Grief catches us all. One of the things I’m learning about the culture that I’m from is that we don’t grieve well. We don’t know how to do it. In this conversation, Steve Carter shares about his experience grieving after leaving his job at Willow Creek Community Church. He talks about the process of grieving he went through, including dealing with unforgiveness, reorienting his identity, and learning to forgive. He discusses the importance of community and walking through grief with hope. He also shares about helping his son process what happened and the importance of holding space for others in their grief journey. So join us as we learn to grieve, breathe, and receive.
Steve Carter is the best selling author of The Thing Beneath The Thing, host of the Craft and Character podcast, a coach to communicators who are looking to find their unique voice or take their next step of growth in speaking and teaches regularly at churches, conferences, and various businesses around the country. His latest book Grieve, Breathe, Receive helps guide people on their unique grief journey. He is the former lead teaching pastor at Willow Creek Community Church and currently serves as a teaching pastor at Forest City Church. He lives outside Chicago, Illinois, with his wife and two kids.
Steve's Book:
Grieve, Breathe, Receive
Steve's Recommendations:
The Hidden Peace
I Shouldn't Feel This Way
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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Steve Carter (00:00):
I was in Israel.
(00:00):
And I saw a rabbi and I just Iwanted to go talk to him. And so
(00:05):
I walked up to him, I didn'tknow him and introduced
ourselves to each other. And hesaid something interesting. It's
always like, Hey, I had thisquestion when I was on the
plane. You know, there's threemetaphors in of place in the
Hebrew Scriptures, the OldTestament, Egypt, the desert,
the Promised Land, like in aperson's life, how much time do
(00:26):
you think they spend in Egypt?
Place of struggle, oppression,slavery, the desert place of
just wandering uncertainty,wondering why he's got where
he's gotten all this and thePromised Land, like the land of
milk and honey, and he laughs atme. He's like, You Americans are
so funny. Do you thinkeverything's up into the right?
(00:48):
Now for us? We think 10 to 15%of our life is in Egypt. 10 to
15% of our life is in thePromised Land, and the remaining
70 to 80 percenters in thedesert. You all just try to
bypass the desert at all cost.
But if you actually learned, itwould transform the way that you
trust and see and experience thegoodness of God.
Joshua Johnson (01:22):
Hello, and welcome to the shifting culture
podcasts in which we haveconversations about the culture
we create, and the impact we canmake. We longed to see the body
of Christ looks like Jesus. I'myour host, Joshua Johnson. Our
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(01:45):
become a monthly patron so thatwe can continue in this
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Thank you so much. You know whatelse would help us out? share
(02:08):
this podcast with your friends,your family, your network, tell
them how much you enjoy it andlet them know that they should
be listening, as well. If you'renew here, welcome. If you want
to dig deeper find us on socialmedia at shifting culture
podcast, where I post videoclips and quotes and interact
with all of you. Previous guestson the show have included Amy
bird Sharon, hottie Miller andJustin Davis. You can go back
(02:29):
listen to those episodes andmore. But today's guest is Steve
Carter. Steve Carter is the bestselling author of The Thing
beneath the thing. Host of thecraft and character podcast, a
coach to communicators who arelooking to find their unique
voice or take their next step ofgrowth and speaking and teaches
regularly at churches,conferences and various
businesses around the country.
(02:52):
His book, grieve, breathe andreceive released on May 7, and
it helps guide people on theirunique grief journey. He is the
former lead teaching pastor atWillow Creek Community Church
and currently serves as ateaching pastor at Forest City
Church. He lives outsideChicago, Illinois with his wife
and two kids. Do you know thatgrief catches us all? One of the
(03:16):
things I'm learning about theculture that I'm from as that we
don't grieve? Well, we reallydon't know how to do it. In this
conversation, Steve Cartershares about his experience
grieving after leaving his jobat Willow Creek. He talks about
the process of grieving he wentthrough, including dealing with
unforgiveness reorienting hisidentity and learning to
(03:38):
forgive. He discusses theimportance of community and
walking through grief, withhope. He also shares about
helping his son process whathappened and the importance of
holding space for others intheir grief journey. So join us
as we learn to grieve, tobreathe and to receive. Here's
my conversation with SteveCarter. Steve, welcome to
(04:01):
shifting culture. excited tohave you on thanks for joining
me.
Steve Carter (04:05):
Definitely it's such an honor to be on this
podcast.
Joshua Johnson (04:08):
Well as honored to have you here. We're going to
share your story a little bitand get into grief and the
process of of walking throughthat and hopefully releasing
some of that and getting toreceive something at the end of
our grief process that neveractually goes away. That we get
to hold grief with us the restof our lives, but we have some
(04:30):
joy in the midst of it. So tostart us out, I'd love to hear
your story of coming to gripswith things falling apart,
change happening in your life.
And the moment that griefstarted to hit you. Yeah,
Steve Carter (04:48):
I think that for much of my life I had done what
probably many of us do. Andthat's just to avoid grief to
kind of void, I desert season inany way, shape or form just to
achieve set goals go after them.
And, you know, in many ways tryto do the most good. But I
(05:13):
almost like Jenga was likestacking up grievances, and
pains and wounds from mychildhood, you know, a
biological father in the pictureout of the picture. And that
just creates a whole bunch ofconfusion around identity like
was it because of me that helaughed, and you just keep kind
(05:35):
of went through life and in 2018is probably the, the real
invitation to have to deal withthe concept of grief in 2018.
And I was stepping into my dreamjob as the lead path teaching
pastor at Willow Creek CommunityChurch in Chicago, I had been
(05:57):
handpicked by my mentor, andmyself and another person would
be leading out as he was in thesuccession process. And then
some allegations started to comeout. And when those allegations
start to come out, you're kindof like, wait, what, what you're
overwhelmed, like? How do youHow am I supposed to think about
(06:21):
this? Okay. And there's so manythoughts going through your mind
your thoughts about the victims,thoughts about the congregation
thoughts about my mentorthoughts, thoughts about what
does this mean for my life andmy career, and unfortunately, I
just had a different way that Ithought that the leaders should
have handled this tragic storyof abuse. And I ended up
(06:45):
resigning on August 5 2018. On aSunday morning, I just wrote a
blog and release it into theworld saying, I'm stepping out
and it was hard. It was just areally, really hard season. I
did not want that to be thecase. I just felt like, I
(07:06):
couldn't play with acongregation's trust. And that
just kind of pushed me into whatdo you do when life does what it
does, and when it shocks you,and when change shows up on your
doorstep that you didn't seecoming. And I just felt like the
(07:26):
Lord say, go to the desert, waitfor instructions. You can
achieve your way out of this,you can only grieve your way
through it. And, and I just Joshwith this, I didn't know how to
grieve. And so that's what Ispent the last five years
learning. How do you grieve? Andit took me back to my childhood,
(07:48):
it took me back to some realtrauma. But in the end, the
desert season became one of themost redemptive and healing
seasons that I've everexperienced.
Joshua Johnson (08:00):
It seems counterintuitive that the desert
seasons are gonna be the onethat is going to bring you this
place of, Hey, I am I am a newcreation. I'm a new person, that
God has actually brought forthnew things in my life that are
going through this difficult,hard season. I think a lot of
(08:22):
people right now since since thepandemic, and 2020 like we have
a worldwide sense of grief anddesert for a while. And so this
isn't, it seems like the worldwas shaking. And you got you got
the privilege of walking throughit a couple of years before
everybody to walk through ittogether. So one of the things
(08:44):
that you write about, I think,while you're, you're looking
like this is happening, you talkabout perception, like
perceiving yourself, perceivingthe way that others look at you
and view you and knowing that alot of the things that you're
seeing about yourself is builton, maybe on alized, maybe a
(09:05):
little bit, a shifting of afalse falsehood, but as wasn't
rooted really in the truth ofwho God says you are or who you
are as a beloved child. How didyou start to realize that your
perception of yourself and whatthe maybe even the institution
or your family situation wasdifferent than you thought it
(09:29):
was previous?
Steve Carter (09:31):
Yeah, I you know, what's interesting is you can be
a preacher and pastor and studyGod's Word, and still drift
2% 5% 9% 15% from yourbelovedness by God. And you can
(09:52):
find your identity without evenreally thinking about it by what
you do, and not what has beendone for you. You can, you can
have that happen. And then whenit's taken away, I think that's
when it gets more exacerbatedbecause people are referring to
as the former lead teachingpastor at Willow Creek. And
(10:14):
you're and you're like, almostlike are my best days behind me.
And and then people are askingyou at a party Hey, what do you
do and and you're like I used todo something that seemingly had
significance and peoplerespected. Now I'm trying to
figure out what I do by wakingup and walking in the desert,
(10:37):
you know, like it just was sucha, a tricky piece of that's like
in one sense of your identity.
But the second piece that Ithink I had to really, really
wrestle down is I started tobelieve other people's
perceptions about me as almostgospel. So for instance, I was
(11:01):
told, Steve, you're not aleader. You're a great preacher,
you are not a leader.
Joshua Johnson (11:08):
Yeah, I read your book, I got angry for you.
Steve Carter (11:13):
What he's saying here is Yeah, but But you sit
there and you go, why I didn'tput on a global leadership
summit. I didn't like who am I?
Maybe he's right, maybe. And I,these certain statements started
to just attach themselves to me,and almost force me to start to
wonder, well, maybe, maybethat's true. Maybe I'm just a
(11:38):
teacher. Maybe I'm not this. Andwhat's tricky is, when you go
through a season of betrayal,and betrayal, trauma messes with
you talk to anyone where there'sbeen an affair, you talk to
anyone that were someonebetrayed or violated trust, it
messes with you, because youdon't know if your discernment
(12:01):
got leveled or if your yourdiscernment leveled up. And
that's, that's where I startedto recognize going wait, why did
I allow someone to tell me who Iam? And why was unable to
believe that? What does that sayabout me? And I went back to an
old Christine Caine talk, andI'll never forget it, it was
(12:24):
sitting in the front row. Andshe was teaching, and she was
teaching on Genesis one, two andthree on the questions God asks.
And she had this one momentwhere, you know, she gets fear,
fiery and might just passionate,like she always does in her
talks was brilliant. But she'slike, Who told you that? Like
God was asking, like demand?
(12:47):
Like, who told you that? Andthen she started to play? Did
God really say? Or was that likethe enemy? And I had to almost
bring a bunch of phrases that Iwas holding on to? And I had to
ask, Did God really say you'renot a leader? Or did someone
(13:08):
else say that? Did God reallysay this? Or was that somebody
else? Did God really say that?
Or was that someone who was justtransferring their pain on to
you, but I had held it, believedit and allowed my identity to
become it. And so part of thewalking in the desert and
speaking with mentors, and andtherapists was to recognize all
(13:31):
man, you you gave a little toomuch power to those people,
because they don't have theright to define who you are.
Only God does. So that's kind ofsome of the stuff that really
had to work through in thedesert season.
Joshua Johnson (13:50):
What else did you have to work through in the
desert season, you had to workthrough the the shakiness of
your identity, the brokenidentity that you thought you
had? That you're saying, Okay,God, what do you say about me?
There's other people didn't Whatelse did you have to walk
through in your desert season ofgrief?
Steve Carter (14:10):
So for me that that phrase in Christ became
really, really fascinated me. Istill remember like, one of the
first times I was just readingthrough the New Testament when
we had moved to Arizona. So weleft Chicago, we actually
literally moved to the desert,my wife was from there. And I'd
shared with her, Hey, I feellike God's telling us to go to
(14:30):
the desert, and I'm thinkingit's metaphorical. And she just
teared up and said, I've beensensing the same thing. I want
to go home. And so we move toArizona, and I just get up
early, start hiking. And I'mreading through some of the
chapters in the New Testament.
And I come across that phrase inChrist, and realizing like the
first church really sawthemselves entering into the
(14:52):
life that death and the burialand the resurrection of Christ.
And I had just this littlephrase where I was like, I want
to make discipleship fun again,like I have, there's so much
hard. Let's have, let's like,let me return to when I was 18.
And I realized what a talmidimor disciple of Jesus was like,
bring me back to that. And inthat phrase in Christ, I really
(15:15):
saw this pattern of holyweekend, Friday, Saturday,
Sunday, Good Friday, where aninnocent man dies, silent
Saturday, where the thedisciples have no idea what's
next. And then the surprise ofEaster Sunday. And that really
became the framework for grieve,breathe, receive and I, I
(15:38):
started to recognize when I gotto grieve, what I thought it was
going to be, how to grieve howkey people let me down. And I
gotta grieve what it actually islike what happened. I gotta
breathe in new mercies likelimitations. Three, the
steadfast love of the Lord neverceases. His mercies ever come to
(16:00):
an end, they're new everymorning. Great is your
faithfulness. I like breathe inthose new mercies each morning.
And exhale, whatever bitternessor unforgiveness, or sadness or
anger was within me. And I hadto receive, I had to have, allow
myself to be surprised by EasterSunday, and receive what I
(16:22):
needed to learn, right, I neededto own who God and Christ and
the Spirit wanted me to become.
But I think the struggle for mereally was in the amount of
unforgiveness I was carrying.
And part of that desert wasrecognizing in a willow didn't
(16:42):
hurt me. Willow didn't like,mess with my faith. Willow
didn't wrong me. Five peopledid. And my job was to actually
start to work on the process offorgiveness, so that if God ever
did a work in their heart, andwe could show up at the table,
and reconcile and have an honestand real conversation, I at
(17:03):
least wanted to know that I haddone my work. And I pray that a
miracle might happen. But thatprocess of unforgiveness and
getting that out and learning toactually forgive that that did
something in me that, that I'mjust still thankful to God for.
Joshua Johnson (17:24):
It's crucial process, it's something that you
need to release that andforgive. Now, as we train
missionaries, one of the thingsthat is crucial, is we have a
process of forgiveness process,you know, the called Fresh
Start, that walks peoplethrough, you know, the
unforgiveness of the habit ofand releases things, and
forgives, and it helpstremendously, that we could go
(17:47):
through that process. What didthat process look like for you?
And what was the work that youhad to do to get to forgiveness,
so that you could release and befree from the stuff that you
weren't carrying?
Steve Carter (18:01):
yet? So I pretty much typically either start with
my like, the cognitive the head,I want to study something or I
feel it and then that jumpstraight to Okay, I gotta learn
about it. And so I I just foundmyself so angry. And maybe for
some of you listening right now,you know exactly what that's
like you, someone betrayed you,someone hurt you, and, and even
(18:26):
just the thought of their nameor their face. And you almost
have what John Ortberg refers toas an anger fantasy, like you
envision being in a room withthem and saying what you need to
say. And I was having thesemoments was almost like coming
out of me when I was walking onthe trail or driving in the car.
(18:48):
And, you know, I, Jim Cresa, anamazing therapist says, when you
react, you're just reenactingthe past, or when you get
hysterical, it's most oftenhistorical. So you got to go
back to that place and start tomine it, get to it, learn about
it. And so I started to identifya handful of really, really
(19:14):
painful traumatic moments inthat Willow season. And the
people that were behind it, Inamed the person, not the
institution, I named the personone of those five, and named
what they did. So I just heldthat. But the second thing I
started to do is I looked at thetwo Greek words that are used
for forgiveness. And the firstone is a Fimi. It's in the
(19:35):
Lord's Prayer, forgive us ourdebts as we forgive those who
are indebted to us. And thatcomes from the day of atonement
or Yom Kippur war, and a Fimiliterally means to release and
send away and then the secondGreek word for forgiveness is
the word Karis Maya and we getthe word grace Karis in there,
and then there's a mayaliterally is the grace I've
(19:57):
received, I freely give away soit takes you to to the foot of
the cross. And so I started tohave this little breath prayer.
And I would carry these littlebrown crosses in my pocket. And
anytime one of those five namescame to the forefront, I simply
would just return to the cross.
You need grace I received? Can Igive away? Like I, I wronged
(20:21):
Christ? I've wronged people. Iwant grace. Can I still extend
it to them? And can I releaseit? And can I send it away? And
so the simple little breathprayer cross release, send it
away. And I would pray that Imean, I'd say the first time I
(20:43):
started it, for two people inparticular, I mean, it was, it
was north of 100 times a day.
And slowly but surely, itstarted to get to 75 times a
day, and 40 times a day. And nowyou know, every once awhile,
there might be a flare up onTwitter, something happens that
(21:05):
triggers a memory. But I justsimply go cross really send it
away. And it just, it's, it's away for me to say, I don't want
this in me, because here's thehere's the thing, Joshua,
unforgiveness is a seed. Andthat seed will find soil in your
heart, and they will grow. Andit will produce a fruit of
(21:26):
bitterness, anger, rage, gossip,slander, it's all in Ephesians
chapter four, you see it. Butwhen you choose to forgive, and
you think about John chapter 20,Jesus returns and all the
disciples are like, what? Thisguy just walked through a wall
and he's like, Hey, Peace bewith you. He says that again,
Peace be with you that hebreathes on them resurrection
(21:48):
breath. And then he says,receive the Spirit. And then,
and then he says, he says, likethe most common sense of line
ever he goes, the people youchoose to forgive will be
forgiven. And those that youdon't, won't be. It's like, it's
up to you. Will you choose tokeep this in your system?
Because you don't have thevision of the kingdom of God? Or
(22:11):
will you see a more profoundvision that you were supposed to
walk lightly and freely? Andwatch how Jesus did it, he just
cross release, send it away,cross release. So that just did
a work. I mean, and I often willsay this forgiveness is a solo
sport. Reconciliation takes morepeople. But we got to do that
(22:32):
solo sport. Well, to prepare usfor the day, we can sit across
the table with the people whohave harmed us if that is safe
and okay to do. Yeah,
Joshua Johnson (22:41):
I know that I need to do that as a solo sport,
but I need others, sometimes tohelp me get to that place. Yeah.
You know, like my unforgivenessthat I've been holding, that
sometimes my spiritual directorwill help. And it just comes out
in those sessions, right? Andthen he's like, Okay, is there
anybody you need to forgive is agod? Is it yourself as someone
(23:03):
else? And we walked through thatprocess, a debrief happened last
year, and I was able to walkthrough stages of the last five
years and say, Oh, I do need toforgive this and this. And so it
helps. What is that process thenwith community to help us get to
(23:23):
the place of realizing thatthere is some unforgiveness that
we have to start to do thatwork? ourselves?
Steve Carter (23:31):
Great question.
Yeah, I really think everyone'slife would be a lot healthier if
they had a therapist that theytrust, and they gave permission
to a spiritual director thatthey trust, and were able to
give permission to a mentor, andcommunity. And I think you have,
because each of them see adifferent side of you. Some are
on the payroll, some are not,some are some that you are
(23:54):
paying, you know, and it'ssomething that we're just
friends, but they all have adifferent vantage point. So for
me, it was, I would saydefinitely those four were
really, really helpful, added myspouse, obviously, but I would
say one thing I learned and thiscame from a counselor friend, I
was just sharing with him alittle bit about what was this
(24:18):
these anger fantasies? And hesaid, you know, what's amazing
75 to 80% of my clients who comein and sit with me, don't know
how to forgive. And then hesaid, if you actually in the
church taught people how toforgive, I'd probably be out of
a job. And he's like, it's kindof ironic that you don't and it
(24:40):
wasn't like he wasn't throwingshame or shade. He was like,
just, like genuinely saying thiscan communicate forgiveness so
well, but it's still really,really hard to actually put into
practice. And I had a reallyhard time forgive Giving myself
it's easier for me to want toBrightside and forgive others
(25:03):
was hard for me to forgivemyself. And I think learning and
being able to give permission topeople that were safe to ask the
hard, harder question justcreated new invitations for me
to have to bring before the Lordor a mentor, or therapist or a
(25:24):
friend or spouse. And I thinkfor me, right now, I think so
many of us are living inisolation. I was talking to a
friend, I don't know if Joshua,I'd love to get your thoughts on
this actually, because Irealized when I came up in
ministry, I really worked hardto have mentors in my life. But
I didn't work at the sameearnestness for mentors that I
(25:50):
did for close friends. Because Ithought, Oh, these people are
gonna have like, the keys tolife. But I think as you get
older, you recognize a, if youif you cheat on like community,
or you cheat on mentors, or youcheat on doing the internal
work, or you cheat, like, it's,it's gonna affect your ability
(26:12):
to have almost a 360 view ofwhat it is that maybe the Lord
is inviting you for your nextbest right stuff. And so I think
I came to realize, like, in my30s, man, I'm gonna, I'm gonna
need some stronger community.
And thanks be to God, because alot of those were the people
that were able to who knew mebefore Willow, who knew the
(26:36):
struggles I had knew me that Ithink were able to reflect back?
Hey, I think this is somethingyou got to you got to start
processing through. And thequestion is, do you have the
courage to do it? Yeah,
Joshua Johnson (26:50):
yeah. We need those close friends. Like it's,
it is absolutely necessary. Imean, that's, that's one of the
last things I was I was talkingto my spiritual director about
is I feel like, I don't haveenough of those close friends
anymore. Yeah, I'm somebody Ionly need like, like 123, like,
good, close friends. And I'verealized that some of those
(27:14):
friends are seasonal friendslike they, they're here for a
season. And so I'm trying to reup at the moment. And it's also
takes courage to say, I want toput myself out there and try to
go and find people that I couldgo deep with and be genuine and
be a friend. It's not easy. It'shard. And but I know that when I
(27:38):
have it, it is I mean, I feellike I I'm firm in my foundation
like I'm, I can go and weatherstorms because I have those
people with me. And if I didn'thave those, then the storms
would almost, you know, crippledme. And I needed it. Yeah,
Steve Carter (27:57):
that's so good. So good. I think of like x 16, when
Paul and Silas find themselvesin prison, and they start
singing, while other peoplelisten. And I think it's so much
easier to sing. Or have thatresiliency, like you said to
face the storm when you have acouple of people beside you. And
(28:19):
so long as there's only oneperson beside you. But when when
you're alone, and the voicesinside the voices outside,
trying to be able to see truenorth, it's so much harder, so
much harder.
Joshua Johnson (28:36):
So, you know, my my mother in law passed away at
the end of January. And shelived with us for seven years
really and, and my wife tookcare of her at the end while she
was going through things and itwas just a long process. One of
the things my wife said,Meredith said after maybe a
month after her mom died, is Idon't know who I am anymore. And
(29:01):
that's the process of grief.
Right? Is when you're in thatgrief spot. You're just like who
am I? And it feels like there'sa reorientation. So that feels
to me like a Saturday, it feelslike the silence of Holy Week.
Like, I don't know who I am. I'mdisillusioned. There's
something. There is a death thathappens, whatever it is, or a
(29:22):
change that happened. Now I'msitting here, I don't know who I
am. What is this breathingaspect of this process that you
have in the Saturday when you'redisillusioned and what are you
breathing? What is it? Yeah,it's so
Steve Carter (29:39):
good. What's what's what's really tricky is
for many of us who arestructured, we, you know,
whether we were taking care ofour mother in law, like
Meredith, your wife, or for me,if you asked me what time of the
day and day of the week I couldtell you what I was doing at
Willow I was very structured Allof a sudden when that gets
(30:02):
removed, now you're like, Whatdo I do with my time? So it
affects like what? Thosedisciples they, they were like
we walked with Jesus, we sawmiracles, we, we were with that
Rabbi like we, we we were doinggood now. We're fishing or
hiding or wondering like, whatdo we do now? And I think that
(30:26):
will take us in so manydifferent directions. Sometimes.
For some of us, it takes us toanger, like, it's good that they
did this, or it's frustrationtowards God, why did you take my
mom? Why did you why this whyit's frustration towards a
spouse. It's, it's a sense ofuncertainty. And so for me, in
(30:47):
those Saturday moments, youalmost have to Jedi mind trick
yourself a little bit. Becausein the desert, and you know,
this, when, when the nation, theHebrew people have gotten out of
Egypt, they were pretty close tothe promised land. But it still
(31:07):
took them 40 years. And onescholar says it's because it's
one thing to leave Egypt, it'sanother thing to have Egypt
leave you. And I think that formany people in that liminality,
that liminal space, we don'tknow how to wait well. And so
(31:29):
for me, I hate to wait. i Pleasedon't make me wait for my
Starbucks, like, Please don'tmake like I want to, I want to
live the most efficient lifepossible. And then for some of
us, we waste the wait. Like wefind ourselves in this liminal
space between Friday and Sunday.
And we don't know how to pressin. We just know how to escape
(31:49):
and we just choose someunhealthy escapes. And I
understand it, there's no I'mnot. I'm not shaming anyone in
that. But I, I even wassurprised temptations that I
thought I had been overcome,like overcame when they came
back, because now I realizelike, oh, I don't have structure
(32:09):
I have all this time. Well, Iwas just busy that I didn't have
the time to even entertain thisnow I do. And so it was very
quick and easy to choose anunhealthy escape. So for some of
us, you hate the way some of uswe waste the weight. I think
it's the conscious decision tosay, Lord, help me win the
weight. And let me just trustyou. Whatever, that Egypt is
(32:32):
within me. Do it. Do it ever ittakes to get that out of my
system. And I'll tell you this,I I was in Israel. And I saw a
rabbi and I just I want to gotalk to him. And so I walked up
to him, I didn't know him andintroduced ourselves to each
(32:53):
other. And he said somethinginteresting. And so it was like,
Hey, I had this question when Iwas on the plane. The other
three metaphors in of place inthe Hebrew Scriptures, the Old
Testament, Egypt, the desert,the Promised Land, like in a
person's life, how much time doyou think they spend in Egypt?
Peace of struggle, oppression,slavery, the desert place of
(33:16):
just wandering uncertainty,wondering why he's got where
he's gotten all this and thePromised Land, like the land of
milk and honey, and he laughs atme. He's like, You Americans are
so funny. You think everything'sup into the right now for us. We
think 10 to 15% of our life isin Egypt. 10 to 15% of our life
is on the promised land. And theremaining 70 to 80% is in the
(33:39):
desert, you will just try tobypass the desert at all cost.
But if you actually learned itwould transform the way that you
trust and see and experience thegoodness of God. I did not know
what that guy meant when he saidthat to me in 2014. But come
2018 That That statement waslike oh my goodness, I have
(34:04):
spent my life bypassing thedesert. bypassing the sadness,
bypassing the pain, wasting theweight, hating the weight. And
now the question is will I trustand experience a really deeper
kinder, more gentler and goodGod even? Even when life isn't
(34:24):
up into the right, even in theuncertainty and the unknown?
Yeah,
Joshua Johnson (34:31):
are always just becoming alright. So we never
get to arrive up into there,right? No, it's not we're never
there. Yeah. Even in thepromised land area. We've we're
still becoming and we're stillgrowing. We're still moving
towards Christ. Yeah,
Steve Carter (34:48):
is it isn't it?
Ruth Bell Graham, her tombstonesays her name the date she was
born, he dies and thenunderneath that it says, end of
construction. Thanks for yourpatience on her tombstone. It is
just amazing to me. You know, soI
Joshua Johnson (35:01):
love that.
That's really good. You knowwhat sometimes you know, when
we're in that waiting place,you're a desert. So the 70% of
our life in the desert, let'sthis will be fun. We, we open
ourselves up, but we say, Okay,I have I feel like I've given
everything up away like, I'm notholding anything else. It's just
you Jesus. But then there'sstill the waiting. Is there
(35:22):
resurrection life? Is Sundayreally coming? Like where we're
here in the desert? Is Sundaycoming? Is there resurrection?
Is there a gift? Do we get agift? Going through this
process? What is there at theend? It's not the end because
right? We're still underconstruction. But is there any
(35:42):
good gifts that God gives in themidst of it?
Steve Carter (35:49):
So for me, I think formation can one of the ways
formation can work indiscipleship is through like a
little simple, struggle, sacredprocess, meaning we love simple
truths. You know, God is withme. God has for me, God will
never leave me nor forsake me.
That's a very simple truth. Butthen you go through the desert,
(36:12):
the struggle, the suffering, youget, you get punched in the gut.
And now you have to go, Is Godwith me? Is God for me? Will God
never leave me nor forsake mewhen I don't have a stage or a
congregation? or this or that,like, will he. And that's what
the desert really, really showedme. As I was walking and there's
(36:36):
no concrete. It's a coyotes andrattlesnakes. It's barren. And
then every once awhile, you'dstart to see something bloom.
And it just reminded me of theway that the Lord all throughout
scripture would surprise you.
And I just, I felt like thedisciples were surprised they
(36:58):
didn't see Sunday coming in mostpeople when they die, they die.
They don't get back up. And thatmust have changed everything.
And so I just started havingthis little prayer Lord
surprised me today. Or surprisedme today. Would you surprise me
today? Let me see Sunday today,surprise me today. And what was
(37:20):
amazing is when that's simpletruth, God is with you. God has
for you, God never leave you norforsake you actually can go
through the struggle. And itstill holds up. That statement
isn't simple anymore. It isweighty and sacred. As he is
with me. It was never about howgood of a sermon I preached was
(37:44):
never How about how big of acongregation. And that wasn't
what made him want to be withme. And for me, it was with me,
even when nobody was watching.
He was for me, even at my lowestmoment. And so all of a sudden
now it's like I hear thesephrases, that I would nod my
head in agreement. Now it's likeI put both hands over my heart
(38:05):
and inhale and exhale and saythanks, be to God. And so, for
me, that's that is how do youstay open? To the surprise? How
do you stay open and FirstThessalonians. Four is, you
know, you have to grieve. We hadto grieve with hope. That's,
that's what's different about usin our faith is we know that
(38:28):
Sunday happened, and that he'sreturning again, we have hope,
and how do we hold both? And notjust choose one? Or just use the
other? But how do you hold bothand hold them? Well? Can
Joshua Johnson (38:43):
you define hope for us? I know that in America,
we we don't really know whathope is we just use it. Yeah,
what? So what's a deeper hopefor us? What is what is hope?
Steve Carter (38:58):
So hope for me is, I think one of the most profound
and stunning and beautiful wordsand concepts. You know, in the
Roman culture, they didn't teachhope they actually mocked you if
you if you were a person ofhope, because all they wanted
was you to live in reality. Andif it could not be defined, they
(39:22):
thought it was weak. And so whenPaul writes in Romans five, you
know, talking about sufferingand perseverance, perseverance,
character and character, hopeand hope will not be put to
shame. That would have been sorevolutionary for that church in
Rome, like we are people ofhope. So it's fascinating
(39:43):
though, is the way that we talkabout hope is in this like
whimsy. Far from what the textmeant with hope. It's like, you
know, I hope the University ofMichigan wins the national
championship again next year infootball, like, I hope there's
no traffic on my way to theairport. But that's all
preaching uncertainty. I don'treally know. So what is hope?
(40:06):
And for me, I use this acronymbecause I try to dare people to
hope I had a dare myself tohope. And the D is you desire
something good for thissituation, I desire
reconciliation, I desirehealing, I desires and when you
desire something good, it's,it's, it's desiring heaven to
(40:27):
enter into that situation andthe values of heaven in the way
of Christ to do something inthat moment. So I desire that I
try to, you know, way Paulwrites in his fixer eyes on the
heavenly things set or have thesame mindset as Christ, what
would Christ mindset be for thissituation have that level of
desire and hope? Second, isanything is possible, as Joby
(40:51):
Martin, pastor and JacksonvilleChurch of 1122 says, if the tomb
is empty, anything's possible.
So what's harder, fixing thisrelationship that's broken? or
raising a man from the dead? Ihaven't found I think raising a
man is probably harder. So Ithink that anything is possible,
including this, as that's it theheartbeat of God, restoration,
(41:12):
renewal reconciliation? And whycan I say that because
resurrection are bringcertainty. And when I actually
believe we people of theresurrection, or as Barbara
Johnson says, We are Easterpeople leaving in a Good Friday
world. And so my definition ofhope is when I can desire
something good, believe anythingis possible. Resurrection brings
(41:34):
certainty. And II, I can expectand anticipate that good is on
its way. For me. That's whathope is, it is the expectation
in anticipation, because of theresurrection. And because of the
heart of God, that His goodnessand His redemption, and his
(41:55):
restoration is on its way. Andsometimes it doesn't go as fast
as I like it to go. But I gottakeep my eyes open my ears open
my heart open. Because he's inthe business of surprising us
again, and again and again.
Amen.
Joshua Johnson (42:14):
So good. I think that's really helpful for us to
figure out what does it looklike to hold on to hope? As
we're walking through thesesituations? That's so helpful.
Thank you for that. One of thethings that meant for me, I've a
question of you going throughwhat you did at Willow was very
painful, it was hard. You weretrying to live in an integral
(42:39):
space and have integrity throughthe situation. And, you know, at
that same time, you were havingconversations with your son
about integrity. And he wasasking if you are lived with
integrity during that day. Andyour son said something at the
coffee shop and your book that Ithink was was important. And if
(43:03):
I get it wrong, you can correctme. But you know, as he's
talking about, hey, I thoughtthat you said if you did things
right, then things will go wellfor you. And people, the coffee
shops were yelling at you. Youhad somebody yelling at you. It
just looked like somebody didn'tlike you at that time. When you
stood up and you did something,right? How do we walk our
(43:25):
children through this process,when painful things are
happening to us, and they areseeing it and viewing it? And so
how do you walk alongside ofthem?
Steve Carter (43:35):
Yeah. You know, that's that's probably where so
much of my unforgiveness camebecause I was really, really
worried and fearful of what thattrauma would do for for my kids,
and their faith and their lifeand their heart, their mind,
their body, their soul. So itwas at a local coffee shop and
(43:56):
someone who went to Willow sawme and I was grabbing the drink
for my son and me and he wasfifth grade at the time. And we
were walking, about to turn walkout and this woman just came up
and just You're a coward. Youabandoned us you're not a
leader. And just in front of myson, my son's holding my hand
(44:19):
looking at me looking at herlooking at me looking at her.
And I just, you know, broughthim close. And she went for
about 45 seconds. And I justsaid I as a people in the coffee
shop, were looking and I justlooked back at her and I just
said hey, I appreciate you.
trusting me with your fullfeelings about man. Walk to the
(44:41):
car, and I could feel the angercoming. I'm so frustrated like
just the cortisol rushingthrough my body and I'm putting
my son in the backseat and thecar and he just looks at me
before he like, enters and he'slike, Hey, you always told told
me that if you did the rightthing, you'd be rewarded. So you
either lied to me because thatdidn't feel like a reward, or
(45:07):
you didn't do the right thing.
And I, Joshua, I didn't knowwhat to say like, But thanks be
to God, God gave me like justthis little word in that moment
I just said, but I don't knowwhat to really say to you
outside of when mom was pregnantwith your sister, whose name is
mercy, she threw up two times aday. And it was a hard
(45:30):
pregnancy. But on May 22, whenyou when mom and I held mercy
for the first time, she wasn'tthinking about the vomiting and
the throwing. She was just itwas all worth it. And I don't
know when we're going to holdour version of mercy. But I am
(45:51):
choosing to believe that daywill come. And that's all I
could remind my son of, Icouldn't tell him when I
couldn't tell him how I just hadto almost embody that hope and
that biblical understanding ofit. And then second, hold space
(46:12):
for him to feel and mean, well,we moved to Arizona was a really
dark time for him to be honest.
Because, you know, then COVIDhappens he can't go to school,
it's like it just all and all ofhis friends were back here. And
so it just sitting and and thenhe's asking more questions. Why
did that affect us? Why did thathappen? And, and you're having
(46:35):
to sit present to him, not gettriggered yourself. But then go
on a walk and let that come out,cross released, send it away,
process it with, you know, your,your spiritual mentors and
pastors and friends. But he justhad to give him space to feel
(46:59):
it. And, and I will say this theend, we've always tried to teach
your kids the power of agency tobe able to name their desires
doesn't mean it's always goingto come but we wanted them to be
attuned to that. And as he wasmoving into the, his freshman
year, we asked him, Where wouldyou like to go to high school?
(47:20):
You want to stay in Arizona? Doyou want to? And without missing
a beat? He said, I want to gohome. I said where's home? And
he said, our old neighborhood.
And Joshua, we did the craziestthing we move 20 doors down from
where we used to live. And Idon't know very many people who
(47:41):
move back to their personalChernobyl, but I will tell you,
he felt heard. And in recently,he told me he said he thanks for
listening to my, what I needed.
I know this is probably harder,and maybe not what you chose
would have chosen. But thisfeels like the right move for
(48:02):
me. He's a sophomore in highschool is he's just awesome. But
I just think in that moment, hewasn't saying this. But I I went
back to that coffee shop parkinglot neat. And I was like, just
with tears like in my eye. He'sholding his version of mercy.
Thanks be to God.
Joshua Johnson (48:23):
As beautiful.
Such a beautiful story. ThankGod that he's holding this
version of mercy at the moment.
That's right. That is so good.
So good. If you could tell yourreaders one thing you hope that
they would get from this book,what would you hope your readers
would get?
Steve Carter (48:40):
I hope that you will see the text. See holy
weekend, see your story, yourpain and realize you're not
alone. This isn't a book that'sgoing to tell you all the
answers seven steps to this thisand it's it's one that I believe
(49:01):
you will be able to findyourself in and invite some
deeper conversations with theLord with a spirit with a
friend, a mentor, therapist,Pastor, spiritual director.
Because I think that the griefjourney, maybe a better way to
(49:21):
say it is you can't get toSunday. If you don't experience
Friday and Saturday, and I wantSunday for every single one of
you. And to do that do that.
Well, we have to my definitionof grief is honor what comes up
when change shows up and fullyhonor the Friday and fully
honored the Saturday and makeroom for the surprise of Sunday.
Joshua Johnson (49:46):
So good. Steve, couple questions at the EDS one.
If you go back to your 21 yearold self, what advice would you
give?
Steve Carter (49:55):
You're going to be okay. You're going to be okay.
You keep doing your or internalwork, keep getting after the
thing beneath the thing, keepdoing your work on your story.
And then secondly is it doesn'tmatter. It doesn't matter where
you're at, and how big of anopportunity you have. That still
(50:22):
feels the same about you, nomatter what, no matter what you
do, or what you did. He stillfeels absolutely, fully, madly,
recklessly in love with who youare becoming. Anything
Joshua Johnson (50:36):
you've been reading watching lately, you
could recommend. Oh,
Steve Carter (50:39):
great question. I mean, look at me look. And I've
been reading a bunch of books,you know, when when you write a
book, you don't read outside oflike, because you just don't
want like other thoughts gettingthrough and so you maybe do
research but then it's you getinto writing and just writing.
And then when you get done withthe edited manuscript, you're
like, I can return to my thirdlove, you know, first love the
(51:00):
Lord second love Michiganfootball, third love reading and
like I can just return to it. SoI just read the hidden piece by
Joel Muda. Molly, Darrenwhiteheads, the digital fast.
I'm working my way throughAllison Cook's new book, which
is unbelievable. And thenstronger like water by Andi
(51:22):
Kohler. She has a she has aguided journal that I've been
working through, and then mybuddy Luke Norsworthy just wrote
a book that's, it's such a goodtitle, how to love the life you
already have. And I've justfinished that book two days ago.
(51:44):
And it was remarkable. So yeah,those are some of the stuff I've
been reading. Awesome.
Joshua Johnson (51:48):
Those are great.
How can people go out and getyour book, grieve, breathe,
receive? And then connect withyou? Where would you like to
point people to?
Steve Carter (51:59):
It find me at Steve carter.org or online,
Instagram, Twitter x, orwhatever we call it at Steve
Ryan Carter. So we'd love toconnect, reach out help in any
way.
Joshua Johnson (52:11):
Great. Well, Steve, thank you for this
conversation. It was fantastic.
I love walking through yourstory. And thank you for sharing
that with us. Thank you foropening yourself up and taking
us through your grieving processso that we can feel like we
aren't alone. Like we can do itas well, that we can go through
Friday and go through Saturdayso that we can get to the to the
(52:34):
hope of Sunday, that there isresurrection coming, but that
the grief process is somethingthat we have to go through. But
we have to go through thedesert. And thank you for
sharing the story with your sonas well. I think that was very,
very moving to me and helpful.
And figuring out how do we holdon to hope? How do we dare to
(52:58):
hold on to hope? So thank you,Steve, for this conversation. It
was fantastic.
Steve Carter (53:02):
Thank you, Joshua.
And seriously, I I have someholy envy over the guests that
you've had on the shiftingculture podcast. And so just to
be on this podcast, man, itreally really truly means the
world. So you're doing greatwork. So thanks for having me.
Joshua Johnson (53:17):
Thank you. You too.
I was in Israel.
(00:00):
And I saw a rabbi and I just Iwanted to go talk to him. And so
(00:05):
I walked up to him, I didn'tknow him and introduced
ourselves to each other. And hesaid something interesting. It's
always like, Hey, I had thisquestion when I was on the
plane. You know, there's threemetaphors in of place in the
Hebrew Scriptures, the OldTestament, Egypt, the desert,
the Promised Land, like in aperson's life, how much time do
(00:26):
you think they spend in Egypt?
Place of struggle, oppression,slavery, the desert place of
just wandering uncertainty,wondering why he's got where
he's gotten all this and thePromised Land, like the land of
milk and honey, and he laughs atme. He's like, You Americans are
so funny. Do you thinkeverything's up into the right?
(00:48):
Now for us? We think 10 to 15%of our life is in Egypt. 10 to
15% of our life is in thePromised Land, and the remaining
70 to 80 percenters in thedesert. You all just try to
bypass the desert at all cost.
But if you actually learned, itwould transform the way that you
trust and see and experience thegoodness of God.
Joshua Johnson (01:22):
Hello, and welcome to the shifting culture
podcasts in which we haveconversations about the culture
we create, and the impact we canmake. We longed to see the body
of Christ looks like Jesus. I'myour host, Joshua Johnson. Our
show is powered by you thelistener. So if you want to
support the work that we do getearly access to episodes,
Episode guides and more. Go topatreon.com/shifting culture to
(01:45):
become a monthly patron so thatwe can continue in this
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Thank you so much. You know whatelse would help us out? share
(02:08):
this podcast with your friends,your family, your network, tell
them how much you enjoy it andlet them know that they should
be listening, as well. If you'renew here, welcome. If you want
to dig deeper find us on socialmedia at shifting culture
podcast, where I post videoclips and quotes and interact
with all of you. Previous guestson the show have included Amy
bird Sharon, hottie Miller andJustin Davis. You can go back
(02:29):
listen to those episodes andmore. But today's guest is Steve
Carter. Steve Carter is the bestselling author of The Thing
beneath the thing. Host of thecraft and character podcast, a
coach to communicators who arelooking to find their unique
voice or take their next step ofgrowth and speaking and teaches
regularly at churches,conferences and various
businesses around the country.
(02:52):
His book, grieve, breathe andreceive released on May 7, and
it helps guide people on theirunique grief journey. He is the
former lead teaching pastor atWillow Creek Community Church
and currently serves as ateaching pastor at Forest City
Church. He lives outsideChicago, Illinois with his wife
and two kids. Do you know thatgrief catches us all? One of the
(03:16):
things I'm learning about theculture that I'm from as that we
don't grieve? Well, we reallydon't know how to do it. In this
conversation, Steve Cartershares about his experience
grieving after leaving his jobat Willow Creek. He talks about
the process of grieving he wentthrough, including dealing with
unforgiveness reorienting hisidentity and learning to
(03:38):
forgive. He discusses theimportance of community and
walking through grief, withhope. He also shares about
helping his son process whathappened and the importance of
holding space for others intheir grief journey. So join us
as we learn to grieve, tobreathe and to receive. Here's
my conversation with SteveCarter. Steve, welcome to
(04:01):
shifting culture. excited tohave you on thanks for joining
me.
Steve Carter (04:05):
Definitely it's such an honor to be on this
podcast.
Joshua Johnson (04:08):
Well as honored to have you here. We're going to
share your story a little bitand get into grief and the
process of of walking throughthat and hopefully releasing
some of that and getting toreceive something at the end of
our grief process that neveractually goes away. That we get
to hold grief with us the restof our lives, but we have some
(04:30):
joy in the midst of it. So tostart us out, I'd love to hear
your story of coming to gripswith things falling apart,
change happening in your life.
And the moment that griefstarted to hit you. Yeah,
Steve Carter (04:48):
I think that for much of my life I had done what
probably many of us do. Andthat's just to avoid grief to
kind of void, I desert season inany way, shape or form just to
achieve set goals go after them.
And, you know, in many ways tryto do the most good. But I
(05:13):
almost like Jenga was likestacking up grievances, and
pains and wounds from mychildhood, you know, a
biological father in the pictureout of the picture. And that
just creates a whole bunch ofconfusion around identity like
was it because of me that helaughed, and you just keep kind
(05:35):
of went through life and in 2018is probably the, the real
invitation to have to deal withthe concept of grief in 2018.
And I was stepping into my dreamjob as the lead path teaching
pastor at Willow Creek CommunityChurch in Chicago, I had been
(05:57):
handpicked by my mentor, andmyself and another person would
be leading out as he was in thesuccession process. And then
some allegations started to comeout. And when those allegations
start to come out, you're kindof like, wait, what, what you're
overwhelmed, like? How do youHow am I supposed to think about
(06:21):
this? Okay. And there's so manythoughts going through your mind
your thoughts about the victims,thoughts about the congregation
thoughts about my mentorthoughts, thoughts about what
does this mean for my life andmy career, and unfortunately, I
just had a different way that Ithought that the leaders should
have handled this tragic storyof abuse. And I ended up
(06:45):
resigning on August 5 2018. On aSunday morning, I just wrote a
blog and release it into theworld saying, I'm stepping out
and it was hard. It was just areally, really hard season. I
did not want that to be thecase. I just felt like, I
(07:06):
couldn't play with acongregation's trust. And that
just kind of pushed me into whatdo you do when life does what it
does, and when it shocks you,and when change shows up on your
doorstep that you didn't seecoming. And I just felt like the
(07:26):
Lord say, go to the desert, waitfor instructions. You can
achieve your way out of this,you can only grieve your way
through it. And, and I just Joshwith this, I didn't know how to
grieve. And so that's what Ispent the last five years
learning. How do you grieve? Andit took me back to my childhood,
(07:48):
it took me back to some realtrauma. But in the end, the
desert season became one of themost redemptive and healing
seasons that I've everexperienced.
Joshua Johnson (08:00):
It seems counterintuitive that the desert
seasons are gonna be the onethat is going to bring you this
place of, Hey, I am I am a newcreation. I'm a new person, that
God has actually brought forthnew things in my life that are
going through this difficult,hard season. I think a lot of
(08:22):
people right now since since thepandemic, and 2020 like we have
a worldwide sense of grief anddesert for a while. And so this
isn't, it seems like the worldwas shaking. And you got you got
the privilege of walking throughit a couple of years before
everybody to walk through ittogether. So one of the things
(08:44):
that you write about, I think,while you're, you're looking
like this is happening, you talkabout perception, like
perceiving yourself, perceivingthe way that others look at you
and view you and knowing that alot of the things that you're
seeing about yourself is builton, maybe on alized, maybe a
(09:05):
little bit, a shifting of afalse falsehood, but as wasn't
rooted really in the truth ofwho God says you are or who you
are as a beloved child. How didyou start to realize that your
perception of yourself and whatthe maybe even the institution
or your family situation wasdifferent than you thought it
(09:29):
was previous?
Steve Carter (09:31):
Yeah, I you know, what's interesting is you can be
a preacher and pastor and studyGod's Word, and still drift
2% 5% 9% 15% from yourbelovedness by God. And you can
(09:52):
find your identity without evenreally thinking about it by what
you do, and not what has beendone for you. You can, you can
have that happen. And then whenit's taken away, I think that's
when it gets more exacerbatedbecause people are referring to
as the former lead teachingpastor at Willow Creek. And
(10:14):
you're and you're like, almostlike are my best days behind me.
And and then people are askingyou at a party Hey, what do you
do and and you're like I used todo something that seemingly had
significance and peoplerespected. Now I'm trying to
figure out what I do by wakingup and walking in the desert,
(10:37):
you know, like it just was sucha, a tricky piece of that's like
in one sense of your identity.
But the second piece that Ithink I had to really, really
wrestle down is I started tobelieve other people's
perceptions about me as almostgospel. So for instance, I was
(11:01):
told, Steve, you're not aleader. You're a great preacher,
you are not a leader.
Joshua Johnson (11:08):
Yeah, I read your book, I got angry for you.
Steve Carter (11:13):
What he's saying here is Yeah, but But you sit
there and you go, why I didn'tput on a global leadership
summit. I didn't like who am I?
Maybe he's right, maybe. And I,these certain statements started
to just attach themselves to me,and almost force me to start to
wonder, well, maybe, maybethat's true. Maybe I'm just a
(11:38):
teacher. Maybe I'm not this. Andwhat's tricky is, when you go
through a season of betrayal,and betrayal, trauma messes with
you talk to anyone where there'sbeen an affair, you talk to
anyone that were someonebetrayed or violated trust, it
messes with you, because youdon't know if your discernment
(12:01):
got leveled or if your yourdiscernment leveled up. And
that's, that's where I startedto recognize going wait, why did
I allow someone to tell me who Iam? And why was unable to
believe that? What does that sayabout me? And I went back to an
old Christine Caine talk, andI'll never forget it, it was
(12:24):
sitting in the front row. Andshe was teaching, and she was
teaching on Genesis one, two andthree on the questions God asks.
And she had this one momentwhere, you know, she gets fear,
fiery and might just passionate,like she always does in her
talks was brilliant. But she'slike, Who told you that? Like
God was asking, like demand?
(12:47):
Like, who told you that? Andthen she started to play? Did
God really say? Or was that likethe enemy? And I had to almost
bring a bunch of phrases that Iwas holding on to? And I had to
ask, Did God really say you'renot a leader? Or did someone
(13:08):
else say that? Did God reallysay this? Or was that somebody
else? Did God really say that?
Or was that someone who was justtransferring their pain on to
you, but I had held it, believedit and allowed my identity to
become it. And so part of thewalking in the desert and
speaking with mentors, and andtherapists was to recognize all
(13:31):
man, you you gave a little toomuch power to those people,
because they don't have theright to define who you are.
Only God does. So that's kind ofsome of the stuff that really
had to work through in thedesert season.
Joshua Johnson (13:50):
What else did you have to work through in the
desert season, you had to workthrough the the shakiness of
your identity, the brokenidentity that you thought you
had? That you're saying, Okay,God, what do you say about me?
There's other people didn't Whatelse did you have to walk
through in your desert season ofgrief?
Steve Carter (14:10):
So for me that that phrase in Christ became
really, really fascinated me. Istill remember like, one of the
first times I was just readingthrough the New Testament when
we had moved to Arizona. So weleft Chicago, we actually
literally moved to the desert,my wife was from there. And I'd
shared with her, Hey, I feellike God's telling us to go to
(14:30):
the desert, and I'm thinkingit's metaphorical. And she just
teared up and said, I've beensensing the same thing. I want
to go home. And so we move toArizona, and I just get up
early, start hiking. And I'mreading through some of the
chapters in the New Testament.
And I come across that phrase inChrist, and realizing like the
first church really sawthemselves entering into the
(14:52):
life that death and the burialand the resurrection of Christ.
And I had just this littlephrase where I was like, I want
to make discipleship fun again,like I have, there's so much
hard. Let's have, let's like,let me return to when I was 18.
And I realized what a talmidimor disciple of Jesus was like,
bring me back to that. And inthat phrase in Christ, I really
(15:15):
saw this pattern of holyweekend, Friday, Saturday,
Sunday, Good Friday, where aninnocent man dies, silent
Saturday, where the thedisciples have no idea what's
next. And then the surprise ofEaster Sunday. And that really
became the framework for grieve,breathe, receive and I, I
(15:38):
started to recognize when I gotto grieve, what I thought it was
going to be, how to grieve howkey people let me down. And I
gotta grieve what it actually islike what happened. I gotta
breathe in new mercies likelimitations. Three, the
steadfast love of the Lord neverceases. His mercies ever come to
(16:00):
an end, they're new everymorning. Great is your
faithfulness. I like breathe inthose new mercies each morning.
And exhale, whatever bitternessor unforgiveness, or sadness or
anger was within me. And I hadto receive, I had to have, allow
myself to be surprised by EasterSunday, and receive what I
(16:22):
needed to learn, right, I neededto own who God and Christ and
the Spirit wanted me to become.
But I think the struggle for mereally was in the amount of
unforgiveness I was carrying.
And part of that desert wasrecognizing in a willow didn't
(16:42):
hurt me. Willow didn't like,mess with my faith. Willow
didn't wrong me. Five peopledid. And my job was to actually
start to work on the process offorgiveness, so that if God ever
did a work in their heart, andwe could show up at the table,
and reconcile and have an honestand real conversation, I at
(17:03):
least wanted to know that I haddone my work. And I pray that a
miracle might happen. But thatprocess of unforgiveness and
getting that out and learning toactually forgive that that did
something in me that, that I'mjust still thankful to God for.
Joshua Johnson (17:24):
It's crucial process, it's something that you
need to release that andforgive. Now, as we train
missionaries, one of the thingsthat is crucial, is we have a
process of forgiveness process,you know, the called Fresh
Start, that walks peoplethrough, you know, the
unforgiveness of the habit ofand releases things, and
forgives, and it helpstremendously, that we could go
(17:47):
through that process. What didthat process look like for you?
And what was the work that youhad to do to get to forgiveness,
so that you could release and befree from the stuff that you
weren't carrying?
Steve Carter (18:01):
yet? So I pretty much typically either start with
my like, the cognitive the head,I want to study something or I
feel it and then that jumpstraight to Okay, I gotta learn
about it. And so I I just foundmyself so angry. And maybe for
some of you listening right now,you know exactly what that's
like you, someone betrayed you,someone hurt you, and, and even
(18:26):
just the thought of their nameor their face. And you almost
have what John Ortberg refers toas an anger fantasy, like you
envision being in a room withthem and saying what you need to
say. And I was having thesemoments was almost like coming
out of me when I was walking onthe trail or driving in the car.
(18:48):
And, you know, I, Jim Cresa, anamazing therapist says, when you
react, you're just reenactingthe past, or when you get
hysterical, it's most oftenhistorical. So you got to go
back to that place and start tomine it, get to it, learn about
it. And so I started to identifya handful of really, really
(19:14):
painful traumatic moments inthat Willow season. And the
people that were behind it, Inamed the person, not the
institution, I named the personone of those five, and named
what they did. So I just heldthat. But the second thing I
started to do is I looked at thetwo Greek words that are used
for forgiveness. And the firstone is a Fimi. It's in the
(19:35):
Lord's Prayer, forgive us ourdebts as we forgive those who
are indebted to us. And thatcomes from the day of atonement
or Yom Kippur war, and a Fimiliterally means to release and
send away and then the secondGreek word for forgiveness is
the word Karis Maya and we getthe word grace Karis in there,
and then there's a mayaliterally is the grace I've
(19:57):
received, I freely give away soit takes you to to the foot of
the cross. And so I started tohave this little breath prayer.
And I would carry these littlebrown crosses in my pocket. And
anytime one of those five namescame to the forefront, I simply
would just return to the cross.
You need grace I received? Can Igive away? Like I, I wronged
(20:21):
Christ? I've wronged people. Iwant grace. Can I still extend
it to them? And can I releaseit? And can I send it away? And
so the simple little breathprayer cross release, send it
away. And I would pray that Imean, I'd say the first time I
(20:43):
started it, for two people inparticular, I mean, it was, it
was north of 100 times a day.
And slowly but surely, itstarted to get to 75 times a
day, and 40 times a day. And nowyou know, every once awhile,
there might be a flare up onTwitter, something happens that
(21:05):
triggers a memory. But I justsimply go cross really send it
away. And it just, it's, it's away for me to say, I don't want
this in me, because here's thehere's the thing, Joshua,
unforgiveness is a seed. Andthat seed will find soil in your
heart, and they will grow. Andit will produce a fruit of
(21:26):
bitterness, anger, rage, gossip,slander, it's all in Ephesians
chapter four, you see it. Butwhen you choose to forgive, and
you think about John chapter 20,Jesus returns and all the
disciples are like, what? Thisguy just walked through a wall
and he's like, Hey, Peace bewith you. He says that again,
Peace be with you that hebreathes on them resurrection
(21:48):
breath. And then he says,receive the Spirit. And then,
and then he says, he says, likethe most common sense of line
ever he goes, the people youchoose to forgive will be
forgiven. And those that youdon't, won't be. It's like, it's
up to you. Will you choose tokeep this in your system?
Because you don't have thevision of the kingdom of God? Or
(22:11):
will you see a more profoundvision that you were supposed to
walk lightly and freely? Andwatch how Jesus did it, he just
cross release, send it away,cross release. So that just did
a work. I mean, and I often willsay this forgiveness is a solo
sport. Reconciliation takes morepeople. But we got to do that
(22:32):
solo sport. Well, to prepare usfor the day, we can sit across
the table with the people whohave harmed us if that is safe
and okay to do. Yeah,
Joshua Johnson (22:41):
I know that I need to do that as a solo sport,
but I need others, sometimes tohelp me get to that place. Yeah.
You know, like my unforgivenessthat I've been holding, that
sometimes my spiritual directorwill help. And it just comes out
in those sessions, right? Andthen he's like, Okay, is there
anybody you need to forgive is agod? Is it yourself as someone
(23:03):
else? And we walked through thatprocess, a debrief happened last
year, and I was able to walkthrough stages of the last five
years and say, Oh, I do need toforgive this and this. And so it
helps. What is that process thenwith community to help us get to
(23:23):
the place of realizing thatthere is some unforgiveness that
we have to start to do thatwork? ourselves?
Steve Carter (23:31):
Great question.
Yeah, I really think everyone'slife would be a lot healthier if
they had a therapist that theytrust, and they gave permission
to a spiritual director thatthey trust, and were able to
give permission to a mentor, andcommunity. And I think you have,
because each of them see adifferent side of you. Some are
on the payroll, some are not,some are some that you are
(23:54):
paying, you know, and it'ssomething that we're just
friends, but they all have adifferent vantage point. So for
me, it was, I would saydefinitely those four were
really, really helpful, added myspouse, obviously, but I would
say one thing I learned and thiscame from a counselor friend, I
was just sharing with him alittle bit about what was this
(24:18):
these anger fantasies? And hesaid, you know, what's amazing
75 to 80% of my clients who comein and sit with me, don't know
how to forgive. And then hesaid, if you actually in the
church taught people how toforgive, I'd probably be out of
a job. And he's like, it's kindof ironic that you don't and it
(24:40):
wasn't like he wasn't throwingshame or shade. He was like,
just, like genuinely saying thiscan communicate forgiveness so
well, but it's still really,really hard to actually put into
practice. And I had a reallyhard time forgive Giving myself
it's easier for me to want toBrightside and forgive others
(25:03):
was hard for me to forgivemyself. And I think learning and
being able to give permission topeople that were safe to ask the
hard, harder question justcreated new invitations for me
to have to bring before the Lordor a mentor, or therapist or a
(25:24):
friend or spouse. And I thinkfor me, right now, I think so
many of us are living inisolation. I was talking to a
friend, I don't know if Joshua,I'd love to get your thoughts on
this actually, because Irealized when I came up in
ministry, I really worked hardto have mentors in my life. But
I didn't work at the sameearnestness for mentors that I
(25:50):
did for close friends. Because Ithought, Oh, these people are
gonna have like, the keys tolife. But I think as you get
older, you recognize a, if youif you cheat on like community,
or you cheat on mentors, or youcheat on doing the internal
work, or you cheat, like, it's,it's gonna affect your ability
(26:12):
to have almost a 360 view ofwhat it is that maybe the Lord
is inviting you for your nextbest right stuff. And so I think
I came to realize, like, in my30s, man, I'm gonna, I'm gonna
need some stronger community.
And thanks be to God, because alot of those were the people
that were able to who knew mebefore Willow, who knew the
(26:36):
struggles I had knew me that Ithink were able to reflect back?
Hey, I think this is somethingyou got to you got to start
processing through. And thequestion is, do you have the
courage to do it? Yeah,
Joshua Johnson (26:50):
yeah. We need those close friends. Like it's,
it is absolutely necessary. Imean, that's, that's one of the
last things I was I was talkingto my spiritual director about
is I feel like, I don't haveenough of those close friends
anymore. Yeah, I'm somebody Ionly need like, like 123, like,
good, close friends. And I'verealized that some of those
(27:14):
friends are seasonal friendslike they, they're here for a
season. And so I'm trying to reup at the moment. And it's also
takes courage to say, I want toput myself out there and try to
go and find people that I couldgo deep with and be genuine and
be a friend. It's not easy. It'shard. And but I know that when I
(27:38):
have it, it is I mean, I feellike I I'm firm in my foundation
like I'm, I can go and weatherstorms because I have those
people with me. And if I didn'thave those, then the storms
would almost, you know, crippledme. And I needed it. Yeah,
Steve Carter (27:57):
that's so good. So good. I think of like x 16, when
Paul and Silas find themselvesin prison, and they start
singing, while other peoplelisten. And I think it's so much
easier to sing. Or have thatresiliency, like you said to
face the storm when you have acouple of people beside you. And
(28:19):
so long as there's only oneperson beside you. But when when
you're alone, and the voicesinside the voices outside,
trying to be able to see truenorth, it's so much harder, so
much harder.
Joshua Johnson (28:36):
So, you know, my my mother in law passed away at
the end of January. And shelived with us for seven years
really and, and my wife tookcare of her at the end while she
was going through things and itwas just a long process. One of
the things my wife said,Meredith said after maybe a
month after her mom died, is Idon't know who I am anymore. And
(29:01):
that's the process of grief.
Right? Is when you're in thatgrief spot. You're just like who
am I? And it feels like there'sa reorientation. So that feels
to me like a Saturday, it feelslike the silence of Holy Week.
Like, I don't know who I am. I'mdisillusioned. There's
something. There is a death thathappens, whatever it is, or a
(29:22):
change that happened. Now I'msitting here, I don't know who I
am. What is this breathingaspect of this process that you
have in the Saturday when you'redisillusioned and what are you
breathing? What is it? Yeah,it's so
Steve Carter (29:39):
good. What's what's what's really tricky is
for many of us who arestructured, we, you know,
whether we were taking care ofour mother in law, like
Meredith, your wife, or for me,if you asked me what time of the
day and day of the week I couldtell you what I was doing at
Willow I was very structured Allof a sudden when that gets
(30:02):
removed, now you're like, Whatdo I do with my time? So it
affects like what? Thosedisciples they, they were like
we walked with Jesus, we sawmiracles, we, we were with that
Rabbi like we, we we were doinggood now. We're fishing or
hiding or wondering like, whatdo we do now? And I think that
(30:26):
will take us in so manydifferent directions. Sometimes.
For some of us, it takes us toanger, like, it's good that they
did this, or it's frustrationtowards God, why did you take my
mom? Why did you why this whyit's frustration towards a
spouse. It's, it's a sense ofuncertainty. And so for me, in
(30:47):
those Saturday moments, youalmost have to Jedi mind trick
yourself a little bit. Becausein the desert, and you know,
this, when, when the nation, theHebrew people have gotten out of
Egypt, they were pretty close tothe promised land. But it still
(31:07):
took them 40 years. And onescholar says it's because it's
one thing to leave Egypt, it'sanother thing to have Egypt
leave you. And I think that formany people in that liminality,
that liminal space, we don'tknow how to wait well. And so
(31:29):
for me, I hate to wait. i Pleasedon't make me wait for my
Starbucks, like, Please don'tmake like I want to, I want to
live the most efficient lifepossible. And then for some of
us, we waste the wait. Like wefind ourselves in this liminal
space between Friday and Sunday.
And we don't know how to pressin. We just know how to escape
(31:49):
and we just choose someunhealthy escapes. And I
understand it, there's no I'mnot. I'm not shaming anyone in
that. But I, I even wassurprised temptations that I
thought I had been overcome,like overcame when they came
back, because now I realizelike, oh, I don't have structure
(32:09):
I have all this time. Well, Iwas just busy that I didn't have
the time to even entertain thisnow I do. And so it was very
quick and easy to choose anunhealthy escape. So for some of
us, you hate the way some of uswe waste the weight. I think
it's the conscious decision tosay, Lord, help me win the
weight. And let me just trustyou. Whatever, that Egypt is
(32:32):
within me. Do it. Do it ever ittakes to get that out of my
system. And I'll tell you this,I I was in Israel. And I saw a
rabbi and I just I want to gotalk to him. And so I walked up
to him, I didn't know him andintroduced ourselves to each
(32:53):
other. And he said somethinginteresting. And so it was like,
Hey, I had this question when Iwas on the plane. The other
three metaphors in of place inthe Hebrew Scriptures, the Old
Testament, Egypt, the desert,the Promised Land, like in a
person's life, how much time doyou think they spend in Egypt?
Peace of struggle, oppression,slavery, the desert place of
(33:16):
just wandering uncertainty,wondering why he's got where
he's gotten all this and thePromised Land, like the land of
milk and honey, and he laughs atme. He's like, You Americans are
so funny. You think everything'sup into the right now for us. We
think 10 to 15% of our life isin Egypt. 10 to 15% of our life
is on the promised land. And theremaining 70 to 80% is in the
(33:39):
desert, you will just try tobypass the desert at all cost.
But if you actually learned itwould transform the way that you
trust and see and experience thegoodness of God. I did not know
what that guy meant when he saidthat to me in 2014. But come
2018 That That statement waslike oh my goodness, I have
(34:04):
spent my life bypassing thedesert. bypassing the sadness,
bypassing the pain, wasting theweight, hating the weight. And
now the question is will I trustand experience a really deeper
kinder, more gentler and goodGod even? Even when life isn't
(34:24):
up into the right, even in theuncertainty and the unknown?
Yeah,
Joshua Johnson (34:31):
are always just becoming alright. So we never
get to arrive up into there,right? No, it's not we're never
there. Yeah. Even in thepromised land area. We've we're
still becoming and we're stillgrowing. We're still moving
towards Christ. Yeah,
Steve Carter (34:48):
is it isn't it?
Ruth Bell Graham, her tombstonesays her name the date she was
born, he dies and thenunderneath that it says, end of
construction. Thanks for yourpatience on her tombstone. It is
just amazing to me. You know, soI
Joshua Johnson (35:01):
love that.
That's really good. You knowwhat sometimes you know, when
we're in that waiting place,you're a desert. So the 70% of
our life in the desert, let'sthis will be fun. We, we open
ourselves up, but we say, Okay,I have I feel like I've given
everything up away like, I'm notholding anything else. It's just
you Jesus. But then there'sstill the waiting. Is there
(35:22):
resurrection life? Is Sundayreally coming? Like where we're
here in the desert? Is Sundaycoming? Is there resurrection?
Is there a gift? Do we get agift? Going through this
process? What is there at theend? It's not the end because
right? We're still underconstruction. But is there any
(35:42):
good gifts that God gives in themidst of it?
Steve Carter (35:49):
So for me, I think formation can one of the ways
formation can work indiscipleship is through like a
little simple, struggle, sacredprocess, meaning we love simple
truths. You know, God is withme. God has for me, God will
never leave me nor forsake me.
That's a very simple truth. Butthen you go through the desert,
(36:12):
the struggle, the suffering, youget, you get punched in the gut.
And now you have to go, Is Godwith me? Is God for me? Will God
never leave me nor forsake mewhen I don't have a stage or a
congregation? or this or that,like, will he. And that's what
the desert really, really showedme. As I was walking and there's
(36:36):
no concrete. It's a coyotes andrattlesnakes. It's barren. And
then every once awhile, you'dstart to see something bloom.
And it just reminded me of theway that the Lord all throughout
scripture would surprise you.
And I just, I felt like thedisciples were surprised they
(36:58):
didn't see Sunday coming in mostpeople when they die, they die.
They don't get back up. And thatmust have changed everything.
And so I just started havingthis little prayer Lord
surprised me today. Or surprisedme today. Would you surprise me
today? Let me see Sunday today,surprise me today. And what was
(37:20):
amazing is when that's simpletruth, God is with you. God has
for you, God never leave you norforsake you actually can go
through the struggle. And itstill holds up. That statement
isn't simple anymore. It isweighty and sacred. As he is
with me. It was never about howgood of a sermon I preached was
(37:44):
never How about how big of acongregation. And that wasn't
what made him want to be withme. And for me, it was with me,
even when nobody was watching.
He was for me, even at my lowestmoment. And so all of a sudden
now it's like I hear thesephrases, that I would nod my
head in agreement. Now it's likeI put both hands over my heart
(38:05):
and inhale and exhale and saythanks, be to God. And so, for
me, that's that is how do youstay open? To the surprise? How
do you stay open and FirstThessalonians. Four is, you
know, you have to grieve. We hadto grieve with hope. That's,
that's what's different about usin our faith is we know that
(38:28):
Sunday happened, and that he'sreturning again, we have hope,
and how do we hold both? And notjust choose one? Or just use the
other? But how do you hold bothand hold them? Well? Can
Joshua Johnson (38:43):
you define hope for us? I know that in America,
we we don't really know whathope is we just use it. Yeah,
what? So what's a deeper hopefor us? What is what is hope?
Steve Carter (38:58):
So hope for me is, I think one of the most profound
and stunning and beautiful wordsand concepts. You know, in the
Roman culture, they didn't teachhope they actually mocked you if
you if you were a person ofhope, because all they wanted
was you to live in reality. Andif it could not be defined, they
(39:22):
thought it was weak. And so whenPaul writes in Romans five, you
know, talking about sufferingand perseverance, perseverance,
character and character, hopeand hope will not be put to
shame. That would have been sorevolutionary for that church in
Rome, like we are people ofhope. So it's fascinating
(39:43):
though, is the way that we talkabout hope is in this like
whimsy. Far from what the textmeant with hope. It's like, you
know, I hope the University ofMichigan wins the national
championship again next year infootball, like, I hope there's
no traffic on my way to theairport. But that's all
preaching uncertainty. I don'treally know. So what is hope?
(40:06):
And for me, I use this acronymbecause I try to dare people to
hope I had a dare myself tohope. And the D is you desire
something good for thissituation, I desire
reconciliation, I desirehealing, I desires and when you
desire something good, it's,it's, it's desiring heaven to
(40:27):
enter into that situation andthe values of heaven in the way
of Christ to do something inthat moment. So I desire that I
try to, you know, way Paulwrites in his fixer eyes on the
heavenly things set or have thesame mindset as Christ, what
would Christ mindset be for thissituation have that level of
desire and hope? Second, isanything is possible, as Joby
(40:51):
Martin, pastor and JacksonvilleChurch of 1122 says, if the tomb
is empty, anything's possible.
So what's harder, fixing thisrelationship that's broken? or
raising a man from the dead? Ihaven't found I think raising a
man is probably harder. So Ithink that anything is possible,
including this, as that's it theheartbeat of God, restoration,
(41:12):
renewal reconciliation? And whycan I say that because
resurrection are bringcertainty. And when I actually
believe we people of theresurrection, or as Barbara
Johnson says, We are Easterpeople leaving in a Good Friday
world. And so my definition ofhope is when I can desire
something good, believe anythingis possible. Resurrection brings
(41:34):
certainty. And II, I can expectand anticipate that good is on
its way. For me. That's whathope is, it is the expectation
in anticipation, because of theresurrection. And because of the
heart of God, that His goodnessand His redemption, and his
(41:55):
restoration is on its way. Andsometimes it doesn't go as fast
as I like it to go. But I gottakeep my eyes open my ears open
my heart open. Because he's inthe business of surprising us
again, and again and again.
Amen.
Joshua Johnson (42:14):
So good. I think that's really helpful for us to
figure out what does it looklike to hold on to hope? As
we're walking through thesesituations? That's so helpful.
Thank you for that. One of thethings that meant for me, I've a
question of you going throughwhat you did at Willow was very
painful, it was hard. You weretrying to live in an integral
(42:39):
space and have integrity throughthe situation. And, you know, at
that same time, you were havingconversations with your son
about integrity. And he wasasking if you are lived with
integrity during that day. Andyour son said something at the
coffee shop and your book that Ithink was was important. And if
(43:03):
I get it wrong, you can correctme. But you know, as he's
talking about, hey, I thoughtthat you said if you did things
right, then things will go wellfor you. And people, the coffee
shops were yelling at you. Youhad somebody yelling at you. It
just looked like somebody didn'tlike you at that time. When you
stood up and you did something,right? How do we walk our
(43:25):
children through this process,when painful things are
happening to us, and they areseeing it and viewing it? And so
how do you walk alongside ofthem?
Steve Carter (43:35):
Yeah. You know, that's that's probably where so
much of my unforgiveness camebecause I was really, really
worried and fearful of what thattrauma would do for for my kids,
and their faith and their lifeand their heart, their mind,
their body, their soul. So itwas at a local coffee shop and
(43:56):
someone who went to Willow sawme and I was grabbing the drink
for my son and me and he wasfifth grade at the time. And we
were walking, about to turn walkout and this woman just came up
and just You're a coward. Youabandoned us you're not a
leader. And just in front of myson, my son's holding my hand
(44:19):
looking at me looking at herlooking at me looking at her.
And I just, you know, broughthim close. And she went for
about 45 seconds. And I justsaid I as a people in the coffee
shop, were looking and I justlooked back at her and I just
said hey, I appreciate you.
trusting me with your fullfeelings about man. Walk to the
(44:41):
car, and I could feel the angercoming. I'm so frustrated like
just the cortisol rushingthrough my body and I'm putting
my son in the backseat and thecar and he just looks at me
before he like, enters and he'slike, Hey, you always told told
me that if you did the rightthing, you'd be rewarded. So you
either lied to me because thatdidn't feel like a reward, or
(45:07):
you didn't do the right thing.
And I, Joshua, I didn't knowwhat to say like, But thanks be
to God, God gave me like justthis little word in that moment
I just said, but I don't knowwhat to really say to you
outside of when mom was pregnantwith your sister, whose name is
mercy, she threw up two times aday. And it was a hard
(45:30):
pregnancy. But on May 22, whenyou when mom and I held mercy
for the first time, she wasn'tthinking about the vomiting and
the throwing. She was just itwas all worth it. And I don't
know when we're going to holdour version of mercy. But I am
(45:51):
choosing to believe that daywill come. And that's all I
could remind my son of, Icouldn't tell him when I
couldn't tell him how I just hadto almost embody that hope and
that biblical understanding ofit. And then second, hold space
(46:12):
for him to feel and mean, well,we moved to Arizona was a really
dark time for him to be honest.
Because, you know, then COVIDhappens he can't go to school,
it's like it just all and all ofhis friends were back here. And
so it just sitting and and thenhe's asking more questions. Why
did that affect us? Why did thathappen? And, and you're having
(46:35):
to sit present to him, not gettriggered yourself. But then go
on a walk and let that come out,cross released, send it away,
process it with, you know, your,your spiritual mentors and
pastors and friends. But he justhad to give him space to feel
(46:59):
it. And, and I will say this theend, we've always tried to teach
your kids the power of agency tobe able to name their desires
doesn't mean it's always goingto come but we wanted them to be
attuned to that. And as he wasmoving into the, his freshman
year, we asked him, Where wouldyou like to go to high school?
(47:20):
You want to stay in Arizona? Doyou want to? And without missing
a beat? He said, I want to gohome. I said where's home? And
he said, our old neighborhood.
And Joshua, we did the craziestthing we move 20 doors down from
where we used to live. And Idon't know very many people who
(47:41):
move back to their personalChernobyl, but I will tell you,
he felt heard. And in recently,he told me he said he thanks for
listening to my, what I needed.
I know this is probably harder,and maybe not what you chose
would have chosen. But thisfeels like the right move for
(48:02):
me. He's a sophomore in highschool is he's just awesome. But
I just think in that moment, hewasn't saying this. But I I went
back to that coffee shop parkinglot neat. And I was like, just
with tears like in my eye. He'sholding his version of mercy.
Thanks be to God.
Joshua Johnson (48:23):
As beautiful.
Such a beautiful story. ThankGod that he's holding this
version of mercy at the moment.
That's right. That is so good.
So good. If you could tell yourreaders one thing you hope that
they would get from this book,what would you hope your readers
would get?
Steve Carter (48:40):
I hope that you will see the text. See holy
weekend, see your story, yourpain and realize you're not
alone. This isn't a book that'sgoing to tell you all the
answers seven steps to this thisand it's it's one that I believe
(49:01):
you will be able to findyourself in and invite some
deeper conversations with theLord with a spirit with a
friend, a mentor, therapist,Pastor, spiritual director.
Because I think that the griefjourney, maybe a better way to
(49:21):
say it is you can't get toSunday. If you don't experience
Friday and Saturday, and I wantSunday for every single one of
you. And to do that do that.
Well, we have to my definitionof grief is honor what comes up
when change shows up and fullyhonor the Friday and fully
honored the Saturday and makeroom for the surprise of Sunday.
Joshua Johnson (49:46):
So good. Steve, couple questions at the EDS one.
If you go back to your 21 yearold self, what advice would you
give?
Steve Carter (49:55):
You're going to be okay. You're going to be okay.
You keep doing your or internalwork, keep getting after the
thing beneath the thing, keepdoing your work on your story.
And then secondly is it doesn'tmatter. It doesn't matter where
you're at, and how big of anopportunity you have. That still
(50:22):
feels the same about you, nomatter what, no matter what you
do, or what you did. He stillfeels absolutely, fully, madly,
recklessly in love with who youare becoming. Anything
Joshua Johnson (50:36):
you've been reading watching lately, you
could recommend. Oh,
Steve Carter (50:39):
great question. I mean, look at me look. And I've
been reading a bunch of books,you know, when when you write a
book, you don't read outside oflike, because you just don't
want like other thoughts gettingthrough and so you maybe do
research but then it's you getinto writing and just writing.
And then when you get done withthe edited manuscript, you're
like, I can return to my thirdlove, you know, first love the
(51:00):
Lord second love Michiganfootball, third love reading and
like I can just return to it. SoI just read the hidden piece by
Joel Muda. Molly, Darrenwhiteheads, the digital fast.
I'm working my way throughAllison Cook's new book, which
is unbelievable. And thenstronger like water by Andi
(51:22):
Kohler. She has a she has aguided journal that I've been
working through, and then mybuddy Luke Norsworthy just wrote
a book that's, it's such a goodtitle, how to love the life you
already have. And I've justfinished that book two days ago.
(51:44):
And it was remarkable. So yeah,those are some of the stuff I've
been reading. Awesome.
Joshua Johnson (51:48):
Those are great.
How can people go out and getyour book, grieve, breathe,
receive? And then connect withyou? Where would you like to
point people to?
Steve Carter (51:59):
It find me at Steve carter.org or online,
Instagram, Twitter x, orwhatever we call it at Steve
Ryan Carter. So we'd love toconnect, reach out help in any
way.
Joshua Johnson (52:11):
Great. Well, Steve, thank you for this
conversation. It was fantastic.
I love walking through yourstory. And thank you for sharing
that with us. Thank you foropening yourself up and taking
us through your grieving processso that we can feel like we
aren't alone. Like we can do itas well, that we can go through
Friday and go through Saturdayso that we can get to the to the
(52:34):
hope of Sunday, that there isresurrection coming, but that
the grief process is somethingthat we have to go through. But
we have to go through thedesert. And thank you for
sharing the story with your sonas well. I think that was very,
very moving to me and helpful.
And figuring out how do we holdon to hope? How do we dare to
(52:58):
hold on to hope? So thank you,Steve, for this conversation. It
was fantastic.
Steve Carter (53:02):
Thank you, Joshua.
And seriously, I I have someholy envy over the guests that
you've had on the shiftingculture podcast. And so just to
be on this podcast, man, itreally really truly means the
world. So you're doing greatwork. So thanks for having me.
Joshua Johnson (53:17):
Thank you. You too.
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