(34:03):
are going to happen more andmore like that, and so
ethnicities are going toactually be be merged more than
they have been ever before. Whatis what is the role of that
going to play out? And how,what's the difference in with
how do we get rid of this raceconstruct? And when there is
(34:25):
like a melding of ethnicities aswell? What is the like, is there
something different and new thatyou're you're trying to see, we
know that this has happened,this we have to reckon with it,
but is there a new vision ofsomething else that we can as
society start to eitherorganized around or not
(34:46):
organized around?
Grace Ji-Sun Kim (34:48):
Well, I think difference is fine. You know, I
think differences what makesthis world turn I think, you
know, this interculturalexperience that's happening. I
think that's great. So you know,these differences among the
different ethnicities, you know,ethnicities is this larger
(35:09):
category of heritage, language,nationality, culture, customs,
etc. You know, I think it's okaythat we have these different
languages and differentcultures, and different
Heritage's. I think that's whatmakes this world so rich, I
think the problem is when wedon't accept it, and we say, one
(35:31):
is so bad, you know, Chineselanguage is worse than the
English language, you know,something so simple like that.
But if you keep, say, one isbetter than the other, and just
downgrading people that, youknow, is racism. And that just
leads to bigger problems, youknow, of oppression and
(35:53):
marginalization. So, you know,you are a mutt, and many of us
are going to be our our, I thinkthat's fine. I don't think we
need to work towards thishomogeneous society or this
homogeneous world. I think it isreally celebrating our
differences, you know, with whenJesus did his ministry, he
(36:14):
didn't expect everybody to bethe same. He he, you know, he
talked to the Samaritan woman,you know, she taught he was wet
the lepers, you know, he, hetalked to various people. So, it
wasn't like, Oh, everybody bethe same. It is all these
differences that make this bodyof Christ, so beautiful, and so
(36:37):
rich. So I think it is morecelebration and welcoming. And
we can do that in our churchesby celebrating, you know, Black
History Month, but not justduring the black history. But
throughout the year, how can wecelebrate the various people in
our churches that have that eatdifferent foods? You know, I
(36:58):
think Americans are so used toeating cold food, other people
in other countries don't likecold food, and small, you know,
I know a lot of Africans, alltheir food has to be piping hot,
you know, they cannot handle thecold food. So if you wouldn't
have have a celebration atchurch, have different foods
(37:19):
have hot food and have differentfoods with spices and things
like that. So you know, we havea lot to learn from each other.
You know, I learned from othercultures too. And I think, you
know, especially with this foodin our sharing of food, you
know, we all need food to live.
So if we can enjoy and breakbread together with different
(37:39):
types of food, you know, that'sa celebration rather than, you
know. And my seminary ties topeople making fun of people
using chopsticks. You know, whyis that happening? And I know
it's still happening today. But,you know,
Joshua Johnson (37:57):
it was like all the Koreans when I lived in
Korea, I'm making fun of meusing job six.
Grace Ji-Sun Kim (38:03):
Not making fun of people that like they think
it's so strange that why wouldanyone use these two sticks to
eat, but it's such a convenientway to eat if you ever tried.
And in the Asian culture, allour food is made into small
pieces. You don't need a forkand a knife there. You just all
(38:26):
you need is a chopstick andmaybe a spoon if there's soup,
but everything you just pick itup because there's nothing to
cut up because everything's cutup before it comes to the table.
Joshua Johnson (38:38):
That's good. I, we do that a lot. I think
multiculturalism celebratingdifferences are really important
that we see each other celebratewho people are, you know, one of
the things that you write aboutin the book that has been been
difficult for you sometimes,especially when you're in a when
you're a minority in a place andpeople are asking you where
(39:00):
you're from, where are youreally from? They really want to
know your family of originbecause different, right? Yeah.
For, for me, somebody who isvery curious about people's
ethnicity and their family oforigin story, and where their
family is from because I have somany different ethnicities
(39:22):
within me. I don't feel rootedlike. And so I want to see the
rootedness of somebody else. Andthat fascinates me. And I just
want to honor it. How do I askthat in a way that is honoring
to somebody that is a minorityand especially in America? Was
that?
Grace Ji-Sun Kim (39:38):
Yeah, that's a good question. I think asking
one's heritage or, you know,your family's heritage. I think
that's a good way to begin theconversation. And you cannot
really push people to say more.
I think, you know, some peoplelove to share. Other people
don't know anything. You justhave to leave it there. Instead
of like she prodding where youreally, really really from, you
(40:00):
know, going if if Californiadoesn't sit and then you say
Seattle that this, you know,just prodding people feel
uncomfortable with. But if youask about your family heritage
and maybe background and ifpeople want to share they share
if they don't, then that's theend, you know, because some
people love to talk about otherstuff, they may be feeling
(40:21):
uncomfortable, maybe they are amixed heritage and and then
they're not comfortable sharingthat
Joshua Johnson (40:30):
if you're looking at maybe your church or
your community, what is likewhat you've written about race,
whiteness, white God,practically, what does it look
like in the congregation? Isthere something that you have
found that is helpful for peopleto start to, to reckon with it?
Grace Ji-Sun Kim (40:55):
Because I'm, you know, I'm just doing part
time at a church. It's not, I'mnot really that had passed, I'm
just in term. So I feel that it,you know, I don't really need to
teach my books there. But ifpeople do you ask, of course, I
start talking about it, I thinkit's important to break it down.
(41:19):
I know, I don't use a masculinepronoun, and I avoid masculine
images of God, that's just partof the liturgy, because I have
weighed on the liturgy that Ichoose. And if it has it, I just
delete everything, and just usespirit or just God, or other
(41:40):
terminology that's not sogendered or racialized. So in
that way, I'm impacting, andpeople may have picked it up.
And I know, sometimes people maygo in there, after I submit to
change it, and then it's toolate. I can't change it. But But
I think, you know, you can'tjust change it overnight. I
(42:01):
think pastors and leaders, theyreally need to deal with this
and really move away from thispatriarchal notion of God,
because it's very damaging. Thisbook, when God became white, I
have another book that just cameout called Surviving God, I co
(42:24):
wrote it with Susan Shaw, andthat deals with sexual abuse.
And we know that sexual abuse ishappening in society. But it
also happens in the church. Andsome people, you know, they use
scripture to just let it glossit over, or we miss us and Miss
read scripture, and all thepatriarchal masculine images of
(42:47):
God, they kind of perpetuatethis violence against women. So
we really have to see andrecognize the consequences of
this. And, you know, the whitemale god, the consequences of
racism being played out in ourchurch. So understanding this,
(43:10):
then really, if you haveopportunities to do book
studies, to, you know, not onlyhave white male authors, but
have woman authors, and thenpeople of color authors. I know
many churches that do bookstudies, or, and invite authors
and theologians and scholars todo studies. So invite scholars
(43:35):
of color, to really challengeracism, challenge sexism, and,
you know, these are allintersectional. You know, the
other book that I co wrote wasintersectional theology, these
forms of injustice allintersect. So, you know, when
we're dealing with racism, it'snot just racism, it is tied in
(44:00):
with sexism. It's tied in withclimate change. It's tied in
with economic justice. Sounderstanding the
intersectionality of these formsof injustice and how they feed
off and they intersect tocontinue to oppress specially
(44:21):
the woman of color, thenunderstanding that first, and
then working towards dealingwith all these injustices will
be a good thing for the church.
So you can do it on a Sundaymorning. You can do it in adult
form, you can do it in a Biblestudy, or these special events.
There's many avenues and then ifyou're going to do potlucks, or
(44:43):
celebration, you know, AAPIHeritage Month, Native American
Heritage Month and Latinx andBlack History Month. Now,
there's all these opportunitiesthroughout the year, and you can
create your own opportunities.
is to do this. There's so manyways that we can celebrate so
(45:04):
that we can really be awelcoming church, for all people
into the
Joshua Johnson (45:10):
pews. Because what I love about Jesus Jesus's
is for all people sitting withmy Syrian friends, reading the
story of Jesus's birth and theangels coming to the shepherds
saying, you know, I bring yougood news and glad tidings for
all people. And she looks at usand says, Jesus really, for all
(45:30):
people said, Yes, Jesus is forall people this what Angel said.
And then she said, Oh, if he isfor all people of Jesus, then I
love him, I want to follow Him.
This because he's for allpeople. And so I really do. I
love Jesus, because He is forall people. And he came, and we
actually could find the heart ofChrist in the skin of every
(45:51):
culture, that the differencesthat we do have in the world,
make up a beautiful tapestry ofGod's glory is living in
different places around theworld where I was at minority
like in Korea, and in the MiddleEast, as I was living there, it
gives me a new appreciation ofwho God is, to see different
(46:13):
aspects of who God is differentvantage points, so that I'm not
stuck in my own homogeneousculture, back home, but I could
actually see it from other otherplaces. It's really hard to
detangle your own culture, whenyou're in it, you can't read the
label from inside the bottle,you have to step outside, what
(46:36):
are some ways to step outside?
You've written some good booksso that we could do that. How
else can we start to encounterand engage the difference and
the beauty of other people andin our everyday life,
Grace Ji-Sun Kim (46:53):
I think recognizing that we're all equal
people is a great way to beginthat, you know, Africans are not
lower class or Asians or SouthAmericans. If we all if we can
view everyone equally, then wereally want to learn from each
other. You know, I had to learnKorean at a language school when
(47:16):
we emigrated, because, you know,learning how to read and write,
it's hard to just thought I wasMoses, you have to go to school.
You know, I hated doing that.
There was a time when I was soembarrassed to the Korean
language. And you know, if 40years later, 50 years later, who
would have thought that there'sKpop, and Kdrama, and all this
Korean food that can be kind ofin a global way. But I think,
(47:40):
you know, of course, justbecause that has happened
doesn't mean racism doesn'texist. That has happened, but
still, racism is there. But youknow, if you learn different
cultures, and you learndifferent languages, you know,
your life becomes more richer,because as Christians, you know,
on a Sunday morning, the onlything that we really have when
(48:04):
we're worshiping is our words.
You know, we sing our hymns, wesay our prayers, we hear the
word of God, it's, you know,it's through words that we
encounter who God is. So themore words, the more images, the
more languages that you have totalk about who God is. Because
(48:29):
we have to remember that we'rethese finite beings, we're not
that smart. And then we wereworshiping this infinite being.
So we cannot imagine theinfinite, we have to come to God
with this understanding of thismystical understanding, we don't
know the fullness of God.
Augustine said, if you thinkthat is God, then that is not
(48:49):
God, we cannot come to know thefullness of God. That's why we
should not limit ourselves andkeep talking about God as a
white male god, we have toretrieve these rich images that
are embedded in our scripture,embedded in our culture, the
heritage, and use them becausethen we get a more fuller or
(49:11):
deeper or more meaningfulunderstanding of who God is. So
celebrating and learning fromother cultures, how they have
practice, spirituality, reallyhelps us to, so instead of being
afraid and see all those kind ofbarbaric or uneducated people,
(49:32):
we want to say let's learn fromeach other. Let's celebrate from
each other. Teach me someconcepts, you know, this African
concept of Ubuntu that we bringinto theology, which is so
helpful, thinking about thecommunity over the individual.
Asian Americans think that waytoo. So I brought in these
concepts and I think the more welearn, the better off we will be
(49:56):
in understanding it. Other andunderstanding God, Grace,
Joshua Johnson (50:02):
if you could talk to your readers and tell
your readers one thing that youwould hope that they would get
from your book, what would thatbe?
Grace Ji-Sun Kim (50:10):
To reduce it to one, that's hard, I hope that
people will enjoy it and shareit. Those who are challenged,
will challenge others with thebook. You know, as we're
recording now, the book hasn'tbeen released. So I don't know
how people are going to receiveit, though people seem to be
(50:35):
very excited about it because ofthe book title. So I've already
got lots of invitations to speakon it. I'm hoping that it will
really challenge people. And Ithink challenge is good. I love
to be challenged. Because if Iget challenged, I'm not the same
as yesterday, I'm going to growand want to see more. Because
(50:58):
we're, you know, read, we don'tknow everything, and we need to
learn more. We shouldn't be justsatisfied with our grade one
faith. I think we need tocontinue to grow, we need to be
challenged. And I hope thatthat's what people will get from
the book, and they will enjoy itand share it with other people
(51:20):
too.
Joshua Johnson (51:22):
Perfect. Sounds good. Thank you. Grace. I just
have a couple questions that Ilike to ask at the end. One is
if you go back to your 21 yearold self, what advice would you
give
Grace Ji-Sun Kim (51:32):
to keep going?
Joshua Johnson (51:35):
Yeah, that's good. Yeah. Oh, one, and you did
it. And you kept going. Andyou're here today. That's great.
Good job. Good. Yeah. Anythingyou've been reading or watching
lately, you could recommend?
Grace Ji-Sun Kim (51:53):
Oh, I'm just reading just snippets here and
there and mostly from my ownpodcasts, but any of my podcast
guests. Everyone should readtheir books. So our most recent
one is Elia Dalio. They shouldread that book. And yep, saw,
you know, yeah, read all thosebooks. And what I'm watching is
(52:14):
all Kdrama most times
Joshua Johnson (52:18):
that's, that's good. I know many, many people
love Kpop there's a lot of it,it's good. How can people
connect with you? Where wouldyou like to point people to how
can people go get your book?
Grace Ji-Sun Kim (52:32):
So um, it's available everywhere, I think
ebooks and hardcover andpaperback and I think the audio
is coming out soon. I didn'trecord it. I wanted to but so
many limitations. I didn'trecord it. I really, one day I
really want to record one of mybooks, but I'm in a small town
and I have to travel to a bigcity and etc, etc. I hope people
(52:56):
will follow me on my substackit's loving life. Subscribe, you
can subscribe for free andfollow me there. And I'm all on
social media, Instagram,Facebook and Twitter as Grace je
Sen. Kim, and also on Tik Tokpeople can't believe I'm on Tik
Tok. Neither can I But anyway,I'm on Tik Tok to raise your son
(53:18):
count so people can follow methere.
Joshua Johnson (53:20):
Perfect. Grace, thank you for this conversation.
Thank You that we get to startto confront racism and
whiteness, and where it camefrom. And the race is a social
construct and how Christianityhas has grabbed a hold of that
and actually translated Jesusinto a white Jesus and God into
a white male god and what doesthat mean for us in our society
(53:43):
and how we could start to thenshed that cultural aspects and
present God and differentaspects and facets of God and
who he is and learn from otherpeople differences and celebrate
our differences. So it was afantastic conversation. I really
enjoyed it. Thank you. So I
Grace Ji-Sun Kim (54:01):
tried it so much to thank you so much
Joshua, for having me. And thankyou so much for reading my book.
I thank you so much for thisconversation. You're welcome.
When Jesus did his ministry, he didn't expect
(00:02):
everybody to be the same. He he,you know, he talked to the
Samaritan woman, you know, shetaught he was wet the lepers,
you know, he, he talked tovarious people. So it wasn't
like, Oh, everybody be the same.
It is all these differences thatmake this body of Christ so
beautiful and so rich.
Joshua Johnson (00:39):
Hello, and welcome to the shifting culture
podcast in which we haveconversations about the culture
we create, and the impact we canmake. We longed to see the body
of Christ look like Jesus. I'myour host, Joshua Johnson. Go to
shifting culture podcast.com tointeract and donate. And don't
forget to hit the Follow buttonon your favorite podcast app to
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(01:00):
a rating and review. It's easy,it only takes a second and it
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Thank you so much. You know whatelse would help us out? share
this podcast with your friends,your family, your network? Tell
them how much you enjoy it andlet them know that they should
(01:21):
be listening as well. If you'renew here, welcome. If you want
to dig deeper find us on socialmedia at shifting culture
podcast where I post video clipsand quotes and interact with all
of you. Previous guests on theshow have included Craig
Greenfield drew Qian and nutmegPanahi. You can go back listen
to those episodes and more. Buttoday's guest is Grace G son
(01:41):
Kim. Grace is Professor ofTheology at Earlham School of
Religion in Richmond, Indiana.
She is the host of the Madangpodcasts and has published in
time Huffington Post us Catholicand the nation. She is an
ordained PCUSA minister andenjoys being a guest preacher on
(02:02):
most Sundays are many booksinclude invisible reimagining
spirits and healing are brokenhumanity. Her latest book is
when God became white. In thisepisode, Grace JSON. Kim
discusses her experienceimmigrating to Canada from Korea
as a child and facing racism.
She talks about how Christianitybecame associated with whiteness
(02:22):
over time as it spread inEurope. Grace explains that the
concept of race and whitenessare social constructs used to
maintain power structures. So weunpack the idea of a white God
and try to figure out how topresent Jesus without cultural
overlays. Grace also emphasizescelebrating our differences and
learning from other cultures tobetter understand God and each
(02:45):
other. So join us as we reflecthow easy it is to make God in
our own image. Here is myconversation with Grace G son,
Kim. Grace, welcome to shiftingculture. Really excited to have
you on. Thank you for joiningme.
Grace Ji-Sun Kim (03:02):
I will thank you so much for having me. It's
a pleasure to be on yourpodcast.
Joshua Johnson (03:06):
Yeah, I'm looking forward to the
conversation, I think importantconversation that we're gonna
have. I'd love to start withyour story as an immigrant from
Korea into Canada. And what wasyour experience like? I
Grace Ji-Sun Kim (03:23):
was quite young. So when we immigrated I
started halfway throughkindergarten. We arrived in
January 1975. It was reallycold. We landed in Toronto, but
like, couple of weeks later, wejust moved to a small city
called London, Ontario. Andgrowing up there not knowing
English. You know, it wasn'tthat easy. And it's much, much
(03:46):
colder and much more snow thanKorea, that I remember as a kid.
So there was a lot ofadjustment. And I think just
right off from the beginning,the experience of racism was
felt in school, in thekindergarten class and I
attended. So that has alwaysbeen with me these experiences
(04:10):
of racism. So many of my booksand writings deal with racism in
one way or another. And thisbook when God became white,
certainly touches on racism.
Joshua Johnson (04:24):
Yes, it does. So then continue just to walk us
through what you you felt likeand then as your your parents
were able to drop you off atdifferent churches. What was
your experience, like as youstarted to encounter the church
for the first time?
Grace Ji-Sun Kim (04:45):
You know, the experiences of racism was very
common for many Koreanimmigrants. There were a few
other families that lived in thesame apartment complex. And so,
London, Ontario predominantlywhite and Anglo Saxon Protestant
city, you know, now with someKorean immigrant families, they
(05:07):
were very racist, you know,calling names and during the eye
poll and just racial slurs itwas on a daily basis. So it was
very difficult and I would gohome crying, and people wouldn't
make fun of, there's no suchplace as Korea. So it, you know,
it was kind of a traumaticexperience from, you know, this
(05:30):
homogeneous country, Korea whereI grew up and spoke Korean, and
that was surrounded by so manyloving family members to be and
all of a sudden, overnight, bein this isolated, cold
environment. It was it was verydifficult. So after a couple
years, a lady in the apartment,that Korean lady said, my sister
(05:56):
and I wanted to come to theKorean church, our parents, you
know, we didn't go to church orwe didn't attend church in
Korea. We just decided to go,you know, something to do to
kill time on a Sunday afternoon.
We didn't have any extendedfamily. So we just started going
to church with her and it wasfine. And then a year or so
later, my parents decided to go.
(06:20):
I think, at the time and manyimmigrant churches today, the
church is more than a place ofworship. It's a place where you
make friends have extended, youknow, gatherings, Christmas,
Thanksgiving, whatever holidays,because many immigrants don't
have extended family. It was aplace to find employment,
(06:43):
friendship, and so it was waymore than a church. So my
parents went and they enjoyedit. And as you mentioned, my dad
decided to drop my sister andoff in various churches. So
Korean church was always in arented of church building. So we
would worship on a Sundayafternoon. And that's still very
(07:04):
common for many immigrantchurches that can't afford to
have their own building. SoSunday morning, my dad dropped
us off at this large BaptistChurch. And then Sunday
evenings, we went to another itwas a very small Baptist Church,
it was a Sunday evening worship,not many people. And then mid
(07:27):
week, we went to various otherchurches, Friday nights, we went
to some Missionary AllianceChurch. So there was a lot of
church. And, you know, my dadwas the one that just dropped us
off. And we didn't mind we justwent. And looking back, I am
pretty sure it was free Englishclasses for us, because, you
(07:48):
know, we were still strugglingwith English and you know,
learning it is not learning asecond language or third
language or fourth language,it's always difficult,
especially if you don't speak itin the whole, you're only
speaking outside the home. SoI'm pretty sure that was part of
the reason why he just droppedus off at various churches, but
(08:09):
you know, left good memories.
Being plopped at places where Idon't know anybody. And then you
just have to quickly decide sitthere and either make friends or
just Just do your own thing andcome back home.
Joshua Johnson (08:26):
And one of the things about the the immigrant
experience is that it's reallydifficult for people that are
not immigrants to to putthemselves in their shoes,
saying, You're you're going intoa totally different culture, new
language, new home new place,you feel very disoriented. And
(08:47):
on top of that, since you notonly are from other places, you
look different as well, peoplewill not treat you very well. So
you you feel like an outsider inmultiple ways. Was there any any
sense from anybody that helpedyou transition? Or was that what
(09:08):
was a helpful piece to help youtransition?
Grace Ji-Sun Kim (09:13):
I don't know if there was any helpful piece
for the transition. Except forthat there were other Korean
immigrant families, many Koreanimmigrants came in the 1970s,
both to the US and to Canada.
And most of them were youngparents with young kids. So it
wasn't they weren't bringinglike teenagers. It was really
(09:33):
like five year old six yearolds, because, you know, it's
hard to emigrate when you haveolder kids. So it was a young
couples who decided to start afresh life in a new country. It
was after the war. You know,Korea was doing so poorly
economically. So for those whowanted a better life for their
(09:54):
young kids, they emigrated so Ithink the only kind of say When
Grace was, there were otherkids, my age that we kind of
hung around with, where, youknow, there was that
familiarity, we felt morecomfortable than in the white
predominant, you know, thepredominant white culture and
society. We see Europeansemigrate to us, it's not that
(10:18):
much of a change. There is, ofcourse, some change, but it's
not as dramatic. Because you canassimilate quickly, even if you
speak French, or Spanish,because you look white, it's
easy, you can easily assimilate,and your accent is preferred
over Asian accents. So there isall these other things that are
(10:43):
happening, to make it reallydifficult for people from Asia
or Africa to kind of make US orCanada, their new home. So you
know, it wasn't easy, I stillhave lots of memories of having
difficulty assimilating intointo the country. And being
(11:06):
accepted. It's not that easy.
Joshua Johnson (11:12):
So as you're encountering a predominantly
white culture, and whiteness,you you write in your book, when
God became white, you writeabout the rise of Western
Christianity, and then Westernism as a whole. And then you
write about race, and how whiteactually started a little bit
(11:33):
later. What is the construct ofrace? Where did race come from?
And where did where didwhiteness come from?
Grace Ji-Sun Kim (11:42):
Well, you know, race is a socially
constructed concept. It was usedto divide people, you know, we
are one human being one humanbody on Earth. But this notion
of race, to make one person, onegroup, with maybe fair skin,
(12:06):
versus darker skin, that thefair skinned people are better.
It's a strange concept, but ithas been around for a long time.
And it gets embedded in our wayof thinking, and how we behave
globally, especially in aglobalized world now, where it's
(12:27):
easy to fly, and you know, theweb, it's easy to connect. And
when you tie that intoChristianity, you know, Jesus
was a dark Palestinian Jew. But,you know, living under the Roman
Empire, crucified under theRoman Empire. So you have this
Roman Empire that had spreadinto the area. And when
(12:51):
Christianity spread to Europe,suddenly, Christianity became
white under Westernwesternization. So when we're,
you know, right now, Gaza is inthe news all the time, one of
the oldest churches in the worldis in Gaza. And we forget that
because Christianity itself hasbecome so white, it has become
(13:15):
so westernized. It's almost likeassociated with white
imperialism. We have, you know,made Jesus white, you know, and
all of a sudden, this homeless,roaming kind of Rabbi, teacher,
healer, becomes this fairskinned blue eyed, blond hair,
(13:40):
Emperor look in a glass windowsand paintings, and carvings.
It's unbelievable how whiteChristians in Europe had changed
Jesus to look like themselves.
So then you can tie that in withthis concept of whiteness, which
is also shaped, sociallyconstructed. So we have, you
(14:00):
know, this idea of white people.
And we also have to rememberthat white people were not a was
not a homogeneous group as whatwe may think today, because some
people were not consideredwhite, and then they become
white. An example would be theIrish, lower class, Europeans
(14:24):
who are not considered white.
But then, you know, with thisnotion of race and racism, other
people got added into who whitepeople are. So we have to
understand this. This constructof race is socially constructed
to keep some people in power andto take away power from other
people. So keeping that in mind,and so this understanding of
(14:49):
white people has been fluid andhas changed. You know, Jewish
people are now considered white.
So it is a flu Really concept,and we have to keep that in mind
to understand how this whitenessworks. So whiteness itself is a
socially constructed concept.
But it is more than thisunderstanding of white people,
(15:12):
it is all these social ideas,these ways of behavior, the way
of thinking that really putsinto place, a hierarchy of
people, and white people are atthe top, and everyone else falls
below. So we have to understandit's a very powerful concept
(15:32):
that comes into play within oursociety or culture, and even
within our Christian religion,and how we view the world. So
you know, it's all it's aboutpower, and who gets to hold
power. So understanding thatwill help us understand why
(15:55):
white people have more powerthan the rest of us. And, you
know, when we think globally,you know, here in the US, Asian
Americans are about six to 7% ofthe population. Well, in that
way, we are marginalized. So youknow, I'm not born a minority,
I'm minority, I'm minoritized, Iam made marginalized, and I am,
(16:20):
you know, oppressed because ofwho I am. But in the global
sense, Asians make up 60% of theworld population, we are the
majority. But still, this powerof whiteness still is fierce,
and it's overpowering, that itstill makes white people over us
(16:46):
as
Joshua Johnson (16:50):
a social construct. It's, it's
interesting to figure out that aif race was just made, as a
social construct, and keeppeople in power, and to
delineate others so that slaverycould happen, other things can
happen so that that power isaccumulated. Some people get
caught up in that. So for aJesus following Christian, not a
(17:16):
cultural Christian, but a Jesusfollowing a Christian that wants
to have humility and start towalk in the ways of, of Jesus in
the world. How do we start torecognize some of the power
structures if, like, forexample, for me, because I, I am
a white male, I don't have toconstantly be thinking about
(17:37):
race, like, that's just, I don'thave to because of my, my life
in the world doesn't necessitatethat. How do how do we start to,
to think about our own culture,our own place in society, and
start to dismantle the idea ofone people over another people?
Grace Ji-Sun Kim (18:02):
And that's a big question. So, you know, just
as you said, you don't have tothink about race. That's the
power of whiteness, that whitepeople don't have to think about
it. While the rest of us we haveto think about it constantly,
either by ourselves, or whatsociety does to us. So I think
as Christ's believing people, wehave to understand how this
(18:29):
notion of race gets played out,and how racism works in our
society. And what whitenessdoes, it's a learned behavior.
So when we think about theevolution of Christ, I don't
know, I just kind of made upthat term right now, how Jesus
became white, we have to nameit, because Christianity, for
(18:54):
the last 2000 years have nevernamed it, we insist that he is
this white, European male. Andwhen the white missionaries went
out into the world, that's themessage that they gave us. It's
in the book, I do talk aboutworner Solomon's image, that
(19:15):
image, the head of Christ, headof Christ image, because my
mother had that image, you know,we want that portrait in our
house. Many Korean churches haveit. And when I was in seminary,
I was chosen to go to India forthe summer. And so many Indian
churches had this head ofChrist. And we all believe that
(19:38):
this is how Jesus looked likesome white male, European
figure. So I think we have torecognize that white Europeans
have made God in their image orJesus in their image. Because
when we think about it, none ofus have seen God. One of us
(20:00):
Absolutely no one. And it saysyou cannot see the face of God
and live. So none of us have.
But Christianity itself has keptteaching that God is a white
male god. Until recently, nobodyreally questioned it. You know,
with the rise of the feministmovement in the 1960s, yes, some
of the feminist theologians arequestioning this. Why is God a
(20:23):
man? And why is God white? Well,I'm questioning now the
whiteness of God, and in a fewother people are theologians.
But we really need to questionthis because Mary Daly, who used
to teach at Boston College, shesaid, If God is male, than the
male is God, you know, we havethis kind of relational
(20:47):
understanding we, you know, evenif scripture says do not make
God in thy own image, you know,in graven image, we do that all
the time. And then when artistsdecide to, to depict Jesus as an
Asian man, or an African man,you know, there's an uproar, you
know, how dare you do that? ButWhite Europeans have been doing
(21:08):
that for the last 2000 years.
And, and when white people doit, it seems okay. So there's a
lot of things that we have toquestion. We have to rethink,
you know, because in the Bible,yes, there are those masculine
images of God. But also, there'sfeminine images of God, all
(21:29):
throughout the Bible. And afterI wrote this book, during
research for another book, theterm Yawei, you know, the four
syllable, y h, w. H, originally,it was yhW, it was a three
letter. And then these, youknow, somehow added the age, and
(21:49):
you have to recognize also thatthe Israelites, it was an oral
tradition, things weren't beingwritten down, you know, the
priestly tradition, all thesetraditions, they were, they were
being told orally. And until theprinting age, everything was
kind of orally transmitted. Sostories were told, and, and
that's how people came tounderstand who God is. So the,
(22:13):
the short, and the three letterword. Many of the Jewish
scholars said that's pronouncedas who he, and I don't know if
I'm saying it, right, but Hu Hi. And that actually means he
she, so God was understood, asshe she, you know, in the
(22:34):
really, really early traditionsof the Israelites. And when you
when you hear about thoseterminologies, and you think,
how did that happen? Well, manyof the Egyptians, at that time,
believed, you know, Pharaoh wasGod, you know, pharaohs, kind of
like this incarnation of God, orPharaoh is their God. And they
(22:57):
all believe that Pharaoh was ahe, she, a pharaoh was both a
man and a woman, because that'show divine beings were
portrayed. And when you thinkabout Genesis, you know, God
says, I created Adam andwhatever Eve, however, you're
going to name it in my ownimage. So if it was in God's
(23:20):
image, God's image is bothmasculine and feminine. But
anyway, these are other thingsthat you can ponder about. I
don't have it all in my book.
But I think it's important torecognize that there are all
these other images of who God iswithin the Old Testament and New
Testament. But for the last 2000years, we've been really focused
(23:40):
on a male god and a white God.
Joshua Johnson (23:48):
It's been a long time. And you know, as things
shifted into western Westerncountries and places into Europe
and into America, you know,Christianity itself now is, is
there's predominantly in theGlobal South, in Asia, there are
more Christians than there arein Western countries at the
(24:10):
moment. And those things arestarting to shift and change.
And so even when I lived inKorea for two years, and I
worked with a church and Itaught English, the school in
our boarding school, we had astatue of a Korean Jesus, like
it was Jesus looked very Korean.
Is there I'm seeing that, youknow, I teach a lot about
(24:32):
contextualization. So as yousaid, you know, in Africa there
was There's pictures of Jesus asEast African man at at the
table. Last Supper, there's andso you're looking at okay, Jesus
has been a darker skin. NowAfricans are talking, you know,
(24:52):
Jesus, you know, had darkerskin. He's He's more like us.
And so I think that's whatEuropeans were started to do to
is saying, okay, Jesus is forus, if Western Christians, white
Western Christians are going outand doing missions, how can we
start to really take off our ownculture and present Jesus for
(25:13):
Jesus and not a white Jesus or adifferent version of Jesus? And
I think this has implicationsfor for missions globally, since
now missions is from everywhereto everywhere. And it's not
really from the west to the tothe rest of the world anymore.
(25:33):
But it is a global endeavor.
What is the role of taking offand and studying our own culture
and seeing what we're trying topresent and dismantling our own
sort of culture that we've puton Jesus, and just presenting
Jesus as Jesus Himself?
Grace Ji-Sun Kim (25:53):
Yeah, I'm hoping that that will happen.
And you know, when you're givingthose examples of Korean Africa,
I think still, it's a very smallminority. You know, I've been to
Africa, and I've been to Korea,most recently, last year. And
still, what the whitemissionaries brought was a white
Jesus and a white God. Andthat's so embedded in us. And so
(26:13):
when I, you know, about sevenyears ago, I went to South
Africa. And I went to see myfriend, who I went to seminary
with, he's a Korean. And he isteaching what the white
missionaries had taught Koreans.
So yes, as you said,missionaries are now going all
over the place. But thiswhiteness of Christianity is
(26:35):
still so heavily embedded. Sowhen white when Chris Koreans
are going into Kazakhstan, andall these different places now,
as missionaries, they are stilltaking the white male god with
them. This white Christianity.
So I think a lot of things needto happen. Koreans are, you
(27:01):
know, we, as Koreans really needto unpack this white
Christianity, which is very,very difficult to do. For
example, in the seminaries inKorea, they still love to
translate, like these no namewhite theologians books, like I
wouldn't even read them. Andnone of my books have been
(27:24):
translated. Hardly any KoreanAmerican books have been
translated into Korean. Well,there's no name. And you know, I
don't want to downplay, but, butthe point is, they still prefer
the white male theologians, theythink their theology is it over
(27:44):
their own people's theology. Sothis is a huge problem. So all
these places where the whitemissionaries went, there's a lot
of unpacking to do, because whatwhite missionaries told Koreans
and Africans and South Americansis your culture is horrible,
you're barbaric, you're not goodenough, you know, you have to
(28:05):
become like us Western people,and then you will receive our
God, our beautiful white God. Soall that message has been kind
of given to us for so long, it'sreally hard to take that, to
unpack it. That's whymissionaries from those places,
when they go to other places,majority of them are still
(28:27):
taking the white gospel messageof a white Jesus, and not
sharing the message of Jesus, ofJesus that you kind of were
talking about. So you know, allthese things need to happen in
it's hard. It's not gonna happenovernight. I sure when my book
comes out in Korea, nobody willwant to read it. Because, you
(28:48):
know, they're gonna think, oh,you know, what is this specially
as a woman to? You know, why areyou trying to do this, but they
were like to read some whitemale theologians and their books
will be translated into Korean.
And they will be read in theseminaries in Korea. Oh, and
this is probably not just inKorea, but in many places around
the world where the whitemissionaries sweat. So it's not
(29:09):
as simple thing to do, but it'sgoing to take a long, it's going
to take a long time to unpackall of this.
Joshua Johnson (29:19):
All right. So give us some steps, then what
you think are our unpackingsteps? What do we do as as
people as thinkers, you know,as, as Jesus tells us, metanoia,
as he tells us to thinkdifferently, to rethink what we
know, how can we start to growand rethink what are some
(29:42):
rethinking ways for us and goodsteps?
Grace Ji-Sun Kim (29:46):
Well, I think, you know, a lot of things need
to be done, I think recognizinghow race is placed in our
society. So understanding thatthat is a social construct. We
have people all that It's likesome biological thing, but it's
not. So understanding that andhad understanding this
(30:07):
whiteness, this concept ofwhiteness and how it plays
within Christianity to. So, youknow, studying this and, and why
people need to study it to it'snot just something for people of
color to study, and, and peopleof color to deal with. That's
how it always feels like in thisAmerican society, it's my
(30:27):
problem, so I need to deal withit. But it was never my problem
it was made into my problem. SoI'm hoping that everyone will
recognize that this is a bigproblem. And it's just like
dealing with sexism, it's not awoman's problem. It's a man's
(30:48):
problem. So the men have to dealwith this too. So in the same
way, white people really need todeal with, it doesn't matter if
you're conservative or liberal,progressive or not, every white
person needs to deal with it.
Because this racism is systemic,it's embedded into our churches,
into our schools and into oursociety in our neighborhoods.
(31:11):
And so if we can't deal withthis, we're never going to be
able to treat and and do thesecond commandment, Love thy
neighbor, we're not going to beable to do it, no matter what,
if you don't deal with thisother problem first, you will
never be able to love becausealways in the back of your head,
(31:33):
they are the other you know,they are marginalized, you know,
there's something wrong withthem. So Okay, then I'll help
them. It's this strange kind ofwell, white self, Savior
attitude, or so reallyunderstanding this. So I'm
hoping that a lot of whitepeople are read my book. And
then once you understand thepower of whiteness, and how it,
(31:58):
how it's constructed, then tounpack it, and really just, you
know, deconstruct and dismantlethis white male god, and work
towards a more loving image ofGod, which you can find in
Scripture. And as more women areteaching and speaking and
(32:19):
writing and becomingtheologians, you know, more of
these images are coming out, wehave to retrieve these different
ways of speaking about God.
Because how we view God reallyimpacts our thinking, how we add
to how we behave. So if youcontinue to have this white male
(32:42):
god, then of course, theseabortion laws or immigration
laws, or all these other laws,that you know, legislators put
into place, are going tocontinue to go against women or
go against immigrants, or goagainst people of color. You
know, that's the impact ourwhite male god has, we think,
(33:04):
well, many of us are notChristians. Yeah, many, many
Americans aren't Christians. Butstill, this white male god is
still infiltrated into oursociety. And it still impacts
those who have left Christianityor left religion, or are
atheists, it's still, there's animpact in different ways. So
(33:25):
unpacking how we think about Godwill have really good cut good
results, I think, in oursociety, in our, in our
churches,
Joshua Johnson (33:36):
as the world is becoming more multicultural, and
there's globalization. And welike for me, one of the the
things that I don't know, as, Imean, I have, I don't know,
maybe 10 different ethnic groupsin my lineage like I am a, a,
I'm a mutt of different ethnicgroups, right. And so, as things
(34:03):
are going to happen more andmore like that, and so
ethnicities are going toactually be be merged more than
they have been ever before. Whatis what is the role of that
going to play out? And how,what's the difference in with
how do we get rid of this raceconstruct? And when there is
(34:25):
like a melding of ethnicities aswell? What is the like, is there
something different and new thatyou're you're trying to see, we
know that this has happened,this we have to reckon with it,
but is there a new vision ofsomething else that we can as
society start to eitherorganized around or not
(34:46):
organized around?
Grace Ji-Sun Kim (34:48):
Well, I think difference is fine. You know, I
think differences what makesthis world turn I think, you
know, this interculturalexperience that's happening. I
think that's great. So you know,these differences among the
different ethnicities, you know,ethnicities is this larger
(35:09):
category of heritage, language,nationality, culture, customs,
etc. You know, I think it's okaythat we have these different
languages and differentcultures, and different
Heritage's. I think that's whatmakes this world so rich, I
think the problem is when wedon't accept it, and we say, one
(35:31):
is so bad, you know, Chineselanguage is worse than the
English language, you know,something so simple like that.
But if you keep, say, one isbetter than the other, and just
downgrading people that, youknow, is racism. And that just
leads to bigger problems, youknow, of oppression and
(35:53):
marginalization. So, you know,you are a mutt, and many of us
are going to be our our, I thinkthat's fine. I don't think we
need to work towards thishomogeneous society or this
homogeneous world. I think it isreally celebrating our
differences, you know, with whenJesus did his ministry, he
(36:14):
didn't expect everybody to bethe same. He he, you know, he
talked to the Samaritan woman,you know, she taught he was wet
the lepers, you know, he, hetalked to various people. So, it
wasn't like, Oh, everybody bethe same. It is all these
differences that make this bodyof Christ, so beautiful, and so
(36:37):
rich. So I think it is morecelebration and welcoming. And
we can do that in our churchesby celebrating, you know, Black
History Month, but not justduring the black history. But
throughout the year, how can wecelebrate the various people in
our churches that have that eatdifferent foods? You know, I
(36:58):
think Americans are so used toeating cold food, other people
in other countries don't likecold food, and small, you know,
I know a lot of Africans, alltheir food has to be piping hot,
you know, they cannot handle thecold food. So if you wouldn't
have have a celebration atchurch, have different foods
(37:19):
have hot food and have differentfoods with spices and things
like that. So you know, we havea lot to learn from each other.
You know, I learned from othercultures too. And I think, you
know, especially with this foodin our sharing of food, you
know, we all need food to live.
So if we can enjoy and breakbread together with different
(37:39):
types of food, you know, that'sa celebration rather than, you
know. And my seminary ties topeople making fun of people
using chopsticks. You know, whyis that happening? And I know
it's still happening today. But,you know,
Joshua Johnson (37:57):
it was like all the Koreans when I lived in
Korea, I'm making fun of meusing job six.
Grace Ji-Sun Kim (38:03):
Not making fun of people that like they think
it's so strange that why wouldanyone use these two sticks to
eat, but it's such a convenientway to eat if you ever tried.
And in the Asian culture, allour food is made into small
pieces. You don't need a forkand a knife there. You just all
(38:26):
you need is a chopstick andmaybe a spoon if there's soup,
but everything you just pick itup because there's nothing to
cut up because everything's cutup before it comes to the table.
Joshua Johnson (38:38):
That's good. I, we do that a lot. I think
multiculturalism celebratingdifferences are really important
that we see each other celebratewho people are, you know, one of
the things that you write aboutin the book that has been been
difficult for you sometimes,especially when you're in a when
you're a minority in a place andpeople are asking you where
(39:00):
you're from, where are youreally from? They really want to
know your family of originbecause different, right? Yeah.
For, for me, somebody who isvery curious about people's
ethnicity and their family oforigin story, and where their
family is from because I have somany different ethnicities
(39:22):
within me. I don't feel rootedlike. And so I want to see the
rootedness of somebody else. Andthat fascinates me. And I just
want to honor it. How do I askthat in a way that is honoring
to somebody that is a minorityand especially in America? Was
that?
Grace Ji-Sun Kim (39:38):
Yeah, that's a good question. I think asking
one's heritage or, you know,your family's heritage. I think
that's a good way to begin theconversation. And you cannot
really push people to say more.
I think, you know, some peoplelove to share. Other people
don't know anything. You justhave to leave it there. Instead
of like she prodding where youreally, really really from, you
(40:00):
know, going if if Californiadoesn't sit and then you say
Seattle that this, you know,just prodding people feel
uncomfortable with. But if youask about your family heritage
and maybe background and ifpeople want to share they share
if they don't, then that's theend, you know, because some
people love to talk about otherstuff, they may be feeling
(40:21):
uncomfortable, maybe they are amixed heritage and and then
they're not comfortable sharingthat
Joshua Johnson (40:30):
if you're looking at maybe your church or
your community, what is likewhat you've written about race,
whiteness, white God,practically, what does it look
like in the congregation? Isthere something that you have
found that is helpful for peopleto start to, to reckon with it?
Grace Ji-Sun Kim (40:55):
Because I'm, you know, I'm just doing part
time at a church. It's not, I'mnot really that had passed, I'm
just in term. So I feel that it,you know, I don't really need to
teach my books there. But ifpeople do you ask, of course, I
start talking about it, I thinkit's important to break it down.
(41:19):
I know, I don't use a masculinepronoun, and I avoid masculine
images of God, that's just partof the liturgy, because I have
weighed on the liturgy that Ichoose. And if it has it, I just
delete everything, and just usespirit or just God, or other
(41:40):
terminology that's not sogendered or racialized. So in
that way, I'm impacting, andpeople may have picked it up.
And I know, sometimes people maygo in there, after I submit to
change it, and then it's toolate. I can't change it. But But
I think, you know, you can'tjust change it overnight. I
(42:01):
think pastors and leaders, theyreally need to deal with this
and really move away from thispatriarchal notion of God,
because it's very damaging. Thisbook, when God became white, I
have another book that just cameout called Surviving God, I co
(42:24):
wrote it with Susan Shaw, andthat deals with sexual abuse.
And we know that sexual abuse ishappening in society. But it
also happens in the church. Andsome people, you know, they use
scripture to just let it glossit over, or we miss us and Miss
read scripture, and all thepatriarchal masculine images of
(42:47):
God, they kind of perpetuatethis violence against women. So
we really have to see andrecognize the consequences of
this. And, you know, the whitemale god, the consequences of
racism being played out in ourchurch. So understanding this,
(43:10):
then really, if you haveopportunities to do book
studies, to, you know, not onlyhave white male authors, but
have woman authors, and thenpeople of color authors. I know
many churches that do bookstudies, or, and invite authors
and theologians and scholars todo studies. So invite scholars
(43:35):
of color, to really challengeracism, challenge sexism, and,
you know, these are allintersectional. You know, the
other book that I co wrote wasintersectional theology, these
forms of injustice allintersect. So, you know, when
we're dealing with racism, it'snot just racism, it is tied in
(44:00):
with sexism. It's tied in withclimate change. It's tied in
with economic justice. Sounderstanding the
intersectionality of these formsof injustice and how they feed
off and they intersect tocontinue to oppress specially
(44:21):
the woman of color, thenunderstanding that first, and
then working towards dealingwith all these injustices will
be a good thing for the church.
So you can do it on a Sundaymorning. You can do it in adult
form, you can do it in a Biblestudy, or these special events.
There's many avenues and then ifyou're going to do potlucks, or
(44:43):
celebration, you know, AAPIHeritage Month, Native American
Heritage Month and Latinx andBlack History Month. Now,
there's all these opportunitiesthroughout the year, and you can
create your own opportunities.
is to do this. There's so manyways that we can celebrate so
(45:04):
that we can really be awelcoming church, for all people
into the
Joshua Johnson (45:10):
pews. Because what I love about Jesus Jesus's
is for all people sitting withmy Syrian friends, reading the
story of Jesus's birth and theangels coming to the shepherds
saying, you know, I bring yougood news and glad tidings for
all people. And she looks at usand says, Jesus really, for all
(45:30):
people said, Yes, Jesus is forall people this what Angel said.
And then she said, Oh, if he isfor all people of Jesus, then I
love him, I want to follow Him.
This because he's for allpeople. And so I really do. I
love Jesus, because He is forall people. And he came, and we
actually could find the heart ofChrist in the skin of every
(45:51):
culture, that the differencesthat we do have in the world,
make up a beautiful tapestry ofGod's glory is living in
different places around theworld where I was at minority
like in Korea, and in the MiddleEast, as I was living there, it
gives me a new appreciation ofwho God is, to see different
(46:13):
aspects of who God is differentvantage points, so that I'm not
stuck in my own homogeneousculture, back home, but I could
actually see it from other otherplaces. It's really hard to
detangle your own culture, whenyou're in it, you can't read the
label from inside the bottle,you have to step outside, what
(46:36):
are some ways to step outside?
You've written some good booksso that we could do that. How
else can we start to encounterand engage the difference and
the beauty of other people andin our everyday life,
Grace Ji-Sun Kim (46:53):
I think recognizing that we're all equal
people is a great way to beginthat, you know, Africans are not
lower class or Asians or SouthAmericans. If we all if we can
view everyone equally, then wereally want to learn from each
other. You know, I had to learnKorean at a language school when
(47:16):
we emigrated, because, you know,learning how to read and write,
it's hard to just thought I wasMoses, you have to go to school.
You know, I hated doing that.
There was a time when I was soembarrassed to the Korean
language. And you know, if 40years later, 50 years later, who
would have thought that there'sKpop, and Kdrama, and all this
Korean food that can be kind ofin a global way. But I think,
(47:40):
you know, of course, justbecause that has happened
doesn't mean racism doesn'texist. That has happened, but
still, racism is there. But youknow, if you learn different
cultures, and you learndifferent languages, you know,
your life becomes more richer,because as Christians, you know,
on a Sunday morning, the onlything that we really have when
(48:04):
we're worshiping is our words.
You know, we sing our hymns, wesay our prayers, we hear the
word of God, it's, you know,it's through words that we
encounter who God is. So themore words, the more images, the
more languages that you have totalk about who God is. Because
(48:29):
we have to remember that we'rethese finite beings, we're not
that smart. And then we wereworshiping this infinite being.
So we cannot imagine theinfinite, we have to come to God
with this understanding of thismystical understanding, we don't
know the fullness of God.
Augustine said, if you thinkthat is God, then that is not
(48:49):
God, we cannot come to know thefullness of God. That's why we
should not limit ourselves andkeep talking about God as a
white male god, we have toretrieve these rich images that
are embedded in our scripture,embedded in our culture, the
heritage, and use them becausethen we get a more fuller or
(49:11):
deeper or more meaningfulunderstanding of who God is. So
celebrating and learning fromother cultures, how they have
practice, spirituality, reallyhelps us to, so instead of being
afraid and see all those kind ofbarbaric or uneducated people,
(49:32):
we want to say let's learn fromeach other. Let's celebrate from
each other. Teach me someconcepts, you know, this African
concept of Ubuntu that we bringinto theology, which is so
helpful, thinking about thecommunity over the individual.
Asian Americans think that waytoo. So I brought in these
concepts and I think the more welearn, the better off we will be
(49:56):
in understanding it. Other andunderstanding God, Grace,
Joshua Johnson (50:02):
if you could talk to your readers and tell
your readers one thing that youwould hope that they would get
from your book, what would thatbe?
Grace Ji-Sun Kim (50:10):
To reduce it to one, that's hard, I hope that
people will enjoy it and shareit. Those who are challenged,
will challenge others with thebook. You know, as we're
recording now, the book hasn'tbeen released. So I don't know
how people are going to receiveit, though people seem to be
(50:35):
very excited about it because ofthe book title. So I've already
got lots of invitations to speakon it. I'm hoping that it will
really challenge people. And Ithink challenge is good. I love
to be challenged. Because if Iget challenged, I'm not the same
as yesterday, I'm going to growand want to see more. Because
(50:58):
we're, you know, read, we don'tknow everything, and we need to
learn more. We shouldn't be justsatisfied with our grade one
faith. I think we need tocontinue to grow, we need to be
challenged. And I hope thatthat's what people will get from
the book, and they will enjoy itand share it with other people
(51:20):
too.
Joshua Johnson (51:22):
Perfect. Sounds good. Thank you. Grace. I just
have a couple questions that Ilike to ask at the end. One is
if you go back to your 21 yearold self, what advice would you
give
Grace Ji-Sun Kim (51:32):
to keep going?
Joshua Johnson (51:35):
Yeah, that's good. Yeah. Oh, one, and you did
it. And you kept going. Andyou're here today. That's great.
Good job. Good. Yeah. Anythingyou've been reading or watching
lately, you could recommend?
Grace Ji-Sun Kim (51:53):
Oh, I'm just reading just snippets here and
there and mostly from my ownpodcasts, but any of my podcast
guests. Everyone should readtheir books. So our most recent
one is Elia Dalio. They shouldread that book. And yep, saw,
you know, yeah, read all thosebooks. And what I'm watching is
(52:14):
all Kdrama most times
Joshua Johnson (52:18):
that's, that's good. I know many, many people
love Kpop there's a lot of it,it's good. How can people
connect with you? Where wouldyou like to point people to how
can people go get your book?
Grace Ji-Sun Kim (52:32):
So um, it's available everywhere, I think
ebooks and hardcover andpaperback and I think the audio
is coming out soon. I didn'trecord it. I wanted to but so
many limitations. I didn'trecord it. I really, one day I
really want to record one of mybooks, but I'm in a small town
and I have to travel to a bigcity and etc, etc. I hope people
(52:56):
will follow me on my substackit's loving life. Subscribe, you
can subscribe for free andfollow me there. And I'm all on
social media, Instagram,Facebook and Twitter as Grace je
Sen. Kim, and also on Tik Tokpeople can't believe I'm on Tik
Tok. Neither can I But anyway,I'm on Tik Tok to raise your son
(53:18):
count so people can follow methere.
Joshua Johnson (53:20):
Perfect. Grace, thank you for this conversation.
Thank You that we get to startto confront racism and
whiteness, and where it camefrom. And the race is a social
construct and how Christianityhas has grabbed a hold of that
and actually translated Jesusinto a white Jesus and God into
a white male god and what doesthat mean for us in our society
(53:43):
and how we could start to thenshed that cultural aspects and
present God and differentaspects and facets of God and
who he is and learn from otherpeople differences and celebrate
our differences. So it was afantastic conversation. I really
enjoyed it. Thank you. So I
Grace Ji-Sun Kim (54:01):
tried it so much to thank you so much
Joshua, for having me. And thankyou so much for reading my book.
I thank you so much for thisconversation. You're welcome.
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