June 9, 2024 • 34 mins
Imagine your daily behavior, from crossing the street to walking your dog, being constantly tracked and scored. What if a single late payment could derail your financial stability for years? Julee shares a personal story of how one missed deadline drastically impacted her credit score, a sobering reminder of the control such systems can exert. Join us as we explore China's pervasive social credit system and ponder the possibility of similar systems emerging in other countries, comparing it to the FICO credit score that has shaped American financial lives since 1989.
As we dive deeper, the conversation shifts to the broader implications of technological surveillance. From the extensive use of facial recognition to the integration of artificial intelligence in our daily routines, we discuss the erosion of privacy and the potential manipulation of individuals through socioeconomic categorization. Could a social credit system create hierarchical structures reminiscent of caste systems? We reflect on the ethical and practical measures citizens might take to safeguard their privacy and autonomy in a world increasingly driven by digital connections.
Finally, we tackle the complex issue of free speech on social media platforms and the responsibilities of regulating content. How do platforms like YouTube, Twitter, and Facebook balance the need for free expression with the necessity of curbing hate speech? We explore the potential implications of societal controls similar to those in China and the alarming trend of public shaming and surveillance, drawing parallels to dystopian themes in "The Handmaid's Tale." Stay informed, stay questioning, and join us as we navigate these critical discussions in an ever-evolving digital landscape.
Are you ready to take your "spiciness" to the next level?!
Connect with Julee & Michele on Instagram @spicy_midlife_women and send a DM about what resonated most during this episode so they can encourage you with steps forward in your own life.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey everybody.
This is Michelle and this isJulie.
Welcome to a blonde, a brunetteand a mic podcast.
What is our podcast all aboutyou?
Speaker 2 (00:10):
ask Well, we're 250 something.
Speaker 1 (00:13):
Women with life experience, and oh bloody to say
, which is exactly what we'regonna do right now.
Hey Jules, how's it going?
It's good, yeah, it's good.
Good, good, good.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Yeah, we like good Good.
Hey, I'm just going to diveright in because we've been
talking about this a little bitjust in advance of recording.
And I still just find it sounthinkable that, because of
where we live in the UnitedStates, you know, we have so
much more freedom than in othercountries.
But the thought of havingsomebody keeping track of, like,
(00:49):
how I cross the street or if Iwalk my dog without a leash or
whatever, seems really severe tome.
And that's what happens incountries like China that have a
social credit score.
Speaker 1 (01:02):
Yeah, I know we brought that up when we were
talking about the iPhonesituation.
A couple credit score.
Yeah, I know I brought that upwhen we were talking about the
iPhone situation a coupleepisodes ago and we decided we
needed to talk more on thattopic.
So here, we are.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
Well, michelle had mentioned about the social
credit score in China and I wasmentioning this is in that
episode we had a couple timesago, a couple episodes ago, but
I was mentioning how I saw thatshow, black Mirror, and one of
the episodes in that show waskind of about the same thing,
where it was a little bitdifferent.
Like you had your phone, peoplecould rate you based on their
(01:38):
interactions with you and kindof like you do with an Uber
driver or Airbnb, which ofcourse you know I'm familiar
with.
So if they gave you a like, ifyou weren't polite or you
disregarded somebody or you know, didn't hold the door open for
somebody, things like that, theywould lower your point, they
would give you like low pointsand then that would affect your
(02:00):
ability to even get an apartmentor get things like that.
In this show and I'm thinking Iremember watching that- going.
Speaker 3 (02:11):
How creepy is that yeah.
Speaker 2 (02:11):
But it's really happening in other countries.
Yes, it is.
Specifically, we were going totalk today about China, because
that seems to be where it's comealong, but, based on some of
the information that you'vepulled together, I don't think
we're as far behind as we think.
Yeah, so I wanted you to sharea little bit of your thought
process on kind of where thiscame from originally.
Speaker 1 (02:31):
Well, and there's, to your point, other countries.
It's really kind of been aprocess of unveiling in China,
but you know they're starting tosee the things being laid out
in countries like Canada, the UK, scotland, australia, different
things, and here really notspecifically for a social credit
(02:53):
score, but when you think about, you know, going to a
completely digital cashlesssociety and all the AI
technology we have the, all thecameras that are going in
everywhere, facial recognitionthings that we have to do now,
and I just think those are allthings laying groundwork for
(03:15):
something like the social creditscore.
And when you think about whereit stems from, julie and I were
talking about this just a littlebit ago, before we started
recording, but we were talkingabout the FICO credit score.
Speaker 2 (03:30):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (03:31):
And you know how that was put into place.
In 1989 is when that came tofruition.
Prior to that, you know peoplejust they work jobs, they had
money, they would buy homes andyou, you know how it was in the
first half of the century here.
And really like I said, till1989.
Hence, in comes the FICO score,which really, I think had an
(03:56):
effect on the way things thenstarted moving forward through
the next generation with regardto the American dream and how
people were impacted by therating that they were giving
given and that we still are,based on how we handle ourselves
financially.
(04:16):
Don't get me wrong.
It's, it's an important thing.
Speaker 2 (04:20):
It's a financial score.
So I guess I I've always in ourconversation we were talking
about this and I look at it likethe FICO score is a culmination
of your three different majorcredit bureaus and there are so
many things that affect each oneof those credit scores that is
so difficult to get adjusted oraddressed or anything.
(04:41):
And being in the industry wherepeople buy houses, obviously
this is something that comes upquite a bit, because you can
literally be late one day Well,30 days plus one day, I guess on
a credit card payment and itwill screw you up for three
years.
It'll show as a late paymentand it can affect your ability
to get a loan for a house even.
(05:02):
Or, if you're able to get aloan for a house, then your
interest you're able to get aloan for a house then your
interest rate's going to end upbeing higher because your credit
scores plummeted because ofthat one error that was made and
I had that situation come up afew years back where it was
something to do with an autopayment through Chase and they
had canceled an auto paymentthat was on a credit card.
(05:24):
I don't remember what thecircumstances were, but it was
something.
I didn't cancel it, it wasoverridden or something.
Anyway the payment never wentthrough and so I had no idea.
I thought the payment had gonethrough.
So when I go to check, boom,there's no payment and it
affected my credit score.
Like my credit score probablydropped 40 points, something
like that, and this was backquite a ways ago, but it took a
(05:46):
long time to be able to havethat not be a topic of
conversation.
Anytime, I was planning to dosomething that involved a large
loan like a house or somethinglike that.
It came up and it did affect theability that I had to get the
best interest rate.
And it was one thing, michelle,you know it's like I've always
(06:06):
paid my bills.
Everything's always on time,all that kind of stuff.
So this coming up was like well.
Speaker 1 (06:11):
And I guess that's the thing it's like.
Is that really telling when youreally step outside of what you
just said?
Is that really telling of yourfinancial response?
You know how you handleyourself fiscally by that one
payment not being on there,which has an explanation, and I
(06:32):
guess that's the difference.
Prior FICO, back in the day,you would just go and you would
explain to I don't know the bankor whatever this happened,
here's the situation, et cetera,whatever.
Yeah, and they could havechanged hopefully or yeah there
was so much more on you knowbeing a person of your word.
Speaker 2 (06:51):
Well, and that's what this whole thing in china is
has originally, uh, been derivedfrom.
Is this social credit score wasa way to gauge trustworthiness,
and it's kind of extended offinto things that are not just
having to do with trust, youknow, like integrity, honesty,
(07:11):
um, sincerity.
How do you gauge some of thesethings?
Morality, these are all kind ofmore subjective things,
depending upon who you'retalking to and what their
opinion is on those sorts ofthings, you know.
Speaker 1 (07:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:24):
And all of that, obviously rolled up into one
ball, would be trustworthiness.
But I don't think.
If you're looking at it fromthat example that I gave you, I
don't see how that one situationdid the view of me being
trustworthy.
It was just a mistake that wasmade in the bank.
It was like pulling teeth toget that fixed.
Speaker 1 (07:43):
And I guess too, you have to ask yourself really like
who are these?
Speaker 2 (07:47):
bureaus Right?
Well, they have control overwhat you're able to and not able
to do unless you're using cashand we are not a cashless
society yet, and I'm not reallyan advocate for that myself.
I think it's kind of dangerousto be.
It's very convenient, don't getme wrong, but it's like there's
places already out there thatare cashless and it's like you
have to use your card foreverything.
(08:09):
Even like the Seahawks stadiumyou know, or the Mariners
stadium or something you can'tuse cash for anything there.
So I don't know I have a hardtime with that.
It's not like I use a lot ofcash anyway, but I think it's
necessary to have that abilityto be able to pay your bills,
you know, if you want to thatway.
But the problem with cash isthat the government can't keep
(08:32):
track of it.
Speaker 1 (08:33):
Well, that which is why they want a cashless society
right.
Yeah, that's why they, andthat's that's one of the things
I say, laying groundwork forthis, that those are.
That's one of the things thatwould be part of that, because
if we're a cashless society, inthese federally run institutions
(08:54):
, the banks, the government hastheir hand in it.
Speaker 2 (08:58):
We do these things are to are to measure your risk,
as a like to lend money to youor what have you, and it's like
the banks are very wellprotected, very well protected.
We've seen that through, likethe crash in 2000.
I mean, every bank wasprotected and people were
screwed.
And then you get into, you knowCOVID and all of these
(09:20):
landlords that were having, youknow people renting their places
that couldn't pay their rent orweren't paying their rent were
the ones that were screwed.
The banks weren't screwed.
So it's like the common personis the one that's really getting
the nuts and bolts of that.
But in the US it's really beenrelated to credit for the most
part, right.
So we're seeing like and we'reusing China as an example
(09:42):
because it seems to be thefurthest along, but it's
extended now into all of theseother things that have to do
with how you're viewed in thatsociety, how you're able to move
throughout that society in waysin regard to financial
situations or educationalsituations, your job.
All of those things aredirectly related to this credit
(10:05):
score that you have, and it'snot even a perfect system.
I mean, I don't know what aperfect system would look like
in that regard, but my readingand my understanding has been
that by it starting outoriginally as a communist
government thing right.
Like an overarching thing andhas gone into each province and
(10:26):
state or county, I guess youcould say, and they're able to
make their own determinations onhow they want to use the social
credit score and they'redifferent from place to place.
I think there's probably thingsthat are the same, that have to
do with, you know, finances andthings like that, but punitive
results or the benefits andthings maybe are not even the
(10:47):
same from place to place, kindof like, you know, in the United
States we have federalgovernment laws and then we have
state government laws.
It's similar to that, which Iwas kind of surprised because I
was thinking this is a communistgovernment.
How could they possibly begiving freedom to make choices
and decisions to each one ofthese?
Speaker 1 (11:05):
entities, but they're all part of the communist
government, so maybe that's whythey're having to yeah part of
the communist government, somaybe that's why Having to yeah,
I don't know.
I have a news thing from TikTokthat I found, oh yeah.
That kind of explains thesocial credit score what's going
on over in China.
Speaker 2 (11:18):
Okay, can you play it ?
Speaker 1 (11:19):
Yeah, let's just take a listen here official
intelligence to track just abouteverything.
Speaker 3 (11:25):
This note In some of China's largest cities, a
high-tech effort is underway tobust low-level offenders
jaywalkers Cameras record themgoing through intersections,
zero in on their face and thenpublicly shame them on nearby
video screens.
It's all part of the Chinesegovernment's new social credit
(11:46):
system where people's dailybehavior is monitored and rated.
Where people's daily behavioris monitored and rated, I think
it's a good thing.
This woman said it makes peoplemore honest.
But this social credit ratinggoes far beyond a traditional
credit score, which is based onyour finances.
China's version factors ineverything from jaywalking to
(12:09):
smoking on trains, to buying toomany video games.
If your score gets too low, youcan be banned from buying plane
tickets, renting a house orgetting a loan.
Nearly 15 million people havealready been prevented from
traveling.
Journalist Leo Hu is one ofthem.
He recently tried to book aflight but was told he couldn't
because he was on the list ofuntrustworthy people.
I can't buy property.
(12:31):
My child can't go to privateschool, he says.
You feel like you're beingcontrolled by the list all the
time.
Chinese technology firms suchas SenseTime are helping the
government effort by developingadvanced cameras that use
artificial intelligence to trackjust about everything.
Speaker 1 (12:48):
There you go.
Oh my gosh.
Speaker 2 (12:49):
Artificial intelligence it's coming To
track everything.
Speaker 1 (12:53):
And again, another piece of the puzzle laying
groundwork for these types ofthings, while this Trump
situation has been happening inthe news.
It kind of you know, hassilently behind the scenes taken
(13:15):
place, but he vetoed a billthat was to be passed in regard
to ESG, which is environmental,social and corporate governance
laws.
Speaker 2 (13:25):
Okay, and this was a bipartisan bill, yes, but
striking it down.
Basically, his veto was toeliminate that bill and that
bill was all related to this AIand some of the things that you
were talking about in regard togroundwork that you're seeing
kind of being laid in differentcountries.
Speaker 1 (13:44):
Yeah Right, so, yeah, so there's a lot of people
trying to push it through.
Speaker 2 (13:49):
Well, given that it was bipartisan, I find that kind
of interesting.
Speaker 1 (13:51):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:53):
Usually it's one over the other, but I mean the fact
that it was both sides wantingto participate almost equally.
Yeah, and then he vetoed it.
I find that really interesting,yeah.
Speaker 1 (14:03):
I think that you know it's taken some time over in
China to, you know, have thisevolve Probably not as difficult
there because it is a communistcountry.
I think it's going to be moreof a challenge here.
But now, when you think aboutthe last few years and all the
things that have taken place fewyears being, you know, could be
(14:24):
the last five years or evenlonger, but really the last five
when you think about some ofthe things and everything being
connected back to our cell phoneconversation, you know the
cellular phones and you think ofthe voice recognition, facial
recognition, artificialintelligence cameras are going
up everywhere here too.
Speaker 2 (14:46):
Well, in the research that I had done, there are over
200 million cameras that arethroughout China, yeah, and so I
was saying to you that that hasgot to be like a massive
database.
But I mean, obviously peopleare not watching all of these
videos, right?
Speaker 1 (15:04):
I mean, you can't yeah.
Speaker 2 (15:06):
But with AI or facial recognition, and things like
that they're able to see thisperson jaywalking and just send
them a.
Well, actually, they're noteven sending them anything,
they're just deducting.
They're just taking money out.
Speaker 1 (15:17):
That's what I mean with the cash, yeah.
Speaker 2 (15:21):
They have access to your bank account.
Speaker 1 (15:22):
Yeah, I mean the government has access to my bank
account because I do my taxesevery year just electronically.
Yeah, I do too.
Everything is Two years ago.
I had to do that.
It was really kind of creepywhen I had to set up to make
payments to the IRS.
I had to hold my phone.
(15:43):
It did this whole facialrecognition thing.
I don't know why they need allthat, but I had to do it in
order to move forward withmaking payments to the IRS.
You know, you think about theDNA bandwagon that everybody's
on and sending your DNA and andand, oh the like, the 23 and B,
yeah.
That's why you know your blood,your DNA and then all of the
(16:03):
technology groundwork that thereis being laid and everything
being connected.
And you think about thepandemic you know there was talk
of, you know for a while justkind of fear tactics, I think,
but you know, not being able tofly without a vaccine passport,
or there were things that theywere talking about then and you
know just different things.
(16:24):
But, yeah, a lot of ground workbeing laid, especially with
artificial intelligence now andyour mobile phones, your TVs,
everything is smart, everythingis smart.
Speaker 2 (16:35):
So what can we do?
I mean just as basic citizens,you know, to try and I mean some
people might not care Like wewere listening to the article or
the news article that you hadplayed and they interviewed some
woman.
And you know the translation wasI actually kind of like it
because I think it keepseverybody honest.
And as I'm listening to thathonestly, I'm going back to the
(16:59):
conversations that we had around.
I don't remember which episodeit was, but I was talking about
oh, I was talking about thePatriot Act and how, after 9-11,
the Patriot Act went into placeand people were really
concerned about their personalinformation, emails, phone, all
that kind of stuff being sharedand I was saying to myself self,
(17:20):
you know, at that time, andeven two weeks ago or three
weeks ago, I was saying, well,what's the big deal, you know,
if you're not doing anythingwrong?
And now I'm sitting herelistening to all this stuff and
I'm like, oh hell, no, I don'twant anybody.
I mean, it's not like I haveanything to hide, but I don't
want everybody having access tomy every move.
Speaker 1 (17:40):
But I think it's really creepy.
It's a manipulation type ofsystem that doesn't really make
somebody honest.
No, I think people canmanipulate the system.
You're held hostage, yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:51):
It holds you hostage, I think when it starts, when it
starts putting you in likethese socioeconomic categories,
which starts really kind ofstarting to look like a caste
system or a hierarchy system,Because along with the
socioeconomic piece of it comesall of this other stuff.
Speaker 1 (18:11):
You know where you were born, how you were raised,
what school you went to, whatkind of education you received
and if you're a part of thissocial system, like in China,
like that guy that was on thatarticle was saying yeah, his
kids aren't even allowed to goto the school he wants to send
them to, because that he canscore, that he maybe used to be
able to afford to send them to,but maybe because of the
(18:34):
blacklisting Now I mean that'swhat he said he's always feels
like he's being controlled bythe list.
Speaker 2 (18:40):
So I think where that has really started on a wide
range in China has to do withbusinesses more than people, and
so if you have a negative score, social score, as a company,
then that directly impacts whowill work with you.
It directly impacts probablywhat kind of loans, if any, that
you can receive.
It probably impacts probablywhat kind of loans, if any, that
(19:00):
you can receive.
It probably impacts a lot ofdifferent things, but those
particular business owners are,it looks like, maybe affected
personally as well.
So the whole thing aboutschooling, so that I mean it's a
lot of stuff that directlyrelates to someone's future and
what they're able to do.
So let's just say you have a 15year old kid, 14 year old kid,
(19:24):
that you want to go to someprestigious high school and they
can't go because your credits,your social credit score, is not
in the category or in the rangeor whatever.
So when that kid ends up goingto whatever school they end up
being able to go to, then whenthey get out of school and are
18, they probably start on theirown social credit score.
Speaker 1 (19:45):
I would think, I would imagine.
So they're not under theirparents anymore.
I don't know the answer to that, but I would imagine yeah, at a
certain age.
Speaker 2 (19:50):
But there comes a point in time when you're
talking about the social creditscore where, like in America,
look at how difficult it is forkids to get assistance from
their parents if their parentsmake too much money, right, even
if their parents are not ableto provide any financial support
for their education, yeah, youknow they're screwed.
I mean, look at the studentloans that we're seeing.
(20:13):
you know with people here thatthey're going into so much debt
for yeah all of those thingswould impact their social credit
score in theory, but theyreally don't have a choice if
they want to get an educationand they have no other way to be
able to afford it.
So, yeah, there's a lot ofdifferent things that impact it.
What are you kind of seeing inyour crystal ball for the United
(20:34):
States, just based oneverything that we've looked at
and talked about?
Speaker 1 (20:39):
I think that eventually we will all have I
mean, chances are that.
I don't think it's toofarfetched that we would all
have a digital identity, and Ithink that we are not far from
something maybe not the same aswhat this looks like in China,
(20:59):
but I think in some ways wealready are under the same kind
of scrutiny.
Speaker 2 (21:04):
We just don't realize it, we just don't realize it.
So when you were talking beforeabout how the groundwork's
being laid, I think you're rightwhen you and I'm not a
conspiracy theorist, I don'tlook at things that way, you
don't have to give thatdisclaimer.
Speaker 1 (21:16):
Come on now.
You give disclaimers all thetime.
Not that I'm not a conspiracytheorist, Anyways.
Speaker 2 (21:22):
yeah, because I know a lot of people prefacing all of
this by saying I'm really not,but yeah that that lends more
credence to it really in my mindbecause I'm not, but at the
same time kind of see some ofthese things happening, and I've
always been really I wouldn'tsay oblivious, but acknowledge
or just make a mental note whenI see something that I think is
odd, but I don't really delveinto it too much.
(21:44):
And this kind of stuff I thinkwill affect us or hit us without
us really realizing it.
Speaker 1 (21:51):
It's coming in different ways media if we don't
abide by certain rules andregulations on what we post or
tweets or different things likethat there is.
There's somebody, board ofpeople somewhere that decide
that it doesn't get to go out.
That's just, and YouTube too,that they've been going through
(22:14):
a lot of different, you know,for people who are labeled as a
conspiracy theorist CandaceOwens, and a lot of different
people that have platforms thatthey really speak out about a
lot of these types of things.
Speaker 2 (22:26):
And that there's the whole argument about free speech
on a lot of this, which hasalso been an argument for some
of the socials you know, likethe Twitters and the TikToks and
Instagram, facebook, all ofthem where people feel like they
should be able to say or dowhatever they want to because,
even if it's hate speech, evenif it's detrimental to another,
you know, group of people orwhatever they're saying, free
(22:48):
speech, they can do it.
And who's going to bemonitoring that?
Speaker 1 (22:51):
And so how do you, how do you feel about that?
Because that's where I wasgoing with that.
It's like they take it down.
They don't take all of it down,but they take it down and they
make them abide by certain rulesand regulations, which I know
there's got to be some of thatin place.
But like what you were justtalking about and I'm not saying
I'm for it or against, but Isthat a disclaimer?
(23:12):
Maybe?
Speaker 2 (23:14):
without saying it was .
Speaker 1 (23:15):
Not for it or against it, but as I was listening to
you and with regard to freespeech kind of going down, I was
listening to you and withregard to free speech kind of
going down, a rabbit hole here.
But with regard to free speechand a platform like YouTube not
even going to say the socials,but like YouTube why can't
people report on and talk aboutthe things that they want to
talk about?
They have their own following.
Speaker 2 (23:37):
I guess it has to do with legalities, like if it's a
legal topic, I mean if you're,if you're a Ku Klux Klan member
and you want to report on thebig festival that you had and
you know burning, I don't knowwhat they do but you know what I
mean.
Let's just say it's somethingextreme like that and it racist
and it's like hate filled andall that.
(23:57):
I mean do they have the rightto do that?
Speaker 1 (24:00):
Do they?
Speaker 2 (24:00):
I don't know.
Why don't they?
Well, that's my question.
Speaker 1 (24:03):
It's like I personally have no desire to see
or hear about any of that stuff, then you wouldn't be watching
Right, then you wouldn't begoing to that channel and
watching it.
So it's the same.
It's just like and I know Ibrought up I don't know why
because she's prettycontroversial about a lot of
topics that she addresses.
But same thing if I'm not coolwith Candace Owens and a lot of
(24:27):
the things she talks about, I'mnot headed over to her channel
to watch it.
So why does it?
I mean, do people not?
have the wherewithal to make thechoice, okay, so maybe a social
credit score would be a goodthing, based on what you just
said yeah, I don't think every.
Speaker 2 (24:38):
I think we can't generalize and put everybody in
the same bucket.
Some people have the mindsetthat they're like gosh I
wouldn't really invest any timein that and then others don't.
We are getting down a rabbithole.
There are a lot of things thatare on the internet and that are
on like the dark web.
I guess I've never been on there, but you know that are a lot of
these things we're talkingabout, like Andrew's shown me
(24:59):
videos that are just horrific,that you wouldn't see on like a
regular YouTube video.
I don't know what channelthey're on, but they're really
graphic and, you know, have todo with, like, the wars that are
going on or whatever, andthat's not anything that I would
go seek out.
But I also am kind of like isour society so effed up that we
need to allow all that stuff too?
(25:20):
So I'm really I struggle withthat because I don't think we
need to have evil people orpeople sharing evil content or
sharing evil things with peoplethat are going to perpetuate
evil acts.
Speaker 1 (25:32):
There's so much of it out there, though, jules.
Speaker 2 (25:34):
I know.
Speaker 1 (25:34):
That they mask themselves as not evil.
Speaker 2 (25:37):
Here's the thing.
What we're talking about iskind of interesting because we
have, in the United States, waymore freedom to be able to do a
lot of these things that thegovernment or whomever isn't
saying that you can't do,whereas in countries like China
you get in a shitload of troublefor doing something like that
probably right, I mean a lot oftrouble, and who?
knows, you could get thrown injail for long periods of time or
(25:59):
whatever, without a trial.
I mean, there could be a lot ofthings.
So the thought of that type ofsociety, living in that type of
society, scares me.
Yeah, me too to or have anopinion about something or go
wherever we want to go, butthere's still parameters.
Speaker 1 (26:21):
It will come in slow steps, yeah, and we'll adapt and
change, just like we have withall of technology.
Well, think about it.
Speaker 2 (26:29):
There are rules in place, like, for example, other
countries have rules in placethat if you are a convicted
felon, you can't enter theircountry.
So that's a rule, like inCanada.
Canada has that rule which Ithink is kind of funny.
Speaker 1 (26:42):
I guess Trump won't be going to Canada.
He won't be going to.
Speaker 2 (26:43):
Canada.
He'll be doing all zoom callsif he's elected.
For God's sake, oh boy, that'sa whole other deal.
Yeah, but anyway, I'm justsaying it's like there are rules
that are in place.
I mean that's why we have ajustice system.
Speaker 3 (26:55):
That's why we have you know court system.
This is not anarchy and a freefor all here.
Speaker 2 (27:00):
But where is that dividing line?
Or that delicate balance thatyou can achieve by being in that
right place but not having itcontrolled to the degree that
you're seeing it controlled inother areas.
Speaker 1 (27:13):
It's almost like they take the choice away from you.
Speaker 2 (27:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:16):
You know, I know we go back and forth.
When I talk about getting thevaccine or not getting the
vaccine, you say it's a choice.
I'm like no, they didn't haveit.
Speaker 2 (27:24):
It's a total choice.
Speaker 1 (27:25):
People didn't, but that's how I'm saying some of
this will be.
Speaker 2 (27:28):
It's like well the choice is to either get it or
the consequences are too severe.
Speaker 1 (27:33):
In this case, like you're talking about the vaccine
and, as an example, you didn'thave to get the vaccine but you
potentially could lose your job,or there are places you can't
go, and that's what I'm sayingand that's where these things
differentiate, because to me,yes, you can still choose, but
the consequences are such thatit's your livelihood just like
(27:54):
in some of these social scoresituations that we're talking
about, you can still choose.
I can still choose to be on acollege campus I'm talking about
in America, here now, if it wasin place, and you know if I'm
protesting or jaywalking anddoing a deal.
I'm making that choice, knowingwhat the consequences are, when
(28:14):
you're really feeling likeyou're just doing what is
morally right to you.
Speaker 2 (28:18):
I think when you think about during the pandemic,
it's like do you think thatthere was an option for people
to get vaccinated there in China?
Oh, I'm sure An option.
Speaker 1 (28:27):
Not no, I'm sure, I'm sure there wasn't yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:31):
No option.
I doubt there was an option.
Or if there was an option, thenagain the consequences were
severe.
But here we're just all arguingabout shit all over the place.
Nobody wants to do this.
Everybody all arguing aboutshit all over the place.
Nobody wants to do this,everybody doesn't.
I mean, it's just it's so muchdifferent.
There's parts of having onevoice that I think are valuable,
(28:52):
but it can also be superdangerous.
There's definite things thatthe only time we've ever really
come together per se as acountry and had a voice that was
very much in harmony was after9-11.
I mean, really World, world WarII after World War II is the
same thing.
So the social credit scorethere is focused on financial,
judicial, so punishment in thejudicial system.
(29:13):
Commercial meaning anti-fraud,trying to coordinate with a lot
of the companies.
So those are more companiesthat are commercial, trying to
coordinate more with companiesSocietal, supporting this moral
society, and I think that'swhere that big component comes
in of shaming.
Speaker 1 (29:30):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:30):
And the government, literally, you know, shaming
people by putting what theirindiscretion is up on a big
screen in the middle of the city, yeah, it's crazy, yeah, in
your neighborhoods.
Speaker 1 (29:41):
So letting people that you live with know that you
suck, yeah, because you didthat.
Speaker 2 (29:46):
Have you ever seen the show Handmaid's Tale?
Speaker 1 (29:48):
No, oh man.
Speaker 2 (29:50):
You got to watch that one.
I mean, it's a society that istaken over by people who are
real fundamentalists.
It's kind of dark and creepy,but people have no rights.
Speaker 1 (30:01):
Yeah, yeah I digress.
But definitely an interestingtopic.
I know when I brought it up acouple of weeks ago you hadn't
even heard of it, no.
So that's why I thought itwould be fun to just kind of
bring some of the things tolight, dive into it a little bit
, share some of the informationand make sure people know that,
just to you know, pay attentionto things that are happening and
(30:22):
what are some of theinformation and make sure people
know that, just to you know.
Pay attention to things thatare happening and what are some
of the reasons behind it.
Well, and ask questions and askquestions, and I do think a lot
of things that are happening inthe US are based on some of
these things, and it just willnot surprise me if, down the
road I'm not saying it'll belabeled as such, but I think
(30:43):
we're already like I said,there's a lot of things that are
similar to it, and especiallywith the artificial intelligence
now in play in so many facets,so many facets of what we do, in
the workplace in, just like ineverything, it's everywhere.
now it's weird because all of asudden it was kind of this, you
(31:03):
heard.
Sudden, it was kind of this,you heard about it and kind of.
Speaker 2 (31:05):
And now I can write papers for people and everything
.
Yeah, that's what.
Speaker 1 (31:07):
I'm saying it's just like it's everywhere now and
it's a thing very quickly thathappened very quickly, so I'm
going to make sure that you arenot on the blacklist, ok.
I appreciate that yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:19):
I do.
Speaker 1 (31:20):
I'll put in some recommendations for you You're
not smoking on trains and youknow, walking my dog off the
leash.
Speaker 2 (31:32):
No leash, no leash.
Speaker 1 (31:32):
Yeah, and please don't shame me on public
monitors.
Yeah, I mean I might make yousit out in the front yard with a
sign I got drunk last night.
No, I didn't, I know.
I'm just saying.
Speaker 2 (31:41):
You want to shame me?
That would be the way to do ityeah.
All right.
Well to all of you out there.
Just know that this is not asuper dark topic, but it's
definitely a topic that isimportant, probably for you to
at least be aware of.
Speaker 1 (31:53):
And I've learned a lot just preparing for it.
Interesting, Just veryinteresting.
And when you hear some of thethings it's like, wow, I know
you don't think things canhappen here, but they do.
Speaker 2 (32:02):
They do, and I think what's important to note is that
things are happening in theselittle segments that you don't
even really notice.
Speaker 1 (32:10):
Yeah, you just adjust and it's like oh, under the
guise of a specific thing andthen it's turned into something
else.
Speaker 2 (32:18):
A lot of it has to do with the manipulation of
language on different bills andthe government and stuff like
that, because then you can.
If it's more open-ended, thenit can be used for a lot of
different things.
So I don't know.
I feel like it's important tobe aware.
Speaker 1 (32:29):
I mean when we're talking.
When I was talking before, Iknow we're wrapping this up, but
it just made me think of youknow how everything's smart, and
I learned recently that your TVsmart TVs have microphones also
.
That's true, and there is asetting so you can turn off,
like where you don't want your.
You can turn the microphone upto share information also.
Oh, okay, so everything's smart.
(32:52):
Everything has microphones,everything has cameras.
Speaker 2 (32:54):
And we, no, we're not walking away.
Paranoid.
Speaker 1 (32:57):
Not at all.
But we have microphones, rightBlonde brunette and a mic here.
Yeah, we're not tied into theinternet just yet, though.
Speaker 2 (33:04):
They're just in our little Zoom recorder.
Speaker 1 (33:06):
For fun here.
So hopefully you all got someinformation that will be useful,
or just a little something thatmakes you scratch your head and
go, hmm, and educate yourselfjust a little bit more.
You can find us out on allthose socials Facebook, tiktok
and Instagram so check us outand until next time, have a
(33:28):
wonderful, wonderful week guys.
Listen to that positivity.
I was just going to say peaceout.
Speaker 2 (33:34):
Yeah that we're doing that too.
Speaker 1 (33:35):
Yeah, okay.
Speaker 2 (33:36):
Make this little thing with my fingers when I say
that.
Speaker 1 (33:38):
Yeah, so envision that Peace out.
Speaker 2 (33:40):
See you guys next week.
Speaker 1 (33:41):
All right, everybody Bye, bye, outro Music.
Hey everybody.
This is Michelle and this isJulie.
Welcome to a blonde, a brunetteand a mic podcast.
What is our podcast all aboutyou?
Speaker 2 (00:10):
ask Well, we're 250 something.
Speaker 1 (00:13):
Women with life experience, and oh bloody to say
, which is exactly what we'regonna do right now.
Hey Jules, how's it going?
It's good, yeah, it's good.
Good, good, good.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Yeah, we like good Good.
Hey, I'm just going to diveright in because we've been
talking about this a little bitjust in advance of recording.
And I still just find it sounthinkable that, because of
where we live in the UnitedStates, you know, we have so
much more freedom than in othercountries.
But the thought of havingsomebody keeping track of, like,
(00:49):
how I cross the street or if Iwalk my dog without a leash or
whatever, seems really severe tome.
And that's what happens incountries like China that have a
social credit score.
Speaker 1 (01:02):
Yeah, I know we brought that up when we were
talking about the iPhonesituation.
A couple credit score.
Yeah, I know I brought that upwhen we were talking about the
iPhone situation a coupleepisodes ago and we decided we
needed to talk more on thattopic.
So here, we are.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
Well, michelle had mentioned about the social
credit score in China and I wasmentioning this is in that
episode we had a couple timesago, a couple episodes ago, but
I was mentioning how I saw thatshow, black Mirror, and one of
the episodes in that show waskind of about the same thing,
where it was a little bitdifferent.
Like you had your phone, peoplecould rate you based on their
(01:38):
interactions with you and kindof like you do with an Uber
driver or Airbnb, which ofcourse you know I'm familiar
with.
So if they gave you a like, ifyou weren't polite or you
disregarded somebody or you know, didn't hold the door open for
somebody, things like that, theywould lower your point, they
would give you like low pointsand then that would affect your
(02:00):
ability to even get an apartmentor get things like that.
In this show and I'm thinking Iremember watching that- going.
Speaker 3 (02:11):
How creepy is that yeah.
Speaker 2 (02:11):
But it's really happening in other countries.
Yes, it is.
Specifically, we were going totalk today about China, because
that seems to be where it's comealong, but, based on some of
the information that you'vepulled together, I don't think
we're as far behind as we think.
Yeah, so I wanted you to sharea little bit of your thought
process on kind of where thiscame from originally.
Speaker 1 (02:31):
Well, and there's, to your point, other countries.
It's really kind of been aprocess of unveiling in China,
but you know they're starting tosee the things being laid out
in countries like Canada, the UK, scotland, australia, different
things, and here really notspecifically for a social credit
(02:53):
score, but when you think about, you know, going to a
completely digital cashlesssociety and all the AI
technology we have the, all thecameras that are going in
everywhere, facial recognitionthings that we have to do now,
and I just think those are allthings laying groundwork for
(03:15):
something like the social creditscore.
And when you think about whereit stems from, julie and I were
talking about this just a littlebit ago, before we started
recording, but we were talkingabout the FICO credit score.
Speaker 2 (03:30):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (03:31):
And you know how that was put into place.
In 1989 is when that came tofruition.
Prior to that, you know peoplejust they work jobs, they had
money, they would buy homes andyou, you know how it was in the
first half of the century here.
And really like I said, till1989.
Hence, in comes the FICO score,which really, I think had an
(03:56):
effect on the way things thenstarted moving forward through
the next generation with regardto the American dream and how
people were impacted by therating that they were giving
given and that we still are,based on how we handle ourselves
financially.
(04:16):
Don't get me wrong.
It's, it's an important thing.
Speaker 2 (04:20):
It's a financial score.
So I guess I I've always in ourconversation we were talking
about this and I look at it likethe FICO score is a culmination
of your three different majorcredit bureaus and there are so
many things that affect each oneof those credit scores that is
so difficult to get adjusted oraddressed or anything.
(04:41):
And being in the industry wherepeople buy houses, obviously
this is something that comes upquite a bit, because you can
literally be late one day Well,30 days plus one day, I guess on
a credit card payment and itwill screw you up for three
years.
It'll show as a late paymentand it can affect your ability
to get a loan for a house even.
(05:02):
Or, if you're able to get aloan for a house, then your
interest you're able to get aloan for a house then your
interest rate's going to end upbeing higher because your credit
scores plummeted because ofthat one error that was made and
I had that situation come up afew years back where it was
something to do with an autopayment through Chase and they
had canceled an auto paymentthat was on a credit card.
(05:24):
I don't remember what thecircumstances were, but it was
something.
I didn't cancel it, it wasoverridden or something.
Anyway the payment never wentthrough and so I had no idea.
I thought the payment had gonethrough.
So when I go to check, boom,there's no payment and it
affected my credit score.
Like my credit score probablydropped 40 points, something
like that, and this was backquite a ways ago, but it took a
(05:46):
long time to be able to havethat not be a topic of
conversation.
Anytime, I was planning to dosomething that involved a large
loan like a house or somethinglike that.
It came up and it did affect theability that I had to get the
best interest rate.
And it was one thing, michelle,you know it's like I've always
(06:06):
paid my bills.
Everything's always on time,all that kind of stuff.
So this coming up was like well.
Speaker 1 (06:11):
And I guess that's the thing it's like.
Is that really telling when youreally step outside of what you
just said?
Is that really telling of yourfinancial response?
You know how you handleyourself fiscally by that one
payment not being on there,which has an explanation, and I
(06:32):
guess that's the difference.
Prior FICO, back in the day,you would just go and you would
explain to I don't know the bankor whatever this happened,
here's the situation, et cetera,whatever.
Yeah, and they could havechanged hopefully or yeah there
was so much more on you knowbeing a person of your word.
Speaker 2 (06:51):
Well, and that's what this whole thing in china is
has originally, uh, been derivedfrom.
Is this social credit score wasa way to gauge trustworthiness,
and it's kind of extended offinto things that are not just
having to do with trust, youknow, like integrity, honesty,
(07:11):
um, sincerity.
How do you gauge some of thesethings?
Morality, these are all kind ofmore subjective things,
depending upon who you'retalking to and what their
opinion is on those sorts ofthings, you know.
Speaker 1 (07:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:24):
And all of that, obviously rolled up into one
ball, would be trustworthiness.
But I don't think.
If you're looking at it fromthat example that I gave you, I
don't see how that one situationdid the view of me being
trustworthy.
It was just a mistake that wasmade in the bank.
It was like pulling teeth toget that fixed.
Speaker 1 (07:43):
And I guess too, you have to ask yourself really like
who are these?
Speaker 2 (07:47):
bureaus Right?
Well, they have control overwhat you're able to and not able
to do unless you're using cashand we are not a cashless
society yet, and I'm not reallyan advocate for that myself.
I think it's kind of dangerousto be.
It's very convenient, don't getme wrong, but it's like there's
places already out there thatare cashless and it's like you
have to use your card foreverything.
(08:09):
Even like the Seahawks stadiumyou know, or the Mariners
stadium or something you can'tuse cash for anything there.
So I don't know I have a hardtime with that.
It's not like I use a lot ofcash anyway, but I think it's
necessary to have that abilityto be able to pay your bills,
you know, if you want to thatway.
But the problem with cash isthat the government can't keep
(08:32):
track of it.
Speaker 1 (08:33):
Well, that which is why they want a cashless society
right.
Yeah, that's why they, andthat's that's one of the things
I say, laying groundwork forthis, that those are.
That's one of the things thatwould be part of that, because
if we're a cashless society, inthese federally run institutions
(08:54):
, the banks, the government hastheir hand in it.
Speaker 2 (08:58):
We do these things are to are to measure your risk,
as a like to lend money to youor what have you, and it's like
the banks are very wellprotected, very well protected.
We've seen that through, likethe crash in 2000.
I mean, every bank wasprotected and people were
screwed.
And then you get into, you knowCOVID and all of these
(09:20):
landlords that were having, youknow people renting their places
that couldn't pay their rent orweren't paying their rent were
the ones that were screwed.
The banks weren't screwed.
So it's like the common personis the one that's really getting
the nuts and bolts of that.
But in the US it's really beenrelated to credit for the most
part, right.
So we're seeing like and we'reusing China as an example
(09:42):
because it seems to be thefurthest along, but it's
extended now into all of theseother things that have to do
with how you're viewed in thatsociety, how you're able to move
throughout that society in waysin regard to financial
situations or educationalsituations, your job.
All of those things aredirectly related to this credit
(10:05):
score that you have, and it'snot even a perfect system.
I mean, I don't know what aperfect system would look like
in that regard, but my readingand my understanding has been
that by it starting outoriginally as a communist
government thing right.
Like an overarching thing andhas gone into each province and
(10:26):
state or county, I guess youcould say, and they're able to
make their own determinations onhow they want to use the social
credit score and they'redifferent from place to place.
I think there's probably thingsthat are the same, that have to
do with, you know, finances andthings like that, but punitive
results or the benefits andthings maybe are not even the
(10:47):
same from place to place, kindof like, you know, in the United
States we have federalgovernment laws and then we have
state government laws.
It's similar to that, which Iwas kind of surprised because I
was thinking this is a communistgovernment.
How could they possibly begiving freedom to make choices
and decisions to each one ofthese?
Speaker 1 (11:05):
entities, but they're all part of the communist
government, so maybe that's whythey're having to yeah part of
the communist government, somaybe that's why Having to yeah,
I don't know.
I have a news thing from TikTokthat I found, oh yeah.
That kind of explains thesocial credit score what's going
on over in China.
Speaker 2 (11:18):
Okay, can you play it ?
Speaker 1 (11:19):
Yeah, let's just take a listen here official
intelligence to track just abouteverything.
Speaker 3 (11:25):
This note In some of China's largest cities, a
high-tech effort is underway tobust low-level offenders
jaywalkers Cameras record themgoing through intersections,
zero in on their face and thenpublicly shame them on nearby
video screens.
It's all part of the Chinesegovernment's new social credit
(11:46):
system where people's dailybehavior is monitored and rated.
Where people's daily behavioris monitored and rated, I think
it's a good thing.
This woman said it makes peoplemore honest.
But this social credit ratinggoes far beyond a traditional
credit score, which is based onyour finances.
China's version factors ineverything from jaywalking to
(12:09):
smoking on trains, to buying toomany video games.
If your score gets too low, youcan be banned from buying plane
tickets, renting a house orgetting a loan.
Nearly 15 million people havealready been prevented from
traveling.
Journalist Leo Hu is one ofthem.
He recently tried to book aflight but was told he couldn't
because he was on the list ofuntrustworthy people.
I can't buy property.
(12:31):
My child can't go to privateschool, he says.
You feel like you're beingcontrolled by the list all the
time.
Chinese technology firms suchas SenseTime are helping the
government effort by developingadvanced cameras that use
artificial intelligence to trackjust about everything.
Speaker 1 (12:48):
There you go.
Oh my gosh.
Speaker 2 (12:49):
Artificial intelligence it's coming To
track everything.
Speaker 1 (12:53):
And again, another piece of the puzzle laying
groundwork for these types ofthings, while this Trump
situation has been happening inthe news.
It kind of you know, hassilently behind the scenes taken
(13:15):
place, but he vetoed a billthat was to be passed in regard
to ESG, which is environmental,social and corporate governance
laws.
Speaker 2 (13:25):
Okay, and this was a bipartisan bill, yes, but
striking it down.
Basically, his veto was toeliminate that bill and that
bill was all related to this AIand some of the things that you
were talking about in regard togroundwork that you're seeing
kind of being laid in differentcountries.
Speaker 1 (13:44):
Yeah Right, so, yeah, so there's a lot of people
trying to push it through.
Speaker 2 (13:49):
Well, given that it was bipartisan, I find that kind
of interesting.
Speaker 1 (13:51):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:53):
Usually it's one over the other, but I mean the fact
that it was both sides wantingto participate almost equally.
Yeah, and then he vetoed it.
I find that really interesting,yeah.
Speaker 1 (14:03):
I think that you know it's taken some time over in
China to, you know, have thisevolve Probably not as difficult
there because it is a communistcountry.
I think it's going to be moreof a challenge here.
But now, when you think aboutthe last few years and all the
things that have taken place fewyears being, you know, could be
(14:24):
the last five years or evenlonger, but really the last five
when you think about some ofthe things and everything being
connected back to our cell phoneconversation, you know the
cellular phones and you think ofthe voice recognition, facial
recognition, artificialintelligence cameras are going
up everywhere here too.
Speaker 2 (14:46):
Well, in the research that I had done, there are over
200 million cameras that arethroughout China, yeah, and so I
was saying to you that that hasgot to be like a massive
database.
But I mean, obviously peopleare not watching all of these
videos, right?
Speaker 1 (15:04):
I mean, you can't yeah.
Speaker 2 (15:06):
But with AI or facial recognition, and things like
that they're able to see thisperson jaywalking and just send
them a.
Well, actually, they're noteven sending them anything,
they're just deducting.
They're just taking money out.
Speaker 1 (15:17):
That's what I mean with the cash, yeah.
Speaker 2 (15:21):
They have access to your bank account.
Speaker 1 (15:22):
Yeah, I mean the government has access to my bank
account because I do my taxesevery year just electronically.
Yeah, I do too.
Everything is Two years ago.
I had to do that.
It was really kind of creepywhen I had to set up to make
payments to the IRS.
I had to hold my phone.
(15:43):
It did this whole facialrecognition thing.
I don't know why they need allthat, but I had to do it in
order to move forward withmaking payments to the IRS.
You know, you think about theDNA bandwagon that everybody's
on and sending your DNA and andand, oh the like, the 23 and B,
yeah.
That's why you know your blood,your DNA and then all of the
(16:03):
technology groundwork that thereis being laid and everything
being connected.
And you think about thepandemic you know there was talk
of, you know for a while justkind of fear tactics, I think,
but you know, not being able tofly without a vaccine passport,
or there were things that theywere talking about then and you
know just different things.
(16:24):
But, yeah, a lot of ground workbeing laid, especially with
artificial intelligence now andyour mobile phones, your TVs,
everything is smart, everythingis smart.
Speaker 2 (16:35):
So what can we do?
I mean just as basic citizens,you know, to try and I mean some
people might not care Like wewere listening to the article or
the news article that you hadplayed and they interviewed some
woman.
And you know the translation wasI actually kind of like it
because I think it keepseverybody honest.
And as I'm listening to thathonestly, I'm going back to the
(16:59):
conversations that we had around.
I don't remember which episodeit was, but I was talking about
oh, I was talking about thePatriot Act and how, after 9-11,
the Patriot Act went into placeand people were really
concerned about their personalinformation, emails, phone, all
that kind of stuff being sharedand I was saying to myself self,
(17:20):
you know, at that time, andeven two weeks ago or three
weeks ago, I was saying, well,what's the big deal, you know,
if you're not doing anythingwrong?
And now I'm sitting herelistening to all this stuff and
I'm like, oh hell, no, I don'twant anybody.
I mean, it's not like I haveanything to hide, but I don't
want everybody having access tomy every move.
Speaker 1 (17:40):
But I think it's really creepy.
It's a manipulation type ofsystem that doesn't really make
somebody honest.
No, I think people canmanipulate the system.
You're held hostage, yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:51):
It holds you hostage, I think when it starts, when it
starts putting you in likethese socioeconomic categories,
which starts really kind ofstarting to look like a caste
system or a hierarchy system,Because along with the
socioeconomic piece of it comesall of this other stuff.
Speaker 1 (18:11):
You know where you were born, how you were raised,
what school you went to, whatkind of education you received
and if you're a part of thissocial system, like in China,
like that guy that was on thatarticle was saying yeah, his
kids aren't even allowed to goto the school he wants to send
them to, because that he canscore, that he maybe used to be
able to afford to send them to,but maybe because of the
(18:34):
blacklisting Now I mean that'swhat he said he's always feels
like he's being controlled bythe list.
Speaker 2 (18:40):
So I think where that has really started on a wide
range in China has to do withbusinesses more than people, and
so if you have a negative score, social score, as a company,
then that directly impacts whowill work with you.
It directly impacts probablywhat kind of loans, if any, that
you can receive.
It probably impacts probablywhat kind of loans, if any, that
(19:00):
you can receive.
It probably impacts a lot ofdifferent things, but those
particular business owners are,it looks like, maybe affected
personally as well.
So the whole thing aboutschooling, so that I mean it's a
lot of stuff that directlyrelates to someone's future and
what they're able to do.
So let's just say you have a 15year old kid, 14 year old kid,
(19:24):
that you want to go to someprestigious high school and they
can't go because your credits,your social credit score, is not
in the category or in the rangeor whatever.
So when that kid ends up goingto whatever school they end up
being able to go to, then whenthey get out of school and are
18, they probably start on theirown social credit score.
Speaker 1 (19:45):
I would think, I would imagine.
So they're not under theirparents anymore.
I don't know the answer to that, but I would imagine yeah, at a
certain age.
Speaker 2 (19:50):
But there comes a point in time when you're
talking about the social creditscore where, like in America,
look at how difficult it is forkids to get assistance from
their parents if their parentsmake too much money, right, even
if their parents are not ableto provide any financial support
for their education, yeah, youknow they're screwed.
I mean, look at the studentloans that we're seeing.
(20:13):
you know with people here thatthey're going into so much debt
for yeah all of those thingswould impact their social credit
score in theory, but theyreally don't have a choice if
they want to get an educationand they have no other way to be
able to afford it.
So, yeah, there's a lot ofdifferent things that impact it.
What are you kind of seeing inyour crystal ball for the United
(20:34):
States, just based oneverything that we've looked at
and talked about?
Speaker 1 (20:39):
I think that eventually we will all have I
mean, chances are that.
I don't think it's toofarfetched that we would all
have a digital identity, and Ithink that we are not far from
something maybe not the same aswhat this looks like in China,
(20:59):
but I think in some ways wealready are under the same kind
of scrutiny.
Speaker 2 (21:04):
We just don't realize it, we just don't realize it.
So when you were talking beforeabout how the groundwork's
being laid, I think you're rightwhen you and I'm not a
conspiracy theorist, I don'tlook at things that way, you
don't have to give thatdisclaimer.
Speaker 1 (21:16):
Come on now.
You give disclaimers all thetime.
Not that I'm not a conspiracytheorist, Anyways.
Speaker 2 (21:22):
yeah, because I know a lot of people prefacing all of
this by saying I'm really not,but yeah that that lends more
credence to it really in my mindbecause I'm not, but at the
same time kind of see some ofthese things happening, and I've
always been really I wouldn'tsay oblivious, but acknowledge
or just make a mental note whenI see something that I think is
odd, but I don't really delveinto it too much.
(21:44):
And this kind of stuff I thinkwill affect us or hit us without
us really realizing it.
Speaker 1 (21:51):
It's coming in different ways media if we don't
abide by certain rules andregulations on what we post or
tweets or different things likethat there is.
There's somebody, board ofpeople somewhere that decide
that it doesn't get to go out.
That's just, and YouTube too,that they've been going through
(22:14):
a lot of different, you know,for people who are labeled as a
conspiracy theorist CandaceOwens, and a lot of different
people that have platforms thatthey really speak out about a
lot of these types of things.
Speaker 2 (22:26):
And that there's the whole argument about free speech
on a lot of this, which hasalso been an argument for some
of the socials you know, likethe Twitters and the TikToks and
Instagram, facebook, all ofthem where people feel like they
should be able to say or dowhatever they want to because,
even if it's hate speech, evenif it's detrimental to another,
you know, group of people orwhatever they're saying, free
(22:48):
speech, they can do it.
And who's going to bemonitoring that?
Speaker 1 (22:51):
And so how do you, how do you feel about that?
Because that's where I wasgoing with that.
It's like they take it down.
They don't take all of it down,but they take it down and they
make them abide by certain rulesand regulations, which I know
there's got to be some of thatin place.
But like what you were justtalking about and I'm not saying
I'm for it or against, but Isthat a disclaimer?
(23:12):
Maybe?
Speaker 2 (23:14):
without saying it was .
Speaker 1 (23:15):
Not for it or against it, but as I was listening to
you and with regard to freespeech kind of going down, I was
listening to you and withregard to free speech kind of
going down, a rabbit hole here.
But with regard to free speechand a platform like YouTube not
even going to say the socials,but like YouTube why can't
people report on and talk aboutthe things that they want to
talk about?
They have their own following.
Speaker 2 (23:37):
I guess it has to do with legalities, like if it's a
legal topic, I mean if you're,if you're a Ku Klux Klan member
and you want to report on thebig festival that you had and
you know burning, I don't knowwhat they do but you know what I
mean.
Let's just say it's somethingextreme like that and it racist
and it's like hate filled andall that.
(23:57):
I mean do they have the rightto do that?
Speaker 1 (24:00):
Do they?
Speaker 2 (24:00):
I don't know.
Why don't they?
Well, that's my question.
Speaker 1 (24:03):
It's like I personally have no desire to see
or hear about any of that stuff, then you wouldn't be watching
Right, then you wouldn't begoing to that channel and
watching it.
So it's the same.
It's just like and I know Ibrought up I don't know why
because she's prettycontroversial about a lot of
topics that she addresses.
But same thing if I'm not coolwith Candace Owens and a lot of
(24:27):
the things she talks about, I'mnot headed over to her channel
to watch it.
So why does it?
I mean, do people not?
have the wherewithal to make thechoice, okay, so maybe a social
credit score would be a goodthing, based on what you just
said yeah, I don't think every.
Speaker 2 (24:38):
I think we can't generalize and put everybody in
the same bucket.
Some people have the mindsetthat they're like gosh I
wouldn't really invest any timein that and then others don't.
We are getting down a rabbithole.
There are a lot of things thatare on the internet and that are
on like the dark web.
I guess I've never been on there, but you know that are a lot of
these things we're talkingabout, like Andrew's shown me
(24:59):
videos that are just horrific,that you wouldn't see on like a
regular YouTube video.
I don't know what channelthey're on, but they're really
graphic and, you know, have todo with, like, the wars that are
going on or whatever, andthat's not anything that I would
go seek out.
But I also am kind of like isour society so effed up that we
need to allow all that stuff too?
(25:20):
So I'm really I struggle withthat because I don't think we
need to have evil people orpeople sharing evil content or
sharing evil things with peoplethat are going to perpetuate
evil acts.
Speaker 1 (25:32):
There's so much of it out there, though, jules.
Speaker 2 (25:34):
I know.
Speaker 1 (25:34):
That they mask themselves as not evil.
Speaker 2 (25:37):
Here's the thing.
What we're talking about iskind of interesting because we
have, in the United States, waymore freedom to be able to do a
lot of these things that thegovernment or whomever isn't
saying that you can't do,whereas in countries like China
you get in a shitload of troublefor doing something like that
probably right, I mean a lot oftrouble, and who?
knows, you could get thrown injail for long periods of time or
(25:59):
whatever, without a trial.
I mean, there could be a lot ofthings.
So the thought of that type ofsociety, living in that type of
society, scares me.
Yeah, me too to or have anopinion about something or go
wherever we want to go, butthere's still parameters.
Speaker 1 (26:21):
It will come in slow steps, yeah, and we'll adapt and
change, just like we have withall of technology.
Well, think about it.
Speaker 2 (26:29):
There are rules in place, like, for example, other
countries have rules in placethat if you are a convicted
felon, you can't enter theircountry.
So that's a rule, like inCanada.
Canada has that rule which Ithink is kind of funny.
Speaker 1 (26:42):
I guess Trump won't be going to Canada.
He won't be going to.
Speaker 2 (26:43):
Canada.
He'll be doing all zoom callsif he's elected.
For God's sake, oh boy, that'sa whole other deal.
Yeah, but anyway, I'm justsaying it's like there are rules
that are in place.
I mean that's why we have ajustice system.
Speaker 3 (26:55):
That's why we have you know court system.
This is not anarchy and a freefor all here.
Speaker 2 (27:00):
But where is that dividing line?
Or that delicate balance thatyou can achieve by being in that
right place but not having itcontrolled to the degree that
you're seeing it controlled inother areas.
Speaker 1 (27:13):
It's almost like they take the choice away from you.
Speaker 2 (27:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:16):
You know, I know we go back and forth.
When I talk about getting thevaccine or not getting the
vaccine, you say it's a choice.
I'm like no, they didn't haveit.
Speaker 2 (27:24):
It's a total choice.
Speaker 1 (27:25):
People didn't, but that's how I'm saying some of
this will be.
Speaker 2 (27:28):
It's like well the choice is to either get it or
the consequences are too severe.
Speaker 1 (27:33):
In this case, like you're talking about the vaccine
and, as an example, you didn'thave to get the vaccine but you
potentially could lose your job,or there are places you can't
go, and that's what I'm sayingand that's where these things
differentiate, because to me,yes, you can still choose, but
the consequences are such thatit's your livelihood just like
(27:54):
in some of these social scoresituations that we're talking
about, you can still choose.
I can still choose to be on acollege campus I'm talking about
in America, here now, if it wasin place, and you know if I'm
protesting or jaywalking anddoing a deal.
I'm making that choice, knowingwhat the consequences are, when
(28:14):
you're really feeling likeyou're just doing what is
morally right to you.
Speaker 2 (28:18):
I think when you think about during the pandemic,
it's like do you think thatthere was an option for people
to get vaccinated there in China?
Oh, I'm sure An option.
Speaker 1 (28:27):
Not no, I'm sure, I'm sure there wasn't yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:31):
No option.
I doubt there was an option.
Or if there was an option, thenagain the consequences were
severe.
But here we're just all arguingabout shit all over the place.
Nobody wants to do this.
Everybody all arguing aboutshit all over the place.
Nobody wants to do this,everybody doesn't.
I mean, it's just it's so muchdifferent.
There's parts of having onevoice that I think are valuable,
(28:52):
but it can also be superdangerous.
There's definite things thatthe only time we've ever really
come together per se as acountry and had a voice that was
very much in harmony was after9-11.
I mean, really World, world WarII after World War II is the
same thing.
So the social credit scorethere is focused on financial,
judicial, so punishment in thejudicial system.
(29:13):
Commercial meaning anti-fraud,trying to coordinate with a lot
of the companies.
So those are more companiesthat are commercial, trying to
coordinate more with companiesSocietal, supporting this moral
society, and I think that'swhere that big component comes
in of shaming.
Speaker 1 (29:30):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:30):
And the government, literally, you know, shaming
people by putting what theirindiscretion is up on a big
screen in the middle of the city, yeah, it's crazy, yeah, in
your neighborhoods.
Speaker 1 (29:41):
So letting people that you live with know that you
suck, yeah, because you didthat.
Speaker 2 (29:46):
Have you ever seen the show Handmaid's Tale?
Speaker 1 (29:48):
No, oh man.
Speaker 2 (29:50):
You got to watch that one.
I mean, it's a society that istaken over by people who are
real fundamentalists.
It's kind of dark and creepy,but people have no rights.
Speaker 1 (30:01):
Yeah, yeah I digress.
But definitely an interestingtopic.
I know when I brought it up acouple of weeks ago you hadn't
even heard of it, no.
So that's why I thought itwould be fun to just kind of
bring some of the things tolight, dive into it a little bit
, share some of the informationand make sure people know that,
just to you know, pay attentionto things that are happening and
(30:22):
what are some of theinformation and make sure people
know that, just to you know.
Pay attention to things thatare happening and what are some
of the reasons behind it.
Well, and ask questions and askquestions, and I do think a lot
of things that are happening inthe US are based on some of
these things, and it just willnot surprise me if, down the
road I'm not saying it'll belabeled as such, but I think
(30:43):
we're already like I said,there's a lot of things that are
similar to it, and especiallywith the artificial intelligence
now in play in so many facets,so many facets of what we do, in
the workplace in, just like ineverything, it's everywhere.
now it's weird because all of asudden it was kind of this, you
(31:03):
heard.
Sudden, it was kind of this,you heard about it and kind of.
Speaker 2 (31:05):
And now I can write papers for people and everything
.
Yeah, that's what.
Speaker 1 (31:07):
I'm saying it's just like it's everywhere now and
it's a thing very quickly thathappened very quickly, so I'm
going to make sure that you arenot on the blacklist, ok.
I appreciate that yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:19):
I do.
Speaker 1 (31:20):
I'll put in some recommendations for you You're
not smoking on trains and youknow, walking my dog off the
leash.
Speaker 2 (31:32):
No leash, no leash.
Speaker 1 (31:32):
Yeah, and please don't shame me on public
monitors.
Yeah, I mean I might make yousit out in the front yard with a
sign I got drunk last night.
No, I didn't, I know.
I'm just saying.
Speaker 2 (31:41):
You want to shame me?
That would be the way to do ityeah.
All right.
Well to all of you out there.
Just know that this is not asuper dark topic, but it's
definitely a topic that isimportant, probably for you to
at least be aware of.
Speaker 1 (31:53):
And I've learned a lot just preparing for it.
Interesting, Just veryinteresting.
And when you hear some of thethings it's like, wow, I know
you don't think things canhappen here, but they do.
Speaker 2 (32:02):
They do, and I think what's important to note is that
things are happening in theselittle segments that you don't
even really notice.
Speaker 1 (32:10):
Yeah, you just adjust and it's like oh, under the
guise of a specific thing andthen it's turned into something
else.
Speaker 2 (32:18):
A lot of it has to do with the manipulation of
language on different bills andthe government and stuff like
that, because then you can.
If it's more open-ended, thenit can be used for a lot of
different things.
So I don't know.
I feel like it's important tobe aware.
Speaker 1 (32:29):
I mean when we're talking.
When I was talking before, Iknow we're wrapping this up, but
it just made me think of youknow how everything's smart, and
I learned recently that your TVsmart TVs have microphones also
.
That's true, and there is asetting so you can turn off,
like where you don't want your.
You can turn the microphone upto share information also.
Oh, okay, so everything's smart.
(32:52):
Everything has microphones,everything has cameras.
Speaker 2 (32:54):
And we, no, we're not walking away.
Paranoid.
Speaker 1 (32:57):
Not at all.
But we have microphones, rightBlonde brunette and a mic here.
Yeah, we're not tied into theinternet just yet, though.
Speaker 2 (33:04):
They're just in our little Zoom recorder.
Speaker 1 (33:06):
For fun here.
So hopefully you all got someinformation that will be useful,
or just a little something thatmakes you scratch your head and
go, hmm, and educate yourselfjust a little bit more.
You can find us out on allthose socials Facebook, tiktok
and Instagram so check us outand until next time, have a
(33:28):
wonderful, wonderful week guys.
Listen to that positivity.
I was just going to say peaceout.
Speaker 2 (33:34):
Yeah that we're doing that too.
Speaker 1 (33:35):
Yeah, okay.
Speaker 2 (33:36):
Make this little thing with my fingers when I say
that.
Speaker 1 (33:38):
Yeah, so envision that Peace out.
Speaker 2 (33:40):
See you guys next week.
Speaker 1 (33:41):
All right, everybody Bye, bye, outro Music.
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